Speaker 1: Oh hi, hello you nerdy nerds. Let's talk about Myth's baby,
Speaker 1: and I am your host live today. I am here
Speaker 1: with a fun and silly and deeply free wheeling conversation
Speaker 1: with MICHAELA. Smith, who, for the last year has worked
Speaker 1: with me to bring you all this podcast. As I
Speaker 1: say at the end of every episode, Michaela handles so
Speaker 1: many things and has helped immensely immeasurably with the Spartan series, specifically,
Speaker 1: like four Real, it would not have existed without her,
Speaker 1: so we thought, why not talk about it. We recorded
Speaker 1: this conversation about broadly what it was like to research
Speaker 1: Sparta for this series, but of course we also just
Speaker 1: talked about lots of other random ancient Greek things as
Speaker 1: they related to our research, and sometimes as they did
Speaker 1: not relate remotely to our research. But we're fun and
Speaker 1: interesting all the same. This is a ridiculously casual episode
Speaker 1: with lots of tangents and rambling, but it's fun and
Speaker 1: if you want more content, it is the perfect way
Speaker 1: to have a look at what has gone into the
Speaker 1: Spartan series and a bit more about what goes into
Speaker 1: every episode of this podcast. I will just say that
Speaker 1: an editing episode. I noticed a couple of references to Turkey, um,
Speaker 1: just in reference to ancient locations. But I want to
Speaker 1: make sure I acknowledge that this was recorded before the
Speaker 1: absolutely devastating earthquakes that occurred earlier this week. I'm thinking
Speaker 1: of everyone in Turkey and Syria right now. If you
Speaker 1: are a listener from that area, Oh my god, stay safe.
Speaker 1: Earthquakes are terrifying. This is the bonus episode. Researching Sparta
Speaker 1: was a trip behind the scenes with MICHAELA. Smith. This
Speaker 1: is a really casual episode in which I'm literally just
Speaker 1: talking to MICHAELA. We're going to try to not go
Speaker 1: completely off topic because half the time we talk we
Speaker 1: just talked about our pets. But this is this is
Speaker 1: work talk, not that when we talk about our pets
Speaker 1: is not technically on work hours anyway. UM, that's why
Speaker 1: this is a bonus episode. So we're talking today with MICHAELA.
Speaker 1: Who is my I never want to say assistant because
Speaker 1: it sounds weird. UM, so we call her the Hermes
Speaker 1: to my Olympians. But like, ultimately, like in terms of
Speaker 1: I mean she does she's a research assistant. Assistant assistant,
Speaker 1: I don't know everything. The only employee I have you
Speaker 1: can a loop and could be an employee. That's true, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: I don't know what he do. Manager there we go,
Speaker 1: all right, and then if I could pay him and
Speaker 1: then I would have double the money. Is that a thing? Well,
Speaker 1: it's all still my money. I mean it's literally I
Speaker 1: always look like using my business credit card and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm the only person who owns this business. It's just
Speaker 1: my credit card. But I'm like, suddenly, somehow it's different
Speaker 1: when I spend my business money. Yeah, you got to
Speaker 1: keep the receipts start. Actually, my mom's would make me
Speaker 1: do that forever. Oh yeah, Well, anyway, that's what this
Speaker 1: is a This is a bonus episode because it's going
Speaker 1: to be very casual, fast and loose with everything. But basically,
Speaker 1: michaela has done all of the research for this series
Speaker 1: on Sparta, so much of it. It helped in large
Speaker 1: part by the fact that she is going to university
Speaker 1: and has access to things like j Store and beyond,
Speaker 1: So thank the God for that. But yeah, so we
Speaker 1: just said we to talk about like how we did
Speaker 1: the research for this, or like weird stuff we learned
Speaker 1: about Sparta. Yeah, so I don't know why don't you
Speaker 1: tell me what it was like to do a bunch
Speaker 1: of research for me? MICHAELA. Like I had this day,
Speaker 1: like a month into it. I called my mom because
Speaker 1: sometimes sometime yeah, I'm just like Nacy, please sent me straight.
Speaker 1: And I'm just like I'm just reading things and make
Speaker 1: notes and she's like, yeah, that sounds like research. I'm
Speaker 1: like yeah, cool. I'm like it feels wrong because I
Speaker 1: do this for fun, and she's like, no, no, now
Speaker 1: it's going to be stressful. And I was like, great
Speaker 1: story of having a podcast. Do you take the thing
Speaker 1: that has always been the thing you do for fun
Speaker 1: and you make it stressful. Not to say that I
Speaker 1: don't still have fun, but like it is considerably more
Speaker 1: different when it is also the thing that pays my bill. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And this is why I didn't go to school for piano,
Speaker 1: because I was like, no, I enjoyed this too much. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's why I was so happy to like no
Speaker 1: longer work with dogs, because it was like there was
Speaker 1: a day I was walking Zoe and I was just like,
Speaker 1: this feels like work. I don't like this, And now
Speaker 1: walking her is just a chore because it takes her
Speaker 1: thirty minutes to like walk the lengths of like two houses.
Speaker 1: She's like, I'm all to leave me alone. But she
Speaker 1: has been my she's been the assistant to the research assistant.
Speaker 1: And it's just been a lot of like thinking of keywords,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, words like how specific can I get?
Speaker 1: Visiting so many libraries. I am so thankful some days,
Speaker 1: like there's some great things called being indigenous and like
Speaker 1: this beautiful amount of like guilt some places have, Like UBC,
Speaker 1: it is just like if you are indigenous, you get
Speaker 1: a free library card, and I'm like saved seventy hanging
Speaker 1: out in UBC just like this. Well, one of the
Speaker 1: things I think is like both so interesting and so
Speaker 1: frustrating about Sparta is this like lack of Spartan sources.
Speaker 1: We've talked about it on the show and so but
Speaker 1: also like like a lack of Spartan sources. But then
Speaker 1: there's the question of like you know, how the other
Speaker 1: sources are influenced, but even still like so, for instance,
Speaker 1: I was just recording the Mythology episode that will have
Speaker 1: aired by the time this one comes out, and you know,
Speaker 1: we're just I wanted to talk about the myth characters
Speaker 1: that are so important in sparta um. But for the
Speaker 1: most part, like what, we definitely don't have Spartan sources
Speaker 1: for these myths um, but they're yeah, nothing at all.
Speaker 1: But then they're super famous characters in the broader history
Speaker 1: of Greece and mythology and stuff, so it's so interesting
Speaker 1: to navigate. And then like I wanted to shock a
Speaker 1: lot about the hair clyde I the return of the
Speaker 1: children of Heracles, but the primary source for that is Euripides.
Speaker 1: So it's like, well, no, like one, I don't have
Speaker 1: time to cover a play right now, but too, that's
Speaker 1: an Athenian play written by an Athenian, Like I think
Speaker 1: it's probably written like during the Peloponnese War, if not
Speaker 1: like shortly before after, Like which which play you're a
Speaker 1: clyde I. I'm so bad with the place, But yes,
Speaker 1: I know if it's got to be like somewhere in
Speaker 1: and around that time period because that's when Euripes alive
Speaker 1: and so yeah, and so it's just like I'm not
Speaker 1: going to use that play to tell the story because
Speaker 1: that feels irrelevant. I'm going to tell it of one
Speaker 1: day for sure, because it's Euripides. But yeah, trying to
Speaker 1: navigate that and then still get all the bits and
Speaker 1: pieces out that need to be shared. It's it's fascinating
Speaker 1: and I think it's making for both interesting and frustrating
Speaker 1: episodes for listeners. And uh, I mean, I mean that's
Speaker 1: like the thing though, that you learn once you start studying, like, um,
Speaker 1: you know the ancient of training or history in general
Speaker 1: is sources. Especially when we go back so far and
Speaker 1: you're looking at Greek and moment sources, there's like none,
Speaker 1: we have so little, Like my professors was talking about
Speaker 1: it in my bone class the other day and she
Speaker 1: was saying, like we have something like of what the
Speaker 1: Romans actually vote, that's nothing, and that's Rome, which is
Speaker 1: like we have more from Rome than we do from Greece.
Speaker 1: So god, that's painful to think about. There's so much
Speaker 1: that's gone. Like, um, if you have a maybe it's
Speaker 1: not a great suggestion, but like athenaus Um, I think
Speaker 1: of a later source, but he has like random citations
Speaker 1: all things. And so that's how we know some sources
Speaker 1: that we don't have, which is fantastic, but it's also
Speaker 1: so painful because you're just like, no, please, I want
Speaker 1: to read that. Yeah, I mean I think of people
Speaker 1: like I feel like Simonites is not necessarily the same way.
Speaker 1: He's definitely partially like that. But once, oh, Farrachites is
Speaker 1: who I'm thinking of. Farrakites is like this ancient photographer.
Speaker 1: He wrote a ton of stuff. He was a big
Speaker 1: epic poet. We know he wrote so much, and we
Speaker 1: don't have his stuff. We have like references to it,
Speaker 1: like a line here or there that somebody quoted or like,
Speaker 1: so we know that he wrote about all this stuff.
Speaker 1: We don't know what it is. And that is both
Speaker 1: so fascinating and so infuriating all the same time. And
Speaker 1: this like yeah, it's it's just utterly wild. And then
Speaker 1: like that exists for all of the ancient world. And
Speaker 1: then yeah, adding to it this idea like not only
Speaker 1: is that true for Sparta, but also like you know,
Speaker 1: most of the sources that do survive are biased towards Athens.
Speaker 1: Most of the scholarship that has been done on all
Speaker 1: of those sources for the last two thousand years is
Speaker 1: biased towards Athens. And then on top of all that,
Speaker 1: Sparta was secretive the recipe for disaster. Yeah, well that's
Speaker 1: we We got most of our sources from at because
Speaker 1: that's what everyone like even antiquity. They were like Athens
Speaker 1: became like the cultural center of re swim. But they
Speaker 1: also I think it just wrote things down more right,
Speaker 1: Like I think they also just like preserve, whereas Sparta
Speaker 1: was probably they focused more on the oral storytelling and
Speaker 1: thus we just don't end up having it. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you know, I think it could be that partially. And
Speaker 1: I also just think it's like the unfortunate thing of
Speaker 1: we just don't know because Sparta didn't leave much behind,
Speaker 1: like even um like they would we I think we've
Speaker 1: talked about this and some of the episodes of We
Speaker 1: Will or We I don't know, But it was like
Speaker 1: the Fucidities quote where it was like you would never
Speaker 1: know if you went to and you saw the remains
Speaker 1: as Sparta, you would never know that they were such
Speaker 1: a powerhouse because there's nothing there, Like they didn't do
Speaker 1: monumental building the way Athens didn't. But Athens is like,
Speaker 1: you know, they just it's an entirely different cultural ethos
Speaker 1: is still very like it's it's hard to describe because
Speaker 1: I'm like it's all week in the end, but then
Speaker 1: you get to know each of the city states, and
Speaker 1: it's like they're so different that I think of them
Speaker 1: in my head like siblings, you know, not twins, siblings,
Speaker 1: and they all love to fight amongst each other, but
Speaker 1: if somebody else comes in, there will be like, wait, wait,
Speaker 1: let's just pause our fighting to like funk this one
Speaker 1: person because how dare they mess with us? And then
Speaker 1: that person leaves and then they go back to their fighting,
Speaker 1: and so it's like they all resemble each other with
Speaker 1: the world very big, um different and unique themselves because
Speaker 1: like Athens so much mocumentalization, like let's just build everything
Speaker 1: that's great, and we'll make everybody else pay for it too,
Speaker 1: Like we're not going to pay for it, We'll get
Speaker 1: it all our money from the Delian League because it's
Speaker 1: supposed to stop Persia again. But we're going to build
Speaker 1: our cropolis. Oh yeah, well. I think it also all
Speaker 1: comes down to this idea that you have until you're
Speaker 1: really deep in the studying of the history, like this
Speaker 1: overarching idea of Greece as a place right like we
Speaker 1: just it's really hard to wrap your head around what
Speaker 1: it was like back then because now we think of
Speaker 1: these places as like full comprehensive countries, you know, whereas yeah,
Speaker 1: they weren't at all united, Like there were different city
Speaker 1: states that united with other ones, but that also changed
Speaker 1: over time, and you know, everyone was so different. They
Speaker 1: had connections between them. I've just recently talked a little
Speaker 1: bit about like the Four Tribes too, So they were
Speaker 1: like united by these certain things, but they were still
Speaker 1: ultimately like really different city states with really different values
Speaker 1: and cultural ethos and like so many different things that
Speaker 1: made them completely different from one another. But now we
Speaker 1: look at it as this kind of one place, and
Speaker 1: then that just it just adds to this like ever
Speaker 1: growing confusion about what exactly was going on. You know,
Speaker 1: they're everywhere, depending on what region you're talking about and
Speaker 1: what time period too. And yeah, because they're so like
Speaker 1: the very they all they have like the identifiers, so
Speaker 1: they have like their cultural sort of like backing of
Speaker 1: what it is to be Greek, to be of that area.
Speaker 1: So they have like their shared um cultural history in
Speaker 1: terms of like mythical history, I guess, and then they
Speaker 1: have like a shared language, shared sort of like spirituality, religion,
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it. But then although that that,
Speaker 1: it's like they didn't have much contact with each other
Speaker 1: growing up, because Greece's is not an easy place to
Speaker 1: just walk around. It's really hard this like this tons
Speaker 1: of mountains and everything. So unless you're getting on sea
Speaker 1: and like moving around the ocean, it's it's it's hard
Speaker 1: to leave and interact with people in different areas well.
Speaker 1: And add to that like the islands and how much
Speaker 1: distance there is in between them. And then because there
Speaker 1: was no you know, um channel in the in the business,
Speaker 1: like you also had to navigate if you even if
Speaker 1: you're going by sea, and I all the way around
Speaker 1: the Peloponnese like that, it's just such a yeah, it's
Speaker 1: such a monstrous like undertaking to get anywhere. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: chore now and it's like the ferries flames and still
Speaker 1: it's like good, I want to go to this part
Speaker 1: of Greece, but it's the opposite end of the other
Speaker 1: part I want to go see. It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: it's I mean, it's I guess it's like similar to
Speaker 1: BC in a sense, like you have tried driving through BC.
Speaker 1: For we're very big. I mean we're bigger than Greece. Dude.
Speaker 1: My mom and my sisters and I drove across Um
Speaker 1: not all the way across Canada to Lake Huron to
Speaker 1: go to Wiki and it was like BC was like
Speaker 1: twenty hours to get from the Lower Mainland to Alberta,
Speaker 1: and then it's like you get to Saskatchewan and you're
Speaker 1: through within like six hours, and you're like, well, and
Speaker 1: then Ontario. You spent three days, four days driving through Ontario.
Speaker 1: If you make it all the way through, my god,
Speaker 1: it's just because of the natural environment. And that's sort
Speaker 1: of like I think one of the things that people
Speaker 1: don't consider too much or think too much when they
Speaker 1: think about Greece is they don't really realize just how
Speaker 1: disjointed and disconnected everyone was from each other and how
Speaker 1: that affects them as they're growing up, which is why
Speaker 1: we look at these individual city states over and whole civilization,
Speaker 1: you know, well kind of and yeah, fingers crossed. And
Speaker 1: also Greece was all over the place too, you know,
Speaker 1: like the Greeks weren't just in modern Greece, were everywhere too.
Speaker 1: Because they had no resources, they had to leave, like
Speaker 1: they couldn't feed all the people, so they sent people
Speaker 1: out there and they were colonizing up and down the
Speaker 1: Mediterranean because that's what you do. I guess um, And
Speaker 1: it's just that's I think, just one of the things
Speaker 1: that like you don't really realize until you kind of
Speaker 1: get deep into the study of it. So it's like
Speaker 1: you miss out on these like sort of like the
Speaker 1: geographical or like how your space affects your culture and
Speaker 1: how it's going to develop, as well as like just
Speaker 1: how sad the sourcing problem is, just how painful it
Speaker 1: is because it's like, man, we're getting nobody's perspective, Like
Speaker 1: we're getting barely any who can we trust? I know, man,
Speaker 1: I had to. I just had to beat some hsid
Speaker 1: for class, and I was just like, God, he's so grumpy.
Speaker 1: Man like this, someone just give him like a cake
Speaker 1: and pat him on the back and be like you're
Speaker 1: doing good, It's okay. Just give him some reassurance so
Speaker 1: we can take a break. Such a jerk. But like
Speaker 1: that's the thing, like that those are the sources we have,
Speaker 1: and we have to work within the confines, which is
Speaker 1: why you know, using other um, like different fields of
Speaker 1: study is great. I love talking to the archaeologists that
Speaker 1: I've met. There's so much fun and they're like look
Speaker 1: at this plate I found, and you're like, good, job.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful and you just you learned. I love what
Speaker 1: ar y'all just find it made me so happy. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: do I want to do it? I don't know, so
Speaker 1: I have bad knees. And then that's hard because like
Speaker 1: Sparta didn't leave much, so it's just like from all around,
Speaker 1: Sparta is just like, you know, flipping us off, being
Speaker 1: like you cannot know anything, and you're like, I would
Speaker 1: really love to please well well, And I think one
Speaker 1: of the things that blew my mind the most in
Speaker 1: and I learned this through talking to um the guests
Speaker 1: for the show, and like the I've mentioned it kind
Speaker 1: of in those episodes, but I recorded those episodes in
Speaker 1: the summer. I think you had started doing research. I
Speaker 1: had not looked at it yet because I was too
Speaker 1: busy with everything else from the podcast. So I recorded
Speaker 1: those episodes with the guests without any background knowledge, like
Speaker 1: at all. And and that was kind of great, honestly,
Speaker 1: because I think often I like to play the role
Speaker 1: of like the person listening and the things that they're
Speaker 1: learning in the moment too. But when of the things
Speaker 1: that really blew my mind is just this idea that
Speaker 1: like a lot of what we do think about Sparta.
Speaker 1: They wanted us to think, like it wasn't true and
Speaker 1: we don't necessarily have like archaeological evidence for it. We
Speaker 1: just have like sources that we're learning whatever Sparta wanted
Speaker 1: them to learn and like completely influenced not by necessarily
Speaker 1: what was actually happening at Sparta in Sparta except for
Speaker 1: maybe Xenophon, but but like what Sparta wanted people to think.
Speaker 1: And this idea that like after Thermopoli, which like I
Speaker 1: already knew kind of the more truth of Thermopola, but yeah,
Speaker 1: the idea that like after Thermopola, they basically looked at
Speaker 1: what happened, looked at how they were treated, and they
Speaker 1: were like, oh, actually things would be really really good
Speaker 1: for us in the broader world if people thought that
Speaker 1: this is how we played the game, Like if they
Speaker 1: thought that we were this brave and like you know,
Speaker 1: I mean they died, Like let's not pretend that they
Speaker 1: didn't have all that there Mopoli, but like this idea
Speaker 1: that they were willing to sacrifice it all that you know,
Speaker 1: three hundred Spartans stood up against what they call millions
Speaker 1: of Persians. Like obviously it's seen, you know as a
Speaker 1: kind of success even though it wasn't, because like that
Speaker 1: is inherently impressive if you were to believe what people
Speaker 1: are saying about it. Of course we get into it
Speaker 1: and it's like most of that is exaggerated, if not
Speaker 1: at right false. Right, there were way more than three hundred,
Speaker 1: certain like so many more, let alone all the hey lots.
Speaker 1: And then also they were definitely not millions of Persians,
Speaker 1: no questions. It's like my favorite meeting the Persian numbers.
Speaker 1: You're just like, okay, sure, I'll let yeah, you can
Speaker 1: see that, okay. Yeah. One of the things that one
Speaker 1: of the things that blew my mind talking to rule
Speaker 1: Um for the episode we did on on like the
Speaker 1: warfare and all of that aspect is like that and
Speaker 1: Herodotus seems to have presented this idea that they actually
Speaker 1: counted them really carefully and thus should be really accurate.
Speaker 1: But also like if there were as many Persians as
Speaker 1: they say, there would have been a column of Persian
Speaker 1: army like stretching all the way to Turkey and still
Speaker 1: in reaching Greece, but still in Turkey, because like how
Speaker 1: many people apparently were there, And you're like, okay, this
Speaker 1: is physically impossible. So it's it's so interesting. But like,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean to go back to the whole
Speaker 1: idea of like basically sparred us. Seeing the result of
Speaker 1: all of this and the way they were respected and feared,
Speaker 1: they were like, Okay, we're going to run with this,
Speaker 1: like we're going to make this our identity. This will
Speaker 1: benefit us, like fewer people will want to go to
Speaker 1: war with us. We will have a higher advantage when
Speaker 1: we do go to war because they're gonna be inherently
Speaker 1: afraid and think that we're gonna be better than we are,
Speaker 1: and like all these different fascinating things. But the idea
Speaker 1: that they did it on purpose is what I love
Speaker 1: so much. It's actually kind of genius, it is, you know.
Speaker 1: It's like I don't think they were particularly good at
Speaker 1: fighting compared to the rest of the Greeks. Quite frankly,
Speaker 1: I don't think they were anywhere near impressive. I just
Speaker 1: think they were really smart about how they did things,
Speaker 1: and like that served them great, Like they became essentially
Speaker 1: like the head of Greece for sometimes a short period time,
Speaker 1: but they still they did it though, and it's like
Speaker 1: we remember it so clearly and everything, and like even
Speaker 1: in later times, like Alexander comes in. Philip comes in,
Speaker 1: and Alexander comes in, and they're like messing around with
Speaker 1: the Greeks, trying to get it unto Macedonian control, and
Speaker 1: Sparta's like, no, I will not be Macedonian, and they
Speaker 1: kind of like, all right, you can kind of just
Speaker 1: chill there, and then I'm staying like the rest of
Speaker 1: the grease drawings with them, but they leave Sparta, which
Speaker 1: says like it says a couple of things, like obviously
Speaker 1: Smarta wasn't a threat at that I was going to say,
Speaker 1: mostly because they were not a threat, but like still
Speaker 1: look at them, going, oh, you're so cute, look at you.
Speaker 1: But like it's just fascinating. Yeah, it's Sparta. Sparta does that,
Speaker 1: and I think it's quite it's quite genius. I mean
Speaker 1: it worked for them, yes, And that's what's like, That's
Speaker 1: that's the thing, isn't it. If it works for at
Speaker 1: least for a bit, why not why not let people
Speaker 1: believe that, I guess, especially at that time, not so
Speaker 1: much now please have some But like it's the ancient
Speaker 1: Greek world. They were so ridiculous you've got to kind
Speaker 1: of just laugh at it. Oh and ridiculous. It's not
Speaker 1: just statement, but I know I was reading. I was
Speaker 1: trying to remember professor had told me this. I want
Speaker 1: to be saying that a lot because I'm bite deep
Speaker 1: into it. But a professor had told me that there
Speaker 1: was one point in The Persian Boy where Sparta was like,
Speaker 1: why don't we just build a wall like across the
Speaker 1: like block, yes, like the Helpanese, like by water, guys.
Speaker 1: Not the smartest idea, it's so funny. It's just sort
Speaker 1: of like, you know what, let's just abandon them to
Speaker 1: the Persians. And it's like, WHOA, Okay, I can understand
Speaker 1: some resentment from ath AND's side towards everybody else. That's
Speaker 1: your suggesting. You're just like leave them to burn. Good God.
Speaker 1: But I'm going to assume this is before the Battle
Speaker 1: of Salamus, which I think would have proved like what
Speaker 1: a bad or not bad idea so much as like useless,
Speaker 1: what a pointless idea. That's the thing with Sparta, though,
Speaker 1: It's like I don't think they were particularly geniuses. I
Speaker 1: think they stumbled into a lot of things really well,
Speaker 1: and when they saw an opportunity, like they opportunistic, almost
Speaker 1: saw an opportunity they ran with it, which is and
Speaker 1: it works for them for the most part, but then
Speaker 1: you get little bits like that and you're just like, what,
Speaker 1: how is that going to work in the long run,
Speaker 1: and it just makes you look bad within the wider
Speaker 1: like political sphere. I guess, like nobody's going to take
Speaker 1: you seriously after that. But yeah, well, one of the
Speaker 1: other things that surprised me so much in talking to
Speaker 1: guests about this is the idea that they also like
Speaker 1: really avoided war as much as possible, and as soon
Speaker 1: as you bring in the idea that like they did
Speaker 1: it primarily so that they could make sure that they
Speaker 1: were home to keep their heelots in line, but also
Speaker 1: just this idea that they basically like built up such
Speaker 1: a view around them as being so scary in battle
Speaker 1: that they could avoid battle entirely, like avoid proving or
Speaker 1: disproving it as much as humanly possible. But they also
Speaker 1: had so many like I forget which guest and how
Speaker 1: exactly they phrased it, but it was like this idea
Speaker 1: of like you could call them allies, but really they
Speaker 1: were like working for Sparta, like it didn't go both ways,
Speaker 1: Like they had so many regions like that they were
Speaker 1: kind of like under their thumb in a really specific way,
Speaker 1: and that like they would defend Sparta, but Sparta was
Speaker 1: not expected to defend them back. And just yeah, the
Speaker 1: way they made that work for themselves is so interesting.
Speaker 1: And while yeah, I mean, it's like it is brilliant
Speaker 1: in its own way, but you're right, I do think
Speaker 1: it's also like they stumbled into some of it, they
Speaker 1: thought up some of it. I also think that they
Speaker 1: had a really I don't want to say good, but
Speaker 1: I think they had a really interesting sense of self
Speaker 1: preservation that I think worked really well in some ways
Speaker 1: and really not well in other ways. The population, Like
Speaker 1: I just I don't I think it's I love Sparta
Speaker 1: and I've always loved Sparta, Like I think they're fascinating,
Speaker 1: and I like laughing at things, especially so if I
Speaker 1: find something that has it's easy to laugh at it.
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm fun with it. I'm like, this is great,
Speaker 1: get some giggles in. But I don't know, have you
Speaker 1: seen um Glass Onion and Knives Out Mystery? Okay? Do
Speaker 1: you remember at the point where they're like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: the whole plan is a genius and Blanche is just like, no,
Speaker 1: it's just dumb. It's just stupid. That is how I
Speaker 1: feel about Sparta, where it's just like you look at
Speaker 1: it and you're like, I'm srilliant. Yeah, they just stumbled
Speaker 1: into it and you're just like, oh, okay, they're just
Speaker 1: like in ways, it's like there's something. Yeah. I think
Speaker 1: they're smart and to a degree, but I also think
Speaker 1: they're just really opportunistic the chances when they got it,
Speaker 1: I mean, because they're not even in like thinking about
Speaker 1: like where they are in the peloponies, like they're on
Speaker 1: an okay spot, they're kind of in land, rememverything like yeah,
Speaker 1: and the hello, it's like what are they going to do? Well? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, their location is interesting because I mean
Speaker 1: they're kind of tucked in, but they are like compared
Speaker 1: to say, Okay or something like, they're pretty you know,
Speaker 1: close to the the sea to an extent, but they
Speaker 1: are just kind of I mean. Also, I would like
Speaker 1: to say, and I say this too much and like
Speaker 1: it probably really makes me seem less smart than I
Speaker 1: actually am. But I do base a lot of my
Speaker 1: memory points on how much I have played The Hassand's
Speaker 1: Great Odyssey. So the map that I am picturing. I
Speaker 1: know you'll think it's okay, I know that it's everyone else.
Speaker 1: It's a great map, and I haven't memorized, um so
Speaker 1: if I need to know where something is, I just
Speaker 1: have to think about that. And if it's not in
Speaker 1: the Assassin's Creed Odyssey map, well then I'm going to
Speaker 1: have to google it. Uh so here we are. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that's all to say, like it is an interesting location
Speaker 1: that they're in, and yeah, I don't know it's it's
Speaker 1: generally it is fascin to think about. And I think
Speaker 1: even with her appeal, I like it's a good example
Speaker 1: of um, of what you're saying of like kind of
Speaker 1: stumbling into it because it's not like I mean, not
Speaker 1: that they would necessarily set out to think like if
Speaker 1: we sacrifice all of our people will be able to
Speaker 1: use it to our advantage. But yeah, basically like everyone died,
Speaker 1: including one of their kings, like it didn't go well,
Speaker 1: and you know all of the things about like not um,
Speaker 1: you know, I think of the movie three hundred because
Speaker 1: I think that's where a lot of people, at least
Speaker 1: in North America like get their ideas for what three
Speaker 1: for what the Spartans were all about and like a
Speaker 1: lot of it. Sorry, can I just like pipe fast?
Speaker 1: Because I don't know if you know this yet. I
Speaker 1: still have never watched three really, Oh my gosh, so asleep.
Speaker 1: When movies get turned on, like within ten minutes, I'm
Speaker 1: passed out, unless it's like certain movies. But okay, how
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated. Then this is great. I actually love this
Speaker 1: so much because I think and I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people are going to be annoyed with how much
Speaker 1: I have brought it up because it is my whole
Speaker 1: reference point. Most people like, you know, I hope that's true,
Speaker 1: but I don't know. Then people that got nippy at
Speaker 1: me because my reference point for Atlantis was Disney and
Speaker 1: they're like, oh my gosh, she has no idea what time?
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, yeah, I'm kind of playing that role
Speaker 1: of like the every person like chill out. That's the
Speaker 1: point I'm not saying. I'm not that Yeah. And so
Speaker 1: so if you haven't seen three hundred, like what are
Speaker 1: your reference points on thromopli? Like what did you think
Speaker 1: about it before going to school? Like what is your
Speaker 1: whole deal there? Okay, so yeah, so me what my
Speaker 1: reference for Themopoli and Spartans increase in general if I
Speaker 1: haven't like, sort of experienced that much. So I am indigenous, um.
Speaker 1: And when we were younger, my mom, my mom did
Speaker 1: her best to try to keep us involved in things
Speaker 1: as much as possible. The thing is, i grew up
Speaker 1: on the West Coast um and I'm not a West
Speaker 1: Coast First Nations person. I'm from I'm an Ishinabe, so
Speaker 1: it's out east Great Lakes region and bit of Indigenous
Speaker 1: history of Canada in this episode, and I like it.
Speaker 1: And my grandma just got upset when all her kids
Speaker 1: were like moving out here, so she just packed up
Speaker 1: like my mom and the younger kids and moved everyone
Speaker 1: out here too. And now I grew up out here,
Speaker 1: people are like your first Nations, what are you rescuing? Hum?
Speaker 1: And I'm like no, and they're like what is that.
Speaker 1: I like, that's all we're talking. But my mom made
Speaker 1: sure that we were in stuff um um. That was
Speaker 1: really important for her, especially because when she was growing up,
Speaker 1: you know, like a lot of my aunts and uncles
Speaker 1: are not chill with the fact their first Nations And
Speaker 1: that was just because that was the culture at the time.
Speaker 1: It wasn't safe in a way. My mom, on the
Speaker 1: other hand, is very, very very fiercely um in love
Speaker 1: with her culture and her people in her history. She
Speaker 1: loved her mom um and everything, and she's very very
Speaker 1: proud to be First Nations and she works with First
Speaker 1: Nations people doing stuff. Um. She's just really like I
Speaker 1: really admired that about her, and she fought really hard
Speaker 1: to make sure that me and my sisters knew that
Speaker 1: we were First Nations, um, which included us going to
Speaker 1: things like Um. The thing that the Lobal Mainland does
Speaker 1: is that like students who are First Nations, they also
Speaker 1: have a First Nations counselor who sometimes takes them on
Speaker 1: special field chips. All right, So we would often go
Speaker 1: to like ceremony like how wows a pot? Latches and
Speaker 1: stuff and um. The fun thing about being a little
Speaker 1: little Native kid is getting to sit by all like
Speaker 1: the older like uncles or the grandfathers or whatever and
Speaker 1: listen to the stories and how they would tell us
Speaker 1: all these stories. It was really fun, but loved it.
Speaker 1: My sister, I have no idea how she She just
Speaker 1: likes reading, that's probably it. She discovered Egyptian mythology and
Speaker 1: she'd read all these stories and then she discovered Greek mythology,
Speaker 1: and she'd read all these stories. And what she would
Speaker 1: do is she would, you know, I would sit at
Speaker 1: her feet, look up at her, and she would tell
Speaker 1: me these stories off the way that our eldest told
Speaker 1: us stories at ceremony. And so that's kind of how
Speaker 1: I got into it. It's I kind of think backed
Speaker 1: off of my sister's obsession. Um today also was really
Speaker 1: excited because her name is Tonay and she learned who
Speaker 1: Donay was in Greek mythology and she was like, oh no,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, at least you're like hero son isn't
Speaker 1: completely an idiot like hers, isn't the worst one to have.
Speaker 1: And she was like, I don't like it. Like my
Speaker 1: mom then learned about the name and she was like,
Speaker 1: that is not who I named my child. Um So,
Speaker 1: I just kind of I was also a kid who
Speaker 1: read a lot, so I just read things all the time,
Speaker 1: like I think, I man, I don't even know. I
Speaker 1: just was beating all the time. I said, can't even
Speaker 1: I don't even know how I like first learned about
Speaker 1: spart I feel like it was a combination of Denay
Speaker 1: eating and me beating and stealing her books and beating
Speaker 1: her books. It's kind of just I think we just
Speaker 1: I just stumbled upon it at some point. I can't
Speaker 1: don't have a clear memory of it. I know, I
Speaker 1: you know, definitely when I was younger, I believed it's
Speaker 1: the sort of the thing everybody believes about it, And
Speaker 1: then at some point it was pointed out to me
Speaker 1: how weird that is, and I was like, yeah, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess. I guess that's what I'm so curious about,
Speaker 1: because like I obviously like knew about spart and stuff before,
Speaker 1: but just like all the different I guess. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've been saying it NonStop in this in this series,
Speaker 1: but like all the different things that make them weird,
Speaker 1: I think are really heightened. While they are definitely really
Speaker 1: heightened and like emphasized in three and a really interesting way.
Speaker 1: And there will be another bonus episode where I'm sitting
Speaker 1: down with Ben of the Classical Studies Memes for Hellenistic
Speaker 1: Teens to talk about the movie three hundred and all
Speaker 1: of its wild things. Um, but I do think that,
Speaker 1: like whether or not you, obviously, I think rational humans
Speaker 1: do not believe everything that is in that movie because
Speaker 1: it is nonsense, um obviously, like it is also super
Speaker 1: racist once you look at it later and I've seen
Speaker 1: the clips and I'm like help, fun, Yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: it's like orientalism in a movie. But like even ignoring that,
Speaker 1: that excuse me, Like even ignoring that, even ignoring like
Speaker 1: the really obvious problematic stuff, you get this idea of
Speaker 1: Sparta and and it does seem like pretty realistic. And
Speaker 1: what's so interesting about it, Like not only that, I
Speaker 1: think it did teach a lot of people what they
Speaker 1: think they know of Sparta, whether they believe it or not.
Speaker 1: Like what is fascinating about it is talking to people
Speaker 1: about it. Is like the a lot of the stuff
Speaker 1: in Sparta itself is true, like from the movie is
Speaker 1: true to the extent of ancient sources, but not true
Speaker 1: to the extent of like objective archaeological truth, which is
Speaker 1: so interesting. So like like the movie and like the
Speaker 1: graphic novel that it is based on, is really true
Speaker 1: to Plutarch and to Herodotus, like very very true to them,
Speaker 1: which is fascinating. But then so so that's what makes
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people think that the movie
Speaker 1: and the book are accurate because they work really heavily
Speaker 1: off of those two sources. But then once you know,
Speaker 1: you know, and you're like, well that Herodotous and Plutarch
Speaker 1: didn't actually know what they were talking about much when
Speaker 1: it comes to Sparta. Obviously, Herodous knew way more, like
Speaker 1: he had way more access points. He was actually from
Speaker 1: the right time period, like he was born during the
Speaker 1: Persian War or like two years after it or something
Speaker 1: something like that. His his like the generation before him,
Speaker 1: would have been the people fighting in the exactly he
Speaker 1: interviewed and he spoke to them. Yeah, so he had
Speaker 1: like a lot of real access points, but because of
Speaker 1: the Sparta of it all, he got a lot of weird,
Speaker 1: bullshit ideas. And so it's it is really interesting to
Speaker 1: think about it that way. And like I don't want
Speaker 1: to talk too much with movie, but as somebody who
Speaker 1: hasn't seen it, like, yeah, I was just so curious
Speaker 1: kind of like what you thought. I don't know, I
Speaker 1: don't know all of this started go ahead. I think
Speaker 1: I think I thought a lot of it. Um, I
Speaker 1: think it's seeped in to sort of my perception of Sparta.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I've seen clips, you know, of course I've
Speaker 1: seen like the Sparta memes and the little clips and whatever,
Speaker 1: because of course, but I didn't. I wasn't Like I
Speaker 1: honestly like when I was doing the search all this year,
Speaker 1: I was like, should I take a moment and like
Speaker 1: watch the movie and see what people think? Because I
Speaker 1: even like, I remember the one of the first things
Speaker 1: was like, how think about like how what people think
Speaker 1: of Sparta? And like how how true is that? How
Speaker 1: how does well does saddle line with um the Spartan
Speaker 1: and antiquity and reality? And I remember sitting there like
Speaker 1: literally called my sister. I was like, hey, what do
Speaker 1: you think of when you think of Sparta? And that
Speaker 1: I'm I'm the idiot for asking her because she was
Speaker 1: just like, oh blah blah blah blah blah. I'm like, right,
Speaker 1: never mind, you're not the person for me to ask,
Speaker 1: because you've read about I don't like you don't care,
Speaker 1: so like it seeps in. So I think I did
Speaker 1: have that sort of general like, oh, they're probably pretty
Speaker 1: good warriors kind of thing, not to the extent that
Speaker 1: they were, and so it was quite supposed to going
Speaker 1: in I'm just like, oh, look at these like it
Speaker 1: ancient Greece pulled through and they're just a bunch of
Speaker 1: stumbling little idiots, just like I love them to be. Like,
Speaker 1: I'm so happy that they just were like because I mean,
Speaker 1: like I think you mentioned in one of the podcasts,
Speaker 1: like whenever you play um Odyssey, you always side with Athens.
Speaker 1: They just I don't feel that right now, Okay, because
Speaker 1: now I think, yeah, I was first playing the game. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't remember, but I remember hearing that being like,
Speaker 1: how dare no, Oh we Sparta They're fun. They seem
Speaker 1: like they like to I don't know. I think I
Speaker 1: would love to see a Spartan party because I've heard
Speaker 1: what Athenian ones are like, and I wouldn't know. You
Speaker 1: would have never seen a Spartan party, Michela. Those were
Speaker 1: made for dudes and only dudes. I don't even think
Speaker 1: the Spartan's like had hit Tera in there that we
Speaker 1: know of, right, like they was, I bet they did.
Speaker 1: I think they were way more dude focused. Even they
Speaker 1: were hellots. They were slightly yeah, true slaves, but yeah
Speaker 1: potentially I mean like also because like they all ate
Speaker 1: their meals together, like that's fun. But it was like
Speaker 1: all the men in the one who it has that
Speaker 1: sense of like um keeping everyone together and of the
Speaker 1: same mind and sort of up of having each other's
Speaker 1: backs and in a way like you know, well, it's
Speaker 1: it's almost brainwashy though too, like it's cult like it's
Speaker 1: like an adoctrination exactly. Like I think that if you
Speaker 1: were to compare, yeah, if you were to compare the
Speaker 1: things that make a cult and make a cult successful
Speaker 1: to what Sparta did, Like it is really specific, like
Speaker 1: they were they intentionally kind of isolated them from their families.
Speaker 1: The men always had the dinner together with all the
Speaker 1: same men every single night, and it's like part of
Speaker 1: your culture and it's really ingrained that like if you
Speaker 1: are a Spartan, you do this, you know, And I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: they were. They were probably the one of the most,
Speaker 1: if not the most culti of ancient Greek city states
Speaker 1: in terms of like being a Spartan and what that
Speaker 1: required and like what was expected of you, because there's
Speaker 1: not a lot, there's no other where they were like
Speaker 1: you had to provide for the state. You had to
Speaker 1: have a farm that gave the state what it needed.
Speaker 1: You had you could not work your farm, you had
Speaker 1: to have it run by helots, like all these different
Speaker 1: things they were so required of you in order for
Speaker 1: you to be a Spartan. It's really interesting and unique.
Speaker 1: But I always wonder, like how much of that actually
Speaker 1: was the reality of the situation, because like, I think
Speaker 1: that's definitely what uh the image we get and the idea,
Speaker 1: but we don't get sparting voices, so we hear this
Speaker 1: sort of like spartan overall what was expected of them?
Speaker 1: But I wonder if it really was so Like it's
Speaker 1: hard because on one hand, it's like, yeah, that's why
Speaker 1: they were so short lived, because how the hell is
Speaker 1: that you can see the evidence of it. How is
Speaker 1: that like it just doesn't it wasn't it just failed
Speaker 1: miserably and beautiful at the same time. It was great.
Speaker 1: But like then it's like I wonder how much was
Speaker 1: like Okay, just let them, you know, maybe he doesn't
Speaker 1: want to maybe he wants to go home for dinner tonight. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, like I wonder what it was in practice
Speaker 1: and sort of some of the because yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I managine it was not like all like every single
Speaker 1: day without without fail, but I do yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: like from all the people, all the guests and stuff
Speaker 1: I've had on it seems pretty well accepted that like, nah,
Speaker 1: these parts of it, we're definitely like the things that
Speaker 1: made them weird because because they are very weird, like
Speaker 1: they're still very like like I've been trying to like,
Speaker 1: how do I how do I write this in a
Speaker 1: way that makes sense, because I don't know how, um.
Speaker 1: But it's like when I say, when I was describing
Speaker 1: them as like they're not really like what you'd expect
Speaker 1: of the Greeks, it's like they are and what it's
Speaker 1: like you look at them and they are objectively Greek like,
Speaker 1: but they're also so just strange. So well, yeah, And
Speaker 1: I think it's because are the broad like cultural east,
Speaker 1: definitely North America, but I think broadly in like the
Speaker 1: quote unquote Western world. Um that like the generally accepted
Speaker 1: under like just way of understanding Greece is through Athens,
Speaker 1: entirely through an Athenian lens. Like you think of ancient Greece,
Speaker 1: you think of Athens, and like that's not you know,
Speaker 1: that's in large part because of sourcing in and because
Speaker 1: of the people that studied it for a very long time.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think a lot of people are
Speaker 1: working to make it not all about Athens now. But yeah,
Speaker 1: like everything we think about the quintessential idea of like
Speaker 1: an ancient Greek is from Athens, from Athenian tragedy, from
Speaker 1: Athenian philosophy, it's all from Athens. M Yeah, It's kind
Speaker 1: of fortunate, I mean, and fascinating all the same. Getting
Speaker 1: a little bored of Athens. Yeah, no, man, And you know,
Speaker 1: I think it's also people are looking at different periods
Speaker 1: to like the classical period has been studying enough. I
Speaker 1: was reading reading an article about like archaic Sparta, like
Speaker 1: who were they before the reputation came along? And it
Speaker 1: was very interesting. I was really enjoying it. Um And
Speaker 1: there was a lot about just like song culture and
Speaker 1: I'm like, musical theater kids, That's just what I'm going
Speaker 1: to see though, music storytelling kids. But they didn't do
Speaker 1: the theater thing. Yeah, I mean, I'm dating a musical
Speaker 1: theater kid. At the amount of time he just like
Speaker 1: sings and like stairs and sing and I'm like, please
Speaker 1: please stop. I can't I can't stand it. Oh my god.
Speaker 1: I don't know how he puts up with me. But yeah,
Speaker 1: they were very very different. They were all just like
Speaker 1: more about singing and song and of course like exercise,
Speaker 1: because anywhere exercise. Yeah, but that's also the time period
Speaker 1: when they went in and UM annexed Messenia, So it's like,
Speaker 1: what's going on there, like why did they make And
Speaker 1: it was most probably resources man like they lived in
Speaker 1: a pretty fertile place. They could grow some food, but
Speaker 1: in general, also a grease is just badaction. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's hard. It's hard to find food and you
Speaker 1: need to feed a growing population, which it wasn't growing
Speaker 1: for long. Oh no. And then it just like went
Speaker 1: down hill and they were just like no, we're still
Speaker 1: spider guys and they're not. And then everyone comes into like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, they's so cute and they're like fear
Speaker 1: us poking them a little pin. So what is what
Speaker 1: is like the most fun I guess the most exciting
Speaker 1: thing you learned researching all of this. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: most exciting. Yeah, Like, and then I'll also ask you
Speaker 1: what's the weirdest, So don't feel like you have to
Speaker 1: pull out the weirdest. Now have you looked at Lakoni
Speaker 1: in art? No pottery is it weird? It's not super
Speaker 1: it's still like you still look at it and you're like, yes,
Speaker 1: that's Greek pottery but a bit different. Like Athens was
Speaker 1: very good. They're pottery and they're drawing, so we get
Speaker 1: all those because they're very pretty. But then you look
Speaker 1: at the Laconian stuff and you're like, what the And
Speaker 1: I want to put the pictures of them in the pomo,
Speaker 1: but I'm like, I can't find a good place for them.
Speaker 1: That's sketchy. But like it's just it's it's so interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you want to send me pictures, I'll just post
Speaker 1: them too. Yeah, I can do that, write that. Yeah, yeah, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's really interesting. No. I So I like really need
Speaker 1: to get further into the Peloponnese in one of my visits, um,
Speaker 1: but it's not easy to do unless you're driving, and
Speaker 1: I don't do that. So I've only yeah, I've only
Speaker 1: been as far as nap Cleo, which is not far enough,
Speaker 1: but it is in the Argo Lid, so I have
Speaker 1: at least in through the argolid H and I could
Speaker 1: see yeah, I could. You can from Napleo you can
Speaker 1: see the Spartan peninsulas. You can see like tettos and stuff,
Speaker 1: which is cool. At least I thought it was you
Speaker 1: can see big gas mountains, So in my head, I
Speaker 1: was like, that's yet, That's fine. It's it's somewhere over
Speaker 1: there in that general direction, big gas mountains in the Peloponnese.
Speaker 1: I don't Modern Sparta has a museum. They hold a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff in there, So yeah, I need go
Speaker 1: there in Olympia. Yeah, I just need to go to
Speaker 1: Grace again. Last time I was there, I was seventeen
Speaker 1: and I was with my Very Difference. That was the
Speaker 1: first time I went to Very Different. To the listener,
Speaker 1: we just talked about a bunch of random stuff and
Speaker 1: then cut it out. So we're pulling it back to
Speaker 1: talk about like, I mean, yeah, I guess early Sparta
Speaker 1: Bronze age um, and then also like maybe Homeric Sparta,
Speaker 1: so yeah, like yeah, what do you I mean, Bronze
Speaker 1: age everything, So just whatever, Bronze age for life. I love, like,
Speaker 1: I love the bonze age. It's fascinating death. I can
Speaker 1: waste the Bronze age next, I would. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: just the sourcing, man, But yeah, if you can handle
Speaker 1: all of that, do it up, and I'll do bettert
Speaker 1: this time because I'm highly critical of everything I do,
Speaker 1: and I can point out every little thing that I
Speaker 1: don't like how I did. In fact, I know, like
Speaker 1: one of my things is I'm going to be starting
Speaker 1: to write the episodes from the beginning of research. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's well that that's the big thing that um I
Speaker 1: do with the mythology. But like also because this is
Speaker 1: the first time we've really dived into history, like I
Speaker 1: didn't really know what the best way it was to
Speaker 1: do it either. Um yeah, one of the big things
Speaker 1: for me and why like every time people are like, so,
Speaker 1: how can you build up you know, how can you
Speaker 1: take more off of your plate in terms of the podcast,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, look, the number one time consuming thing
Speaker 1: is scriptwriting and I'm not going to give that up
Speaker 1: because it's like my whole personality. And it's like I
Speaker 1: can't just get somebody to research because there's no point
Speaker 1: they're going to do a ton of work that I'm
Speaker 1: not going to use because I read the myth and
Speaker 1: I write the script all in one moment, stream of
Speaker 1: consciousness nonsense, and so like it it just has to
Speaker 1: happen this way because that's how it works. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think doing the research while while writing.
Speaker 1: In hindsight, yeah, is a very is a smart way
Speaker 1: actually for things in terms of like, um, the thing
Speaker 1: the areas of like Greece, studying sutting Greek Greece, that
Speaker 1: I excel out a bit more compared because like, quite frankly,
Speaker 1: you are a bit much better mythology. If you don't,
Speaker 1: you don't give yourself enough credit. I'm going to say that, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm fucking queen of mythology. Thank you. I'm happy to
Speaker 1: Oh my god, are you kidding? But yeah, like when
Speaker 1: it comes to like history and stuff like, that's why
Speaker 1: I will. I am so happy to like read about
Speaker 1: that ship, and I'm like, I just got to start
Speaker 1: writing it from the beginning because of what happens is
Speaker 1: when you're ready to dive into it, it's all bitten
Speaker 1: there and you get to just go look at everything
Speaker 1: and read it all and then you change it into
Speaker 1: your voice and it's just so much easier instead of
Speaker 1: us both sitting here and going, oh my god, I
Speaker 1: know this has been This has been so much more
Speaker 1: difficult than I thought it was going to be. I've
Speaker 1: cried just a little bit, but I do not worry.
Speaker 1: I also the number one thing I've learned, and we're
Speaker 1: going to work it into next year. Um, and I'm
Speaker 1: happy for the listeners to hear this because I think
Speaker 1: this behind the scenes weird and interesting. But like we
Speaker 1: are not doing it in January? Like why I ever
Speaker 1: think that the darkest, saddest months right after the holidays?
Speaker 1: Like why I think that that is the best time
Speaker 1: to do a research heavy episode series where I completely
Speaker 1: step out of my comfort zone of mythology and I
Speaker 1: try to sound like I know what I'm talking about,
Speaker 1: Like why I keep thinking that January is the time
Speaker 1: to do that is so far beyond me. I have
Speaker 1: such bad seasonal depression. The holidays took everything out of me.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to be creative, let alone creative
Speaker 1: about something that is out of my realm. Like oh
Speaker 1: my god, and I want to scream. But then maybe March,
Speaker 1: but maybe we'll do Like it'll be like March or April,
Speaker 1: maybe April because exactly April doesn't have well, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: second quarter. The only reason I changed it is that
Speaker 1: March's women's Yeah yeah, so for my themes, we'll do it.
Speaker 1: April April will be our month for a series. Sad
Speaker 1: depressing month. We just put all the sad stories and
Speaker 1: by while working on or I just do like some
Speaker 1: more rears because sometimes I just want to cry. It's
Speaker 1: just like a class introduction. They're like, tell us about
Speaker 1: your favorite hobbies, and I was like video games crying
Speaker 1: it's me, yeah, no, it's I mean, it's it's such
Speaker 1: a struggle. And then also like the thing that keeps
Speaker 1: coming out of these special series and particularly this one,
Speaker 1: where like I want to share everything, but also I
Speaker 1: obviously can't and I don't have I still don't have
Speaker 1: the brain space or the time to do. Like I
Speaker 1: can work with all the research you've given me, but
Speaker 1: I still can't even refer to all of it because
Speaker 1: you found so much, I don't have time to look
Speaker 1: at all of it. And then also, um, like these
Speaker 1: scripts end up so much longer than my traditional script.
Speaker 1: Every episode that normally would be thirty minutes is at
Speaker 1: least forty five. Like that means that a script that
Speaker 1: would normally be like max five thousand words are all
Speaker 1: like creeping on seven thousand words. And it's just like
Speaker 1: the it's yeah, it has been a trial, It's worth it.
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated I love Sparta. I hope people are enjoying it,
Speaker 1: but also to be done, I was already looking at
Speaker 1: because I'm having such bad writer's block. I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: maybe I can work on a future episode, Like what
Speaker 1: is a really fun myth that I want to tell?
Speaker 1: Like what would give me joy in a way that
Speaker 1: I have not experienced it in a while? Like what
Speaker 1: would bring me joy? And I can't think of anything
Speaker 1: right now, but I'm I need to. I need to
Speaker 1: pull something. Yeah, I need to find joy. Where did
Speaker 1: it come? It's all gone, it doesn't exist anymore. No,
Speaker 1: that's fair. Yeah, I'm going to go back to the
Speaker 1: Bronze Age. Right, we were talking about the Bronze Age.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, because I love the Bronze Age. And
Speaker 1: that's also the thing that I find really interesting about
Speaker 1: Sparta is like one could argue Sparta is present in
Speaker 1: Bronze Age, at least Peloponnese. In Um people's were much
Speaker 1: more present in the Bonde Age than the rest of
Speaker 1: the mainland than the rest of the mainland. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that's and like that is where they get sort of
Speaker 1: like their cultural, sort of mythological understanding of themselves, right,
Speaker 1: Like you get the Homeric epics, which you know, just
Speaker 1: this point to a society that they were at any point.
Speaker 1: I don't think so, but to a degree, especially when
Speaker 1: you look at like Mycene and Mycene and culture, like
Speaker 1: it's fascinating. I love my scene. It's my favorite I've
Speaker 1: been to. Mycene is the most incredible thing ever. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, oh my god. Yeah, no, it was. It's
Speaker 1: so pretty man. And I don't know if the cistern
Speaker 1: is open anymore, it's still open. I walked down into
Speaker 1: it just a week. Yeah, yeah, I love it. Life.
Speaker 1: It was great. Yeah. I love dog places because they're fascinating.
Speaker 1: They're so interesting and they're present. And then you know,
Speaker 1: my other bondze Age Greek civilizations other than like you know,
Speaker 1: we have the people of like this the Claddic Islands,
Speaker 1: but then we have the Manoans, and they're so different.
Speaker 1: You can't like you can't really tie Athens to like
Speaker 1: Mycene and the way that you can tie Sparta to Mycene.
Speaker 1: And then certainly when you read like Neeliad and Homeric epic,
Speaker 1: Sparta's right there, like front and center is the main character.
Speaker 1: It's the theme in the Aliad, not think you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, like she's right there and where's Athens?
Speaker 1: Just a little breextension some way? What was it? Like
Speaker 1: the catalog of Ships? Just it's only yeah, there there's one.
Speaker 1: There's like just a yeah, a passing reference in the
Speaker 1: Catalog of Ships. And I actually, um, when I spoke
Speaker 1: to Joel Christensen, who studies Homer, he suggested that it
Speaker 1: also that could have been like a later edition when
Speaker 1: written down, Yeah, because like they really there was like
Speaker 1: there's not nothing in Athens in the Bronze Age, but
Speaker 1: there was like very little compared to the rest of
Speaker 1: the great Yeah. And Athens is interesting because it's one
Speaker 1: of the because it wasn't my my Senian. Um, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it wasn't Mycenean. I mean I think that also like
Speaker 1: Athens was my skin. Yeah, that was my there the
Speaker 1: acrocolist straight up as like Mycenean's sister and on it.
Speaker 1: That was their ship, that was their city. Okay, thoughts
Speaker 1: that I like, so I learned a thing and it's
Speaker 1: absolutely wild and I keep forgetting to like ever mention
Speaker 1: it let alone to you, But did you know that
Speaker 1: linear b A. I think it was linear being not A. Oh,
Speaker 1: I I know, but it'd be cooler if it was
Speaker 1: A because one of the two was found all the
Speaker 1: way on samoth Thrace. Yes, that's the face that we
Speaker 1: want here for the listener at home face. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: samoth Thrace is the furthest Island Greek modern Greek island
Speaker 1: in the northeast. It is so far from the places
Speaker 1: that were predominantly using linear A and linear B, so
Speaker 1: far in the middle of the ocean. It's tiny, so
Speaker 1: there there was not a big Bronze Age presence there
Speaker 1: at all because it's tiny. It would be so much work.
Speaker 1: But linear A or B has been found there and
Speaker 1: they did have like a pretty big archaic and classical presence.
Speaker 1: It was enormous and the Hellenistic period though, So that's
Speaker 1: the other thing is that it was biggest in the
Speaker 1: hell Anistic period, which is so late. But one of
Speaker 1: those two languages I wish I remembered, which has been
Speaker 1: found there in like a whole I think to like,
Speaker 1: it was like there's this um, there's this archaeological site
Speaker 1: that like you can't really access because it's it's in
Speaker 1: the They have a military base there because it's close
Speaker 1: to Turkey. Yeah, and so I forget that. I talked
Speaker 1: to a bunch of archaeologists there and they were telling
Speaker 1: me all about this. But yes, one of the two
Speaker 1: languages this is sorry, I just googled him. Outside of Crete,
Speaker 1: Cretan hieroglyphic writing has thus far been found only on
Speaker 1: the island of sammoth Wace in the north off Wait,
Speaker 1: but that can't be linear a then if there's, because
Speaker 1: that's the before before, well then you're a. Then was
Speaker 1: also found there because you know, it was one of
Speaker 1: the linears. But like sam of Race, it is tiny. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: oh my god, it's fucking crazy. Yeah, and so far,
Speaker 1: like it's so far from crete. Uh. In addition to
Speaker 1: over thirty locations on crete, objects with linarrey have been
Speaker 1: found on the Greek mainland in Palestine and Egypt on
Speaker 1: Kiss the Sick Ladies and samoth Race. Question Asia minor
Speaker 1: fucking anything? Oh my god, do we leave that? Yes? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Are you kidding? I kept learned that. I learned that,
Speaker 1: and I remember it blew my mind so hard, like
Speaker 1: everything I learned on samoth Race, but like I was
Speaker 1: a holy fuck And then I just kept forgetting to
Speaker 1: like share it ever, so I'm very yes. So the
Speaker 1: acropolis was a Mycenean citadel at some point, amazing at
Speaker 1: least from my knowledge. So do we kind of just
Speaker 1: generally use the term myceny and to refer to all
Speaker 1: Bronze Age and reigion. Yeah, they did get to they
Speaker 1: did get to crete, so they did know. I know
Speaker 1: they did because they like, yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. Like,
Speaker 1: do we know of other Bronze Age but like cultures
Speaker 1: that we wouldn't call myceny and that we're on the
Speaker 1: mainland in that area or that I know of, because yeah,
Speaker 1: the like it was pretty typical for mycene and people's
Speaker 1: to like build their citadels on high places because you
Speaker 1: could see around you. It was more easier to defend.
Speaker 1: And you see that, and like I think it is,
Speaker 1: like the late twelfth century, you see a lot more
Speaker 1: fortification of Mycenean sights, which you know suggests that there's
Speaker 1: some ship going on. They're worried about um, and you
Speaker 1: know it it blows up. But this is what I
Speaker 1: was gonna say about Mycenee and Athens. Athens is the one,
Speaker 1: one of the few. It could be the only or
Speaker 1: it could be one of the few Mycenean sights that
Speaker 1: stays active throughout the Iron Ages and into the Arcaic period,
Speaker 1: Like they're still they're doing stuff. And it's because most
Speaker 1: Mycenean sites aren't. We how potato, Like, you know, nobody
Speaker 1: lives in mycene A. It's not a bad place to live,
Speaker 1: and nobody lived there afterwards. Well, that's what's so interesting
Speaker 1: about learning about the mythology of the Peloponnese and this
Speaker 1: idea of the heraclyde I write and like the return
Speaker 1: of the children of Heracles with the Dorians, and this
Speaker 1: idea of a Dorian invasion, Dorian Dorian migration. What have
Speaker 1: you like is their way of using mythology to explain
Speaker 1: the historical thing that happened, which is that, yeah, like
Speaker 1: the palaces fell into disuse and we don't really understand why.
Speaker 1: And clearly they registered not necessarily like they didn't give
Speaker 1: it a why that they didn't use the palaces, but
Speaker 1: they give a why to at least the idea of
Speaker 1: like different people coming in and displacing or removing the
Speaker 1: people that had built the palaces. And the thing that's
Speaker 1: interesting then, I think is the discourse between Athens and Sparta,
Speaker 1: especially because when you think of like Athens found myth
Speaker 1: but um, you know, I'm terrible with names. Erect I
Speaker 1: always forget if it's Erectheus or Ethonius that starts it,
Speaker 1: but one of the two. Yeah, the snake, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and the and then being um a talk the Nous,
Speaker 1: the from the earth, and they were there before the
Speaker 1: Dorians came in. And then they sort of look at
Speaker 1: Spart and they're like, well, you're the descendants of those
Speaker 1: people who came in, so you're not actually of here
Speaker 1: um and whereas of themselves to talk to the nest
Speaker 1: I don't know their myth about it, but they were like, no,
Speaker 1: not only are we a talk to us, we are
Speaker 1: older than everybody else, which is fascinated. And then when
Speaker 1: you like look at that in comparison with like um
Speaker 1: Especial's like ovestes, like, I think this the episode of
Speaker 1: yesterday's episode today, what day is it? It's Friday? Never mind? Time?
Speaker 1: What's time? Constantly clips? But yeah, the promo you did
Speaker 1: for our episode press yeah, so that of him being
Speaker 1: before everything, So it's like you make some claim with that,
Speaker 1: and it's just you know, because like the Homeric and
Speaker 1: the old stories and the mythology that is. I mean,
Speaker 1: like I come from a culture that is myth based,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like are a history? Are stories?
Speaker 1: Are our way of view in life is told through myth.
Speaker 1: I describe it as like I grew up in myth
Speaker 1: so like I understand the impact of that and the
Speaker 1: importance of that. You understand where you are in the
Speaker 1: world based on these stories that you are told and
Speaker 1: are passed down. They get changed all the time because
Speaker 1: everyone has a different way of telling things. But it's
Speaker 1: just so interesting that for Sparta, their story has them
Speaker 1: coming in, but they do have these like there, Yeah,
Speaker 1: they do have all these other little workarounds though, because
Speaker 1: in addition to what you're talking about with the conversation
Speaker 1: with Maria Pretzler is I just recorded this mythology one
Speaker 1: and I was referring to I have this like big
Speaker 1: book on Heracles. It did not have anything on the
Speaker 1: hair Claude, which I found to be hilarious. But no,
Speaker 1: I have this, Yeah, I know, I have this book
Speaker 1: called Heracles by Emma stafford Um and it had a
Speaker 1: lot of great stuff on the hairclad eye thankfully, um.
Speaker 1: But basically they have all these different kind of workarounds
Speaker 1: to account for the fact that they are and are
Speaker 1: not a top finist basically, Like, so the arrestues thing
Speaker 1: was interesting, I didn't find like references to that beyond
Speaker 1: the conversation I had. UM. Obviously, I trust her, she
Speaker 1: knows what she's talking about. But um Essentially the other
Speaker 1: kind of workarounds are this idea that like, um, so Heracles.
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting even that Heracles has some kind
Speaker 1: of tie the Peloponnese. I've I've yet to figure out
Speaker 1: exactly how they constantly figure that out because he's from thieves.
Speaker 1: But like whatever, andywhere exactly Like it doesn't matter because
Speaker 1: Heracles and he. I mean, if you like comparative mythology
Speaker 1: is really interesting. You can find figures like Heracles and
Speaker 1: so like this, like trope of this, this kind of figure.
Speaker 1: You find them in almost all mythology system and especially
Speaker 1: in the endoing European one, like you can see them.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's essentially Heracles. And I don't know the
Speaker 1: Indian um pantheon very well, but they have a Heracles
Speaker 1: figure mm hmm two and it's yeah Heracles. Yeah, well
Speaker 1: that's the thing, and he's kind of all that mattered,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, basically it seems to me that like
Speaker 1: the idea is like, you know, so he was born
Speaker 1: in Thebes and his mortal father, so like he is
Speaker 1: the son of Zeus, but he obviously like had a
Speaker 1: mortal father too. He was married to his mother and
Speaker 1: Phitrion and Pitreon gets like kicked out of thieves and
Speaker 1: he goes and he like seems to take over Tyrans
Speaker 1: in the Peloponnese and then and then he's overthrown and
Speaker 1: so like a bunch of different things happened, but that
Speaker 1: this seems to be like the kind of tenuous link
Speaker 1: to the Peloponnese Um. But basically that is all to
Speaker 1: get around too. There is this like idea that, okay,
Speaker 1: so we want to be both children of Heracles and
Speaker 1: at least in maybe not literally a top finis, but
Speaker 1: like always there kind of thing. Um. So they have
Speaker 1: this idea that Heracles installed Tindarius like as a friend,
Speaker 1: and so then you get this connection between Heracles and Tindarius,
Speaker 1: who then gives you the connection between everybody else. So
Speaker 1: that like sure Helen and Menealists aren't necessarily related to
Speaker 1: the Heracles myth, but we have this way of like
Speaker 1: connecting them. But then the other means of understanding the
Speaker 1: Heraclyde eye and I couldn't figure out exactly how this worked,
Speaker 1: but basically there's like a there's some sourcing on um
Speaker 1: when the children of Heracles calmed down to like retake
Speaker 1: the peloponnese Um, at some point in the fighting arrestes
Speaker 1: his grandson dies and so yeah, but then so I
Speaker 1: couldn't tell the which side he was on. So I'm like,
Speaker 1: are you saying he's like with the children of Heracles
Speaker 1: you're linking that, or he's saying he's one of the
Speaker 1: ones who's killed when they come in, which you would
Speaker 1: think they wouldn't want to do that because then that
Speaker 1: would be negating the connection to like Helen and mentalists.
Speaker 1: And I'm not but like, if if arresting his grandson
Speaker 1: had no children himself, no direct heir, there could be
Speaker 1: an argument for, well, our grandpapa put your grandpapa on
Speaker 1: the phone, and now you're gone, so now we shall
Speaker 1: take the throne, Like I guess either, well, it's it's
Speaker 1: that And though if you make that, that's exactly the
Speaker 1: point that they're making, but with a different connection, which
Speaker 1: is that like no, yeah, the idea is that they
Speaker 1: killed off that line by killing Orestes his grandson. But
Speaker 1: what that does is negate the curse two, right, So
Speaker 1: like by doing that and like explicitly connecting with but
Speaker 1: and ending the line of Agamemnon at all, then you
Speaker 1: are getting an end to my famous, my favorite curse
Speaker 1: to talk about because I like to give it all
Speaker 1: of its names, so you know, the tant Lid curse
Speaker 1: and then the curse of the Pelopid Eye, and then
Speaker 1: the curse on the House of Atrius. You get to
Speaker 1: end all of that with this kind of connection, and
Speaker 1: and it's like further connection to Heracles because like yeah,
Speaker 1: like we're saying, ultimately, as long as you have a
Speaker 1: connection to Heracles, like it doesn't actually matter the rest
Speaker 1: of the story. And it's why like there's no details
Speaker 1: in any of it. It's just like Heracles came here.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to tell you when or why or how. No,
Speaker 1: he was here, and that makes us cool them, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I think also that it makes sense
Speaker 1: like Heracles is sort of like the every week's hero too.
Speaker 1: M he so Greek. Yeah, I mean he as long
Speaker 1: as you have a connection to Heracles, no matter where
Speaker 1: you are in Greek, that you have this exactly like
Speaker 1: your Greek, you're important. You're like kind of have this
Speaker 1: sort of divine like I've talked a lot about in
Speaker 1: this this myth episode, this idea of like like basically
Speaker 1: being the children of Heracles gives them like divine right
Speaker 1: to the land, regardless of being a talk finist, and
Speaker 1: it's like he is divine and he's not divine, but
Speaker 1: ultimately he is, like he is still the only hero
Speaker 1: that ever becomes like fully god. Um. Yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it is just generally interesting. I am broadly so fascinated
Speaker 1: by Heracles and the way that like everyone wanted to
Speaker 1: be connected with him in some way, and like the
Speaker 1: lengths they did and then the length that they would
Speaker 1: go to to get that piece is always entertaining, and
Speaker 1: like it's always feels like such a tenuous, like stretched
Speaker 1: out thread just to be like. But Heracles, he's he's
Speaker 1: one of us. Yeah, I mean, he gets adopted into
Speaker 1: so many different things, and he's one of those ones
Speaker 1: that sticks out to everyone. Hercules now but like sorta
Speaker 1: figures so much and sort of like the pan Hellenic
Speaker 1: myths of like Homer like the huge like the Iliad
Speaker 1: is huge, and everything leading up to it, and Helen
Speaker 1: and everyone like um Penelope is like fum the area,
Speaker 1: Like I know, they're so connected with Like I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like you have to think about Homer not as
Speaker 1: a myth, you have to think about it in the
Speaker 1: way they thought about it, which is that like it
Speaker 1: was basically history, like it was their history, they really
Speaker 1: and so it's not like any other myth, like I
Speaker 1: compared it to to theseus in in this episode in
Speaker 1: my myth episode, because like that is the difference, right,
Speaker 1: Like Spartans are descended of the heroes of the Trojan War,
Speaker 1: the Athenians. They've got theseus like get out of here.
Speaker 1: That's nowhere near as impressive. And so I also think
Speaker 1: that like for all the attock pon he gets you,
Speaker 1: they doesn't ultimately matter. They just be like, well that's fine,
Speaker 1: Like sure we're not a tocanus, but we've got Heracles
Speaker 1: and Mentalis on our side, so like it doesn't even matter,
Speaker 1: Like it completely negates any need for a tocany because
Speaker 1: our origins are the origins of the entire Greek world,
Speaker 1: the language, everything is tied up in Homer, and so
Speaker 1: it inherently is like the most important connection you can
Speaker 1: possibly have, dear culture, and how big a deal Helen
Speaker 1: was to like cultures other cities would look at well,
Speaker 1: we know what Athens looked at her, and then it's like, yeah, who,
Speaker 1: because like she was a big fucking deal in s
Speaker 1: parted they had the mental Aion and you know, it's
Speaker 1: probably where they went and like worshiped Menalis and Helen,
Speaker 1: and like they had like a certain like ceremonies specifically
Speaker 1: to do with Helen as well well. And they think
Speaker 1: that she was a huge deal. And they also think
Speaker 1: that the yeah, the mental aon Um was built over
Speaker 1: tau of an original temple that was just to Helen
Speaker 1: in the time when they would worship ladies a little
Speaker 1: bit more. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, and then um Euripides Helen.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because it's towards me. He's writing that towards
Speaker 1: the end of the Peloponnesian War, when Athens is getting
Speaker 1: the Athens is not in a great position at that point,
Speaker 1: and that Helen. It's so it's so it's such a
Speaker 1: kind treatment of Helen and there was an article of it.
Speaker 1: I think I sent it to you and I was like,
Speaker 1: you have to beat this. This is fascinating, um, but
Speaker 1: it had it pointed out like is there a little
Speaker 1: bit of like trying to soften some opinions towards them.
Speaker 1: They're being like, hey, Helen, she didn't do what we
Speaker 1: said she did. She was in Egypt the whole time
Speaker 1: being a good, good wife. She wasn't. She was good
Speaker 1: like at all. Just trying to ingratiate themselves a little
Speaker 1: bit with them. They're like, no, anything we said about
Speaker 1: her before in the past, she wasn't a lying, cheating
Speaker 1: or she was a good woman. Like it's so fascinating
Speaker 1: to think about. Yeah, why yeah, why now I like them? Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I had to I need a Sparta break. Whence
Speaker 1: this is all done? If anyone, oh my god, I
Speaker 1: just gonna like pterod actyls scream in their face. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna try to find the most fun like silly myth
Speaker 1: to get straight into. Yeah, I'm with good to get
Speaker 1: started on you search for next year. You don't have
Speaker 1: to start right away. You can take your time. I'm
Speaker 1: not worried. Um, so what, yeah, is there anything else?
Speaker 1: That you want to to talk about um in terms
Speaker 1: of Sparta and what you learned or whatever. I mean,
Speaker 1: this has already been a chill episode, so we also
Speaker 1: don't need to but want to give you that space.
Speaker 1: It's fair. Um No, man, I just like you know what,
Speaker 1: I was like, I loved Smarta going into it, and
Speaker 1: I was like, how am I going to feel about
Speaker 1: them coming out of it? I still love them, man, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just I just see them as so much more
Speaker 1: ridiculous than I first originally thought, which is what I hope, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, I hope people take from it. Is like,
Speaker 1: first of all, don't take everything so you know, don't
Speaker 1: take it all too seriously. It can be fun a bit.
Speaker 1: Some things are not fun. There was seeing how much. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there are some things that you know aren't fun. And
Speaker 1: you know, like learning, here's the thing. Learning is fun.
Speaker 1: If you learned something and it changed the way you
Speaker 1: viewed the thing before, don't be disappointed. Be happy because
Speaker 1: now you get to take joins it in a different way.
Speaker 1: And isn't that lovely and wonderful? Because I would never
Speaker 1: have looked at them and been like, man, these idiots
Speaker 1: stumbled into so many wonderful things their whole rain. It's
Speaker 1: like it's just like it's a level of genius that's
Speaker 1: only like you didn't do it. Like yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: it's not quite genius, but it's something fascinating, divine genius.
Speaker 1: Like it's just like getting an even more credit. But
Speaker 1: it's just like white Place, White time maybe too. Like
Speaker 1: that's and it's a good PR teams, man, wow, very
Speaker 1: good PR teams. And you know, it's just it's fun.
Speaker 1: I love it. Ancient ancient Greece is fun. You like it.
Speaker 1: I like it just a little bit, just a touch. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm a kind of a fan, just on a scale
Speaker 1: of one to ten, at least six. I'm a broadly
Speaker 1: I think, like vaguely interested, you know, in ancient Greece,
Speaker 1: I would say I'm interested enough. Yeah, my starry hoping
Speaker 1: I forgot the true there. This is a free and
Speaker 1: loose episode. It's also thankfully like my good way of
Speaker 1: like getting back into talking to other humans, because I'm
Speaker 1: realizing as I say this that next week I've talked
Speaker 1: to Natalie Haynes. So I'm oh my god, yeah she
Speaker 1: wasn't really one um. In any case, listeners, let's keep
Speaker 1: all this in u in nor of this thanks to MICHAELA,
Speaker 1: who just screeched at the news she knows I was
Speaker 1: recording this. I'm not sure why she's as quite as surprised.
Speaker 1: I don't think it was. I didn't know it was
Speaker 1: next week and knew it was coming, but I didn't
Speaker 1: know one of his. Yeah, just just wave at her
Speaker 1: for me. She doesn't know who I am. I will
Speaker 1: make that her. Thank you MICHAELA for joining me to
Speaker 1: talk wild spartan ridiculousness. Um, do you want to tell
Speaker 1: my listeners? Do you want them to follow you anywhere?
Speaker 1: Or do you want to stay You're not secret now?
Speaker 1: But okay, great, here's the thing I'll say. If you
Speaker 1: try to follow me on Instagram because my account was private,
Speaker 1: I will delete the good I wish I had won
Speaker 1: private years ago. Yeah, well you can. You can. You
Speaker 1: can forcefully have people and follow you. I'm also I
Speaker 1: have Sequela. Okay, well this is like I'm like, you
Speaker 1: can follow me on Twitter? Like that's fine, Okayally I'll
Speaker 1: like tweet something I don't. I don't pay attention to
Speaker 1: the internet. Is it is it just Pithia want to
Speaker 1: be or is there Okay, I wasn't sure there was
Speaker 1: like underscores or yeah, so wonderful. Well, we'll put it
Speaker 1: in the episodes description as always, Well, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for doing this. This is very fun. Your first
Speaker 1: appearance on the show, you wonderful nerds. If you hung
Speaker 1: around through that entire conversation, then I absolutely love you.
Speaker 1: Needless to say, we lacked in a structure, but it
Speaker 1: was fun, and I figured you all just mightn't be
Speaker 1: interested in how we've been doing this series, how MICHAELA
Speaker 1: and I worked together now that I'm no longer an
Speaker 1: entirely one woman operation. Michaela is also the face behind
Speaker 1: all the lovely promo videos that I post on social media, and,
Speaker 1: as you hear me say after every episode, she also
Speaker 1: runs the YouTube, which we're working to build up so
Speaker 1: that it contains captions of the podcast for greater accessibility
Speaker 1: and well, other than the very fascinating conversations I'll be
Speaker 1: having about the poet, I'll come in next week. This
Speaker 1: Sparta series is officially over. I cannot quite believe how
Speaker 1: much I have learned about Sparta, and also about what
Speaker 1: I learned about planning a research series of this podcast,
Speaker 1: which was primarily don't do it in January Live. Honestly,
Speaker 1: what on earth were you thinking. It's the worst possible
Speaker 1: month to have to do something that is so much
Speaker 1: harder than a regular job. But yeah, if you caught
Speaker 1: in the episode, or if I kept it in because
Speaker 1: I'm now I'm questioning myself. But we will probably be
Speaker 1: covering the Bronze Age, next Bronze Age, and it's so
Speaker 1: called collapse. That will be the next big special research
Speaker 1: series and it will be a good one. Not for
Speaker 1: a long while though, because back to mythology we go.
Speaker 1: Mythology and comedy. Stay tuned. Before long I will be
Speaker 1: diving into our third ever Aristophanes play. Let's Talk About
Speaker 1: My Saby is written and produced by Me Live Albert MICHAELI. Smith.
Speaker 1: As you just heard Her and all her Glory is
Speaker 1: the hermes to my Olympians and handles so many podcasts
Speaker 1: related things, from running the YouTube, to creating promotional images
Speaker 1: and videos, to editing and in the case of Sparta,
Speaker 1: Holy God's all the research. The podcast is hosted and
Speaker 1: monetized by iHeart Media. Help me continue bringing you the
Speaker 1: world of Greek mythology and the Ancient Mediterranean by becoming
Speaker 1: a patron where you will get bonus episodes and more.
Speaker 1: Visit patreon dot com slash smith Baby, or click the
Speaker 1: link in this episode's description. Thank you all for listening
Speaker 1: and for coming along for this wild and wonderful series
Speaker 1: on ancient Sparta. I am live and I love this ship.