Speaker 1: Oh hi, hello there, I am liv and this is
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Miss Baby, and I am here with
Speaker 1: yet another conversation episode. And as always questioning why I
Speaker 1: sing the title of my podcast, now, let me just
Speaker 1: say that there is a few like are a little
Speaker 1: wild coincidence happening in this episode, and that is aside
Speaker 1: from the fact that it was just like seriously fun
Speaker 1: and genuinely hilarious to record. So I spoke with Jerome Ruddick,
Speaker 1: who's studying his PhD at Newcastle University in the UK,
Speaker 1: and he told me everything I didn't know that I
Speaker 1: needed to know about material culture and real life humans
Speaker 1: interacting with their mythology during the Hellenistic period of ancient Greece,
Speaker 1: but specifically in regions in Arcadia, on Crete and even
Speaker 1: in the Phoenician city of Tyr which was ruled by
Speaker 1: Hellenistic Greeks at the time. We recorded this episode ages ago, actually,
Speaker 1: like before I even went to Greece. Probably we recorded
Speaker 1: it in like I wanted to say, March, maybe it
Speaker 1: was April. It was a good long time ago, but
Speaker 1: I had so many episodes recorded at that time that
Speaker 1: it's just now coming out. And what do you know,
Speaker 1: we even briefly mentioned how Aphrodite has origins in the
Speaker 1: Phoenician goddess Astarte.
Speaker 2: What are the chances? I love it? And Jerome talks
Speaker 2: about how she's not alone. The Phoenician hero Melkart also
Speaker 2: gets major ties to the Greek hero obviously Heracles particular
Speaker 2: during this period. Absolutely fascinating. Anyway, it was super fun,
Speaker 2: super fascinating. Jerome was fucking hilarious and called Pausanius big
Speaker 2: Pe multiple times as though that was just like the
Speaker 2: only thing to call him, and frankly, it's just become
Speaker 2: one of my favorite things, you know. So here we
Speaker 2: are conversations not to have a go at big Pa
Speaker 2: Pausanius material culture in the Hellenistic period with Jerome Ruddick.
Speaker 2: I really was excited about the topic you presented because
Speaker 2: I obviously know Greek mythology like the back of my hand,
Speaker 2: like really know. The story is like far too well
Speaker 2: at this point I think.
Speaker 3: You probably know it bets that I do. To be honest,
Speaker 3: actually I'm actually a lot better than I do.
Speaker 2: I'm I really like, I yeah, I don't try to
Speaker 2: hold back on my knowledge at this point. It is
Speaker 2: kind of excessive. The stuff that lives in my brain.
Speaker 2: But one of the things that I don't know that
Speaker 2: much about is like actual daily like life when it
Speaker 2: comes to this stuff. You know, like I know the
Speaker 2: sources and I know the stories, but one of the
Speaker 2: things that's so exciting about what you kind of proposed
Speaker 2: is this way of kind of talking about it in
Speaker 2: relation to the actual humans of that world. So like,
Speaker 2: why don't you just start by telling me like a
Speaker 2: little bit, what about what you study and when it
Speaker 2: comes to that and kind of yeah, really anything you
Speaker 2: want to say, but sort of an introduction on what
Speaker 2: you what you do.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, So I'm at the moment, I'm studying I'm
Speaker 3: studying Greek mythology, but I'm studying it in relation to
Speaker 3: identity and material culture. So it's how it's how that
Speaker 3: you function with one another, and how not any Greek
Speaker 3: mythology couldtributes to Greek identity, but how material culture is
Speaker 3: this like really important factor in allowing these myths to
Speaker 3: find root in these Greek communities and kind of make
Speaker 3: them more tangible, more kind of verifiable, you know, like
Speaker 3: really build them into Greek society. And that's that's really
Speaker 3: what I'm doing. And I'm looking at three communities as
Speaker 3: we do so at the moment, which we'll expand later.
Speaker 3: And that's crete place in Arcadia called like a Surah
Speaker 3: and the Phoenician and some of the Phoenicians tie on
Speaker 3: the eleven tine coats. O. Nice, that's very exact geographical mix.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I now already have so many questions and
Speaker 2: you've literally said like two things. But first, I think
Speaker 2: so because obviously, like my show is really for just
Speaker 2: like any old person who wants to learn about this stuff,
Speaker 2: which is the best part. But why don't can you
Speaker 2: just like give a quick explanation about like what material
Speaker 2: culture entails?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely so material cultures. It's really quite simple. Actually,
Speaker 3: everyone all the scholars trying to make sound complicated, but
Speaker 3: it's not. It's material culture. It's it's cups, its, it's pots,
Speaker 3: its sculpture, it's those, it's pediments on temple stuff like that. Everything,
Speaker 3: everything's material culture. A spoon is material culture.
Speaker 2: So I think it's like physical Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, pretty much, obnestly pretty much. Yeah, that's it. The
Speaker 3: clothes could be a type of material culture too, so yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, that's yeah, that's the thing, Like
Speaker 2: I've been learning more and more about that, and thankfully
Speaker 2: I get guests to come on and talk about that
Speaker 2: kind of thing. But like that's the kind of stuff
Speaker 2: that's so hard to sort of research on your own,
Speaker 2: which is why I love having these conversations. But like
Speaker 2: it does really impact so much about like the actual
Speaker 2: people like living these lives. Anyway, I'm clearly getting excited already,
Speaker 2: and I'm so yes, please tell me more about any
Speaker 2: of those places, or any of these things or literally anything.
Speaker 3: Well, the first thing with the start, and actually you
Speaker 3: mentioned a point just about how it's hard to research
Speaker 3: material culture. I agree with that because the first time
Speaker 3: I started the research into this topic, I ended up
Speaker 3: reading this really strange book about It was about classical sculpture,
Speaker 3: but it was from I think it was from the
Speaker 3: nineteen thirties or something. It was a little bit nineteen
Speaker 3: thirties issue. You know, they're a little bit they're very
Speaker 3: they really love the Greeks, but not like we love
Speaker 3: Greeks like you a kind of weird like clonial type way.
Speaker 3: It was a bit dodging. I was reading this book, going,
Speaker 3: what am I reading here? This is a bit funky.
Speaker 3: I had to throw that aside. So that's kind of
Speaker 3: where you went up and you saw like a terriic
Speaker 3: culture like oh no, sculpture and gets weird factors. I
Speaker 3: don't blame you, basically.
Speaker 2: Especially in the nineteen thirties, like that's the time period
Speaker 2: where they're like revering them as if they're just like
Speaker 2: the absolute most everything. Yeah, exactly, Like that just comes
Speaker 2: along with so much like like the Greeks are amazing,
Speaker 2: but like let's not pretend they're better than anyone else.
Speaker 3: Yeah that they're good, but they're like seventy percent good,
Speaker 3: not one hundred percent good. Yeah, they're good, fun, you know,
Speaker 3: middle ground good.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I'm just I'm just I'm just that was I'm slacking
Speaker 3: off the Greeks. Now, I love the Greeks. I should
Speaker 3: be doing that.
Speaker 2: I mean I do it too, And it's my territoryer
Speaker 2: to love them, so we can also criticize. That's the
Speaker 2: whole point of like, yeah, I think it's important.
Speaker 3: Reason debate discussion. Okay, so what was the question now,
Speaker 3: because I've lost it.
Speaker 2: I mean honestly, also, I love doing this is like
Speaker 2: just just let your brain go. It's fine. I have ADHD.
Speaker 2: It goes everywhere. Yeah, yeah, And I'm also like, I mean, honestly,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people in classics who have ADHD.
Speaker 2: It's it's kind of nice because I don't feel like
Speaker 2: my brain is going to throw everybody off. But I'm
Speaker 2: also like newly on medication and like, we'll see how
Speaker 2: anything works as I.
Speaker 3: Have questions about that, but I won't interrupt the podcast
Speaker 3: of that questions.
Speaker 2: No, but I get all that interest my god. But yeah,
Speaker 2: So I mean honestly, like I just want to hear anything.
Speaker 2: So my question was on I was really just like
Speaker 2: talk about anything. But I'm excited about all those regions.
Speaker 2: But I also don't want to like jump from one
Speaker 2: or like I don't anyway, I'm getting to this.
Speaker 3: Let's start with them. Okay, let's start with a very
Speaker 3: brief overview. I'll do like a Surah first, because it's
Speaker 3: kind of my favorite at the moment. It's well, I
Speaker 3: think I know the most about, which is helpful to
Speaker 3: stop me from pausing and in a knowing, So like
Speaker 3: a Surrah. So it's you know, Arcadia. Hopefully everyone's familiar
Speaker 3: with that because there's so many good stories in Arcadia.
Speaker 3: So in the region of Arcadia around sort of about
Speaker 3: the central area a little bit closer towards Sparta, so
Speaker 3: that it's hard to do about a map, but hopefully
Speaker 3: you're going to put the phones and look at that.
Speaker 3: But there's a town called like Asurah, and it's near
Speaker 3: this town called Megalopolis, which becomes very important because about again,
Speaker 3: I think it's three six eight BC, right, Megalopolis kind
Speaker 3: of go crazy and they want to take over everything,
Speaker 3: like we're going to take over these towns. So they
Speaker 3: get all the sanctuaries and either they destroy them or
Speaker 3: kind of take their sanctuary bits and like collate the
Speaker 3: mid to Megalopolis. So then Megalopolis is basically the sort
Speaker 3: of cosmopolitan hubful the sanctuaries. But the interesting bit is
Speaker 3: when we read the ancent sources, like a Surrah should
Speaker 3: have been destroyed too, because it's really close to Megaopolis,
Speaker 3: but it isn't. It stays a life for some reason,
Speaker 3: like it's sanctuaries intact, it's towns intact. The microsomes are
Speaker 3: having fun and things, and they say Pasdeas says that
Speaker 3: the sources, he's the main one we have sources about
Speaker 3: for this. He's like, oh yeah, like a serious vive
Speaker 3: because of Despoina, their local goddess who in the Megalopolins
Speaker 3: are like, oh yeah, they're nice, we like her, she's cool,
Speaker 3: and they let and they let them live. So it's
Speaker 3: really fascinating because then you're like, oh, my god, myth
Speaker 3: saved them. The mythology literally saved them for being well
Speaker 3: destroyed in the worst worst case.
Speaker 2: I also just love the idea that are like a
Speaker 2: place called Megalopolis is like gonna take it over everything,
Speaker 2: Like I feel like with that name, it's like, well,
Speaker 2: that was bound to happen.
Speaker 3: Well, I think I think, to be fair, I think
Speaker 3: they may have created the name because particular for everything
Speaker 3: the small smaller lot Polis before and then when they
Speaker 3: start ticular like I'm going to change it to middle
Speaker 3: Lolis and then become Megapolis.
Speaker 2: There you go. Yeah, just you got to make it work, right,
Speaker 2: It's like, just convince everyone that you're the biggest by
Speaker 2: calling yourself there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're too fair. Well you know what they say,
Speaker 3: like what once again, faket team make it And apparently
Speaker 3: they made it eventually, so they got that.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Despoine is so interesting because I've done like
Speaker 2: some really base level research on like I don't even
Speaker 2: know if I've researched on something like her. But the
Speaker 2: word is also often used as an epithet, isn't it
Speaker 2: Like I feel like it? Yeah, So it's really interesting.
Speaker 2: It's like both a goddess and an epithet, so it
Speaker 2: can be used along with like other goddesses, but then
Speaker 2: like as a physical or not physical obviously, but as
Speaker 2: like an actual technical goddess. Is she really specific to
Speaker 2: that area of Arcadia?
Speaker 3: Oh? She is not? Off hand, I appreciate it, like
Speaker 3: you're very shit hot on your stuff. We're dish of expected,
Speaker 3: but like you know, yeah beautiful, So yeah, she, yeah,
Speaker 3: she is. She's very specific. So basically this is interesting.
Speaker 3: Dspoyna is supposed to be we think persephone, you know,
Speaker 3: the springtime, all that Haiti stuff, So apparently it's another
Speaker 3: form of her, right, but they call it Daspoyner, and
Speaker 3: it's a bit of a mix whether or not. That's
Speaker 3: supposed to be like a sort of cultic like mysteries
Speaker 3: and Lucian mysteries name for her or something else. But
Speaker 3: it's supposed to translate to the mistress and basanias in
Speaker 3: his text also goes, we don't know her real name,
Speaker 3: and no one says it, you know, like so it's
Speaker 3: getting really mysterious and kind of a little bit like
Speaker 3: I don't know the word I'm looking I don't know
Speaker 3: what good word I'm looking for, kind of sexy, like
Speaker 3: you know, it's really kind of titilating. But but no,
Speaker 3: it's it is a very specific name to spoilne Is.
Speaker 3: She is very very specific to Arcadia, and I think
Speaker 3: there are some references of her, and I think it's
Speaker 3: like I'm on some of these smaller Greek islands, but
Speaker 3: it's pretty rare. It's it's not not universal. No, no, no,
Speaker 3: she is absolutely like Assyrian goddess, an Arcadian goddess. She's
Speaker 3: very in that region. Yeah, she's very cool.
Speaker 2: It's okay, here's more of my like deeply niche and
Speaker 2: unspecific knowledge that's really contradictory. Regardless. So I when I
Speaker 2: was last in Athens at the Archaeological Museum, they have
Speaker 2: this thing there the like I'm sure you know what
Speaker 2: I'm talking about, because it's.
Speaker 3: Like I have idea, but please go ahead. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm going to try to like describe it.
Speaker 2: But it's basically it's marble, but it's a like marble
Speaker 2: rendition of like a piece of clothing, and it's incredible.
Speaker 2: It's like all these folds and like it's unbelievable and
Speaker 2: it's all about her and like there's so many things
Speaker 2: on it. So is that, like you clearly know what
Speaker 2: I'm talking about obviously, because it's amazing. But is that
Speaker 2: something you've studied specifically, because I would love to know
Speaker 2: more about it.
Speaker 3: Yes, it is something I study specifically.
Speaker 2: I forget what it.
Speaker 3: Oh, so it's it's cool. Then to spoint is veil
Speaker 3: or the veil of Dispoina, and it would have been
Speaker 3: attached to the back of her I min mean this,
Speaker 3: but I know no one can see it, so just done,
Speaker 3: picture me my meaning there's a veil coming out of
Speaker 3: the back of her head. And this is literally what
Speaker 3: their of study. So I can tell you quite a
Speaker 3: lot of doubt it if.
Speaker 2: You please, because also I can share pictures of it
Speaker 2: when I share the episode because I took somebody I
Speaker 2: forget who it was, but somebody on Twitter like classics
Speaker 2: Twitter like asked me or just put out a call
Speaker 2: being like I need pictures of and I was like
Speaker 2: I'm one of the archaeological museum, Like tomorrow, I can
Speaker 2: take them, so.
Speaker 3: I have pictures too. To the point, I was there
Speaker 3: taking pictures of it, and the people in the museum
Speaker 3: were staring at me weirdly because I've been there for
Speaker 3: ten minutes taking pictures, and I was like, I looked
Speaker 3: at them, and my wife came up to me as well,
Speaker 3: and she was like, you need to stop taking pictures
Speaker 3: because I think they think you're like planted a bomb
Speaker 3: or something on the veil. Good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I took like every single angle. I think I
Speaker 2: have like twenty pictures of that piece.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, that's absolutely you need to because it's
Speaker 3: it's so intricate. It's really it's not it's cool. Okay,
Speaker 3: I'll tell I'll tell you about it. Okay, I'll tell
Speaker 3: you the the most interesting thing I think about it.
Speaker 3: I think the most interesting thing about this, And this
Speaker 3: is coming from this is not entirely on me. This
Speaker 3: this is from a scholar called Planetice I believe on
Speaker 3: planet Is who basically did most of the the the
Speaker 3: legwork as far as far as I can tell about this,
Speaker 3: but basically it looks like the so the cult group
Speaker 3: in general, the whole court group of Despoina, but particularly
Speaker 3: the veil. It looks like it's like collated mythologies from
Speaker 3: across the Arcadian region, right, So it's stuff like there's Zeus,
Speaker 3: there's Side in the Pass, there's there's there's zoomorphic images,
Speaker 3: so like a huge hybrid figures, like you know, half
Speaker 3: human half animal, and it seems to have collected all
Speaker 3: these Arcadian myths, all these local Arcadian myths, and put
Speaker 3: them on this veil. And it's really interesting why they've
Speaker 3: done that, And I've got some opinions. I'll share that
Speaker 3: and then like a separate bit, but I've got some
Speaker 3: opinions on why. But it's really fascinating. So they use
Speaker 3: material culture basically to get all these myths and kind
Speaker 3: of shove them into like a SIA, so like a series,
Speaker 3: kind of a sort of a patron, a holder, a
Speaker 3: guardian of all of them, which is, well, I haven't
Speaker 3: I think you only really see it at a sleepy
Speaker 3: the escleep on you Sclepias. They usually like collato loads
Speaker 3: of mythologies there, but otherwise I don't know if I've
Speaker 3: seen that happen anywhere else. I'm sure there's someone listening
Speaker 3: who goes, oh, there's tons. You're a fool. You haven't
Speaker 3: you know, I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't know too much about integrates. It's fine, but
Speaker 2: we can't know every year.
Speaker 3: It's a big it's a big country, you know, and
Speaker 3: they spread out so far that you have to look
Speaker 3: at like half of Asia before you can really start.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that piece is so incredible too, because, like I feel,
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure it wasn't necessarily unique in the
Speaker 2: ancient world, but in terms of what survives, it's fairly
Speaker 2: unique in the way that it is so incredibly detailed,
Speaker 2: like you're saying, featuring all of these different myths and
Speaker 2: like characters and things and just like one like marble
Speaker 2: piece of fabric.
Speaker 3: M Yeah it is. They they've really gone they've really
Speaker 3: gone overboard. But one of the most interesting bits about it,
Speaker 3: and to give a form like a visual picture, is
Speaker 3: there's along the bottom there's a string of dancing animals,
Speaker 3: like half human half animal figures dancing. They think they're
Speaker 3: danced in festivals. They're playing like bagpipe, not bagpipes, not
Speaker 3: playing that Scots. I don't think the Greeks had those.
Speaker 3: I think we can reliably say they're playing flutes and such,
Speaker 3: and then they're dancing around liars and flutes and it's
Speaker 3: it's it looks like basically it's an image of festival.
Speaker 3: So it's looking like like a sura or maybe maybe
Speaker 3: may have had like a regional like a festival, a
Speaker 3: regional festival which they had took place in like a
Speaker 3: We don't know as well, because the town is basically gone.
Speaker 3: They haven't found any evidence for it. Like we know
Speaker 3: it exists because there's some work by a few very
Speaker 3: talented scholars who have who have apparently looked at the
Speaker 3: rocks so the mountains around and be like, oh, I
Speaker 3: could see there was a town there, and I'm looking
Speaker 3: at going. I mean, I consider myself an archaeologist. I did.
Speaker 3: I had to sit in a muddy field and dig
Speaker 3: for two years, but I'm like, uh, I can't see that.
Speaker 3: But anyway, they did, and apparently there was a town
Speaker 3: and it may have happened in that town, but we
Speaker 3: can't find the town, so we don't know if it happened.
Speaker 3: It does like a festival happened based on what the
Speaker 3: fe says because of the dancing animals, which is super
Speaker 3: cool yeah, there's like some sort of like magic festival
Speaker 3: going on which we don't know about.
Speaker 2: I mean, God, Like, there's just so much stuff like
Speaker 2: that where you're like, just this thing that like maybe
Speaker 2: was a thing, but we have no proof of it.
Speaker 2: But what if it was. If it was, Like it's
Speaker 2: like half of ancient Greece, and I fucking love it.
Speaker 3: It's it's it's it's it's a mystery box. Grease is
Speaker 3: a mystery box so much.
Speaker 2: That's why it's the best. Yeah, I agree that is
Speaker 2: I love that, and I love that I could remember
Speaker 2: that piece so well, but like.
Speaker 3: A plus, like I mean, I don't want it so
Speaker 3: like like yeah, yeah, it's funny crazy.
Speaker 2: It's like if I learn a thing once about ancient Greece,
Speaker 2: it tends to stick in my head forever. Nothing that
Speaker 2: I need on a daily basis, but ancient Greece. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's sticks.
Speaker 3: That's pretty lucky though, because I learned something about Grease
Speaker 3: ten times and it doesn't stick in my head and
Speaker 3: then I make a note on it, and then I mean,
Speaker 3: and then I stopped. The only reason I remember this
Speaker 3: stuff is I've been doing it for three years now,
Speaker 3: and even then it took it took it took it
Speaker 3: to the second year for me to really be like,
Speaker 3: oh I can I can recall this at will you know?
Speaker 2: So exciting? Yeah, yeah, so okay, is there any other
Speaker 2: pieces from that area that are I mean, I don't
Speaker 2: know if anything is quite as interesting as that particular piece,
Speaker 2: but like when it comes to that like material culture
Speaker 2: of that region, not.
Speaker 3: Of a veil, but of zoomorphic type images there is
Speaker 3: from my Greek really sucks. I'm going to bok to
Speaker 3: this name. And I don't know about figure thiker Lea.
Speaker 3: I think it's it's pilgea Pilga or one of those.
Speaker 3: It's it's it's it's in the Arcadia again, but it's
Speaker 3: got They call it Black Demeter, and it's because apparently
Speaker 3: she's supposed to have the head of a goat. So
Speaker 3: very Arcadian really, because Arcadia is also a place where
Speaker 3: they were supposed to have made Pan as well, you know,
Speaker 3: the god of the wild. Gee. I just learned of
Speaker 3: Pan from Percy Jackson. That's where I first met him.
Speaker 3: But yeah, so they so it's very Arcadian. These hybrid
Speaker 3: figures are super Arcadian. You've see them all the places too.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to pretend they're completely unique, but they are.
Speaker 3: They're pretty Arcadian, you know, it's a real staple of
Speaker 3: Arcadian mythology to have hybrid things.
Speaker 2: Well in Arcadia is like the whole. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: like kind of the center of the Peloponnese, right, and
Speaker 2: then it's just very wild and like I feel like
Speaker 2: it's the place, right. It's also one of the places
Speaker 2: where Atalanta was like raised by bears in the mythology. Like,
Speaker 2: it's just one of those places that it doesn't surprise
Speaker 2: me that it would be sort of the most heavily
Speaker 2: associated with animals and wildlife and all of that stuff.
Speaker 3: I mean, Zeus was also supposed to be raised like him,
Speaker 3: But of course the Cretans would have something to say
Speaker 3: about that, because like handful of yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah exactly,
Speaker 3: and everyone else, everyone else. He's clayed that Zeus was
Speaker 3: born in the house somewhere, like Zeus was born here,
Speaker 3: he's our patriot. Gods.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's like five mountains that say that that's where
Speaker 2: Zeus was raised, And I like, to be fair.
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe Zeus was just a very big child and
Speaker 3: he covered all these mountains. Yeah, bits of him, or
Speaker 3: or maybe Zeus had like four twin brothers and then
Speaker 3: like you know, twins at that point, four identical brothers.
Speaker 3: Then maybe he ate them all like Chronos. I don't know,
Speaker 3: who knows. It's probably more just the Greeks, the Greeks
Speaker 3: being the Greeks, which, frank you, we like this, We're
Speaker 3: going to take it and put it in our culture.
Speaker 3: Does that make sense? Doesn't have to, We don't care.
Speaker 2: You know, like enter Heracles, who went literally everywhere and
Speaker 2: did things in every different city because every one wanted
Speaker 2: a piece of him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I will literally and he had so many kids
Speaker 3: because of all the women and men wanted to a
Speaker 3: piece of him.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, you just had to be everywhere.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I will say. I would say a last bit
Speaker 3: about our kaide. Yeah, this is this is me basically
Speaker 3: plugging the research that I'm doing and what I think
Speaker 3: is interesting. So I think my pet theory. I think
Speaker 3: some others share bits and pieces of this, but I
Speaker 3: think I think this is relatively unique to me as
Speaker 3: much as it can be, and stuff like this where
Speaker 3: everyone's done it everything. So basically it's the idea that
Speaker 3: this like a sur of Colt group basically was created
Speaker 3: by this there's two interpretations when it was created by Megalopolis.
Speaker 3: That's the boring one. I don't like that. I like
Speaker 3: the one that like serr Cras stick because it's it's
Speaker 3: more unplucky, underdog style. It's the idea that Megalopolis is
Speaker 3: basically taking over all these communities and they let like
Speaker 3: a surah stalelife. Great. But it seems that like Sir
Speaker 3: may have commissioned this ards called Damathon to come along
Speaker 3: about when is it again, I think it's one hundred
Speaker 3: and ninety eight BC or like two fifty it's it's
Speaker 3: about it's about like second to first century. He comes along, right,
Speaker 3: and he builds this statue for them, and I'm thinking
Speaker 3: they used it to try and retain like autonomies in
Speaker 3: their identity. So they're like, Okay, we're still a life.
Speaker 3: That's great. If we collect all these mythologies, you know,
Speaker 3: we collect these mythologies and all the regional places, not
Speaker 3: even could increase our own status, we could also give
Speaker 3: ourselves like a new, fresh, powerful identity to combat the
Speaker 3: kind of the pull of Megalopolis, the controlling influence of Megalopolis.
Speaker 3: And it's kind of how they established autonomy in the
Speaker 3: region by taking this statue, you know, click to all
Speaker 3: the myths in the material culture, so using it to
Speaker 3: using it basically as like a sort of mini Bible almost,
Speaker 3: you know, to like have all these plate these myths
Speaker 3: in one place and then then capitalize on that to
Speaker 3: to basically stay alive against Mechaopolis, which is I think
Speaker 3: is a fascinate if it's if it is true, which
Speaker 3: we would never know unless a new source comes out
Speaker 3: with some guy Goods who we created the statue because
Speaker 3: we want to do, which won't ever happen. But it's true.
Speaker 3: I imagine every day I imagine that I'm what he
Speaker 3: finds it so I get to take credit. But it's
Speaker 3: it's fascinating. It's really great dabasis plucky underdog trying to
Speaker 3: survive against the lure of this really powerful city, and
Speaker 3: they're using mythology to do it. That's how they get
Speaker 3: their significant power identity. It's how they survive. And that's
Speaker 3: that's fucking cool. It's terrific.
Speaker 2: Well and Okay, so I also I really don't have
Speaker 2: a good grasp on Greek history after the Classical period
Speaker 2: because I've just focused all of my interests on archaic
Speaker 2: and classical. But it's interesting to me that all of
Speaker 2: this was happening so late too, because I don't know.
Speaker 2: I always just imagine the Hellenistic period as like just
Speaker 2: all these kind of big powers across the whole of
Speaker 2: the Greek world taking control, versus having this idea of
Speaker 2: like a city in Arcadia trying to take control of
Speaker 2: like the rest of Arcadia. But I don't know anything
Speaker 2: what was happening with the Peloponnese at that time. But
Speaker 2: is it like somewhat unique or like what was the
Speaker 2: deal there?
Speaker 3: You know, it's not really unique, catch because as when
Speaker 3: we go into Crete, you're about to hear exactly the
Speaker 3: same sort of story, but it's no. Basically, Alexander the
Speaker 3: Great dies obviously, and then everyone goes goes insane trying
Speaker 3: to take a rese empire. Yeah, because why can't we
Speaker 3: all just be friends and be like, you can take
Speaker 3: that bit, and you can take that bit. Oh well,
Speaker 3: but you know, so you get all these these Hellenistic
Speaker 3: kings that pop up instead because Alexander's given them the
Speaker 3: model for k shit. That's a good well, it's a
Speaker 3: good idea for one person, not for most people and
Speaker 3: then basically get expanded cities over the place. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's it's it's more complicated than that. I can't remember
Speaker 3: off the top of my head, and some Hellenistic expert
Speaker 3: on this is going to come along as I'm an idiot,
Speaker 3: but yeah, loads of kings, loads of expansion. Basically, it's
Speaker 3: like the Greek world. It's like it's again like a
Speaker 3: completely it's again a glass and like thrown on the ground,
Speaker 3: it shatters. It's all of like the Greek world just
Speaker 3: goes into pieces and everyone starts fighting for themselves. So
Speaker 3: this idea of megalopolis taking over and then a city
Speaker 3: trying to in my interpretation, we're trying to rebel against
Speaker 3: it is it isn't actually a typical for this period, really,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. I can't think of exact examples,
Speaker 3: but no, this you probably get to see more of
Speaker 3: it if you did, if you did your research.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I've only I've had people want to talk
Speaker 2: about Hellenistic period or maybe just one, but it was
Speaker 2: more so but like the kingdoms in the East and
Speaker 2: everything too. So I just realized I have like no
Speaker 2: grasp on what was actually happening on like the Greek
Speaker 2: mainland during the Hellenistic period, which is kind of sad.
Speaker 2: But I just I mean, I like the Classical but
Speaker 2: then I get people on to talk about Hellenistic and
Speaker 2: then that's interesting too.
Speaker 3: Hey, that's fine. I mean, to be honest, before, I
Speaker 3: still have done this out for you. I like the
Speaker 3: Classical two as well. And then I was I remember
Speaker 3: I got told don't do the classic eafone does it
Speaker 3: do the Hellenistics. I was like, I was like, okay, fine,
Speaker 3: I'll do the Hellenistic and I was like, wait a second,
Speaker 3: this is really interesting doing this.
Speaker 2: But it's interesting because yeah, I mean, Classical is very
Speaker 2: sort of like quintessential. It's like what you think of
Speaker 2: when you imagine.
Speaker 3: It's the Classical is the Classic period.
Speaker 2: Of three exactly? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I love learning more,
Speaker 2: but like Arcadia too kind of just like goes under
Speaker 2: the radar, you know, it does, especially like when you
Speaker 2: like the Classical period, because it's just sort of there.
Speaker 2: But I did learn, I mean, when I was covering
Speaker 2: Sparta recently, it was interesting to learn how much Arcadia
Speaker 2: kind of really kept itself sort of separate from the
Speaker 2: whole mythology of the rest of the Peloponnese, who were
Speaker 2: all like, you know, we're Dorians, whereas the Arcadians were like, no,
Speaker 2: we are Arcadian, Like we have been here since?
Speaker 3: Is it?
Speaker 2: Like they say they've been there since like before the
Speaker 2: moon or something cool like.
Speaker 3: They do well they do it says like like a sir,
Speaker 3: is the oldest city in existence, which amazing, you know,
Speaker 3: probably not to have a big p, but it's probably
Speaker 3: not true, like the oldest city of all time. You know,
Speaker 3: I probably not, but actually there is awkwuds questionence that
Speaker 3: they were around prehistoric times. Oh cool, really, so actually
Speaker 3: he probably wasn't entirely wrong. They were probably really old.
Speaker 3: The oldest city's maybe a little bit of a stretch.
Speaker 3: But he got excited, you know, you know hear me
Speaker 3: just gets excited. He goes around, right, So this.
Speaker 2: Stuff that I like the idea of a guy from
Speaker 2: like first century is it around that for century Cee
Speaker 2: being like, yeah, I know, what's the oldest Like they've
Speaker 2: been around two thousand years so they're the oldest city ever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I imagine, see I was, I was when
Speaker 3: I have a picture for saying this. I always imagine
Speaker 3: he goes around he's talked to the low course and
Speaker 3: he has some old guys are actually oldest? Ship yeah,
Speaker 3: and he's like, oh really and writes it down diligently,
Speaker 3: and it's like, yep, come on, man, that guy's drunk
Speaker 3: for saying you can't trust him.
Speaker 2: You know, also like, dude, there can only be one
Speaker 2: if you're saying it's actually the oldest. Where I can
Speaker 2: imagine him being like these guys say they're the oldest,
Speaker 2: and these guys say they're the oldest, and just like.
Speaker 3: Who's correct? And he's like, I don't care to write
Speaker 3: both of them down.
Speaker 2: As just exactly. I also do have to focus on
Speaker 2: you calling him big P. So thank you for yes
Speaker 2: showing that upon me.
Speaker 3: I had to to be fair because I've realized the
Speaker 3: more and more work I do in this, the more
Speaker 3: I realized I completely reliant. PA, saynya, so I'm going
Speaker 3: you're not you know you can you can deal with
Speaker 3: the scholarly. Oh what we caught he's not blah blah reliable,
Speaker 3: but now you know what, he gave us a lot
Speaker 3: of good stuff, so you know, yes, yeah, big Pe.
Speaker 3: He deserves his nickname.
Speaker 2: He absolutely does. I did not know nearly enough about him.
Speaker 2: I swear I've only really been like learning about him
Speaker 2: for the past less than a year because I just
Speaker 2: happened to have had a bunch of guests on like unintentionally,
Speaker 2: who are just super into Pustaneus, and now I'm just
Speaker 2: kind of obsessed with him broadly. But I recently learned,
Speaker 2: and I think it'll be fine and it'll air before
Speaker 2: this episode. I'm just thinking about my timeline. But like,
Speaker 2: I recently learned that we didn't even know his name
Speaker 2: until like so many hundreds of years later, and like,
Speaker 2: like that's fascinating. He just kind of visits enigma, but
Speaker 2: turns out he's so helpful.
Speaker 3: No, I know, that is the amazing. And to be
Speaker 3: honest with you, I won't lie. I'm not going to
Speaker 3: pretend I know. I think I don't know as much
Speaker 3: part pasanias as I should, so I'm going to rely
Speaker 3: on what the other people and you know, so, yes,
Speaker 3: I'm sure we did. I didn't. I didn't actually know.
Speaker 3: We didn't know his name actually very much. I looked
Speaker 3: at his work and not as his history. But wow, yeah, okay,
Speaker 3: that's interesting.
Speaker 2: I know I had no idea, so yeah, I had
Speaker 2: a guest on to talk about like Greece during the
Speaker 2: Roman period, and so he kind of went more into
Speaker 2: detail on Castaneus and like, yeah, it's really wild how
Speaker 2: much he sort of was like not a helpful source
Speaker 2: or not like utilized as a source until like maybe
Speaker 2: only like three hundred years ago, and just sort of
Speaker 2: was super unknown. And then we come along and we're like, wait,
Speaker 2: this is actually so helpful because like turns out this
Speaker 2: guy just walked around, asked questions and wrote them down.
Speaker 2: And how fucking cool is that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, to be fair, I need to I need
Speaker 3: to say one thing about Roman's the jolly Cumlates, I
Speaker 3: believe is what I've got my supervisor. That's where he
Speaker 3: cooled to me. He said, he mocked it to himself
Speaker 3: with a jolly Cumlates. I always remember that. So that
Speaker 3: was quite funny. But I always imagine, like when I
Speaker 3: think about these old scholars, you know, right to historians,
Speaker 3: and I always I love the idea that personas may
Speaker 3: have been dodging around doing this thing, and everyone's like,
Speaker 3: we don't care, Personius, who gives a crap, you know whatever,
Speaker 3: And then and then us later and like he is
Speaker 3: a godsend because he's like the only one to survive.
Speaker 3: So he's the only work we've got, so we're like,
Speaker 3: he's amazing. Whereas obviously I don't know if there was
Speaker 3: like a geographical community and everyone was like spitching on
Speaker 3: his work, how personius he said that sityous the oldest
Speaker 3: one and that one was and he has no idea
Speaker 3: he was talking about. And there's like some great guy
Speaker 3: called like Derek the Greek and he's got like a
Speaker 3: really beautiful, like really well researched piece of work, but
Speaker 3: obvious we've lost it, so we've just got like crappy personias,
Speaker 3: you know. And then I'm not to haven't got a
Speaker 3: big p but you know what I mean, Like I
Speaker 3: just I just think it's funny that he may he
Speaker 3: may literally be the we don't know, but he may
Speaker 3: be the dregs of you know, ancient historians. But he's
Speaker 3: the only one we've got, so we're like, he is amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's the case with so many cool
Speaker 2: sources like that, where it's like we really we I
Speaker 2: don't necessarily know the deal, but it's like he's what
Speaker 2: we've got. We've got to love him, like Postanius is
Speaker 2: so interesting and I just love him. But I do
Speaker 2: think what you're saying about like him maybe being I
Speaker 2: don't even know, like I'm trying to remember what this guest,
Speaker 2: but there was like something where he was kind of
Speaker 2: seen like that. I think for like a really long time,
Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember what this guest told me.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I don't know this. I would love to
Speaker 3: know this because this would just be hilarious to me.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, the episode will come out fairly soon, I think,
Speaker 2: or in a little while, I don't know, but like, yeah,
Speaker 2: Dan Stewart is the one who told me this, and
Speaker 2: it's like this the Roman period episode that'll be coming out.
Speaker 2: But it's just, yeah, it was really fascinating hearing kind
Speaker 2: of about what Pausanius was sort of viewed as or
Speaker 2: how he was understood in the ancient world, which is
Speaker 2: that I think he got like very little respect or
Speaker 2: appreciation in the ancient world. I know, And like, meanwhile, yeah,
Speaker 2: we come in and it's like, no, it's actually incredibly
Speaker 2: helpful to have somebody who went around and like described
Speaker 2: the things he saw because they're gone.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so amazing, I know, I do wonder like
Speaker 3: without get us two topics, I don't want to go
Speaker 3: for Greeks, but like I do wonder about if our
Speaker 3: entire society was eviscerated by a new Tomorrow and we
Speaker 3: all die, we kind of got Greek affised, where you
Speaker 3: find stragglers in the ground and you're like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: this was I do wonder what would survive enough to
Speaker 3: give people an idea of the world, Like, you know what,
Speaker 3: I don't know if Big Ben got destroy to people
Speaker 3: like there was once a big tower and they're like
Speaker 3: what you know what I mean? I want to where
Speaker 3: they would get that evidence from nowadays?
Speaker 2: You know if well, and we have such weird things
Speaker 2: and there's so much like time period in between that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like you just kind of find any and everything or
Speaker 2: like find a museum and then be extra confused or
Speaker 2: I don't know. Yeah, that's interesting to think about.
Speaker 3: It is.
Speaker 2: Yes, no, no, I was just a yep, yeah, tell
Speaker 2: me about gree.
Speaker 3: Tell you about cre Okay, I will start you with
Speaker 3: crete and then I will wait for question questions help
Speaker 3: focus me. So I will start with another few Cretan
Speaker 3: the Hamnistic period. Oh god, this is interesting, this is
Speaker 3: I said really unenthusiastic when I said that it is interesting.
Speaker 3: It's not, oh, create in the Hellenistics so interesting, No,
Speaker 3: it is good. Okay. So basically a lot of scholars
Speaker 3: and other people really interested with with crete in the
Speaker 3: Minoan period, which I don't give two flying rats there was.
Speaker 2: I didn't really like pretty cool back then, but fine,
Speaker 2: it is.
Speaker 3: It is cool, but like you know, it's also like, oh, well,
Speaker 3: I don't know everyone does that.
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 3: I don't crete douring the Helistic period. It's interesting because
Speaker 3: we don't have a lot of information about it. I
Speaker 3: mean we do, but we kind of, like with all
Speaker 3: these things, we do, but we don't. But the interesting
Speaker 3: thing is crete is kind of Creeks built in an
Speaker 3: aristocratic society, much more than other places in Greece are.
Speaker 3: They're a bit they're kind of like the oh I
Speaker 3: was going to use I was going to use a
Speaker 3: bad stootype. I'm not going to use that. And they're
Speaker 3: sort of like the black sheep of the Greek world,
Speaker 3: you know, in that they're different. And there's a scholar
Speaker 3: called Plybeus, a historian rather called Polybius, who says they're
Speaker 3: all what do you say, rape, rapists and murderers, which,
Speaker 3: by the way, isn't true, as you probably can guess.
Speaker 3: It's not an entire eyeland full of rapists and murderers.
Speaker 3: But Plybeus didn't really like them. But I think it's
Speaker 3: because they killed his dabt or something at some point
Speaker 3: to you had a bit of a chip on his shoulder. Polypius,
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Plybeas was he was from Mecaplas. Oh yes,
Speaker 3: he was coming back.
Speaker 2: I always think of the Athenians for stuff like that,
Speaker 2: you know, especially I.
Speaker 3: Don't blame you. They usually are, frankly, but he wasn't.
Speaker 2: He was interesting, especially when it comes to Creed. I
Speaker 2: always think about that because I'm kind of obsessed with
Speaker 2: the idea of like the whole Theseus and Minotaur just oh, yes,
Speaker 2: that's complete Athenian propaganda, which it like basically was, but
Speaker 2: I really like just want to understand it better as
Speaker 2: Athenian propaganda, because it's like, I'm sure the Manoans weren't
Speaker 2: going around and being like so, you know, every year
Speaker 2: we sacrificed all of these people to this monster we
Speaker 2: kept downstairs like.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, well, I mean you said that, but first,
Speaker 3: first of all, I'm sorry. I have to take gusure
Speaker 3: of the fact you called it a minotaura not a minotaur.
Speaker 3: I am, I know, I know, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: However, however, okay, you brought it up, so now I
Speaker 2: have to make it.
Speaker 3: Okay, here we go.
Speaker 2: I've had this argument with my friend who is also
Speaker 2: not British, but she lived there long enough that she
Speaker 2: says minotaur, and it drives me bonkers because the ancient
Speaker 2: Greek did not really have a horrid eye sound. So
Speaker 2: if one of them is going to be more accurate, it's.
Speaker 3: Minotaur linguistics time. Okay, fine, I will, I will, I
Speaker 3: will can see defeat because I don't think anyone's listened
Speaker 3: to us ark you for fifteen minutes O for a
Speaker 3: freaking minor tour minotaur. But I had to say it
Speaker 3: because it's.
Speaker 2: One of my I was but very British to say minotaur.
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm mood of that. No, you said again, the
Speaker 3: Cretans would not be kind of being like who lot
Speaker 3: loads of people who will come to crete lovely. The
Speaker 3: thing is, though on all their coinage well deeply into
Speaker 3: the Hellenistic period too as well. They have images of
Speaker 3: the labyrinth and on the colossal stones anyway, So they
Speaker 3: clearly were being like, yes, we we are the labyrinth,
Speaker 3: we are the minor tour.
Speaker 2: Sorry, yeah, but I don't I think that they kind
Speaker 2: it is, it's really questionable. But I also think it's
Speaker 2: more so that it was like that was really indicative
Speaker 2: of their whole culture versus the theseus part of you know,
Speaker 2: or they were sacrificing, Like I don't think indeed they
Speaker 2: were necessarily necessarily talking about how evil the minotaur was.
Speaker 2: They were just like, we have this labyrinth and we're cool,
Speaker 2: and we've got balls everywhere, and you know, sometimes a
Speaker 2: half ball.
Speaker 3: Man, it's fineful man.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's yeah.
Speaker 3: You know. Actually just about actually I've got I got
Speaker 3: stuff I can say about Athens, this one about their
Speaker 3: propaganda with with the idea of like, you know, God's
Speaker 3: there's so much to say. Okay, very quickly, you're probably
Speaker 3: right about that, to be fair, that they focus they
Speaker 3: focus really just from the labyrinth as far as I
Speaker 3: can tell, You're right, they're not really focused much in
Speaker 3: the grizzly sacrifices of death, because that's yeah, it's not
Speaker 3: really I mean, you know, the Greeks where the kid
Speaker 3: fer mythed it really always practice the moral as we did,
Speaker 3: you know, because you know she's going around impregnanty and everything,
Speaker 3: much of that being rape. It's not something we would
Speaker 3: stand by. But the Greeks were like, whoo zou, this
Speaker 3: is great. So obviously things are a little bit different.
Speaker 3: But no, you're probably right about that. But I will, okay,
Speaker 3: should fox and creep. But I will say one quick
Speaker 3: thing about Theseus. I read a really interesting article by
Speaker 3: a turner. I cannot remember her first name, which is terrible,
Speaker 3: but she she wrote basically about how Theseus is both
Speaker 3: the son of a Gus, the king of Attica, and Poseidon,
Speaker 3: god at the sea. But the stories, like nick, they
Speaker 3: basically the thing is blurre it. You never really know
Speaker 3: who is actual dad is because that way they can
Speaker 3: they could be like, no, we have cliped Attica because
Speaker 3: we're descended from Theseus and the Geus. But no, no, no,
Speaker 3: we can also control the sea because they just they
Speaker 3: just let this exist or like oh yeah, blurry thing.
Speaker 3: And every time you've probably got someone and being like so,
Speaker 3: which one is it, they're like, oh.
Speaker 2: That's kind of it's fine. They had sex WhatsUp woman
Speaker 2: on the same night. So it's bo that's it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you just you know. I mean, you know when
Speaker 3: you're pregnant women, if you do it quickly, both of
Speaker 3: them are buying into one. Everyone knows that genetics God, Yeah,
Speaker 3: genetics God to be fair. Actually, I mean we all
Speaker 3: talk about a god in one of these places, and
Speaker 3: maybe it's genetics can literally maybe a sperm can match
Speaker 3: onto a geuses and make a super kid.
Speaker 2: We don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I mean the guy can trust the ocean.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, could it happened?
Speaker 2: You know what?
Speaker 3: Well, I think I've just cracked the case of how
Speaker 3: these can co exist. I mean, burb God, that's the
Speaker 3: next that's the next paper coming out. I mean that
Speaker 3: sounds like yeah, okay, sign yeah, okayre I will talk
Speaker 3: about crete, Okay. So basically, crete is a bit of
Speaker 3: a hot mess during the Hellenistic and all the cities
Speaker 3: are expanding. You've heard that story before, Michaelopolis. Well, it's
Speaker 3: the same on crete. There's one cynic called here a Pitner,
Speaker 3: which is let me see, how do I describe this
Speaker 3: without having a visual reference. It's so you've got crete,
Speaker 3: you've got the middle of Crete. It's like sort of
Speaker 3: it's sort of off the middle of creek towards the east,
Speaker 3: but like southeast, very southeast, but not you know, the
Speaker 3: island kind of like thins out and then gets like
Speaker 3: a bulbous end so much it's not there. It's kind
Speaker 3: of a bit before that. It's the best describe it.
Speaker 3: People just look at Google.
Speaker 2: I mean I also I have I know the shape
Speaker 2: of the island of crete so well that I knew
Speaker 2: exactly what you're talking about. Oh my goodness, I just
Speaker 2: like think says too much about how much I stare
Speaker 2: with the map of Greece. But yeah, I get it.
Speaker 3: Good. I'm really happy, really happy. I actually described that
Speaker 3: follow So, yeah, all these cities are expanding like crazy,
Speaker 3: but at the same time as this, it's really fascinating.
Speaker 3: So basically crete is also I think creates a hot mess.
Speaker 3: It is for multiple reasons, because cities are expanding everywhere,
Speaker 3: but also mercenaries are basically cretes kind of like it
Speaker 3: needs money, right, and because of its society. Apparently an
Speaker 3: event happens. We don't know what it is, but it's
Speaker 3: called the event of the Hellenistic period. It could be
Speaker 3: an earthquake or some sort of feminis some kind, I'm
Speaker 3: not really sure, but something happened and it meant that
Speaker 3: there wasn't basically loads of jobs, because that sounds like
Speaker 3: twenty first century Britain, but there was lots of jobs
Speaker 3: on the island, and as such, Cretans had to move
Speaker 3: and emigrate. And one of the key things they got
Speaker 3: a lot of money for and a lot of good
Speaker 3: reputation for were mercenaries to help the new Hellenistic collection
Speaker 3: of kings fight wars and take land. So exports lots
Speaker 3: of its men as mercenaries off the end, and they
Speaker 3: get lots of money. And these people go flying across
Speaker 3: the Mediterranean, these Cretans, and that's like like, that's like
Speaker 3: their thing. That's how they make money by selling soldiers,
Speaker 3: not selling, they are hiring renting soldiers because they must.
Speaker 3: But it's fascinating because these mercenaries go off and then
Speaker 3: they come back they encounter new mythological stories, and then
Speaker 3: they come back with these mythological stories and they tell
Speaker 3: them to create, like, hey, did you know, so the
Speaker 3: best one is in Itanos on the very east of Crete,
Speaker 3: like sort of near the north bit of it. They
Speaker 3: come back with Egyptian stories. They're like, hey, did you
Speaker 3: know isis who? And all Cretans are like, what the
Speaker 3: hell are you talking about? But yeah, so these mercenaries
Speaker 3: bring these new myths to Crete, and then these new
Speaker 3: towns get like hybrid eyes like Egyptian, Cretin, Greek y myths, myths,
Speaker 3: which is just really cool. Yeah, it's pretty cool traveling myths.
Speaker 2: I okay, I have to bring this up because I
Speaker 2: just have to. Have you played the game Assassin's Creed Otisty.
Speaker 3: Yes, I have played that game. Yes I did finish
Speaker 3: it though because I got burnt out. I couldn't even
Speaker 3: I could explore the Greek islands. Like, stop you, I'm
Speaker 3: doing it cool. Don't cut this from the from the podcast.
Speaker 3: You'd be soft. Go back to making games like Assassins
Speaker 3: Creed to Creed one. Please don't give me another odyssey.
Speaker 2: I say that as a lot of Greece honesty is
Speaker 2: so good. Oh my god, So did you not get
Speaker 2: your Creed because everything you just described sounds like, Okay,
Speaker 2: that's exactly how Crete is in the game, like it's
Speaker 2: all about mercenaries and actually.
Speaker 3: About Look, I mean you're not let me not wrong
Speaker 3: to be fair. Before we got full CORECT to be fair,
Speaker 3: they did do their research, to be honest, Like a
Speaker 3: lot of stuff is pretty like you know, pretty pretty
Speaker 3: actually too.
Speaker 2: Fair, especially so many times.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's really good us I will give that. Like
Speaker 3: I'm not going to be it's amazing virtual tourism. I'm
Speaker 3: just a bit annoying. I'm a very old school I
Speaker 3: just like to ask screed.
Speaker 2: One's very the It's the only video game I've ever
Speaker 2: played outside of N sixty four, so I am so much.
Speaker 2: I know I've heard this. I'll try more eventually, but
Speaker 2: until then, I just keep playing Assassin's Screen honysty it's
Speaker 2: really bad. But anyway, yeah, mercenaries, I love that. That's
Speaker 2: really interesting, Like so did they have did they really
Speaker 2: like jump in on Egyptian specifically and have a lot
Speaker 2: of this kind of like hybridization that remained.
Speaker 3: So this is this is this is the really interesting
Speaker 3: thing about to basically you have these Cretans come along
Speaker 3: in certain areas like Atanos, these Greek, these Egyptian and
Speaker 3: Greek myths kind of converge and and do loads of
Speaker 3: weird hybridy stuff. But but this doesn't seem to be
Speaker 3: the case for the rest of the islands, so it
Speaker 3: seems to be quite contained. So it seems like you
Speaker 3: had Egyptian eventually Roman or Greek, you know, traveling Greek
Speaker 3: mercenaries and they kind of practice their own religions on
Speaker 3: bits of crete, you know, they didn't see They seem
Speaker 3: to have folly like penetrated the island, gone deeper into it.
Speaker 3: And I think there's multiple reasons for that, one of
Speaker 3: the most obvious ones being maybe you've got certain mercenaries
Speaker 3: living in these areas, like foreign mercenaries living in this area,
Speaker 3: so of course they practice their religions in those areas.
Speaker 3: But one of the theories I'm attached to is the
Speaker 3: reason these myths couldn't penetrate, right, these kind of new
Speaker 3: identities couldn't penetrate the island is because this this goes
Speaker 3: into so I'm gonna have to pivot for a second,
Speaker 3: but because I need to, I need to explain this
Speaker 3: to then explain that have you have you ever come
Speaker 3: across lamps on has anyone talked about like Greek lamps before?
Speaker 2: Not Greek? I know about all the Roman penis lamps
Speaker 2: is really the only thing that comes to my mind
Speaker 2: if you talk about lamps, which is sad, but where
Speaker 2: are my knowledge lives?
Speaker 3: Okay, not penis lamps? Though, my god, that sounds interesting.
Speaker 3: I must have missed that episode.
Speaker 2: Very good, it's not even an episode. Yeah, there are over.
Speaker 3: Oh oh I know, and I know penises of Pompeii.
Speaker 3: I didn't realizate wings innovator. So anyway, so labs, but no,
Speaker 3: they're not, they're not. They're not penis lamps, sadly, they're
Speaker 3: they're kind of like normal looking lamps. But they've got
Speaker 3: loads of holes some of them. We've got loads of
Speaker 3: holes over them, right, which means that if you should
Speaker 3: put a light into them, the light goes and loads
Speaker 3: of funky different ways, you know, weird and what long
Speaker 3: story short, this could basically be different ways of practicing ritual.
Speaker 3: So they had different people in different ways of describing, imagining,
Speaker 3: or understanding these lights and what they meant, like, oh,
Speaker 3: there's loads of different lights because that goes to to
Speaker 3: meet her godless of the light, and there was a
Speaker 3: version of her and crete by the way, the loads
Speaker 3: of Dierent versions. So you know, obviously these rituals were
Speaker 3: attended to these gods and godlesses. But the main thing
Speaker 3: I want to build off of that is if you
Speaker 3: and I, for example, say say we're both Egyptians, right,
Speaker 3: and we come along to Crete and we're like, yeah,
Speaker 3: we're going to spread some Egyptian religion. We go to
Speaker 3: the first town away from a Tannis when we walk
Speaker 3: out and we go to this this sanctuary, like great.
Speaker 3: We walk in and you see these people with this
Speaker 3: lamp like coming and stuff and having this like this
Speaker 3: weird these lights going everywhere. You would probably look at
Speaker 3: that and be like, what the fuck is going on?
Speaker 3: Like what is that lamp? What are they doing with it?
Speaker 3: What does it mean? You'd have no idea, would you,
Speaker 3: unless someone took the time to come up to and
Speaker 3: be like, okay, so this is the lamp. We do
Speaker 3: it to worship Demeter in a special light form. Oh
Speaker 3: you haven't heard of her light form where that's local
Speaker 3: to this area and these and all these little lights
Speaker 3: are symbolizing all the different paths she takes around her life.
Speaker 3: You're like, what, you wouldn't know that unless you're told it.
Speaker 3: And I think that maybe one of the reasons these
Speaker 3: foreign identities and myths do not penetrate the island because
Speaker 3: you come up with your myth and they kind of
Speaker 3: a rebuff you. They're like, you don't understand it. You
Speaker 3: can't engage with the topic. You can't adapt your like
Speaker 3: you know, you're like Egyptian myth to the local creature
Speaker 3: myths because you don't know the myth. You don't understand it,
Speaker 3: so you can't you can't be like, oh, okay, I
Speaker 3: get that, that's about, you know, to meet other light.
Speaker 3: Oh we have a god like that, and they do
Speaker 3: this and maybe they're the same thing. They both visited that.
Speaker 3: You know, you adapt the myth then that way build
Speaker 3: like a collective identity. Yeah, I think they could do that.
Speaker 3: They had no idea what was going on, and the
Speaker 3: Cretans kind of pushed them away deliberately because of it.
Speaker 3: You know, they made sure to gatekeep gate gate keep basically,
Speaker 3: which yeah, which the Cretans would I definitely think they
Speaker 3: would have done because they were quite. They were quite.
Speaker 3: They weren't in insulent people as wrong. So there's loads
Speaker 3: of trading me found, so I'm not trying to say that,
Speaker 3: but they were quite conservative in their customs. It makes
Speaker 3: sense they wouldn't be like, you know, hello, come on, welcome.
Speaker 3: You know, everybody and their mum to create. So yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's basically see this idea of myths. So I want
Speaker 3: to talk about like myths, mythical stories. I did say
Speaker 3: myth works, but yeah, these myths can't really penetrate his
Speaker 3: island because the people carrying the myths do not understand
Speaker 3: what's going on, so they can't attach the myths.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so okay, now I want to know more though
Speaker 2: about this demeter of like the light is there more
Speaker 2: you can say whatever? Or she just totally naffling, because
Speaker 2: that would make sense.
Speaker 3: Sadly, yes, sad that's really annoyed at she that I
Speaker 3: can't tell you much more about her, because I and
Speaker 3: that's really disappointing. You have to cut this certain like
Speaker 3: an you are to. Yeah, I can't tell much more
Speaker 3: about her because I've basically have not done my research
Speaker 3: on her yet. You know, I've tried. I've tried as well.
Speaker 3: I got really interested, just like you. Yeah, and I
Speaker 3: and the books were I think they're buried in German
Speaker 3: or something, and I was like, oh goodness, gracious me,
Speaker 3: So well it's a story for another day.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's why I phrased it like that because
Speaker 2: it sounds like one where it would be really difficult
Speaker 2: because I've never even heard of her, so it can't
Speaker 2: be something that you can easily learn more about.
Speaker 3: Weird. Oh yeah, it's weird. It's very weird. But she Yeah,
Speaker 3: but she is a certain and she is I think
Speaker 3: she could like to meet a light Bringer. She's like
Speaker 3: she sounds kind of like a Yeah, she sounds like
Speaker 3: a kind of like don't some sort of like metal
Speaker 3: band player light Bringer. It's a biblical figure. I love it.
Speaker 3: I don't know much more about it.
Speaker 2: Sounds cool.
Speaker 3: It does sound cool, doesn't it. Yah, Yeah, sounds pretty cool. Okay,
Speaker 3: I've got other stuff and tell you about as well,
Speaker 3: just because I went off of foreign mercenaries randomly for
Speaker 3: the wrong reason. But so you've got the foreign mercenaries,
Speaker 3: and I said, here a pit in other cities. We
Speaker 3: are expanding at this point. Well, you've also got okay,
Speaker 3: so you've got to hear a Pitner. So let's take
Speaker 3: here a Pittner as a good example. They're expanding and
Speaker 3: as such, they're taking over other communities, so you know,
Speaker 3: like get away. And one of the things they do
Speaker 3: do is they control the myth and religion of these towns.
Speaker 3: So there's evidence of them having destroyed cults around towns.
Speaker 3: And at this place called a Leros, they actually like
Speaker 3: put up their rules on the sanctuary temple, which you
Speaker 3: know is a big it's like a big not no no,
Speaker 3: but that's a big ruh. They're making a message here
Speaker 3: because if you know, on the big sanctuary which is
Speaker 3: communa and everyone goes to and is kind of authorized
Speaker 3: by the god of the area, they've put their rules
Speaker 3: on it. It's kind of showing that gods are authorizing
Speaker 3: their rules, like you know, they're really cementing their opinions
Speaker 3: and they're like, you know, things onto poor a Leris.
Speaker 3: So basically we know, sorry, we don't know. Is maybe
Speaker 3: told it suggested that these these smaller communities are losing
Speaker 3: their autonomy. You know, they're losing their identities, myths there,
Speaker 3: autonomies that all being stripped away from them. That sucks.
Speaker 3: So you know what they do instead to retain autonomy
Speaker 3: is they fullback in this thing called pastoral mythologies. Yeah,
Speaker 3: they're really cool, so I get really excited. So pastoral
Speaker 3: mythologies are like pan nymphs and you know, wood dry.
Speaker 3: It's all that type of stuff, you know, like landscape
Speaker 3: type gods and goddesses, the.
Speaker 2: Thing you think of for arcadia, not necessarily creep yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no exactly, but massively on crete. They it looks
Speaker 3: like they start to fall back on these and we
Speaker 3: see so much one thing. There's there's a goddess called
Speaker 3: dick Tenia Bel said it correctly. She's a goddess of nets.
Speaker 3: Have you heard of her before?
Speaker 2: No, but the idea of a goddess of nets makes
Speaker 2: me so happy.
Speaker 3: No, it's cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a goddess of nets like fishing nets mostly, or.
Speaker 3: Like fishing nets fishing they need the fishing the fishing
Speaker 3: net goddess anyway. But during the hemnesty period she starts
Speaker 3: as godss of and then she transforms throughout the Hellenistic
Speaker 3: period into like a goddess of the hunt, like Artemis.
Speaker 3: She takes she like a bone and arrow and hunting dogs.
Speaker 3: And the reason that may have happened is because the
Speaker 3: Cretans are transforming her into something they need, which is
Speaker 3: a pastoral goddess, someone who's connected to the landscape. So
Speaker 3: that's a really fascinating So you see this changing in
Speaker 3: real time, really rapidly too, like over like one hundred
Speaker 3: years or so. That's rapid.
Speaker 2: Well. Create has got to be one of the few
Speaker 2: islands that can kind of get away with such pastoral
Speaker 2: myths too, because it's so much bigger than all the
Speaker 2: other ones, Like I feel like the rest don't have
Speaker 2: that kind of landscape that would sort of lend itself
Speaker 2: like obviously they're big enough, but Creed is so enormous.
Speaker 3: It is, yeah, absolutely, and it's so bloody, rocky and
Speaker 3: mountainous when I want to. I tried to drive up
Speaker 3: a hill on the car broke down and I had
Speaker 3: to splutter the car up. I think it'll be forty
Speaker 3: minutes agot this hill on the splushing car.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Create is wild, the Cretan landscape, Like, I will
Speaker 2: never get over it. I don't think I like love
Speaker 2: anything more. I went there a couple of years ago
Speaker 2: with some friends and we rented a convertible and drove
Speaker 2: down to Pelleopolis, which is is that what it's called. Yeah,
Speaker 2: there's so many that are like anyway, but it's it's
Speaker 2: one like really old and it's like you have to
Speaker 2: drive all the way through the mountains and then there's
Speaker 2: this beach that you have to drive through, like literally
Speaker 2: not a road, just like this rocky kind of landscape
Speaker 2: directly next to the water. Were like, how are we
Speaker 2: in this car? This is not a good idea. We're
Speaker 2: going to destroy this thing, Like, oh my god, but
Speaker 2: cretin landscape is wild, like it's just unlike anything else.
Speaker 2: I'm obsessed with it, So thank you for bringing that.
Speaker 3: So basically you've got all these So you've got these
Speaker 3: goddesses turn into pastoral into pastoral gods, right, and goddess
Speaker 3: is right, So they're transforming in kind of shape. We
Speaker 3: have some lovely material culture. One of them is a
Speaker 3: clay a clay mold relief of Pan's face like you're
Speaker 3: put on pot. So clearly they're making lots of these
Speaker 3: cause they've got they've got a mold for it that
Speaker 3: they just can stamp and fill, and you stamp and fill.
Speaker 3: So apparently people are loving the pastoral myths. They're loving
Speaker 3: the Pan. You know, this is real good at this point.
Speaker 3: So the question, of course you may be thinking, or
Speaker 3: you may not, but I'm thinking, is why, like why
Speaker 3: did they start loving pastoral myths so much? Because there's
Speaker 3: definitely an increase in it. Yeah, oh and sidecast as well.
Speaker 3: In the Greek anthology, all the Cretan names were not
Speaker 3: all them. Some of the Cretan names seem to have
Speaker 3: Ucolic origins. They've got like little Bucolic kind of entomologies origins.
Speaker 3: It's it's really weird. The Cretans, the creatains love the landscape.
Speaker 3: They love pastoralism in this period.
Speaker 2: I mean I can see it. I'm like, I know,
Speaker 2: I can just picture Cretans landscape and I'm just yeah, picture.
Speaker 3: The son and the rolling pills and the hidden police officers.
Speaker 3: Picture all event is fantastic. You know, it's it's really good.
Speaker 3: So you have to ask you why, so why why
Speaker 3: are they why they care so much pastoralism now? And
Speaker 3: there's there's multiple reasons, could be multiple reasons. Three of
Speaker 3: them that I've identified. One the event And I say,
Speaker 3: so the event, this this honomist thing I do not
Speaker 3: know about, and no one seems to not even I
Speaker 3: always say his name wrong, Anotus. He's he's a Greek
Speaker 3: scholar and he I don't think he knows and he's
Speaker 3: like the super foremost dex But as far as I
Speaker 3: can tell on all this stuff, So you know, he's like,
Speaker 3: I don't really know actually, and you speculate it, so
Speaker 3: we don't know what it is unless I'm someone's going
Speaker 3: to send me an article tomorrow and I'll find out
Speaker 3: that I'm wrong. But anyway, the event, so it could
Speaker 3: be an earthquake of a famine, but mainly it probably
Speaker 3: it's probably spurred them to practice stuff like transmits to
Speaker 3: the movement of cattle and stuff like that more frequently
Speaker 3: because they needed to for for food survival resources that
Speaker 3: that type of thing. So that may have been why.
Speaker 3: Because you know, if animal husbandry and such becomes so
Speaker 3: important to the society, more important than ever was before,
Speaker 3: you know, mythology is going to reflect that, because they're
Speaker 3: going to be worshiping pastoral gods to make sure the
Speaker 3: cattles alive, you know, please pan, don't kill them, you know,
Speaker 3: type of thing. So you know, it makes sense why
Speaker 3: they may be moving towards this and why tenure may
Speaker 3: be becoming like a huntress who looks after their cattle
Speaker 3: or helps them to hunt them. You know, you can
Speaker 3: sort of see why these myths transformed to match what
Speaker 3: the societies need at the time. M M. Because that
Speaker 3: makes sense. The other one the one I like most.
Speaker 3: I've always got my own pet theory the one I like,
Speaker 3: And it always comes back to being a plucky underdog,
Speaker 3: which is going to maybe a problem match. Maybe move
Speaker 3: away from that, because everything ends up, everything ends up
Speaker 3: being rocky in the movie basically, but Greek, so you've
Speaker 3: got you had to hear a pit and taken over
Speaker 3: these communities, right. I like to think that they're so
Speaker 3: that gods are stripped off them. You're done, you get
Speaker 3: rid of them. So they're like, crap, how are we
Speaker 3: going to have an identity? How are we gonna have
Speaker 3: myths that we can believe in and attach ourselves to
Speaker 3: and you know, bond with and clate around and blah
Speaker 3: blah blah. I'm thinking they were like, Okay, you know what,
Speaker 3: they can't take the mountain. They can't take the mountains,
Speaker 3: and they can change choosing the caves, but they can't
Speaker 3: take the rivers and the landscapes. So I think they
Speaker 3: manufact well they've already manufactured, but they start to put
Speaker 3: more emphasis on these pastoral myths because that's something these
Speaker 3: cities can't take away from. They're so general, they're so
Speaker 3: mixed there, so everyone believes in them that if you
Speaker 3: attach yourself to them, that's not going to be ripped
Speaker 3: from you or taken from you likely, and therefore you
Speaker 3: can create that and you can kind of create an
Speaker 3: identity around that myth, you know, that can become your
Speaker 3: new sense of definition, a new sense of self. And
Speaker 3: I think that's why they start to one of the
Speaker 3: reasons that it's probably all of them simultaneously, but that
Speaker 3: may be one of the reasons these myths become more
Speaker 3: popular because they're now their new way of expressing their
Speaker 3: own sense of identity and their own autonomy, irregardless of
Speaker 3: the massive evil city. We're just taking them over and
Speaker 3: you know, kind of forced their here opinion for example,
Speaker 3: you know, views upon them.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. So yes, it's really interesting. Yeah, I love
Speaker 2: the Net goddess becoming a hunt goddess. That's so interesting
Speaker 2: and weird and I'll never get over that there's a
Speaker 2: Net goddess. So thank you. I'm going to text it's
Speaker 2: really got.
Speaker 3: You did it to be fair, it's really I was going, oh,
Speaker 3: they got they did this for You're like God.
Speaker 2: I mean, like the identity fascinating generally, but still can't
Speaker 2: get over the net goddess. I love learning about such
Speaker 2: specific and bizarre Yeah. I mean, they just had gods
Speaker 2: and goddesses for everything, and I never think about nets.
Speaker 2: That's just a new one. I don't know. It's really
Speaker 2: holding onto me. Yeah, I absolutely love that. And I
Speaker 2: also am really fascinated by tier. So I want to
Speaker 2: make sure that we talk about tear. Yeah. Is there
Speaker 2: more about crete though, Like I don't want to cut
Speaker 2: you off on cree.
Speaker 3: No, that's that's that's that's all I got my hosts.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I could, I've got friends, but
Speaker 3: we're not going to it. I've said, you know about
Speaker 3: how Smith now to try and survive maybe, yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, and it is interesting that, like the pastoral stuff
Speaker 2: does seem like the one yeah, think that they can't
Speaker 2: take away because it's like it's also like not only
Speaker 2: is it clearly tied to the landscape and everything so necessarily,
Speaker 2: but it is also like broader, right, like you're saying,
Speaker 2: like I mean, and even just the way you can
Speaker 2: connect it to our Katie, it's like it's a very
Speaker 2: sort of broadly Greek concept and these stories so they
Speaker 2: feel a bit more yeah, harder to wrench away.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Well, I think that's one of them anyway,
Speaker 3: or it could have been the largest cities using it
Speaker 3: to help connect them with the smaller communities, but who knows,
Speaker 3: don't know. Speculation, it's fun, speculation, interpretation. Yes, tire teer
Speaker 3: te see you're probably it's probably tear, and I call
Speaker 3: it tire and I don't know what it is. I
Speaker 3: said tie for so long now and no one's corrected me.
Speaker 3: I have to assume that. I mean, someone would have
Speaker 3: taken pity on me by now.
Speaker 2: Honestly, like any of these pronunciations though, like they're always
Speaker 2: going to be an accent and English and all these
Speaker 2: different things, like you know.
Speaker 3: It is, I'm gonna I'm going to switch between and
Speaker 3: confuse everybody.
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna be like, yeah, I'm going to have here.
Speaker 2: But so we'll just we're talking about the city and
Speaker 2: Phoenicia people. That's what matters.
Speaker 3: Yes we are. It's spelt it is literally spelt tire,
Speaker 3: like if you put a tire in your car, it's spelled.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's along the British way of spelling tire.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, fair enough. So So the Phoenicians, they're interesting,
Speaker 3: they're fun, lots of people obviously not you or your listeners,
Speaker 3: I'm sure, but other people are confusing for Greeks many times,
Speaker 3: you know, they get a bit messed up, but they're not.
Speaker 3: Their name was Phonic or Phonics or Phoenix even but
Speaker 3: the Greeks cooling, which I thought was really cool. If
Speaker 3: they were actually called Phoenix, that's such a cool name
Speaker 3: to names and.
Speaker 2: People, well, they have a like, they have a prince
Speaker 2: named Phoenix. So the background on this, uh is that
Speaker 2: I have a really deep and long standing and like
Speaker 2: longer than anything else, of my love of Greek mythology,
Speaker 2: obsession with Cadmus, which therefore lends itself to an obsession
Speaker 2: with Phoenicia, and like, I really don't know enough about
Speaker 2: actual historical Phoenicia or even like mythology beyond the very
Speaker 2: Greek Cadmus, but I am completely obsessed with Cadmus and
Speaker 2: his brother is named Phoenix, which is Greek mythology but
Speaker 2: based in Phoenicia and where we get a lot of
Speaker 2: this stuff and it's.
Speaker 3: Not so cool. I love Cadmus. I think he's he
Speaker 3: was a real g He was very cool. Absolutely, I
Speaker 3: don't think, I don't think. I don't think he even
Speaker 3: did anything that doulty if I'm trying to remember my cat,
Speaker 3: miss think.
Speaker 2: That's the way I love him do anything, which he
Speaker 2: is pretty.
Speaker 3: Chill, exactly Greek Phoenician here right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: I also my little and I will you talk about
Speaker 2: Hellenistic tier.
Speaker 3: But like.
Speaker 2: My obsession with Cadmus is that I think that there
Speaker 2: absolutely has to be a missing like epic or story
Speaker 2: that explained more about him, because he is incredibly unique one.
Speaker 2: Yet he's a hero who did not really assault anybody.
Speaker 3: Hey, it's right to get epic because the Greeks they're like,
Speaker 3: there's no rape, pity, screw him, he's.
Speaker 2: Boring, he's boring. No, but he's like he's that he's Phoenician.
Speaker 2: But also like they clearly they make him Greek. They
Speaker 2: have him bring the Phoenician alphabet to Greece to explain
Speaker 2: how Greek alphabet came to be. They have him marry
Speaker 2: a literal goddess, and then she is also really she's
Speaker 2: the only hero, the only hero marries a goddess. And
Speaker 2: not only is she just she's not just like any
Speaker 2: old goddess. She's literally just the daughter of Aphrodity and
Speaker 2: aries like two Olympians and she doesn't do any goddess things.
Speaker 2: She just lives with Cadmus forever. And then they have
Speaker 2: like this incredibly famous dynasty of children, and yeah, I
Speaker 2: just think there has to be more there because we
Speaker 2: have so little sourcing on them. But like they're.
Speaker 3: I would agree, And to be fair, you look at
Speaker 3: Phoenician coinage, they're already pushing forward the story if you
Speaker 3: ripe her and all the stuff that leads to I'm
Speaker 3: quite significantly, so why I would agree with you there?
Speaker 3: I would actually, you know what, I wouldn't just be
Speaker 3: willing to very certainly say there must have been something
Speaker 3: pretty big, but we've just it's just been lost because yeah,
Speaker 3: it's way too cool. But imagine how prett of those
Speaker 3: children were Cadineus and Aphrodite, like Aphrodite descended kids daughter,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like they must be some
Speaker 3: good looking kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you know, like she kids, they're all just
Speaker 2: so unique. Well and then also their kids are like
Speaker 2: you know, people like Semile who then goes on to
Speaker 2: become the mother of Dionysus. Like they're just all wild,
Speaker 2: the whole family. I can talk about that, I will
Speaker 2: try not to.
Speaker 3: No, that's fine, that's they're really they're really god damn cool. Cool.
Speaker 3: They're really cool, not really cool. I would I would
Speaker 3: talk about Ty. I would try too. I was trying.
Speaker 3: I feel like I've been a bit to your story,
Speaker 3: so I'll try to keep it a bit more. Mythy's
Speaker 3: not interesting, don't worry. Okay, goold. Okay, so let me think. Okay, So,
Speaker 3: long story short, Alexander Diesie have the diet or she was,
Speaker 3: and you have Ptolemy and Solucid. Anyway, long story short, Basically,
Speaker 3: it seems that they take turns basically making Tire a tear.
Speaker 3: They're punching back the poor city. Like I read from
Speaker 3: this this one's gonna a grade just says it's almost
Speaker 3: like they had it out for Tier Tire because like
Speaker 3: it gets so beaten up and the diot wars and
Speaker 3: it keeps trying to be like no, we'll defend and
Speaker 3: rebel against you, and they're like, nah, can't back here,
Speaker 3: lose you, and they just like punch it together. It's
Speaker 3: like I'm just like, please leave it the lode. It's
Speaker 3: like that. That's was that Simpsons me with the Stumpioness
Speaker 3: already did. It's like that for Tier tire, like, please
Speaker 3: stop it. The city's already been raised multiple times.
Speaker 2: So I feel I know, and you think about that,
Speaker 2: and then the fact that they, like Carthage was a
Speaker 2: Phoenician like from like a colony from originally Tier and
Speaker 2: then what happened to them, like, my god, these poor
Speaker 2: Phoenician people.
Speaker 3: I know, it's not it's not going it's not going
Speaker 3: well for them. And and honestly, looking at modern day too,
Speaker 3: it's still weialism. That city, that city in a past
Speaker 3: life must have done something to piss someone off. Because
Speaker 3: poor thing, so anyway, tear tire, so it gets beaten up,
Speaker 3: and there is something that say, like it's cultural heritage
Speaker 3: gets a viscerated. I don't I think that's a bit
Speaker 3: too strong. I don't think it gets viscerated, but it
Speaker 3: probably got. All their records are destroyed and multiple attacks
Speaker 3: in the city, stuff like that. I can believe that,
Speaker 3: you know, they their identity and that their sense of
Speaker 3: self was a little bit and their myths were a
Speaker 3: little bit like frazzled. After that, I can certainly believe
Speaker 3: that after being beaten up so many times. But then
Speaker 3: basically get this really interesting mix between mel Cart and Heracles,
Speaker 3: and that's that I'm going to talk about the myth bit.
Speaker 3: So first thing, loads of people think that do you know,
Speaker 3: actually should pro explain who these people? I mean, everyone
Speaker 3: knows Heracles, so I'm going to assume that that bloody
Speaker 3: losories everywhere everyone knows him. But mel Car mel Cart's
Speaker 3: basically he's a local. He seems to be a relatively
Speaker 3: local god to tear tire and I think so don
Speaker 3: as well at I think it's around the Finition area,
Speaker 3: but we'll folcus him there. So his name is called
Speaker 3: Bao like king of the city. And he's also involved
Speaker 3: in some sort of ritual burning where it's like a
Speaker 3: sort of wakening thing which ties them to Heracles, because
Speaker 3: Ractles also burnt when he died. Right, see the links already,
Speaker 3: So the two Melcourt Heracles are really quite well linked.
Speaker 3: It does seem. There's one person who says that Melcot
Speaker 3: STARTI was Melcart in Policia, moved to Greece way back
Speaker 3: in the day, like tenth century, eleventh, way back in
Speaker 3: the day, and the Greeks kind of liked him, turned
Speaker 3: into Hercules, and then he migrated back to Policia like Heracles,
Speaker 3: being like you know, they're kind of been basically Heracles
Speaker 3: did create Malcott maybe Melcot who created Heracles, but all
Speaker 3: these things.
Speaker 2: We don't have a reason, thou like, yeah, but like
Speaker 2: the sketchy anyway, we're not really too sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But also, like I mean, a lot of the especially
Speaker 2: like in Phoenician, that whole area obviously all of the
Speaker 2: East like really influenced so many different Greek deities and
Speaker 2: stuff too, right, which is just sort of absolutely yeah,
Speaker 2: the way they just kind of went back and forth
Speaker 2: and then changed the stories to make it seem like maybe, oh,
Speaker 2: maybe actually the Greeks influenced them. We're like, no, that's
Speaker 2: probably the.
Speaker 3: Definitely, because I think aphroditis in the European goddess she
Speaker 3: at least at.
Speaker 2: The Well's de gree so you know, yeah, she's really
Speaker 2: connected to the Phoenician goddess Astarte. And so you've got yeah,
Speaker 2: like all these different kind of back and forth gods
Speaker 2: and heroes, and I mean the Heracles are so unique
Speaker 2: too because like almost everyone can claim kind of like
Speaker 2: their own versions.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, so it's really fascinated. But basically you've got so
Speaker 3: you've got tired a bit of a straight and you
Speaker 3: have to realize as well, before before they got beaten
Speaker 3: up in the Hellenistic period they did people already had
Speaker 3: cott it onto this link between Malcot Eractles, the fact
Speaker 3: they were quite similar, and they kind of similar things
Speaker 3: they used to call the Greeks used to call so
Speaker 3: Herosses for example, calls Melkart the Tyrian or Tyrian Tyrin
Speaker 3: whatever Heracles. So they're already kind of thinking of it
Speaker 3: as like another form of Heracles, which they've they've represented
Speaker 3: a Greek way. I don't know if maybe the the
Speaker 3: Tyrians presented Heracles as you know, mac as Heracles to
Speaker 3: the green, maybe to tap the one sound, or they
Speaker 3: just went, oh, that looks similar, you know, yeah, he's Heraculis,
Speaker 3: because you know, the Greeks be Greeks. You want go
Speaker 3: along in little book, you like, yeah it looks like here,
Speaker 3: and they just make it up. I don't need it.
Speaker 3: But but this links already exist between the two of them.
Speaker 3: But as we move into the Hellenistic period you kind
Speaker 3: of get it kind of gets enhanced because the Greeks
Speaker 3: start not not taking over, but like the links between
Speaker 3: Phoenicia and Greece start to become a bit more like marked.
Speaker 3: You know, they get a bit of hybridity, the cultures
Speaker 3: kind of cross culturally entangling, you know, they're they're really
Speaker 3: they're merging into not one either. So I'm saying all
Speaker 3: the lot of things. They're just very They get more
Speaker 3: connected in the Hellenistic period, so there's this link between
Speaker 3: Heracles and mel Cup does become even more important than
Speaker 3: it already was. And it apparently it's fun as process
Speaker 3: because I'm about to refute this guy I don't like
Speaker 3: this by inter say it it's called Hellenization, which I
Speaker 3: don't like. It's very it's very clearly or it implies basically,
Speaker 3: the Greeks came along and hellenized, but then the leven
Speaker 3: Tines and the Phoenicians. That obviously isn't true, but I
Speaker 3: have to It's an interesting way to start the conversation
Speaker 3: because it does frame what's happening to a degree in
Speaker 3: the fact that you know, they were they were meeting
Speaker 3: each other. It's just it's far more of a give
Speaker 3: and take situation. Something the Grease got somethinking. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 3: a nice hybrid, a nice bit of hybrid melding, you know.
Speaker 3: But but yeah, it looks like basically, so they come
Speaker 3: along right, and Heracles entire Heracules and Malkart rather they
Speaker 3: kind of get mixed into one. That's the interesting bit.
Speaker 3: So you start see hybrid images of Malcot where it's
Speaker 3: wearing like the lion's skin. It's really interesting. There's one
Speaker 3: image of him where it looks like he's got like
Speaker 3: a like a lion cap, because like a like a
Speaker 3: sort of Phoenician or theoryan cap, not like a skin.
Speaker 3: So you see all these really interesting morphed versions of
Speaker 3: the myths as they try to kind of reconcile the
Speaker 3: two different gods together and make them into like one.
Speaker 3: And that's and it's really interesting. So you get this
Speaker 3: lovely bit of mythical hybridity happening entire as the two
Speaker 3: of them connect up basically, is just fascinating.
Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah, that's the one thing I really
Speaker 2: remember about. Like, so I had on Eduardo Garcia Molina,
Speaker 2: who studies at the Hellenistic period and so, and we
Speaker 2: talked about all of that and like that was where
Speaker 2: we kind of it was mostly in the East, and
Speaker 2: so it's interesting to hear you talking about it this
Speaker 2: way because that's the thing that really like came across
Speaker 2: so strongly to me is that they didn't like they
Speaker 2: didn't go in and like they did colonize it, obviously
Speaker 2: to an extent, but like they didn't go in and
Speaker 2: just like force. They didn't do it like North America,
Speaker 2: did you know, which is like completely force you know,
Speaker 2: the like British way of life onto an indigenous people
Speaker 2: and completely decimate their indigenoity. Like, instead, they went in
Speaker 2: and they were like, you've got these temples to your gods.
Speaker 2: We're gonna like toss in some Greek stuff and kind
Speaker 2: of squish it all together and sort of make something
Speaker 2: new yea. But also yeah, not not take away what
Speaker 2: is already part of the culture, which is really interesting
Speaker 2: and sort of just like I guess, just generally refreshing
Speaker 2: given the rest of like most colonizations, certainly mod in
Speaker 2: colonization is like, yeah, you're like, oh, you didn't completely
Speaker 2: take away everything they had before? Cool of you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I know, I know, I agree. It's I
Speaker 3: was really when I read this, I was really quite refreshed.
Speaker 3: I was like, Oh, that's that's a difference, isn't it. Not?
Speaker 3: So our bar is so loo as long as the
Speaker 3: don't come in and say your culture ship and then
Speaker 3: trying to change everything. You're like, woh my god, they're
Speaker 3: true patrons champions of equality. Yeah, so no they did.
Speaker 3: I think it's because. I think it's because you get
Speaker 3: Greek settlers. You like trickle into tear tire. I'm gonna
Speaker 3: just double barreling it the entire time they come in,
Speaker 3: Like you get all of them, you get like a
Speaker 3: steady stream of Greek settlers, you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: that's why you got this mastertone garrison. But you've got
Speaker 3: the Tyrian kings and it's all a bit of a mess.
Speaker 3: It's kind of because the city was already bit of
Speaker 3: a hodge podge' already really by the Henson period. That
Speaker 3: I think that's why this kind of this hybrid mythology
Speaker 3: start to come about like more gently and less you know,
Speaker 3: extremely the colonization with the cat I'll see. I think
Speaker 3: that's why really, because it's just more of a gentle,
Speaker 3: slow process. Well it helps.
Speaker 2: The gods are so mixed, so yeah, they are, especially
Speaker 2: across the whole Mediterranean except Egyptians, who you know, put
Speaker 2: animals on everything.
Speaker 3: But like, yeah, it's I would as well.
Speaker 2: Actually I mean, I love the Egyptian gods, to get
Speaker 2: me wrong, but like it is, yeah, it's so easy
Speaker 2: to kind of see your own god in the local
Speaker 2: gods in the e But also yeah, like you're saying,
Speaker 2: like there was so much like immigration too, Like really
Speaker 2: they just the whole ancient Mediterranean was pretty mixed up
Speaker 2: and kind of just like everyone all over the place.
Speaker 2: So then yeah, by the time that people come in
Speaker 2: and they're like, well, we're actually ruling you now, but like, yeah,
Speaker 2: we've you know, our people have kind of been here before.
Speaker 2: It's not brand new.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, no, absolutely, yeah, it's just it's just it's
Speaker 3: just pretty fascinating. It's just pretty fascinating. I love the
Speaker 3: I love the hybrid tea about it.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me, like, do you know anything about
Speaker 2: you mentioned Europa being utilized by them a lot? Do
Speaker 2: you know much about that, because I'm just curious. I
Speaker 2: didn't realize that they kind of took her on and
Speaker 2: that way, I wonder I didn't. I realized I never
Speaker 2: kind of connected who who necessarily invented her if anyone
Speaker 2: kind of claimed inventing her.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, well, you know what, actually, the my general idea
Speaker 3: of Europa and going to that ties into going past
Speaker 3: the Hellenistic When you go towards the Roman period, I
Speaker 3: think it's the second century a d. I think it is.
Speaker 3: I'm not Romanists, So this is going to come. This
Speaker 3: is going to sound really frazzily, but I know this bit,
Speaker 3: so I'm just going to keep it within my wheelhouse.
Speaker 3: The bits I understand. So it's really fascinating because basically
Speaker 3: you've got you've got Roman empire, got Roman Empire, great
Speaker 3: start already and then you've got it doesn't matter, it's
Speaker 3: time the Roman jolly come lates. No one cares, but
Speaker 3: you have beau, do you have tire? And basically tyre
Speaker 3: Like they're showing the Roman emperor and the coin. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 3: we're Roman colony, blah blah blah that stuff. And then
Speaker 3: when Roman power starts to climb, they're a bit like,
Speaker 3: we can be us again. You see, their coin is change,
Speaker 3: so they start putting their own local myths on the coins.
Speaker 3: Not really mal cart at this stage. So there's a
Speaker 3: lovely coin of melcar Ride like a hippocampy, just love that.
Speaker 3: He's just chilling out there. It was like little thing, right, hippocampy.
Speaker 3: He looks, he looks, he looks, he looks fire, he looks,
Speaker 3: he looks so radiant. It's beautiful. But I mean you
Speaker 3: never see heracles and that kind of cool coin, and
Speaker 3: it's always Rackes is stabbing at the club like looking lazy.
Speaker 3: But this guy's running a freaking hippo campy. And it's
Speaker 3: on a bow too, Like, what's he going to shoot
Speaker 3: with the bow? See? Like yeah, I think if he
Speaker 3: shoots the water, the arrow will lose momentums. I don't
Speaker 3: know what he's doing, but I mean he's just living
Speaker 3: his life. He's ground's bow far into the water, hitting nothing.
Speaker 3: He doesn't care, Melco don't care. He's happy. I think
Speaker 3: it's a cool. But I see you ride. Basically, as
Speaker 3: they go over the Roman colonies, they become a bit warm.
Speaker 3: They get their own automy back, basically, and its reflects
Speaker 3: all the coid they start to like they stop talking
Speaker 3: about the alphabet that they gave the Greeks again. You know,
Speaker 3: he gave you this grammar. They show your rope on
Speaker 3: the coins quite frequently because it's kind of this is
Speaker 3: a local myth we have, which is regional and established
Speaker 3: power and connects us to creating. You know, there's a
Speaker 3: lot of stuff to do with it. So you basically
Speaker 3: see over time their mytholotical themes take over the coinage,
Speaker 3: their local ones, as own identity starts to emerge as
Speaker 3: they get to express themselves again. And it's this beautiful
Speaker 3: progression of basically mythotical identity of a time from being
Speaker 3: like subservient Roman empress to Taia. It always glories. Eventually,
Speaker 3: it's just proper beautiful local volly tarian coins coming out
Speaker 3: of it. That's just so cool that it be just
Speaker 3: you wrote her the Greek text of their names, just
Speaker 3: just there being them really eventually, Yeah, and it's it's lovely.
Speaker 3: It's really cool to see.
Speaker 2: I have this whole book on the Phoenicians that I've
Speaker 2: been beeting to read forever, so I really don't know
Speaker 2: that much about them, but I'm curious about that because
Speaker 2: it's it's like I don't, Yeah, I wish I knew
Speaker 2: more about Europa and whether she did kind of exist
Speaker 2: in the Phoenician mythology like before Greece or even like
Speaker 2: simultaneously with when she was, you know, coming about in
Speaker 2: that like those most ancient kind of Greek myths but
Speaker 2: it feels to me that it's almost like using her
Speaker 2: at that time period is also like there's there's still
Speaker 2: some of that Greek influence coming in. There's like, you know,
Speaker 2: it's kind of like a melding of sort of. I mean,
Speaker 2: when you're talking about something that's like two thousand years,
Speaker 2: you know, everything's going to kind of meld together in
Speaker 2: really interesting ways. And like, yeah, specifically utilizing Europa feels
Speaker 2: like that in a really satisfying way. Also, she's on
Speaker 2: the euro sometimes, and it's like that's a nice little callback, yeah,
Speaker 2: on certain Greek euros because they're like everyone gets their own.
Speaker 2: I know, Greek has like a few different euros, but
Speaker 2: Europe is definitely on one of them. Like riding the
Speaker 2: ball that's cool.
Speaker 3: Oh that's really cool. Oh man, I learn you today.
Speaker 3: I'm going to be such in these coins.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, collectin.
Speaker 3: I didn't know I was going to start collecting euros,
Speaker 3: but it turns out I start I will.
Speaker 2: That's like the only euro I have collected is the
Speaker 2: one with Europa. And also it's like the most appropriate
Speaker 2: euro of all of them, Like it's literally where the
Speaker 2: word comes from. I love it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Yeah, yeah, it makes perth.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, remlike to me, Yeah, but she created like Europe.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's sad at.
Speaker 3: I mean that's an achievement, isn't like imagine thinking like
Speaker 3: you come hobby, like what did you today? Oh? I
Speaker 3: am filled with documents. I created Europe.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, named a continent. Don't worry about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't worry about that. Like an imposter synd. I'm like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: I named I name this island, I named a continent.
Speaker 3: It's not a big deal, though, you're like, oh man, yourself,
Speaker 3: Estege is a plum.
Speaker 2: That just makes you.
Speaker 3: The other Greek godllesses were annoyed with her, like that's why,
Speaker 3: that's why they just felt so ship. They're just like yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: I just think about now, like Tadma's and your ropa
Speaker 2: have at least one, maybe two other siblings. I think
Speaker 2: of how many, because I know Phoenix is one, and
Speaker 2: it's like, okay, Phoenix gets he named Phoenicia, Cadmus gave
Speaker 2: the alphabet to Greece. You're Ropa named Europe. But I
Speaker 2: have a feeling there's another one, and I just can't
Speaker 2: imagine being like, think that fourth sibling.
Speaker 3: No, there is a fourth sibling, and you are right.
Speaker 3: I can't remember the name because I because I like
Speaker 3: I too fair. I announced that the podcast. I don't
Speaker 3: remember anything my brain. I have a term.
Speaker 2: I'm looking it up in case it's extra funny and
Speaker 2: we miss it.
Speaker 3: See that's that's that's I really. I kind of hope
Speaker 3: he has done nothing now, because I know.
Speaker 2: Exactly it's funnier if he's like, oh, yeah, here we go,
Speaker 2: Kyla C I L I X. Who's this guy?
Speaker 3: Sorry, dude, Like, yeah, sorry, it's not I mean, even
Speaker 3: if he is good found the tree.
Speaker 2: Exactly a cad miss Phoenix. And then that other guy, Oh,
Speaker 2: his name means like it's some kind of combination of disappointments.
Speaker 2: His name just means disappointment exactly. Okay, what a beautiful
Speaker 2: way of wrapping up Phoenicia. This has been clearly so
Speaker 2: much fun. I feel like I never quite know, Like
Speaker 2: I'm very glad, I never quite know what the episode
Speaker 2: is going to turn out to him like this sounds
Speaker 2: really interesting, and like it's always really interesting, but sometimes
Speaker 2: it turns into like, okay, also, we're just gonna laugh
Speaker 2: a hell of a lot about the ancient world and
Speaker 2: I particularly love that, so thank.
Speaker 3: You good no, good good. I came on. My mantra
Speaker 3: before coming on was don't be bored, don't be boring,
Speaker 3: don't be boring.
Speaker 2: It's never boring. I can talk about anti agree, so
Speaker 2: like I can always pull out fascinating stuff because everybody
Speaker 2: knows something interesting. But it is extra helpful when it
Speaker 2: becomes a conversation that is both fascinating and ridiculous. Those
Speaker 2: are my favorites.
Speaker 3: Absolutely not I'm with you, with you absolutely Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well this is the best. Can you do you have
Speaker 2: anywhere that you want my listeners to like, follow you
Speaker 2: or learn more? Just kind of anything you want to
Speaker 2: share on that front.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's a good idea. Oh I'm gonna you're
Speaker 3: gonna have to cut this gnat to actually think about this.
Speaker 3: That's fine, Okay, what do I so? I'm so I'm
Speaker 3: so bad at social stuff?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's it's only if.
Speaker 3: We want to No, No, that's like, I mean, I
Speaker 3: probably should. That's what people keep telling I probably should,
Speaker 3: So I will. I will. Okay, let me think, do
Speaker 3: I have anything? See, I'm so I'm so rubbish a
Speaker 3: social media that if they fellow my social media price fault.
Speaker 3: It's like one imitch. I'm gonna say it anyway because
Speaker 3: you never know. Maybe it'll take off one day and
Speaker 3: they'll need to they'll need to know what is it.
Speaker 3: I think I'm act roon Ruddic on Twitter. It's it's
Speaker 3: really simple. I haven't got like a crazy cool name.
Speaker 3: I'm just at and otherwise I don't Facebook. I don't
Speaker 3: really have anything on like that. You don't follow people there,
Speaker 3: and I guess they could check out if they want,
Speaker 3: they could check out my profile and the university. It's
Speaker 3: it's incredibly boring, but if they wanted to, it's got
Speaker 3: my email, so if they want to find me there
Speaker 3: they could. It's probably correct.
Speaker 2: Actually, and you're a new.
Speaker 3: Guests Yeah, I'm in Newcastle.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: The main point is for this for your sound bite.
Speaker 3: They can follow me on I think an actorone buddic
Speaker 3: on Twitter or better yet, if they want to email
Speaker 3: me to talk about anything. First of all, I am
Speaker 3: always so happy to talk about everything. I really I
Speaker 3: don't know if they came across the square of the podcast,
Speaker 3: but I'm such a friendly person. I love talking about things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, now you sounded really mean during this whole I
Speaker 2: know bitch.
Speaker 3: Mode, you know what I mean? Like I was just
Speaker 3: trying to be as bitch as possible.
Speaker 2: I I do.
Speaker 3: I love tolds people. I love helping out things and
Speaker 3: answering questions. I really really do. And I don't believe that,
Speaker 3: but I do. So if you if you type I
Speaker 3: think you type in Jerome Roddick at Newcastle University on Google.
Speaker 3: Even my neighbor literally find a little profile that my
Speaker 3: university made for me. And and that's why I've got
Speaker 3: an email which is is otherwise my email is something
Speaker 3: like j dot m dot l dot Ruddick two at
Speaker 3: Newcastle dot ac dot UK. See that's a mouthful. No
Speaker 3: one to say that. Google. Please people Google. So yes,
Speaker 3: that's where you can find me. And yeah, I am
Speaker 3: happy to be approached about literally anything. I love doing
Speaker 3: classics outreach for example. So if you listened to any
Speaker 3: of this and thought that's a fucking psycho that I
Speaker 3: worn't mind doing some outreach with or anythink, then yeah,
Speaker 3: come on board. So great. So yeah, that is it.
Speaker 3: That's that is my that's my SoundBite. There there's replay
Speaker 3: that again.
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you so much for doing this. This has
Speaker 2: been so much fun.
Speaker 3: In fact was it. Thank you, Ozzie, thank you so
Speaker 3: much for having me. This is beat up. This has
Speaker 3: been really really fun, like this has been good time.
Speaker 2: So good ugh Nerds, thank you as always for listening
Speaker 2: again like seriously ridiculously fun episode. God's obviously I love
Speaker 2: recording all of my conversations. I'm always learning so fucking
Speaker 2: much and it's so interesting and everyone is so nice
Speaker 2: and it's seriously the coolest thing in the entire world
Speaker 2: that these people want to talk to me. But when
Speaker 2: I'm also laughing my ass off throughout, that's just a bonus.
Speaker 2: So huge thanks to Jerome for not only talking to
Speaker 2: me for this episode and sharing so much fascinating information
Speaker 2: but also being hilarious and uh also for waiting forever
Speaker 2: for the episode to come out. Thank you, Jerome. Let's
Speaker 2: talk about it. This baby is written and produced by
Speaker 2: me Live Albert Mikhaela. Smith is the Hermeans to my
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Speaker 2: I am live and God's I love this shit. Thank
Speaker 2: you for coming along with me all the time. It's
Speaker 2: just super cool.