Speaker 1: Pushkin. What about.
Speaker 2: Too Many People?
Speaker 3: Two or eight People is on an album called Ram.
Speaker 3: It was at a time when John was firing missiles
Speaker 3: at me. I don't know what he hoped again, other
Speaker 3: than punching me in the face. And this kind of
Speaker 3: annoyed me. Obviously, I suddenly decided to turn my missiles
Speaker 3: on him.
Speaker 4: I'm Paul, will do And I've been fortunate to spend
Speaker 4: time with one of the greatest songwriters of the era.
Speaker 1: And will you look at me? I'm going on to
Speaker 1: I'm actually a.
Speaker 4: Performer, That is sir Paul McCartney. We worked together on
Speaker 4: a book looking at the lis of more than one
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty of his songs, and we recorded many
Speaker 4: hours of our conversations.
Speaker 1: Oh she'm a songwriter? My god? Well that that crypture, homie.
Speaker 4: This is McCartney, A life in lyrics, a masterclass, a memoir,
Speaker 4: and an improvised journey with one of the most iconic
Speaker 4: figures in popular music. In this episode Too Many People.
Speaker 2: That was you?
Speaker 4: You do Uman?
Speaker 2: Now for you?
Speaker 4: You who broke up the Beatles? Was it Paul McCartney
Speaker 4: or was it John Lennon? Was it the death of
Speaker 4: manager Brian Epstein? The interference of businessman Alan Klein, or
Speaker 4: somehow the mere presence of yogo Ono. No matter how
Speaker 4: many times this question has been asked, trying to answer
Speaker 4: it seems futile. There are many reasons why the Beatles
Speaker 4: broke up, So in this episode we won't be trying
Speaker 4: to find a definitive cause for the Beatles breakup. Instead,
Speaker 4: we will be telling the story of its aftermath.
Speaker 3: I was keeping largely quiet about John and the Beatles
Speaker 3: sort of split up. I didn't really have many accusations
Speaker 3: to fling, but he was flinging quite a few.
Speaker 1: Being John, they.
Speaker 3: Were quite hurtful bobs to be flinging around, and I
Speaker 3: was the body they were being flung as.
Speaker 1: So I was having to accept this.
Speaker 4: But in nineteen sixty nine business meeting, John Lennon made
Speaker 4: an announcement.
Speaker 3: There was a few of us there, and he said, oh,
Speaker 3: I've been wanting to tell you this, but I'm leaving
Speaker 3: the Beatles. Well a bit shocked, it was, you know, me,
Speaker 3: George and Ringo, we're all a bit shocked.
Speaker 1: Why why why? And I don't think I've told you.
Speaker 1: I remember him saying, oh, this is quite quite exciting.
Speaker 1: You know that was very John.
Speaker 3: That was sort of what you admired about John. It
Speaker 3: was it was a bit of a looney in the
Speaker 3: nicest possible way.
Speaker 2: It was like breaking up with someone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what he said.
Speaker 3: It's like a divorce, and he had just had a divorce,
Speaker 3: so he was saying, yeah, you know, there's an excitement
Speaker 3: to this. And I think obviously we whilst all of
Speaker 3: us could see what he meant, those of you left
Speaker 3: in the opposite side of the borderline.
Speaker 1: It's not quite so funny.
Speaker 4: When John Lennon announced his departure from the group, it
Speaker 4: was clear to the other three Beatles that the band
Speaker 4: was done for good.
Speaker 3: It was such a unit, such a foursome, and I
Speaker 3: don't think any of us, I mean, we joked about it,
Speaker 3: you know, we joked about forming a group called the Thrietles.
Speaker 1: That was pretty good, but you know, it was never
Speaker 1: anything more than the joke.
Speaker 4: In that same meeting where John Lennon announced he was
Speaker 4: leaving the group, he also told his band Meds that
Speaker 4: he was set to go along with the manager Alan Klein.
Speaker 4: McCartney was resistant to trusting Alan Klein, who was already
Speaker 4: known for his mishandling of the Rolling Stones.
Speaker 3: The whole story in an absolute nutshell because we were
Speaker 3: having a group meeting and John appeared at it and
Speaker 3: he said, I've just been to see this guy Alan
Speaker 3: Klein in the Dorchester me and Yoko. He's promised Joko
Speaker 3: an exhibition up in Syracuse, and I think this guy's great.
Speaker 3: Oh and by the way, I'm leaving the group. So
Speaker 3: that was basically how all of that happened. And it
Speaker 3: was looking like Alan Klein would have because it was
Speaker 3: three to one.
Speaker 1: The other two went with John.
Speaker 3: So it's looking like Alan Klein was going to own
Speaker 3: our entire Beatle empire, which is an idea that I
Speaker 3: was not too keen on. I just thought, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: I know, this guy has got such a bad reputation,
Speaker 3: and good old John Johnny goes, oh, if he's that
Speaker 3: badly talked about, he can't.
Speaker 1: Be all bad, you know.
Speaker 3: To John, there was this kind of distorted way of thinking.
Speaker 4: What followed was a series of lawsuits between McCartney and
Speaker 4: the rest of the band over who would control the
Speaker 4: rights to their music.
Speaker 1: So all in all I had to I had to
Speaker 1: fight them for.
Speaker 3: My bit of the Beatles, and in actual fact for
Speaker 3: their bit of the Beatles, which many years later they
Speaker 3: kind of you know, realized, realized that almost.
Speaker 1: Thanked me for.
Speaker 3: And nowadays, you know, people get it, they get it,
Speaker 3: and but as I had to fight them, I think
Speaker 3: they thought, oh, you know, and felt they were the
Speaker 3: ones who were being hurt by this. But the hurt
Speaker 3: that went down during that period though, was them feeling hurt,
Speaker 3: me feeling hurt. But John being John, John would be
Speaker 3: the one who would want to write a hurtful song,
Speaker 3: so was his kind of bag.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I don't believe in pizzas.
Speaker 4: I just believe in me. In his nineteen seventy song God,
Speaker 4: Lennon announced the end of the Beatles dream dream is over?
Speaker 1: What can I say?
Speaker 4: And to publicize the release of his new album, he
Speaker 4: was interviewed by Rolling Stone fonder and publisher Yan Winner.
Speaker 5: I no longer believe in in myth, you know, and
Speaker 5: Beatles is another myth, you know, I don't believe in it.
Speaker 5: The dream's over, you know. And I'm not just talking
Speaker 5: about the Beatles as though I'm talking about the generation thing.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 5: The dreams over, like it's over, you know, and we
Speaker 5: got to well, I have AnyWho personally got to get
Speaker 5: down to so called reality.
Speaker 3: John would do it in some of the songs. He
Speaker 3: was writing some of the comments about how the Beatles
Speaker 3: did nothing.
Speaker 1: It was rubbish, The Beatles was crap. And you know,
Speaker 1: I told you Yoko Saint Paul never did anything. All
Speaker 1: he did was book the studio it.
Speaker 5: So it looks so awful when I said I don't
Speaker 5: like this and I don't like that, it's just that
Speaker 5: I wouldn't you know. I don't like many of the
Speaker 5: Beatles records either. You know, my own taste is different
Speaker 5: from that which I've played sometimes, which is called cop out,
Speaker 5: you know, to make money or whatever, or because I
Speaker 5: didn't know any better.
Speaker 3: So I'm having to read all this stuff and there
Speaker 3: one hand, I go, oh, fuck off, your fucking idiot.
Speaker 1: And that's my main sentiment.
Speaker 3: But on the other hand, it's like, what why would
Speaker 3: you say that? Why would you want to be? What
Speaker 3: is it about me?
Speaker 1: Like you're annoyed me, or you're jealous or what is it?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 3: And John had all of those emotions wrapped up into
Speaker 3: a ball of lenon.
Speaker 1: Is that.
Speaker 4: In too many people. His nineteen seventies version of a
Speaker 4: disc track, McCartney made a veiled response to Lennon's harsh comments.
Speaker 3: I meant, I mean literally people sort of grabbing for
Speaker 3: a piece of the cake, a slice.
Speaker 2: Piece of the pie, also the apple.
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. Yeah. So I think that because it had
Speaker 1: all been.
Speaker 3: Just a little bit weird and a bit nasty, I
Speaker 3: was just basically saying, let's be sensible, let's be peaceful.
Speaker 3: Let's you know, we we've we had a lot going
Speaker 3: and what's actually split us up.
Speaker 1: Is the business stuff.
Speaker 3: That's pretty pathetic really, so let's try and be peaceful.
Speaker 2: People many weird and lucky.
Speaker 3: I think it was quite mild, but the idea of
Speaker 3: too many people preaching practices.
Speaker 1: Was aimed at him and yoga telling everyone what they
Speaker 1: ought to do.
Speaker 3: You should do this, should do that. And I just
Speaker 3: got fed up being told what to do. So I
Speaker 3: wrote the song and it was you made your first mistake,
Speaker 3: you know, you took your lucky break and broke it
Speaker 3: in two. It was me basically saying, you've made this break.
Speaker 1: So good luck with it. But I say it was
Speaker 1: pretty mild. I didn't really come out with any savagery.
Speaker 3: The first person and the chorus was Basically that was
Speaker 3: all the anger I could muster, and when I did
Speaker 3: the vocal one of the second line, too many reaching
Speaker 3: for a piece of cake. I remember singing it, and
Speaker 3: if you listen to it, it says, piss off cake,
Speaker 3: too many people reaching for a piss off cake.
Speaker 2: Many reading.
Speaker 1: I was just getting back at him, but I wasn't
Speaker 1: really in it.
Speaker 2: Many weird Lucky.
Speaker 4: Despite the mild nature of the insults in too Many People,
Speaker 4: Lennon was fired up and responded with the song how
Speaker 4: do You Sleep on his nineteen seventy one album Imagine.
Speaker 3: It's Yes.
Speaker 1: I understand some of the stuff he was doing.
Speaker 3: He actually had Alan Klein and Yogo in the room
Speaker 3: suggesting lyrics. So all you ever did was yesterday? My
Speaker 3: parently was Alan Clein's suggestion, wow, So John m Hey, hey,
Speaker 3: great put that in and I can see the joy
Speaker 3: in the fun and the laughs they had doing it.
Speaker 3: But I've got to work very hard to not take
Speaker 3: this too seriously. But in the back of my mind,
Speaker 3: I'm going win a minute. All I ever did was yesterday. Yeah, well,
Speaker 3: it's funny, it's funny pun But all I ever did
Speaker 3: was yesterday. Let him be long winning Road. Elean repe
Speaker 3: Lady Madonna, fuck you John.
Speaker 1: Too many people sharing party lines.
Speaker 3: I don't know what that means except people used to
Speaker 3: have party lines and you coming on their conversations.
Speaker 2: But the party line of Paul is also tolling the
Speaker 2: party line. You know, this is our position here, and
Speaker 2: now we're fixed in that position.
Speaker 3: Basically, all of these things were just whether they were
Speaker 3: actually physically right, whether John and Joko slept in late
Speaker 3: or not. Yeah, they were all veiled references people thinking
Speaker 3: that the only truth is their own truth, which is
Speaker 3: what was coming from John and Yoko.
Speaker 1: And you know the thing is it was crap. War
Speaker 1: is over. Well, no it isn't.
Speaker 3: But I get what you're saying. War is over if
Speaker 3: you want it. So if enough people want war to
Speaker 3: be over, it'll be over. I'm not sure that's entirely true,
Speaker 3: but it's a great sentiment. It's a nice thing to
Speaker 3: think and to say. I'd been able to accept Yoko
Speaker 3: in the studio on a blanket in front of my amp.
Speaker 3: I worked hard to come to terms with that, but
Speaker 3: then when we broke up and everyone was now flailing around,
Speaker 3: John turned nasty.
Speaker 1: So this is me sort of saying shut up.
Speaker 2: Really, you know, that's a song that has a particular purpose.
Speaker 1: Too many people. Yeah, for better or worse?
Speaker 2: It is, you know, getting back. That's really a feature
Speaker 2: of your songs.
Speaker 1: Match, is it? No, I don't do that much. And Jesus.
Speaker 4: Well, McCartney's lyrics were more often about love than competition.
Speaker 4: He and Lennon both wrote many songs with the intention
Speaker 4: of impressing or even upstaging one another.
Speaker 3: That was the nature of all competitiveness, and we were
Speaker 3: both very upfront about that. You know, if you'd write
Speaker 3: a good one, I'd feel like that to write a
Speaker 3: better one.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: That is a very very common phenomenon and very understandable one.
Speaker 3: It's also a great thing because it's inspiration, you know,
Speaker 3: it's it's motivation. If you've got someone who you respect
Speaker 3: who comes up with something rather good.
Speaker 1: Sure it happens to everyone totally. You know, you'll suddenly
Speaker 1: see so and so's new poem and think, hmm.
Speaker 3: You don't necessarily have to tell anyone no, but in
Speaker 3: your own private mind you just think, well, I could
Speaker 3: do that.
Speaker 4: There's no doubt this friendly competition contributed to the beatles
Speaker 4: prolific output after the band's disintegration. However, the competition between
Speaker 4: McCartney and Lennon was no longer about who could write
Speaker 4: a more catchy chorus or skillful bridge. It was about
Speaker 4: who could fling the most hurt Here again is how
Speaker 4: do you sleep?
Speaker 3: Those e.
Speaker 2: Missake?
Speaker 3: You got to remember I sued him in court. I
Speaker 3: sued my friends from Liverpool Lifeline friends in court. So
Speaker 3: there's a lot of getting over that has had to
Speaker 3: be done.
Speaker 4: As much as too many people represented McCartney on the attack,
Speaker 4: it wasn't aligned with his natural disposition. Six months later,
Speaker 4: he made an attempt at appeasement in Dear Friend, a
Speaker 4: song from his nineteen seventy one album Wildlife.
Speaker 1: Dear Friend, what's the time?
Speaker 2: Is this really the boer?
Speaker 1: Do it really.
Speaker 2: Mean so much to you?
Speaker 1: I mean, why is this argument going on? You're afraid?
Speaker 1: Is it because you're afraid of something? Oh?
Speaker 3: Is it true?
Speaker 1: You're afraid of the split up? Are you afraid of
Speaker 1: me doing something without you?
Speaker 2: Dear friend? Through the word I'm in love with a
Speaker 2: friend of mine?
Speaker 1: Are you afraid of the consequences of this?
Speaker 2: Who knows newly?
Speaker 1: And then the little rhyme is or is it true?
Speaker 1: You know, is it true? It's all these hurtful allegations true? Ah,
Speaker 1: is it true?
Speaker 4: I was aware of the McCartney Lenin feud as it
Speaker 4: was happening, and I heard these very public arguments in
Speaker 4: the songs. But I've always wondered if there was indeed
Speaker 4: a form of reconciliation. Did Lenin ever listen to Dear Friend?
Speaker 1: I would think he did.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would think he listened to my records, you know,
Speaker 3: when they came out.
Speaker 2: Did he ever respond to this in particular?
Speaker 1: No? No, that was not his way.
Speaker 3: You know, we were guys, and it's not it's not
Speaker 3: like a boy and girl. It's like it's a guy
Speaker 3: and guy.
Speaker 1: It's a boy and boy. And you don't, you know,
Speaker 1: you don't.
Speaker 3: Those days, you didn't release as much emotion with each other, did.
Speaker 1: What's the time?
Speaker 4: Even if Lennon never explicitly addressed McCartney's olive branch, the
Speaker 4: two did find their way back to one another.
Speaker 1: Means so much.
Speaker 4: Some years later, Lennon even admitted that the anger and
Speaker 4: lyrical attacks and songs like how Do You Sleep were
Speaker 4: directed more towards himself than towards McCartney. Eventually they were
Speaker 4: able to put the hurt and negative feelings behind them
Speaker 4: and moved forward with their friendship.
Speaker 3: It was super, super painful, and there was a lot
Speaker 3: of navigation of emotions to be done, a lot of
Speaker 3: hurt to be sailed around, but we did it, and
Speaker 3: you know, in the end, there was something I was
Speaker 3: very glad of when he got murdered, was that I
Speaker 3: had had some really good times with him before that happened.
Speaker 2: Here.
Speaker 3: It would have been the worst thing in the world
Speaker 3: for someone like me. Had he'd just been killed and
Speaker 3: we still had bad relationship, I would have just thought, Oh,
Speaker 3: I should have, I should have, I should have, I
Speaker 3: should have. That would have been a big guilt trip
Speaker 3: for me. Not you know, we were friendly and we
Speaker 3: talked about how to bake bread.
Speaker 4: It seems like Paul McCartney's adoration for his childhood friend
Speaker 4: has only deepened over time. In twenty twenty two, on
Speaker 4: his Got Back tour, McCartney surprised his audience by bringing
Speaker 4: Lennon back on stage. Turning away from the crowd, he
Speaker 4: looked up at a video of his old friend projected
Speaker 4: on a giant screen behind him, and together they sang,
Speaker 4: I've got a feeling their contrasting voices washing over the crowd.
Speaker 4: The two Beatles again joined in a musical conversation again
Speaker 4: in the next episode, When I get to the bottom,
Speaker 4: I go back to the top of the slide, where stop.
Speaker 2: Till I get to the.
Speaker 4: All an innocent carnival ride gave birth to heavy metal.
Speaker 1: Do you don't coming down?
Speaker 3: Tell me?
Speaker 1: Tell me.
Speaker 4: McCartney. A Life in Lyrics is a co production between
Speaker 4: iHeartMedia n p L. And Pushkin Industries.