Speaker 1: Hi, Hello there, and welcome. This is Let's talk about
Speaker 1: mits baby, and I am your host live. I was
Speaker 1: gonna come up with something Quippi there, but this bit
Speaker 1: isn't scripted for once because it's necessary reasons to be explained.
Speaker 1: So anyway, I'm me, I'm liv and I'm the host
Speaker 1: of this show, and I'm definitely not losing my mind
Speaker 1: on this here sixth anniversary part to episode. Just like
Speaker 1: on Tuesday's episode, I am back with answering more of
Speaker 1: your incredible questions, reading more of your beautiful comments, trying
Speaker 1: not to cry when they are particularly meaningful, and just
Speaker 1: generally going to play you some of your favorite and
Speaker 1: my favorite moments from past conversation episodes, and reading episodes
Speaker 1: because why in Tartarus not? This is me trying to
Speaker 1: replace Christian words in my vocabulary with Greek mythological and
Speaker 1: sometimes they just don't work, you know, you know. Let
Speaker 1: me tell you a quick saga before we dive right
Speaker 1: into this episode, because I have had a week. If
Speaker 1: you listen to Tuesday's episode, you learned that after six
Speaker 1: years recording this podcast, three of which have been with
Speaker 1: it as my full time job, I am ostensibly a
Speaker 1: professional podcaster, and yet last week I managed to record
Speaker 1: an hour's worth of partially scripted, partially improvised podcast without
Speaker 1: having used the correct microphone. Now, in my defense, this
Speaker 1: was a really bizarre thing that it wasn't even set
Speaker 1: up with the right microphone, because in any case, I
Speaker 1: did that and then I fixed it. You know, I
Speaker 1: only used part of the bad recordings for you guys
Speaker 1: on Tuesday, and then I re recorded most of it,
Speaker 1: and then well over the weekend, my computer that I
Speaker 1: record and edit all of my episodes on just shut
Speaker 1: off in the middle of me using it, and then
Speaker 1: wouldn't turn back on. After a day of playing with
Speaker 1: it and trying to figure it out. It seems like
Speaker 1: it just only sometimes is willing to be on and functioning.
Speaker 1: So right now I'm recording on a computer that I
Speaker 1: am fully expecting could shut down at any moment. I
Speaker 1: refused to touch it, and we're just going to hope
Speaker 1: for the best, because I just feel like I feel
Speaker 1: like six years is giving us something to work off of,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know what that is, and I
Speaker 1: hope that it cools down because also side note, the
Speaker 1: day before this happened, my PlayStation just decided to die.
Speaker 1: So we're doing great over here. Can't play the thousand screen,
Speaker 1: can't do anything in any case, I am here with
Speaker 1: this episode and it's gonna be fun and I'm hopefully
Speaker 1: not going to have to record it multiple times due
Speaker 1: to computers. And you know what, I feel like I
Speaker 1: had kind of over these past few years, kind of
Speaker 1: straight away from the more personal aspects with my scripts
Speaker 1: and everything, and so clearly I'm just coming right back
Speaker 1: to it with this one. So thanks for listening. Let's
Speaker 1: dive right into this part two of the six year
Speaker 1: anniversary episode because I'm so touched by all the comments
Speaker 1: and questions that you guys asked me, and I'm really
Speaker 1: excited to share some fun clips of conversation episodes and
Speaker 1: reading episodes that you know, I'm particularly proud of. I'm
Speaker 1: proud of all of them. Let's be perfectly honest, and
Speaker 1: I love every single one of my guests, but I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna play you some random things amidst answering your
Speaker 1: incredible questions and reading your incredible comments. Thank you, I
Speaker 1: love you all. Medicine and Magic Underworld, Gods, Plato and
Speaker 1: Herodotus being weird guys an anniversary special. Alright, our first
Speaker 1: question today comes from NIX and they say, Hi, Live
Speaker 1: Love your podcast. My question is, was there a distinguishable
Speaker 1: difference between regular love, which was put on you by
Speaker 1: the god Arrows's arrows usually and a love spell like
Speaker 1: the love for Jason put on madea by Aphroditi. It
Speaker 1: seems to me that either was completely out of control
Speaker 1: of the poor mortal. Anyway, I find it interesting, So
Speaker 1: I was wondering if you knew anything about it. So
Speaker 1: this is a really fun question, and the answer is
Speaker 1: one of those things that I talk about a lot,
Speaker 1: which is just that like it's both, it's neither, it's everything,
Speaker 1: it's mythology. And that is simply because so for one,
Speaker 1: just the context is that. So, for instance, the love
Speaker 1: spell that you're referencing specifically from the story of Jason
Speaker 1: and Medea that is found in the Argonautica by Apollonius
Speaker 1: of Rhodes, and Apollonius is from the Hellenistic period, so
Speaker 1: he's quite late in the grand scheme of Greek mythology,
Speaker 1: let's say, five hundred or so years after Homer, maybe
Speaker 1: four hundred after he seid Ish. These are all generalizations
Speaker 1: because of the oral tradition and all that, but he's
Speaker 1: quite late, and so what I think is happening here
Speaker 1: is that it's really just a storytelling device because also,
Speaker 1: unlike most of the earlier mythology that we have outside
Speaker 1: of the plays, of course, Apollonius is writing an epic,
Speaker 1: and we know, you know, he is a specific person
Speaker 1: that we know wrote this down. He was writing it
Speaker 1: to tell his version of the story. It's a much
Speaker 1: more deliberate act, and therefore we know that he was
Speaker 1: working off of intentional narrative devices, narrative decisions, in a
Speaker 1: way that can't be said for Hesiod, for Homer, for
Speaker 1: the fragmentary mythology that we otherwise have, because those were
Speaker 1: based on oral traditions, and so you know, they changed,
Speaker 1: they varied, we have, there were different versions, there were
Speaker 1: different people telling the stories in different regions, and all
Speaker 1: of these different things that just lead to them being
Speaker 1: like two really distinctly different you know sources. And I
Speaker 1: think that that the idea of like the God's controlling
Speaker 1: love and how they do it just is then shown
Speaker 1: really differently between them because of all of these these
Speaker 1: specific things that make them, you know, so different from
Speaker 1: each other. Now, all of that said, I also think
Speaker 1: it's just a matter of it being mythology, and sometimes
Speaker 1: it fits stories to have it be you know, a
Speaker 1: god's arrow or just like a god's intervention, and sometimes
Speaker 1: you want it to be a spell. And you know,
Speaker 1: there's just so many different things that contribute it to it.
Speaker 1: But also the overall idea that like, you know, across
Speaker 1: the Greek world, everyone would have believed really different things
Speaker 1: about the gods, what they could and could not do,
Speaker 1: what they did and did not do. You know why
Speaker 1: all these different things, Like everything was just so different
Speaker 1: and spread out, and like nothing was uniform and nothing
Speaker 1: was decided. So it's just kind of a matter of
Speaker 1: like such as mythology. It's the same answer is why
Speaker 1: we we can't track a lot of things chronologically in
Speaker 1: the myths or with the heroes or all those different things.
Speaker 1: It's just the nature of the reasons why these stories
Speaker 1: exist in the first place, and then also how and
Speaker 1: why they were passed down to us. I love talking
Speaker 1: about that stuff because that's why I love mythology. This
Speaker 1: reminder that like for all we hear these stories as
Speaker 1: like narrative stories, you know, like we imagine today. They
Speaker 1: weren't anything like what we have today, and because of that,
Speaker 1: we can't always understand the reasons behind, you know, the
Speaker 1: actions and behaviors of certain gods and people, and like,
Speaker 1: for me, that's the fun of it. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean that was a really great question. I'm glad I
Speaker 1: got to answer it because it's just a thrill for
Speaker 1: me to ramble on about that kind of stuff. Next
Speaker 1: up is Danny, who says, Hey Live First, I just
Speaker 1: wanted to say I'm a huge fan of you and
Speaker 1: your show. I've always identified myself as a feminist, but
Speaker 1: listening to your show over the last few years has
Speaker 1: helped me expand my own understanding of this and definitely
Speaker 1: grow as a person. You're awesome. I did my BA
Speaker 1: in Ancient history in Australia and remember learning about a
Speaker 1: set of characteristics that made up a Greek hero i e.
Speaker 1: He has an unusual birth or conception, has a divine parent,
Speaker 1: goes on a quest, et cetera. I was wondering what
Speaker 1: your thoughts on all those characteristics and whether in the
Speaker 1: ancient Greek storytelling they would have actively incorporated those elements
Speaker 1: into their myths. Another great question, really, really fascinating ways
Speaker 1: to start off of this episode. So now personally, and
Speaker 1: this is like entirely my own preference, I hate that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. I know it's ironic because I literally
Speaker 1: have an English degree and it's like that is how
Speaker 1: you get an English degree, is like breaking down everything
Speaker 1: like that. But I don't know, I don't really like
Speaker 1: like to think about them in such a structured and
Speaker 1: uniform way, and I don't really think this is, you know,
Speaker 1: an answer the rest of your question. I don't really
Speaker 1: think the ancient Greeks did either when they were developing
Speaker 1: the stories. Like maybe you know, in the example of
Speaker 1: Upolonius later, maybe he was because he's like a later
Speaker 1: author who's like making a really intentional piece of art
Speaker 1: in a way that the earlier stories that we have aren't.
Speaker 1: I don't really think that they thought about it that much.
Speaker 1: That said, to like the word hero it's obviously found
Speaker 1: in Greek mythology, but like, I don't know, I think
Speaker 1: that we even just the way we describe them now
Speaker 1: is so much more uniformly determined, like these are the heroes,
Speaker 1: And I don't think that it was quite so cut
Speaker 1: and dry in the ancient Greek world. They more saw
Speaker 1: them as the people in the characters and the archetypes,
Speaker 1: rather than needing to put them in this category of
Speaker 1: quote unquote hero you know so, and I mean, like,
Speaker 1: I know, when you're doing a BA specifically, like it's
Speaker 1: really really base level, surface level stuff, like that's all
Speaker 1: I have to And the difference in what I've learned
Speaker 1: through this podcast versus through my bas like fucking bananas,
Speaker 1: So you know, I think that that's like learning it
Speaker 1: like that is just like a good way to like
Speaker 1: get a grounding in things. But when you're really deep
Speaker 1: in the ancient sources and really trying to understand the
Speaker 1: ancient sources, I think it sort of falls away and
Speaker 1: just becomes sort of just like a side piece. It's
Speaker 1: just sort of you know, you can do these things,
Speaker 1: you can break down the characters in this way, but
Speaker 1: personally I'm just disinterested in that. I like them for
Speaker 1: the character and the why behind it, the reasons why
Speaker 1: they were developed in the ways that they were, rather
Speaker 1: than you know, distinctly categorizing them into these these I
Speaker 1: don't know, categories. All right. That was really great, Thank you.
Speaker 1: Oh and she had another question. I also read a
Speaker 1: theory in one of my textbooks that the idea of
Speaker 1: the gods being related was actually to demonstrate their equality
Speaker 1: of power slash status, not necessarily that they were related
Speaker 1: related or do you think this is just wishful thinking
Speaker 1: trying to make something gross not so. I think that's
Speaker 1: another great question too. And I think that I think
Speaker 1: that like, Okay, I don't want this to sound like
Speaker 1: I am, like, you know, not giving you all the answers,
Speaker 1: but like, I think it's another it's kind of like
Speaker 1: the question at the top there, it's just irrelevant, you know, like, yes,
Speaker 1: probably they weren't developing these these ideas and concepts with
Speaker 1: the distinct notion that like they are sister and brother
Speaker 1: and they are fucking like I think it is more
Speaker 1: just these ideas of power, like you said, and status
Speaker 1: and like a hierarchy. The it's more about them being
Speaker 1: like generationally important than it is about them being you know,
Speaker 1: biologically related. I think that it just kind of didn't matter.
Speaker 1: The biology of it was sort of just an extra piece.
Speaker 1: It didn't really come into the stories. And I don't know,
Speaker 1: I think it's an interesting thing to think about, but
Speaker 1: I also think it's one of those things that's like
Speaker 1: so unanswerable, you know, like I don't know, maybe they
Speaker 1: were like really into that, who knows, right, But I
Speaker 1: do think ultimately that yes is probably more about power
Speaker 1: and a hierarchy of divinities than it was about like
Speaker 1: an actual biological relationship. All right. Next up, we have
Speaker 1: a message from pin Up, who sent me a really
Speaker 1: long and beautiful message. I just want to say that
Speaker 1: I did read it, but I'm just going to read
Speaker 1: your question here. Was there ever a time you felt
Speaker 1: like people didn't appreciate the fabulousness of the ancient Greek
Speaker 1: world and wanted to give up? On the podcast? No No,
Speaker 1: and there were like so I think I've said this
Speaker 1: before on the show, but like in the summer of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, I was like a walking disaster. I mean,
Speaker 1: like so many were you know, it was the beginning
Speaker 1: of the pandemic. We were all trying to figure out
Speaker 1: this new life. And I personally was like keeping up
Speaker 1: a podcast. I'd started doing it twice a week and
Speaker 1: that had like really helped my download, so I couldn't
Speaker 1: bring myself to stop. I got the deal to write
Speaker 1: the book, but they gave me a month to write it,
Speaker 1: and while all of that was happening. My day job
Speaker 1: was managing a clothing store, and they called us back
Speaker 1: to reopen or called me back to single handedly reopen
Speaker 1: a clothing store in a mall in the pandemic, And
Speaker 1: it corresponded with I had to write a book in
Speaker 1: a month and keep up with two episodes of the
Speaker 1: podcast a week. And that was before I signed on
Speaker 1: with when I used to be with Acast, and they
Speaker 1: were the ones who first ever like paid me enough
Speaker 1: that I could quit my job, So it was before that,
Speaker 1: and like, honestly, if a cast hadn't come around at
Speaker 1: that time and offered me money that was enough for
Speaker 1: me to quit my job, I probably would have just
Speaker 1: fully burnt out and had to end the podcast because
Speaker 1: it was just becoming too much. But it wasn't about
Speaker 1: the listeners. It was about my own ability to do it.
Speaker 1: Every once in a while, you know, I get a
Speaker 1: little not a little jaded, but just like it's difficult,
Speaker 1: and podcasts are so kind of weird because like I
Speaker 1: both do and do not hear from listeners that they
Speaker 1: like it and that like what I'm doing is actually
Speaker 1: reaching people, like objectively, I know it, but sometimes it
Speaker 1: just kind of like falls away and I just feel
Speaker 1: like I'm I'm doing this thing. I don't know, it's
Speaker 1: really it's really interesting. But I've honestly like when I
Speaker 1: do Q and a's and stuff, it really helps me
Speaker 1: because I got these incredible messages from you people, and
Speaker 1: like you all remind me the reasons why I'm doing
Speaker 1: this right, and I get this kind of like really
Speaker 1: distinct reminder of why it matters and why I love
Speaker 1: it and who the people are who are listening and
Speaker 1: loving it alongside me, and that makes an enormous difference
Speaker 1: to me. It just like it just helps a fuck ton,
Speaker 1: So thank you all, you know, and and like just
Speaker 1: a general note, like if you listen to an episode
Speaker 1: and you really love it, you can tell me, and
Speaker 1: I will always be really happy to hear that. Like
Speaker 1: I probably won't answer all the time because correspondence stresses
Speaker 1: me out. I call it ADHD and anxiety, but I
Speaker 1: will read it and it will make me happy, like
Speaker 1: really happy, you know, especially if you comment on, you know,
Speaker 1: one of the little videos and stuff that I post
Speaker 1: on Instagram for each new episode. If you tell me
Speaker 1: that you listened and you loved it, like honestly, that
Speaker 1: makes my day all the time. Any kind of reaching
Speaker 1: out of listeners makes my fucking day. So feel free.
Speaker 1: But that's all to say. While I have had points
Speaker 1: where I contemplated giving up the podcast, it wasn't because
Speaker 1: people didn't love it, you know, which has also made
Speaker 1: it harder, and thankfully it's why I never stopped. But
Speaker 1: you know, there's been moments, but it was more about
Speaker 1: the actual work and money involved rather than you know,
Speaker 1: the actual the people who listen to me, thank you. Well,
Speaker 1: I think it's a fine time to play a clip,
Speaker 1: don't you now. In my last script, I had written
Speaker 1: down what clips I had, but now I can't touch
Speaker 1: my computer and I fear it. So it's going to
Speaker 1: be a surprise our next selection. How to flirt at
Speaker 1: sporting events and let not the contest of the noble
Speaker 1: steeds is gape you. The roomy circus of the people
Speaker 1: has many advantages. There is no need there of fingers
Speaker 1: with which to talk over your secrets, nor must a
Speaker 1: hint be taken by you through nods. Be seated next
Speaker 1: to your mistress, there being no one to prevent it,
Speaker 1: Press your side to her side as close as ever
Speaker 1: you can, and conveniently enough, because the partition compels you
Speaker 1: to sit close, even if she be unwilling, and because
Speaker 1: by the custom of the place, the fair one must
Speaker 1: be touched by you. Here, let occasion be sought by
Speaker 1: you for some friendly chat, and let the usual suspects
Speaker 1: lead to the first words. Take care and inquire with
Speaker 1: an air of anxiety, whose horses those are coming? And
Speaker 1: without delay, whoever it is to whom she wishes well
Speaker 1: to him, do you also wish well? But when the
Speaker 1: thronged procession shall walk with the holy statues of Ivory,
Speaker 1: a plod your mistress venus with zealous hand. And as
Speaker 1: often happens, if perchance a little dust should fall on
Speaker 1: the bosom of the fair, it must be brushed off
Speaker 1: with your fingers. And if there should be no dust,
Speaker 1: still brush off that nun. Let any excuse be a
Speaker 1: prelude to your attentions. If her mantle hanging too low,
Speaker 1: shall be trailing on the earth, gather it up and
Speaker 1: carefully raise it from the dirty ground at once, as
Speaker 1: the reward of your attention. The fair permitting it her
Speaker 1: ankles will chance to be seen by your eyes. Look too, behind,
Speaker 1: who shall be sitting behind you that he may not
Speaker 1: press her tender back with his knee against it. Trifles
Speaker 1: attract trifling minds. It has proven to the advantage of
Speaker 1: many a one to make a cushion with his ready hand.
Speaker 1: It has been of use, too to waft a breeze
Speaker 1: with the graceful fan, and to place the hollow footstool
Speaker 1: beneath her delicate feet. Both the circus and the sand
Speaker 1: spread for its sad duties in the bustling forum will
Speaker 1: afford these overtures to a dawning passion on that sand.
Speaker 1: Often has the son of Venus fought. And he who
Speaker 1: has come to be a spectator of wounds himself receives
Speaker 1: a wound while he is talking and is touching her hand,
Speaker 1: and is asking for the racing list, and having deposited
Speaker 1: the steak, is inquiring which has conquered wounded. He sighs
Speaker 1: and feels the flying dart, and himself becomes a portion
Speaker 1: of the spectacle so viewed. Well, that was from Avid's
Speaker 1: ours Amatoria the Art of Love. I think it's usually
Speaker 1: translated as and well that was God. I remember covering
Speaker 1: that last year around Valentine Today, because it's just one
Speaker 1: of Ovid's wildest work. Is he joking? Is it satirical?
Speaker 1: Is he serious? Is he far more misogynistic than we thought?
Speaker 1: Is he far less? What is happening? Check out those
Speaker 1: episodes I did if you're curious, because what a wild
Speaker 1: and weird work of art that piece is? All right?
Speaker 1: Next up is a question from Diamante. I hope I
Speaker 1: pronounced that right. Thank you, she says to start off,
Speaker 1: I want to say thank you Live and the team
Speaker 1: of Myths Baby. It's me and MICHAELA and we're making
Speaker 1: good team. The podcast has been a constant for quite
Speaker 1: a long time. I mean my bachelor's degree, a pandemic,
Speaker 1: a master's degree, and now a master's thesis. So yes,
Speaker 1: massive thanks. I think with all these years of independent
Speaker 1: research under your belt, my question would be what are
Speaker 1: some of the lessons slash improvements you discovered after having
Speaker 1: worked on MIT's davy for six years. If there were
Speaker 1: any or any steps or sources that you once incorporated
Speaker 1: into your work but later with experience, decided weren't so helpful. Basically,
Speaker 1: how do you think the last few years research for
Speaker 1: Myths Baby have helped you become a better researcher or writer.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, everything is better now everything. I am
Speaker 1: so much more, so much better at researching. I am
Speaker 1: so much better at ancient sources and understanding them and
Speaker 1: picking them correctly and like sharing them with you all.
Speaker 1: I no longer use secondary sources for the mythology unless
Speaker 1: I absolutely have to, Whereas at the beginning of the show,
Speaker 1: I've just I went with what I had, right, and
Speaker 1: what I had was the basics of the Internet, the
Speaker 1: knowledge I had from my BA. But it was like
Speaker 1: five years old at the time, and I, you know,
Speaker 1: had never been using it. And they don't teach you
Speaker 1: how to research ancient sources. They just teach you the
Speaker 1: basics because it's just you know, surface level BA And yeah,
Speaker 1: I really like I look back and it's really entertaining.
Speaker 1: So so a really good example is I used to
Speaker 1: use this book called Greek Myths. It's by Robin Waterfield.
Speaker 1: And I used it because I found it on sale
Speaker 1: at a bookstore. And I, at the time, you know,
Speaker 1: was was broken writing this show and it was cheap,
Speaker 1: and I was like, great, a book of Greek myss
Speaker 1: and so I used it for a while. And now
Speaker 1: I look back, and so there are moments in this
Speaker 1: book that are fucking horrifying. He yeah, I don't recommend
Speaker 1: this book basically, you know, I'm sorry to the author.
Speaker 1: He's an incredibly well respected classicist, so I am not
Speaker 1: talking about him directly. But all of that said, there
Speaker 1: are moments in this book that are patriarchally horrifying. Like
Speaker 1: the story of Medusa has all of these changes that
Speaker 1: make her monstrous and horrifying and scary and are completely
Speaker 1: completely fabricated beyond like there's nothing in the sources. You know,
Speaker 1: it's got the whole notion of her like terrorizing the lands,
Speaker 1: like really deserving this death or or that. Like I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure it says that she it uses some things
Speaker 1: from Avid's version, and it really explicitly I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: says that she like chose to sleep with Poseidon and
Speaker 1: Athena's temple. Oh and it says that she like bragged
Speaker 1: that she was more beautiful than Athena, which, like, tell
Speaker 1: me the source that says that, and I will take
Speaker 1: all of this back, but like pretty sure it doesn't exist.
Speaker 1: And then also the Pandora section was equally like the
Speaker 1: misogyny found in the Medusa and Pandora's sections of this
Speaker 1: book broke my brain. And now I guess that's a
Speaker 1: long way of saying, uh, yeah, I am so much
Speaker 1: better at researching and sharing those sources too, Like if
Speaker 1: you ever want to be doing this stuff on your
Speaker 1: own or learning more. I'm really really detailed in my
Speaker 1: sources that are linked in the episode's descriptions. And there's
Speaker 1: just so much online with the ancient sources, and you
Speaker 1: can really learn a lot and it's just fucking fun.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, gods, am I better now? The
Speaker 1: lessons I learned, I guess if I was to boil
Speaker 1: them down just like contact and ancient sources, you know,
Speaker 1: but it's difficult to fully explain. But holy shit, am
Speaker 1: I better now? And that's what matters to me?
Speaker 2: All right?
Speaker 1: And this next question is from Jennifer Lopez, and I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna go right ahead and assume it's the Jennifer Lopez.
Speaker 1: Thanks Jelo. She said I'm gendering here, and I apologize
Speaker 1: it's part of the joke, not meant to the person
Speaker 1: who wrote this, Hilf. I've always wondered this. If Helen
Speaker 1: is a daughter of Zeus, why isn't she considered a goddess?
Speaker 1: Or half goddess. And I was really glad to get
Speaker 1: this question because I think it's something that is It's
Speaker 1: one of those things that I think is our modern
Speaker 1: understanding is based both in you know, general modern understandings
Speaker 1: of things and logic, but also classical reception and how
Speaker 1: movies and TV and books about myths kind of stray
Speaker 1: us away from how the ancients really we were playing
Speaker 1: with these stories and these characters. And so that is
Speaker 1: all to say that, and it is just a matter
Speaker 1: of like I mean, so there are a shit ton
Speaker 1: of characters in mythology that are the children of gods
Speaker 1: and are have no godly distinctions at all. Helen is
Speaker 1: a good example. I mean that said, there is you know,
Speaker 1: there is stories of Helen where after she has died
Speaker 1: she does get to like kind of live as a goddess.
Speaker 1: She lives on the island of the Blest in one source,
Speaker 1: and she marries Achilles. It's very odd and interesting, and
Speaker 1: so you know, there is some kind of deification after
Speaker 1: her death in a way, but it's not really explicit.
Speaker 1: It's not like Heracles or anything, which his is like
Speaker 1: so obviously like he becomes a god and he is
Speaker 1: really the only child of a god and a mortal
Speaker 1: that gets that that like really becomes it. We even
Speaker 1: have like a good example of how, you know, there
Speaker 1: was no kind of structure or logic in terms of
Speaker 1: divine parentage. A really good example is Harmonia, right, my
Speaker 1: favorite character in myth. She's married to Cadmus. She's the
Speaker 1: daughter of Aphrodite and Ares, and she has absolutely no
Speaker 1: divinity mentioned in a single story about her, nothing, and
Speaker 1: she lives amongst the mortal. She marries Cadmus. She like,
Speaker 1: there's nothing that in the surviving sources that defines her
Speaker 1: as being a goddess at all, other than just the
Speaker 1: word she's a goddess, but there's nothing that comes across.
Speaker 1: And yet she's the daughter of two fucking Olympians, not
Speaker 1: just like you know, Zeus and some mortal. And so
Speaker 1: it's just like the ultimate thing is that the stories
Speaker 1: were developed to tell the stories, not to have a
Speaker 1: distinct understanding of biology and who had what kind of
Speaker 1: divine parentage? Is what that meant. Like, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of characters in the Trojan War who have a divine
Speaker 1: parent but don't act like they you know, are a
Speaker 1: half god or whatever. Aneas is a great example. He's
Speaker 1: the son of Aphrodite, but like he's just kind of
Speaker 1: there in the Iliad. And you know, Achilles is not
Speaker 1: a great example because Thetis like has a kind of
Speaker 1: hands on relationship with him, but at the same time,
Speaker 1: like he's not a god, he dies like anyone else. Right,
Speaker 1: Sarpedon in the Iliad is a son of Zeus. Oh God,
Speaker 1: there are so many I'm never gonna be able to
Speaker 1: name them all, but they are countless, and they don't
Speaker 1: really ever have this kind of like divine notions, so
Speaker 1: just a sort of a reference like yeah, he's the
Speaker 1: son of Zeus, but it's really common to have that,
Speaker 1: And then you get to the half of it all.
Speaker 1: So this is a great time for me to mention that. Like,
Speaker 1: so the word demi god doesn't really exist in Greek mythology,
Speaker 1: Like I think there's like maybe one or two references
Speaker 1: to it as a notion, but it is not like
Speaker 1: a broad concept. There is not like an official status
Speaker 1: of demi god or like, and it's not a term
Speaker 1: used often at all to describe any half mortal, half god.
Speaker 1: You know, like no one's out there writing ancient sources
Speaker 1: that have Heracles listed as a demi god. It's just
Speaker 1: not a thing. Wasn't the point, right, It wasn't the point.
Speaker 1: The point Let's use Helen as the example, because that's
Speaker 1: your that was your question. But like, the point is
Speaker 1: that Helen is important because she is the daughter of
Speaker 1: Zeus and Leda, and she has kind of it's like
Speaker 1: divine beauty. But the point isn't to have her be
Speaker 1: a half goddess. That it doesn't serve a purpose in
Speaker 1: the story and therefore it doesn't matter. It's just really
Speaker 1: about the intention of the stories and what they were
Speaker 1: trying to do, what they explained, what they were linked to,
Speaker 1: you know, in the in the case of the more
Speaker 1: famous heroes, Heracles, you know, PERCs, I guess the two
Speaker 1: sons of Zeus, that mattered that they were the sons
Speaker 1: of Zeus because they were going to go on to
Speaker 1: do great things. But even between those two, they don't
Speaker 1: have any kind of like aligned you know, being half
Speaker 1: from Zeus gets you x. There's none of that, because
Speaker 1: it wasn't the point. They just they were the sons
Speaker 1: of Zeus, and Helen was the daughter of Zeus to
Speaker 1: convey specialness and not really anything else. All right, now,
Speaker 1: I want to play a clip from one of everyone's
Speaker 1: favorite returning guests, doctor Ellie Mack and Roberts. Ellie joined
Speaker 1: me last year to talk about Euripides is Alcestes aka
Speaker 1: this like incredibly ridiculously beautifully entertaining tragic comedy that Eurypitys wrote.
Speaker 1: It's his oldest surviving play. It is weird and wacky
Speaker 1: and I love it so much and Ellie loved it
Speaker 1: so much, and so she joined me to talk all
Speaker 1: about it, and I want to share a little bit
Speaker 1: of that. Now. Admatist does not get any redeeming moment,
Speaker 1: Like he is just continually ridiculous and he just like
Speaker 1: he doesn't concede anything. He's just like, you should have
Speaker 1: died for me, and now I hate you because you didn't.
Speaker 1: And his father has such well said and like reasonable
Speaker 1: arguments to be made, like I think one line is
Speaker 1: like you didn't die for me, why should I die
Speaker 1: for you? Or you wouldn't and so why should I?
Speaker 1: Or there's another that's like you like your life, why
Speaker 1: wouldn't I like mine? Like it's just so explicitly like, so, no,
Speaker 1: people shouldn't have to die for one another. That that
Speaker 1: doesn't make me a bad father because I didn't want
Speaker 1: to like think about this rationally. Here, I'm not a
Speaker 1: bad person. And and literally like he just has all
Speaker 1: these deeply rationalble rational and reasonable points and then atis
Speaker 1: is like, no, no, you should have died for me.
Speaker 1: There is no other options. I will not listen to
Speaker 1: anything you say or take any constructive criticisms on how
Speaker 1: I have handled the situation.
Speaker 3: That's it, Like yeah, and then you can really tell
Speaker 3: that Fairies just gets completely like exasperated when he ye
Speaker 3: and snapped, and he kind of has that like are
Speaker 3: you just going to like keep marrying people so you
Speaker 3: never have to die?
Speaker 1: Like how is this going to work for you?
Speaker 3: And that kind of is the moment where I think,
Speaker 3: you know, because then after that is after that or
Speaker 3: before that? I think it's after that that. Admetus then
Speaker 3: kind of goes on his like well, I don't have
Speaker 3: any parents, Alcestus is my parents now, Alcestus is my
Speaker 3: mother and my fon and goes on this like deeply
Speaker 3: weird cutting himself off from like everything, and yeah, just
Speaker 3: has a tantrum.
Speaker 1: Yeah. At one point he's like, you're not even my
Speaker 1: parents to begin with, like I bet you. You guys
Speaker 1: store me from somebody and snuck me into the palace
Speaker 1: and pretended like I was my mother's son. Like he's
Speaker 1: just it's so over the top. That's I think how
Speaker 1: he starts the conversation, so it really starts it off
Speaker 1: with a bang of yeah yeah really just really nice
Speaker 1: and reasonable guy.
Speaker 3: I know I keep saying this, but like he is
Speaker 3: an overprivileged, posh white man who went to Oxbridge even
Speaker 3: though he didn't deserve it, you know, like he is
Speaker 3: that type of type or went to an ivy even
Speaker 3: though because his dad made a massive financial contribution to Harvard.
Speaker 3: You know, he is that person. And at every point
Speaker 3: his tantrum, at every point of that conversation with his dad,
Speaker 3: you know, he's increasing throwing his toys out. The prim
Speaker 3: tantrum just reinforces that, and you can see almost that
Speaker 3: like dawning realization where his dad is like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: I probably did this.
Speaker 1: Yeah all right. Next up, we have one from Connor
Speaker 1: and he says, I'm still a new listener, just start
Speaker 1: of the artisty, but wanted to comment on how much
Speaker 1: I love your enthusiasm hearing that my name is Live
Speaker 1: and I fucking love. This shit is always a joy
Speaker 1: and that energy makes me love continuing to listen even more.
Speaker 1: What's your favorite place in Greece with respect to ancient
Speaker 1: Greek mythology and favorite Greek tattoo you have or want?
Speaker 1: All Right, I think I have to say that my
Speaker 1: favorite place in Greece for this reason for the mythology
Speaker 1: is Samothrace. You know, I've rambled on and on and
Speaker 1: on about it, but it's just this really beautiful and
Speaker 1: unlike just an unbelievable place. It's so kind of underrated
Speaker 1: and nobody really goes there, but it has this incredible
Speaker 1: temple complex and it's mythologically confusing. We don't really know anything,
Speaker 1: so I guess it's a bad example for mythological but
Speaker 1: to me it's just like unbelievable and kind of groundbreaking.
Speaker 1: But as a simpler answer and one that is considerably
Speaker 1: easier for people to actually see on their own, I
Speaker 1: will hype up Delos. Fuck. So, Delos is the island.
Speaker 1: It's just this little island off of Mikinos, and of
Speaker 1: course it's you know, where Apollo was born, and it's
Speaker 1: mythologically sacred to Apollo. But now it's just this spurling
Speaker 1: archaeological site. There is nothing on the island except for archaeology.
Speaker 1: You have to go for just the site, and so
Speaker 1: you have to take a boat just for this site.
Speaker 1: It's unreal. It's unreal. And while Mikonos is ridiculous and
Speaker 1: so much more expensive than the rest of Greece, I
Speaker 1: can't even properly convey it to you. Dalos is worth it.
Speaker 1: But I will say, if you don't want to go
Speaker 1: to Mikinos, but you want to go to Delos, you
Speaker 1: can do day trips from some of the other islands,
Speaker 1: particularly Naxos and Paros, both of which are great islands
Speaker 1: to visit that are way cheaper than Mikonos, and I
Speaker 1: would argue even more fun. Unless your purpose is to
Speaker 1: just go and be Instagram famous and party, and then
Speaker 1: Mikonos is your jam. But if not, go to Naxos
Speaker 1: or Paros and take a day trip up to Delos
Speaker 1: because who oh my gosh. And tattoo. I have a
Speaker 1: lot of mythological tattoos at this point I will see.
Speaker 1: My favorite is my Badusa tattoo, because the artist who
Speaker 1: did her is just amazing and she's fucking beautiful. But
Speaker 1: I also the artist I have like a mythological whole
Speaker 1: kind of arm piece. It's like in progress. And the
Speaker 1: artist who did that too, is also incredible, and she's
Speaker 1: done amazing work. And I don't know, Yeah, they're all
Speaker 1: so fun. Tattoos are great. They're dangerously good, all right.
Speaker 1: And to bring it down a little bit, so I
Speaker 1: basically fucked up my copying and pasting of these questions
Speaker 1: on Tuesday's episode, and I read a question by Tony
Speaker 1: and they had also included a really nice message that
Speaker 1: I meant to read, but I cut it and put
Speaker 1: it here instead and remove their name. I had to
Speaker 1: go searching for it. It was a whole thing, and I
Speaker 1: just want to read it because it means a lot
Speaker 1: to me. And again, this is a moment where I'm
Speaker 1: just going to try not to cry. Mainly though, I
Speaker 1: want to say thanks. I found your podcast during the
Speaker 1: pandemic where I was going through a really rough bout
Speaker 1: of depression, both related and unrelated to COVID. I didn't
Speaker 1: enjoy much of anything and could barely leave bed. I
Speaker 1: found your podcast one day as I made a drive
Speaker 1: across my state. It was the first time doing a
Speaker 1: long distance drive since I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety.
Speaker 1: I had a panic attack driving and your podcast was
Speaker 1: what grounded me. Later, when I was back at home
Speaker 1: and didn't want to brush my teeth or a shower
Speaker 1: or make food, I would put on your podcast as
Speaker 1: a way to get just a bit of dopamine so
Speaker 1: I could get these things done. I felt like I
Speaker 1: was growing with you and the podcast that as you
Speaker 1: got better, despite the warning I did start at the beginning,
Speaker 1: I relearned how to take care of myself. It's truly
Speaker 1: been a joy binging your show for the last two years,
Speaker 1: and thank you for doing what you do and being
Speaker 1: the ally that you are. Thank you a lot, Like
Speaker 1: I said on Tuesday, A goo back and forth with
Speaker 1: reading these because they feel really just like their self congratulatory,
Speaker 1: but I recognize that they're not and they are at
Speaker 1: the same time. And anyway, thank you guys for sharing
Speaker 1: stuff like that with me, Like it makes it really
Speaker 1: worth it, you know, Like it really emphasizes, like what
Speaker 1: I was talking about earlier, with the few times when
Speaker 1: I have even contemplated stopping this, like these are the
Speaker 1: things that really helped me and like just couldn't possibly
Speaker 1: make me happier. You should always feel free to share
Speaker 1: that stuff with me, because nothing like it's like life
Speaker 1: changing on my part. All right, and we're gonna pick
Speaker 1: it right back up again with a question that I am.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that Francesca asked me about this, and
Speaker 1: I just want to say that, like this is particularly
Speaker 1: relevant when we get to the question. But I when
Speaker 1: I managed the clothing store it's called Below the Belt,
Speaker 1: by the way, since I don't work there anymore, and
Speaker 1: I can say it, I worked with a lovely, lovely
Speaker 1: young woman named Francesca as well, and she was also
Speaker 1: a big one direction fan. Because the question from this
Speaker 1: Francesca is are you a one direction fan? In your
Speaker 1: early episodes, you often say truly, madly, deeply, which is
Speaker 1: a one direction song. I don't know if it's just
Speaker 1: a coincidence or if you do it on purpose. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I love your podcast. I am so glad you asked
Speaker 1: that because this is I think I have to say
Speaker 1: that it is my official favorite anecdote that has ever
Speaker 1: come out of this podcast. Okay, I tell it to everyone,
Speaker 1: mostly millennials, And here's why. I In those early episodes
Speaker 1: of the podcast, Yes, I was intentionally intentionally using the
Speaker 1: phrase truly madly deeply, and yes, that phrase was intentionally
Speaker 1: referencing a song. However, however, there is a song by
Speaker 1: the nineties rock band Savage Garden that is called truly
Speaker 1: madly Deeply, and as a woman who is thirty five
Speaker 1: as of this episode, I was one hundred percent referencing
Speaker 1: the ninety song truly madly deeply because I want to
Speaker 1: stand with you on a mountain, and I want to
Speaker 1: bathe with you in the sea, and I want to
Speaker 1: lay like this forever until the sky falls down on me. Anyway,
Speaker 1: you should all go google Savage Gardens truly madly deeply.
Speaker 1: This makes me so happy, truly, So I didn't. I
Speaker 1: had no idea that there was a one direction song
Speaker 1: called that, because no, I was too old for one Direction,
Speaker 1: so I unless it played on the radio, I never
Speaker 1: knew it. I can't name a single song. And so,
Speaker 1: but last year I ran a poll with my listeners
Speaker 1: and I was like getting merch ideas and stuff. Clearly
Speaker 1: nothing happened with that. But and somebody told me that
Speaker 1: their favorite phrase from the show was truly madly deeply
Speaker 1: because they're a one direction fan. And I was like,
Speaker 1: holy shit, and I googled it and I learned, and
Speaker 1: it's just my favorite thing in the entire world that
Speaker 1: I spent all of this time like subtly referencing a
Speaker 1: nineties song that one specific generation I think cares about
Speaker 1: and that is mine. And then did I know? I
Speaker 1: was connecting with all these some one Direction fans and
Speaker 1: that just made me so happy, like truly so happy.
Speaker 1: So thank you, I love all. I love that that
Speaker 1: became a thing, like truly, nothing else makes me happier.
Speaker 1: But all of that to say is unfortunately, no, I
Speaker 1: am not a One Direction fan. However, I fucking love
Speaker 1: Harry Styles, and hey, am I gonna let's see if
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell tens of thousands of people this? Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna do it. So last year, we all
Speaker 1: know you get your Spotify rapped, right, you all shared
Speaker 1: them with me when I'm your podcast, and it makes
Speaker 1: me so fucking happy. I love, love, love love Spotify
Speaker 1: rapped seasons. Well, last year I got my Spotify wrapped,
Speaker 1: and I don't listen to podcasts on there. I use
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, so mine was just music. And so last
Speaker 1: year I put on Harry Styles a lot as like
Speaker 1: background music and like why while I was writing, while
Speaker 1: I was working on the show, while I was reading books.
Speaker 1: It was just kind of on a lot. And it
Speaker 1: was on so much, and only beginning from I think
Speaker 1: it was June, it was on so much in my
Speaker 1: ears that I in my Spotify Wrapped was not in
Speaker 1: the top one percent of Harry Styles listeners around the world,
Speaker 1: not the top point one percent. No no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: no no no. I was in the top point zero
Speaker 1: one percent of Harry Styles listeners last year, and that
Speaker 1: is a lot. Let's play a clip of Lucian's True History,
Speaker 1: shall we? God's that reading was one of the most
Speaker 1: entertaining things I have ever done. It's the epic where
Speaker 1: there is a war on the moon against the moon
Speaker 1: people and the Sun people, and I think there's bugs involved,
Speaker 1: and then you know, there's a war inside of a whale,
Speaker 1: and then there's a travel to the underworld and a
Speaker 1: lot of herodotus shade a good times. Then we prepared
Speaker 1: for our passage and feasted with them at the usual hour,
Speaker 1: and the next morrow I went to Homer, entreating him
Speaker 1: to do so much as make an epigram of two
Speaker 1: verses for me, which he did, and I erected a
Speaker 1: pillar of berylstone near unto the haven, and engraved them
Speaker 1: upon it. The epigram was this Lucian the gods beloved
Speaker 1: did once attain to see all this, and then go
Speaker 1: home again. After that day's tarrying, we put to sea,
Speaker 1: brought onward on our way by the heroes, where Odysseus,
Speaker 1: closely coming to me Penelope might not see him, conveyed
Speaker 1: a letter into my hand to deliver to Calypso in
Speaker 1: the island of Ogaigia Rhadamanthus also said Nauplius, the ferryman,
Speaker 1: along with us, that if it were our fortune to
Speaker 1: put into those islands, no man should lay hands upon us,
Speaker 1: because we were bent upon with other employments. No sooner
Speaker 1: had we passed beyond the smell of that sweet odor,
Speaker 1: but we felt a horrible, filthy stink, like pitch and
Speaker 1: brimstone burning, carrying an intolerable scent, as if men were
Speaker 1: broiling upon burning coals. The air was dark and muddy,
Speaker 1: from which distill the pitchy kind of dew. We heard
Speaker 1: also the lash of the whips and the roaring of
Speaker 1: the tormented. Yet when we not were to visit all
Speaker 1: the islands, but that wherein we ran was of this form.
Speaker 1: It was wholly compassed about with steep, sharp and craggy rocks,
Speaker 1: without either wood or water. Yet we made a shift
Speaker 1: to scramble up among the cliffs, and so went forwards
Speaker 1: in a way quite overgrown with briers and thorns, through
Speaker 1: a most villainous, ghastly country, and coming at last to
Speaker 1: the prison and place of torment, we wondered to see
Speaker 1: the nature and quality of the soil, which brought forth
Speaker 1: no other flowers but swords and daggers. And round about
Speaker 1: it ran certain rivers, the first of dirt, the second
Speaker 1: of blood, and the innermost of burning fire, which were
Speaker 1: very broad and unpassable, floating like water and working like
Speaker 1: the waves of the sea, full of sundry fishes, some
Speaker 1: as big as fire brands, others of a less size,
Speaker 1: like coals of fire, and these they called licknic skies.
Speaker 1: There was but one narrow entrance to it, and Timon
Speaker 1: of Athens appointed to keep the door. Yet we got
Speaker 1: in by the help of Nautilius, and saw them that
Speaker 1: were tormented, both kings and private persons, very many of
Speaker 1: which there were some that I knew, for there I
Speaker 1: saw kunterest tied by private members and hanging up in
Speaker 1: the smoke. But the greatest torments of all are inflicted
Speaker 1: upon them that told any lies in their lifetime and
Speaker 1: wrote untruly, as Catessius, the Canadian Herodotus, and many other
Speaker 1: which I beholding. Was put in great hopes that I
Speaker 1: should never have anything to do there, for I do
Speaker 1: not know that I ever spoke any untruth in my life.
Speaker 1: We therefore returned speedily to our ship, where we could
Speaker 1: endure the site no longer, and taking our leaves of Nauptilius,
Speaker 1: sent him back again. All right, I have a question
Speaker 1: now from Ellie, who says hi live. First off, I
Speaker 1: want to say I love your content. I'm a very
Speaker 1: avid listener and I'm so happy to have a strong
Speaker 1: women giving me my myth fix. Any who, I was
Speaker 1: wondering if you ever plan on doing a live reading
Speaker 1: or a book signing slash meet and greet thing again
Speaker 1: in Victoria. Much love, Ellie. Also, who's your favorite nymph? Well,
Speaker 1: I think my favorite nymph is Calypso because of the
Speaker 1: odyssey of it all, even though she is a problematic
Speaker 1: as a fuck. But I'm glad you asked about that,
Speaker 1: because actually you prompted me to finally remember to reach
Speaker 1: out to the people at Indigo here in Victoria, and
Speaker 1: so I will be doing a book signing at the
Speaker 1: Indigo in the fine Mayfair Mall. That's sarcasm. Mayfair is ridiculous.
Speaker 1: I will be doing that on Saturday, August twenty fifth. Nope,
Speaker 1: twenty sixth. I will be doing that on Saturday, August
Speaker 1: twenty sixth at twelve pm. We'll do I think it's
Speaker 1: twelve to two. And yeah, you can come have your
Speaker 1: existing books signed, or you can buy new ones and
Speaker 1: have me sign them. And yeah, I will announce it
Speaker 1: more on social media and things. But because you asked there,
Speaker 1: we are so thank you. And next we have one
Speaker 1: from Laurel, who says, I can't believe it's been six years.
Speaker 1: I found you at the end of your first and
Speaker 1: have been hooked ever since. I've loved following your journey
Speaker 1: and immediately got your books when they came out. Your
Speaker 1: passion for all things Greek and your authenticity makes for
Speaker 1: such an enjoyable podcast. I particularly enjoyed the Atlantis and
Speaker 1: Sparta series you've done in the past couple of years
Speaker 1: as a history nerd. I love the conversation episodes with
Speaker 1: the academics. I can't wait to listen to your next series.
Speaker 1: Love you so much, Live and I truly hope to
Speaker 1: read your novel book, Cadmus and Harmonia someday. Well we'll
Speaker 1: see about that last one. Adhd is a bitch. But otherwise,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for that message. And I will
Speaker 1: say that I recognize your name from the last six years,
Speaker 1: so thank you for being around this long. All right,
Speaker 1: I've got one from Autumn but spelled with a Y.
Speaker 1: I love that. It's lovely. And they said, I've heard
Speaker 1: another theory about the story of Medusa, which Athena actually
Speaker 1: turned her into a monstrous form to protect her. Additionally,
Speaker 1: from what I understand, her image was often used to
Speaker 1: depict safe houses for domestic or sexual abuse. I was
Speaker 1: wondering if you had heard anything about it, or if
Speaker 1: the theory had any sort of validity. Maybe you've already
Speaker 1: covered this. I'm afraid I haven't made it too far
Speaker 1: into your episodes yet. This is a great question. I
Speaker 1: think I've talked about it in the past, but I'm
Speaker 1: really happy to do it again, because not everyone listens
Speaker 1: to that, and it's a question that comes up super often.
Speaker 1: So this is like I've seen it in a meme form, honestly,
Speaker 1: and it goes around fairly often, this idea that Athena
Speaker 1: protected her. And while I understand the intention behind the theory,
Speaker 1: because it does make it on the surface, I feel
Speaker 1: like it's nicer, but if you really break it down,
Speaker 1: I personally don't like the theory at all because it
Speaker 1: implies that protection has to harm and that's just sad,
Speaker 1: you know, like in order for her to be protected,
Speaker 1: she had to be completely isolated from the entire world
Speaker 1: and not really be able to be around anyone and
Speaker 1: all of these different So I personally don't like it
Speaker 1: for that reason. In terms of any kind of validity
Speaker 1: of the theory, Like it's really impossible to say because
Speaker 1: these are these are mythical creatures and people, and you know,
Speaker 1: we'll never really know the intention, not least because so
Speaker 1: often you know, they're just these fragmentary sources or you know,
Speaker 1: authors that probably weren't real people or all these different things,
Speaker 1: so we'll just never know. But I personally don't. I
Speaker 1: don't like that theory. It bums me out. I don't
Speaker 1: think it's nice once you actually dig a little deeper. Now,
Speaker 1: as for the safe houses for domestic abuse, unfortunately, that
Speaker 1: is a misconception that also goes around the internet a lot.
Speaker 1: If you google it, it will seem true. It isn't
Speaker 1: as far as I understand it from speaking with historians
Speaker 1: and archaeologists who have talked about how it is. You know,
Speaker 1: it goes around as a as a fact, but it
Speaker 1: isn't really a fact that said she was an apotropaic device.
Speaker 1: Her head was. She was a protective form. You know,
Speaker 1: her vision was used as a protective kind of talisman.
Speaker 1: Let's say. So that's true. It just wasn't directed at
Speaker 1: women or domestic abuse survivors or victims, because uh yeah
Speaker 1: it wasn't. It was just like a broad protective device.
Speaker 1: So that's not to say that like some people might
Speaker 1: you know, have used it that way, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: like an actual symbol for that. It was a broader
Speaker 1: symbol of protection. Yeah, so's it again. It's one of
Speaker 1: those things that sounds so lovely, but it is unfortunately
Speaker 1: not factual in terms of the ancient world itself. All right, Next,
Speaker 1: one I have one from reen or Rhine who says,
Speaker 1: what's the best experience you've had traveling and what's the worst?
Speaker 1: Thank you for all you do. Your podcast always makes
Speaker 1: my day better. Thank you so Obviously, I've done a
Speaker 1: lot of traveling to Grease lately. I recognize there is
Speaker 1: an intense amount of privilege that I have had in
Speaker 1: being able to do that. I want to thank you
Speaker 1: all for supporting the podcast and helping me get over
Speaker 1: there so many times. I do recognize it is not
Speaker 1: a normal ability most have. All of that said, I
Speaker 1: honestly like I have such a good time traveling over there,
Speaker 1: especially when I'm alone. I've never really felt unsafe. I
Speaker 1: don't really go out it late or like party or anything,
Speaker 1: so maybe that helps, but I've never I've never felt unsafe.
Speaker 1: I've always had an amazing time. Everyone is always so lovely.
Speaker 1: I think I can name one one person I've ever
Speaker 1: encountered in Greece who was mean. Honestly, like, I don't
Speaker 1: think I have any bad experiences. Best is just all
Speaker 1: of it is the thing, Like, I really just can't
Speaker 1: say enough how nice it is not only to travel
Speaker 1: through Grace, but also just to travel there alone as
Speaker 1: somebody who likes being alone. Yeah, I really don't think
Speaker 1: I have anything bad to say at all. All right, now,
Speaker 1: let's play a little clip from this episode that I
Speaker 1: did with Antonia Aluco. Antonia is studying intersectionality alongside witches.
Speaker 1: I'm going to forget the exact details, but that's basically it.
Speaker 1: It was fascinating, and we talked about Madea and Circe
Speaker 1: in Avid really specifically, and Antonio was just so much
Speaker 1: fun to talk to you. So I want to remind
Speaker 1: you all of that episode. Go back and take a listen.
Speaker 4: And so if we look at which is using insectional
Speaker 4: theory kind of like as the magic use being an
Speaker 4: extra layer onto their discrimination in the ancient world, then
Speaker 4: we get a very very specific picture of this kind
Speaker 4: of overly extreme, very chaotic, very monstrous figure whose you know, sexuality, age,
Speaker 4: gender and ethnicity all play a part, and how she's
Speaker 4: perceived in the ancient world.
Speaker 1: All right, I have one here from Thor and I'm
Speaker 1: going to be paraphrasing this question. I mean, I've paraphrased
Speaker 1: a bunch of them, but this one I'm going to
Speaker 1: do kind of in the moment. So Thor says Hello,
Speaker 1: liv I have been listening to your show for about
Speaker 1: three to four years, and I am in love with
Speaker 1: your podcast. As a person who loves Greek mythology, it
Speaker 1: is wonderful to see a person who is passionate about
Speaker 1: the subject as I am. I enjoy geeking out with
Speaker 1: you over your expertly sourced episodes and wonderful storytelling. Thank you.
Speaker 1: That makes me happy. Okay, I have a question regarding
Speaker 1: the offspring of certain deities. As I've broadened my knowledge
Speaker 1: of mythology, I have always found it interesting that some
Speaker 1: gods produce godly offspring, while other encounters with different characters
Speaker 1: may result in mortal children. And then they provide some
Speaker 1: examples here which I'm not going to read. There is
Speaker 1: most certainly not a definite answer to this question, but
Speaker 1: I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Is
Speaker 1: it due to the characters having different versions of who
Speaker 1: their parents are compared to other sources. Did the individuals
Speaker 1: who source these genealogies believe that there was an explicit
Speaker 1: reason for why this occurs, or is there godly or
Speaker 1: mortal status of no importance at all compared to the
Speaker 1: legacies that are that these characters left behind. So I
Speaker 1: realized while reading that that I've basically I answered that
Speaker 1: earlier when I answered the question about Helen, but I
Speaker 1: wanted to read it anyway because I think it opens
Speaker 1: up the question far beyond Helen in a way that
Speaker 1: a lot of people often are questioning for themselves. So,
Speaker 1: just to kind of reiterate, there is no hard and
Speaker 1: fast rules or definitions when it comes to having a
Speaker 1: divine parent. A lot of times when it comes to mortals,
Speaker 1: it's I mean, like I said, with Helen, it's really
Speaker 1: just a to signify a kind of specialness, a kind
Speaker 1: of individuality, something that sets them apart from the other mortals.
Speaker 1: And then sometimes you know and say in the case
Speaker 1: of Heracles, it also signifies strength and abilities and all
Speaker 1: of this. So it's really on like a case by
Speaker 1: case basis of what the character needed for the story,
Speaker 1: for the plot, what have you. Like, it just is
Speaker 1: totally dependent on the story, the source of the character,
Speaker 1: the purpose behind it, the intention. Like yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: sort of there's no hard and fast rules about Greek
Speaker 1: mythology and what happens in those stories, like at all,
Speaker 1: no rules, no canon, no defined anything. That's what makes
Speaker 1: it fun, it is also what makes it confusing. If
Speaker 1: you're trying to put modern rules storytelling, plot, narrative, if
Speaker 1: you're trying to put these things that we now consider
Speaker 1: to be sort of the norm, if you're trying to
Speaker 1: put them on Greek, I can get baffling and annoying.
Speaker 1: But if you really remind yourself that these were not
Speaker 1: developed as stories in the way that we think of
Speaker 1: stories now, they were not you know, nobody sat down
Speaker 1: and thought out the plot of the Iliad. People thought
Speaker 1: out the plot of the Iliot, don't get me wrong,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't one person sitting down and being like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell this story in the way that
Speaker 1: I want. What's more likely is that, you know, it
Speaker 1: started off as one little bit of a story, and
Speaker 1: then it expanded, and then other characters were added, and
Speaker 1: then other plots were at it, and then other you know,
Speaker 1: narrative devices were added that you know, we got the
Speaker 1: background on these characters a little bit, that we got
Speaker 1: more details about why they're doing what they're doing, or
Speaker 1: what's happening or all of these different things would have
Speaker 1: been developing over so much time that like, yeah, there
Speaker 1: just wasn't ever a purpose for us to be Like
Speaker 1: when you have a divine parent, this is what results.
Speaker 1: It just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's about signifying
Speaker 1: something else within them, and what that something else was
Speaker 1: was just completely dependent on the character of the purpose,
Speaker 1: the god, what have you. Yeah, I hope that makes sense.
Speaker 1: It's a very interesting thing to think about and explain.
Speaker 1: But also like because it is so sort of amorphous,
Speaker 1: it's also difficult to explain. All right, next one. Next,
Speaker 1: I've got one from Kelda and she says, Hey, live
Speaker 1: love your podcast. I was listening to your Adonnas episodes,
Speaker 1: which was excellent, by the way, thank you, And it
Speaker 1: struck me as very similar to Persephone's abduction and to
Speaker 1: Helen's abduction by theseus. Just wondered what you think about
Speaker 1: possible connections or if the reason Adonnas gets more agency
Speaker 1: than either of those women is because of his gender.
Speaker 1: Good old patriarchy, Am I right? That is a great question,
Speaker 1: and I agree it's very similar to Persephone's abduction and
Speaker 1: to Helen's abduction. And while I think it would probably
Speaker 1: be silly to say that the fact that he's a
Speaker 1: man doesn't come into play, I think probably it's more
Speaker 1: due to sourcing. Because of so, I'm gonna, of course
Speaker 1: forget all the Adonna's sourcing, even though I only covered
Speaker 1: it like a few weeks ago in my head. But
Speaker 1: Adonnas is very fragmentary and kind of missing things, and
Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff comes from later sources that
Speaker 1: are like sort of explaining things from an earlier time.
Speaker 1: And to me that kind of inherently it means that
Speaker 1: that the authors who are are kind of coming up
Speaker 1: with this stuff are more like I was talking about earlier,
Speaker 1: like a Polonius of Rhodes, you know, the Argonautica guy,
Speaker 1: somebody who is setting out to write a story. Whereas
Speaker 1: so using the example of Persephone her abduction, myth right
Speaker 1: is retold originally, and by originally I mean you know,
Speaker 1: it's oldest surviving source is the Homeric hymn to Demeter,
Speaker 1: and that is from the Archaic period, I believe. I
Speaker 1: know some of them are sort of debated, but what
Speaker 1: that really means is just that it is considerably older.
Speaker 1: It is more of a cultural a cultural story, but
Speaker 1: like a it's it's ideological right, it's explaining something, it's
Speaker 1: giving the background on God's like the story of Persephone's
Speaker 1: abduction serves a very different purpose than the story of Adonnas.
Speaker 1: And of course the story of Adonnas, you know, like
Speaker 1: we found out not only is it really ancient in
Speaker 1: terms of the Greek mythology, but it's coming from the East,
Speaker 1: and so there are going to be a lot of
Speaker 1: things in that story that are as old as the
Speaker 1: Homeric him to demeanor, but they don't survive. What survives
Speaker 1: for us has been given a bit more of a
Speaker 1: modern notion, you know, And so I think it's really
Speaker 1: a matter of what we have to look at now.
Speaker 1: The helln one is more difficult for me to say,
Speaker 1: I don't remember what the source is for that. I
Speaker 1: think actually I think it's something like what survives is
Speaker 1: is Pseudopolodorus probably, which is quite late, and the Helen
Speaker 1: one that was generally baffling because it is general like
Speaker 1: most THESEUS myths are are Athenian propaganda because he was
Speaker 1: he was developed quite late and then like slotted in
Speaker 1: to the older stories.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 1: So like the purpose behind having theseus abduct Helen is
Speaker 1: to not only provide a kind of explanation for Sparta
Speaker 1: versus Athens, you know, in their rivalry, but it also
Speaker 1: is to sort of retcon Theseus into Homeric characters and
Speaker 1: a Homeric timeline. Right the Athenians who are wanting Theseus
Speaker 1: to be their big hero guy, to show off how
Speaker 1: important and valid Athens is. They are slotting him into
Speaker 1: the story that shaped Hellenic culture, right, the Iliad. They
Speaker 1: want him, they want a piece of the Iliad, and
Speaker 1: Theseus can't be just put into the Iliad because it's existing,
Speaker 1: you know, it already existed by the time Theseus was
Speaker 1: being developed, and so what they had to do is
Speaker 1: slot him in around there. You know. It's why they
Speaker 1: made him cousins with Heracles, It's why they had him
Speaker 1: abduct Helen fight the Dioscori, like, all of these things
Speaker 1: are to sort of cement Theseus amongst the more famous
Speaker 1: and the more culturally relevant Greek characters. All of that said,
Speaker 1: it's still wild that they were like, We're gonna have
Speaker 1: him kidnap a child, Like, I don't have an explanation
Speaker 1: for that. It's so weird. But all to say, I
Speaker 1: do think it's more about sourcing and what survives and
Speaker 1: what the intentions were behind it. I think it's more
Speaker 1: about that than it is about the patriarchy, which I
Speaker 1: recognize it is quite unique for me to say, of course,
Speaker 1: there is going to be something inherent in the fact
Speaker 1: that he is a man and the way those values change.
Speaker 1: It's really similar to the story of Zeus and Ganymede.
Speaker 1: Right Zeus subducted Ganymede's Zeus's one really obvious male lover.
Speaker 1: He was the child, and it also does not It
Speaker 1: also gives us this idea that Ganymede wanted to be there,
Speaker 1: and I think that that was probably because they were
Speaker 1: just more concerned with the desires of men explicitly in
Speaker 1: that way, so they like kind of made it seem
Speaker 1: more likely that they wanted to be there, whereas women
Speaker 1: just kind of were property inherently already, so they didn't
Speaker 1: really have to It wasn't so much that they were
Speaker 1: being I think, uncaring towards the feelings of women, but
Speaker 1: since women were inherently owned by their husbands, they didn't
Speaker 1: matter whether they wanted to be there, whereas men were
Speaker 1: supposed to be the ones who, do, you know, the possessing,
Speaker 1: and so they kind of had to make it seem
Speaker 1: like they wanted to be there. If that makes sense.
Speaker 1: These are theories on my part entirely, and a lot
Speaker 1: of it is based on the fact that we don't
Speaker 1: have a lot of sourcing on these particular stories, or
Speaker 1: a lot of varied sourcing. Of course, we have a
Speaker 1: very detailed homeric him to demeanor, but we don't have
Speaker 1: a lot beyond that, and so it's just sort of
Speaker 1: a matter of, you know, working with what we have
Speaker 1: and trying to figure those things out. But again, those
Speaker 1: are all theories on my part. I don't want to
Speaker 1: say anything with you know, definitively all right. Next on,
Speaker 1: I've got one from Lily, who says, Hi, live and
Speaker 1: team love the show. My question is more of an
Speaker 1: advice one. I am studying archaeology and have to write
Speaker 1: an essay on an archaeological site we study this unit.
Speaker 1: But I can't decide out of these two options, Mycenie
Speaker 1: or Paphos, which is on Cyprus. I was leaning towards
Speaker 1: myceni but after your Adonnas episode, I'm torn. I would
Speaker 1: love to hear your input. Okay, I will say this
Speaker 1: is entirely based on my Adonnas and then the Eastern
Speaker 1: Aphrodite episodes, but go with Paphos. Fuck, Pathos seems so interesting.
Speaker 1: I am now obsessed with Pathos. I have to go
Speaker 1: to Pathos. I want to learn more about Pathos. I
Speaker 1: think you should choose Paphos. Thank you for asking. That
Speaker 1: was fun and very relevant. And you know, now that
Speaker 1: I've said that, I think it's time for another clip.
Speaker 1: So why don't we go ahead and listen to a
Speaker 1: great moment in the conversation I had last year with
Speaker 1: Caitlin Bolding, who talked about Plato's Timaeus, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: the first mention we have of Atlantis. But there was
Speaker 1: so much more to that dialogue of Plato that I
Speaker 1: didn't know. And also talking to Caitlin was just so
Speaker 1: much fun. And I feel like this is an underrated
Speaker 1: episode amongst my listeners, and so I want you all
Speaker 1: to revisit it. Here is a clip from that episode.
Speaker 1: You know, well, if Solon did really hear this, then
Speaker 1: these different things could be real. And I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but you're misunderstanding. Like the whole point is that, like, no,
Speaker 1: Solon didn't hear this because Plato has no connection to Solon.
Speaker 2: Oh that's amazing, Yes, you know who would love that
Speaker 2: Plato Plato.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, this is.
Speaker 2: This is Plato's whole game, right, Like, yes, he's setting
Speaker 2: this up. And then so we've got festival context to
Speaker 2: these dialogues, and that's the setting. And they're having this
Speaker 2: conversation at a dinner, right. So you're at this cultural
Speaker 2: event that takes place over multiple days. It's a big deal.
Speaker 2: Everyone comes into town. And there's the side events which
Speaker 2: are actually like probably more interesting, where you're having these
Speaker 2: conversations with Tamaeus, who you know, he's in town from
Speaker 2: southern Italy. He's reached the peak of all philosophy and
Speaker 2: critias who may or may not be like the tyrant. Okay,
Speaker 2: the fact that Plato also puts this into the mouth
Speaker 2: of the same guy who is both his like uncle
Speaker 2: and maybe one of the thirty tyrants is wild. I
Speaker 2: have many thoughts about this which I cannot substantiate in
Speaker 2: my TVD read this chapter of the Dissertations. But then
Speaker 2: within this backstory, it's at another festival that Crittius learns
Speaker 2: the story. And again this is a fiction.
Speaker 6: All right.
Speaker 1: I've got a question here from Chloe, and she says,
Speaker 1: do you think archaeologists will find more of the stuff
Speaker 1: we don't have or have we pretty much found all
Speaker 1: we expect to. Is there the possibility of some of
Speaker 1: this lost stuff being out there somewhere? Oh? What a
Speaker 1: fun question. And now again I will preface this with like,
Speaker 1: I am not an archaeologist nor a historian, so this
Speaker 1: is all guesswork on my part. But I would say
Speaker 1: that a safe guess is that we'll never know whether
Speaker 1: we're done knowing, Like, we'll never know if there's nothing
Speaker 1: more to find. Obviously there's a shit ton that's still lost. Right.
Speaker 1: The thing about texts, I will say texts are considerably
Speaker 1: more difficult or less likely to be found because of
Speaker 1: the way texts are and are not preserved. They just
Speaker 1: don't last, right. You know, Papyrus, where a lot of
Speaker 1: things were written down, it lasts, but only in specific circumstances.
Speaker 1: It's why a lot of the fragments of Sappho that
Speaker 1: we have we only have them because they were on
Speaker 1: papyrie that was then being reused in mummification and therefore
Speaker 1: it lasted. But a lot of the things that they
Speaker 1: wrote texts on just don't survive there. You know, it
Speaker 1: takes like these really sort of freak moments for them
Speaker 1: to survive. I don't think that that means there isn't
Speaker 1: anything to be found whatsoever. It's just that it is.
Speaker 1: I think it's just more difficult if my understanding is correct.
Speaker 1: In terms of everything else. I mean, they're finding stuff
Speaker 1: all of the time, right, all of the time, they're
Speaker 1: finding these artifacts that open up new avenues that explain things.
Speaker 1: They're finding you know, mosaics and you know statues, all
Speaker 1: of these things, and those things all really do contribute
Speaker 1: to countless things, but they do contribute to mythology because
Speaker 1: a lot of the time, Like, Okay, so if you
Speaker 1: find a mosaic, you could actually find an alternate myth
Speaker 1: in a mosaic, and we might not have a text
Speaker 1: source for it, but by it inherently being in a mosaic,
Speaker 1: we know that it was at least a story that
Speaker 1: somebody knew, somebody thought up, right, So even without texts,
Speaker 1: we're still learning more all of the time with like
Speaker 1: everything that's found. It's fucking amazing. I love that I'm
Speaker 1: friends with our chael hunters now because I feel like
Speaker 1: I get such better insight and just like just paying
Speaker 1: attention to that stuff. Like, really, they're finding stuff all
Speaker 1: of the time. It's pretty it's pretty fucking incredible and exciting,
Speaker 1: all right. Next, I have one from Eleanor who says,
Speaker 1: are there any stories of Persephone that include her time
Speaker 1: out of the underworld. It always struck me as odd
Speaker 1: that she's only there for one third of each year,
Speaker 1: yet most stories involving her have her in the underworld.
Speaker 1: For example, you know Orpheus and Theseus's friends Abduction love
Speaker 1: the podcast. Thank you. That's a great question, and I
Speaker 1: think it comes back to something I was talking about
Speaker 1: in Tuesday's episode, which is just that at least in
Speaker 1: terms of what survives and what we know, and often
Speaker 1: I think what was probably being written down what we
Speaker 1: have is what was necessary. Right Again, this is all
Speaker 1: coming back to everything I've been talking about this whole
Speaker 1: episode about intention, the why behind these stories, why they
Speaker 1: were being developed, and when it comes to Persephone, for
Speaker 1: the most part, the why is aligned with the underworld,
Speaker 1: because you know, Demeter's handling the harvest, and while Persephonie
Speaker 1: is the goddess of Spring, she's just more important in
Speaker 1: the underworld. She is more important as the dread goddess
Speaker 1: as as the queen of the underworld. If you go
Speaker 1: back to the stories of her that do exist in
Speaker 1: the underworld, she becomes pretty obviously like the more important one,
Speaker 1: which is amazing and so interesting, and so I think
Speaker 1: that it's just that she sort of had more weight
Speaker 1: down there, the stories of her down there mattered more.
Speaker 1: Now all of that said, the thing that Persephone is
Speaker 1: very famous for that is technically speaking probably not in
Speaker 1: the underworld is Eleusis. Right, the Ellucinian mysteries were the
Speaker 1: mystery cult out of Eleusis. It's just outside of Athens,
Speaker 1: and that is completely devoted to Persephone, Demeter and then
Speaker 1: often Tryptolemus, who is this kind of like the son
Speaker 1: of Demeter. He's associated with them. I don't know enough
Speaker 1: of the Elusinian mysteries. They're on my like to research list,
Speaker 1: and so like, I can't say anything with definitive nature,
Speaker 1: and I don't think there's a lot of stories that
Speaker 1: revolve around Persephone and Eleusis. But she was, you know,
Speaker 1: the goddess of Eleusis, and people were doing a lot
Speaker 1: of really really important ritual stuff when it comes to
Speaker 1: that location and the mysteries and her, and so she
Speaker 1: does have these connotations outside of the underworld. Spring time generally,
Speaker 1: you know, general growth of the earth, all of these things,
Speaker 1: but they don't align with stories because no one's necessarily
Speaker 1: a story about spring happening. It just happened, Flowers just grow,
Speaker 1: We don't need to talk about it kind of thing,
Speaker 1: you know. Whereas everyone wants stories of the underworld, people
Speaker 1: traveling down there, all the different katabasi is that plural
Speaker 1: for catabasis, I'm assuming you know all these different things.
Speaker 1: There's just more reason to have stories of her down there.
Speaker 1: So it's not about her, you know, not being up
Speaker 1: on the upper land or them not thinking about her
Speaker 1: on the upper world. Rather, I'm sure that they thought
Speaker 1: about her up there a lot, but there was no
Speaker 1: purpose to a story there. It all comes back to purpose,
Speaker 1: and like what purpose these stories served in a way
Speaker 1: that we will just never fully understand because it's just
Speaker 1: not how our society works. But it is the reason
Speaker 1: behind mythology broadly, right, I fucking love it all right.
Speaker 1: I have one from Addie here and she says, I
Speaker 1: absolutely love your podcast and have been listening for years.
Speaker 1: It was really thanks to your podcast that I decided
Speaker 1: to do a bachelor's degree in classical studies I'm graduating
Speaker 1: this fall. For my question, I was wondering, other than witches,
Speaker 1: do you know of any Greek mythological creatures that are
Speaker 1: perceived differently to the Romans. Thank you so much and
Speaker 1: much love for one. Congratulations on graduating. It's so wild
Speaker 1: to me that people have done degrees at least even
Speaker 1: in part by this show. That's so fucking cool. Yay,
Speaker 1: But okay, your question. That's really interesting. The witches thing
Speaker 1: is fun because I don't know that it's necessarily something
Speaker 1: that's like talked about all that much. I just think
Speaker 1: it's fucking fascinating. But I do think it just is.
Speaker 1: It's a cultural thing, right, It's like it's just the
Speaker 1: sort of gap in between Greek sourcing and Roman sourcing.
Speaker 1: But I won't go into the witches. You guys can
Speaker 1: listen to past episodes where I've rambled on and on them,
Speaker 1: but bat Or talked to experts in it as well.
Speaker 1: But I mean, I think there's probably a lot just
Speaker 1: because again of the same kind of cultural disconnect. A
Speaker 1: lot of the stories that we have from Rome are
Speaker 1: just coming from considerably later and they're well, what a surprise,
Speaker 1: they had a really different purpose. They were serving a
Speaker 1: really different purpose, and so things change. The underworld is
Speaker 1: very different place. I know because it actually gets kind
Speaker 1: of described in a way in the Eneid in that
Speaker 1: like it never really gets fully described in Greek mythology.
Speaker 1: It's just kind of like disparate notions and ideas and
Speaker 1: people and rivers and such.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I can't really think of any other good examples, So
Speaker 1: it's a fun question. I'm glad I both read it,
Speaker 1: and then I kind of wish I had something better
Speaker 1: to tell you all, but thank you for listening. Next,
Speaker 1: I have one from Marisa, and she says I thought
Speaker 1: about this while falling asleep the other day and can't
Speaker 1: say I've ever heard someone ask it before. What would
Speaker 1: Athens have been named if Poseidon won the contest Poseidon's
Speaker 1: I just need your opinion on this. I'm so curious.
Speaker 1: I think it would be Poseidonia. I think there was
Speaker 1: a Poseidonia. I feel like I'm pronouncing that as if
Speaker 1: it's a pside letter Poseidonia. Yeah, I think I think
Speaker 1: that's what it would be, even though that sounds like
Speaker 1: modern though I'm trying to think of like places that
Speaker 1: end in O N. I don't even know It's interesting though.
Speaker 1: I like that question, but I think that today we
Speaker 1: would have said Poseidonia po sidonia. I'm pronouncing it like
Speaker 1: a pside. I'm keeping all of this in. You guys
Speaker 1: can hear how much I've just gotten inundated with the
Speaker 1: Greek language without actually learning enough of it. Okay, I
Speaker 1: have one to hear from Mary, who says, what's your
Speaker 1: all time favorite sappho fragment? Also apologies, apologies for nitpicking,
Speaker 1: but the correct pronunciation is les Vos, not les boss.
Speaker 1: I'm a Greek and this is my absolute pet peeve
Speaker 1: fun fact. Les Voss is also the home of Uzo.
Speaker 1: So just a great island all around. Mary, I am
Speaker 1: so glad, so glad that you emailed this because it's
Speaker 1: something I am really excited to talk about and to
Speaker 1: share with people, because I think that it's really important.
Speaker 1: So Number one sappho fragment, I'm just gonna say I
Speaker 1: have a sappho fragment tattooed. I'm actually just gonna lead
Speaker 1: me into this question or to the rest of my response.
Speaker 1: I think so I have a sapho fragment tattooed. It
Speaker 1: is translated roughly as I would not dare touch the
Speaker 1: sky with two hands. It's kind of my little gnad
Speaker 1: at all of those gods. You know. I have it
Speaker 1: tattooed in the original Iolic Greek on my collarbone, and
Speaker 1: every time I go to Greece, multiple people will stop
Speaker 1: me because it's really visible. It's right on my collarbone,
Speaker 1: and so somebody everyone will stop me and just be like,
Speaker 1: that's Greek, and I'm like yes, but and they stare
Speaker 1: at it and I'm like, can you read it? And
Speaker 1: they're like no, it's baffling, and I was like, I
Speaker 1: know because not only is it ancient Greek, but it's
Speaker 1: Iolic Greek, which is what Sapho, what Sappho spoke, but
Speaker 1: also it makes it so they like these some different
Speaker 1: letters than Attic Greek. And so I think even when
Speaker 1: Greek people know ancient Greek, they know Attic because that
Speaker 1: was the more broadly understood or Oromeric, and both of
Speaker 1: those are different from Iolic. And so I've had people
Speaker 1: tell me it's wrong, and I'm like, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: correct you your Greek. It's not my place to correct you,
Speaker 1: and that's fine, But in my head, I'm just like,
Speaker 1: I know it's because it's iolic and they were really weird.
Speaker 1: But all that to say, so number one, I should
Speaker 1: have been pronouncing it sap fo for this response, because
Speaker 1: you're Greek, and I know that in modern Greek, actually
Speaker 1: in ancient Greek. Two it's sep foe. So now because
Speaker 1: of the spelling in Greek, because you know English, we
Speaker 1: have P and pH and pH makes a f sound
Speaker 1: in English, right, But because it's a P right next
Speaker 1: to it, we don't differentiate them. We say sapho like
Speaker 1: as if as if the the pph is just making
Speaker 1: that f sound. Now, reasonably that shouldn't be the case. Right,
Speaker 1: there's two p's, so it is sep foe, particularly because
Speaker 1: in Greek there is there's two different letters. Right, there's
Speaker 1: the P. It's not a P, but in English it's
Speaker 1: a P and a pH. The letter pH is a letter,
Speaker 1: and so it is sap fo. Anyway, you didn't ask
Speaker 1: what sap fo. I respect that you didn't correct, that
Speaker 1: you correct my life, and you're not wrong, but also
Speaker 1: you're a tiny bit wrong, but I'm not I promise
Speaker 1: I'm not telling you you're wrong wrong. So yes, it's lesvos,
Speaker 1: no question. I know the island now is les Vos.
Speaker 1: When I'm in Greece and talking about the island, when
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the modern island, all of that, I
Speaker 1: am always saying lesvos. I want to make that clear.
Speaker 1: That said, I wasn't really that clear on it when
Speaker 1: I recorded that episode, but I am now. It's lesvos. However,
Speaker 1: etymologically speaking, the bee that I know in Greek beta
Speaker 1: is now veda and therefore les vos. But in ancient
Speaker 1: Greek that bee was more of a B sound, because
Speaker 1: the bee beta is what gave Latin the bee, which
Speaker 1: is what gave English the bee. And then over you know,
Speaker 1: the course of the two thousand years in between modern
Speaker 1: Greek just ended up at some point, you know, the
Speaker 1: pronunciation changed and it is a v sound now. So
Speaker 1: all of that is to say that it is acceptable
Speaker 1: in English. I will say, English people speaking ancient Greek
Speaker 1: will say les boss or lesbos with a B sound,
Speaker 1: and that is because the understood English pronunciation of ancient Greek,
Speaker 1: and by that I mean English people pronouncing ancient Greek
Speaker 1: is to still hit the beta with the B sound,
Speaker 1: and in modern Greek it's lesvos. But I know that
Speaker 1: in Greece, you pronounce it les vos even if you're
Speaker 1: talking in ancient Greek, so I'm not saying that's wrong.
Speaker 1: But in terms of how how English people are taught
Speaker 1: ancient Greek, we still say the bee in ancient words.
Speaker 1: But again, I'm really glad you asked that, because I
Speaker 1: think it's really really interesting to look at how you
Speaker 1: know how English people are taught ancient Greek and how
Speaker 1: they understand the pronunciation. I'm being really wishy washy with
Speaker 1: how I phrase this, because it's my understanding that that
Speaker 1: most academics who study fully study ancient Greek the language
Speaker 1: will say that it it was a B sound back
Speaker 1: then and that it is a v sound now. But
Speaker 1: I don't know how Greek people learn it when they
Speaker 1: learn the ancient Greek. So I do, and I don't
Speaker 1: want to. I don't want to say that anyone's wrong,
Speaker 1: but that is generally the accepted way of reading those letters.
Speaker 1: But again, in modern Greek, one hundred percent lesvos, no question, lesvos. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I hate uzo, though I'm so sorry. I want to
Speaker 1: love it, but I fucking hate, like licorice tasting anything.
Speaker 1: USO's like the one Greek thing. I just I can't
Speaker 1: do it, and it makes me so sad. I want
Speaker 1: to go to Lesvos so bad. Though. For our last
Speaker 1: little clip break, I'm actually gonna play two because I
Speaker 1: couldn't pick between them, so I'm playing them both. So
Speaker 1: these are two episodes I did last year. Again, there
Speaker 1: are two episodes that I think are pretty underrated in
Speaker 1: the grand scheme of my conversations, and so I want
Speaker 1: you all to listen to a couple little bits of them,
Speaker 1: and you know, maybe want to go back and have
Speaker 1: a listen to the whole episodes, either again or for
Speaker 1: the first time. The first is with Christi Vogler, who
Speaker 1: came on the show to talk about women and magic
Speaker 1: and medicine and like basically how women practicing medicine in
Speaker 1: the ancient world were treated like witches, but men practicing
Speaker 1: it were doctors. Like that's a real generalization. Christy has
Speaker 1: so much to say. Fascinating, fascinating episode. So here's a
Speaker 1: clip of that, and then it's going to be followed
Speaker 1: by one of my favorites. For the sheer volume of
Speaker 1: both fascination and silliness. I was joined by Kate Miniti,
Speaker 1: who I swear, I'm just not Italian enough to pronounce
Speaker 1: your last name correctly. I'm sorry. Kate is so much fun.
Speaker 1: And Kate came on to talk about Herodotus, but specifically
Speaker 1: Herodotus and in Egypt, because Kate is an Egyptologist, and
Speaker 1: herotodas said some really wild shit about Egypt, and it
Speaker 1: was just so much fun hearing all of that. We
Speaker 1: had a ball. So please enjoy those two clips and
Speaker 1: take a listen maybe to the whole episodes of the
Speaker 1: conversations that I have shared with you today, because they're
Speaker 1: just so much fun. I love my conversations. Oh what
Speaker 1: a joy.
Speaker 5: So, for instance, at Pompeii, Ria Berg has done some
Speaker 5: research of a pair of medical tools found in one
Speaker 5: of the houses there, and she's identified one that actually
Speaker 5: has a person's name written on the tool, and it's Sperata,
Speaker 5: And she makes an argument that this is a slave
Speaker 5: woman's name, and it starts to become the question of like,
Speaker 5: all right, if this is a slave woman, what is
Speaker 5: her relationship with the different patients she would have in
Speaker 5: the house, Like what is her relationship with the domina
Speaker 5: and the potter familia? Like how does she balance care
Speaker 5: for them? Versus care for slaves, especially like if slaves
Speaker 5: are coming to her for pharmacia, that would allow them
Speaker 5: to have an abortion because they don't want a child
Speaker 5: born into slavery. And how do you balance the expectations
Speaker 5: of both sides and navigate that, which, to me is
Speaker 5: the most interesting questions you can ask about the lived
Speaker 5: realities that these women had that never get commented upon
Speaker 5: in the literature we see a lot of the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I imagine nobody was writing that kind
Speaker 1: of thing down And I think that's why I like.
Speaker 5: The other reason I like this moment in the NIDS
Speaker 5: so much is, you know, there's a big debate about
Speaker 5: going to Greek and Roman literature predominantly written by wealthy
Speaker 5: literate men of the time, and like how much can
Speaker 5: you actually learn about women's lives.
Speaker 1: From their point of view? And I you know, arguably.
Speaker 5: There's a lot here that it's it's definitely a skewed view,
Speaker 5: but like that instance, like all of a sudden, you
Speaker 5: think Virgil is thinking about his own mother taking care
Speaker 5: of him, or these stories passed on if you go
Speaker 5: back to Homer, like who survived the Fall of Troy?
Speaker 5: It was mostly women who were enslaved, and they're the
Speaker 5: ones who desperately want to tell the stories of what happened.
Speaker 5: And so how do those little glimmers of what women
Speaker 5: experience actually make into the literature itself? And trying to
Speaker 5: pick those out is really exciting for me if I
Speaker 5: can find the physical evidence to go with it.
Speaker 6: Because Egypt, as we know, was considered was held in
Speaker 6: their high regard from the Greeks because it was a
Speaker 6: very ancient civilization. They were revered as doctors, priests, magicians,
Speaker 6: slightly reentalistic. I mean, I hear, you know Edward said
Speaker 6: rolling in his tomb, but you know, uh, they were.
Speaker 6: They were held in very in very high regards. So
Speaker 6: Hrontus is trying to to prove that, like many things
Speaker 6: that the Greeks were doing well, are coming from Egypt,
Speaker 6: including the gods, which is one big thing because sometimes
Speaker 6: when people read Book two, he's using the Greek names
Speaker 6: of the like the Greek names of gods to indicate
Speaker 6: Egyptian gods. But that's not because he's trying to make
Speaker 6: it easier for his readers. He's actually saying these are
Speaker 6: the same gods. Interesting, Yeah, he's really really trying and
Speaker 6: this and with the gods. It is fantastic because like
Speaker 6: the lengths to which he goes to try to fit
Speaker 6: several Greek gods onto like to map them onto Egyptian gods.
Speaker 6: So thats it. It doesn't quite work.
Speaker 1: No, their gods are so different.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he has he has always like, oh, well, a
Speaker 6: moon is Zoos and like, okay, well, he's technically the
Speaker 6: head of the pantheon, but a moon is not a
Speaker 6: sky god. He's the hidden one. He's like the god.
Speaker 6: You're like, okay, well, that's that's fair. And like a
Speaker 6: moon has the the ram horns, and Zeus sometimes has
Speaker 6: the ram horns. Okay, I can see that. Hathor and afradiety,
Speaker 6: that's okay. You know, fertility goddess is sex, drugs, you know,
Speaker 6: happiness music, Okay, that I can see that.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 6: Then when you get to like, oh, Neath is Athena,
Speaker 6: It's like, yes, a warrior goddess, that's fair, but Neath
Speaker 6: is not a goddess of crafts. She's really like a
Speaker 6: warrior questionable rise Helius, that's fine, you know, the sun
Speaker 6: god and everything else. And then you get like, oh
Speaker 6: isis is Demeter?
Speaker 7: No, no, no, no, I don't see that no, that
Speaker 7: that's that doesn't that doesn't really work, and like nothing
Speaker 7: against Demeter, like Isis is the great of magic.
Speaker 6: She's like the like one of the most powerful, if
Speaker 6: not the most powerful Egyptian goddess. She knows the secret
Speaker 6: name of Ra. She can control him because he knows
Speaker 6: the secret name. And Demeter is really not that.
Speaker 1: No, she's important, but in her own way of like ear.
Speaker 6: Right, the similarity is from is from the story of
Speaker 6: like isis going around the earth to try and gather
Speaker 6: the pieces of her husband, which fair, Demeter does that too,
Speaker 6: but just to find to find her daughter. But then
Speaker 6: he conveniently ignores the rest of the story and the
Speaker 6: rest of the rest of what isis is and the
Speaker 6: fact that her child is not a daughter but like Ason.
Speaker 6: So it's it's it's it gets complicated that even like
Speaker 6: Osiris and Dionysus. Yes, Osiris gets killed and then is
Speaker 6: kind of reborn, but he's still a mummy and he's
Speaker 6: still in the underworld. He's the rule of the underworld,
Speaker 6: so by those standards he should be hated, but he's not. Yeah,
Speaker 6: see what I get.
Speaker 1: At, It's yeah, complicated. Syrus of Dionysus is like, I
Speaker 1: don't get that at all. Ept is so interesting because
Speaker 1: there you can make other like obviously there's a lot
Speaker 1: of connections between gods across the Mediterranean, but it is
Speaker 1: harder to map them onto Egypt than it is even
Speaker 1: to map like Phoenician gods and like an Assyrian gods
Speaker 1: onto Greek, like they fit better than the Egyptian ones do,
Speaker 1: at least in my limited knowledge. But yeah, and the.
Speaker 6: Other issue with Egypt is that like every province or
Speaker 6: city has its own very specific gods. There are so many,
Speaker 6: there are so many, And sometimes he takes a very
Speaker 6: specific god from like a smaller province and makes it
Speaker 6: into you know, a larger one and that doesn't really work.
Speaker 6: Or he takes a goddess that is relatively important because
Speaker 6: she's one of the of the two ladies that signifying Egypt,
Speaker 6: like she's the goddess Wadjet and she's a snake, and
Speaker 6: he says, oh, yeah, she's lethal, and why how did
Speaker 6: you get there?
Speaker 3: How did that?
Speaker 6: You know, how did that happen? And of course he
Speaker 6: tries to fit in Greek mythological figures and heroes, but
Speaker 6: he has to kind of make them into gods. So
Speaker 6: he says, oh, clearly, Apaphos, who is the son of
Speaker 6: Ayu's clearly the appis Bull, which was a relatively new
Speaker 6: cult in Egypt at the time, relatively new like a millennium, so,
Speaker 6: you know, relatively new.
Speaker 1: In Egyptian no other culture.
Speaker 6: In Egyptian times. Or he's trying to say that Heracles
Speaker 6: is clearly Egyptian, and he's the god Consu. But Consu
Speaker 6: is a lunar god. And yes he's he's a warrior,
Speaker 6: but he's mostly a lunar god, and he's a god,
Speaker 6: he's not a hero. So he's he's trying, he's trying
Speaker 6: to make this or percious. He says, oh, he's the
Speaker 6: probably the god of Akmen. But the god means is
Speaker 6: clearly not percious. He I was about to say something vulgar.
Speaker 6: I'll say this and then will cut it. He has
Speaker 6: something long and jutting, and it's not a sword. He's
Speaker 6: a little falling god. So he's trying to make these days.
Speaker 6: But he he really wants to make this connection and
Speaker 6: to crime in the Homeric tradition into the chronology of
Speaker 6: mythology of vijub.
Speaker 1: Okay I have a really, really fucking lovely message to
Speaker 1: read here. This person did not provide their name. This
Speaker 1: made me so happy. Okay they say a little weird. Sorry.
Speaker 1: I was just listening to your conversation episode from last
Speaker 1: year where you talked about sea creatures lash monsters in
Speaker 1: myth and in it you mentioned you were homeschooled. I
Speaker 1: was homeschooled as well, and I've always felt embarrassed by
Speaker 1: it because I feel like I missed out on normal
Speaker 1: kid experiences and common learning opportunities. Hearing you mentioned briefly
Speaker 1: about your experience helped me feel a little more comfortable
Speaker 1: with mine and has started me down the path of
Speaker 1: sitting with those embarrassment feelings rather than suppressing them. Listening
Speaker 1: to your podcast has helped me in so many different ways,
Speaker 1: but I think this has been the most impactful. Not
Speaker 1: a question, really, but I wanted to thank you for
Speaker 1: the time and effort you put into the show. It's
Speaker 1: the highlight of my drive to work. I can't imagine
Speaker 1: not laughing, crying, cursing theseus along with you and all
Speaker 1: the other listeners. This made me so happy. I was
Speaker 1: actually with my mom when it came into my email,
Speaker 1: and I had to tell her about it because obviously
Speaker 1: she's the one who homeschooled me. But yeah, so I
Speaker 1: was homeschooled until grade five until I was ten, and
Speaker 1: I fucking love it.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 1: When I was a kid, though, I agree, like I
Speaker 1: really was embarrassed because I didn't go to school and
Speaker 1: I didn't do those things. And you know, when you're
Speaker 1: a kid, you just want to be normal. You want
Speaker 1: everything about your existence to be like everyone else is,
Speaker 1: because when you're different, it feels bad. And then I think,
Speaker 1: you know, the more you get older and everything, like,
Speaker 1: depending on the situation, some of those things change. And
Speaker 1: for me, I just became kind of excited that I
Speaker 1: was homeschooled. For me, I associate it with like for one,
Speaker 1: you know, and I think I've said this before when
Speaker 1: I've mentioned it, but like I was not like religious homeschooled,
Speaker 1: which I do think probably has like a different connotation
Speaker 1: if you're no longer religious, all those different things. Like
Speaker 1: I was just my mom was educated in a way
Speaker 1: that she could have taught at a school, and she
Speaker 1: just wanted to do it. I was like hippie homeschooled,
Speaker 1: you know, very you know, that kind of vibe, And
Speaker 1: for me, what it amounted to is that, like, I
Speaker 1: just don't remember having to learn anything before the age
Speaker 1: of ten. I don't remember having to sit down and
Speaker 1: do my school work or do homework or sit in
Speaker 1: a classroom or anything. And whatever my mom did worked
Speaker 1: great because I went into school and I was like
Speaker 1: reading at a like fourteen year old level and all
Speaker 1: these different things, and instead for me, all I remember
Speaker 1: is a childhood. And it also helped that we like
Speaker 1: had all these different things that I think made it
Speaker 1: really easy for my mom. There was a big community
Speaker 1: out here because everyone's a fucking hippie, and you know,
Speaker 1: we were able to do these big group things. So
Speaker 1: I still had a lot of interactions with other kids
Speaker 1: my age, and it was kind of like school, but
Speaker 1: like never in a classroom, and it was just great.
Speaker 1: So anyway, I don't know I'm explaining all of that,
Speaker 1: but like, I fucking love that you hearing that made
Speaker 1: you feel better about your because I don't think there's
Speaker 1: anything to be ashamed about. I don't know how old
Speaker 1: you are, but if you are younger, you know, the
Speaker 1: older you get, the less school remotely matters, you know,
Speaker 1: And it just became it becomes that like that bit
Speaker 1: about your life in the past, like I I was homeschooled.
Speaker 1: I finished twenty five years ago, because that's how math works,
Speaker 1: and that's weird. And so for me now it's just
Speaker 1: like that thing in my life that made me weird
Speaker 1: and different, but like doesn't matter anymore and it's just
Speaker 1: kind of fun. And now I use it as like
Speaker 1: a silly anecdote when people are like, yeah, when I
Speaker 1: was in grade one, or yeah, when I was doing this,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I don't remember, or not even I
Speaker 1: don't remember. I don't have that experience. I don't have
Speaker 1: an experience before grade five, which is kind of wild,
Speaker 1: and I don't know. I just then made me really happy,
Speaker 1: And I hope that you continue feeling good about it,
Speaker 1: because there's nothing to be embarrassed about. It doesn't matter,
Speaker 1: like being in school doesn't matter. School feels like it's
Speaker 1: the most important thing in the entire world when you're
Speaker 1: in it, and then once you're out of it, like
Speaker 1: why the fuck did I stress out so much about
Speaker 1: what other people thought about me back then and what
Speaker 1: was weird or not weird or normal or not normal,
Speaker 1: Like it just falls away to an extent. Still care
Speaker 1: what people think, but not about school anyway. It made
Speaker 1: it meant the world to me that you heard that
Speaker 1: and that it helped you. It's really cool and it's
Speaker 1: really fucking nice reminder about what this show does for people.
Speaker 1: And again, sometimes I have this like disconnect because I
Speaker 1: just sit in my apartment and I record this, and like, yes,
Speaker 1: I have social media and stuff that connects me with
Speaker 1: you all, but that's about it. And like it's really
Speaker 1: nice to have this personal moment and have that shared
Speaker 1: with me, and I just it makes me really happy.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I'm really glad I helped. And
Speaker 1: I hope you keep getting more and more comfy with
Speaker 1: being homeschooled. It's just a fun anecdote for me now
Speaker 1: I hope it becomes that for you too. Okay. I
Speaker 1: have one from Paris and they said recently, my coworkers
Speaker 1: and I played BA trivia where we had to guess
Speaker 1: popular survey answers to questions. The question asked, besides Heracles
Speaker 1: and the Olympians, who is the most famous Greek hero.
Speaker 1: My team correctly answered that the public would have would
Speaker 1: submit the top answers as Achilles, Odysseus, Jason, Perseus, and theseus. However,
Speaker 1: one coworker was adamant that Icarus would be in the
Speaker 1: top five. I did my best to explain that he
Speaker 1: is from Greek myth, but not necessarily a hero, and
Speaker 1: he had no quest nor did he slay any monsters.
Speaker 1: But my coworker wasn't satisfied. Is there a better explanation
Speaker 1: of heroism that I gave than I gave which would
Speaker 1: explain why Icarus isn't a hero? Yes, and no. Your
Speaker 1: reasons were absolutely valid, and they would be what I
Speaker 1: would say. Icris is not a hero, That's all there
Speaker 1: is to it. Just because you're a man in Greek
Speaker 1: myths doesn't make you a hero.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: Even like so, the thing about the definitions you used,
Speaker 1: which again I would have used to they don't apply
Speaker 1: to like say, the heroes of the Trojan War like
Speaker 1: their heroes, but their heroes in a different way, because
Speaker 1: it's more like they are sort of pre hero They
Speaker 1: kind of come from this realm before, not chronologically before,
Speaker 1: but like like in terms of the stories, but like
Speaker 1: historically before the Greek heroes, and so they just kind
Speaker 1: of fit in their own category because like you know,
Speaker 1: Achilles doesn't kill a monster right, But it's difficult because
Speaker 1: the answer is just simply that absolutely Icarus is not
Speaker 1: a hero. You can just play me saying this if
Speaker 1: you want, but no, I mean your reasons were very
Speaker 1: valid heroes in order to be like a quote unquote hero,
Speaker 1: and I already talked earlier about how I don't think
Speaker 1: that the ancient Greeks would necessarily define it in the
Speaker 1: same way. Nor do I think that they really thought
Speaker 1: too hard about what made a hero and like aligning
Speaker 1: their characters with those things. I don't think that they
Speaker 1: thought about it too much. I think it just kind
Speaker 1: of resulted this way. But yeah, Icarus would have needed
Speaker 1: to have some kind of divine origin. Usually, he would
Speaker 1: have needed needed to defeat someone. He would have needed
Speaker 1: to do anything. Honestly, Achros doesn't do anything. He just
Speaker 1: sucks at flying and then he's done. Yeah, it's hard
Speaker 1: to define why he's not a hero because because it's
Speaker 1: so obvious that he's not a hero. I hope that
Speaker 1: was helpful. I really enjoyed this question because it just
Speaker 1: made me go, like, of course it Chris isn't hero.
Speaker 1: How do I even define? Of course he's not hen't
Speaker 1: he does nothing like what I would want. I guess instead,
Speaker 1: is I want this person to give you one reason
Speaker 1: why he would be a hero, like I think, actually
Speaker 1: that's the better way of handling it. Give me one
Speaker 1: reason why Icarus should be counted amongst Greek heroes, just one,
Speaker 1: because there isn't any. It's hard to do. It's hard
Speaker 1: to deny something that's not there, or you know, disprove
Speaker 1: something that never existed. I don't know how to define that,
Speaker 1: but I think you get me. That was one, all right?
Speaker 1: Now we have one from Becca, and she says, first,
Speaker 1: I just want to say I have been obsessively listening
Speaker 1: to your show since I discovered it a few years ago.
Speaker 1: I think I listened to your whole back catalog within
Speaker 1: a couple weeks, and I eagerly awaited Tuesdays and Friday
Speaker 1: since then. So thanks for providing me with such an interesting, informative,
Speaker 1: and hilarious way of wasting my time at work. I'm
Speaker 1: curious to hear your thoughts on how much the ancient
Speaker 1: Greeks actually believed the stories that they were telling. They
Speaker 1: worshiped the gods, but did they think that the stories
Speaker 1: they heard were true, that the gods had actually done
Speaker 1: those things of myth. I also wonder about how much
Speaker 1: of the epics like the Iliad and the Odyssey that
Speaker 1: they would consider to have happened in real life. I
Speaker 1: know you said you're not familiar with the Christian Bible,
Speaker 1: but it's often accepted that many of the stories contained
Speaker 1: it are not truthful but meant to prove a point.
Speaker 1: So I was wondering if the same could apply to
Speaker 1: the ancient Greeks in their mythology. I know this is
Speaker 1: super long, and I apologize, but I love to think
Speaker 1: about this stuff, and I hope that you continue the
Speaker 1: podcast for many more years to come. No, that was
Speaker 1: a great question. It was not too long at all. Okay,
Speaker 1: So number one, and I'm just gonna say this real quiet.
Speaker 1: The Bible is just as much mythology as Greek mythology.
Speaker 1: They're not different things. Okay, okay, uh yeah, So I
Speaker 1: mean the Iliad. I'll start with the Iliad. I do
Speaker 1: think that particularly during a specific kind of time period,
Speaker 1: maybe say let's say the Archaic period into the classical
Speaker 1: I do believe, and again this is an I do believe.
Speaker 1: These are my theories. I do believe that the Trojan
Speaker 1: War was accepted as a cultural history. I don't know
Speaker 1: what people would say if you were talking to them
Speaker 1: about it and you were like, Okay, yes, the Trojan
Speaker 1: War happened, but like did Aphrodite actually save aneas? Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know how much they would have, you know,
Speaker 1: explained that, like, yes, the gods were just as involved,
Speaker 1: like really hands on involved. I don't know, but I
Speaker 1: do think, yes, the Trojan War was cultural history in
Speaker 1: the same way that Homer is cultural history, right, they
Speaker 1: believed that Homer was real. As for the mythology itself,
Speaker 1: I think sort of a fifty to fifty I think
Speaker 1: that I don't know. I think that again, I think
Speaker 1: that they weren't necessarily concerned with how real it was.
Speaker 1: They were concerned with what it represented, what it meant
Speaker 1: for them and their culture and their history and who
Speaker 1: they were as a people, as a defined kind of group. Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think it was just I don't think it
Speaker 1: was a huge concern. You know, they worshiped the gods,
Speaker 1: They believed in the gods. I don't know how much
Speaker 1: they were actually, you know, worried about zoos coming down
Speaker 1: and like assaulting somebody or smiting them or what have you. Like,
Speaker 1: I don't really know. I really wonder, and I wonder
Speaker 1: what kind of actual history there is about this, Like
Speaker 1: I wonder if there is any better answer for this
Speaker 1: love to hear it, because I think it just sort
Speaker 1: of wasn't a concern so much. The Odyssey is trickier
Speaker 1: to say too, Like, I don't know. I think that
Speaker 1: they thought Odysseus was real. I think that they believed
Speaker 1: he was the king of Ithaca. I think they believed
Speaker 1: he had trouble getting home. If you were to ask somebody,
Speaker 1: you know, really specifically, if the cyclops was real, if
Speaker 1: he really let the winds loose out of that bag
Speaker 1: and fucked himself over, like all these different kind of
Speaker 1: more magical things, I wonder what they would say. So
Speaker 1: I think it's just sort of really unclear, really amorphous,
Speaker 1: really dependent upon the person, the time period, the questions
Speaker 1: you're asking, the things they're thinking about. Like I just yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's not answerable, and I think that's what
Speaker 1: makes it interesting. So I'm really glad you asked, all right.
Speaker 1: This next one is from Evan and she says, I
Speaker 1: absolutely love the podcast. I've been listening for years and
Speaker 1: currently always have it playing when I am working in
Speaker 1: the office, I run a DNA group in a world
Speaker 1: based around Greek mythology. I use your podcast in book
Speaker 1: pretty much as a bible when I am planning sessions
Speaker 1: and things. It makes me. It makes so much easier
Speaker 1: for everything being in one place. I just want to
Speaker 1: say thank you for creating my favorite podcast and that
Speaker 1: you are absolutely fantastic. Have you ever thought of traveling
Speaker 1: to the UK, specifically Scotland, but London works as well.
Speaker 1: We aren't really a large nation to attend cons or
Speaker 1: do an event. God, I would love to. I really
Speaker 1: think the problem with everything around my doing of any
Speaker 1: kind of events is that I started doing events in
Speaker 1: November and then February, like it was November of twenty
Speaker 1: nineteen when I did my first event, and then February
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty when I did my first big event. So,
Speaker 1: needless to say, kind of just stopped right in its
Speaker 1: tracks and it's kind of I really haven't been presented
Speaker 1: with any opportunity since then. That said, I also haven't
Speaker 1: gone looking, but I would love to. I want to
Speaker 1: go to I really want to go to London because
Speaker 1: I want to go to the British Museum and I
Speaker 1: want to see all the stuff they've stolen since they
Speaker 1: can't see it in Greece. But I would also love
Speaker 1: to see Edinburgh, just purely for my own desire to
Speaker 1: see Scotland. So goals. Yes, in anything in the near future,
Speaker 1: not that I know of, but it would be really fun.
Speaker 1: I gotta make it happen. I don't know figure it
Speaker 1: out all right. Next question, second to lasts from Liz,
Speaker 1: who says, HI live big fan of all your work.
Speaker 1: Been listening for about a year now. I was curious
Speaker 1: to know if you'd ever do a trip to Greece
Speaker 1: with some of your podcast listeners. Well, Liz, if you
Speaker 1: follow me on Instagram, you might have seen this already
Speaker 1: because this was inspired by you. This was I have
Speaker 1: been asked a lot of times whether I would do
Speaker 1: a group trip to Greece. A lot of times you
Speaker 1: just had really good timing on yours. But in the
Speaker 1: past I've always kind of written it off because I
Speaker 1: am an incredibly introverted and anxious person, socially socially anxious,
Speaker 1: and the idea of having to host and entertain strangers
Speaker 1: gives me the kind of anxiety that might make a
Speaker 1: person in play but then I thought about it more
Speaker 1: and more and I thought, Okay, ultimately it would be
Speaker 1: really fun. I just have to find a way that
Speaker 1: it won't make me anxious. So I'm currently working on that.
Speaker 1: I'm hoping to find a company that will handle everything
Speaker 1: so that I don't have to so that I don't
Speaker 1: have to be stressed at all, so that I don't
Speaker 1: have to entertain or worry about, you know, anything. And
Speaker 1: once I figure that out, we're going to do this.
Speaker 1: We're going to do this thing. We are not least
Speaker 1: because when I posted this this notion on Instagram, I
Speaker 1: had like three hundred people interested. So I think it's time.
Speaker 1: So stay tuned very early stages. It's literally at this point,
Speaker 1: it's just me being like, Okay, I can do this
Speaker 1: if I figured it out right. And now we got
Speaker 1: to figure it out right, so stay tuned. But I
Speaker 1: do I want to make this work all right. And
Speaker 1: my last question, my last question really important. I saved
Speaker 1: it for last. It's vital. I think it's absolutely vital.
Speaker 1: It is from Airy who says, what is your favorite
Speaker 1: dinosaur and which god or goddess would they represent? Great question.
Speaker 1: I don't have good reasoning for why. My immediate answer
Speaker 1: is a Trannosaurus Rex and arrows, but I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: with it. I got no reasons, king lizard, king and arrows.
Speaker 1: I don't know why. Thank you. That was great. Fucking
Speaker 1: love dinosaurs though Drassic Park for life. It's great stuff.
Speaker 1: Dinosaurs are super cool. Oh my, dear listeners, Thank you
Speaker 1: all so much for listening, for sending in your questions
Speaker 1: and your comments and messages that may or may not
Speaker 1: have made me almost cry again. It all really means
Speaker 1: the world to me. I forget how much I love
Speaker 1: these purely because I feel real validation in what I'm
Speaker 1: doing and that it's really worth it, and that I helping,
Speaker 1: that I'm just like making a difference, and that you
Speaker 1: guys all really take something lovely away from it. It
Speaker 1: really made me feel so good to read these and
Speaker 1: to share them all with you, and just to get
Speaker 1: them generally. It's really nice. And I don't know what
Speaker 1: else to say, because I have trouble being sincere. While
Speaker 1: not trouble being sincere, I have trouble being vulnerable. I
Speaker 1: have a lot of trouble being vulnerable. And that's how
Speaker 1: this feels right now. So I'm just gonna wrap up
Speaker 1: again by saying thank you enormously, truly, thank you. Thank
Speaker 1: you for listening. Thank you for listening to the show.
Speaker 1: Whether it's been a month or six years or whatever
Speaker 1: in between, thank you. It helps me so much. Listening
Speaker 1: helps so much. If you review me on Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: you're a game changer. I fucking love you. It'll just
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you. Faristopoli. I am live
Speaker 1: and oh my god, I love this ship so much
Speaker 1: and I love all of you, and I love my job,
Speaker 1: and I love everything. Thank you. Okay, bye,