Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Doctor Joy Harden Bradford, a
Speaker 1: licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to
Speaker 1: find a therapist in your area, visit our website at
Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love
Speaker 1: listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not
Speaker 1: meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a
Speaker 1: licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for
Speaker 1: joining me for another TVG library episodes. We'll get right
Speaker 1: into our conversation after a word from our sponsors introducing
Speaker 1: our new Therapy for Black Girls Holiday gift collection. Our
Speaker 1: new ensemble of drinkwaar totes, journals and sweaters were made
Speaker 1: to remind you of the importance of centering your mental health.
Speaker 1: Purchase your TVG gifts at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
Speaker 1: slash shop. Happy holidays, y'all, remember to take good care
Speaker 1: and give good gifts. We know y'all love good books
Speaker 1: to add to your bookshelf. And this week we're back
Speaker 1: with another selection. Today, I'm joined by Jamila Souffran to
Speaker 1: hear all about her new book, Your Journey to Financial Freedom,
Speaker 1: a step by step guide to achieving wealth and happiness.
Speaker 1: During our conversation, Jamila and I chatted about how our
Speaker 1: relationship with money is impacted by our childhoods, the five
Speaker 1: stages toward financial independence that she outlines in the book,
Speaker 1: how financial planning can contribute to our mental wellness, and
Speaker 1: how she made the decision to expand the work she
Speaker 1: started with the Journey to Launch podcast to write the book.
Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please
Speaker 1: share with us using the hashtag TBG in session. Here's
Speaker 1: our conversation. Thank you so much for joining me today, Jamla.
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to have you here on Therapy for
Speaker 1: Black Girls.
Speaker 2: Doctor Joyet. Is an honor to be here, so thank
Speaker 2: you for having me.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, we had a chance to chat for Journey
Speaker 1: to Launch a couple of years ago with our other
Speaker 1: sisters in podcasting, so it's glad.
Speaker 3: To have you here.
Speaker 1: So I want to hear a little bit of the
Speaker 1: community who may not know how did you actually get
Speaker 1: started in the financial independence space?
Speaker 2: Yes, I got started out of necessity. I needed to
Speaker 2: find a way out of my current situation. So I
Speaker 2: was in my early thirties commuting from Brooklyn to New Jersey,
Speaker 2: and I had a really hard commute. It was an
Speaker 2: hour and a half each way, and I was pregnant
Speaker 2: with my first son. And while I was dealing with
Speaker 2: that for almost ten years, at that point, that commute
Speaker 2: and that grind going to work and I almost like
Speaker 2: just said, this is my life.
Speaker 3: I have to deal with it.
Speaker 2: But being pregnant and the commute taking double the amount
Speaker 2: of time this one night to get home, I said
Speaker 2: to myself, I cannot do this like this cannot be
Speaker 2: my life. I had all these dreams and aspirations of
Speaker 2: being free and not being tied to a cubicle or
Speaker 2: having a boss in my twenties. I thought big like
Speaker 2: that and didn't know how to make that come true.
Speaker 2: And I realized that I was stuck in this job,
Speaker 2: stuck in this commute, and money was the reason for that.
Speaker 2: I needed money to survive. I wanted to grow my family,
Speaker 2: and I just didn't know how I could do that
Speaker 2: without being rich, without having married rich, which wasn't the
Speaker 2: case my husband is a teacher without coming from myny
Speaker 2: It didn't come from money or without building a big
Speaker 2: business or winning the lottery.
Speaker 3: None of those things were happening.
Speaker 2: And so I googled when I got home and at work,
Speaker 2: how to quit my job, how to retire early, all
Speaker 2: these things.
Speaker 3: I didn't know what I would find, but I'm sure
Speaker 3: a lot.
Speaker 2: Of you know listeners can to agree or remember moments
Speaker 2: like that. And I found out about the fire movement,
Speaker 2: the financial independence retire early movement, which was sharing all
Speaker 2: these stories about regular people investing and saving their way
Speaker 2: to freedom. And it would take some time, depending on
Speaker 2: their income and what they.
Speaker 3: Were able to do.
Speaker 2: But I was inspired by hearing those stories, reading those stories,
Speaker 2: and said, I'm going to pursue financial independence for myself.
Speaker 1: So one of the things that I really loved about
Speaker 1: the book, Jamila, is that you talk a lot about
Speaker 1: how your mother's experience and your early childhood experiences really
Speaker 1: impacted and informed your relationship with money. Can you share
Speaker 1: a little bit about that story and talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about how our relationship with money is actually formed?
Speaker 2: Well, So we are, I like to s say, unmolded clay.
Speaker 2: When we are born into this world, and then there
Speaker 2: began to be hands that molded and those hands are
Speaker 2: our family, our culture, or upbringing, our surroundings. And so
Speaker 2: for me, I think being raised by a single mom
Speaker 2: who was only twenty when she had me, who we
Speaker 2: were born in Jamaica, so she's Jamaican and I was
Speaker 2: born in Jamaica. But like many immigrants, she had this
Speaker 2: opportunity to come to the United States, but she had
Speaker 2: to leave me behind because my papers weren't in at
Speaker 2: the time when her papers came in. And she made
Speaker 2: this bold move at twenty years old to do that,
Speaker 2: to come to a country she's never been, and literally
Speaker 2: worked her way from the bottom up in terms of
Speaker 2: she didn't have her education, but she got her associates,
Speaker 2: the bachelors and masters. And I was able to join
Speaker 2: her just under two years old after she left me
Speaker 2: for a few months, and I was always with her
Speaker 2: because she couldn't really afford childcare. And I just remember
Speaker 2: watching her and she didn't teach me money lessons, but
Speaker 2: it was imprinted on me how hard she worked and
Speaker 2: how much she strived for a better life, and how
Speaker 2: money was important in order to have a better life
Speaker 2: and education. Education was another thing that she instilled in me.
Speaker 2: And so I saw her working her way up through
Speaker 2: education through her jobs and realized that if I wanted
Speaker 2: to have some independence and to have stability, I needed
Speaker 2: to have money. And so I focused on education growing up.
Speaker 2: And then I also got my first job at fourteen
Speaker 2: years old and have been working ever since. And those
Speaker 2: were the things she instilled in me by watching her.
Speaker 2: And saving money again, I think as immigrant or people
Speaker 2: who don't have a lot of money, it's necessary to
Speaker 2: be able to save something from the dollar you make.
Speaker 2: And that stayed with me up until I graduated college.
Speaker 2: And it was actually saving money that put me in
Speaker 2: the position to do some of the things that I've
Speaker 2: done so far. But it was learning how to invest
Speaker 2: money and learning about compounding interest and business that allowed
Speaker 2: me to really take my journey to the next level.
Speaker 1: And what would you say about how other peop people's
Speaker 1: relationship with money is formed? Like what kinds of things
Speaker 1: might we even look to in our own past to
Speaker 1: talk about how we think about money?
Speaker 2: Right, so we can look at it as was money
Speaker 2: discussed growing up or avoided in your household? Was it
Speaker 2: something that triggered arguments or something that people ignored right,
Speaker 2: And I think if you can look to how your
Speaker 2: parents or your family viewed money, how they handled money
Speaker 2: or the lack of handling money, whether you saw it
Speaker 2: or not, but it informed your surroundings, how comfortable you.
Speaker 3: Were or not, then that usually.
Speaker 2: Leaves an imprint on how we deal with money, whether
Speaker 2: we avoided or if we lean into it. I talk
Speaker 2: about being a saver a lot in my early years
Speaker 2: and how that helped me so much, But in some
Speaker 2: areas of my life I've seen how it's actually not
Speaker 2: as helpful to have a saver's mindset where I don't
Speaker 2: lean into spending what I have in order to enjoy myself.
Speaker 3: I've since learned to let that go.
Speaker 2: But you know, if you grew up where you didn't
Speaker 2: have a lot of money and you had to save
Speaker 2: every penny, you can either grow up to simulate that
Speaker 2: even if you have stability or feel like you are
Speaker 2: almost pushing against that and saying I'm going to enjoy
Speaker 2: my money, even if it's at a detriment to your
Speaker 2: current financial situation. So I always talk about the journey
Speaker 2: to financial independence is an outward one in many respects,
Speaker 2: because you have to do all these things, you know,
Speaker 2: earn money, optimize your expenses, invest save, But it's really
Speaker 2: an internal journey. Honestly, it's like the mindset, it's the habits.
Speaker 2: It's uncovering why we handle money or avoid money in
Speaker 2: the ways that we do.
Speaker 1: So do you have any suggestions for those of us?
Speaker 1: I know you're a mom, I'm a mom for people
Speaker 1: who are parents or caretaking or caregiving for children, what
Speaker 1: kinds of things can we do to instill like good
Speaker 1: money habits and like people being comfortable with money even
Speaker 1: as children.
Speaker 2: I think talking about money is important with your family.
Speaker 2: And if you grew up in a culture or an
Speaker 2: environment where you didn't like the young people couldn't ask
Speaker 2: questions or you know, you couldn't talk about salary, which
Speaker 2: I understand because you know, little kids, they have a
Speaker 2: tendency to share too much information with the outside world.
Speaker 2: But you know, growing up and allowing your children to
Speaker 2: discuss money, so my kids they'll be like, how much
Speaker 2: money do you make?
Speaker 3: Or how much money do we have?
Speaker 2: And that might sometimes feel like, wait a second, that's
Speaker 2: initially that's none of your business. I know that a
Speaker 2: lot of older people in my family told me that
Speaker 2: a lot. But with my family, with my kids, it
Speaker 2: is their business. They need to understand that the money
Speaker 2: or the things they ask for there is a trade
Speaker 2: off in order to be able to give them that,
Speaker 2: and so I don't do it from a place of
Speaker 2: lack or scarcity.
Speaker 3: I try not to.
Speaker 2: So it's not that I can't get this because I
Speaker 2: don't have the money, it's I am not buying that
Speaker 2: for you because that's not something that we are prioritizing
Speaker 2: right now, or if we do that, we cannot do
Speaker 2: this because we are working towards dis goal as a family.
Speaker 2: So I think it's being open and honest that it's
Speaker 2: not necessarily that you are broke, like even if you
Speaker 2: don't have a lot of money at the moment or
Speaker 2: in the time that your child is asking you about something,
Speaker 2: but explaining we have money, but it's for this reason.
Speaker 2: It's to pay our rent or mortgage, and having those
Speaker 2: open conversations. The other thing I think is really important
Speaker 2: for kids is that we live in a society now
Speaker 2: everything's instant. Money is invisible a lot to them because
Speaker 2: they don't see it where they don't really handle it
Speaker 2: as much as we did growing up because just order
Speaker 2: it online with the click of a button, or you know,
Speaker 2: nowadays you could just hold your phone over at the
Speaker 2: register to pay for an item. And so if your
Speaker 2: kids are watching, everything just seems, oh, like it's magic.
Speaker 2: You know what money like this is it's infinite, and
Speaker 2: you do want them to have a sense of that
Speaker 2: abundance when it comes to money. But realizing that a
Speaker 2: lot of them don't touch it, don't see it, don't
Speaker 2: understand the value of a dollar, and start talking to
Speaker 2: them about that is really important. And you can do
Speaker 2: it as early as you want. It's never too early
Speaker 2: to start or too late. That's the other thing I
Speaker 2: get from parents, where all right, that's fine for maybe
Speaker 2: kids under time, but my kids is already sixteen and
Speaker 2: we never had these conversations. I'm like, it's never too
Speaker 2: late to start and open up those communication lines.
Speaker 1: You know. That is so funny to me, Like I
Speaker 1: had never thought about that. But you know, my son
Speaker 1: will often want to like use the phone to pay,
Speaker 1: like when we're in the store, right, and it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is like a thing for them to do. But
Speaker 1: I hadn't even thought about connecting that to the fact
Speaker 1: that they don't really see money until it's like time
Speaker 1: for the tooth theory, or like if their grandparents give
Speaker 1: them money. So would you suggest we start like actually
Speaker 1: getting them more familiar with having actual cash and coins.
Speaker 2: Yes, so this takes a bit of planning, but not really.
Speaker 2: I actually got this suggestion from someone else because I
Speaker 2: was struggling with the whole allowance and having enough cash
Speaker 2: on hand to give it to them, and they were like,
Speaker 2: just go to the bank and take out you know,
Speaker 2: whatever amount of money, let's say it's one hundred or
Speaker 2: fifty dollars, and put it in singles or small denominations
Speaker 2: so you have it on hand.
Speaker 3: For the month or moving forward.
Speaker 2: So you don't have to go to the every week
Speaker 2: or every day, but you take out a summer money
Speaker 2: it's singles, and then you're able to divvy out to
Speaker 2: your kids the singles or money so they have it
Speaker 2: and they can touch it and feel it and save
Speaker 2: up for it in their own way.
Speaker 3: The other advice I would give is that you know,
Speaker 3: kids just like us.
Speaker 2: When it came time for me to invest in my
Speaker 2: early twenties, when they came to me and I got
Speaker 2: my job and they said, you.
Speaker 3: Know, you're four, oh, one K, you should contribute to it.
Speaker 2: I was like, why, you know who cares about like
Speaker 2: the six year old Jamila, I want my money now.
Speaker 2: And kids they're just the same. So when we talk
Speaker 2: about money and trying to really give them these lessons,
Speaker 2: sometimes they don't want to hear it in the way
Speaker 2: we relate it because it's not interesting to them. But
Speaker 2: you know what's interesting to my kids pokemons and Roebucks
Speaker 2: and so all these things that they care about that now.
Speaker 2: My son just asked me the other day can I
Speaker 2: buy him skins or something on for Fortnite? And he
Speaker 2: just got money from his aunt and I said, well, okay,
Speaker 2: I can take that money you got from your aunt.
Speaker 3: That's how much it will cost.
Speaker 2: I was like, but you know, you said you want
Speaker 2: a Pokemon cards and so I can spend twenty dollars
Speaker 2: on this, or we can save up to get that
Speaker 2: big Pokemon pack that you want, and so talking about
Speaker 2: it in.
Speaker 3: That way, he was like, oh, and he thought twice.
Speaker 2: Instead of just saying I'm just gonna spend it, he
Speaker 2: thought twice about which one he valued more, And if
Speaker 2: you wanted to save up for something bigger or use
Speaker 2: it in the moment.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that. Thank you for those tips.
Speaker 1: I'll definitely be trying to practice some of that with
Speaker 1: my own little ones. So you already have a wildly
Speaker 1: successful podcast journey to launch, and now you have launched
Speaker 1: your first book. What let you know that it was
Speaker 1: time to expand the journey to launch universe with a book?
Speaker 2: Oh, I love that the universe?
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: Well, honestly, I always knew that I would want to
Speaker 2: write a book one day. I had these dreams as
Speaker 2: a child, and typically as we get older, we get busy,
Speaker 2: we get just we're not as focused. And when I
Speaker 2: started the podcast, I didn't understand or know the impact
Speaker 2: it would have on listeners or journeyers as I would
Speaker 2: call them, people on this financial independence journey with me.
Speaker 2: And I also realize that not everyone listens to podcasts,
Speaker 2: you know, doctor Jory, that you will still meet people
Speaker 2: and they're like a what, Like how do I listen?
Speaker 2: And I just knew that if I could impact people
Speaker 2: with just my voice and just the podcasts, that there
Speaker 2: was a bigger audience to reach and a deeper connection
Speaker 2: to be made with the book because people will come
Speaker 2: to me and say, what is financial independence? Or how
Speaker 2: is this different from you know, general personal finance, And
Speaker 2: you know, like I could direct them to the episode,
Speaker 2: but now I can direct them to a book that
Speaker 2: literally maps out and answers all those questions in one place.
Speaker 2: And so I just thought it was a great vertical
Speaker 2: and a different source of media for people to consume,
Speaker 2: whether you listen to.
Speaker 3: Podcasts or not.
Speaker 2: That I hope that people could fall in love with
Speaker 2: or a new audience could discover me and learn about
Speaker 2: this journey that so many people don't understand.
Speaker 1: M And I think it would be great for that.
Speaker 1: It definitely would be great, And I'm curious to see
Speaker 1: how it impacts like people listening to the podcast or
Speaker 1: then your podcast listeners then going to grab the book
Speaker 1: for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like that relationship with you know, Chicken Our Egg,
Speaker 2: And you know, you'll get people who maybe never heard
Speaker 2: of the podcast, but now they read the book and
Speaker 2: they listen.
Speaker 3: So I'm excited. I'm excited for that.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So, in the book,
Speaker 1: you outline five journeyer stages that the reader will travel
Speaker 1: on their road to financial independence. Can you share what
Speaker 1: those stages are for us? In the hallmarks of each
Speaker 1: of those stages.
Speaker 2: Yes, So when I first discovered financial independence, and just
Speaker 2: to give a quick definition, it is this idea or
Speaker 2: the place in which you no longer have to actively
Speaker 2: work because you have enough investments or passive income to
Speaker 2: pay for your expenses and your lifestyle. Work becomes an option.
Speaker 2: You can choose to retire early or.
Speaker 3: Continue what you're doing.
Speaker 2: When I first heard that, I was like, sign me up,
Speaker 2: how do I accomplish that so I can really be
Speaker 2: in control of my life. But then I also realized
Speaker 2: that while I was very ambitious and I started on
Speaker 2: the journey right away, that so many people, depending on
Speaker 2: their starting point, get tripped up. And so I broke
Speaker 2: out the financial independence journey because it's a marathon into
Speaker 2: these sprints, these smaller sprints, to help encourage people no
Speaker 2: matter where they start, that they can move ahead in
Speaker 2: the sprints. So the first stage is called the explorer stage.
Speaker 2: It's about getting to financial stability. So in this stage,
Speaker 2: someone may not be able to pay for their living
Speaker 2: expenses or their minimum debt payments without going into the
Speaker 2: red every month or putting things on a credit card.
Speaker 3: And so their mission in.
Speaker 2: This stage is just to get to stability, be financially stable,
Speaker 2: to be able to pay their expenses. When you're able
Speaker 2: to do that, you move on to the second stage
Speaker 2: of the journey, which is called the cadet journey or stage,
Speaker 2: and that is where you're focused on paying off debt.
Speaker 2: And this is consumer that I'm considering in this stage,
Speaker 2: not a mortgage, not student loans, just because those balances
Speaker 2: can be enormous, and so we're forocusing more on high
Speaker 2: interest rate consumer debt that you're working to pay off
Speaker 2: in this stage.
Speaker 3: Once you pay off that consumer debt, you can move.
Speaker 2: To stage three, which is called the aviator stage. That
Speaker 2: is where you are working on building financial security so
Speaker 2: you no longer have the debt payments that you have
Speaker 2: for your high interest rate debt, so you can focus
Speaker 2: on investing and saving more and building up your assets.
Speaker 2: Once you have reached a level of security, and for
Speaker 2: everyone it's going to be different, you can move to
Speaker 2: the fort stage, which is the commander stage. That is
Speaker 2: where you have reached work flexibility. That is the stage
Speaker 2: I'm currently in right now. So it's not that I
Speaker 2: never have to work ever again, but I'm in a
Speaker 2: position where I left my job. I could take a
Speaker 2: break from journey to launch if I want. We are
Speaker 2: comfortable to do something different. You have more control over
Speaker 2: your time and what you do for work, So if
Speaker 2: you're working in an oppressive environment or even in a
Speaker 2: relationship that is not safe, you can leave that. It
Speaker 2: won't be because of money that you have to stay,
Speaker 2: because you have more flexibility. And then the fifth and
Speaker 2: final stage is the captain stage. That is the you've
Speaker 2: reached financial independence. Work truly is a choice and you
Speaker 2: don't have to work again. And with all those stages,
Speaker 2: it's going to depend how long it takes for each
Speaker 2: person to go through it, depending on their circumstances. You know,
Speaker 2: their income, their assets, liabilities, all those things. But within
Speaker 2: each stage, even if you're in a stage for a
Speaker 2: few years, because it can take few years for someone
Speaker 2: or even a decade in some of these stages, there's
Speaker 2: freedom at every stage because one less debt that you
Speaker 2: pay off in the cadet stage, you have more freedom.
Speaker 2: One more asset that you buy or investment that you make.
Speaker 2: That's more freedom. So you don't have to reach complete
Speaker 2: financial independence or be a captain to enjoy your life.
Speaker 3: You can enjoy it while you're on the journey to
Speaker 3: financial independence.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that breakdown. I wonder if you can
Speaker 1: share some of the maybe common challenges that people might
Speaker 1: face on that journey, like at each of.
Speaker 2: Those steps interesting because you can be at a earlier
Speaker 2: stage or stuck in an earlier stage like the explorer
Speaker 2: or cadet stage. And it's not based on your income,
Speaker 2: because there are people who earn a decent amount of
Speaker 2: money and they still feel and are stuck in those stages.
Speaker 2: And so income is a driving force to allowing you
Speaker 2: to move through these stages, but it's not the only thing.
Speaker 2: It's managing and optimizing your expenses, so not necessarily getting
Speaker 2: it down to the lowest it can be, because not
Speaker 2: everyone wants to be frugal, which I understand and I've
Speaker 2: changed my mind about that on my journey. But it's
Speaker 2: about what are your goals and what are you willing
Speaker 2: to do in order to get there. And so people
Speaker 2: when they're in these stages, they find out where they
Speaker 2: are and then they think about this idea of financial independence,
Speaker 2: and maybe they don't like their job and they do
Speaker 2: want to reach it. Then it becomes a exercise at
Speaker 2: first of what's my initial plan to get there. So
Speaker 2: first you do need a plan, which the book helps
Speaker 2: you map out what that initial plan looks like. So
Speaker 2: what is your starting point? How many things do you own,
Speaker 2: so your assets, what do you owe your life abilities?
Speaker 2: How much money are you making? And what are your expenses?
Speaker 2: And so those four components are things you can literally
Speaker 2: sit down and write out and put a number two
Speaker 2: right now. Then there are the intangible, what I call
Speaker 2: the intangible components that people tend to gloss over or
Speaker 2: want to skip, because it actually is the most work,
Speaker 2: and that is working on your mindset and habits, and
Speaker 2: it's sometimes not things you can measure, but it makes
Speaker 2: everything you do sustainable or even plausible to do. So
Speaker 2: I would say for most people, it's understanding what mindset
Speaker 2: and habits they have that are either holding them back
Speaker 2: to earning more or spending in a way that gives
Speaker 2: them joy or learning to invest or pay down debt,
Speaker 2: What habits and mindsets are helping that, and what habits
Speaker 2: and mindsets are actually not helping that, and what can
Speaker 2: you do to work and improve those things.
Speaker 1: So you know, Jamila, I would imagine that there are
Speaker 1: people who are enjoying our conversation right now, who are saying, SiZ,
Speaker 1: the price of everything is much more expensive.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: There are articles coming out every day everyday week around
Speaker 1: people who you know, want to buy homes but cannot
Speaker 1: afford to buy homes. Eggs are more expensive, clothes more expensive,
Speaker 1: cause and more expensive. Like everything is much more expensive,
Speaker 1: and so they may be thinking like, although this sounds great,
Speaker 1: but like, how can I do this realistically? Kind of
Speaker 1: given where we are in the world.
Speaker 2: And it's valid being you know, inflation is real, and
Speaker 2: so many of us were not taught to invest or
Speaker 2: didn't understand it or feel intimidated, and so we're not
Speaker 2: able to grow our money in a way that works
Speaker 2: for us to help keep up with inflation.
Speaker 3: Plus there's just some people who are not earning enough money.
Speaker 2: And so I always like to say and meet people
Speaker 2: where they are when I'm talking about financial independence, that
Speaker 2: some years or some time may need to be spent
Speaker 2: just on working on education or your income. So there
Speaker 2: are a lot of things you need to work on
Speaker 2: this journey. But in order to increase your income, it's
Speaker 2: not something that a lot of people can do overnight.
Speaker 2: It may take a couple of years. Right in some
Speaker 2: investment into whether it's courses or resources. But for people
Speaker 2: who are feeling strained and they are doing their best,
Speaker 2: it is more about realizing that and giving yourself grace
Speaker 2: for that journey. And so you'll hear people when they
Speaker 2: talk about their journey, or even me be able to say, oh,
Speaker 2: I did this thing or equit my job. But every
Speaker 2: one's journey is going to look different depending on their circumstances.
Speaker 2: So if you're not earning enough and you know that's
Speaker 2: your primary issue right now, then it may just take
Speaker 2: some time to work that out. Or if you are
Speaker 2: dealing with an expense issue, meaning when you really are
Speaker 2: honest with yourself, you look at how much you're spending
Speaker 2: and there are ways in which you can cut back
Speaker 2: so that you can get to the next stage or
Speaker 2: to a goal. Then it may need to be more
Speaker 2: disciplined or more systems in place, like a budget that
Speaker 2: you follow to help you accomplish some of these things.
Speaker 2: But in general, this journey is a privileged one where
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean you have to have a lot to
Speaker 2: start it, but if you find that you can't because
Speaker 2: of legitimate reasons, then those reasons are fine to focus
Speaker 2: on in the moment and also to give yourself grace
Speaker 2: for how long it may take you to get through
Speaker 2: these things, because some things are not in our control. Right,
Speaker 2: we can't control the government, inflation, economy, but what can
Speaker 2: we control? And those are the things that I like
Speaker 2: to focus on to help people through the journey.
Speaker 1: So the significant part of the book, like you mentioned,
Speaker 1: talks about like this mindset piece, and you even talk
Speaker 1: about needing to go to therapy as a part of
Speaker 1: the journey to financial independence. Can you talk a little
Speaker 1: bit more about the tying in of talking with the
Speaker 1: therapist about some of these things.
Speaker 3: You know, it's so interesting.
Speaker 2: I think our overall mindset and well being, Like money is.
Speaker 3: Just a part of that. It's a big part of it,
Speaker 3: but it's a part of it.
Speaker 2: And sometimes how we interact with people and money, it's
Speaker 2: all stemming from like deeper things, whether it is relationships
Speaker 2: with people that we want to have or don't have,
Speaker 2: and like issues or trauma. It all impacts how we
Speaker 2: show up in the world and so being able to
Speaker 2: uncover that and you know, you don't have to go
Speaker 2: to a money therapist, but just a therapist to talk
Speaker 2: through what are the things inside of you that need
Speaker 2: to come out.
Speaker 3: I think is really helpful.
Speaker 2: I relate it to earning money, right Like, someone may
Speaker 2: be not able to speak up for themselves and you know,
Speaker 2: ask for that raise or negotiate or feel seen at
Speaker 2: their work, even though they're great at what they do
Speaker 2: for not necessarily because they're not competent, but because it's
Speaker 2: something deeper that if they were able to, you know,
Speaker 2: have those conversations work through it, it would impact eventually
Speaker 2: their money because of how they show up and how
Speaker 2: they advocate for themselves. Even being an entrepreneur, there is
Speaker 2: this always needing to put yourself out there to show
Speaker 2: the world what you have or to sell something. And
Speaker 2: I realize this in myself sometimes like my maybe inability
Speaker 2: or my wanting to protect myself and not show up
Speaker 2: in some areas could be tied to a deeper place.
Speaker 3: It's not just money, but it impacts my money.
Speaker 2: And so I think, what, you're able to make those
Speaker 2: connections and see that there is a connection, but then
Speaker 2: get professional help to help talk you through those things,
Speaker 2: you will have a domino effect in the other areas
Speaker 2: of your life.
Speaker 3: And the one big area is money.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So you also
Speaker 1: talk about in the book there are lots of different
Speaker 1: formulas and you do give people lots of different places
Speaker 1: to get started. Can you talk about some of the
Speaker 1: most important formulas that people will find in the book
Speaker 1: and what kinds of things they're going to be helpful.
Speaker 3: For right now?
Speaker 2: Don't let that turn you away from the book. There
Speaker 2: are formulas, but you don't need to memorize them. It
Speaker 2: is really just a way in which people if you
Speaker 2: understand the way money works and how to reach any
Speaker 2: goal you have for yourself, then eventually you don't have
Speaker 2: to Just like riding a bike, you don't have to
Speaker 2: think about writing it.
Speaker 3: You just do it or you have that skill in
Speaker 3: your back pocket.
Speaker 2: One of the formulas is the FI formula, and really
Speaker 2: it is a matter of knowing all all the components
Speaker 2: that make up your financial independence and money journey. And
Speaker 2: we talked about some of it before, but there's six
Speaker 2: of them. For of them are the tangible things that
Speaker 2: we can list out or write out or numbers for
Speaker 2: That is your income, your expenses, your assets, and your liabilities.
Speaker 2: And then two are intangible. They make the tangible happen
Speaker 2: that's your mindset and habits. And really it's a matter
Speaker 2: of your income, So how much you bring in minus
Speaker 2: your mandatory expenses, so what you need to spend in
Speaker 2: order to survive, you know, rent, mortgage, groceries, the basics,
Speaker 2: equals hopefully a gap. It's what I call a gap
Speaker 2: in the book. It's the money left over. And with
Speaker 2: that gap that is how you get ahead in your
Speaker 2: finances to your goals and to live the life you want.
Speaker 2: So this is where we also talk about spending money
Speaker 2: on things we enjoy. So with the gap, after you
Speaker 2: pay for your mandatory expenses, you are looking to increase
Speaker 2: your assets so that save and invest, paid on liability
Speaker 2: and also pay for your discussionary expenses and the things
Speaker 2: you like doing. And then in order to do that though,
Speaker 2: you need enough income. So income drives all that, but
Speaker 2: it's really your habits and mindset that make it all work.
Speaker 1: Got it? Okay, So you've talked a little bit about,
Speaker 1: like from the mental health angle, how our mindset impacts
Speaker 1: our ability to save and how we think about money.
Speaker 1: But I also know that financial planning and having a
Speaker 1: budget can also help our mental health. Right, can you
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about some tips and strategies for
Speaker 1: how we might build a budget that actually supports our
Speaker 1: mental health.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: I think it's also stepping away from the fact that
Speaker 2: a budget gives you constraints and to re engage with
Speaker 2: it in a sense that it will give you freedom.
Speaker 2: Because if you are someone who has anxiety or just
Speaker 2: second thoughts around where you are with your money, and
Speaker 2: most of us do, is that a budget or a
Speaker 2: plan for your money, Because that's what a budget is.
Speaker 2: It's literally telling your money what to do before it
Speaker 2: tells you to do because so many of us are
Speaker 2: reacting to you know, situations the money is bossing us around, right,
Speaker 2: But with a budget, you're able to tell your dollars
Speaker 2: in advance what your plans are for them. You are
Speaker 2: in control, so you say, all right, this is where
Speaker 2: you're spending this money. And when you do that, you
Speaker 2: actually have the ability and freedom to spend more without
Speaker 2: feeling that you should be suathing something else with your money.
Speaker 2: So when you go out to brunch with your friends,
Speaker 2: which I like doing, or to a restaurant, instead of
Speaker 2: feeling like can I really afford this? Like I feel
Speaker 2: bad I should be putting this towards my debt or
Speaker 2: having these feelings come up. You know you put outside
Speaker 2: this money already and you can do this and not
Speaker 2: have guilt.
Speaker 3: Or if you.
Speaker 2: Decide that you know what, I'm going to go out
Speaker 2: for that extra brunch that was not planned for, you
Speaker 2: know that there is a plan for your money that
Speaker 2: you can start to readjust to make that brunch doable.
Speaker 2: And so when it comes to budgeting, especially for people
Speaker 2: who don't like it or have not tried it, or
Speaker 2: tried it and it has not worked yet, it is
Speaker 2: this idea that it gives you free them. You have
Speaker 2: to stick with it until something sticks. And so if
Speaker 2: that means trying differenting budgeting apps, pen and paper, Google
Speaker 2: sheets or Excel, you have to find a method that
Speaker 2: works for you. And then also, it's not just enough
Speaker 2: to create the budget. My first thing is if you
Speaker 2: created a budget, that's great, meaning you sat down, you
Speaker 2: look at where your money is going, and you have
Speaker 2: numbers and category line items.
Speaker 3: It's a great start.
Speaker 2: But you need to let that budget inform you now,
Speaker 2: because the point of a budget is it helps you
Speaker 2: be proactive and so that you check it as you
Speaker 2: go on, whether it's once a week, once every other week,
Speaker 2: depending on where you are on your journey, but that
Speaker 2: you are checking in with it, so the budget is
Speaker 2: able to do its job and you're able to readjust
Speaker 2: if you need to as you go.
Speaker 1: And as you were talking, I'm thinking some of it.
Speaker 1: I really feel like the mindset part is really important
Speaker 1: because some of that those behaviors don't change just because
Speaker 1: you make more money.
Speaker 3: That's the thing.
Speaker 2: And I know people who are financially independent or on
Speaker 2: their way and they're still not happy. They still have
Speaker 2: a lot of issues with money or not knowing if
Speaker 2: they have enough and insecurity around it. And so money
Speaker 2: obviously at a certain level, is that takes care of
Speaker 2: your security is important, but it's so necessary on this
Speaker 2: journey to really find out and heal whatever needs to
Speaker 2: be healed, and to have community and love and enjoy
Speaker 2: wherever you are, even if you're at that explorer stage,
Speaker 2: even you know, the fact that you even have placed
Speaker 2: yourself on this journey is a big deal. I always
Speaker 2: like to say, like that's you need to give yourself
Speaker 2: credit for that, because so many people unknowingly are on
Speaker 2: this journey. Because the time is going to pass anyway,
Speaker 2: You're going to get older, God willing, and you're going
Speaker 2: to need to still take care of yourself, and so
Speaker 2: you might as well take back control now before it's.
Speaker 3: Not too far gone.
Speaker 2: But you know before it just takes more work at
Speaker 2: the end of your life, where it's more of a
Speaker 2: burden for other people. So the mindset and thinking about
Speaker 2: how you feel on the journey because it takes so long,
Speaker 2: is important because you don't want to get to the
Speaker 2: end of it. Let's just say you say, okay, I
Speaker 2: need a million or two million dollars invested to be
Speaker 2: financially independent, and you do all this work for fifteen
Speaker 2: years or twenty years or whatever it takes for you
Speaker 2: to get there, and then because you kept looking forward
Speaker 2: to the next thing or to that thing that that
Speaker 2: would make you happy, that you're still not happy. And
Speaker 2: I know so many people like that, and I don't
Speaker 2: want to be like that. I don't want anyone in this.
Speaker 3: Journey to be like that.
Speaker 2: And so it's like, how can you be happy no
Speaker 2: matter where you are, even if you are in debt,
Speaker 2: even if you are working to pay just for your
Speaker 2: rent and the minimum debt payments. Where can you find
Speaker 2: perspective and encouragement to do that, and that's all mindset
Speaker 2: and the habits that support that to make that possible.
Speaker 2: You know, Jamila, I know you and I have had
Speaker 2: conversations in the past about you doing public speaking in
Speaker 2: this space and like finding that it's just a very
Speaker 2: white space, right there are not a lot of people
Speaker 2: who look like you in the financial independence space. Can
Speaker 2: you talk a little bit about some of the particular
Speaker 2: challenges that black women may have when it comes to
Speaker 2: following this kind of journey and financial independence. I think
Speaker 2: in general, it's this idea because when I started listening
Speaker 2: to a financial independence podcast, they were all white men,
Speaker 2: and sometimes they would have a person of color on
Speaker 2: or a black person on, and I'd be so excited
Speaker 2: because I just knew their perspective was just different. They
Speaker 2: were speaking more to my journey, even if they came
Speaker 2: from a different background. And so what I've seen and
Speaker 2: I am still seeing on my journey, as I'm still
Speaker 2: on my journey and helping other people, is that there's
Speaker 2: just this disconnect of like our starting points, all the
Speaker 2: things that impact us as women, and all the statistics that, well,
Speaker 2: how we are the matriarchs of the family and most
Speaker 2: things fall on us but then now you doll it
Speaker 2: down to people of color and then black women, and
Speaker 2: how we still have to show up for mostly everyone,
Speaker 2: not only ourselves, which usually we put last, but everyone
Speaker 2: else in our life, whether you have kids or not. Right,
Speaker 2: it's like family members, and there's so much on our
Speaker 2: shoulders that we are holding and carrying.
Speaker 3: And then this.
Speaker 2: Idea now of well, okay, I know you know about
Speaker 2: like basic personal finance, so budgeting and saving a small
Speaker 2: percentage to make sure you're okay when you're maybe sixty five,
Speaker 2: And now I'm asking you to consider something that's a
Speaker 2: lot more audacious and radical, which requires more of you
Speaker 2: and for a lot of people and black women, that
Speaker 2: feels like I'm already doing a lot and now you
Speaker 2: want me to do more.
Speaker 3: Isn't this enough?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, you know what, you are doing a
Speaker 2: lot and it is amazing. But doing this is not
Speaker 2: to be looked on as a deprivation or something that
Speaker 2: takes away from your life. It actually will help your
Speaker 2: life more so. You being able to focus on yourself
Speaker 2: and your own finances and making sure you're good first
Speaker 2: allows you when you get to stability, when you get
Speaker 2: to security, to help other people if you want to
Speaker 2: do that, or you being able to wake up and
Speaker 2: choose what you want to do for work, a walk
Speaker 2: away from a situation that is not serving to you.
Speaker 2: Having money and understanding this allows you to do that.
Speaker 2: And so I just feel that I understand the load
Speaker 2: is already a lot, and our responsibilities. Sometimes it's just more,
Speaker 2: especially if you have family in another country or state
Speaker 2: that you're helping out. But you can incorporate that in
Speaker 2: your journey as long as you are looking at and
Speaker 2: honestly being selfish in some ways, with yourself first and
Speaker 2: putting yourself first. I say, that's like the biggest thing
Speaker 2: I see is that feedback of already have a lot
Speaker 2: going on, like mentally, it's hard to even consider this,
Speaker 2: And I'm like, you can't afford not to consider this,
Speaker 2: because your life, even if I always say I think
Speaker 2: everyone can make it to this fourth stage that I'm in,
Speaker 2: this fourth stage of flexibility and more options, and you
Speaker 2: can't afford not to try to do that, not just
Speaker 2: for yourself, but yes, for your family, but really just
Speaker 2: for yourself. Because I couldn't have told you, doctor Joy
Speaker 2: that seven years ago I would be here talking to
Speaker 2: you with a book and a podcast just because I
Speaker 2: started the journey. And that's what I want to encourage
Speaker 2: black women to know, is that you deserve this. It's
Speaker 2: your right, and you will be surprised at how amazing
Speaker 2: your life will be in the journey. In the moments,
Speaker 2: not even when you get million dollars you do all
Speaker 2: those amazing things you want to do, but in the
Speaker 2: journey who you become as you work on yourself.
Speaker 1: So how do you want people to engage with the book?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I want people to actually so buy it. Yes,
Speaker 2: your journey to financial freedom. Buy the book. But I
Speaker 2: really want people to read it. I know we have
Speaker 2: a tendency like we buy books and then we have
Speaker 2: well intentions to want to maybe read it, but we don't.
Speaker 2: Then I want this book to be something that people
Speaker 2: can go back to and use as a reference. So like,
Speaker 2: read it through the first time and hopefully it's sparking
Speaker 2: a lot of new cells that allow you to think
Speaker 2: differently about your life and what it can look like.
Speaker 2: And then as you you start to plan your journey,
Speaker 2: which the book allows you to do, is that you
Speaker 2: plan that first journey and what that may look like
Speaker 2: to reach financial independence and then you come back to it,
Speaker 2: because that's the other thing. Your mind will change on
Speaker 2: this journey. Your circumstances will change on this journey, and
Speaker 2: you might want to change your approach. In my earlier years,
Speaker 2: I was really focused on saving and investing, and I
Speaker 2: wasn't too concerned about.
Speaker 3: Enjoying the things.
Speaker 2: Now, as I'm a full time entrepreneur, my kids are
Speaker 2: a little bit older. Now, I want to enjoy my
Speaker 2: money more and lean into that. And so I've changed
Speaker 2: how I go about financial independence. And so I've had
Speaker 2: to come back and readjust my plan, and I will
Speaker 2: still maybe need to go back and readjust it in
Speaker 2: a couple months or a year. And so I want
Speaker 2: people when they read the book to know they can
Speaker 2: come back to it and help them figure out or
Speaker 2: recalibrate what their journey looks like because it is flexible
Speaker 2: live bit.
Speaker 1: So tell us where can we stay connected with you?
Speaker 1: Where can we grab our copy of the book. What
Speaker 1: are your websites as well as any social media handles
Speaker 1: you want to share?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can go to your Journey to Financialfreedom
Speaker 2: dot com. That's the book a website, and you can
Speaker 2: find all the places to buy it Amazon, Bookshop dot org,
Speaker 2: walk into your local bookstore, Barnes and Noble, all the places,
Speaker 2: and then I'm at Journey to Launch on Instagram, Twitter,
Speaker 2: and Facebook. I'm also at Jamila Sufront. That's my little
Speaker 2: personal brand handle where I try to share more of
Speaker 2: the personal journey and what it's like to launch a
Speaker 2: book into the world. But you can find me there.
Speaker 2: And then ultimately it's go to your Journey to Financialfreedom
Speaker 2: dot com and pick up the book and become a journeyer.
Speaker 2: So I always like to say, when you're on this
Speaker 2: journey with me, you become a journeyer.
Speaker 3: And I love.
Speaker 2: Being able to connect with you and see how far
Speaker 2: or just how much you can surprise yourself on this journey.
Speaker 1: So absolutely we will be sure to include all of
Speaker 1: that in the show notes. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: spending some time with us today, Jamila. Thank you for
Speaker 1: having me, Doctor Joe. Absolutely, I'm so glad Jamila was
Speaker 1: able to share her expertise with us today. To learn
Speaker 1: more about her and her work, or to grab a
Speaker 1: copy of your Journey to Financial Freedom, visit the show
Speaker 1: notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com, slash financial Freedom
Speaker 1: and don't forget to text two of your girls right
Speaker 1: now and tell them to check out the episode. If
Speaker 1: you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our
Speaker 1: therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory.
Speaker 1: And if you want to continue digging into this topic
Speaker 1: or just being community with other sisters, come on over
Speaker 1: and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy
Speaker 1: corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You
Speaker 1: can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and
Speaker 1: Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank
Speaker 1: y'all so much for joining me for another TVG Library episode.
Speaker 1: We'll be back with our regular weekly episode on whens Day.
Speaker 1: Until then, take good care.