Speaker 1: The sisters Night begot implacable, terrific furies sat before the
Speaker 1: prison portals. Adamantine confined combing black vipers from their horrid
Speaker 1: hair to Syphony, whose locks entangled are not ever smooth,
Speaker 1: tossed them around that backward from her face. Such crawling
Speaker 1: snakes were thrown to Syphony. Revengeful takes a torch, besmeared
Speaker 1: with blood and vested in a robe dripping with crimson
Speaker 1: gore and twisting snakes and girdled. She departs her dire
Speaker 1: abode with twitching madness, terror, fear, and woe. Mary stands
Speaker 1: with arms extended and alive with twisting vipers. She shakes
Speaker 1: her hair the moving serpent's hiss. They cling upon her shoulders,
Speaker 1: and they glide around her temples, dart their fangs and
Speaker 1: vomit corruption. Plucking from the midst two snakes, she hurls
Speaker 1: them with her pestilential hand upon her victims, and with
Speaker 1: a monstrous composite of foam once gathered from the mouth
Speaker 1: of Cerberus, the venom of echidnap, purposeless abhorrences, crimes, tears, hatred,
Speaker 1: the lust of homicide, and the dark vaporings of foolish brains,
Speaker 1: a liquid poison mixed and mingled with fresh blood in
Speaker 1: hollow brass, and boiled and stirred up with the slip
Speaker 1: of hemlock. She took it and as they trembled through
Speaker 1: that mad mixed poison on them, and it scorched their
Speaker 1: inmost vitals. And she waved her torch repeatedly within a
Speaker 1: circle's rim and added to the flame.
Speaker 2: Oh oh, hi, hello there, this is Let's talk about
Speaker 2: MIT's baby. And I am your host live who still
Speaker 2: can't quite fathom how incredible Seneca is despite being a Roman.
Speaker 2: But I mean, I'm here for it all the same.
Speaker 2: Seneca is so fun and by fun I mean violent
Speaker 2: and gory and horrifying. But that is pretty damned fun
Speaker 2: when it comes to ancient sources, particularly during this spookiest
Speaker 2: of seasons, and also just for my dark black soul.
Speaker 2: Now that quote I read at the top wasn't actually Seneca.
Speaker 2: I felt like maybe we could just use a refresher
Speaker 2: on why exactly the furies are so terrifying, Why this
Speaker 2: play opening with a cursed ghost and a fury speaking
Speaker 2: of unimaginable crimes was actually one of the most troubling,
Speaker 2: horrifying fear inducing things that one could witness on a stage.
Speaker 2: So that passage was from Abby's Metamorphoses, actually adapted based
Speaker 2: on some inspiration I found on THEOI dot COM's page
Speaker 2: on the appearance of the Furies. Because remember, these aren't
Speaker 2: just any goddesses. They aren't just bloodthirsty and perpetually seeking
Speaker 2: to punish those who commit crimes against family members. They're
Speaker 2: also well, they're writhing with vipers, familiar with all sorts
Speaker 2: of really troubling poisons, and generally just terrible and I
Speaker 2: love them.
Speaker 1: But of course, today we are concerned with the play
Speaker 1: that that magnificent Fury opened for us last week, Senecus Diyestes,
Speaker 1: and gods know, I'm going to have way too much
Speaker 1: to say about this play, so let's not trouble ourselves
Speaker 1: with much in the wave of introductions, shall we. Where
Speaker 1: we last left off of Senecus Thiastes, the play had
Speaker 1: opened with the ghost of a cursed and eternally punished
Speaker 1: Tantalus returned to his family line to watch as shit
Speaker 1: is about to go down, and it's going to be
Speaker 1: particularly fucked up because well, the only other person who
Speaker 1: opened the play is this Gods damned Fury, this goddess
Speaker 1: of vengeance, who spends the opening act calling for violence
Speaker 1: and bloodshed and literally every horrifying thing that she can imagine.
Speaker 1: And then we meet Atreus, brother of Thiestes, son of Pelops,
Speaker 1: who is hell bent on exacting revenge on his brother
Speaker 1: for stealing his throne and his wife. What's the punishment
Speaker 1: for that, you ask, Well, it'd probably be different if
Speaker 1: a Fury didn't have her hand in the family's business,
Speaker 1: but she does so the only reasonable revenge is to
Speaker 1: trick Thiestes into killing and eating his own children. Obviously,
Speaker 1: so trigger warning for that. This is episode two thirty three.
Speaker 1: What the Goddess of Divine Retribution wants The Goddess of
Speaker 1: Divine Retribution gets Seneca's Thyestes Part two. What madness pricks
Speaker 1: you on to shed by turns each other's blood and
Speaker 1: by crime to gain the throne? You know? Not for
Speaker 1: high place greedy, wherein true kingship lies a king neither
Speaker 1: riches makes, nor robes of tyrian hue, nor crown upon
Speaker 1: the royal brow, nor doors with gold bright gleaming. A
Speaker 1: king is he who has laid fear aside, and the
Speaker 1: base longings of an evil heart, whom ambition unrestrained and
Speaker 1: the fickle favor of the reckless mob move. Not neither
Speaker 1: all the mind treasures of the west, nor the golden
Speaker 1: sands which Tagus sweeps along in his shining bed, nor
Speaker 1: all the grain trod out on burning Libya's threshing floors,
Speaker 1: whom no hurtling path of the slanting thunderbolts will shake,
Speaker 1: nor Urus harrying the sea, nor wind swept adriatic swell
Speaker 1: raging with cruel wave, whom no warriors lance, nor bare
Speaker 1: steel ever mastered, who in safe de established sees all
Speaker 1: things beneath his feet, goes gladly to meet his fate,
Speaker 1: nor grieves to die. Those lines, well, we haven't quite
Speaker 1: gotten there yet. That's the next coral oed. It's just
Speaker 1: that I really enjoy opening these episodes with as many
Speaker 1: quotes as I can because the source material is just
Speaker 1: it's so good. But before we get to the chorus,
Speaker 1: his thoughts on the crimes of this family, the crimes
Speaker 1: that are still to be committed, and just what kingship
Speaker 1: actually means, we have Atreus working to get himself to
Speaker 1: the point where he is actually prepared to trick his
Speaker 1: exiled brother into murdering and eating his own children. Atreus
Speaker 1: has voiced the thought, that's how we ended last week's episode.
Speaker 1: He has this plan, but he's still got his servant
Speaker 1: there with him, trying to talk just a little bit
Speaker 1: of sense into the king. Remember the servant suggested Atreus
Speaker 1: just outright kill Thistes earlier. The man isn't against revenge.
Speaker 1: He just realizes that there's revenge, and then there's what
Speaker 1: Atreus is planning, and one is far, far worse than
Speaker 1: the other. Atreus a servant quickly realizes that he's not
Speaker 1: about to convince Atreus to change his mind, but maybe
Speaker 1: he can at least try to point out that this
Speaker 1: plan is well, it might be a hint difficult to
Speaker 1: pull off. So the servant asks Atreus how he's going
Speaker 1: to trick his brother? How is he going to lure
Speaker 1: him back to the palace so that Atrius could even
Speaker 1: get him into the position to fall into this plan.
Speaker 1: They don't exactly have a close relationship. Thistes isn't just
Speaker 1: going to wander back and give Atreus a nice brotherly hug.
Speaker 1: My brother wants the kingdom, is Atreus's reply. The hope
Speaker 1: that he could gain the throne back from me, take
Speaker 1: over the ruling of Mycenie like he's always wanted. That
Speaker 1: would make him brave enough to return, or at least
Speaker 1: brave enough to face seeing his brother again. Of course,
Speaker 1: there's still some convincing that will need to be done.
Speaker 1: Thiistes isn't stupid. He's not going to just easily trust
Speaker 1: that Atrius isn't plenning to kill him the minute he
Speaker 1: returns to Mycenie. So Atrius says, quote, I will send
Speaker 1: my sons to tell their uncle his days of wandering
Speaker 1: in exile are finally over. And he's certain that even
Speaker 1: if Thistes himself isn't sold, if he still hesitant, his sons,
Speaker 1: who've spent their lives in exile, they will be tired
Speaker 1: enough to be convinced, and then they will convince him.
Speaker 1: His servant tries, at least briefly, to convince Atrias not
Speaker 1: to involve the children, not his and not Thiistes. Quote.
Speaker 1: If you teach them to turn on their uncle, they
Speaker 1: will turn on their father. Crime often comes back round
Speaker 1: again to teach its teacher. But no, the children have
Speaker 1: to be involved. They will be the easiest to use. Besides,
Speaker 1: Atreus says, it's not as though they aren't already bad.
Speaker 1: The entire family is a lost cause. Quote the plan
Speaker 1: you call so wicked, which you think savage, brutal, blasphemous.
Speaker 1: Maybe Thiestes is plotting it already. He determines that he
Speaker 1: won't tell the children of his plot. He will keep
Speaker 1: them all innocent of his crimes. He's gonna keep the
Speaker 1: children out of it. The hatred between brothers. They don't
Speaker 1: need to be involved in that, at least his own
Speaker 1: children don't. Agamemnon and Menelaus. They don't need to be involved.
Speaker 1: They don't need to know Distes's children. They're a different story.
Speaker 1: They're involved, but in a different way. Atreus is once
Speaker 1: again affected by the curse on his family, or the
Speaker 1: presence of the fury, or some combination of the two,
Speaker 1: because for the second time in this play you can
Speaker 1: almost see outside machinations taking place. He says very clearly
Speaker 1: that he doesn't want to involve his children, that he
Speaker 1: wants to keep them innocent of the crimes he's planning.
Speaker 1: Even when he has them going to try to convince
Speaker 1: Thiestes to come back. He still wants to keep them
Speaker 1: innocent of the truth behind it, and then almost immediately
Speaker 1: he seems to change his mind. It feels to me
Speaker 1: that the Fury is like taking hold of Atreus here
Speaker 1: like she did early when he was voicing his need
Speaker 1: for revenge, just as she seemed to change his mind
Speaker 1: from simple revenge, you know, pain or death for Thiistes,
Speaker 1: into something more horrifying than anything seen before in myth.
Speaker 1: The use of Thiestes's own children. They're death and worse.
Speaker 1: This Fury again is shifting Atreus's thoughts on including his
Speaker 1: own children in the plan. Just moments after he says
Speaker 1: he won't implicate his own children in his crime, he
Speaker 1: seems to stop himself. No, he says, quote, if you
Speaker 1: spare your boys, you will spare his too. Let Egamemnon
Speaker 1: be a knowing instrument of my plot. Let Menalis be
Speaker 1: conscious of the crime. Now now he wants them in
Speaker 1: on it. He wants them to be willing participants for
Speaker 1: somewhat practical reasons, which we will get into. But more
Speaker 1: than that, I think that it's this suggestion that this,
Speaker 1: all of this ultimate is happening because it's what the
Speaker 1: Fury wants she wants the curse to continue on through
Speaker 1: this family. She wants Agamemnon and Menelayis to be just
Speaker 1: as guilty as their father, because, as we well know,
Speaker 1: this will not be the last time that a fury
Speaker 1: haunts a member of this family. It's not even the
Speaker 1: most famous time that furies haunt a member of this family.
Speaker 1: Atreus goes on to explain that using his own children
Speaker 1: in this way, giving them this role in the violent
Speaker 1: and horrific destruction of Thiestes, this active role will also
Speaker 1: help him. He'll be able to find out once and
Speaker 1: for all the paternity of his sons. Are they really
Speaker 1: his or did Thiastes take them from him too? He
Speaker 1: says that his children, if they are actually the blood
Speaker 1: of Thiste, they will give themselves away. If they refuse
Speaker 1: to take part in this plan, then he is certainly
Speaker 1: their father. Quote a fearful face often reveals the truth.
Speaker 1: Large plots betray people against their will. Atreus adds to
Speaker 1: his servant very seriously a warning to keep silent on
Speaker 1: everything that he's heard, to which the servant tells him
Speaker 1: that he doesn't even need to be told that, like
Speaker 1: loyalty and fear will keep him silent, He says, it
Speaker 1: leans more towards the loyalty. Somehow, I don't believe him.
Speaker 1: With Atreus's plans solidified and his secret safe with his servant,
Speaker 1: they both presumably leave the stage, and with that, finally
Speaker 1: the chorus speaks up again, but they seem confused. The
Speaker 1: chorus seems to think that the rivalry between brothers has
Speaker 1: been sordid, that it's been just handled. But if they do,
Speaker 1: that only adds to the drama the audience. The audience
Speaker 1: would be more than aware of what is to come.
Speaker 1: Even if the chorus thinks everything is fine. They open
Speaker 1: their ode, which is serving as a transition of time
Speaker 1: in the vein of Greek tragedy, by exclaiming about how
Speaker 1: happy they are that these brothers have finally sorted out
Speaker 1: their argument. They go on to speak of what exactly
Speaker 1: makes a king. It's not wealth or fine clothes. It's
Speaker 1: not a crown or how much gold you can jam
Speaker 1: into your palace. Quote. A king is one who can
Speaker 1: set fear aside, who has no wickedness inside his heart. Chorus,
Speaker 1: Have I got news for you about your king? But
Speaker 1: they go on and like in Seneca's Medea, there's absolutely
Speaker 1: commentary here on the Roman empire and its methods. Who
Speaker 1: will pretend like I know exactly what Seneca is getting
Speaker 1: at here. I don't know his work well enough, or
Speaker 1: his mindset or role well enough. But it's very reminiscent
Speaker 1: of those speeches in Medea, which seem to focus upon
Speaker 1: all the corners of the Roman Empire. Here, though the
Speaker 1: chorus is commenting on leadership and goodness. They're seeming to
Speaker 1: suggest that good leadership is a strong mind, bravery, but
Speaker 1: also the willingness to meet one's fate, that there's no
Speaker 1: need for arms for war, no need to destroy cities
Speaker 1: by siege. So it seems to me there's a bit
Speaker 1: of criticism on Rome's imperialism here, because Carthage happened. It's
Speaker 1: also I gather part of Seneca's stoicism coming through. He's
Speaker 1: a philosopher after all. But again that's about the extent
Speaker 1: of my knowledge on the Stoicism, and I'd really rather
Speaker 1: focus on the mythology of it all anyway. The point
Speaker 1: is simply, the chorus has a whole lot to say
Speaker 1: about the role of kings, the definition of what makes
Speaker 1: a good ruler, and their own appreciation for their simple life.
Speaker 1: They are happy not to be the leaders or kings. Quote.
Speaker 1: Let my life flow by in silence, unmarked by the
Speaker 1: people of Rome. When my days have passed in this
Speaker 1: way without noise, Let me grow old, but never rise
Speaker 1: in class, and let me die at last.
Speaker 3: I see the welcome dwellings of my fatherland, the wealth
Speaker 3: of our goaliest and the greatest and best sights to
Speaker 3: wretched exiles, a stretch of native soil, and my ancestral gods,
Speaker 3: if after all gods, there are the sacred towers reared
Speaker 3: by the cyclopes, in beauty far excelling human effort, the
Speaker 3: racecourse thronged with youth, where more than once lifted to fame,
Speaker 3: have I in my father's chariot won. The palm argos
Speaker 3: will come to meet me, and the thronging populace will come.
Speaker 3: But surely atreus too, rather seek again your retreats in
Speaker 3: the forest depths, the impenetrable glades, and life shared with
Speaker 3: beasts and like to theirs. This gleaming splendor of the
Speaker 3: throne is not that should blind my eyes with its
Speaker 3: false tinsel.
Speaker 1: Show. When you look upon the gift, scan well the
Speaker 1: giver too, have laid amid such fortune as all count hard.
Speaker 1: I was brave and joyous, But now I am returned
Speaker 1: to fears. My courage falters, and eager to go back,
Speaker 1: I move unwilling feet along. Diestes has returned to my scene,
Speaker 1: and he's got his two sons with him. Those were
Speaker 1: some of his first lines. When Thiistes returns to mycene,
Speaker 1: our goal is after so long in exile, He's relieved
Speaker 1: to be there too, to be home after so long,
Speaker 1: and to have his sons with him there. It's long due,
Speaker 1: but he's not stupid. For all, he's happy to be home,
Speaker 1: to see the realm that he knows so well, that
Speaker 1: holds such good childhood memories. He's also worried. He knows
Speaker 1: how he left things with his brother. He knows that
Speaker 1: it can't be so simple as just him returning home
Speaker 1: to a warm welcome. Thiastes, though, isn't there alone. Of course,
Speaker 1: his two sons are with him, and they are a
Speaker 1: welcome company. Only one of Thiistes' sons is going to
Speaker 1: speak in the play, and his name is Tantalus. Yep,
Speaker 1: Tantalus junior. God's damn if that's not exactly what I'm
Speaker 1: gonna call him, because how iconic to name your child
Speaker 1: after your own grandfather, who famed killed your father and
Speaker 1: fed him to the gods. Like, okay, fine, I know
Speaker 1: it's just a family tradition to name one's child after
Speaker 1: yourself or your father, But when your father is Tantalus, like,
Speaker 1: maybe you just sit that one out. Regardless. His other son,
Speaker 1: who won't have a speaking line, is named Plisones according
Speaker 1: to the older translation I have too that I've used
Speaker 1: for long speeches. There's a third son who's unnamed, but
Speaker 1: I think it's simpler to just go with the two.
Speaker 1: There will be a third son eventually, but I don't
Speaker 1: think he's born yet. So we are concerned with Tantalus
Speaker 1: Junior and Polisthenes. Once Thiestes has hesitated in his return
Speaker 1: to our Golis, it has showed that while he's happy
Speaker 1: to be home, he's weary. He's not ready to trust
Speaker 1: how things are gonna go. Tantalus Junior speaks up, why
Speaker 1: are you so unsure, father, why are you hesitating? Biastes response,
Speaker 1: But it's almost just to himself. He's not really replying
Speaker 1: to his son. He's just questioning himself allowed. Why am
Speaker 1: I hesitating? He asks himself, Quote when everything is in doubt,
Speaker 1: the kingdom and your brother, why would you fear more suffering?
Speaker 1: He goes on, noting that he should be used to
Speaker 1: pain by now, used to evil deeds and suffering, but
Speaker 1: even still like, maybe I should turn back? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I should turn back. Thieste says, quote, turn
Speaker 1: back and tear yourself away while you still can. Why
Speaker 1: are you so afraid? Father? Tantalus Junior asks, you're finally home.
Speaker 1: Why are you threatening to turn back now? Quote? Your
Speaker 1: brother is no longer angry? He returns and restores to
Speaker 1: you part of the kingdom. He sets the bones of
Speaker 1: the broken house and gives you back yourself. And there's
Speaker 1: our reveal. This, it seems, is what Atreus is using
Speaker 1: to lure Thiestes back to Myceni. He's told him that
Speaker 1: he will share the kingdom, that the two brothers can
Speaker 1: split the home. That's rightfully theirs that he's no longer
Speaker 1: angry at Thiestes, He's not holding a grudge. Clearly, Thiastes's
Speaker 1: children have been sold on this exactly as Adrius wanted,
Speaker 1: And why wouldn't they We're to gather, at least for now,
Speaker 1: that it was Agamemnon and Menelaus who carried this news,
Speaker 1: who came to their uncle and cousins and convinced them
Speaker 1: that Atreus wanted to reunite with his brother, that it's
Speaker 1: all water under the bridge, that all is forgiven, and
Speaker 1: they should return home after so long in exile, to
Speaker 1: just take what's rightfully theirs. Ah, So why is Thyestes
Speaker 1: still so afraid even he's not sure? He tells his
Speaker 1: sons he doesn't see any reason to be afraid. He
Speaker 1: doesn't see anything that he should fear, and yet he's
Speaker 1: still scared. He says that he wants to keep walking
Speaker 1: to fully return home, but that his legs just won't
Speaker 1: seem to carry him there. There's just there is something
Speaker 1: keeping him from following through. Don't worry, father, Tantalus Junior
Speaker 1: reassures him. If you can overcome these things that are
Speaker 1: just only in your mind, this fear that you don't
Speaker 1: have a reason for quote, and look to all the
Speaker 1: prizes you can get if you return back, father, you
Speaker 1: can be king I can. Thistes concedes, though he's still
Speaker 1: not certain of anything. Tantalus Junior, though, tries to convince him,
Speaker 1: and seems it's not unselfish either, his desire for Thiistes
Speaker 1: to return and take his place on the soon to
Speaker 1: be shared thrown. He points out that his children will
Speaker 1: inherit it if he takes it back, to which Thiistes says,
Speaker 1: very simply quote, the kingdom cannot hold two, which God
Speaker 1: means more than he or anyone else can realize. No, Thiistes,
Speaker 1: it can't hold too. It can't hold too now, and
Speaker 1: it can't hold two even in the generation still to come. False,
Speaker 1: believe me, are the titles that give greatness charm idle
Speaker 1: our fears of hardship. While I stood high, empowered, Never
Speaker 1: did I cease to dread, to fear the very sword
Speaker 1: upon my thigh. Oh how good it is to stand
Speaker 1: in no man's road, care free to eat one's bread
Speaker 1: on the ground, reclining. Crime enters not lowly homes, and
Speaker 1: in and safety is food taken at a slender board.
Speaker 1: Poison is drunk from cups of gold. I speak that
Speaker 1: I do know evil fortune is to be preferred to good.
Speaker 1: The lowly citizen fears no house of mine, said high
Speaker 1: and threatening on a mountaintop. My towering roofs flash not
Speaker 1: with gleaming ivory. No guard watches over my slumbers. With
Speaker 1: no fleet of boats. I fish with no piled breakwater.
Speaker 1: Do I drive back the sea? But I am not feared.
Speaker 1: Safe without weapons is my house and to my small estate.
Speaker 1: Great peace is granted. When Tantalus Junior asks his father
Speaker 1: how he could consider choosing an unhappy fate when a
Speaker 1: happy one is within reach, that speech I just read
Speaker 1: is Tantalus's reply, the cut a bit for time. He's
Speaker 1: saying that the things that we think are great often
Speaker 1: are misleading. Those things, like being a king and ruling
Speaker 1: a people all that it comes with might seem appealing
Speaker 1: if you've never experienced them, But once you've lived it,
Speaker 1: those things can lose their luster. They stop seeming so
Speaker 1: exciting and appealing. Instead, a simple life can be much
Speaker 1: better than that of a leader. He says that his
Speaker 1: life in exile might have lacked the glamour and riches
Speaker 1: of being royalty in our goal is, but it also
Speaker 1: lacked the fear and anxiety that came with holding the throne,
Speaker 1: let alone that which came along with the resulting brotherly feud.
Speaker 1: The way Emily Wilson translates the last line of Thiestes'
Speaker 1: reply really says it all quote the ability to do
Speaker 1: without a kingdom is a kingdom. So this Thiestes is
Speaker 1: really interesting, at least what little we've seen of him
Speaker 1: up to now. Atreus wanted us, you know, the audience,
Speaker 1: to believe that Thiestes was the worst man life, that
Speaker 1: he is hateful and disgusting, that he deserves the horrific
Speaker 1: fate that Atreus is planning for him. And when that's
Speaker 1: all we have about the man, it's easy to believe.
Speaker 1: But now that we're hearing from him, now that he's
Speaker 1: rehashing things about his past, thinking about his life so
Speaker 1: openly and along with his beloved sons, he becomes sympathetic.
Speaker 1: Thiest seems reasonable, He does not seem so bad. So
Speaker 1: now we get to wonder does he deserve it? He
Speaker 1: who is really the wronged party here? Obviously the fate
Speaker 1: that's planned isn't something that anyone ever could deserve. But
Speaker 1: aside from that, still is he so bad? Or is
Speaker 1: Atrius the one who is either at fault or simply
Speaker 1: going way way, way, way way too far, Or even better,
Speaker 1: is Atreus that consumed by the will of the fury
Speaker 1: that he's just making thighs into someone who deserves this.
Speaker 1: How much of this entire situation is the will of
Speaker 1: these two brothers, you know, the results of their actions,
Speaker 1: and how much of it is caused by that goddess
Speaker 1: of vengeance who called for all of these crimes to
Speaker 1: be committed because they're fun for her. Regardless of how
Speaker 1: we feel about Atreus or Thiistes, it's important that we're
Speaker 1: hearing from his sons, or one of them. Tantalus Junior
Speaker 1: has a very obvious purity. He just wants everyone to
Speaker 1: be back in their homeland and happy together. He can't
Speaker 1: see why Thiistes is so worried, so hesitant, when his
Speaker 1: brother is seeming to be, you know, happy to welcome
Speaker 1: him a home. Even with Thistes's words about, you know,
Speaker 1: the weight of ruling a kingdom, the appeal of a
Speaker 1: simple life, it's just it's not getting through. A child
Speaker 1: who's lived his life in exile when his father once
Speaker 1: held the throne, can't understand that nuance. He just sees
Speaker 1: the black and white power and riches are within his
Speaker 1: father's reach. His brother is offering them to him. Why
Speaker 1: wouldn't he jump at the chance to have all of
Speaker 1: that and family back? Thiastes, though he sees beyond it.
Speaker 1: If Atreus is asking him to rule alongside him, there's
Speaker 1: more to it. There is a trick of some kind, definitely,
Speaker 1: quote could my brother love me? Before that happens? The
Speaker 1: sea will rise to drench the stars, black night will
Speaker 1: light the earth. A loyal pact will sooner join fire
Speaker 1: to water, death to life, or wind to see No
Speaker 1: thisdes thinks. He does not believe that Atreus suddenly loves
Speaker 1: him again, that he's suddenly forgiving him for all, after
Speaker 1: all the hatred that he has been harboring for so long.
Speaker 1: Poor Tantalus Junior, though, he just he doesn't get it.
Speaker 1: He doesn't understand why his father is so afraid, or
Speaker 1: why he's so hesitant to believe his own brother, to
Speaker 1: trust that his brother has forgiven him and is offering
Speaker 1: him the kingdom out of love. What are you afraid of?
Speaker 1: He asks his father everything Thiestes tells him. What isn't
Speaker 1: there to be afraid of? Atreus holds the power, he adds, though,
Speaker 1: quote I fear nothing for myself now, But you sons
Speaker 1: make me fear. Atreus Ugh still not understanding, Tantalus Junior
Speaker 1: presses his father again, like, why are you so afraid?
Speaker 1: Quote When trouble comes, it is too late to be careful,
Speaker 1: let it go. But I declare to you, my son,
Speaker 1: just this one thing, I follow you. It was not
Speaker 1: my idea. And that is when Atreus returns to the
Speaker 1: stage and spots his brother and his nephews for the
Speaker 1: first time. He doesn't go to greet his brother and nephews,
Speaker 1: though not yet. First he's got a little speech to give,
Speaker 1: one that he doesn't want his brother to hear. The
Speaker 1: prey is fast caught in the toils. I spread both
Speaker 1: the sire himself and together with the sire, the offspring
Speaker 1: of his hated race. I see now on safe footing?
Speaker 1: Does my hatred fair? At last? Has thyestes come into
Speaker 1: my power? He has come, and the whole of him. Scarce?
Speaker 1: Can I control my spirit? Scarce? Does my rage admit restraint?
Speaker 1: So when the keen Umbrian hounds track out the prey,
Speaker 1: and held on a long leash with lowered muzzle, snuffs
Speaker 1: out the trail, while with faint scent, he perceives the
Speaker 1: bore afar obediently and with silent tongue, he scours the field.
Speaker 1: But when the game is nearer, with his whole strength
Speaker 1: of neck, he struggles loudly, protests against his master's loitering,
Speaker 1: and breaks away from his restraint. When rage sends blood,
Speaker 1: it cannot be concealed. Yet let it be concealed. See
Speaker 1: how is the care all unkempt covers his woeful face?
Speaker 1: How foul his beard hangs down? Now let me keep
Speaker 1: my promise, Diestes, It's so sweet to see my brother again.
Speaker 1: Give me the embrace that I've longed for. Let all
Speaker 1: our angry feelings pass away from this day, Let ties
Speaker 1: of blood and love be cherished, and let a cursed
Speaker 1: hatred vanish from our hearts. Atreus greets his brother Thiestes
Speaker 1: and Tantalus Junior in Polisthennes lovingly. Here's the last line
Speaker 1: of his greeting in the Emily Wilson translation, quote, how
Speaker 1: nice does see my brother come to my arms? I
Speaker 1: missed you. Whatever quarrels we had are over now. But
Speaker 1: of course that is after treated us the audience to
Speaker 1: that long and maniacal speech about the truth of his feelings,
Speaker 1: his desperate quest for vengeance. That was the speech I
Speaker 1: just read, ending with Atreus's greeting to thisdes. His words
Speaker 1: are fake enforced in either translation. Regardless, Atreus seems to
Speaker 1: have convinced his brother, at least a little bit, that
Speaker 1: he really does forgive him, that he really does want
Speaker 1: their relationship to be mended, for them to forget about
Speaker 1: all of their past fights, for them to just be
Speaker 1: brothers again. In Thisdes, Thiistes, when he has met with
Speaker 1: this behavior of Atreus, when his brother seems to just
Speaker 1: forgive him lovingly and welcome him back home, that's when
Speaker 1: Thiistes begins to blame himself. He admits to having done
Speaker 1: everything Atreus accused him of. He plotted with Atreus's wife
Speaker 1: Aeropay to steal the Golden Ram and thus steal the
Speaker 1: throne for himself. Quote. If you were not like this,
Speaker 1: I could have refuted all charges, But Atreus, I confess
Speaker 1: I committed all the crimes you thought I did, which again,
Speaker 1: I just is this really something worth the revenge plot
Speaker 1: that Atreus has in mind. I don't think that it
Speaker 1: is all the same. Thiistes doesn't know that his brother
Speaker 1: is plotting the worst crimes imaginable. He's just sorry, and
Speaker 1: it makes it all the more heartbreaking what we do
Speaker 1: know is coming for him, he says to a quote,
Speaker 1: a man who could hurt so good a brother seems
Speaker 1: a total scoundrel. He comes to Atreus as a suppliant,
Speaker 1: his arms wrapped around his brother's legs in a desperate
Speaker 1: plea for forgiveness. He's apologizing in the greatest way that
Speaker 1: he can, and God's Atreus plays his role well. Looking
Speaker 1: down at his brother, he tells him, quote, stop hanging
Speaker 1: onto my knees, stand up and come into my arms instead.
Speaker 1: And then he turns to his nephews, calling them in
Speaker 1: for a hug as well, a big group family hug
Speaker 1: after so long a part before he tells Thyestes, quote,
Speaker 1: be ready to take your share of your brother's kingdom.
Speaker 1: This is my greatest glory, returning my father's crown to
Speaker 1: my brother, safe and sound. Atreus is fucked up. This
Speaker 1: is fucked up. Well, it's so fucked up that Thiistes,
Speaker 1: who truly keeps seeming more and more sympathetic, tells Atreus
Speaker 1: that he's so thankful. He hoped that Atreus and his
Speaker 1: family are rewarded for his kindness, but that he doesn't
Speaker 1: he doesn't want the crown really, that it quote would
Speaker 1: not suit my rough appearance, and my hands are too
Speaker 1: tainted to take the scepter. I would prefer to be
Speaker 1: lost in the midst of the crowd. He doesn't even
Speaker 1: want it, but Atreus can't let that happen. He's got
Speaker 1: his plan and he's going to follow through with it.
Speaker 1: I don't imagine he gives any thought to who his
Speaker 1: brother might be now after all this time, whether he
Speaker 1: might be deserving of just a tiny bit of mercy,
Speaker 1: or if he does think that, even for a moment,
Speaker 1: we're not seeing it. The Atreus presses Thistes to take
Speaker 1: his part of the kingdom that's being offered, even when
Speaker 1: Thiistes says again that he doesn't want it, that he's
Speaker 1: going to reject Atrius's offer. He only relents when Atreus
Speaker 1: says that if Thiistes doesn't take half of the kingdom,
Speaker 1: he will give up his half too, and that, of course,
Speaker 1: isn't what Thiistes wants. It's their family's kingdom. He can't
Speaker 1: let Atrias give it up entirely, so finally he does
Speaker 1: accept what Atreus is offering with one condition quote, I
Speaker 1: will bear the name of kingship, but you will have
Speaker 1: the law, the army, and myself. Thiistes is just so
Speaker 1: happy to be welcomed home by his brother after so
Speaker 1: long in exile and away from his family and their kingdom.
Speaker 1: He doesn't want power, He just wants to be home.
Speaker 1: Uh uh Seneca, Seneca, Seneca, Obviously that end was the
Speaker 1: quote right, just from my older translation. But how are
Speaker 1: your plays so damn good? Seneca? It's so interesting to
Speaker 1: read you know, both this and his Medea, and like
Speaker 1: see how they revolve entirely and so specifically, like around
Speaker 1: this you know, very old and very Greek myth or
Speaker 1: these two myths. And yet how Seneca manages to infuse
Speaker 1: his plays with so much Rome. He has so much
Speaker 1: to say about the empire, imperialism broadly, the actions of
Speaker 1: the Roman world, and yet this play is still entirely Greek,
Speaker 1: it is still set there in that you know, that
Speaker 1: ancient mythological world, still revolving around a family that is
Speaker 1: so iconically Greek, that the many who are just you know,
Speaker 1: children in this play are gonna go on to become
Speaker 1: two of the biggest names in the Trojan War. He
Speaker 1: even makes kind of just a little bit like interested
Speaker 1: in learning more about Stoicism because of how it might
Speaker 1: be into this, like and that's a real feat. Another
Speaker 1: line that really stood out to me, though, in Thiestes's
Speaker 1: speeches is this passing comment he made about whether there
Speaker 1: are even gods. In his very first speech, talking about
Speaker 1: returning home to his ancestral gods, he adds a little
Speaker 1: note quote if there are really gods, and Modeya said
Speaker 1: something similar in her play. It reminds me of just,
Speaker 1: you know, how differently Rome understood their gods compared to
Speaker 1: the Greeks, even when those gods often like align completely
Speaker 1: in terms of their characters, Like their religions and practices
Speaker 1: were very different. The Greeks have much more hands on deities,
Speaker 1: like they're a little more like real and practical, like
Speaker 1: beings you could actually encounter, rather than you know, the
Speaker 1: more conceptual idea of the divine. So that these two
Speaker 1: people characters who have and will be so wronged and
Speaker 1: yet have such strong connections to the divine in their
Speaker 1: family that they question whether there are even gods. It
Speaker 1: just really stands out if anyone's going to question divinity,
Speaker 1: or at least like how the divine actually applies to humanity,
Speaker 1: whether they're even there at all. It would be these two,
Speaker 1: because well, next week, Thyestes' entire life is going to
Speaker 1: blow up in the most horrific of ways. This is
Speaker 1: going to make Seneca's Medea look like the story of
Speaker 1: a happy family, or at least a family where the
Speaker 1: dead children don't get eaten anyway, Happy spooky season. I
Speaker 1: fucking love coming up with this content in October. It's
Speaker 1: so fun and dark and fucked up. And if you
Speaker 1: are listening on Spotify, stay tuned. At the end, I've
Speaker 1: got a poll that I came up with at the
Speaker 1: last minute that I just think is like, uh, really
Speaker 1: ridiculous and funny, and I want to hear what you
Speaker 1: guys have to say about this. Okay, As always, let's
Speaker 1: end with the reading of a five star review from
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, because I want to because you guys are
Speaker 1: so amazing and you leave these for me, and I
Speaker 1: want you to do that more. This one comes from
Speaker 1: a user in the States with a truly delightful user
Speaker 1: name Monsieur Bouya, who's written a truly flattering review like
Speaker 1: this is just like everything that my perpetually suffering from
Speaker 1: imposter syndrome self needed to read and probably needs to
Speaker 1: read like every day, I might just print it out.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Live Baby. Live has developed the pre
Speaker 1: emited podcast on ancient mythology out there. Her continual self
Speaker 1: improvement in spreading, awareness of context, translations, and sources, combined
Speaker 1: with her format variety from conversations to direct readings, has
Speaker 1: created a wonderful example of what is possible for other creators.
Speaker 1: While Live is focused on Greece, I hope others take
Speaker 1: up the torch to teach other stories from around the
Speaker 1: world in such a thoughtful and interesting way, Like for real,
Speaker 1: that might be the nicest review, Like I love I
Speaker 1: love how much everyone you know says to such kind
Speaker 1: things and these and they all mean the world to me.
Speaker 1: But from a personal perspective of like feeling like I've
Speaker 1: grown this way and like I'm doing this thing having
Speaker 1: others say it is like really nice. Okay. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about mis Baby's written and produced by me Live Albert MICHAELA.
Speaker 1: Smith is the hermes to my Olympians. She actually got
Speaker 1: called that recently did an event and somebody called it
Speaker 1: that and Mikaela lost it and it was really entertaining
Speaker 1: in a true joy for me. She's also the assistant producer.
Speaker 1: The podcast is hosted and monetized by iHeartMedia. Listen on
Speaker 1: Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Help me continue
Speaker 1: bringing you the world of Greek mythology and the Ancient
Speaker 1: Mediterranean by becoming a patron where you get bonus episodes
Speaker 1: and more. Visit patreon dot com, slash myts baby, or
Speaker 1: click the link in this episode's description. I am live
Speaker 1: and I love this shit. Honestly like the darker and
Speaker 1: the more disgusting, the better.