Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. We wish
Speaker 1: you well in the upcoming year. We wanted to, as
Speaker 1: we said, take some time off for the week. I'm
Speaker 1: going on a couple of adventures. I think the rest
Speaker 1: of us are too. In the meantime, One thing we
Speaker 1: can tell you is that this classic episode stands out
Speaker 1: to us because people kept digging up former president James K.
Speaker 2: Polk. Leave James K. Polk alone his desiccated corpse. Yeah,
Speaker 2: why did they do this? You might ask, Well, why
Speaker 2: don't you stay tuned to find out in this classic episode.
Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Let's open today's
Speaker 1: show with a tiny bit of trivia. My name is
Speaker 1: Ben and I was actually born in Nashville.
Speaker 2: My name is Nola, and I have been to Nashville once,
Speaker 2: but my driver's license expired, so I didn't get to
Speaker 2: go to any of the sweet honky tonks.
Speaker 1: Oh that's a shame, you know. We should go to
Speaker 1: Nashville together. We should take a road trip. It's a
Speaker 1: pretty swell place. You'd like it.
Speaker 2: No, I like the street. I bought a hot dog.
Speaker 2: All my friends went to Robert's Western World which is
Speaker 2: apparently the spot where all of the grizzled Nashville session
Speaker 2: guys just show up at two in the afternoon and
Speaker 2: play till three in the morning, just like you do.
Speaker 2: And I really felt like I missed out on something.
Speaker 2: But I'll tell you what I did not miss out
Speaker 2: on a bit. Well, what's that I recently returned from
Speaker 2: a work trip to Los Angeles where I happened upon
Speaker 2: a little place called the Museum of Death.
Speaker 1: Oh, yes, you went.
Speaker 2: I did go. Refused, and I'm not going to talk
Speaker 2: too much about this, but they do not allow photo
Speaker 2: for good reason. It's quite grizzly, quite upsetting. And they
Speaker 2: had a whole section with funereal artifacts, embalming tools, and
Speaker 2: they had a quite impressive collection of coffins. And I
Speaker 2: only bring this up because today we're talking about digging
Speaker 2: up bodies. That is the base level for my segue, right.
Speaker 1: So, for everybody wondering, Ben, why are you giving us
Speaker 1: personal information about Nashville, Noel, why are you telling us
Speaker 1: about coffinry, It's because those two things do have an
Speaker 1: alarming and we think fascinating connection point here in today's episode,
Speaker 1: if you visit the Tennessee State Capitol in Nashville. You'll
Speaker 1: see President Andrew Johnson, who's got sort of this wind
Speaker 1: swept thing, kind of prefiguring Claire all herbal essences commercials, a.
Speaker 2: Bit of a fabio look, if we're being honest. And
Speaker 2: then you have the other Andrew. That would be Jackson
Speaker 2: sitting astride his trustees steed in rearing back kind of pose,
Speaker 2: looking a little bit windswept himself, but with a little
Speaker 2: bit more of an.
Speaker 1: Edge to him, a little panash. I believe he's tipping
Speaker 1: his hat. Here's the thing, folks. Neither of those presidents
Speaker 1: are actually buried at the Tennessee State Capitol, but those
Speaker 1: statues are so prominent that they've become local landmarks. And
Speaker 1: there's another important thing, because it turns out they overshadow
Speaker 1: another president.
Speaker 2: That's right, poor James K. Polk the US is eleventh president,
Speaker 2: who along with his wife Sarah, are currently buried on
Speaker 2: those grounds of the Tennessee State Capitol. And a very
Speaker 2: modest compared to the giant sweeping statues, a modest structure
Speaker 2: that is kind of flanked by these columns, and it
Speaker 2: was actually designed by the same architect that designed the
Speaker 2: US state capitol in kind of a Greek style.
Speaker 1: And as we record today's episode, turns out that Sarah
Speaker 1: and James may not be located there much longer. You see,
Speaker 1: there's a movement to disinterer or exhuom the Polk couple
Speaker 1: and move them about fifty miles away to their family's
Speaker 1: historic home, which is actually in a town called Columbia.
Speaker 2: Very close to Murfreesboro. If I'm not mistaken, is there
Speaker 2: r silent in Murfreesboro.
Speaker 1: I've always I've always kind of been winging it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we get some we got some great pronunciation emails earlier,
Speaker 1: I believe in the show. So help us out this time, folks,
Speaker 1: Murfreesboro versus murphy Feesborough. Yeah, that is the question.
Speaker 2: But Columbia is in fact a pretty small town near
Speaker 2: Murphysboro that is largely known for its yearly Mule Festival.
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of festivals, man, and it's time
Speaker 1: that the mule finally got its due. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean it's more than just a little horse, right,
Speaker 2: And I mean.
Speaker 1: Just because it's a relatively small species doesn't mean it's
Speaker 1: not a big deal. Technically, a mule is the offspring
Speaker 1: of a male donkey and a female horse, so it's
Speaker 1: a different species that's interesting.
Speaker 2: Only mentioning this to show that, you know, Columbia charming
Speaker 2: place to live, I'm sure.
Speaker 1: But Broadway it's not Broadway.
Speaker 2: It is not not a whole lot of tourist attractions
Speaker 2: for this city, and I think there are some that
Speaker 2: hope that might change with the movement to move said
Speaker 2: presidents remains right.
Speaker 1: So Polk was born in North Carolina in seventeen ninety five,
Speaker 1: but his family did eventually move to the Tennessee Frontier,
Speaker 1: where his father built a home there in Columbia in
Speaker 1: eighteen sixteen, and because he lived there for several years
Speaker 1: as a ute as an adolescent, the home now serves
Speaker 1: as the James K. Polk Museum. And this happens very
Speaker 1: often here in the United States. I don't know whether
Speaker 1: it's the case in other countries, but in our neck
Speaker 1: of the Global Woods, a famous, historically influential person just
Speaker 1: has to spend time and a location for it to become,
Speaker 1: you know, their ancestral home or their museum. It doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be the place where Mark Twain rag or
Speaker 1: Allan Poe was born necessarily. It could be the home
Speaker 1: where Mark Twain lived or Samuel Clemens lived in I
Speaker 1: think Springfield, Connecticut. You know, he wasn't a kid there.
Speaker 1: That's that's where he lived and lost a bunch of
Speaker 1: money betting on terrible inventions.
Speaker 2: Niche. But let's let's get knock at two ahead of ourselves.
Speaker 2: What was Poke known for? Ben He was only one
Speaker 2: term president, but accomplished a pretty scene amount of stuff, right, he.
Speaker 1: Did some great stuff. I want to open with his nicknames, though,
Speaker 1: because I think they're hilarious. Every president has a bunch
Speaker 1: of nicknames, and just a few of James Knox Polk's
Speaker 1: nicknames would be Napoleon of the Stump and Young Hickory.
Speaker 2: And the reason he was Young Hickory was because when
Speaker 2: he was Speaker of the House really trumpeted his mentor
Speaker 2: Andrew Jackson's policies, and that informed a lot of what
Speaker 2: he would accomplish as president in terms of really pushing
Speaker 2: hard for this manifest destiny idea of expanding the United
Speaker 2: States borders to the Pacific that we will get into
Speaker 2: that shortly. That was one of the accomplishments. But Old
Speaker 2: Hickory was Andrew Jackson's nickname, and so that he was
Speaker 2: his boy, Little Hickory, Young Hickory.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was definitely a protege.
Speaker 2: So Polk had actually been a lawyer, and while he
Speaker 2: was in law school, he clerked for the state Senate,
Speaker 2: and then in eighteen twenty three he got elected to
Speaker 2: the ten the Seahouse of Representatives and was re elected
Speaker 2: a whopping six times, where he eventually became the Speaker,
Speaker 2: and that's when he was able to really champion Andrew
Speaker 2: Jackson's various political positions and got that nickname Young Hickory.
Speaker 2: He actually went on to become Tennessee's ninth governor.
Speaker 1: And in eighteen forty four he became President of the
Speaker 1: United States. He was forty nine years old, which sounds,
Speaker 1: you know, like a pretty cool batting average now, but
Speaker 1: at the time he was the youngest candidate ever to
Speaker 1: become president.
Speaker 2: So there's a there's a star, gold Star forum. Definitely
Speaker 2: young Hickory, totally young Hickory for days. He also re
Speaker 2: established the treasury system, which was kind of a precursor
Speaker 2: to what we have today under the Federal Reserve. He
Speaker 2: created the Naval Academy, and legislation that he signed actually
Speaker 2: established the creation of the Smithsonian Institution, which is responsible
Speaker 2: for preserving artifacts and American culture.
Speaker 1: And it is free to is it. Additionally, let's see
Speaker 1: what's the best way to say this. During his administration,
Speaker 1: the very first US postage stamp was issued, which is
Speaker 1: still a big deal today for philitalists in the crowd.
Speaker 2: Pinnag you just pull that word right off the top
Speaker 2: of your dome.
Speaker 1: Sort of, but I didn't make it up. It is
Speaker 1: the fancy word for stamp collectors. Yeeh.
Speaker 2: I should have guessed that, but that is a weird
Speaker 2: one for me.
Speaker 1: Voluminous is the fancy word for matchbook collectors. I am
Speaker 1: full of cartoonishly specific words. But we are talking about
Speaker 1: specific and historically significant actions by the eleventh President.
Speaker 2: And there's the real big one that we hinted that
Speaker 2: earlier with this whole idea of manifest destiny, which was
Speaker 2: the notion that the US should basically colonize other places.
Speaker 2: And during the Mexican American War, James K. Polk pushed
Speaker 2: pretty damn hard to make that happen and had some success, didn't.
Speaker 1: He, Yes, he did. He He was instrumental in expanding
Speaker 1: the territory of the United States by more than eight
Speaker 1: hundred thousand square miles, which means it goes all the way.
Speaker 1: This is where it became a sea to Shining Sea country.
Speaker 2: Yeah. In eighteen thirty six, Texas, which was at the
Speaker 2: time ruled by Mexico, was given independence and it was
Speaker 2: not initially incorporated into the Union. And this became an
Speaker 2: issue after that and continuous raids by the Mexican government,
Speaker 2: And then in eighteen forty four when Polk was elected,
Speaker 2: he pushed really hard to re annex Texas, which is
Speaker 2: kind of what set off this conflict. What does that
Speaker 2: mean again, Ben.
Speaker 1: This would mean that the territory at hand becomes part
Speaker 1: of the United States property of it. So, for instance,
Speaker 1: if the US today were to annex Baja California, or
Speaker 1: if Baja California were to annex California right, then what
Speaker 1: that would mean is this territory would become the property
Speaker 1: of the governing state. Annexation is typically not a move
Speaker 1: that everyone agrees with. Right, So if our super producer
Speaker 1: Casey Pegram and you and I are each three state
Speaker 1: actors who are neighbors, and two of us decide to
Speaker 1: split up the other one's property and annexit, it's pretty
Speaker 1: much a declaration.
Speaker 2: Of war exactly. And also part of the reason that
Speaker 2: there was some issue with making Texas part of the
Speaker 2: Union was that lawmakers did not want another slave state.
Speaker 2: And then there were these, you know, occasional raids, border
Speaker 2: raids by the Mexican government. But like we said, when
Speaker 2: Polk was elected, he threw all that aside and re
Speaker 2: annexation procedures began, and this set off the war, and ultimately,
Speaker 2: long story short, we won and we got a whole
Speaker 2: bunch of land as a result. And that all happened
Speaker 2: under the watch of James K. Polk during his very
Speaker 2: short presidency, which was.
Speaker 1: A purposeful presidency. You see. He was a one term
Speaker 1: president by design, that was part of his campaign platform,
Speaker 1: and unlike many, many, many, many, many other state leaders
Speaker 1: or politicians in general, he kept his word and after
Speaker 1: four years in the White House he returned to Tennessee.
Speaker 1: We do want to make a note here that the
Speaker 1: Mexican American War, and indeed all wars, are tragic things.
Speaker 1: This was not necessarily a position where there were clear
Speaker 1: cuts good or bad guys in the United States, and many,
Speaker 1: many organizations commanded by the United States did horrific things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean in the American military vastly outnumbered
Speaker 2: the Mexican forces. It was sort of a you know,
Speaker 2: shooting fish in a barrel kind of not an equal
Speaker 2: playing field.
Speaker 1: Now, So what happened after Polk left the presidency.
Speaker 2: He died, That's right.
Speaker 1: He did pass away, as people are unfortunately wont to do.
Speaker 1: He died on June fifteenth, eighteen forty nine, so not
Speaker 1: long after he served his term as president, and he
Speaker 1: passed away in Nashville, Tennessee.
Speaker 2: He did. And it's actually super interesting because he passed
Speaker 2: away after contracting cholera, and at the time there had
Speaker 2: been a massive cholera outbreak in Nashville such that there
Speaker 2: was a city ordinance that required any cholera victim be
Speaker 2: buried in the local municipal cemetery.
Speaker 1: Okay, right, so don't even have their bodies around for
Speaker 1: say a family ceremony or something.
Speaker 2: And so Polk's first burial place was very specifically tied
Speaker 2: to these conditions that it was just they had to
Speaker 2: do it. They put him there with everyone else who
Speaker 2: had suffered from this disease.
Speaker 1: And his after his post presidency of one hundred and
Speaker 1: three days, the shortest of any president. He did not
Speaker 1: die in office. I believe it was. It was about
Speaker 1: a year after, isn't that right, nol where they his
Speaker 1: body was dug up and moved after the first burial.
Speaker 2: That's right. It was dug up and moved to Polk Place,
Speaker 2: which sounds like a square on Monopoly.
Speaker 1: Or a place where they would sell poke bowls. Okay,
Speaker 1: here's a pitch. Here's a pitch. Just let me know
Speaker 1: what you think a James K. Polk themed poke bowl restaurant.
Speaker 2: See, I I have issue with poke versus polk. And
Speaker 2: I know you've made your line in the sand that
Speaker 2: it is poke, and I have said that to people
Speaker 2: who have looked at me askance. So, folks, what do
Speaker 2: you think? We're talking about raw fish in a bowl
Speaker 2: with rice and deliciousness? Is it poke or poke? Right?
Speaker 1: In?
Speaker 2: What do y'all think?
Speaker 1: Noel, If your problem with this persists, then don't worry.
Speaker 1: I've still got us covered. I've got a backup plan.
Speaker 1: It's a poke bowl place that's Pokemon themed.
Speaker 2: That's easy. Love. You could serve it in a poke.
Speaker 1: Bowl, right and you can collect the bulls love it
Speaker 1: all right? But Polk Place, it turns out is different.
Speaker 1: That is the that is the property where James K.
Speaker 1: Polk was intending to establish his legacy, who wanted to
Speaker 1: be buried there. He wanted kids to grow up there.
Speaker 1: He wanted it to remain the seat of the Polka state.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is the true kind of ancestral home
Speaker 2: of the Polk family. After Polk died, his wife Sarah,
Speaker 2: continued to live at Polk Place for forty two years
Speaker 2: until she died. But here's where the plot thickens and
Speaker 2: things start to get really interesting. Polk actually drew up
Speaker 2: his will a mirror five months before he passed away,
Speaker 2: and in it he used some very specific language. He was,
Speaker 2: after all, a lawyer, that said that his and his
Speaker 2: wife's remains should be buried at Polk Place, and that
Speaker 2: after he and his wife died, the property should be
Speaker 2: held in trust by the state, and that there should
Speaker 2: always be a blood relative living there.
Speaker 1: And there were a number of heirs, and they waited,
Speaker 1: they bided their time.
Speaker 2: But not direct heirs, not direct air. I think because
Speaker 2: of a childhood malady. He had the kidney stones really bad.
Speaker 2: He had an operation that rendered him sterile.
Speaker 1: Right, he did not have any direct issue, but there
Speaker 1: were a number of airs who, as I were saying,
Speaker 1: bided their time for decades waiting for Sarah Polk to expire,
Speaker 1: and then they filed lawsuits arguing that this will was
Speaker 1: a you know, a burlap sack full of bologney for
Speaker 1: legal purposes. The court ruled in their favor, and the
Speaker 1: court said that the will violated the common law rule
Speaker 1: against perpetuities, things that limit an owner's ability to leave
Speaker 1: property to unborn future generations.
Speaker 2: I guess Polk might have been a cracker jack one
Speaker 2: term president, but not that great of a lawyer.
Speaker 1: And who knows, you know, if he were. That's the
Speaker 1: thing about wills, You're not around to defend it in person, right,
Speaker 1: you know. So he very well may have been able
Speaker 1: to defend his position, but unfortunately with everyone who really
Speaker 1: had a stake in that perspective, gone, yeah, you're right,
Speaker 1: he had to just depend on the language as he
Speaker 1: had written it. So Polk Place was sold and torn down, right,
Speaker 1: and today there's a boutique hotel on the property.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Apparently, initially they were trying to turn it into
Speaker 2: the governor's mansion there in Nashville, but that did not pass.
Speaker 2: Muster and then they it was scooped up by a developer.
Speaker 2: I think it was an apartment for a while, and
Speaker 2: then it was it's the Boutique hotel today. And that
Speaker 2: initial developer, his name was Craig McClanahan. He apparently donated
Speaker 2: part of the property to be turned into a Carnegie Library.
Speaker 2: And according to Tennessee Magazine, an article written by Bill Carey,
Speaker 2: who talks a good bit about this debacle moving Polk's remains,
Speaker 2: he says all of this was done just to appease
Speaker 2: Nashville residents who might have been irritated that this fat
Speaker 2: cat developer swooped in and you know, crushed their their history.
Speaker 1: Which unfortunately is a tale as old as American time.
Speaker 1: If we're ticking on the capitalist clock, developers come in
Speaker 1: and change things, and it's tough to decide what should
Speaker 1: be kept historic and what becomes ephemeral and what has
Speaker 1: a strip mall or a mixed use development in the future.
Speaker 2: We're in an interesting spot where we sit here now,
Speaker 2: Ben We're in a place called Ponce City Market. That
Speaker 2: is a historic building. It used to be a city
Speaker 2: hall before that in the what forties, I want to
Speaker 2: say it was in Sears and Roebucks Shipping and Receiving
Speaker 2: center by the train right by the train line what
Speaker 2: they call the belt line now and to this day,
Speaker 2: it's basically kind of a bougie mall. And we have
Speaker 2: our studios here, which we love. It's a neat spot,
Speaker 2: but it has that interesting give and take between history
Speaker 2: preserving history and progress and bougie malls.
Speaker 1: And here's a great example, listeners, you may find this interesting.
Speaker 1: Even before there were buildings here, this road is named
Speaker 1: Ponce de Leon. This building is named Ponce City Market
Speaker 1: because it's on a road called Ponce de Leon, which
Speaker 1: is relatively famous here in the US. It's named that
Speaker 1: because people used to drive outside of the city proper
Speaker 1: when it was a dirt road to find the curative
Speaker 1: springs that were said to be panaceas for what all
Speaker 1: ails you. And they named this street Ponce de Leon
Speaker 1: as just a blatant marketing thing to have it associated
Speaker 1: with a fountain of youth, famously searched for by Ponce
Speaker 1: de Leon himself.
Speaker 2: Totally. And now when you drink from the water fountains
Speaker 2: at Ponce City Market, you are granted eternal life.
Speaker 1: True story, right right, Well, you're on the eternal life plan,
Speaker 1: which I believe is starts at ten dollars a.
Speaker 2: Month and an eternal life coach.
Speaker 1: That's a good one too. Seriously, though, the water does
Speaker 1: come from those same springs. That's why there's that big
Speaker 1: sister a reservoir, yeah, exactly, or reservoir. So back to Polk.
Speaker 1: On September nineteenth, eighteen ninety three, James K. Polk's body
Speaker 1: was moved again. This time it was moved to the
Speaker 1: Capitol where our story began with the statues of Jackson
Speaker 1: and Johnson, and he was buried alongside of his wife.
Speaker 2: And we talked a little bit earlier about how there's
Speaker 2: a little bit of a kerfuffle about this potential choice
Speaker 2: to move them.
Speaker 1: To It's a huge coach.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I'm probably downplaying a little bit. And
Speaker 2: a lot of that has to do with the idea
Speaker 2: that the folks in Columbia are just pushing for this
Speaker 2: because it would be a tourist destination. Because we talked
Speaker 2: earlier about how at the Tennessee State Capitol, Polk's grave
Speaker 2: is largely dwarfed by these, you know, really ostentatious sculptures
Speaker 2: of potentially more well known presidents Andrew Jackson and Andrew
Speaker 2: Johnson not necessarily more important, not necessarily more important at all.
Speaker 2: And again, the whole connection is interesting. How Jackson was
Speaker 2: old Hickory and and Polk was little Hickory. I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: it's not little Hickory. It was young Hickory, Youngckory, young Hickory.
Speaker 2: And he's dwarfed in in other ways than that. Jack
Speaker 2: is buried also in Tennessee at his estate called the Hermitage,
Speaker 2: which is a hugely popular tourist destination. And you know,
Speaker 2: why wouldn't the folks in Columbia want to get a
Speaker 2: little piece of that sweet, sweet tourist action.
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. According to Bill Carry, a researcher and writer
Speaker 1: who focuses on this region, the reinterment of President and
Speaker 1: Missus Polk is one of the most disrespectful deeds ever
Speaker 1: committed by the state of Tennessee.
Speaker 2: The second one, the second reinterment, right, I'm asking you,
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, First one Colera, you know, Colera Graveyard,
Speaker 2: second one family homestead. Then when they toured, that's the
Speaker 2: gross one, and then the reet to the capitol.
Speaker 1: And so we're seeing, Yeah, that's a great distinction because
Speaker 1: we are seeing collectively this this grab for money. It
Speaker 1: seems as if you know, as as Noel said earlier
Speaker 1: that to the opponents of the Columbia move from the
Speaker 1: Capitol to Columbia, this seems as though it is little
Speaker 1: more than a blatant grab for authenticity and tourism dollars. Right,
Speaker 1: Or we're not particularly honoring the wishes of this former
Speaker 1: president because the former president wanted to be interred in
Speaker 1: a place that has been torn down. Right, we're not
Speaker 1: necessarily honoring the wishes of the man himself the woman
Speaker 1: herself because they wanted to be interred at Pole Place,
Speaker 1: which was torn down for development purposes. This move, this
Speaker 1: idea of moving from the Capitol to Colombia, has no
Speaker 1: small amount of critics, including Bill Carey, but also Carol
Speaker 1: Van West, who is the state historian there of Nashville.
Speaker 1: She said, when Polk left the White House, he came
Speaker 1: home to Nashville, his wife stayed there for decades afterwards.
Speaker 1: There's no reason to move them, essentially.
Speaker 2: Except there's an argument on the other side too, right,
Speaker 2: because you've got this guy Tom Price, who's the curator
Speaker 2: of this place we're talking about now, the James K.
Speaker 2: Polk Home and Museum in Columbia, Tennessee, which was the
Speaker 2: home that his father built and that he later purchased.
Speaker 2: And you know, mister Price argues that it's not about
Speaker 2: tourism dollars, that it's about doing the best job possible
Speaker 2: given conditions to honor the language, and that will because
Speaker 2: he wanted to be buried at home. This is the
Speaker 2: closest thing you got. So it's like the spirit of
Speaker 2: the law if we cannot adhere to the letter Rightactlyah,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: What do you think I am on the fence, because
Speaker 1: he does acknowledge that it's difficult to get students to
Speaker 1: tour the home because Andrew Jackson's hermitage is so close.
Speaker 2: By, exactly. So they again, in life dwarfed also in death.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because the Tennessee lawmaker, State Senator Joey Hensley,
Speaker 2: who sponsored this bill that we're talking about that would
Speaker 2: disinter these remains and move them to this Polk House
Speaker 2: in Columbia, is quoted as saying this, I honestly served
Speaker 2: up here in the Tennessee State Capitol for fourteen years
Speaker 2: and had never seen Polk's grave. He told this to
Speaker 2: the New York Times, it's not handicap accessible. It's not
Speaker 2: really talked about much when they do do the Capital tour,
Speaker 2: and not many people visit it. It's just not a
Speaker 2: very good place to honor his legacy. So all kidding aside,
Speaker 2: I can see both sides, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point, because if they're not
Speaker 1: including it when they're doing the tour, if it's not
Speaker 1: easy to get to. Usually for anyone who's been on
Speaker 1: an historical tour before, what happens is you become inundated
Speaker 1: with information and so you're not Most people are not
Speaker 1: very likely to go above and beyond what the tour
Speaker 1: guide tells them to look at. And this brought us
Speaker 1: to a very interesting question, which is what does it
Speaker 1: take to disinter the corpse of a president if we
Speaker 1: just decided, hey, we're not doing anything with the next
Speaker 1: few years, let's pick up a new hobby. It turns
Speaker 1: out it's not too easy. You have to have the
Speaker 1: approval of the governor, the state House of Representatives, a
Speaker 1: local judge from the area, and in the case of Tennessee,
Speaker 1: the volunteer state. You have to have the approval of
Speaker 1: the Tennessee Historical Commission. You have to have a lot
Speaker 1: of a lot of different moving pieces work together. In Unison.
Speaker 1: About a week after the Senate bill passed, the Tennessee
Speaker 1: Historical Commission had come out against the plan to exhume
Speaker 1: James K. Polk and said that moving the graves would
Speaker 1: create a false sense of history at the Home and
Speaker 1: Museum in Columbia.
Speaker 2: Even given all of that red tape you have to
Speaker 2: get through to make this happen. And I'm not sure
Speaker 2: if this has always been the case in exactly the
Speaker 2: way that you laid out, but there are several historical
Speaker 2: precedents for exhuming presidential remains.
Speaker 1: And three times is not even close.
Speaker 2: Not even close. Man. In eighteen fifty eight, James Monroe,
Speaker 2: who was our fifth president, was exhumed and relocated from
Speaker 2: New York to his home state in Virginia. And then
Speaker 2: we've got this one that is just an absolute doozy.
Speaker 2: How many times, Ben, do you think Abraham Lincoln's body
Speaker 2: was moved?
Speaker 1: I know, do you want me to pretend to yes,
Speaker 1: I don't know. You can just say it, okay, seventeen
Speaker 1: times so far, so far. That's the thing with Abraham Lincoln.
Speaker 1: I feel like we have to add so far every
Speaker 1: time we mentioned.
Speaker 2: That statistics let the man rest.
Speaker 1: And that is indeed, that is the presidential record for
Speaker 1: the amount of posthumous moves per president. And in the
Speaker 1: case of Lincoln, these all occurred within the balance of Springfield, Illinois.
Speaker 2: What is that even about? Yeah, and I found this.
Speaker 2: It's on a discussion board Lincoln Assassination Forum, from a
Speaker 2: man named Roger Nordon. I can't speak to mister Norton's credentials,
Speaker 2: but he does have an example or a little account
Speaker 2: of every single time Lincoln's remains were moved, and one
Speaker 2: of them reads as such. November seventh, eighteen seventy six,
Speaker 2: in an attempt to kidnap Lincoln's body and hold it
Speaker 2: for ransom, Ghoules partially dismantle the sarcophagus and slide Lincoln's
Speaker 2: coffin halfway out. The conspiracy is foiled, however, and the
Speaker 2: kidnappers escape, leaving Lincoln's body behind.
Speaker 1: Lincoln also in a way that reminds me of our
Speaker 1: earlier episodes involving Winston Churchill. Lincoln also felt that he
Speaker 1: experienced pre cognitive dreams, but he never as far as
Speaker 1: we know. In the historical record. He never said, guys,
Speaker 1: they're gonna move my body seventeen times. But that's a
Speaker 1: weird prediction for people to make at this point. Only
Speaker 1: time will tell if James and Sarah Polk are going
Speaker 1: to be disinterred and reinterred a fourth time. And we
Speaker 1: want to hear your opinion on this. Is it a
Speaker 1: matter of historical accuracy? Is it a matter of disrespect?
Speaker 1: Is it a matter of doing our best? Is the
Speaker 1: living to adhere to the wishes of those who have
Speaker 1: passed totally?
Speaker 2: And in this Polk House and museum now a lot
Speaker 2: of the furniture from the raised ancestral Polk home is
Speaker 2: on display, you know, in sort of like a place
Speaker 2: out of time, kind of a pastiche So I'm sure
Speaker 2: it's a fascinating place to go. Do you need to
Speaker 2: dig up the guy's bones right and move them? I mean,
Speaker 2: this all depends on your view I guess of historical completionism.
Speaker 2: I guess I don't know, right, Like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: can't they just put up a plaque? It just seems
Speaker 2: like an awful big to do.
Speaker 1: Right, And then it also goes into well we could
Speaker 1: argue that it goes into the spiritual beliefs of the
Speaker 1: people when they were alive, you know, because there are
Speaker 1: some people who find it tremendously offensive to be moved around,
Speaker 1: and then there are some people who would say there
Speaker 1: were some people whould say, like Lenin style, just just
Speaker 1: preserve me and keep me on display.
Speaker 2: Right, And as it turns out, we have an update
Speaker 2: to this story. So the resolution that called for the
Speaker 2: movement of President Polk and his wife's remains was passed
Speaker 2: by the state Senate in Tennessee in March of twenty seventeen,
Speaker 2: but it was put on hold until later this year,
Speaker 2: so the state House will not actually vote on it
Speaker 2: until sometime this year, when we do not know, as
Speaker 2: the gears of law tend to grind pretty slow. But
Speaker 2: we'll keep an eye on this one.
Speaker 1: So will there be an update in the future, Will
Speaker 1: there still be momentum for this legislation or will it
Speaker 1: fall to the wayside. Unfortunately, as so much legislation often does,
Speaker 1: there's only one way to tell. Well, there are several
Speaker 1: ways to tell. They all depend on time, and we
Speaker 1: hope that your favorite way to tell will be tuning
Speaker 1: into another episode of ridiculous history In the meantime, I'd
Speaker 1: like to add this Pulk quotation toward the end of
Speaker 1: our episode here because I think it's an interesting contrast.
Speaker 1: One of his more famous quotations was the following, I cannot,
Speaker 1: whilst President of the United States, descend to enter into
Speaker 1: a newspaper controversy.
Speaker 2: Okay, bold words from President James K. Polk.
Speaker 1: Well, he did say while president and not currently president.
Speaker 2: That's fair.
Speaker 1: But now it seems that controversy has sprang up in
Speaker 1: his way.
Speaker 2: He was really trying to just be super chill under
Speaker 2: the radar, especially when he, you know, invaded Mexico.
Speaker 1: He said some other stuff I like too. He said,
Speaker 1: thank God, under our constitution there was no connection between
Speaker 1: church and state.
Speaker 2: Oh that's cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had no idea that would turn controversial again,
Speaker 1: did you, President Polk.
Speaker 2: And it's funny because he has kind of a pale,
Speaker 2: kind of milk toast kind of look to him.
Speaker 1: Something almost puritanical period exactly.
Speaker 2: So you know, I could see him wanting to be
Speaker 2: uncontroversial and some of the stuff that we're talking about,
Speaker 2: especially like the whole you know, Mexican American War and
Speaker 2: manifest destiny and all that. You know, we like California,
Speaker 2: but not the most popular political stance these days. Right,
Speaker 2: let's just go take you know, from beyond our Borders.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and Noel, what do you think about this
Speaker 1: quotation the world has nothing to fear from military ambition
Speaker 1: in our government?
Speaker 2: How about that one? Either. Let us know what your
Speaker 2: favorite James K. Polk quote is and hey, any historical
Speaker 2: figure send us quotes. We'll read them on the air.
Speaker 2: We'll have a new section in the show called quote Corner.
Speaker 2: I'm just spitballing here. You can put corner behind anything
Speaker 2: and it can be a segment. But write to us.
Speaker 2: We are ridiculous at HowStuffWorks dot com. You can also
Speaker 2: find us on Facebook, Twitter, or we are Ridiculous History
Speaker 2: and check us out on iTunes and leave us a
Speaker 2: review Apple Podcast rather excuse me. We appreciate it and
Speaker 2: that kind of helps discoverability of the show. Go up
Speaker 2: or anywhere else you listen to podcast. Just write us
Speaker 2: a note if you dig the show. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: And perhaps not most importantly, but let's put it in
Speaker 1: the top five. There a James K. Polk themed poke
Speaker 1: bowl place or a Pokemon themed poke bowl place.
Speaker 2: Let us know. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the
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Speaker 2: favorite shows.