Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefan
Speaker 1: Never told You production of iHeart Radio. And today we're
Speaker 1: bringing back one of my favorite I had such a good.
Speaker 2: Time doing this one. It's when we did a tale
Speaker 2: of two holiday superhero movies.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that was the beginning.
Speaker 2: Yeah movies. That was That was a fun one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because we did kind of quote non traditional holiday
Speaker 1: movies and I had never seen Batman Returns.
Speaker 2: I got to watch it. It was great.
Speaker 1: We talked about Iron Man three and bonus Spider Man
Speaker 1: into the Spider Verse, which is it does fit. It did,
Speaker 1: But I had such a I had such a fun
Speaker 1: time doing this one, so please enjoy this classic episode. Hey,
Speaker 1: this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff I've
Speaker 1: Never told you, Protection of iHeartRadio's House.
Speaker 2: Stuff works.
Speaker 1: It's time for another feminist movie Friday.
Speaker 2: We're gonna make this, I think so.
Speaker 4: Wait. This is because it's coming out on Friday, not
Speaker 4: that we're watching it on Friday.
Speaker 1: It's however it fits into the lives of whoever's listening Friday. Yes,
Speaker 1: it should accomplish on Fridays, but if you don't watch
Speaker 1: it on a Friday, that's totally cool.
Speaker 2: If you don't watch it, ever, I totally cool.
Speaker 3: So you listen?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well no, no, I want to move movie.
Speaker 3: Oh okay.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, see there's a lot of things you could
Speaker 1: make this work on Friday.
Speaker 4: However, views about you know, what senses we're supposed to
Speaker 4: be using right now?
Speaker 2: That seems to be a general confusion.
Speaker 4: We have it, it's been general confused.
Speaker 1: So I got to choose the last movie for feminist
Speaker 1: movie Friday. Yeah, and so this one it was more
Speaker 1: of a Samantha choice.
Speaker 4: I felt it was a team effort because we were
Speaker 4: both trying to figure out what movie is holiday, but
Speaker 4: without being to holiday, right.
Speaker 1: Because, like we talked about in our Emotional Neighbor Holiday
Speaker 1: as an episode, Samantha's not a big holiday fan. And
Speaker 1: back when I was sort of semi host less, I
Speaker 1: did a holiday movie overview with my friend Katie.
Speaker 2: It was mostly Hallmark movies. Yes, hi Katie, she's.
Speaker 1: An expert in those, but we thought we'd tackle some
Speaker 1: lesser discussed holiday movies today, so that this is more
Speaker 1: than one film, right, But to be fair, yes, the
Speaker 1: movie that I chose, it's very much like even though
Speaker 1: they might not be seeing holiday carols.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of holiday decorations the entire movie.
Speaker 1: Yes, and so we've built it up here we go.
Speaker 1: We're talking about Batman returns. Yeah, with a little bit
Speaker 1: of Ironman three, a little bit and a little bit
Speaker 1: of Spider Man into the Spider.
Speaker 2: Verse a little.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I would like to say, though, we will be coming
Speaker 4: back to the craft and the mania suggestions you guys had,
Speaker 4: we decided to go ahead and start our holiday edition
Speaker 4: with a little bit of feminist turn Again. I don't
Speaker 4: like holidays, altho.
Speaker 3: I kind of enjoyed some holiday movies.
Speaker 4: I already said that I like Love Actually and that
Speaker 4: is an absolute holiday movie.
Speaker 3: But that was just too on the nose for us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and a lot of them, as we discussed,
Speaker 1: I think in the past past episode hard to have
Speaker 1: much feminist discussion in them unless we're just like, well,
Speaker 1: this is all a problem here. And surprisingly Batman returns.
Speaker 2: There's a lot to.
Speaker 3: Be said, there's a lot to be said.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're surprised, And somehow we wedged a viewing in
Speaker 4: for both Batman Returns and Spider Man into the Spider
Speaker 4: Verse on Sunday. Yeah, Oh my goodness, Yeah, my goodness.
Speaker 3: And then we had like Harry Potter in there, so
Speaker 3: it was all night.
Speaker 2: It was a very long time. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Also, I feel like, uh, I missed an opportunity to
Speaker 4: have the live interaction commentary that you put on any
Speaker 4: uh it's.
Speaker 3: Almost as entertaining as the actual movie.
Speaker 4: And so if you guys ever want to treat, if
Speaker 4: I could ever live stream you watching Spider Man into
Speaker 4: the Spider Verse, and.
Speaker 3: It will never be a clip of the movie.
Speaker 4: It's just you squealing at the movie the entire time.
Speaker 1: It's oh man, I had about Carvy dots and the line.
Speaker 4: And it was so so. My friend Joe was there
Speaker 4: and the two of you were just having a back
Speaker 4: of board and I kept looking at both of you, going,
Speaker 4: you guys are the worst people to watch movies.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really couldn't contain my enthusiasm. I appreciate that
Speaker 1: you let me have that.
Speaker 4: Oh oh, one day we're gonna do it again and
Speaker 4: I'm gonna live stream it for everyone.
Speaker 2: I was very excited.
Speaker 1: I didn't know we were going to get to watch that.
Speaker 1: That was kind of a bonus little treat. Yes, so
Speaker 1: we will return to that at the very end. And
Speaker 1: if I want to do spoiled Saturdays where we just
Speaker 1: have a take on something that's really recent, and if
Speaker 1: you don't want to be spoiled, then.
Speaker 4: Feel like we could talk about The Joker and like
Speaker 4: what we talked about previously, and then Midsummer.
Speaker 1: I have Yeah, I have so many horror movies, like, oh,
Speaker 1: please let me talk about this, but okay, today we're
Speaker 1: talking about Batman Returns, Batmanaturns. Yeah, And for this I
Speaker 1: did want to do a really quick overview of Catwoman
Speaker 1: because she's pretty much what we're going to be talking
Speaker 1: about in terms of this movie, and she's been.
Speaker 2: Around a long long time.
Speaker 1: I think definitely future episode because there is a lot
Speaker 1: to be said about her, but quickly. She first appeared
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty, meaning that she's been through the first, second, third,
Speaker 1: and fourth if you want to call that waves of feminism.
Speaker 1: She was designed by Jerry Robinson and Bob Kine. Only
Speaker 1: three women have written for her so far, and she's
Speaker 1: only ever been drawn by men. If you're wondering, she
Speaker 1: was one of the first ever female comic book superheroes.
Speaker 1: In quotes, her name is Selena Kyle and she's a
Speaker 1: cat burglar in a catsuit. She's often painted as an
Speaker 1: anti hero and sometimes a villain and sometimes a hero,
Speaker 1: and this allows her to operate in a space where
Speaker 1: she's tough to pin down. She's more than Batman's sometimes
Speaker 1: love interest. Over the years, she's been played by a
Speaker 1: handful of people, from Michelle Pfeiffer to Halle Berry to
Speaker 1: Anne Hathaway and I think I was telling you, Samath.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure most of the mainstream women who've played
Speaker 1: her have all been nominated for oscars.
Speaker 2: Are one oscars?
Speaker 1: So hey, yeah, and yes. In most depictions, she is
Speaker 1: highly sexualized. Her outfit is similar to what a dominatrix
Speaker 1: would wear, down to the whip, which is you ually,
Speaker 1: her weapon of choice. And then there's this quote Bob
Speaker 1: Kine once said of catwomen, I felt that women were
Speaker 1: feline creatures and men were more like dogs. While dogs
Speaker 1: are faithful and friendly, cats are cool, detached, and unreliable.
Speaker 1: I felt much warmer with dogs around me. Cats are
Speaker 1: as hard to understand as women are. Men feel more
Speaker 1: sure of themselves with a male friend.
Speaker 2: Than a woman.
Speaker 1: You always need to keep women at arms length. We
Speaker 1: don't want anyone taking over our souls, and women have
Speaker 1: a habit of doing that, So there's a love resentment
Speaker 1: thing with women. I guess women will feel that I'm
Speaker 1: being chauvinistic to speak this way, but I do feel
Speaker 1: that I've had better relationships with male friends than women
Speaker 1: with women.
Speaker 2: Once throwmances over, somehow, they never remaine my friends.
Speaker 4: Of course not.
Speaker 1: So this is the person who created Catwomen. That might
Speaker 1: give you some insight into the character. This also might
Speaker 1: she was created in part to combat talk of homo
Speaker 1: eroticism between Batman and Robin and to reinforce Batman's heterosexuality.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Catwoman was banned from the comics in the fifties
Speaker 4: because of the comic code that dictated that crime should
Speaker 4: never be seen to pay, and Catwoman was not acting
Speaker 4: like how a woman should behave. Oh no, and she
Speaker 4: didn't return to the nineteen sixties. She was originally played
Speaker 4: by Julie Newmar in the nineteen sixties TV series with
Speaker 4: Adam West, who was also then later on played by
Speaker 4: Eartha kit in the final season of that series, apparently
Speaker 4: because Julie Numar was in a movie contract. She has
Speaker 4: different origin stories, so the first being known as the
Speaker 4: cat who carries the whip and has high stakes thievery
Speaker 4: Yeah to Stewardess with amnesia that turned to crime that
Speaker 4: then later assisted Batman in stopping crime to the now
Speaker 4: though nothing now to what we're talking about. Ninety two
Speaker 4: version of the Revenge Seeking recis Exceptionist Assistant an assistant
Speaker 4: to and Hathaway's original take on the high stage thief right.
Speaker 1: And throughout these various incarnations, one thing that has remained
Speaker 1: steady is that she is sexualized and the power her
Speaker 1: body has over others. However, since she is catering to
Speaker 1: the male gaze, it's really hard to say what is
Speaker 1: power and what is objectification.
Speaker 2: And I have felt this when I've.
Speaker 1: Dressed as her, because I have had a lot of
Speaker 1: super gross comments made to me, including one that really
Speaker 1: stands out where this guy said that I quote knew
Speaker 1: exactly what I was doing by dressing as her.
Speaker 3: It's very rapey.
Speaker 2: It was gross.
Speaker 3: It's a very rapey comment.
Speaker 4: Side note here, according to some in the original series
Speaker 4: and then when we see it again in both Batman
Speaker 4: returns in Dark Knight, the love story link between Batman
Speaker 4: and Catwoman existed, however, when Arthur Kit portrayed the role
Speaker 4: as Catwoman because she was African American, and because Adam
Speaker 4: West Is was white, writers and creators felt it was
Speaker 4: too taboo and not suitable for them to be a
Speaker 4: on screen romance. So they changed that story to being
Speaker 4: Batgirl and Batman.
Speaker 2: Yes, which is yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and uhat girl. It was also a bat Woman
Speaker 1: who was introduced when Catwoman was being shot off the stage,
Speaker 1: who was like.
Speaker 2: See heteronormativity family.
Speaker 1: She was like the mom, the boring mom, and then
Speaker 1: Batman is the dad Robin.
Speaker 4: And I remember this because I did watch the series.
Speaker 4: I don't know, I guess I really like that Adam
Speaker 4: west series growing up, where Batgirl was very the girl
Speaker 4: next door, yeah, while Catwoman was the bad girl.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So the plot, yeah, how would you describe this?
Speaker 2: The plot little of.
Speaker 4: So many things, because you know, this is the beginning
Speaker 4: where they were having more than one and I hear
Speaker 4: a villain and two the stories. So Batman returns in
Speaker 4: the nineteen ninety two Batman's sequel, directed by Tim Burton
Speaker 4: with a script by Daniel Waters.
Speaker 3: This is the same dude that did the.
Speaker 4: Script for Heathers Yes, which you acknowledged, Yes, I do,
Speaker 4: And that's going to be another movie.
Speaker 3: I think we need to visit.
Speaker 4: Michael Keaton plays Bruce Wayne Batman, who was doing his
Speaker 4: best to protect Gotham from a corrupt industrialist named Max
Speaker 4: Shrek who was played by the wonderful Christopher walkinsh so good,
Speaker 4: and a crime boss known as the Penguin by the
Speaker 4: who else could it be? But Danny DeVito, like, I
Speaker 4: don't know if there's going to be anyone who could
Speaker 4: replace that. And it takes place at Christmas time a
Speaker 4: giant tree the opening scene, there's multiple Christmas tree lightings. Yes,
Speaker 4: that's yes, that's true presence all that, Yes, to bring
Speaker 4: in all of the crazy clowns. Apparently circuses something to
Speaker 4: do with it as well as zoos. Okay, so according
Speaker 4: to the Amazon.
Speaker 2: Description, yeah, let's see how Amazon.
Speaker 4: Batman Kate Crusader is pitted against demented, ravenous Penguin, a
Speaker 4: full orphaned psychopathic freak, and power hungry capitalist villain Max Shrek.
Speaker 4: So no, of course not, even though that was really
Speaker 4: really one of the like that honestly, between her and
Speaker 4: Danny DeVito and Christopher Walken, I remembered Michelle Pfeiffer in
Speaker 4: the movie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what a lot of people seem to
Speaker 1: say when I tell them, when I would say, we're
Speaker 1: doing this episode, and then they.
Speaker 2: Would immediately the iconic cat like right.
Speaker 1: And also, I just want to mention my favorite part
Speaker 1: of this Amazon description is that power is in quotes
Speaker 1: of course, because he's there's a power plant involves I
Speaker 1: would get.
Speaker 4: If you've seen it in a Marvel, not a Marvel,
Speaker 4: a DC movie for sure. Because also the original Batman
Speaker 4: series had all of the kind of uh puns. Oh oh,
Speaker 4: so they kind of gave a lineage to that.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, they they definitely leaned in in this one.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen, so disclaimer, I've seen all of these
Speaker 1: era of Batman movies. I've seen all the Christopher Nolan wants,
Speaker 1: but I saw them all in one very drunken day,
Speaker 1: so I only remember bits and pieces. But oh, Samantha,
Speaker 1: and I did rewatch this from for this show, so
Speaker 1: I have seen that, but I do. I had got
Speaker 1: a sense that they really leaned hard into those puns, right.
Speaker 4: I think the second one was a little more because
Speaker 4: the first one was also by Tim Burton, and I
Speaker 4: feel like you see the same darkness, but the second
Speaker 4: one seems a little kitchier. But to be fair, I
Speaker 4: guess you have that origin story of Batman, so the
Speaker 4: darkness of you know, seeing his parents die and all
Speaker 4: of that, and him coming out to the community as
Speaker 4: you know, this vengeful hero. But you do also have
Speaker 4: the joker of doing a majority of the puns and
Speaker 4: being somewhat kitchy. As of the second one, I think
Speaker 4: it's just kind of all happened. And you did mention
Speaker 4: about the fight that there wasn't many scenes with Keaton.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one of my favorite parts of the movie.
Speaker 1: Actually, he's in like a fourth of it. He's really
Speaker 1: not about him in my opinion, especially the first half.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely was all the origin stories for.
Speaker 2: Catwoman, Yes, and I love that. So let's talk about Catwoman.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 1: So Michelle Pfeiffer played her Selena Kyle slash Catwoman, and
Speaker 1: when the movie starts, Selena Kyle is the embodiment of
Speaker 1: the crazy cat Lady. She's sort of frumpy in her outfit.
Speaker 1: She has these glasses.
Speaker 2: On which we all know in the eighty that meant well,
Speaker 2: but it's still I guess means that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, people still use that as a thing of like
Speaker 4: unless you're doing library esque, yeah, type of thing librarian
Speaker 4: esque is still like the transformative moment, yeah, which is assdiculous.
Speaker 4: And by the way, Michelle Pfeiffer frumpy is an oxymoron.
Speaker 3: It doesn't it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, she says, I love this. But she gets
Speaker 1: into her empty apartment, she says, honey, I'm home.
Speaker 2: Oh I forgot I'm not married, right right, And she.
Speaker 1: Is the executive assistant slash secretary of Max Shrek, who
Speaker 1: is the ultimate sexist boss. He regularly demeans her, He
Speaker 1: dismisses her, he humiliates her like publicly. When she speaks,
Speaker 1: she does so as though she doesn't want to be heard,
Speaker 1: and she voices things in questions. After she what does this,
Speaker 1: Christoph baal Can say, we haven't housebroken her yet, and
Speaker 1: he leaves. And then she calls herself a corn dot,
Speaker 1: herself like, so stupid corn dog, which is.
Speaker 3: A great fight. I'm gonna use that. I'm gonna call
Speaker 3: everyone a corn dog.
Speaker 1: I haven't heard that insult in a long time, and
Speaker 1: I really appreciated it, especially coming from Michelle Fifer.
Speaker 2: Very funny.
Speaker 1: And then this is around the time where the Christmas
Speaker 1: present thing goes wrong and the shell Fifer gets attacked
Speaker 1: and it's held hostage by a clown. Yes, well, and
Speaker 1: he has like a taser and Batman saves her and
Speaker 1: then kind of.
Speaker 4: Just leaves because she's invisible.
Speaker 3: At that point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And then she has to go back to work late
Speaker 1: and she discovers that her boss is up to.
Speaker 2: No good, up to no good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's basically she's she's smart enough to be like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, your power plant is gonna suck.
Speaker 2: Power from the city. What's going on?
Speaker 1: And then he's like, oh, you're very good at your job,
Speaker 1: too good perhaps, and he pushes her out a window
Speaker 1: and uh he yeah, in his mind, what value did
Speaker 1: she have? A poor, lonely woman. He just pushed her
Speaker 1: out the window, right, yeah. And this is when she
Speaker 1: becomes catwoman, I guess, after a bunch of cats walk
Speaker 1: all over her and one bites her.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we do see it, see it nibbling on her finger.
Speaker 2: And there's blood involved, and so she I love this.
Speaker 2: She goes home.
Speaker 1: She looks like a zombie and she's says, honey, I'm
Speaker 1: ho again. And then she listens to her answering machine
Speaker 1: and there are three messages on it.
Speaker 2: One from her mother, one from her ex.
Speaker 1: Well basically her boyfriend breaking up with her says his
Speaker 1: therapist said he doesn't need an appendage anymore. And then
Speaker 1: a third one, which is from a perfume company that's
Speaker 1: basically pushing how women's sexuality is their currency, which by
Speaker 1: the way, as a callback to her comic book roots
Speaker 1: as a sex worker and how capitalism profits off of that,
Speaker 1: like the systemic kind of sexualization of gentrification of women.
Speaker 1: And also it's from her boss's company. It's her boss's
Speaker 1: department store. So she really transforms.
Speaker 2: So she gets.
Speaker 1: A like black spray paint and starts spray painting her apartment,
Speaker 1: which by the way is like all pink and really
Speaker 1: kind of gurlly.
Speaker 4: Well there's stuffed animals discussed. Yeah, it's very much of
Speaker 4: a young young girl, right, trying to grow up to
Speaker 4: be a woman.
Speaker 3: It was a transformation to be a woman.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So she gets out of the black spray prit
Speaker 1: spraying things down. She goes into her or closet and
Speaker 1: pulls out a black jacket and starts kind of frantically
Speaker 1: sewing it together.
Speaker 2: To make this catsuit.
Speaker 1: And I just want to like reiterate she survived the
Speaker 1: tempted murder returns home and thinks to herself revenge but
Speaker 1: first outfit, I love it.
Speaker 3: Who doesn't do that?
Speaker 4: I mean, you can't kick someone in a skirt, which.
Speaker 3: Is what she's been wearing the entire time.
Speaker 1: As part of this transformation, her voice becomes deeper, kind
Speaker 1: of catlike and purring. She she has this sign, a
Speaker 1: neon sign that said hello there, but she breaks it
Speaker 1: so that instead says hell here.
Speaker 2: That's one of my favorite things. I want that guy.
Speaker 4: It's very pink as well. It's a reminder.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the sign is pink, and I feel like this
Speaker 1: scene is a very screw you to the white picket
Speaker 1: fence kind of perfect life that we've a lot of
Speaker 1: us been told this is success, this is the only way.
Speaker 1: So yeah, she becomes overcome with a self destructive desire
Speaker 1: for revenge, and in this way, she's a great mirror
Speaker 1: for Bruce Wayne's character. Where he is all about justice,
Speaker 1: she is all about vengeance.
Speaker 2: He is a member of the wealthiest class. She decidedly
Speaker 2: is not.
Speaker 1: She is torn between what she should do and what
Speaker 1: she wants to do, between the tragedy of her past
Speaker 1: and the potential to make the future into something better,
Speaker 1: and Batman even says to her at the very end,
Speaker 1: we're the same split right down the center. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I do like that. It's her origin story. We see
Speaker 1: Batman saves her and then she stabs him, which seems
Speaker 1: to be a direct criticism of the damsel in distress.
Speaker 1: He offers her a fare tail the ending women have
Speaker 1: been taught to want, and.
Speaker 2: She is like, oh, I couldn't live with myself and
Speaker 2: this scratches him in the face.
Speaker 3: Yes, and leaves a hook or a claw, leaves a claw.
Speaker 4: She is not a sex object, or at least she
Speaker 4: is that and something else. She is scary, unhinged and
Speaker 4: a total nightmare.
Speaker 3: That's a crazy girl, right.
Speaker 4: Five put a live bird in her mouth for this movie,
Speaker 4: which you told me about. Yeah, and I was like,
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, she actually did this. And Penguin, who
Speaker 4: totally does objectify her, describes her as beauty and the
Speaker 4: beast in one luscious.
Speaker 3: Christmas gift back.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Also, he's just disgusting in every way.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And when she they kind of make a pact to
Speaker 1: work together to take down Batman, and when she refuses
Speaker 1: his advances because in his mind there was going to
Speaker 1: be this romantic sexual component to them working together. And
Speaker 1: when she's she refuses his advances, he says, you.
Speaker 2: Send out all the signals.
Speaker 1: He minks, I had to have you spade, and then
Speaker 1: he attacks her and cost her one of her nine
Speaker 1: And also of notes in this conversation, Penguin, does he
Speaker 1: die he dies? Yeah, he dies when he picks the
Speaker 1: cute umbrella at the end, the feminine one, which does
Speaker 1: nothing against the white, heteronormative masculinity of Batman.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: And also another line we want to showcase is when Catwoman,
Speaker 1: one of the first things she does is break into
Speaker 1: the department store by her boss, right, and these two
Speaker 1: guards see her and she's in this very sexual sexualized outfit,
Speaker 1: very sexy, and one of them says, oh, I don't
Speaker 1: know whether to attack or take her home.
Speaker 2: Or what?
Speaker 1: Maybe says I'm in love anyway, basically should I attack
Speaker 1: her or try to get with her? And Catwoman says,
Speaker 1: you men, always confusing your pistols with your privates. Yes,
Speaker 1: very solitry like too, yes, and then she just blows
Speaker 1: up the department.
Speaker 2: She doesn't steal jewelry.
Speaker 3: She tells him to leave.
Speaker 4: Yeah, doesn't Killingboddy yet yeah.
Speaker 1: She that's when she gets the whip, her weapon, and
Speaker 1: then when Batman attacks her, she says something like.
Speaker 2: How dare you?
Speaker 1: I'm a woman, but then immediately strikes back and finishes
Speaker 1: her thought with as I was saying, I'm a woman
Speaker 1: and can't be taken for granted. Life's a bitch now,
Speaker 1: so am I? Hell yeah, yeah, she really leans hard.
Speaker 1: I felt like into the hysterical label that has so
Speaker 1: long been used against women. Right, she just went for it.
Speaker 1: She did you gonna call me that?
Speaker 4: Okayzy cat lady, I'm crazy cat lady exactly.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And I just want to say, talk about
Speaker 1: some ust unresolved sexual tension.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 1: I did read a lot of accounts when people who
Speaker 1: saw this when they were maybe adolescents and were saying
Speaker 1: that it was a real formative.
Speaker 4: It really was her licking his face along was like
Speaker 4: uh huh yeah, yeah, yep.
Speaker 1: And then yeah, after your Batman kind of offers her
Speaker 1: this fairy tale ending, she refuses and instead she dies
Speaker 1: getting her revenge on Shrek.
Speaker 2: But she has one life left. Some maybe she didn't
Speaker 2: die And do you.
Speaker 4: See spoiler alert, you do see her at the end,
Speaker 4: do you?
Speaker 2: I don't remember.
Speaker 4: I remember he gets out of the car and looking
Speaker 4: at the bat sign. Oh is she Yes, you are
Speaker 4: the one that called it out.
Speaker 2: I was checked out friend, all right.
Speaker 4: So when this movie came out, it was in the
Speaker 4: middle of the third wave feminism, and some people have
Speaker 4: interpreted Catwoman's storyline as a feminist awaking and finding identity.
Speaker 3: I would agree with that.
Speaker 4: One of her first acts as Catwoman is rescuing a
Speaker 4: woman from rape and then braiding that woman for acting
Speaker 4: like a victim.
Speaker 3: And she's not looking to be a hero.
Speaker 4: She's just enraged and knocking and looking to break the
Speaker 4: patriarchal system. She's angry, and everyone who participate in it,
Speaker 4: in her mind, allows to continue it. So as she says,
Speaker 4: you make it easy, don't you always waiting for some
Speaker 4: Batman to save you?
Speaker 3: I am Catwoman, hear me roar Yeah.
Speaker 2: That was the first thing she did when she got out.
Speaker 1: And she even says to the potential the victim, the
Speaker 1: man attacking her, go easy on me.
Speaker 2: It's my first time.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, because he was like what.
Speaker 4: So Also, perhaps she's yelling at her past self who
Speaker 4: she is saved by Batman. Early on in the movie,
Speaker 4: when we were talking about with the circus people, and
Speaker 4: she takes the taser from that attacker and later weaponizes
Speaker 4: it against her enemies, which she did actually use on
Speaker 4: that clown as well, but he was already out right, she.
Speaker 1: Uses it at the end, she puts it in her
Speaker 1: tongue to kisses Christopher walk In, so like she's kind
Speaker 1: of death. Yeah, she's weaponizing her sexuality, I guess you
Speaker 1: could read it that way, and then taking this weapon
Speaker 1: from people who would do her harm and using it
Speaker 1: against against them.
Speaker 4: Right, because he did try to have the last word
Speaker 4: and tell her she's fired, she tries to kill her
Speaker 4: and runs out of bullets.
Speaker 3: Yeah, with two of her lives remaining, right.
Speaker 1: Right, And yes, we do have to talk about her outfit.
Speaker 1: It is perhaps one of the most forfeiting outfits ever
Speaker 1: to grease the big screen pieces of shiny black leather
Speaker 1: stretched over her body and stable together as if to
Speaker 1: represent the fragile nature of her psyche, or that she's
Speaker 1: barely being whole held together. And the whip, of course,
Speaker 1: so the whip being more about punishing and pain than
Speaker 1: about killing.
Speaker 2: And.
Speaker 1: There was definitely some misogyny in the way critics wrote
Speaker 1: about about her, the shell Fifer and the outfit. Here's
Speaker 1: an example from the Rolling Stone. Off to the side,
Speaker 1: Michael Keaton aka Bruce Wayne aka Batman was enjoying the
Speaker 1: hell out of the moment.
Speaker 2: Oh it was tasty.
Speaker 1: Here was Missus two time Oscar Nomini, Missus Actors actor
Speaker 1: Missus total get it into takes professional held in check
Speaker 1: by a few pounds of wet second latex in a
Speaker 1: pair of pointy years.
Speaker 3: That's a weird comment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they had to cover Michelle Pfeiffer and baby Botter
Speaker 1: before she donned the suit, which they then vacuum packed.
Speaker 4: Yeah, she just recently talked about it during an interview
Speaker 4: and about how awful it was and painful it.
Speaker 2: Was for her.
Speaker 4: So Catwomen Outfit's ranked. So many thought pieces on the
Speaker 4: cat suit. There's different variations. Some see it as embracing
Speaker 4: the sexual objectification of women and weaponizing it, or maybe
Speaker 4: rejecting males superhero garb and thus the patriarchy and leaning
Speaker 4: in hard to the feminine. So Julie Newmar, who I
Speaker 4: really I watched growing up and I'm not that old,
Speaker 4: so I was watching reruns.
Speaker 3: Just want to put that out.
Speaker 4: There before they think I'm it's okay.
Speaker 3: To be that old. I'm not that old. I put
Speaker 3: that out there.
Speaker 4: Julie Numar, who played catwe in her first on screen
Speaker 4: appearance in the nineteen sixties, wrote in a letter to
Speaker 4: the Huffing to Post every girl is a catwoman, there
Speaker 4: will always be a catwoman.
Speaker 3: Catwoman is forever.
Speaker 4: And her costume was perhaps the most tame and the
Speaker 4: most kitten like. It was a black, sparkly suit reminiscent
Speaker 4: of a corset around the waist, complete with a gold belt.
Speaker 3: And of course, cattiers Lee Merriweather, who was in the.
Speaker 4: Movie, wore pretty much the same thing when she played her.
Speaker 4: And then there's Arthur Kit who took over from Newmar.
Speaker 4: She wore the same thing but adjusted the placement of
Speaker 4: the necklace, pulling it higher.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then of course there's Hallie Berry, who played the
Speaker 1: titular character in Catwoman. She wore a push up bra,
Speaker 1: leather gloves, whips, tight leather pants and that's pretty much it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: very dominatrid Dominatrixy. I have not seen this film. I've
Speaker 1: seen parts of it, including the infamous catnip scene, but
Speaker 1: I know it's about an addictive beauty cream targeted towards
Speaker 1: women and play on the facts that all these high
Speaker 1: beauty stands we placed on women, so we probably would
Speaker 1: have a lot to say about it. I also know
Speaker 1: Sharon Stone is the one behind the beauty cream. People
Speaker 1: are like, don't be telling me share a Stone is
Speaker 1: not hot, even if she's older.
Speaker 4: Okay, right, Yes, she is beautiful and hot. And also
Speaker 4: this is the one that won the Razzie. It is
Speaker 4: considered it was considered one of the worst films. It's
Speaker 4: pretty bad ever created. But I think also there was
Speaker 4: all conversation about it being really heavy handed and it
Speaker 4: was trying way too hard. I mean, one of the
Speaker 4: main characters was named Affiliate Powers. Yeah, Affiliate Powers. That's
Speaker 4: come on, y'all, we can do a little better. But
Speaker 4: I guess it could be I was gonna say it
Speaker 4: could be that we're just looking at a different woodlens,
Speaker 4: because all the other ones are fairly heavy handed as well.
Speaker 4: Whether it's some kind of pun whether some kind of
Speaker 4: like over the top whatever.
Speaker 3: But it just yeah, it was not a great movie.
Speaker 3: Made me sad.
Speaker 4: So you've seen it, I've seen parts of it.
Speaker 2: Okay, finish it, Okay, all right.
Speaker 1: Just neither of us have seen it, but from what
Speaker 1: we have seen, yeah, yeah, left somewhere to be bless.
Speaker 2: Some things to be desired.
Speaker 1: And then Anne Hathaway's version, this one, she was meant
Speaker 1: to be the most functional.
Speaker 2: Her outfit was meant to be the most functional.
Speaker 1: It's a black leather stealth suit and the cat ears
Speaker 1: were the points of her night vision fancy crime goggles.
Speaker 2: Her stilettos were weapons.
Speaker 1: I think I've mentioned on the show before I did
Speaker 1: used to cosplay her, and sometimes I still do. And
Speaker 1: my experience was everybody loved that costume, but they also.
Speaker 2: Love telling me that they didn't like Anne Hathaway.
Speaker 3: Oh poor Anne.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've talked about that on this show before, how
Speaker 1: people just don't like Ann Hathaway because they see her
Speaker 1: as prissy. She's vegan, persnickety, but really it seems to
Speaker 1: me she just knows what she wants.
Speaker 4: Well, I was gonna say Natalie would would be the same.
Speaker 4: She's a vegan, all of those things, but she's not
Speaker 4: as disliked, yeah, seemingly as Anne Hathaway is.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's another episode.
Speaker 2: And then we wanted to end with this for our.
Speaker 1: Discussion of Catwoman, and Glorious Dynam's review of The Dark
Speaker 1: Knight and Ann Hathaway's performance read I saw The Dark
Speaker 1: Knight returns last night, and among other things, Catwoman is
Speaker 1: a feminist superhero with the storylined and transformation of her
Speaker 1: own plus class consciousness, a girl buddy, equal skills with
Speaker 1: the Batman equipment, and an apartment of her own an
Speaker 1: old town, and she gets the guy.
Speaker 4: Yes she does.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, that's that's kind of our look. Kit Batman
Speaker 1: returns Catwoman Extra Merry Christmas.
Speaker 2: We do have a little bit more for you, very
Speaker 2: brief run through.
Speaker 1: But first we have a quick break for word from
Speaker 1: her sponsor and we're back, Thank you sponsor, And we're
Speaker 1: back a.
Speaker 2: Little bit with iron Man three. Yes, I'm going to
Speaker 2: blaze through this.
Speaker 4: That's in a minute that I've seen this one too,
Speaker 4: and I'm not gonna lie. I have a hard time
Speaker 4: remembering all.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well I got you, I got you, all right.
Speaker 1: So we open on Blue by Eifel sixty five.
Speaker 2: The year is nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 1: Tony Stark is about to bang a scientist named Maya
Speaker 1: Hanson played by Rebecca Hall, who has this plan all
Speaker 1: about regenerating plants or something. He stands up an awkward
Speaker 1: altra just Killian played by Guy Pearce, and then yes,
Speaker 1: we skip to the present MCU timeline post Avengers as symbol,
Speaker 1: and Tony has built a bunch of Iron Man suits
Speaker 1: and it's Christmas time. One of the first scenes is
Speaker 1: him trying on his new Iron Man suit to jingle bells,
Speaker 1: kind of a sassy version of jingle bells, and Tony
Speaker 1: is clearly distant and struggling with maybe PTSD definitely anxiety
Speaker 1: attacks post New York City and the Avengers, which is
Speaker 1: impacting his relationship with his wife, Pepper Potts. I didn't
Speaker 1: think so, but a lot of places his significant.
Speaker 4: Other okay said they didn't get made until after the
Speaker 4: first Uh.
Speaker 1: That the wedding was in the Avenger Heart one war.
Speaker 1: You're right, so significant other, why I put that? Well,
Speaker 1: I put that originally, but then everywhere I was reading
Speaker 1: said wife, and I was like, oh really, maybe they
Speaker 1: got divorced and then got remarried anyway, whatever, Now not
Speaker 1: so awkward and pretty handsome all Gillian shows up to
Speaker 1: meet Pepper and is very flirtatious with her. Tony's head
Speaker 1: of security suspicious stumbles on mysterious plot gets severely injured.
Speaker 1: At the same time, you have a string of terrorist
Speaker 1: attacks orchestrayed by a villain known as the Mandarin, and
Speaker 1: this has the press clamoring after Tony Stark akrd Man,
Speaker 1: asking him if he's going to do something about it,
Speaker 1: and angry about what happened to his head of security,
Speaker 1: Happy Stark challenges the Mandarin on live TV gives away
Speaker 1: his home address, which I feel like is pretty obvious
Speaker 1: where he lives, but whatever, I guess it's the challenge.
Speaker 2: I don't know. Uh So, when he.
Speaker 1: Arrives home, Pepper is packing and also he has once
Speaker 1: again given her a gift that she clearly doesn't want,
Speaker 1: a huge rabbit custom made. At this point, Maya shows
Speaker 1: up at the door and is like, hey, I think
Speaker 1: my boss works for the Mandarin, And then all these
Speaker 1: missiles start pulling into their house, and Tony is able
Speaker 1: to save Pepper and Maya hadsen Rebecca Hall's character by
Speaker 1: putting them in some of his Ironman suits and blasting
Speaker 1: them out. He manages to escape, but not before his
Speaker 1: suit takes major damage and is pretty much non functional.
Speaker 1: When he lands in the middle of nowhere in Tennessee.
Speaker 2: As he's trying to repair.
Speaker 1: A suit, he meets a young boy who promises to
Speaker 1: help him secure some supplies because everyone thinks Tony is dead.
Speaker 2: And then all right.
Speaker 1: He finds out about this project called Extremists. Extremists that
Speaker 1: Maya was working on with Killian that experimented on injured
Speaker 1: soldiers to regenerate lost limbs or other injuries. But it
Speaker 1: left these soldiers unstable, like I will explode spontaneously on stable.
Speaker 2: Ironman.
Speaker 1: He's like trying to figure out what he's gonna do,
Speaker 1: how he's gonna save the day. He's on the verge
Speaker 1: of a panic attack when the kid says, build something.
Speaker 2: You build things, right, just go build something, So he
Speaker 2: goes back to his roots.
Speaker 1: And as this is happening, Pepper is captured by Maya,
Speaker 1: who is working for Killian and is used in the
Speaker 1: extremist experiment. Killian even tells her that she is a
Speaker 1: trophy when she's strapped into this pod in a sportsbra
Speaker 1: and type pants. Then Tony is captured after he discovers
Speaker 1: that the Mandarin is just an English actor pretending to
Speaker 1: be a terrorist. And this is a big twist in
Speaker 1: the movie because he's a huge villain in the comics.
Speaker 1: Tony is He attempts to break out, but then Maya
Speaker 1: tries to save him when he fails, and then Killian
Speaker 1: just shoots her instead of listening to her because she's like,
Speaker 1: you won't be able to solve your problems without me,
Speaker 1: I'm your scientist, and he just kills her. The President
Speaker 1: has been captured, and this all culminates in a battle
Speaker 1: between a superhuman Killian and his Crony's Tony, his pal
Speaker 1: Iron Patriot played by Don Cheatle, and a bunch of
Speaker 1: automated Iron suits, with the President and Pepper's lives hanging
Speaker 1: literally in balance. The President is saved, but Pepper falls
Speaker 1: into a pit of lava, seemingly to her death.
Speaker 2: Killian is about to kill Tony.
Speaker 1: But then Pepper rises up from the death so hell
Speaker 1: metaphorically and now is all temporarily superpowered. She does some
Speaker 1: ask kicking in like two minutes or less. Then they
Speaker 1: kick ass together. Tony destroys his Iron Man suits and
Speaker 1: removes his arch reactor.
Speaker 2: Day is saved. It's complicated.
Speaker 4: Well, I think you just really wanted to do a
Speaker 4: plant line.
Speaker 1: I was like, I did this before I rewatched it
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh boy, there's so many threads here.
Speaker 4: Alright, so let's talk about action figures.
Speaker 2: Let Sally if you and I had.
Speaker 4: Disgust and you were telling me a lot about this,
Speaker 4: So as you talked about in the Female Action Figures episode,
Speaker 4: Rebecca Hall's character was originally meant to be the main villain,
Speaker 4: but the director was pressured by studio execs that a
Speaker 4: female villain action figure wouldn't sell. And I'm sure those
Speaker 4: Guy Pierce action figures left off the shell. Yeah, right,
Speaker 4: And Marvel Entertainment CEO at the time, Ike Permater said,
Speaker 4: there was an early draft of Iron Man three where
Speaker 4: we had an inkling of a problem, which is that
Speaker 4: we had a female character who was the villain.
Speaker 3: In the draft.
Speaker 4: We had finished the script and we were given no
Speaker 4: holes barred memos saying that cannot stand. And we've changed
Speaker 4: our minds because after consulting, we've decided that those toys
Speaker 4: won't sell as well as it is female. So we
Speaker 4: had to change the entire scripts because of toy making.
Speaker 4: Now that's not Figy, that's Marvel Corporate. But now you
Speaker 4: don't have the problem anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it was really frustrating. I think for a
Speaker 1: lot of people involved in the film. I know Art
Speaker 1: down Junior, it was like, no, you got to give
Speaker 1: it more of a role, and I call it accepted
Speaker 1: it on kind of a different which.
Speaker 4: Happens a lot unfortunately, and especially two women unfortunately.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can see her action figure episode for more
Speaker 1: on that.
Speaker 2: And then I also wanted.
Speaker 1: To say an interesting thing about Pepper Potts is while
Speaker 1: she spends most of her time being damseled in this
Speaker 1: movie and every other iron Man although she is painted
Speaker 1: as an extremely business savvy and competent woman. According to
Speaker 1: some Internet so she kills the most people. She kills
Speaker 1: more people than iron Man on screen. At least she
Speaker 1: kills Ironmonger and Killian. Iron Man has only killed Ebony
Speaker 1: Mah on screen. And then, yeah, I could come back
Speaker 1: and talk about her character because she's painted as sort
Speaker 1: of a nag, like she's never happy with Tony because
Speaker 1: well to the bell draw, Yeah, well that's another thing
Speaker 1: is a lot of people can't separate her from Gwyneth Paltrow.
Speaker 1: She is used to make Tony feel jealous by the villain.
Speaker 1: She does spend most of the movie in distress. She's captured, tortured,
Speaker 1: and experimented on as bait for Tony. And then there's
Speaker 1: a lot of talk about fake feminism and how just
Speaker 1: because she got to kick ass for two minutes or
Speaker 1: less that it's like execs are pointing to it. Look
Speaker 1: how feminist, we are, right, but it ignores everything else, which.
Speaker 3: Was kind of the complaint for Endgame.
Speaker 2: Uh is it end game or is it? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, what is wrong with you today?
Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of movies.
Speaker 4: So within game where they had that one giant scene,
Speaker 4: but they're like, hey, look, women, you did job.
Speaker 2: Earn it? It's just so token? Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure.
Speaker 1: And then Tony the character as well as I mean
Speaker 1: he's a womanizer. He says a lot of things in
Speaker 1: the movie that are not great. There's like a beauty
Speaker 1: pageant that's not explained. There's all these women in bikinis
Speaker 1: running around such as things like that, and then random trivia.
Speaker 2: I didn't know this.
Speaker 1: Robert Downey Junior got injured in the middle of filming
Speaker 1: and was down for the count for six weeks, and
Speaker 1: since they couldn't hold up production for that long, the
Speaker 1: creators made up a completely digital version of him for
Speaker 1: shots that didn't require dialogue our close ups, so you
Speaker 1: can try to find the fake any Stark in there.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that was just a quick look at another
Speaker 1: superhero holiday movie.
Speaker 4: Just a minute, you just want to talk about the MCU.
Speaker 1: I did, I did, And we do have a tiny,
Speaker 1: tiny bit more about the MCU, But first, one more
Speaker 1: quickbreak for a word from our sponsor, and we're back.
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor, and we're back with a special mention
Speaker 1: Spider Verse.
Speaker 2: Spider Man into the Spider Verse.
Speaker 4: Oh y'all, I'm gonna I really am gonna live stream
Speaker 4: I your reaction.
Speaker 1: The joy I feel watching that movie. It's exhilarating. It
Speaker 1: makes my face hurt.
Speaker 4: It's like you're watching it for the first time. I know,
Speaker 4: the shock that you go through, the emotion through the
Speaker 4: whole time.
Speaker 2: And yes, I was.
Speaker 1: This is the movie I chose from movie Crush right,
Speaker 1: the podcast by our friend Chuck. And eventually he had
Speaker 1: to he was like, any we've got to stop talking.
Speaker 2: But I haven't told you about the other things. The
Speaker 2: frame rate. Let me talk more about the frame rate.
Speaker 1: But I did want to mention it because it's one
Speaker 1: of my favorite movies of all time and it takes
Speaker 1: place at Christmas. If you remember, Chris Pine's og Spider
Speaker 1: Man is featured on a holiday album in the movie,
Speaker 1: and the cast actually recorded several holiday songs that you
Speaker 1: can listen to and by if you want, including Spidey,
Speaker 1: It's cold outside, Swing around the Mistletoe, Silent Night, You're welcome,
Speaker 1: joy to the world that I just saved Spidy the
Speaker 1: Snowman is beginning to look a lot like a non
Speaker 1: denominational holiday.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think the only part that I realized it was
Speaker 4: holiday was because that song randomly comes on in the
Speaker 4: security guards room.
Speaker 3: Yes, and then that's it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's a holiday.
Speaker 1: There's snow, there's Christmas trees. If you look, it's diverse,
Speaker 1: it's gorgeous. It has fleshed out female, badass, vulnerable characters
Speaker 1: like Spider gwn.
Speaker 2: Penny Parker antme, what a great villain.
Speaker 3: It was a good villain.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So, Phil Lord and Christopher Miller's goal for the film
Speaker 4: inspire young people to become heroes, inspire grown ups to
Speaker 4: help them do it, and remind us all that you
Speaker 4: don't need to be bitten by radio active spiders.
Speaker 2: Do your part.
Speaker 3: You are powerful, and we are counting on you.
Speaker 4: Yes, I'm pointing to Annie right now.
Speaker 2: Yes, so I want does.
Speaker 1: He say not you necessarily probably better phorkly speaking, No, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: they are counting on you necessarily. But yeah, that's just
Speaker 1: what we wanted to say about some less traditional holidays.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, so there you go.
Speaker 4: Are not so christmas y Christmas movies, which is the
Speaker 4: way I like it. I will tell you once again,
Speaker 4: I do do a lot of like I said, do
Speaker 4: do a lot of horror movies. Yeah, during this time
Speaker 4: because I do not like I'm not a fan of
Speaker 4: the season. I'm not trying to be a grenchsarily, but
Speaker 4: you know, you have to cope with things the way
Speaker 4: you can.
Speaker 3: Cope with it.
Speaker 4: So let us know you're not so Christmas thee Christmas
Speaker 4: movie recommendation. And I would also consider die Hard, which
Speaker 4: I know has been a.
Speaker 2: Debate action movie that takes place at Christmas.
Speaker 4: Yes, and all. A lot of the Harry Potters is
Speaker 4: Christmas movies as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we watched you know, definitely a little bit.
Speaker 4: I feel like the first the first two are the
Speaker 4: ones that I would consider Christmas.
Speaker 3: Happy Christmas. Harry, Yeah, I think he.
Speaker 1: Does it is Christmas at one point and definitely have
Speaker 1: part one though, is it? Yeah, when he goes to
Speaker 1: visit his parents graves, That's.
Speaker 3: Right, That's right.
Speaker 4: So yeah, let us know your recommendations because I would
Speaker 4: love to know more and to watch more movies that
Speaker 4: are not Yes, the Netflix movies that I'm seeing don't.
Speaker 3: I don't want to.
Speaker 1: Watch those, yes, And let us know what we should
Speaker 1: do for our next feminist movie Friday. And also if
Speaker 1: you have any feminist movie thoughts. I know we moved
Speaker 1: through those pret quickly, but so if you have any
Speaker 1: thoughts about them that we missed it, we would love
Speaker 1: to hear them. You can email us at Stuff Media,
Speaker 1: Momstuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You and on Twitter
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our super
Speaker 1: producer and Drew Howard. Thanks to you for listening.
Speaker 2: Steph.
Speaker 1: I've Never Told You's a production of iHeart Radios. How
Speaker 1: Stuff Works. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
Speaker 1: favorite shows.
Speaker 4: Jingle Bills, Batman's Bills, We Laid and Eggs No okay,