Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's filled Courtney with an army of normal folks.
Speaker 1: And now we continue with part two of our conversation
Speaker 1: with Alice Marie Johnson, right after these brief messages from
Speaker 1: our generous sponsors. You know, the daughter of a woman
Speaker 1: who grew up a sharecropper and probably the granddaughter of slaves,
Speaker 1: if I'm doing the your mother was probably the granddaughter
Speaker 1: of actual slaves, right right, who somehow found the good
Speaker 1: in all people. I guess that DNA that filtered down
Speaker 1: to her daughter doesn't surprise me that you would skip
Speaker 1: in prison. She would find some light in the darkest places.
Speaker 1: And so what you do in prison?
Speaker 2: I started writing plays and writing plays, writing plays. That's
Speaker 2: hilarious because I've always loved to write. Yeah, And before
Speaker 2: I went to prison, I did a few little short
Speaker 2: things at church, nothing very long, but I would hear people.
Speaker 2: I just started writing because that was the way that
Speaker 2: I would deal with stuff. And I wrote. I started
Speaker 2: writing little skits and putting on shows in prison. But
Speaker 2: the actual first thing that I did, because they put
Speaker 2: me in BT's vocational technical. Because this woman is unusual,
Speaker 2: she knows. I taught typing, I taught computers.
Speaker 1: You taught other inmates.
Speaker 2: Other inmates.
Speaker 1: Okay, so not everybody that you're around is in for
Speaker 1: life in twenty five. Some got three four five a year,
Speaker 1: So you start teaching.
Speaker 2: To go to get out. My role was to prepare
Speaker 2: them for re entry, so I helped them redo theirs.
Speaker 1: The prison give you this.
Speaker 2: They gave me that role. I worked in vocational technical
Speaker 2: and it's something how once people realize that you can
Speaker 2: do things, they'll give you more to do.
Speaker 1: And experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they realized that once I saw one person
Speaker 2: struggling with their resume, and I wrote them a fire resume,
Speaker 2: and then I got the newspaper and said, these are
Speaker 2: the jobs that you should apply for. They said I don't.
Speaker 2: I say, yes, you do, and so they started using
Speaker 2: me more and more. But then I noticed that the
Speaker 2: women who had long sentences like myself couldn't take the classes,
Speaker 2: and so.
Speaker 1: They were like, don't waste the time on them, because
Speaker 1: so is that why?
Speaker 2: That was exactly why they said.
Speaker 1: They're not them a little hope? That was my.
Speaker 2: Question is how do you tell a woman not to hope?
Speaker 2: How do you tell a person not to prepare for
Speaker 2: a future. So the warden there she really liked me.
Speaker 2: I went to her ward Yeah, the warden, Oh, the warden,
Speaker 2: the warden, the warden, because she had seen things I
Speaker 2: was doing in prison. I was really trying, trying, and
Speaker 2: so I wrote it up as a complaint. I found
Speaker 2: a complaint about that. She calls me to her office
Speaker 2: and I explained why she looked at me. She said, no, Alice,
Speaker 2: she said, missus Johnson. She said, you know, miss Johnson.
Speaker 2: I thought about what you said. You're right, I said,
Speaker 2: you know, warden, her name was warden. Rees. If you
Speaker 2: allow the women to take these classes who have long sentences,
Speaker 2: a lot of them are getting in trouble because they
Speaker 2: don't have anything to look forward to in prison. They
Speaker 2: were getting getting in trouble in prison because they're they
Speaker 2: are shone, not allowed opportunities. So for someone who's already
Speaker 2: broken and you're breaking them more, making them feel worthless.
Speaker 1: Is actually in a prison in prison.
Speaker 2: In a prison in prison. So it changed things on
Speaker 2: that compound.
Speaker 1: It really did, because the long, the long sentenced women,
Speaker 1: regardless of what their crime was and what they did,
Speaker 1: if you gave them something to do and to feel
Speaker 1: effective and purposeful, they quit acting out as much as
Speaker 1: prison because they had something to look forward to.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and so from speaks to humanity. It really does.
Speaker 2: When you can look at someone and say you have value,
Speaker 2: you have work. And even the place that I put on,
Speaker 2: many of the women had never heard applause in their life.
Speaker 2: What mean they have?
Speaker 1: They have never been applause, They've.
Speaker 2: Never been applauded. No one has ever given them applause.
Speaker 2: So to do their part good, to sing, to have
Speaker 2: their artwork on display. Because I didn't do mediocre stuff.
Speaker 2: I would do pageantry. It would look as if they
Speaker 2: were going to a theater on the outside. And when
Speaker 2: I went to the next prison.
Speaker 1: It hold it. How long were you at that prison?
Speaker 2: Only a year? And I shook it. I turned it
Speaker 2: upside down.
Speaker 1: That's phenomenal. We interviewed. Now. I can't help it, but
Speaker 1: you're reminded me of so many things. Dub Ellinger is
Speaker 1: a woman in Detroit who serves food and has homes
Speaker 1: for trafficked and pimped women in Detroit. And the way
Speaker 1: she finds them is she literally goes out into the
Speaker 1: streets and gives them sandwiches and food and clothes. And
Speaker 1: if only for fifteen or thirty minutes, those women opens up,
Speaker 1: have someone to talk to, and they eventually open up.
Speaker 1: But the thing she says that she makes she does
Speaker 1: every time before she leaves, and she looks everyone was
Speaker 1: on in my eyes, and she said, you were loved
Speaker 1: by God and your life has value, and when you
Speaker 1: want to get out of this life, there are people
Speaker 1: that care enough to help you find that value. And
Speaker 1: then they leave. And she said, eventually they come to
Speaker 1: her and they get out of that life because they've
Speaker 1: just never been told by anybody that they have value.
Speaker 1: And you say, it's the same thing. These people have
Speaker 1: never been applauded, they've never been graduated, they've never felt
Speaker 1: good about themselves, they've never been recognized. The power of that.
Speaker 2: The power of even encouragement of showing love to someone
Speaker 2: else who don't even love themselves. When I left there
Speaker 2: after being there a little over a year, I was
Speaker 2: at Carswell, the next prison for fifteen years. And where
Speaker 2: was that in Texas? Fort Worth? When I got there,
Speaker 2: it was so depressing. So many women were in wheelchairs,
Speaker 2: some were blind, some had no legs, some of them
Speaker 2: were mental. In the hospital part. So this was FCI
Speaker 2: Federal Correctional Institute medical It was a medical center, but
Speaker 2: they had built high rises because the female population was
Speaker 2: exploding and less than at that time it was five years,
Speaker 2: but in ten years it had increased by eight hundred
Speaker 2: percent women and they didn't have enough prisons, so they
Speaker 2: had to build high rises at other prisons to bring
Speaker 2: women in. And we were quadruple, quadruple buk four of
Speaker 2: us in this little tight space that you can't even
Speaker 2: stand side by side.
Speaker 1: That's going on in our society, that our prison population
Speaker 1: has increased by eight hundred percent.
Speaker 2: This should tell you something. In the United States, we
Speaker 2: account for less than six percent of the world population,
Speaker 2: but we incarcerate twenty five percent of the world population.
Speaker 2: It's our laws, to be honest with you. A lot
Speaker 2: of it is driven by the private prison industry, their stock.
Speaker 2: When things fail. In two thousand and eight when everything
Speaker 2: was crashing, you know what went up, prison stock. It's
Speaker 2: like trading humanity as.
Speaker 1: A tougher laws. Of course, of course they have.
Speaker 2: They are a very strong group because in their contracts
Speaker 2: when they get a federal contract a private prison facility,
Speaker 2: in the contract, they're guaranteed ninety percent of the bids
Speaker 2: would be filled. And if it drops to eighty percent,
Speaker 2: then the government has to pay them what they're losing.
Speaker 2: So it's like, are they going to lobby against themselves.
Speaker 2: It's not right, but it's what. It's one of the things.
Speaker 2: And there are so many laws on the books now.
Speaker 2: The reciptivism rate, even when people get out, is so
Speaker 2: easy to make have a technical violation and be locked
Speaker 2: back up again. But my life at Carswell, at that
Speaker 2: medical center totally changed because there's a whole building with
Speaker 2: unhealthy women. There's a floor of women who are dying.
Speaker 2: There's a hospice unit. I ended up taking hospice training
Speaker 2: when I discovered that unit, and I would many times
Speaker 2: they would allow them when they got to the end
Speaker 2: of their days, at the very end, they would give
Speaker 2: them the opportunity to ask for an inmate to sit
Speaker 2: with them. Because I was a volunteer, i got trained.
Speaker 2: I never thought i'd do something like that. So I
Speaker 2: was so busy because so many of them would ask
Speaker 2: for me to sit with them.
Speaker 1: And so when you shot, while they died.
Speaker 2: I sat with them. I'd read to them, I sing
Speaker 2: to them why because I was given I was sold
Speaker 2: that I was going to die. But not just because
Speaker 2: of that. To be alone and to die alone with
Speaker 2: no family around you, to me, was about the worst thing.
Speaker 2: They didn't come there to die, they got sick or
Speaker 2: they came in sick, and that was the only medical
Speaker 2: facility for women in the country, so if you were dying,
Speaker 2: you had had to come to carswell, so.
Speaker 1: You got transferred there because the population was the prison
Speaker 1: population was exploding and it had empty beds.
Speaker 2: It had empty beds, so.
Speaker 1: You went there to keep the numbers up.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, a lot of women were still and what they
Speaker 2: called the pipeline. They were in county jails and so
Speaker 2: they could and be moved to a federal facility because
Speaker 2: it wasn't there weren't enough, so they had to build
Speaker 2: more so they could get the women out of the
Speaker 2: jails and get them into a prison cell on federal property.
Speaker 2: So really for me, sitting with women, it was an
Speaker 2: honor for me to be able to help someone transition.
Speaker 2: But it also became when my father passed away, I
Speaker 2: had to stop because it was too emotional for me
Speaker 2: to be with them because my father died suddenly while
Speaker 2: I was gone.
Speaker 1: You said, you never thought you'd find yourself working in hospice,
Speaker 1: but you did it because you just never wanted to
Speaker 1: see anybody pass alone, right, which is so kind really,
Speaker 1: the depth of your kindness, I think again, that's some
Speaker 1: of your mama's DNA coming out in you. But there's
Speaker 1: this one particular story of a Catholic woman that was
Speaker 1: in hospice I think in Texas, right right, share that
Speaker 1: with us well.
Speaker 2: Previously, I would always work in the chapel, volunteering. I'd
Speaker 2: find my way back to the chapel, so I knew
Speaker 2: about the songs that they would sing. And every time
Speaker 2: I would have a new patient, I'd call her my
Speaker 2: patient in hospice. I'd find out, what is your faith?
Speaker 2: Because I want to read to them, I want to
Speaker 2: do something for them. I want to honor their faith. Yes,
Speaker 2: And so this particular woman, she was in a komatose appearance.
Speaker 2: Her mouth was opened, her eyes were staring blankly, and
Speaker 2: when I arrived there to sit with her, they told
Speaker 2: me that she couldn't hear and that she didn't understand,
Speaker 2: that she wasn't comprehending anything. She was in a coma,
Speaker 2: basically a komatose state, and her family were no longer
Speaker 2: visiting her because they couldn't stand to see her looking
Speaker 2: like that. So I found out she was Catholic, so
Speaker 2: I just started singing to her. I was singing a
Speaker 2: lot to the women, or i'd read from their passages.
Speaker 2: I'd keep them, you know, I'd just communicate with them anyway.
Speaker 2: And so while I'm singing ten pea dad, which is Lord,
Speaker 2: have mercy, I'm singing, Oh Lord, have mercy, Oh Lord
Speaker 2: have mercy. As I'm singing Oh Lord, have mercy on me,
Speaker 2: a tear started running down her face, and I walked
Speaker 2: over to her and I started singing again. I stopped
Speaker 2: for a moment, and I said, can you hear me?
Speaker 2: I said, do you understand what I'm saying? I said,
Speaker 2: if you do, blink once, and she blinked, and I said,
Speaker 2: do you want your family to come and visit? I
Speaker 2: said some other things, but I had her blinking. So
Speaker 2: I ran out and got the nurse and I told
Speaker 2: her that this woman is she can hear, she understands.
Speaker 2: She literally was trapped in her body, and they contacted
Speaker 2: the doctor and then they did some other tests with
Speaker 2: her with the same blinking, and her family was able
Speaker 2: to come back to see her, and they spent the
Speaker 2: last days with her, and so was that was just
Speaker 2: really the.
Speaker 1: Power of And if you don't think you can make
Speaker 1: light in the darkest of places like prison, that story
Speaker 1: is metaphorically. I mean, you were able to reunite a
Speaker 1: dying woman with her family when even the trained professionals
Speaker 1: said she was catatonic. They did, and through just some
Speaker 1: genuine care, compassion and love, you were able to communicate
Speaker 1: with I was.
Speaker 2: Able to communicate with her. They knew me for sitting
Speaker 2: with the women when they were in hospice in the Foundays.
Speaker 2: So many women had the opportunity to ask for a
Speaker 2: special one of the special volunteers. That's who they want
Speaker 2: with it. So I spent a lot of time in
Speaker 2: hospice because a lot of them wanted me to sit
Speaker 2: with them. I held their hands.
Speaker 1: So here's an interesting thing I read that you did.
Speaker 1: I think when in Texas Special Olympics in Texas or Housville.
Speaker 2: It was in Texas.
Speaker 1: It's Texas. You wouldn't think of Special Olympics in federal prison.
Speaker 1: But somehow I guess when you make plays and everything
Speaker 1: else you did in prison, why not the Special Olympics.
Speaker 1: But tell me about that.
Speaker 2: There had never been a Special Olympics in prison before.
Speaker 1: Well shocking, but you know, seeing the.
Speaker 2: Women who were on the fringes who were not involved
Speaker 2: with anything, I decided I want to help bring Special Olympics.
Speaker 2: So we created I helped coordinate events for them. Even
Speaker 2: one of the women, I asked her Anna, I said, Anna,
Speaker 2: because she didn't have any legs, she had lost them
Speaker 2: in a car accident before prison. I said, what do
Speaker 2: you miss most about not having your legs? And she said,
Speaker 2: Miss Alice, I miss dancing. So I said, well, you're
Speaker 2: going to dance again. So for part of the entertainment
Speaker 2: for the Special Olympics, to honor them as they were
Speaker 2: getting their medals, Anna danced with me. I created a
Speaker 2: dance to the song never Give Up, and I taught
Speaker 2: her how to use her upper body, and as the
Speaker 2: other women used their legs and the upper body, she
Speaker 2: mimicked and she was in the circle. She was crying.
Speaker 2: It was so beautiful. The Special Olympics National heard about
Speaker 2: the Special Olympics that was being done in a prison,
Speaker 2: so I had no idea that they were coming out.
Speaker 2: So they came out to see our Special Olympics medals
Speaker 2: being awarded and they also saw the entertainment. They also
Speaker 2: saw Anna dance, and so they gave me an award
Speaker 2: called the Special Olympics Coordinator.
Speaker 1: Of the Year Award.
Speaker 2: I've never heard of anything like that. I think they
Speaker 2: made it up, Bill, just to give me something.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back.
Speaker 2: The plays that I would write, I would have to
Speaker 2: do four performances. I would do one that was strictly
Speaker 2: for those in the medical building. If you saw how
Speaker 2: those women would dress up, they dressed up like they
Speaker 2: were going out on the town. Creases on everything, hair done,
Speaker 2: make upon. I'd put little flowers we'd have made on
Speaker 2: their wheelchairs. I used them in different rolls so that
Speaker 2: they could be a part of the rest of the community.
Speaker 2: But my life in prison, I can honestly tell you,
Speaker 2: Bill was not wasted. I was able to bring theater
Speaker 2: I discovered. I would hear they've told my sister, who's
Speaker 2: here with me today. Some of the women would tell
Speaker 2: her that Alice we were when we saw her coming.
Speaker 2: The first thing I say to them is the Lord
Speaker 2: has need of you. That was my getting them. I'd
Speaker 2: hear a voice in the in the dining room and
Speaker 2: I said, I need that's the exact voice I need
Speaker 2: for this role, and so the place became so huge
Speaker 2: that the people on the outside started getting tickets to
Speaker 2: come into the prison. I am not kidding.
Speaker 1: That's great.
Speaker 2: When I left, I just this last prison. I went
Speaker 2: to Aliceville. I got Alabama, in Alabama.
Speaker 1: Which is three and a half four hours southeast, So
Speaker 1: you got home.
Speaker 2: I got closer home. I was there five years cards
Speaker 2: well fifteen the other prison, you know, in some change
Speaker 2: a few months over those years everywhere at the different places.
Speaker 2: But I went back to Aliceville to be their keynote
Speaker 2: speaker at a graduation in October.
Speaker 1: We're going to get to that.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: So you're in Aliceville.
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm in Aliceville, and you're.
Speaker 1: Still doing You're trying to make value of your life
Speaker 1: and affect positively this population that you're a part of. Right,
Speaker 1: They really which is incarcerated women.
Speaker 2: Incarcerated women. They really helped me though, Bill. It's something
Speaker 2: about when you serve other people, when you try to
Speaker 2: encourage them, you encourage yourself.
Speaker 1: Man. We talk about it every single show, But you
Speaker 1: get a thousand times more out of this kind of
Speaker 1: work than you put into it too.
Speaker 2: You honestly do.
Speaker 1: But you're doing that and you're an Aliceville, but you
Speaker 1: still you have no hope of getting out.
Speaker 2: No, I've been trying hope of.
Speaker 1: Life in prison. You're gonna make the best of it.
Speaker 2: But I never stop fighting. I was still foul emotions
Speaker 2: and getting denied. My family was still rock steady right
Speaker 2: there beside me, fighting with me. My daughters went to
Speaker 2: the White House to different convenience. My sisters were doing
Speaker 2: proud visuals, candlelight visuals, bringing attention. So I started, and.
Speaker 1: Nobody says you didn't deserve some jail time. Fortune I
Speaker 1: never say nobody. But all they're saying.
Speaker 2: Is it's too much life.
Speaker 1: And yet in twenty one years, seven months and ten
Speaker 1: days you released. Yes, how did that happen?
Speaker 2: I started speaking at different colleges.
Speaker 1: From prison, which is crazy.
Speaker 2: It's crazy. They skyped me into Yale University to speak
Speaker 2: to the law students and.
Speaker 1: You're speaking about prison reform.
Speaker 2: I'm speaking about clemency. I'm putting my face out here
Speaker 2: and telling my story.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that the prisons would have even allow you
Speaker 1: to do that.
Speaker 2: They did it, It wasn't. In fact, they would clear
Speaker 2: the room and they would tell the other prisoners be
Speaker 2: quiet because miss Johnson is speaking at this place, and
Speaker 2: of course.
Speaker 1: The prisoner knew who you were, so they would actually
Speaker 1: be quiet for you.
Speaker 2: Oh they did. They. I had a lot of children,
Speaker 2: because women at female prisons you don't really have gangs.
Speaker 2: You have families. And I had a bunch of kids.
Speaker 1: All right, So now you're from prison talking about clemency,
Speaker 1: prison reform, truth and sentencing.
Speaker 2: All of this, Students lost students that got you. The conspiracy, yeah,
Speaker 2: all that that ugly word.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so you're talking.
Speaker 2: I'm talking about this, but the prison said, miss Johnson,
Speaker 2: you will let you do these things as long as
Speaker 2: you don't speak negatively about the prison. Well, of course
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do that, because, like Joseph, everything
Speaker 2: that was done was placed in my hand because it
Speaker 2: would be excellent. Even the staff things that they're having events,
Speaker 2: get Miss Johnson to help with some ideals. I'd end
Speaker 2: up getting putting the whole thing together. And so I
Speaker 2: was no trouble. I was never been in trouble in prison.
Speaker 2: I was very trustworthy. The things that I did were
Speaker 2: putting plays on. None of that was ever for sale
Speaker 2: on the compound. I was squeaky clean, as they say,
Speaker 2: a model prisoner. I'm taking all these classes even though
Speaker 2: I have a life sentence. I'm leading the pack getting
Speaker 2: people to sign up for classes. I'm taking them electrical.
Speaker 2: I'm afraid of fire, and I take electrical.
Speaker 1: I said something I've always wondered, Do prison guards know
Speaker 1: what you did? Do they have your rap sheet? So
Speaker 1: even prison guards know.
Speaker 2: They wanted me to go home, That's my question. They
Speaker 2: did the prison guards when I came out, they were
Speaker 2: so happy, they were so happy.
Speaker 1: Prison the guards themselves knew.
Speaker 2: You today they didn't And every time they see someone
Speaker 2: get clemency, get free, they would be so sad and
Speaker 2: it's gonna be your time or either miss Appas say,
Speaker 2: got to see who you are. You have no business
Speaker 2: here and people. I think that gave people a hope too,
Speaker 2: because when they found out, the women who had short
Speaker 2: sentences found out that I had a life sentence, it
Speaker 2: was like, she's either crazy or.
Speaker 1: This lady's crazy. But anyway, you're speaking at college.
Speaker 2: I'm speaking at colleges. I spoke of a YouTube and
Speaker 2: Google event on criminal justice, and someone heard me speak.
Speaker 2: He said. He walked in late but when he walked in,
Speaker 2: he sees me up on this big screen. He hears
Speaker 2: my voice, and he said, we have got to get
Speaker 2: her to do a video op ed. Do you think
Speaker 2: that's possible. I had never done that before, but I
Speaker 2: did the video op ed. It went viral. I didn't
Speaker 2: even know what the word viral meant. I thought I
Speaker 2: had introduced the virus into the Internet.
Speaker 1: But the other thing is do you have access to
Speaker 1: that in the prison?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we had. We had gotten video visitation, okay, and
Speaker 2: so that's what I would be in there doing it
Speaker 2: at a time that people weren't there.
Speaker 1: I got it. So this thing goes viral. It goes viral,
Speaker 1: and somebody whose name we.
Speaker 2: Heard, somebody whose name that many people know, saw it
Speaker 2: to second Day and she saw it and she tweeted out,
Speaker 2: this is so unfair. She retweeted it, and it went
Speaker 2: from being viral to Kim Kardashian made it go superviral,
Speaker 2: over ten million views, and she contacted her attorney to
Speaker 2: find me to ask me if I wanted to get
Speaker 2: out of jail, wanted her to hire her to get
Speaker 2: me out of jail. I saidt me think about it, yes,
Speaker 2: And so you know, the rest is kind of history.
Speaker 1: Kim, Well, hold it. There's a white Kim Kardashian cannot
Speaker 1: get you out of it.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm getting ready to tell you now, that
Speaker 2: history part. Kim contacted Ivanka Trump, who showed my case
Speaker 2: to jet and this is the first time that anyone
Speaker 2: has peeled back the layer and actually read what I did.
Speaker 2: And they went to work. They called themselves Team Alice.
Speaker 2: Kim hired new lawyers. She brought in new lawyers to
Speaker 2: put different set of eyes on it. She brought in
Speaker 2: a local attorney here in Memphis, Mike Show, to see
Speaker 2: what he could do through the courts. And the other
Speaker 2: three were to fight to help prepare clemency paperwork and
Speaker 2: fight for that. So for seven months they kept trying
Speaker 2: to get an audience with President Trump. On my birthday,
Speaker 2: they foundly Gadt and Kim and Sean Holly went to
Speaker 2: the White House and met with the President. And seven
Speaker 2: days later I was running across that road free.
Speaker 1: That day that that you have your prayers answered, and you, honestly,
Speaker 1: most people would have thought never happened, and you get
Speaker 1: out of prison. What was that like for you? Would
Speaker 1: it feel like.
Speaker 2: Well, the day that I got the news that I
Speaker 2: was getting clemency, it was Hamburger.
Speaker 1: Day, Hamburger.
Speaker 2: It was a Wednesday, and that's the only time that
Speaker 2: we got hamburger.
Speaker 1: So I was also a hamburger a treat.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, it was a treat to get a hamburger.
Speaker 1: What was the other food?
Speaker 2: You don't want to know?
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, mystery me.
Speaker 2: Hamburger, Hamburger and chicken Day. We're things that I look
Speaker 2: forward to. But I just wanted to feel normal, and
Speaker 2: the women were so excited because my face is all
Speaker 2: on the news, said it might happen today. And as
Speaker 2: soon as I took that bike bill, they called my
Speaker 2: name to return back to the unit. And when I
Speaker 2: got the news, it was Kim Kardashian who told me
Speaker 2: she thought I knew that I was going home. All
Speaker 2: the women were screaming because I was screaming, And an
Speaker 2: hour and a half later, I heard my name over
Speaker 2: the tercom Alice Marie Johnson report to R and D.
Speaker 1: What's R and D?
Speaker 2: It's released it it's where you get released from. I've
Speaker 2: forgotten what the das it's released. Everyone knows that R
Speaker 2: and D is where you are real.
Speaker 1: So the whole jail knew you're gone.
Speaker 2: They know they knew, so they were screaming. They had
Speaker 2: locked the whole compound down. I didn't know it that
Speaker 2: all these reporters were out there from all over the country.
Speaker 2: They had satellites, so they didn't want they had locked
Speaker 2: everyone down for me to walk across the compound. So
Speaker 2: when I started walking down the stairs, they started stomping. First,
Speaker 2: it was three building. It how sixteen hundred women told them,
Speaker 2: they're all stomping. They're stomping. And as I start going
Speaker 2: down the stairs, they could see me when I cause
Speaker 2: I was on the top. As I'm exiting my building,
Speaker 2: women in every window had their cups beating the window,
Speaker 2: and the stomping got louder and louder and louder. It
Speaker 2: really and truly sounded like an earthquake. It felt like
Speaker 2: the ground was shaking and they were being and it's
Speaker 2: almost like it with one chorus. They were screaming and crying,
Speaker 2: Miss Alice, please don't forget about us. And when I
Speaker 2: took my hands and put it over my heart and
Speaker 2: made the motion that I was ripping my heart out
Speaker 2: and throwing it to them, they went crazy. I'm telling you, Bill,
Speaker 2: I think the ground was moving. And as I walked
Speaker 2: out the door, the officers headed to R and D
Speaker 2: were lined up in two different lines on either side
Speaker 2: of the sidewalk, and they stood attention for me. You're kidding,
Speaker 2: I I'm not kidding.
Speaker 1: What an honor that both inmates and guards alike celebrated
Speaker 1: your release.
Speaker 2: They did. And as we passed through the lower security facility,
Speaker 2: which was a camp, the same scene. All of the
Speaker 2: women had left out of the camp because it was
Speaker 2: a minimum out. They weren't locked up. They were all
Speaker 2: out there with the guards. They were waving once again,
Speaker 2: guards standing as I'm passing by, and the women were screaming,
Speaker 2: saying I love you, miss Alice. Don't forget about us.
Speaker 2: Even one of the ladies who came has come home now.
Speaker 2: I didn't know what happened, but she fainted.
Speaker 1: She was so overcome, And you made good on your word.
Speaker 1: You hadn't forgot about it.
Speaker 2: I have not fighting every day, for fighting every day for.
Speaker 1: Do you pinch yourself?
Speaker 2: I do still. I'm gonna tell you, Bill, the thing
Speaker 2: that really lets me know that I'm really free, it's
Speaker 2: when I wake up in the morning. I do this
Speaker 2: every morning. I don't just jump up unless the phone
Speaker 2: is ringed on some crisis is going on. I just
Speaker 2: lay in my bed and look at the ceiling. I
Speaker 2: do this every single morning. I look at the ceiling
Speaker 2: because along looking in a bunk bed over my head,
Speaker 2: and that kind of centers me that I really am free.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after twenty one years, seven months
Speaker 1: and ten days in prison that you might should have
Speaker 1: been in prison for two years for maybe do you
Speaker 1: ever dream or have flashbacks that you're still there?
Speaker 2: Yes, I do.
Speaker 1: That's trauma, it is.
Speaker 2: There are certain things that I didn't realize how badly
Speaker 2: I could be triggered, because when I came out, I
Speaker 2: immediately started fighting for the freedom of others. Sometimes when
Speaker 2: I read others cases to really get into the meet
Speaker 2: of how I'm going to fight for them, that would
Speaker 2: trigger me into a nightmare. Something that gave me one
Speaker 2: of the worst nightmares though, was on October the seventh.
Speaker 1: Of what year this year? Okay, the war?
Speaker 2: When I saw the captives. I went to bed and
Speaker 2: I was.
Speaker 1: Sweet, mean Israel and you saw the the Hamaska is
Speaker 1: catching the Israel.
Speaker 2: Yes, when I saw this woman they had captured, and
Speaker 2: I was shaking. I went to sleep that night and
Speaker 2: I was that woman and I woke up. That was
Speaker 2: the first time I have not just had a regular nightmare,
Speaker 2: but had a crying, such a crying nightmare. I was
Speaker 2: so broken. I woke myself up sobbing from seeing that.
Speaker 1: There's a reason, I asked, I have to believe that
Speaker 1: that's largely universe among people who spent an extended period
Speaker 1: of time in jail.
Speaker 2: It has it. There's no way that you can. It
Speaker 2: is trauma to spend that time in prison and to
Speaker 2: think that you just come out and you can you know,
Speaker 2: some people say, don't look back. I have not only
Speaker 2: looked back, I've gone back.
Speaker 1: And how can you How can I get the I
Speaker 1: get the perspective of don't look back, your life's ahead
Speaker 1: of you whatever. But that's almost in the same vein
Speaker 1: of if you're broken of the hood and you want
Speaker 1: something off of your life, just pull yourself up by
Speaker 1: your bootstraps. Which that sounds good, sounds good, but that
Speaker 1: ain't the way it works.
Speaker 2: It's not. Because we're hereing and we have memory, you can't.
Speaker 2: I can't just erase my memory. But for me, Bill,
Speaker 2: I actually did find purpose in prison. I actually did
Speaker 2: find forgiveness others and forgiveness for myself too, having gone
Speaker 2: there and been away from my children.
Speaker 1: So when we first started talking, I said, repeated, actually,
Speaker 1: something you told me before we went live, which is
Speaker 1: your story is phenomenal. And everybody who's listened every day
Speaker 1: we've talked about right now, not only is it a
Speaker 1: lesson of redemption, it's a lesson of forgiveness, self forgiveness, determination,
Speaker 1: being steadfast. It's a lesson of egos and family and addiction, sorrow,
Speaker 1: loss of a child. It's just, you know, your life
Speaker 1: is a lesson of just so much. But when I
Speaker 1: asked you to put it in an elevator, bitch, you said,
Speaker 1: and I'll repeat now, you want to humanize those who
Speaker 1: are current society doesn't often necessarily humanize. And the reason
Speaker 1: I asked you do you have flashbacks of the trauma
Speaker 1: of incarceration. Everything else is because we talk about recidivism
Speaker 1: and why And you know, the same PTSD that affects
Speaker 1: marines and folks in our army when they come back
Speaker 1: from war and they have a problem reacclimating back to
Speaker 1: a non military society. That PTSD of that and a
Speaker 1: former incarcerated returning citizen. The two PTSDs are different, for sure,
Speaker 1: and the circumstances under which those people receive that trauma
Speaker 1: is different. I'm not likening someone who served our country
Speaker 1: in the military to a prisoner in that regard, but
Speaker 1: the level of PTSD can be the same. It can
Speaker 1: be and re entry and getting rid of that trauma,
Speaker 1: even though you owed a data society, once that debt
Speaker 1: society is paid. Where's society are supposed to be forgiving?
Speaker 1: We're society are supposed to say, Okay, you did your job,
Speaker 1: you did your time, But how does that person reacclimate
Speaker 1: and how can they reacclimate when they are not in fact.
Speaker 2: Humanost That's true. That's why I believe that I've been
Speaker 2: given this honor of this huge platform because of the
Speaker 2: way that I came home, the people who was involved
Speaker 2: when I came home, but also the work that I've
Speaker 2: done since I came home. I made a promise to
Speaker 2: the women when I left that I would never forget
Speaker 2: about them. I would never stop fighting for them. That
Speaker 2: fight includes fighting for their children too, to stay out
Speaker 2: of not to go to prison, And so I've really
Speaker 2: lived up to that. I've been honored all over the world.
Speaker 2: Honored at the United Nations as one of four women's
Speaker 2: rights defenders, the only one from North America on International
Speaker 2: Women's Day. I've been honored by Ebony magazine as one
Speaker 2: of the one hundred most Powerful Blacks of America. I've
Speaker 2: spoken on the Essence Power stage. I've spoken in other stages.
Speaker 2: I went to Tokyo not long ago and someone, one
Speaker 2: of the Dignitary's wives, recognized me and invited me to
Speaker 2: come back and help them lunch. Criminal Justice Reform for
Speaker 2: women the first one. So my voice has reached many.
Speaker 2: My fight has been sincere There's no way that I
Speaker 2: could go come out of that and just go and
Speaker 2: just live life and have a good time and know
Speaker 2: that there are people, women and men who are depending
Speaker 2: upon me to be out here reminding people that there
Speaker 2: are people just like me, that I'm not unique. There
Speaker 2: are other people too who deserve a second chance. We
Speaker 2: are a country that extends we want grace. We are
Speaker 2: a country of second chances, a country that believes in redemption,
Speaker 2: but somehow bill when it comes to prisoners, that same
Speaker 2: grace is not extended. Instead of saying this person by
Speaker 2: their name. They'll say that's a bank robber, and then
Speaker 2: they dropped their heads in shame. Or that was that
Speaker 2: former drug dealer. I saw some kids, some young men,
Speaker 2: when I first got on what they call kan air.
Speaker 2: This young man looked in my eyes. I was on
Speaker 2: my way to prison, and he didn't even look as
Speaker 2: though he was old enough to shave. He would shockle
Speaker 2: because we had wig shackles, rich shackles, ankle shackles. Some
Speaker 2: had on black boxes also, and our eyes caught for
Speaker 2: just one moment. I wish I knew that could find
Speaker 2: that young man, because it was that look in his
Speaker 2: eyes and that just tear that rolled. He couldn't stop it,
Speaker 2: just looking at me. I don't know who I reminded
Speaker 2: him of. And then he just shook his head and
Speaker 2: he kept shuffling on back to the back of the
Speaker 2: plane as we were being transported. I never forgot his
Speaker 2: face and the look in his eyes, and I thought
Speaker 2: that was some kid. I don't know what he did,
Speaker 2: but somewhere someone dropped him and then pick him up.
Speaker 2: He fell through somebody's crack.
Speaker 1: He probably never heard any applause.
Speaker 2: She probably never heard it any applause. And I have
Speaker 2: thought about him over the years, over and over, and
Speaker 2: sometimes Bill, when I'm so tired, I can put images
Speaker 2: back in my head that keeps driving me because I've
Speaker 2: been given the gift of freedom.
Speaker 1: Talk to me about the importance of the First Step Act.
Speaker 2: The First Step Act was actually the first, the most
Speaker 2: significant criminal justice reform in thirty years, and bipartisan.
Speaker 1: By the way, look what our country did. They got
Speaker 1: bipartisan at least one thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the reason they called me the face of
Speaker 2: it because my release. When people saw me, when the
Speaker 2: president saw me, it changed hearts because I was not
Speaker 2: the stereotypical.
Speaker 1: And ironically enough, this President Trump were talking about. Yes,
Speaker 1: and a very divided, democratically controlled Congress that we're talking about,
Speaker 1: they came together.
Speaker 2: To overwhelmingly passed it. And even when President Trump was
Speaker 2: endorsing it, he said, I asked for sentencing reform because
Speaker 2: I don't want there to be another Alice Johnson. And
Speaker 2: for that, over thirty thousand people have come home early.
Speaker 2: And contrary to what is being said, they are not
Speaker 2: the reason for the crime problem.
Speaker 1: They're not, really, they are not.
Speaker 2: So let me give you these statistics. Please do of
Speaker 2: crime that has taking place in America. Those who came
Speaker 2: out on the First Step Act account for point zero
Speaker 2: one four three percent, not even a half a point
Speaker 2: point zero one four percent of the people who are
Speaker 2: incarcerated are going to one day come home because they're
Speaker 2: going to be finished with their sentences. Would you rather
Speaker 2: them come out through the First Step Act? That make
Speaker 2: sure that they have gone through re entry programs, they're
Speaker 2: prepared to re enter society. They don't just open the
Speaker 2: door and say go home on the First Step Act.
Speaker 2: They have to be carefully vetted to make sure that
Speaker 2: they don't pose a safety risk in the community, to
Speaker 2: make sure that they have the skills necessary to get
Speaker 2: a job. They connect them with others out there. They
Speaker 2: do a lot of things for the people coming home
Speaker 2: on the First Step Act. So, for those who are
Speaker 2: crying to repeal the First Step at it is idiocracy,
Speaker 2: It is insane.
Speaker 1: It is duplicit as stupidity. It is for anyone, and
Speaker 1: it's I know somewhere there's power and money behind those decisions,
Speaker 1: because it's always got vower money.
Speaker 2: It's got to be.
Speaker 1: But I couldn't agree with you more. It is stupid
Speaker 1: because if you're let out under the First Step Act,
Speaker 1: you were probably going to be cleaner than folks that
Speaker 1: had ever served any time. You do it right.
Speaker 2: Their recentivism rate is less than a fourth of those
Speaker 2: who are coming home anyway, and many of those are
Speaker 2: technical violations that send them back to prison. They would
Speaker 2: want everyone to go through what the people have to
Speaker 2: go through who come out on the First Step Act.
Speaker 2: So I I'm really champion championing their causes in the
Speaker 2: process of telling the stories success stories of people who've
Speaker 2: came out and made good of their second chance, because
Speaker 2: somehow we have got to come back the narrative that
Speaker 2: we need to go back to a punitive and not
Speaker 2: a restorative type of model, because that is what we
Speaker 2: need in this country right now. We are not the
Speaker 2: worst country in the world, but our criminal justice issues
Speaker 2: sure to the rest of the world, says that we
Speaker 2: are the most evil counture in the world to incocerate
Speaker 2: twenty five percent of the whole world. I am not
Speaker 2: a hopeless person, me neither. I still believe. I still
Speaker 2: believe in this nation.
Speaker 1: We can't fix though what we don't understand.
Speaker 2: We can't. But you know it starts with us.
Speaker 1: You mean normal folks. Folks, we'll be right back. Tell
Speaker 1: me about TAG.
Speaker 2: TAG is an organization that I formed in twenty twenty
Speaker 2: when KOBD hit because I was working on clemings. Yes,
Speaker 2: and I had to be able to find the people.
Speaker 2: It's called taking action for good. And I was able
Speaker 2: to help so many people get their freedom because they
Speaker 2: found me. I didn't have to go out and find them.
Speaker 2: And then once I started seeing success, the first three
Speaker 2: people who I helped gain their freedom with three of
Speaker 2: my good friends in prison who didn't even know I
Speaker 2: was working to help them gain their freedom. Wow, And
Speaker 2: I started getting all of these petitions. No they have
Speaker 2: not you know, we don't allow them to.
Speaker 1: What do you do? Do not allow them to?
Speaker 2: The ones who have come home, they become mentors for
Speaker 2: the ones who are just coming home, so they have contact,
Speaker 2: they have someone that they can ask what do I
Speaker 2: do in this situation? That absolutely, but just even more
Speaker 2: so than that, they were so vetted and we were
Speaker 2: so connected with their families. And even now I've met
Speaker 2: with different governors. I met with one governor and I
Speaker 2: spoke talk to him about Jerryatric clemency for those who've
Speaker 2: aged out of criminality who posed no risks, and he
Speaker 2: let them go on his way out the door. And
Speaker 2: I've been able to meet It's something when you meet
Speaker 2: with someone, you look them in their eyes and you
Speaker 2: remind them, remind them because some have had a bad
Speaker 2: experience and they forget that we live in an imperfect world.
Speaker 2: It's so easy to say, this one over here came
Speaker 2: out in the First Ship Act. Let me hold this
Speaker 2: up as a reason you don't need to do it.
Speaker 2: Or this one over here reoffended. Let me hold this up.
Speaker 2: So easy to become jaded.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one in.
Speaker 2: Not many, but it's easy to become jaded.
Speaker 1: I want to give you an opportunity to speak to
Speaker 1: the devil's advocate that I'm going to give you right now. Okay,
Speaker 1: crime is out of control in many of our cities,
Speaker 1: and in Memphis it's up, and I mean it's up.
Speaker 1: It's up New York, it's up, Chicago, it's up. Crime
Speaker 1: is up. I mean the fact is, crime is up,
Speaker 1: and the criminals are getting younger and younger, and frankly,
Speaker 1: it's a little scary. It's getting more and more violent
Speaker 1: at a lot of places. And we see stories all
Speaker 1: the time of smashing grabs, and in San Francisco, thirty
Speaker 1: people breaking out the door of Macy's and running in
Speaker 1: and grabbing stuff and leaving, and jewelers getting broken in
Speaker 1: the middle of the day and they're smashing a grabbing
Speaker 1: and taking jewelry. And you know, at some point, a
Speaker 1: law abiding, tax paying trying to do it right, raise
Speaker 1: your children, do the right thing. Citizens world surrounded by
Speaker 1: all of us, gets scared. And when they're scared, they
Speaker 1: default to the easy thing, which is Bill mooregells, lock
Speaker 1: them up and keep them there forever, because you can't
Speaker 1: do anything well. Quote these people you want to speak to.
Speaker 2: That to paint everyone with this broad brush is so
Speaker 2: wrong And just like the failed I'm gonna repeat that again,
Speaker 2: the failed war on drugs, that is not the answer.
Speaker 2: That is not the answer with the smash and grabs.
Speaker 2: Is you've got to get in. We've got to not
Speaker 2: be afraid. We've got to take the lead us grown folks.
Speaker 2: We've got to take the lead. And it starts with
Speaker 2: one community at a time. So you see, we're looking
Speaker 2: at this as a whole and we think we can't
Speaker 2: do anything.
Speaker 1: It's a problem so huge, it's so.
Speaker 2: Big, fear will paralyze you from making that first step
Speaker 2: of just Okay, I'm gonna work in my neighborhood. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna start with my neighborhood. I'm not gonna try to
Speaker 2: solve the problems of every city in America. I'm gonna
Speaker 2: start with my neighborhood. And let's us gather these kids up.
Speaker 2: Let's us start doing something. Let's us start showing them
Speaker 2: a better way. Let us get in their heads, and
Speaker 2: let's find out what's driving them to do this. If
Speaker 2: you can break up the kids and not just let
Speaker 2: them go and say glad, it's not my kid, it
Speaker 2: is your kid, because it's your neighborhood.
Speaker 1: And it will be your problem, and.
Speaker 2: It will be your problem. We I'm gonna repeat what
Speaker 2: you what you saying for what ordinary people can do.
Speaker 2: I know the power of the ordinary person. We're not
Speaker 2: trying to be heroes, we're not trying to be famous.
Speaker 2: We're just trying to make whatever difference we can make.
Speaker 2: And it really it has to be us saying, yes,
Speaker 2: I'm tired, I'm scared, but that's fear. It's going to
Speaker 2: drive me to be a part of what's going to
Speaker 2: be the solution for Memphis.
Speaker 1: And clearly, if we're six percent of the world's population
Speaker 1: and have twenty five percent of the total prison population
Speaker 1: of the world and our crime is doubling, what we're
Speaker 1: doing now ain't working.
Speaker 2: It's not worth it.
Speaker 1: So just like the laws I talked about that keep
Speaker 1: families broke up, just like the truth and sentencing stuff
Speaker 1: that is scary, Just like the mandatory drug laws. Well intentioned,
Speaker 1: but they ain't working. So let's try something else.
Speaker 2: And there are answers, but each community has a different answer.
Speaker 2: Someone who's listening tonight is somebody's answer and they don't
Speaker 2: even realize it.
Speaker 1: That's beautiful one. I'm so inspired by you. What are
Speaker 1: you doing now? What are you doing today? What are
Speaker 1: you doing this week? What's on the agenda? What's next? Oh?
Speaker 2: My agenda. I have a big family, A lot of
Speaker 2: them are coming in for Christmas. Yep, we're gonna have
Speaker 2: Christmas Dinner together. Then we're gonna have two days later,
Speaker 2: we're gonna have a little Christmas swore. Ray for grown folks.
Speaker 1: You gotta be over.
Speaker 2: Thirty to come.
Speaker 1: There ain't nothing wrong with that. Can anybody in your
Speaker 1: family cook like your mama?
Speaker 2: I cook pretty good.
Speaker 1: Now, really, what you're cooking? Are you cooking for Christmas?
Speaker 2: I'm cooking turkey. I may make breads, I make desserts.
Speaker 2: I love to bake. So I'm a good old biscuit maker.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So one of them days they gonna come over to
Speaker 2: my house and they gonna have some salmon crow kiss
Speaker 2: and biscuits and some smothered potatoes and pork chops smothered
Speaker 2: and gravy.
Speaker 1: My wife, Yeah, make some of the best fried pork chops. Oh,
Speaker 1: I love it, Bravy. I can need a mess of
Speaker 1: out until I want to die. That's so good, you.
Speaker 2: Know, Bill, I really I know you asked me a
Speaker 2: little bit, but I just would like to ask the
Speaker 2: listeners if they like to support some of the work
Speaker 2: that I do.
Speaker 1: Wow, I'm going next.
Speaker 2: But support us at Taking actionfo good dot org.
Speaker 1: If someone wants to get involved with you, how do
Speaker 1: they reach you?
Speaker 2: They can reach me through I tech website. Just shoot
Speaker 2: me a note. I can put them to work.
Speaker 1: If someone out there has someone that's been in prison
Speaker 1: far too long for something that they got it not
Speaker 1: that they didn't earn the charge, but the sentencing is
Speaker 1: too long and they're languishing in prison for something that
Speaker 1: they have served their time for. Can they reach out
Speaker 1: to you and find out how to absolutely.
Speaker 2: Can taking actionfo good dot org. They can email tell
Speaker 2: us about the case. Someone will answer them and I'll
Speaker 2: get some details for them. But we really do need
Speaker 2: some support right now because we are scaling up because
Speaker 2: my next frontier, in addition to that, is going to
Speaker 2: be I'm coming for the children to help them. I
Speaker 2: want to be part of the answer right here in Memphis,
Speaker 2: righting Olive Branch. I want to be someone's answer.
Speaker 1: The power of an army of normal people, from the
Speaker 1: daughter of a sharecropper to someone who's been in front
Speaker 1: of the United Nations and governors and Kim Kardashian and
Speaker 1: the Trumps and was the center of probably the most
Speaker 1: effective bipartisan legislation we've had. We've figured out how to
Speaker 1: muster in the last eight years. Alice Johnson, you are amazing.
Speaker 1: You're redempt of your inspirational and I just cannot thank
Speaker 1: you for your time.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Coach Bill. I didn't expect to have this honor,
Speaker 2: to be right here with mister undefeated himself. For Goshlcolm, Look,
Speaker 2: I'm telling you. I'm telling you I'm a little starstruck.
Speaker 1: Dope be starstrucks, Yes, a little bit. Thanks for thanks
Speaker 1: for being with us, and Merry Christmas and Happiness Christmas
Speaker 1: to you too. Thank you, and thank you for joining
Speaker 1: us this week. If Alicebrae Johnson or another guest has
Speaker 1: inspired you in general, or better yet, to take action
Speaker 1: by donating, to taking action for good, by serving prisoners,
Speaker 1: by fighting for criminal justice reform, or something else entirely,
Speaker 1: please let me know. I'd love to hear about it.
Speaker 1: You can write me anytime at Bill at normalfolks dot us,
Speaker 1: and I'm telling you I will respond and keep emailing
Speaker 1: us all the story ideas. It's been unbelievably helpful and
Speaker 1: satisfying to tell these stories that come organically from you
Speaker 1: the army. And if you enjoyed this episode, share it
Speaker 1: with friends that are on social, subscribe to the podcast,
Speaker 1: rate and review it, become a premium member at normalfolks
Speaker 1: dot us. All of these things that will help us
Speaker 1: grow an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney. I'll
Speaker 1: see you next week.