Speaker 1: Oh, Hi, Hello, welcome. This is Let's talk about Myth's baby,
Speaker 1: and I am that host of yours live here with
Speaker 1: yet another conversation episode. I know I say this all
Speaker 1: the time, but this is so the coolest part of
Speaker 1: my job. I mean, all of it is cool, let's
Speaker 1: be honest, but the fact that I get these super
Speaker 1: smart and academic nerds coming on the show to share
Speaker 1: their studies and their passions and their knowledge the things
Speaker 1: they're so incredibly knowledgeable on and just want to share
Speaker 1: with others, I'm just so fucking grateful that not only
Speaker 1: do you listeners want to hear this stuff, these like
Speaker 1: heavy and fascinating episodes in these deeply specific topics, but
Speaker 1: also that I have so many incredible people that want
Speaker 1: to come on the show. Fuck, it's cool. In fact,
Speaker 1: it's so cool that I often have so so many
Speaker 1: guests to talk to, so many that I can't even
Speaker 1: fit them on the show for sometimes even months after
Speaker 1: I record, which is what is the case here. So
Speaker 1: I spoke with David Wright way back in maybe October,
Speaker 1: like it was really close to spooky season, but too
Speaker 1: late to have it actually air during the spookiest of seasons.
Speaker 1: But this episode was so much fun to record. I mean,
Speaker 1: as always, but still it was because while we talked
Speaker 1: about monsters, monsters of Greek myth, monster theory as a theory,
Speaker 1: and so much more. It's one of my more freewheeling
Speaker 1: conversations because you all just know how much I can
Speaker 1: go off when we're talking broad mythological topics like this.
Speaker 1: It's so funny to hear the difference when an academic
Speaker 1: is sharing something I'm totally unaware of versus something I
Speaker 1: know a lot about like this. What a time. But also, David,
Speaker 1: I just had loads of fun chatting about this. There's
Speaker 1: so much to say about these monsters and how they
Speaker 1: became what they are in the history of Greek myth,
Speaker 1: but also the idea of this monster theory as a concept.
Speaker 1: It's all super intriguing. As always, Honestly, this is just
Speaker 1: so much fucking fun, and I'm thrilled to finally finally
Speaker 1: share it with you. So many months later. I'm doing
Speaker 1: something similar right now, actually recording a load of episodes,
Speaker 1: so many that I'll have months and months worth of conversations.
Speaker 1: It's so fucking fun. But I digress again. In today's episode,
Speaker 1: Dave and I spoke about the best of Greek mythology's monsters,
Speaker 1: including obviously Medusa, lots of Medusa because I am me.
Speaker 1: But also we talked about my beloved hecaton Kyrie and
Speaker 1: the Gigantomicy, among other things. Specifically, we were looking at
Speaker 1: this monster theory, lots of interesting insights to the invention
Speaker 1: of these monsters, where the ideas came from, and what
Speaker 1: they can say about the humans who developed them. Also,
Speaker 1: we just had a great chat about how cool and
Speaker 1: exciting these creatures often are, because I mean, Greek mythological
Speaker 1: monsters are amazing. So sit back and enjoy insights into
Speaker 1: these fascinating and insightful creatures of myth Conversations the many
Speaker 1: Faces of Monsters monster theory with David J. Wright. One
Speaker 1: thing I've learned lately is just the way that the
Speaker 1: Greeks put snakes into their myths is super interesting. Oh
Speaker 1: I'm so, And that's kind of like what partially got
Speaker 1: me into like this research avenue. It's just sort of
Speaker 1: like snakes can be very negative, like I think, you know,
Speaker 1: and I feel like students that immediately, oh, yeah, like
Speaker 1: snakes are bad because of the Bible, you know, But
Speaker 1: like actually their time when snakes are very positive and
Speaker 1: they sort of like protect your figures and they are
Speaker 1: much more like well, and I really just appreciate the
Speaker 1: way that they I mean, and I guess most of
Speaker 1: these you know, And now maybe we're just in this
Speaker 1: episode and I'll use this all, but because I recently
Speaker 1: did an episode on like Typhon, Typheus whatever and Kidnap,
Speaker 1: and their use of snakes is so fascinating and like
Speaker 1: they are technically kind of villains, Like there is that
Speaker 1: whole moment where Typhon is definitely a villain, but ultimately
Speaker 1: they're just sort of like exists to be the parents
Speaker 1: of other monsters. But the way they use snakes is
Speaker 1: fascinating to me. There's so many different versions of Typhon,
Speaker 1: but all of them are just like so many snakes.
Speaker 1: And sometimes it's like he has snakes for fingers or
Speaker 1: like snakes just growing off of his shoulders and like
Speaker 1: this very wild use of it that I'm so curious about.
Speaker 1: And yeah, and like Cerberus has snakes sometimes too, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like a snake mane. Yeah, that's super weird. When Cerberus
Speaker 1: is like he's got a mane and it's snakes and
Speaker 1: it's the snakes. I think there's Affician too that like,
Speaker 1: you know, Pausanius loves to sort of be like that's
Speaker 1: all the myth and that's crazy talk or whatever, like
Speaker 1: I think there's like I think it's Pausanius and says like, actually, Cerberus,
Speaker 1: there's a giant snakes. There's a which like makes sense, right,
Speaker 1: and like, okay, yeah, I like, I mean Pausanius. I
Speaker 1: haven't read a ton of Pausanius, but I've read um
Speaker 1: the Life of Theseus And no, that's Plutarch. What am
Speaker 1: I talking about the way They're very similar in that
Speaker 1: treatment of it. They both are rationalizers exactly of something
Speaker 1: that's like explicitly myth. Like I love the Plutarch's Theseus
Speaker 1: where it's literally it's like, oh, these are the things
Speaker 1: that I believe, like, but these are the things that
Speaker 1: I think are fake. And he really tries to piece
Speaker 1: out like what's real about Theseus versus myth even though ultimately,
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously all thess is a myth, but even
Speaker 1: still the stuff he decides is realistic is still like absurd,
Speaker 1: And you're like, yeah, okay, I don't totally know what
Speaker 1: how you're like picking and choosing out of these things.
Speaker 1: But sure, yeah, yeah, I think scholars like him because
Speaker 1: he's almost like rational, but sometimes he doesn't believes the
Speaker 1: most ridiculous things. Yeah yeah, absolutely, Yeah. Pasans is pretty
Speaker 1: similar too. Yeah, I the only thing I try to
Speaker 1: think of I've thought of him recently, and I think
Speaker 1: it might even have just been I've tried to um
Speaker 1: figure out where the like myth of Minthy comes from,
Speaker 1: like the nymph who was transformed into Mint, because you know,
Speaker 1: usually it's that she, like Hades had an affair with her,
Speaker 1: so Persephone or maybe a Demeter turned her into Mint.
Speaker 1: And I'm pretty sure that there's only like a couple
Speaker 1: references to her, and I'm pretty sure one of them
Speaker 1: is Postanias. So it's just like where she became this
Speaker 1: big myth specifically because she's a foil to Hades and Persephone.
Speaker 1: So in all the the things now that retell their relationship,
Speaker 1: they always use Minty as this like this foil or
Speaker 1: this like person you know who's like into Hades and
Speaker 1: therefore is a problem or what have you. But ultimately,
Speaker 1: like the myths of her are like Postanias saying something
Speaker 1: like there's this mountain in I think Arcadia or a
Speaker 1: Chaa or something where where there's mint, and they say
Speaker 1: it was a nymph, and then somehow that's become like
Speaker 1: this epic like myth about a woman who was transformed
Speaker 1: into mint, and ultimately it's like a way to explain
Speaker 1: a region or something. Right, now, that's really interesting. It
Speaker 1: makes you think too, Like Blake can't brand his name though,
Speaker 1: of course an example, but like he does all these
Speaker 1: sort of like helotistic writer who does like poems about
Speaker 1: like potions and things like that, and often sort of
Speaker 1: like uses like metaphorical names or things like I seen
Speaker 1: your hammer him saying oh, yeah, and you mix nymphs
Speaker 1: in which is like I think he means nint um hm,
Speaker 1: So that's really yeah actually yeah. Well, and in the
Speaker 1: case of that nymph, I think the whole point is
Speaker 1: to just explain the use of mint in covering up
Speaker 1: the smell of decay, like for the dead, and so
Speaker 1: in order to account for the fact that they used mint,
Speaker 1: you know, in like death practices, they would then say like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's because the mint is associated with the underworld. Because
Speaker 1: of this nymphod is transformed into mint, right, So it's
Speaker 1: just interesting to track those little ones. Yeah. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: ostensibly we're here to talk about monsters there right with Typhon,
Speaker 1: and then we kind of like no, but I love that,
Speaker 1: you know, I love the transition there. Yeah, oh, I know.
Speaker 1: I mean I just love talking about mythology. Clearly, I
Speaker 1: do it literally all the time, and I'm still excited
Speaker 1: about it all the time. Yeah. Same. I feel like
Speaker 1: I've just been studying this for a long time and
Speaker 1: I don't get bored with it. Yeah. Yeah, So do
Speaker 1: you primarily teach myth or I'm kind of all over
Speaker 1: the place, like actually, it's funny. I never took one
Speaker 1: myth class in high school or college or grad school
Speaker 1: and then but I kind of got into myth through
Speaker 1: like studying Latin and Greek literature. And remember the first
Speaker 1: time I to teach a myth class, I'm like, oh
Speaker 1: my God, like obviously know how to do this. I've
Speaker 1: like written insertation on you know, but like how do
Speaker 1: you teach myth? Though? But I've been doing it. I've
Speaker 1: actually my second myth myth class now, but it's it's
Speaker 1: definitely one of my favorite classes to teach. I think
Speaker 1: because you have the myth heads who come in, Which
Speaker 1: which are blessing and the curse some ways. But there's
Speaker 1: just I just think it's so fascinating. I could use
Speaker 1: myth talk about sewny different topics. You talk about gender,
Speaker 1: you could Useth to talk about philosophy, he to talk
Speaker 1: about race, you talk about um, you know, trauma. It's
Speaker 1: just it's just so fascinating. So yeah, yeah, that's love
Speaker 1: teaching math. It's interesting. I bet you teaching it like
Speaker 1: that is so similar to what I experience with my listeners,
Speaker 1: except that they're so much more there. You were so
Speaker 1: much more accessible to them, because the thing I face
Speaker 1: most is people getting confused by all the variations or like,
Speaker 1: you know, the things you're you've learned from pop culture
Speaker 1: versus the truth of the myths, you know, or what
Speaker 1: actually exists in the ancient sources. Yeah, I definitely get
Speaker 1: that a lot. But it's kind of interesting where like
Speaker 1: I'll have some students coming in I think, who like
Speaker 1: are interesting to like I want to know about the
Speaker 1: real versions. Some of them already kind of gig keeper
Speaker 1: sort of like, yeah, well, like myths do shift over time,
Speaker 1: and there were like there's this thing as the true version,
Speaker 1: you know, of of Odysseus. There's actually so many different variants.
Speaker 1: It's all about like people in power trying to say, oh,
Speaker 1: this is the variant that I want, and there's usually
Speaker 1: like some sort of social political reason why they want that,
Speaker 1: and then like you know, you come to like the
Speaker 1: medieval Renaissance modern era too, where you have like these
Speaker 1: myths they're constantly changing. But I think it's kind of
Speaker 1: funny when people get mad but like oh yeah, like
Speaker 1: this modern person is changing the myth. I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: it's always been changing. But there are sometimes when people
Speaker 1: do change in their problematic way too, Like if you
Speaker 1: take the myth of Persephonie and Hades and try and
Speaker 1: fashion it as a love story or like, yeah, you
Speaker 1: can change it, but then you're still kind of have
Speaker 1: the goledge that, like the orgin of Smith is about violence.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of tricky when I have scenes come
Speaker 1: in being like Hades was actually a great guy who
Speaker 1: who loved his wife. I'm like, oh, we gonna we
Speaker 1: gotta talk about that. Yeah, I know, I have. I
Speaker 1: have huge respect for one adaptation of Hades and Persephone,
Speaker 1: and that's Laura Olympus because I think she's doing it
Speaker 1: the right way. Like I think she's completely removed the
Speaker 1: abduction part and just like taking these two characters and
Speaker 1: made them different. And she treats Demeter well in a
Speaker 1: way that a lot of adaptations love to demonize Demeter
Speaker 1: and make Hades this like super loving guy. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't know what you think you're doing here, but
Speaker 1: I hate it, Like I hate it a lot. It's
Speaker 1: kind of like an informal misogyny off I sort of
Speaker 1: like Demeter like the you know, the overbearing mother. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's bizarre, but yeah, I mean I faced the
Speaker 1: original myth a lot people. Those people coming at me
Speaker 1: because I you know, I like Medusa or something. Usually
Speaker 1: that's all online and not about my podcast. But I
Speaker 1: do love the people who love to scream about the
Speaker 1: original myth of Medusa and how yeah that was one
Speaker 1: of them too. And maybe it's the factory nerves covering later.
Speaker 1: But I had students coming to me because I feel
Speaker 1: like I kind of know some of the Tumbler stuff
Speaker 1: just from being on Twitter. I wish I were on Tumbler. Tumbler,
Speaker 1: I'm still overwhelmed by One of these days, maybe I'll
Speaker 1: get into it. But as soon as coming saying that
Speaker 1: Athena transform Medusa to protect her, and I kept like
Speaker 1: where this is coming from? Is there actually an ancient thing?
Speaker 1: And it's from Dumbler. It's from Tumbler. Absolutely, I get
Speaker 1: it all the time, and like, I like the idea
Speaker 1: behind it. I mean, it all relies on Aubd's version entirely, right, which, like, fine,
Speaker 1: I like Auby's version. Yeah. Um. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: like I mean, I like the idea behind this idea
Speaker 1: that Athena was actually being like a good woman, you know,
Speaker 1: but it's what we wants so hard to make her
Speaker 1: the good woman, you know. We really want Athena not
Speaker 1: to be some sort of patriarch, some upholder of the patriarchy,
Speaker 1: you know, that's the thing and it but it's like,
Speaker 1: even even if she didn't protect her, she's still upholding
Speaker 1: the patriarchy, because that should not be a form of
Speaker 1: protection like that, you know, that's dark. Um. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: have people bringing that to me a lot, and I
Speaker 1: try to, like very kindly point out the issues with it,
Speaker 1: and I know it's well intentioned, but but also it's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know Medusa's so interesting without having to invent
Speaker 1: Tumblr memes about her like change things, and there are
Speaker 1: good and better you know, adaptations of modern feminist adaptations
Speaker 1: of the well exactly and and the thing about it,
Speaker 1: I mean, and obviously go about Medusa forever. That's she's
Speaker 1: kind of my thing. But even if you go back
Speaker 1: back to like he see it, he's not saying that
Speaker 1: she's some evil monster at all. He doesn't even remotely
Speaker 1: imply that. And then you know, basically he si it
Speaker 1: has what I take as as Medusa, And you know
Speaker 1: I don't love he see it because he did not
Speaker 1: love women. Um. I don't know if you've heard no, yeah,
Speaker 1: as soon it's like, wow, it's super misogynistic. Yep, that's
Speaker 1: welcome to heci it. Oh my god, Pandora in works
Speaker 1: and days it will always blow my mind, like the
Speaker 1: way he goes off anyway. Um, but yeah, no, I
Speaker 1: mean even that version of Medusa, like buy a you know,
Speaker 1: a source that is notably misogynistum is still kind to her.
Speaker 1: It's literally like, yeah, she was a gorgon, doesn't define
Speaker 1: what that is. You know, she had a bad fate,
Speaker 1: Like it's it's actually kinder, so it's just fascinating to me,
Speaker 1: the whole Medusa. Right. Yeah, So, speaking of monsters, I
Speaker 1: don't know anything about monster theory. What is it? I mean,
Speaker 1: I can clearly keep talking about myth generally too, but
Speaker 1: um yeah, what is what is the theory behind it?
Speaker 1: I will read the thing that you said to me
Speaker 1: as well, but I'm glad to just have you talking
Speaker 1: to me because that's easier. Sure. Yeah, and I kind
Speaker 1: of give a brief overview of it, like yeah, ever
Speaker 1: whenever I give like my talk on it's kind of
Speaker 1: funny because I like, so I wrote a dissertation that
Speaker 1: I'm turning into a book on the giants in Greek
Speaker 1: and Roman mythology. Classicists are kind of historically have been
Speaker 1: very averse to theory, like oh theory, like but it's
Speaker 1: kind of awful if that's why I disciplined the soap
Speaker 1: stuff in the past for seven years. But yeah, a
Speaker 1: version of theory is one of them. And I kind
Speaker 1: of wanted to be like not like the other classicists,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, I'm writing dissertation on monsters. I
Speaker 1: should really like, I heard this thing called monster theory.
Speaker 1: I should check it out. And actually it didn't really
Speaker 1: incorporate into my disc But I think it's gonna you know,
Speaker 1: I just it will work its way into my whatever
Speaker 1: I turn my digistation into UM. But basically some idea
Speaker 1: that like monsters are some sort of like our reflection
Speaker 1: of some sort of culture ural anxiety or even desire
Speaker 1: or fantasy. Uh. Mainly this is evening more more of
Speaker 1: the anxiety portion of it. Like to think of the
Speaker 1: Latin word Monstroom's later the word monstrare to show or
Speaker 1: the verb more to Warrens. So something about like advising
Speaker 1: and warning with them, um, And it's the idea that
Speaker 1: they're like. So it basically he has these different thesees
Speaker 1: like the first these these the monsters a cultural body.
Speaker 1: Second thesis is that the monster always escapes. Think about
Speaker 1: like in movies, right, how there's always a sequel, the
Speaker 1: monster always comes back. And like you can bring that
Speaker 1: to um like mythology where you have like cimetrist in
Speaker 1: the Giants, and but the giants are in a a different
Speaker 1: eneration of the Titans or the Titans monsters. I mean
Speaker 1: they kind of can't really kind of see what they are,
Speaker 1: but they're kind of like, you know, part of that
Speaker 1: system of opposite diseases order. But then Typhon is also
Speaker 1: part of that too, So alvise enerations of these monsters
Speaker 1: kind of keep coming back, this idea that these these
Speaker 1: cultural fears kind of keep coming back, that sometimes they
Speaker 1: sort of shift. Um, So it's the idea that like
Speaker 1: the monsters can sort of reflect something about society. So
Speaker 1: we have like so many female monsters, right, and you see, okay,
Speaker 1: like what what what is the society saying? And when
Speaker 1: when you make a woman you know, have snake for
Speaker 1: hair and she can turn you to Stowe, Like what's
Speaker 1: that say about this? So yeah, there's always a different
Speaker 1: sort of idea that like the monster is other, it
Speaker 1: sort of often reflects some sort of marginalized, uh group
Speaker 1: in society. So he's so the female monster with say
Speaker 1: the Sirens or with Medusa, but then obviously have male
Speaker 1: monsters too. Out of the Cyclops, you can kind of
Speaker 1: see him as like he's the uncivilized and scare quotes,
Speaker 1: you know, foreign other who doesn't really like follow the
Speaker 1: rules of society. Actually, there's a great article coming out
Speaker 1: by by Jackie Murray that she argues the whole racistem
Speaker 1: going on in the Odyssey where like basically, Um, the
Speaker 1: Cyclops what is he? He's a shepherd and what does
Speaker 1: what does he's the slaves back home? What are they shepherds? Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you may as the shepherd, and so you kind
Speaker 1: of see that, like it's just telling the story of
Speaker 1: the Cyclopheric always a scary shepherd who's gonna come and
Speaker 1: eat us all. And this is this is why we
Speaker 1: enslave these people, you know, back home. So I sort
Speaker 1: of like can kind of see this is how the
Speaker 1: cyclophs this emanation or the sort of resentation of like
Speaker 1: the fear of the people they enslaved back home. That's
Speaker 1: really interesting. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um.
Speaker 1: I was talking to Jewel Christians in the other day
Speaker 1: for the show too, when talking about that kind of
Speaker 1: thing and all the issues of the Odyssey and the
Speaker 1: fear of other and fear of foreigners and all of
Speaker 1: that that comes in. That's yeah, fascinating. Um, So I would,
Speaker 1: I mean, I want to hear more about this in general,
Speaker 1: but also just the giants alone. So the giants are
Speaker 1: fascinating to me. And they they're so hard to find
Speaker 1: sourcing on, you know, like I tried to cover the
Speaker 1: gigantomicchy and and like, you know, all we really have
Speaker 1: that survives is like a Polydorus and he well pseudo Polydorus,
Speaker 1: and he's just so brief, like there's just nothing in there.
Speaker 1: So I'm so curious, I mean about the giants in general. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right, because having right on this like it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's hard to find. And I always started drawn to
Speaker 1: them because they know a lot in Latin poetry. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I definitely kind of have a whole theory about that.
Speaker 1: But you're right, they're mentioned, he see it, but there's
Speaker 1: like you get the titanomicy, we get the typhonomickey, but
Speaker 1: there's no gigantomicy. But we get a lot of art,
Speaker 1: like a lot of archaic art does have the gigantomickey.
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by the way giants look in Greek and
Speaker 1: Roman art generally, like an early Greek art, they're either
Speaker 1: heroic nudes or their hoplights. They're sort of the heavily
Speaker 1: armed soldiers that kind of became emblematic of the Polis
Speaker 1: and the Arcadic period and classical periods, where in some
Speaker 1: way that kind of makes them all look the same,
Speaker 1: where that they all the peace are sort of distinct.
Speaker 1: They have their own like sort of separate, like distinct characteristics.
Speaker 1: For all. The giants are kind of these like these
Speaker 1: monsterous figure there's sill kind of human in some ways.
Speaker 1: But there's a shift in like the fourth and third
Speaker 1: third century where they get snake legs uman love that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean who doesn't again speaking of snakes and complicated
Speaker 1: you know, significance that that snakes can have. And in
Speaker 1: the Caroman world, so there's an interesting shift in the
Speaker 1: giants appearance. But like, yeah, we get snippets, like obviously
Speaker 1: Poldars is like a full version of it, but like
Speaker 1: you get references to it in in Greek tragedy and
Speaker 1: things like that. But yeah, it's you're not until the
Speaker 1: Polydorus and then like in Latin poetry, just kind of
Speaker 1: get you don't really get the whole. I meant the
Speaker 1: story in very brief moments, but like all a sort
Speaker 1: of giganto mockic imagery m hm. But what I'm sort
Speaker 1: of fascinated by is like kind of in the archaic
Speaker 1: Greek period and afterwards it kind of has the significance
Speaker 1: of like that is what's called often saved. But I
Speaker 1: think they kind of overstated, is that like the gigantomakey
Speaker 1: is basically order versus chaos, like the Lympians bringing order
Speaker 1: to casts and then like sort of transferably, I like
Speaker 1: this is like Greeks bringing order or you know over
Speaker 1: you know, pushing order upon barbarians, and like the giants
Speaker 1: are the Persians or the giants later are the Celts
Speaker 1: who are invading Europe and the fourth, third, second centuries BC.
Speaker 1: And there's some evidence to suggest that in some of
Speaker 1: the texts here and there, but there are sometimes like
Speaker 1: say um indibrities ion remember like the the the Athenian
Speaker 1: Chorus goes to the Temple of Delphi and they see
Speaker 1: the giants on the temple there, and what does that mean?
Speaker 1: They're like when they're looking at the giants, and they
Speaker 1: actually can mean civil strife sometimes when an internal conflict
Speaker 1: as opposed to an external one. We're talking about like
Speaker 1: sort of like a monster or fucking sort of cultural anxiety,
Speaker 1: you kind of easily see them representing like, yeah, a
Speaker 1: fear of civil conflict. And then it kind of makes
Speaker 1: sense by the Romans would would be into them, because
Speaker 1: then the per century BC is just like civil war. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the Romans did have a lot of that they did.
Speaker 1: It's running out people. I try to make them sort
Speaker 1: of like the Romans the symbols of the bringer of order,
Speaker 1: Like you guys are always fighting each other. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: if it wasn't Civil Wars, it was the Punic Wars,
Speaker 1: and like they weren't fighting each other there, but they're
Speaker 1: still they don't look good, you know, like Rome. I
Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah, Rome, I'm not in Rome a lot,
Speaker 1: you know, in my studying, I guess for this podcast,
Speaker 1: but every time I come up with something or find something,
Speaker 1: it's it's constantly just it's the differences between the way
Speaker 1: the Romans, you know, told stories and things versus the
Speaker 1: Greeks is really fascinating to me. Um I was looking
Speaker 1: at today. I was just editing an episode about witches
Speaker 1: in in classical myth generally and Roman and um I
Speaker 1: talked to Maxwell Paul. I don't know him on Twitter
Speaker 1: so much Twitter, Um, but there was a lot of
Speaker 1: Roman there because he studies one of them. And it's
Speaker 1: just so interesting because the Roman witches versus Greek witches
Speaker 1: are very like to me, at least they seem very
Speaker 1: They are like the way the Romans worried about their
Speaker 1: wives and like what their wives could do to them,
Speaker 1: versus Greek witches, which actually feel supernatural and all like
Speaker 1: in a much more organic kind of way. I guess,
Speaker 1: you know, Sarcy versus like some woman who's gonna you know,
Speaker 1: ensnare you in an inn? It just feels very different. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the giants too have always interested me because I love uh,
Speaker 1: you know how I think for the most part, it
Speaker 1: all is supposed to have taken place like in Italy,
Speaker 1: right or in Sicily, and specifically actually the the vocation
Speaker 1: of Jackamtey, like you know, as miss Chains, like sometimes
Speaker 1: it's in Greece in Italy, but I think like the
Speaker 1: Roman poet has taken advantage of like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: our peninsula is sort of war torn, especially sometimes in
Speaker 1: Sicily too, and you know, certain parts of the of
Speaker 1: the Civil War in the in the thirties BC was
Speaker 1: taking place around there. So I think they're kind of
Speaker 1: very intentional of like, oh, we're going to take advantage
Speaker 1: of the fact that it takes place here because you know,
Speaker 1: it's representing our civil conflict. That makes sense, see, And
Speaker 1: I like it as a way to understand volcanoes. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think also it is like you know, you know,
Speaker 1: just can be fear of natural disasters. Yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: I always love, is just the idea that like wherever
Speaker 1: they buried them just happened to be. Oh well, you
Speaker 1: know that that volcano is just that happens to be
Speaker 1: where Zeus buried the giant. And you know, it's just
Speaker 1: a little angry right now. And there's overlapped with them
Speaker 1: as civil strife too, because like there's the tradition that
Speaker 1: Mount Etna was you know, spurting lava or smoke or
Speaker 1: whatever when Julius Caesar or right before Julius Caesar was assassinated.
Speaker 1: We should bring about the whole series of civil complicate
Speaker 1: the ideas like Typhen sometimes it's Typhen under there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then sometimes there's giants in Calais. I think it's
Speaker 1: like there's three different people, three different isn't priarious? I guess, yeah,
Speaker 1: that makes sense. Well, that's also Briarius is on the
Speaker 1: side of the Titans, and he see it. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: he's in the side of the US. And he said,
Speaker 1: quban the side of the Titans given his birth and giving.
Speaker 1: But because the hecaton Kyries, which is my favorite word.
Speaker 1: Don't even know if I say it right, but it's
Speaker 1: the all time best word in Greek myth. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: they I mean the reason, I well, from what I
Speaker 1: see of how they side with Zeus is because they
Speaker 1: kept getting imprisoned by everybody else, right, because you know,
Speaker 1: Uranus imprisoned them, and then as soon as Chronos you know,
Speaker 1: did away with him, he freed them and then imprisoned
Speaker 1: them again because he was also an asshole. Um. And
Speaker 1: then so the idea is that, like I think Zeus
Speaker 1: freed them, and then he freed them and then gave
Speaker 1: them the privilege of guarding the underworld, and so therefore
Speaker 1: Tartarus rather and so they were still tucked away and
Speaker 1: nobody could see them, but somehow they were free or
Speaker 1: than they were on Yeah, he like he freed them,
Speaker 1: and like he gets into the privilege if it really
Speaker 1: was a way of like keeping them far away, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like you're not in prison and Tartarus, you get
Speaker 1: to guard Tartarus. Isn't that nice? I'm so much nicer
Speaker 1: of a ruler. And then like what I think is
Speaker 1: interesting too, is like, because I'm also interested in thetis,
Speaker 1: I'm coating a volume on on Thetis, and she has
Speaker 1: the power to summon Briarius slash yeah, and she uses
Speaker 1: it when like Zeus's kids are you know, rebelling against him,
Speaker 1: so again you have to sort of civil strife thing.
Speaker 1: But he again he kind of comes to sort of
Speaker 1: watchdog for Sus. But then Thetis is the one who
Speaker 1: can summon him, which is really interesting. Yeah, I'd never
Speaker 1: thought of that connection. I tried to cover that coup.
Speaker 1: Of course, there's so little sourcing on it too, but
Speaker 1: it was interesting to cover and just the idea that, yeah,
Speaker 1: that like that's sort of what gained her favor for
Speaker 1: then to use that favor in the Iliad, And oh
Speaker 1: my god. It's also so I mean, the interconnection between
Speaker 1: some of these stories, even though you know that they
Speaker 1: were so disparate in terms of like when they were
Speaker 1: written and developed and all of these things. So it's
Speaker 1: just so extra interesting. Um, Briarius appears in my new
Speaker 1: cocktail book that's coming out. Oh, I think I saw
Speaker 1: a tweet about that, So I'm excited. As a monster's
Speaker 1: person I mentioned in particular too, So I'll maybe I'll
Speaker 1: think become a new cocktail. We'll see it's it's got
Speaker 1: ipa in it. Actually, Oh really, now you said that.
Speaker 1: There you go, so you might like Briarius's Brew that's
Speaker 1: what it's called. I just had to use had defined
Speaker 1: a reason to repeatedly use the word heckaton kyrie in
Speaker 1: a book about cocktails. No, that's awesome. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: think he's interesting because like there's definitely a version where
Speaker 1: he's in the whole who's under seems with them like
Speaker 1: a debate, and like it sometimes it's type in, sometimes
Speaker 1: it's in callous, and then I think there's I think
Speaker 1: it's coolemicus book it says, okay, it's more it's more
Speaker 1: obscure to have him under there, that's the more obscure.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think he's on the side of the Olympians,
Speaker 1: and he say said, it makes sense because like this
Speaker 1: just like kind of freeze him or whatever. But there
Speaker 1: is a version where he's on the side side of
Speaker 1: the Titans, and like Virgil kind of plays with all
Speaker 1: his expectations in it, because there's a passage in the
Speaker 1: Eneid where Enius is compared to Briarius slash Gion. And
Speaker 1: it's interesting because you think, like, oh, he's gonna be
Speaker 1: like Barius because Brearius gans on the side of the
Speaker 1: Olympians were the good guys. Enius is the good guy,
Speaker 1: so like therefore he's going to be associated with the
Speaker 1: Olympian order. But as you're reading the simile, it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: and then you have a Gion, you know, going against
Speaker 1: the lightning of Zoos. So he actually goes with the
Speaker 1: the the more like hipster not that well known version
Speaker 1: where Agion is on the side of the Titans, and
Speaker 1: I think like Virgils were kind of playing without him,
Speaker 1: Like I think he's you know, trying to make Endias
Speaker 1: out to be not that kind of a guy, because
Speaker 1: this is when Enias goes out his rage killing spree. Um.
Speaker 1: I think because like the because of the titanomic in
Speaker 1: the Jacketama, he getting played with time or like they
Speaker 1: kind of like it becomes like kind of just like
Speaker 1: just throw all the monsters in there, you know. Sometimes
Speaker 1: actually the gorgan is in the Gigantomicy, they'll they'll throw
Speaker 1: in the gorgon for frenzies, you know. I think, because
Speaker 1: like there are all these different versions of it kind
Speaker 1: of really fits into like a civil conflict where sometimes
Speaker 1: in a civil conflict. It's hard to tell who's on
Speaker 1: whose side in a Roman civil war, especially when you
Speaker 1: have people changing sides all the time. M Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: really interesting. I also do love the idea of sometimes,
Speaker 1: and I think it's a lot in Roman, unless I'm
Speaker 1: just making that up. I know it's also in Homer
Speaker 1: though where where there it's just sort of the idea
Speaker 1: of the gorgan you were saying, versus naming them or
Speaker 1: making them three or making Medusa one of them. It's
Speaker 1: just this idea of like a go organ. It's always
Speaker 1: interesting to me in the way that varies. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of truck with that too, because I'm thinking
Speaker 1: of the You're Pretty is the version You're Pretty is
Speaker 1: Ion is the version that I'm thinking of where the
Speaker 1: gigantomiccky is brought up and it just says the Gorgan.
Speaker 1: And some people think he brings me that up because
Speaker 1: he does that sometimes. But it kind of fits the
Speaker 1: plot device because in the Ion, like they use the
Speaker 1: blood of the Gorgon, Chris is going to use the
Speaker 1: blood of Gorgon to kill her son, and it kind
Speaker 1: of because as I also read the Gagontomicky as a
Speaker 1: family complicate very us. See, oh yeah, they're monsters or whatever.
Speaker 1: These are children of Gaya, and Gaya is the grandmother
Speaker 1: of Zeus, so it's still like this. It's like kind
Speaker 1: of morally complicated in some ways. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: in the Iyeon, you have like, you know, a mother
Speaker 1: about to kill a son and a son about to
Speaker 1: kill a mother, and I think it's like kind of
Speaker 1: delebly evoking the gagantomicky because of that. Yeah, that's really interesting.
Speaker 1: I forgot about that line. So I don't think. I
Speaker 1: don't think I've actually fully read The eye On, but
Speaker 1: I know I've read that passage and it might just
Speaker 1: have been like I have this Medusa source book because
Speaker 1: I'm so obsessed with her, and so I think I
Speaker 1: must have read that in there, because now I'm like,
Speaker 1: where did that come from? Sometimes I just know I've
Speaker 1: read things and I'm like when where literally no idea, um,
Speaker 1: but I didn't know how much I got the whole play.
Speaker 1: It's point. It's really great. I will Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I love Euripides so much, but I love Euripdies to
Speaker 1: the point where I'm currently trying to expand and I
Speaker 1: hear that reference other ones you know. But but ultimately, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I'm going to cover them all. I mean, and of
Speaker 1: course we're lucky enough to have more of Euripides than
Speaker 1: anyone else, so eventually I'll have that as a good justification.
Speaker 1: But he is the best. I mean, it's just I
Speaker 1: don't thank you. Friend will come at me for this,
Speaker 1: but no, I agree with you completely. I definitely have
Speaker 1: had people on to defend the others so far, no
Speaker 1: Esklis but um, but yeah, no, I mean, Eurip's the best.
Speaker 1: It's just so good. It's stuff so weird and great
Speaker 1: and dark and bloody and awesome, always subverting expectations. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, And he's he's really calling into question a
Speaker 1: lot of social institutions more so, I think. Then I
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, I think he's much more like intentionally
Speaker 1: rebellious for lack of a better word, even just in
Speaker 1: terms of the way he treats women and like for
Speaker 1: the most part, some actual people. I mean, yeah, like out,
Speaker 1: I would like I can talk about Medea forever specifically,
Speaker 1: I think I'm a big madhead. Yeah I like that. Yeah, yeah, um,
Speaker 1: but no, I mean Homer even only refers to one Gorgan,
Speaker 1: so it's also this idea that it's like a very
Speaker 1: both an ancient idea and not. And you know, and
Speaker 1: and Medusa's equally agient because he had names Medusa and
Speaker 1: he names three gorgans, and yeah, the variations on who
Speaker 1: and what is a gorgon is fascinating to me because yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, even Hecia doesn't really explain what that is,
Speaker 1: just says or gorgan and like, granted they're the children
Speaker 1: of sea monsters, but then they're not c deities. And yeah,
Speaker 1: and Medusa is the only immortal one exactly, which like
Speaker 1: why Yeah, And to me that makes me think, like whoa,
Speaker 1: I think there's no reason to suggest that her being
Speaker 1: the only mortal one could also make her different in
Speaker 1: other ways. And often the gorgons are described in this
Speaker 1: like monstrous immortal kind of way, which suggests that Medusa
Speaker 1: then could be slightly less monstrous by being the only
Speaker 1: mortal one, because you know, often in I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's feel like it's mostly archaic the art where
Speaker 1: because it's very old, where she's depicted as just like
Speaker 1: a person with wings but ultimately otherwise looks exactly like
Speaker 1: a person. Usually it's like she's sleeping and exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then there's even the b Ocean one where the
Speaker 1: gorgons I think they're verily they're fairly I mean quote
Speaker 1: unquote monstrous there, like they have the very snake guitar. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: and there's one where I don't think they're very tossed there.
Speaker 1: It's the I know it's be Ocean, but it's um
Speaker 1: some somewhere in the archaic period, but it's um. It's
Speaker 1: like very black piece and there's literally one of the
Speaker 1: gorgons is standing in front against Perseus and Medusa's lying
Speaker 1: behind her with her head removed, and they have like
Speaker 1: the snaky hair and stuff. But at the same time
Speaker 1: it's very like it's a very powerful scene of this
Speaker 1: is a sister protecting the sister you've just killed. And
Speaker 1: it's really interesting because it's very like I see it,
Speaker 1: it's very anti Perseous in a way that you know,
Speaker 1: obviously the stories tend not to be, but the pottery
Speaker 1: often is very sympathetic to Medusa. Just yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 1: notice that too. But this pictually one like i'd like
Speaker 1: to take a closer look at because yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it's really interesting because like, and this goes with like
Speaker 1: monsters generally too, and the kind of part of like
Speaker 1: my own like interesting how they kind of like can
Speaker 1: beat this way to like other some marginalized group. Then
Speaker 1: they kind of can be empowering in some contexts, like
Speaker 1: you know with Medusa, like you know, the head of
Speaker 1: the Gorgon was like an apotropaic device, right, sort to
Speaker 1: keep bad things away. And someone says the patriarchies of
Speaker 1: co opting the feminine for its all purpose, isn't it.
Speaker 1: There's part of that too, but like I think there
Speaker 1: is this sort of like sympathy for meduce uh, and
Speaker 1: then later you know Medusa as figure of empowerment that
Speaker 1: that really developed. It happens with a lot of monsters too.
Speaker 1: I'm kind of fascinated, like, yeah, like why do we
Speaker 1: want to reclaim monsters? Or you know, it's only how
Speaker 1: they in some ways they're like used to vilify a group,
Speaker 1: and that group takes it and makes it no this
Speaker 1: actually she's our defender or they're our defender, which I
Speaker 1: think it's really interesting. I mean, I obviously I love Medusa,
Speaker 1: but have you speak speaking of Tumbler as we were earlier,
Speaker 1: have you seen the other the thing that goes around
Speaker 1: about the apotropic nature of her. But that suggests forget
Speaker 1: what it is, but it makes it this idea that
Speaker 1: she was like very much a protector of women and
Speaker 1: not just like a protective symbol. But it's very tumbler history.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen that, but I'm very interested in now though. Okay, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because I want to think that. I do think a
Speaker 1: lot of like you know, the later reception or the
Speaker 1: making of these monsters more to ee than making these
Speaker 1: monsters sort of these powerful pectories, like there's like often
Speaker 1: some sort of base in it in ancient text and
Speaker 1: kind of sort of start to see the seeds of it,
Speaker 1: and then you have like later groups kind of picking
Speaker 1: up on that. So I'm wanting to get this this
Speaker 1: face here, if it's seeing is like maybe there's something
Speaker 1: going on there. But it's so easy to on Perseus, right,
Speaker 1: He's well, you're you think theseus is the worst? Isn't
Speaker 1: that your thing? Which I think you convinced me Theseus
Speaker 1: I believe is the worst. Jason is a close second. Perseus.
Speaker 1: I find it's just that he just like did whatever
Speaker 1: anybody told him to. Yeah, yeah, I mean just killing
Speaker 1: her and your sleeping that's just so like how how
Speaker 1: did audiences even like take that? Like that's the thing, right,
Speaker 1: like nothing about it. She also didn't attack him first.
Speaker 1: There's no reference to her actually like harming anyone with
Speaker 1: her head on her body. It's always just him using
Speaker 1: her head afterwards, which I find so interesting, just jumping
Speaker 1: in from the future to say that we're about to
Speaker 1: discuss the piece of pottery that I brought up earlier,
Speaker 1: and I've linked to it in the episode's description if
Speaker 1: you're curious. Okay, back in it really does. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: seems like she's like standing up to Poseidon there, you
Speaker 1: know it's power. Yeah, well I guess it is Poseidon too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's that's interesting because Medusa's head is off her
Speaker 1: body and because Pegasus is being born. But then it's
Speaker 1: also yeah, but you're right, like where is Perseus or
Speaker 1: is that a different form of Perseus or um I'm
Speaker 1: thinking maybe it's just he's yeah, well, Poseidon is the
Speaker 1: father of Pegasus. So it's almost like this almost even
Speaker 1: more defends my point because I like to really argue
Speaker 1: that um it is that the idea of her being
Speaker 1: assaulted by Poseidon to be impregnated by Perseus and Chrissy
Speaker 1: or is from he Seed, not necessarily because Avid makes
Speaker 1: it very explicit. But I think he Seed's making the
Speaker 1: same point. It's just that he Sid would never say
Speaker 1: it was non consensual because he Sid did not consider
Speaker 1: whether things were consensual or not, Like ephemizing is is
Speaker 1: a little bit, but Ivin' think is usually pretty good
Speaker 1: about being explicit. Yeah, but well, certainly in the Medusa
Speaker 1: is so common, especially in an archaic and even classical
Speaker 1: the classical period, well exactly, Yeah, I mean the translation
Speaker 1: I think I've I don't know ancient Greek, but I've
Speaker 1: asked a lot of people and read a lot of translations,
Speaker 1: and it's always translated as the Poseidon lay with Medusa.
Speaker 1: And I think there's no reason not to describe that
Speaker 1: as potentially sensual. But people on the internet love to
Speaker 1: hate me for it. I'd have to look at the
Speaker 1: group even still, like you know, does say just lay
Speaker 1: with like it's because of the power dynamics of it all,
Speaker 1: and like how Poseidon works and exactly how Zeus works,
Speaker 1: it's like it's almost never consensual. Yeah. Well, and I
Speaker 1: argue too with Poseidon specifically, like Poseidon as much as Zeus.
Speaker 1: You know, it was rarely consensual. Poseidon was much more violent.
Speaker 1: Like the stories we do have a Poseidon assaulting women
Speaker 1: are much more violent than the Zeus ones. Like with Zeus,
Speaker 1: they tend to write them as if like she wasn't
Speaker 1: into it, but like, you know, it's fine because it's Zoos,
Speaker 1: whereas Poseidon, it's like it's pretty it's often pretty explicit
Speaker 1: that he was violent and dangerous. So to me, it's
Speaker 1: just like, well, what it's the likelihood of the Medusa
Speaker 1: just happened to be one where she was into it,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, I totally see that. And
Speaker 1: I think Poseidon too kind of like in this infeor
Speaker 1: position to Zeus, so he kind of has a chip
Speaker 1: on his shoulder about it, and especially like him taking
Speaker 1: that out and you know, in awful ways and the
Speaker 1: sea and just violence. I think there's like definitely something
Speaker 1: going on with that. So I'm yeah, well, even like
Speaker 1: he got his wife by forcing her to marry him,
Speaker 1: like you know, everything about him is super gross, right right, yeah, um, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get us onto the monsters more. I
Speaker 1: don't know, I mean, clearly Medusa is a monster, but
Speaker 1: I just always think I talk about Medusa too. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm happy to keep talking about at a whole like, yeah,
Speaker 1: class just a Medusa, so oh good. I mean that's great.
Speaker 1: What do you cover and stuff like that. So yeah,
Speaker 1: because I feel like, also it's kind of hard to
Speaker 1: get like the because it kind of gets out y'all
Speaker 1: a piecemeal, and get like Avid's version, which is kind
Speaker 1: of one of the more interesting ones. Um uh. But
Speaker 1: I usually have a U. I'll read like the Apollodorus
Speaker 1: version of it, and then I probably have that that
Speaker 1: brief flit from he seed um. But then I like
Speaker 1: to sort of pair that with just um, more modern
Speaker 1: receptions of Medusa. And I can't talk about how it's
Speaker 1: like she's used. It's interesting how she you know, becomes
Speaker 1: this figure of empowerment in some contact, but she still
Speaker 1: used for my massage and sake purposes today like he
Speaker 1: used Google like I might. I say, google female politician
Speaker 1: and Medusa and see what comes up, and you'll, like,
Speaker 1: you know, probably like seven out of ten times you'll
Speaker 1: find something that's interesting. I hadn't thought of that. I
Speaker 1: for me, I come across it so much on Twitter
Speaker 1: because I mean, very often I have got into like
Speaker 1: Twitter beefs with people I guess, for lack of a
Speaker 1: better term of just by suggesting that Medusa I mean
Speaker 1: various things. I actually at this point really enjoy taunting
Speaker 1: it because I have all the information to back it up.
Speaker 1: And I find it interesting to see where people jump
Speaker 1: to because sometimes like if I say, like, you know,
Speaker 1: Medusa was defending herself, or Medusa didn't hurt anyone, or
Speaker 1: things like like things like that that are I mean,
Speaker 1: the defending herself is like you know, not necessarily true
Speaker 1: based on the original text or not original, but like
Speaker 1: you know, all the sources we have, but the the
Speaker 1: idea that she didn't hurt anyone is pretty explicit in
Speaker 1: almost every source, Like while her head was on her body,
Speaker 1: there's no you know, evidence that she really hurt anyone. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And then but the way people will leap to, oh,
Speaker 1: you're talking about Avid's version and that doesn't count because
Speaker 1: he was a Roman, or the opposite where it's like, no,
Speaker 1: but Avid said this, so what are you talking about with?
Speaker 1: Who's this guy? He see it? And the way people
Speaker 1: need to tell a woman that she is wrong about Medusa,
Speaker 1: and by people I should say like these are always
Speaker 1: man the way, well a woman, they're always men or
Speaker 1: women who are clearly like really defined by the patriarchy. Yes,
Speaker 1: and like yeah, they're still like they react in the
Speaker 1: same way has been like they're just they clearly have
Speaker 1: that issue. Um, but yeah, it's it's always like you
Speaker 1: can't be right about Medusa. Here's why, and that why
Speaker 1: varies greatly, so very often it's like the idea that
Speaker 1: Avid doesn't count, like the idea that he's just a
Speaker 1: completely separate being. It's it's unrelated to Greek myth is
Speaker 1: so fascinating to me, Like it just portrays an obvious
Speaker 1: misunderstanding of the way these things worked. Like it's as
Speaker 1: if you know, for all we know Ofvid could have
Speaker 1: been working off of a Greek source. We don't. He
Speaker 1: may not exactly, He may not have invented the idea
Speaker 1: of her being a priestess of Athena. He may not
Speaker 1: have invented it being explicitly assault. Like still I say
Speaker 1: I would argue that he it makes it pretty clear
Speaker 1: without using any explicit terms. But then when I say that,
Speaker 1: they're like, just because he says he doesn't say it
Speaker 1: was assault, doesn't mean it was assult and I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's he see it, like, and it's Poseidon. There
Speaker 1: are so many reasons why you can make that empromising
Speaker 1: sexual violence where you can fit a whole pattern, like
Speaker 1: this fits into that pattern. Yeah, exactly between that and
Speaker 1: the fact that it is Poseidon and it you're not
Speaker 1: talking about a source that would that is likely to
Speaker 1: be explicit about a woman's you know, desires or otherwise, like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's fascinating to me to watch
Speaker 1: the way people react to her in a way that
Speaker 1: they don't react to most other Greek myth generally. There's
Speaker 1: something about Medusa that just like creates this mess. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like she she Like I think it's because
Speaker 1: like she can still be used for misogyny, you know,
Speaker 1: in his most extreme form today, but also she isn't
Speaker 1: you know, she can't be this empowering figure people have
Speaker 1: adopted on Tumbler and then you know, in modern feminist adaptations,
Speaker 1: and um, I feel like because of that extreme people
Speaker 1: want to take one side of it or they're sort
Speaker 1: of so attached to one side of it they can't
Speaker 1: really see anything else. The whole idea of like Avin
Speaker 1: isn't really like you know, his myth is in the
Speaker 1: real bed. That's that's such like classicizing, like bullshit. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: but like the Greeks were making the real myth like no,
Speaker 1: like myths just change. Yeah, like and there's so many
Speaker 1: years in between. It's not like I mean, yeah, there's
Speaker 1: so many years between so many of these sources that
Speaker 1: people want to claim like one over the other, and
Speaker 1: there's like no things shift and adapt and you know
Speaker 1: in the same thing with monsters too, that they're always
Speaker 1: reflecting I means often some sort of misogyny, but it's
Speaker 1: like different variations of it and each adaptation. So m yeah,
Speaker 1: well and yeah, and there. I got one person once
Speaker 1: who whose whole defense was that Medusa deserved to die.
Speaker 1: Because yes, because and this is basically a quote like
Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing, but this is exactly the same point he
Speaker 1: was making. Was that she was terrorizing the lands, which
Speaker 1: is like not found in a single anything source. Nothing,
Speaker 1: There's it's literally not based in mythology. To me, it
Speaker 1: sounds that they took another monster who like was terized.
Speaker 1: I feel like these boors for some reason, yah, Booris
Speaker 1: are monsters in there, always terrorizing the lands. Like see
Speaker 1: other they easy transferred to like another month, like yeah,
Speaker 1: they're all the same, right you know, or yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but like as if you know that she really she
Speaker 1: really needed to die the way that she is used
Speaker 1: in this way, or yeah, she deserves to die. I've
Speaker 1: heard she her death alleviated like a pressure on the
Speaker 1: world that I've heard from somebody where I'm like, you're
Speaker 1: putting an awful lot into Greek myths that is not there.
Speaker 1: That also sounds like you're kind of taking something else,
Speaker 1: just like there's this image of like, yeah, the heroes
Speaker 1: who come and they like sell these monsters and need
Speaker 1: to get rid of and they kind of come through
Speaker 1: and like make the world a better place. But yeah
Speaker 1: by taking them out, and it's like you know, compared
Speaker 1: with like sant Patrick and the snakes and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: like they're civilizing the world. You know, Grease used to
Speaker 1: be a scary place with giant lions and boars and
Speaker 1: then you know, Heracles came along and made everything better.
Speaker 1: You know. That's the thing. Yeah, it like wants to
Speaker 1: connect to that that Heracles level hero that yeah he
Speaker 1: killed the Nimi a lion, he killed the Hydra, but
Speaker 1: Perseus a Medusa isn't that, It isn't in any sourcing.
Speaker 1: It's literally, you know, a king wanted her head because
Speaker 1: he expected it to kill Perseus, not because he actually
Speaker 1: wanted her head. Yea. And that alone is so interesting
Speaker 1: to me because there's no claim like I recently covered
Speaker 1: Perseus in more detail than I had before, and yeah,
Speaker 1: there's nowhere that claims that Medusa had done anything. It's
Speaker 1: just that he assumed that the process would kill away,
Speaker 1: like it was his like dynastic anxiety. I was just like, oh, shoot, yeah,
Speaker 1: gotta get rid of this kid here, you know, like
Speaker 1: I might as well go ask him for the craziest
Speaker 1: wedding gift I can or yeah, his wedding gift, whatever
Speaker 1: it is, Yeah, thing I can think of, you know. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: just so interesting. All of that, I like, I really
Speaker 1: appreciate or not appreciate, but I really find it interesting
Speaker 1: in a dark kind of way, the way people project
Speaker 1: their own shit onto Medusa. And that's interesting everything about
Speaker 1: my miss generally, because again, like you know, I was
Speaker 1: talking about Moss theory and how there's some sort of
Speaker 1: like reflection of something about a culture. Um, but I
Speaker 1: feel like monster kind of like a like a microcosm
Speaker 1: of that of like we kind of put our fears
Speaker 1: and anxieties onto these monsters. And I think it sounds
Speaker 1: like this, what's happening with these people, They're kind of
Speaker 1: putting onto this monster, you know, something that they're something
Speaker 1: that they're worried about, or you know, something that is
Speaker 1: something that the culture that they're that they're coming from,
Speaker 1: you know, because I mean kind of think that's what
Speaker 1: like when you have one author who takes an earlier monster,
Speaker 1: they're gonna, like, you know, take some of the essence
Speaker 1: of their a monster. They're going to put their own,
Speaker 1: their own spin on it when they refashion you know.
Speaker 1: M hmm yeah. I mean to me, it's like they're
Speaker 1: putting you know, they're seeing women take hold of Medusa
Speaker 1: as a symbol of feminism and strength, and they're like,
Speaker 1: this is bad, and thus I will invent all of
Speaker 1: these reasons but claim they're from ancient Greece that obviously
Speaker 1: Medusa was truly monstrous and horrible and she deserved to die,
Speaker 1: and there was this whole thing and obvious that's why
Speaker 1: women are wrong for taking hold of Medusa. Patriarchal fear
Speaker 1: of something being taken from them, Like, no, Medusa supposed
Speaker 1: to work for us, you know, not for you. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's wild. It's just truly, it's It hasn't happened on
Speaker 1: Twitter in a while, and I don't miss it, but
Speaker 1: I kind of do because it's just been a really
Speaker 1: dark insights into the way some people think. Yeah. The
Speaker 1: one of the things that I also asked about Medusa too,
Speaker 1: because most of these students who come in Loving Myth,
Speaker 1: they know Percy Jackson, and I asked them, right, well,
Speaker 1: you know, how is Medusa represented in the first Percy
Speaker 1: Jackson book. Actually I don't seem to remember. And I
Speaker 1: tell them like, oh, yeah, she's a Middle Eastern woman
Speaker 1: who's wearing like, you know, a burka or any job.
Speaker 1: I can't remember. But like I've been like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: like this is I mean, have you have you like
Speaker 1: went back and read the first Percy Jackson No, So
Speaker 1: I was I was too old for them when they
Speaker 1: came out. Yeah, yeah, um, I think our friend Max
Speaker 1: Max poly Uh wrote a great article in Adlon called
Speaker 1: The White Chinting Thief that talks about all this sort
Speaker 1: of like Western civilization laying in it throughout the entire novel.
Speaker 1: It's one part where like the one characters, I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: and like, now my olympus is in New York because
Speaker 1: the United States is the head of Western civilization and everything,
Speaker 1: and um, so there's that. But then it says something
Speaker 1: when you have Medusa as a Middle Eastern woman, that's
Speaker 1: this thing about like a culture or fucking out cultural anxiety,
Speaker 1: you know, if you know what I mean. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: what my listeners can't see it's my face right now.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm not expressing it enough in words
Speaker 1: and it's just visual. But like, holy shit, No, I
Speaker 1: had no idea. I honestly know nothing about Percy Jackson
Speaker 1: except that back when the first movie came out, I
Speaker 1: saw it, but that was also a long time ago,
Speaker 1: and all I remembers it zoom up there in the movie.
Speaker 1: They rightfully, so, Yeah, as much as the fans hate
Speaker 1: that movie, uh they, that was as a good choice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: holy shit. Yeah. On the one hand, I feel like
Speaker 1: making it like oraditionally attractive women in them, and there's
Speaker 1: you know, there's something not great about that, but it's
Speaker 1: better and you know, making her well. And then now
Speaker 1: I think about why I was too old for it,
Speaker 1: Like I think it came out in like two thousand
Speaker 1: and five or six, the first one, um and I so,
Speaker 1: which means you know, there was a certain something going
Speaker 1: on in a certain Middle Eastern place that that makes
Speaker 1: that even less cool, if it can be even less cool.
Speaker 1: But it's kind of all from that same time period
Speaker 1: of like three hundred Yeah, exactly why And and look
Speaker 1: at the month speaking of monsterification general and that's a
Speaker 1: classical monsters. But in that movie, like if you read
Speaker 1: the graphic novel, which like isn't great either, Like no,
Speaker 1: it's very similar at the end, like he recommends like
Speaker 1: a Victor Davis Hanson book, which is like, oh, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't recommend that, um, but like you do kind of
Speaker 1: have like you know, there's all this orientalism with reputation
Speaker 1: of the Persians, and you know Zerx is so othered
Speaker 1: and kind of like there's you know, I guess sort
Speaker 1: of like anothering with the way his gender presentation. But
Speaker 1: there are no monsters in the graphic novel. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: were all added for the movie. So like it's definitely
Speaker 1: like it's they took the graphic novel, which wasn't great
Speaker 1: and kind of intensified the racism. Yeah in it. You
Speaker 1: know that's interesting. I've only flipped through the graphic novel. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but now I just remember looking at it and thinking, oh,
Speaker 1: this is not much better. And actually the grapher novels
Speaker 1: start with skin tones. It represents Greeks having darker skin tones,
Speaker 1: where in the movie they're also white. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: It's like, I mean and Troy and stuff too, where
Speaker 1: you're like, why are you all white? And like British
Speaker 1: or Americans. It's all just very weird. Yeah. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think you're right to sort of make
Speaker 1: that connection with it's all around that that same Patrid
Speaker 1: not being said though again like I haven't read all
Speaker 1: of Rackerians. Look, it was his looky like unlike a
Speaker 1: certain person we mentioned earlier. Seems like he's taken the
Speaker 1: criticism well and has changed with him. Yeah, it sounds
Speaker 1: like his later novels are much better about like the
Speaker 1: inclusivity and things like that. That's good. That seems like
Speaker 1: the time he's like kind of figured it out. He's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it does what a certain person who must not be named,
Speaker 1: it doesn't do here. Okay, Yes, that was bad and
Speaker 1: I will try to be better about this, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it certainly was like there's a flawed argument, but
Speaker 1: there's an argument you made for like it was of
Speaker 1: its time doesn't make it right. But it's like if
Speaker 1: that was written today, I don't think a person deserves
Speaker 1: a second chance to redo it. But yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know something that's that old and then you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's all about I think recognizing mistakes and things like that.
Speaker 1: But that's I just cannot I'm sorry, I just can't
Speaker 1: get over reading people. Oh my god, this was like
Speaker 1: longer ago, but not that I think I read in
Speaker 1: like twenty fifteen. I was just like, yeah, it's hard
Speaker 1: to read now, you know. I mean, yeah, that shouldn't
Speaker 1: have come out in two thousand and five or six either, definitely,
Speaker 1: But that's wild. No, people ask me about Percy Jackson
Speaker 1: all the time because a lot of my listeners are
Speaker 1: younger than me, which is like, I get it. I'm
Speaker 1: glad that it that it brought so many people into
Speaker 1: this world, and then they continued to learn and you know,
Speaker 1: they found my podcast or whatever, and then I can
Speaker 1: teach them even more. But it's funny to me because
Speaker 1: it's there's a lot of like I just I don't
Speaker 1: know if I can go back and if I want
Speaker 1: to bother going back and reading a book that was
Speaker 1: like it's about an eleven year old that came out
Speaker 1: when I was like sixteen or seventeen. Then now I'm
Speaker 1: in my thirties and I'm like, I just don't think
Speaker 1: it's worth it, guys, like because people want me to
Speaker 1: read it and talk about it, and I'm like, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to ever have the same connection to it
Speaker 1: that people did when they read it when they were young,
Speaker 1: Like there's not going to be any of that for me.
Speaker 1: And then now hearing that Medusa bit, I'm like, I'm really,
Speaker 1: I just don't think that people want to hear what
Speaker 1: I have to say about those original ones. I don't
Speaker 1: think that they want to hear it. They think they
Speaker 1: want to hear it, and they'd be wrong. Yeah, Yeah, apparently,
Speaker 1: though Disney Pluses is making a series with Recreared It,
Speaker 1: I think like whole we're upset because the movie wasn't
Speaker 1: good because they didn't work with and also yeah, it
Speaker 1: sounds like weird is like you know, getting better about
Speaker 1: like trying to make sure his his his works are
Speaker 1: accessible with everyone and not not traumatizing or alienating anyone.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a chance it would be good and watchable
Speaker 1: so well, And I know, yeah, I know he publicly
Speaker 1: hates those movies, like he talks about how bad they
Speaker 1: are compared to his books. So yeah, though, that's that's
Speaker 1: really fascinating that because Medusa to me, like in pop culture,
Speaker 1: I always more think of, you know, Clash of the Titans,
Speaker 1: I think has become kind of people's opinion on her.
Speaker 1: Like people really take what she is in that original
Speaker 1: one and kind of make that into that is what
Speaker 1: Medusa looked like in the mythology, which is fascinating that
Speaker 1: movie that the nineteen eighty one version really kind of
Speaker 1: has had captured the popular imagination. Yeah, it's made her
Speaker 1: this like snake body, I think is the point of it, right,
Speaker 1: Like the bottom half Snake is very much one hundred
Speaker 1: percent like invented by Clash of the Titans, almost calling
Speaker 1: upon a kidnap who's kind of described like that in
Speaker 1: some Yeah, it becomes sort of this like a monster,
Speaker 1: kind of a monster of a monster. We kind of
Speaker 1: take two of the monsters from putting them together to
Speaker 1: make to make her more monstrous and like, yeah, she
Speaker 1: is in class, but then in the remakes she's still
Speaker 1: like she got to think of tale, but she's like
Speaker 1: a more traditionally attractive women and there's problems, yeah, stuff
Speaker 1: we could unpack with that. Um, she's also I mean yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that was just this was going to be
Speaker 1: fully a technological complaint about that. But she's just so
Speaker 1: cgied in a bad way in the number one. So weird. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think it's even even like more misogyn and
Speaker 1: the remake someone's in an article like where they kind
Speaker 1: of pick apart a lot of the ways sperseded and
Speaker 1: there's like the whole line or like tell them men
Speaker 1: did this, you know, and obviously on the servers that
Speaker 1: kind of means like human kind. It could be sort
Speaker 1: of like men, like you know, sort of like the
Speaker 1: you know men and in the gender sense, which is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of dick sing. I haven't seen that in a while.
Speaker 1: The CGI one is so I call the CI with
Speaker 1: CGI one. Yeah. The remake is so it's so CGI. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, we see the human in the monsters and
Speaker 1: other people who reclaim them, because like you know, often
Speaker 1: people who are said to be monsters aren't really monsters,
Speaker 1: you know, and they're they're monsterified for you know, some
Speaker 1: sort of for some for nefarious reason. You know, one
Speaker 1: of the pieces that the monsters also a kind of
Speaker 1: desire or sort of like we kind of project our
Speaker 1: fantasies onto the monster. I think that's why, Like as
Speaker 1: much as I say, you can have a monster that
Speaker 1: you know is meant to sort of marginalize women, but
Speaker 1: later because you know, Medusa is like a powerful female figure,
Speaker 1: she can be readopted. I talk about like there's just
Speaker 1: a larger pattern of that even coming to the modern
Speaker 1: era too, and sometimes like they like monsters get reclaimed
Speaker 1: by figures you wouldn't think, like for example, like the
Speaker 1: Mintar is like huge and queer communities like they love
Speaker 1: the Mintar and he kind of pops up as as
Speaker 1: as gay and our gender queer and in different contexts
Speaker 1: and kind of fascinated with that too, where like the
Speaker 1: menitaries is made and creature, and like, you know, why
Speaker 1: do these monsters get And I can't really have answers
Speaker 1: using to explore things really like why like why do
Speaker 1: we like kind of like want to take these monsters back? Um?
Speaker 1: But I think it's something very powerful about that, this
Speaker 1: idea of your You're taking a figure that was used
Speaker 1: to you know, harm or press one group, and then
Speaker 1: they can take it in. It can be you know,
Speaker 1: the symbol of empowerment. So basically is that monster. And
Speaker 1: maybe this is obvious, but like monsters are reflections and
Speaker 1: sort of cultural anxiety, um and you know, but to
Speaker 1: save time, they can they can be reclaimed, and I
Speaker 1: think it kind of like speaks to the you know,
Speaker 1: the unability of myth and how it you know, I
Speaker 1: kind of kind of hard sometimes to study what we
Speaker 1: study because like, oh my god, like look at all
Speaker 1: the physogny, like all of this like ethnocentrism and you know,
Speaker 1: like how was using colonialism. But it's kind of cool
Speaker 1: one they can be you know, reclaims. That's why I
Speaker 1: find it um particularly interesting. Hmm. Well, I think ultimately
Speaker 1: I feel like just even you repeating that part of it,
Speaker 1: it's I think we've just talked about all of that
Speaker 1: without even necessarily going into the more like the deeper
Speaker 1: academic logistics of it. So I think that's kind of
Speaker 1: great too, because you're right, like that's just sort of
Speaker 1: how the conversation about Medusa went and and even just
Speaker 1: the monsters, and I like the now just the rehash
Speaker 1: what we talked about, but the giant stuff and the
Speaker 1: difference between the Grease and Rome versions of them, they're
Speaker 1: very interesting to me. So yeah, but yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: are there any other monsters, like specific monsters that you
Speaker 1: have a particular affection for that you want to talk about? Um,
Speaker 1: so I talked about the mentar and I think like
Speaker 1: he like, besides, Medusa is like probably one of the
Speaker 1: more famous one that things interesting how like, yeah, the
Speaker 1: queer community has really kind of taking him up, and
Speaker 1: there's like a kind of starts earlier. You're like there
Speaker 1: are there we have pots of are with baby Minotar
Speaker 1: on them. So it's like Pacific and you and just
Speaker 1: so he's like, oh my god, but he was like
Speaker 1: a baby once. And like I think, like I'm thinking
Speaker 1: for tell Us sixty four in particular, where like you
Speaker 1: have Ariadne sort of saying I killed my brother for
Speaker 1: you, you you know, like that wasn't easy. I think I
Speaker 1: sort of it's like, yeah, he was somebody's brother, he
Speaker 1: was somebody's child. Um, I don't know it is more
Speaker 1: I don't have an answer, but others there's there's such
Speaker 1: a fascination with the minutes are even though he's such
Speaker 1: like a kind of like one of the most monster
Speaker 1: monstery of the monsters, like he eats people, he's part human,
Speaker 1: part cow um, but there's something about him that really
Speaker 1: sort of resonates on off with the isolation maybe sort
Speaker 1: of like with people with marginal identities, they kind of
Speaker 1: like felt that isolation of being stuck, you know, in
Speaker 1: the maze and b may not to be monsters by society. Um.
Speaker 1: I think there's also that really for lack of a
Speaker 1: better word, that really sexy statue of him and theseus
Speaker 1: and I swear like so much of any kind of
Speaker 1: like theory about him and gender, sexuality and stuff comes
Speaker 1: from that because it's pretty explicit. It's very very sexualized. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's that's actually definitely part of this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's interesting. No, well, I had I had Corebeth Fraser
Speaker 1: on too recently to talk about the minotar as it
Speaker 1: relates to like theories around autism, which was super interesting.
Speaker 1: Oh really, Okay, that's definitely there's a lot of connections there. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's similar of that, the isolation, right, that and
Speaker 1: the labyrinth and all of those things. But I think
Speaker 1: the minotaur and Medusa are some of the most fascinating
Speaker 1: because you can apply so many different things to them,
Speaker 1: and even though they're you know, supposed to be monstrous,
Speaker 1: it's so easy to connect with them on and their
Speaker 1: stories on like pretty human levels in different ways like yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's angry men on the internet yelling
Speaker 1: at you for no reason, yeah, the isolation of a minotaur,
Speaker 1: or yeah, so many things. It's just yeah, they're also fascinating.
Speaker 1: So it was like sometimes when I talk about these
Speaker 1: monsta and then talk about you know, masta aren't as
Speaker 1: related to the classical world, and like, how like you
Speaker 1: can kind of apply these theories like Gritty, I'm sort
Speaker 1: of fascinated by you familiar with Gritty the mascot, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the Philaephia Flyers who went from like you know, hated figure,
Speaker 1: like what is this, what is the most worst mascot
Speaker 1: in the world, to like, oh my god, he's this
Speaker 1: anti fascist U symbol. I think I said a similar
Speaker 1: pattern going on to the monster. He kind of comes
Speaker 1: just like I think thing how like monsters often, especially
Speaker 1: with chaos like type in like like the Giants, and
Speaker 1: he's still like this this chaos figure, but it's like
Speaker 1: good chaos. Uh yeah, I think it's really interesting, and
Speaker 1: like we kind of live an a third time. He's
Speaker 1: kind of like his fitting monster to sort of reflect that,
Speaker 1: but he's like this sort of positive figure. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: so true. He has a lot of Muppet characteristics too,
Speaker 1: which I think lend him to certain generations. You know,
Speaker 1: Like I think he just is kind of he has
Speaker 1: that part what makes me think that he might as
Speaker 1: well be like either you know, amongst the Muppets, the
Speaker 1: traditional Muppets, or on Sesame Street or you know, any
Speaker 1: of those things where I'm just like, he just kind
Speaker 1: of seems like a nice guy. But also, yeah, he
Speaker 1: has become an anti fascism figure in a really fascinating way.
Speaker 1: But also don't mess with him because he will mess
Speaker 1: you up. That's true. That's true. Yeah, he wouldn't get
Speaker 1: along on Sesame Street. He'd get kicked out. Yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's super interesting. I hadn't thought about him, so I
Speaker 1: applied to him. And also I have the movie Luca,
Speaker 1: the Pixar movie Luca. No I've heard of it. Okay,
Speaker 1: it's pretty cool. I won't give any spoilers in it,
Speaker 1: but like the premise that there's this young sea monster
Speaker 1: who lives he's like a fish shepherd who's off the
Speaker 1: coast of Italy. If he wants to go, it's kind
Speaker 1: of like the premis like a little mermaid, like he
Speaker 1: wants to go beyond his world and and let's see
Speaker 1: the upper world. Those parents well let him, but eventually
Speaker 1: he does. But it has actually had the same rules
Speaker 1: as the movie Splash. I don't even remember he was Splash. Basically,
Speaker 1: when a long time, you know, you become a human.
Speaker 1: So basically how it works. So he's this monster Nelson.
Speaker 1: He's going to the town where they hate sea monsters.
Speaker 1: He has to kind of be careful he doesn't get
Speaker 1: wet u when he meets this other boy. And interesting,
Speaker 1: I definitely like started watching them, like, oh, they're clearly
Speaker 1: like this is a romance between them, Like I read
Speaker 1: them as you know, sort of there was a sort
Speaker 1: of romantic thing going on. We treat them and nothing
Speaker 1: like I supposit happened, but like after the end of
Speaker 1: more like oh, clearly, like did that was like a romance,
Speaker 1: you know, a queer romance. I'm like, wow, Disney, you're
Speaker 1: you know, good for you. But then like the director
Speaker 1: came out and was like, no, the writer came like,
Speaker 1: that's not meant to be it. But like other people,
Speaker 1: we're definitely reading it that way, especially like with a
Speaker 1: connection of like queer people and monsters. I'm like, there's
Speaker 1: there's something going on with that. It's a very sort
Speaker 1: of lovely story, and I think it kind of leads
Speaker 1: into the whole questioning like who is the monster and
Speaker 1: because like so basically this pair they go the city
Speaker 1: and they want to like buy a vest, but it's
Speaker 1: very Italian stereotypes, but they want to buy a vest
Speaker 1: bust so they can they can see the world. And
Speaker 1: it goes, oh, there's this triathlon happening. It's like it's
Speaker 1: like a I think the bicycle race like a swimming
Speaker 1: contest and apostating contest again full of Italian stereotypes. Um, like, okay,
Speaker 1: if we win this contest, then then we can get
Speaker 1: the best pens of the world. But their competitor it's
Speaker 1: a sort of like super kind of preppy bully like
Speaker 1: figure and his name is Ercole. And then I'm like
Speaker 1: Ercole and I'm like, that's not I'm looking up Italian
Speaker 1: word for Hercules. Oh my god. His name means Hercules.
Speaker 1: H oh my god in English. And like he's kind
Speaker 1: of this you know, posting figure to monsters. But he's
Speaker 1: the dick, right, He's the one. Like he even wears
Speaker 1: the sweater crossed overs, you're like not wearing the sweater,
Speaker 1: like kind of wears it over his shoulders, like in
Speaker 1: a really goog way. And he's just kind of a
Speaker 1: bully figure. And I think it kind of really subverting
Speaker 1: the whole you know, Hercules as monster slayer things queer,
Speaker 1: the cool queer uh story too. So yeah, I did
Speaker 1: not know any of that. I feel like I must
Speaker 1: have only heard the name of it because that sounds
Speaker 1: lovely and now I want to, yeah, check it out.
Speaker 1: But that sort of monster imagery and questioning the monster, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's really fascinating, especially the Hercules bit, Like yeah, oh
Speaker 1: my god, that's wow. This seems like there's one statue
Speaker 1: in the town center where they go to and there's
Speaker 1: this kind of really burly statue of a man. He's
Speaker 1: like holding a sea surfent and he's like choking a
Speaker 1: sea surfent and I'm like, it kind of reminds me
Speaker 1: of like this images of Hercules fighting the catas, so mhmm,
Speaker 1: so check it, check it out, I will. I always
Speaker 1: think of m Hercules too when he's a baby and
Speaker 1: he kills the two snakes. I mean, that's a baby.
Speaker 1: But oh yeah, that's actually I didn't don't have that.
Speaker 1: Actually I think that's going on there too, yeah, because
Speaker 1: it's very like strangling from what I remember. Yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: well he does do that, but as he's a strangler,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, yeah, he resorts to that a lot. I mean, fine,
Speaker 1: he had too in the Nimmu line, I guess, but yeah,
Speaker 1: uh well, I mean, honestly, I think this has been
Speaker 1: really fascinating. This has been great. No, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: I just love talking about monsters and I got to
Speaker 1: talk about hecaton Kyries, so I'm a big fan. We
Speaker 1: should should keep talking about because I like, I think
Speaker 1: that's like a future project. I want to like dive
Speaker 1: deeply more into them, particularly Brew areas. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: the Gem because I just find it like the fact
Speaker 1: he's on like two different sides of the conflict in
Speaker 1: different versions and connection to thetis I find really interesting. Hum.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, the more you research hand, please feel
Speaker 1: free to reach out and come back on and talk
Speaker 1: about hackaton Kyries because I mean, people know that about
Speaker 1: me too. It's just the amount that I would try
Speaker 1: to say that word as much as humanly possible, I think.
Speaker 1: I mean, I joke on Twitter a while ago that
Speaker 1: like like the one hundred handers sounds like if like
Speaker 1: a nineties band or something like that. But I can't
Speaker 1: even say the Greek. I know Greek, but I can't
Speaker 1: even say the name. Yeah, but yeah, and I don't
Speaker 1: know Greek, so I just whatever it's And then of hands,
Speaker 1: I haven't Yeah, yeah, the hundred hands. You know, that's fine.
Speaker 1: There's even a reference to that in Odyssey. But again
Speaker 1: it's like yes, oh my gosh, you need to keep
Speaker 1: playing this yea, yeah, sorry exactly. Yeah, No, there's like
Speaker 1: a whole But it's another one of those like this
Speaker 1: is a rationalization. This is like an understanding of it.
Speaker 1: There's like a competition and it's called like the Battle
Speaker 1: of one hundred Hands. I love that rationalization, that rationalization.
Speaker 1: But then they have the crazy monster stuff like I know, yeah, yeah, um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, thank you so much. Do you want to
Speaker 1: um promote anything? Do you want to have people find
Speaker 1: you on Twitter or anything like that if you want
Speaker 1: to share? Ah? Sure, yeah. I mean like when like
Speaker 1: I have like a book coming out on that I'm
Speaker 1: a co editing a book on Testis. Oh that's great,
Speaker 1: that's hopefully come out in the spring. That's when you're
Speaker 1: coming out. Um, but yeah, you can share my Twitter handle. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll put it in that episode. You have a Latin
Speaker 1: Twitter handle, don't you. I do. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: was heard. I heard your podcast with Avan and yeah,
Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, Latin poetry is awesome. Okay, I get that.
Speaker 1: You know, No, it's great. You're touched Smith, but it's
Speaker 1: really cool what the Romans do with myth Okay, you know,
Speaker 1: I know the Romans are great. I more even mean
Speaker 1: it from a basic level of people trying to then
Speaker 1: search for you on Twitter, because Maxwell Max he had
Speaker 1: the same problem. He was like trying to say it,
Speaker 1: and I was like, people are able to find that.
Speaker 1: So I'm just going to put it a link in
Speaker 1: and people can follow you on Twitter and find it.
Speaker 1: More about the Giants or the hecaton Kyries or Thetis
Speaker 1: or we have we have a lake here that's called
Speaker 1: Fetis Lake, the same. I think I found that when
Speaker 1: I was like because I was like doing this like
Speaker 1: some deep dives, like what does Thetis mean? It's actually
Speaker 1: my my I'm writing one chapter in the volume, and
Speaker 1: my chapter is about Thetis in the nineteen eighty one
Speaker 1: clash the Titans. Because notice she's not in the remake.
Speaker 1: They cut her out. Okay, so I have not seen
Speaker 1: the original. You've not seen the original? No, I need to.
Speaker 1: I don't know why I haven't yet. It's actually a
Speaker 1: kind of good. It's campy, but it's like good campy
Speaker 1: and like, yeah, it's much like you, Gossie the original
Speaker 1: Maggie Smith, I know, Dame Maggie Smith plays Thetis. Fuck off. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: you know you've just sold me. I've been meaning to
Speaker 1: forever and I saw Jason and the Argonauts and I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed that. For the camp I think this is
Speaker 1: better it was. Okay, I'm gonna watch it, especially if
Speaker 1: with Maggie Smith is place and she's like a villain,
Speaker 1: but I think he's a really cool villain. Um. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I have a whole theory that like because like, like,
Speaker 1: so Laura Slatkin wrote this book in the nineties that's
Speaker 1: basically about like Thetis kind of has the secret power
Speaker 1: and you can kind of like catch glimpses of it
Speaker 1: in The Iliot and later adaptations because I notice how
Speaker 1: like she like Zeus has to kind of listen to her,
Speaker 1: you know, and like she can kind of influence Zeus,
Speaker 1: Like why can't she influence Zeus? And then the whole
Speaker 1: thing of like, oh, like when they find out that
Speaker 1: her son's gonna be greater than his father, we got
Speaker 1: to marry her after a mortal Like she gets her
Speaker 1: power some sort of power from her like from her womb,
Speaker 1: and that kind of gives her like even though she's
Speaker 1: sort of marginalized in many ways, she can kind of
Speaker 1: influence the other Olympians. Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: she is, she's not like used very often. No, And
Speaker 1: then like have you read The Song of Achilles by Yeah,
Speaker 1: I kind of don't. I love that book, and I
Speaker 1: love all of Mother's work, but I kind of don't
Speaker 1: love how evil she made Tis and actual I feel
Speaker 1: like in the Iliots she's a kind of very sympathetic
Speaker 1: figure and I get that she needed a villain, and
Speaker 1: like there is actually like from having edited this volume,
Speaker 1: I'm like there's a tradition whereis Isn't agree. I think
Speaker 1: she's like pretty good in the Iliot, but there's like
Speaker 1: just that she like killed a bunch of her kids
Speaker 1: that she's trying to make them immortal. Yeah, the whole
Speaker 1: like trying to make Achilles immortal, like the dipping. But
Speaker 1: there's also a story that like basically she's like doing
Speaker 1: like am media type thing where she's like putting kids
Speaker 1: into a pot the chart with the magic to make
Speaker 1: them immortal. But the first like six died and it's
Speaker 1: like you know, serious and serious mots mom shaming thing
Speaker 1: going on. Yeah. Yeah, so there is like a basis
Speaker 1: for like evil Fetis, but it kind of comes later,
Speaker 1: which is interesting. Yeah, thank you Agains so much for
Speaker 1: doing this. It's been really fun. Fucking love monsters and
Speaker 1: giants and hecaton Kyries and Medusa and any excuse to
Speaker 1: talk about them with somebody else who knows them that much.
Speaker 1: It's so good. Thank you, it's been a pleasure. And yes,
Speaker 1: can you talk with someone who loved monsters like Medusa
Speaker 1: as much as I do? Right? Nerdy stuff. It's so
Speaker 1: good video games, Oh my god, exactly all of it. Yeah, Nerds,
Speaker 1: thank you all. As always, this was an incredibly fun
Speaker 1: conversation to record. You always know they're fun when we
Speaker 1: go so far off the rails. Truly, so fun and
Speaker 1: so fun to listen to again after so many months
Speaker 1: after when I edited it just now. I love this
Speaker 1: part of my job so so very much. But I
Speaker 1: also have to say that I wrote the first half
Speaker 1: of this intro and edited the episode on Wednesday. Now
Speaker 1: it's Thursday and i'm recording this. It's Thursday and Russia
Speaker 1: has invaded Ukraine. Normally I would have some pithy ending
Speaker 1: to an episode, some fun thing to say, but I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to handle what I'm watching unfold
Speaker 1: and what I'm reading. I didn't want to say anything
Speaker 1: at the top of the episode because this was recorded
Speaker 1: so long ago and it's great and my guest deserves
Speaker 1: better than to have it introduced with such horrifying news.
Speaker 1: But I also don't want to pretend it's not happening,
Speaker 1: or that I'm not paying attention to all my listeners
Speaker 1: in Ukraine. I'm sure you won't hear this right now,
Speaker 1: but when you do, know that I'm thinking of you
Speaker 1: and your entire country. Thank you all so much for listening.
Speaker 1: I am live and I love this shit.