Speaker 1: Oh well, hello there. Who would have thought I would
Speaker 1: be back here revisiting Atlantis so soon? This is let's
Speaker 1: talk about myths, baby, and I am your host live now.
Speaker 1: I am here today with something a little bit different.
Speaker 1: I'd originally intended for today's episode to start my new
Speaker 1: series on Aristophanes Desmaforia Zusai, but well that's been pushed
Speaker 1: to next week. It's a little bit because frankly, I'm
Speaker 1: taking a much needed week off, but it's more because, well,
Speaker 1: Atlantis is back in the so called news again, and
Speaker 1: I am here to remind the world why searching for
Speaker 1: it is not only a pointless endeavor, but one rooted
Speaker 1: in racism and white supremacy. Atlantis wasn't ever real. There
Speaker 1: is no debate about this amongst people who actually pay
Speaker 1: attention to the sources and the evidence and are educated
Speaker 1: in the ancient world. Plato made it up. He makes
Speaker 1: that super clear, and honestly, no one in the ancient
Speaker 1: world ever questioned it or ever believed it. They all
Speaker 1: knew what he was doing. I don't know why we
Speaker 1: can't wrap our heads around it. It was an invention,
Speaker 1: an allegory and narratological device to prove a point about
Speaker 1: tyranny and governing in Athens. There was no ancient apocalypse,
Speaker 1: no Ice Age civilization lost to time. There was no Atlantis.
Speaker 1: If there were again, there would be actually material evidence.
Speaker 1: And because it's not only this new documentary that's an
Speaker 1: air quotes, it's not a documentary ancient apocalypse that's claiming
Speaker 1: Atlantis among other third things, but also some YouTuber who
Speaker 1: doesn't care for actual evidence, and he's claiming it it's
Speaker 1: the eye of the Sahara. Right now, it is just
Speaker 1: going off. Atlantis is popping off. And so here I
Speaker 1: am to remind you all why just so many things.
Speaker 1: I mean, just wait, well you'll listen to it. Archaeologists
Speaker 1: are hiding something. That's what they're always saying, right, Why
Speaker 1: would they do that? It would make their careers if
Speaker 1: they were to prove it or share the truth that
Speaker 1: they're so apparently hiding. It's nonsense anyway. I mean, at
Speaker 1: least the claim about the eye of Sahara, this which
Speaker 1: is a natural formation, but it's seriously cool and beautiful,
Speaker 1: definitely not Atlantis, like at least it is on the
Speaker 1: right continent or like near it. At least someone's claiming
Speaker 1: it's Africa, though I know nothing about anything more about
Speaker 1: that argument, because again, what is the point. It's all nonsense.
Speaker 1: So in an effort to counter these new and exciting
Speaker 1: bits of extreme misinformation, I am here to remind you
Speaker 1: all of the Atlantis series that I created last year.
Speaker 1: It seems I was a bit of ahead of the game, actually,
Speaker 1: since Atlantis is now all over everything, so we're bringing
Speaker 1: it back. Today's episode is all three narrative episodes that
Speaker 1: were devoted to Atlantis, which originally aired in January of
Speaker 1: last year. I'm bringing them back to you. It's been
Speaker 1: a full year and a lot of people need a reminder,
Speaker 1: so hopefully this finds them. There's also been a recent
Speaker 1: episode of the CBC Ideas podcast which speaks about Atlantis
Speaker 1: in its current conspiratorial context, and it's super good. It
Speaker 1: even features one of the guests that I've had on
Speaker 1: my show, the wonderful Steph hom Hoffer, and a guest
Speaker 1: who will be appearing soon to speak specifically about ancient Apocalypse,
Speaker 1: John Hoops. I highly recommend that podcast episode as well.
Speaker 1: That's the CBC Ideas. I think the word Atlantis is
Speaker 1: in the title, so check that out if you want
Speaker 1: to know more about why it's in the news, relating
Speaker 1: to that Netflix show, which I will also get too
Speaker 1: soon after my much needed week off. Now, in this
Speaker 1: island of Atlantis, there was a great and wonderful empire
Speaker 1: which had ruled over the whole island and several others,
Speaker 1: and over parts of the continent. And furthermore, the men
Speaker 1: of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the
Speaker 1: columns of Heracles, as far as Egypt, and of Europe
Speaker 1: as far as Tyania. This vast power gathered into one
Speaker 1: endeavored to subdue at a blow our country, and yours,
Speaker 1: and the whole of the region within the straits. And
Speaker 1: then so long your country shone forth in the excellent
Speaker 1: of her virtue and strength among all mankind. She was
Speaker 1: pre eminent in courage and military skill, and was the
Speaker 1: leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off
Speaker 1: from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone
Speaker 1: the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over
Speaker 1: the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not
Speaker 1: yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us
Speaker 1: who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent
Speaker 1: earthquakes and floods, and in a single day and night
Speaker 1: of misfortune, all your warlike men in a body sank
Speaker 1: into the earth, and the Island of Atlantis, in like manner,
Speaker 1: disappeared in the depths of the sea. Let's talk about Atlantis.
Speaker 1: Oh Hi, hello, welcome, This is Let's talk about myths baby,
Speaker 1: and I'm your host, live here with the first ever
Speaker 1: special season of episodes. Because what else could I do
Speaker 1: if I was going to cover the story of Atlantis.
Speaker 1: If you're going to hear the story of Atlantis from me,
Speaker 1: you're going to hear about it the right way. The
Speaker 1: right way being well through the eyes of the actual
Speaker 1: ancient Greek sources. This is the first episode in a
Speaker 1: special series of episodes that I have been working towards
Speaker 1: for ages and ages and ages. It started way back
Speaker 1: in the day as me wanting to tell you all
Speaker 1: the myth of the lost Island of Atlantis. Like most
Speaker 1: of you, I grew up learning the idea that Atlantis
Speaker 1: was a myth, specifically a Greek myth in the same
Speaker 1: vein as the Minotaur and the Labyrinth or Homer's Odyssey.
Speaker 1: Popular culture has certainly led us to believe they're cut
Speaker 1: from the same cloth, that, just like the minotaur in
Speaker 1: the Labyrinth and Homer's Odyssey, come from a long tradition
Speaker 1: of oral storytelling that changed and grew more intricate as
Speaker 1: time went on before it was finally written down into
Speaker 1: what we have today. We're led to believe that, just
Speaker 1: like that Labyrinth and the Odyssey, Atlantis was a part
Speaker 1: of oral storytelling culture of ancient Greece. We're not meant
Speaker 1: to believe that there truly was a minotaur in a
Speaker 1: labyrinth on crete, or that Odysseus really did meet with
Speaker 1: the Cyclops Polyphemous, let Alone, Scilla and Charybdis, or the
Speaker 1: cannibal life dragonians. We are meant to understand them for
Speaker 1: what they were. Stories told by traveling bards over generations,
Speaker 1: changed and adapted to suit the regions where the stories
Speaker 1: were being sung, meant to hype up the people, to
Speaker 1: remind them that they were descended from great heroes of old.
Speaker 1: So surely, with how widespread an idea the story of
Speaker 1: Atlantis is, how often searches for the lost city are publicized,
Speaker 1: or how often maritime archaeological finds are attributed in granted
Speaker 1: non academic sources as being Atlantis itself. Surely due to
Speaker 1: all that it was a myth in ancient Greece, a
Speaker 1: story told amongst these ancient people. Surely it's at least that,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's even a Disney movie. Surely all of
Speaker 1: that means Atlantis was a Greek myth, that it really
Speaker 1: was in the vein of the Minotaur and the Labyrinth,
Speaker 1: or Odysseus and his Odyssey. Surely they're equivalent types of
Speaker 1: stories alas they are absolutely not. Atlantis is none of
Speaker 1: those things. And that's what makes it so interesting and weird.
Speaker 1: And we'll get there. Over the next three weeks, I'm
Speaker 1: going to be bringing you a series of special episodes,
Speaker 1: and by special, I mean well, I plan them in
Speaker 1: advance and set out to dedicate these three whole weeks
Speaker 1: to this story, this idea, this well, we'll get there.
Speaker 1: But it's also special because, well spoilers, Atlantis is absolutely
Speaker 1: not a Greek myth in any sense of the word.
Speaker 1: So for these episodes, the podcast is really better called
Speaker 1: let's talk about things Plato invented to make a point,
Speaker 1: But we'll get there. I've prepared some of the most
Speaker 1: research heavy episodes I've ever done for this podcast, diving
Speaker 1: into the original sources, the nonsensical notions that have spawned
Speaker 1: from those original sources, and beyond. We're gonna look at
Speaker 1: what the story of Atlantis actually is, what it has become,
Speaker 1: and the ramifications of that, because well, it gets darker
Speaker 1: than you could ever possibly imagine. And that's why I'm
Speaker 1: finally doing this. It's also why I'm covering Atlantis in
Speaker 1: the way that I am. There's nothing inherently wrong with
Speaker 1: being interested in Atlantis, with researching the original sources, with
Speaker 1: thinking about it in an ancient context. But over the
Speaker 1: past couple hundred years, interest in Atlantis and belief in
Speaker 1: Atlantis has shifted. It's now full of so called archaeologists
Speaker 1: who ignore the facts of the ancient world in order
Speaker 1: to fit the narrative they've already got in their heads.
Speaker 1: And even worse, it's full of conspiracy theorists who more
Speaker 1: often than not have links to dangerous racist ideologies, if
Speaker 1: not outright Nazism. Yeah, I bet you didn't see that coming,
Speaker 1: but hey, we'll get there. I've spoken with experts and
Speaker 1: archaeology of the region, as well as archaeological experts in
Speaker 1: pseudo archaeology that is something that presents itself as scientific
Speaker 1: and archaeological, but is in fact only looking to prove
Speaker 1: a predetermined belief. These are the people studying real archaeology
Speaker 1: and speaking out against these often racist pseudo archaeological endeavors,
Speaker 1: things like searches for Atlantis or ancient aliens, notions that
Speaker 1: seem innocuous, even funny until you realize what it all
Speaker 1: comes down to, straight up racism. Over the next three
Speaker 1: weeks and when we're bringing you six episodes plus two
Speaker 1: fun bonus episodes work, I'm so beyond I'm proud of
Speaker 1: These episodes are important and fascinating and their education that
Speaker 1: people can't easily find on their own. I'm so thrilled
Speaker 1: to be able to bring them to you. I have
Speaker 1: done all the hard work learning the truth, so you
Speaker 1: just get to learn it the fun way. I've been
Speaker 1: looking forward to this for ages, and I've finally been
Speaker 1: able to make it happen. Atlantis, guys, it's truly something else.
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you every tiny thing there is
Speaker 1: to know about the ancient concept of Atlantis and all
Speaker 1: the ways that concept has been taken to a whole
Speaker 1: other world. There is simultaneously so so much to say
Speaker 1: about Atlantis, even though ultimately from an ancient perspective and
Speaker 1: certainly from a mythological one, there is absolutely nothing at
Speaker 1: all to say about Atlantis. Intrigued, I certainly hope. So
Speaker 1: it is going to be a wild ride. Yeah. This
Speaker 1: is episode one hundred and fifty Deconstructing Atlantis, Part one,
Speaker 1: Finding Atlantis in the depths of Plato's imagination Atlantis? What
Speaker 1: do we all picture when we think of Atlantis? The
Speaker 1: first thing that comes to mind is probably the myth
Speaker 1: of a lost city within the depths of the sea, right,
Speaker 1: Or maybe you think about an incredibly technologically advanced civilization
Speaker 1: that was lost to an earthquake and a flood. Maybe
Speaker 1: you think about Thera, the island and Greece that was
Speaker 1: destroyed by a world changing volcanic eruption during the Bronze Age.
Speaker 1: What's left of it is now Santorini. Maybe you're like
Speaker 1: me and obsessively playing Assassin Screed Odyssey, so you're thinking
Speaker 1: of the final bit of the Atlantis DLC. Or maybe
Speaker 1: you simply think of the Disney movie Milo and all
Speaker 1: his dreams and schemes that were for so long ignored.
Speaker 1: At the absolute worst, you might just imagine that Jason
Speaker 1: Momoa movie Aquaman. But I would really prefer if you
Speaker 1: didn't think of that one at all. A kid kind
Speaker 1: of I hear that movie is really bad. It's pretty
Speaker 1: hard to have existed in the last century or so,
Speaker 1: at least in the English speaking world and not have
Speaker 1: a few thoughts and ideas about the Lost City of Atlantis.
Speaker 1: You've heard of it at least, or you've seen movies,
Speaker 1: TV shows, video games, books, and even documentaries about this
Speaker 1: famed lost city. With the amount we've all been inundated
Speaker 1: with Atlantis lare over the years, surely it must have
Speaker 1: been a very famous and important Greek myth right or
Speaker 1: a story or history. I mean, that's absolutely what I thought.
Speaker 1: I thought that right up until I went to research
Speaker 1: it for the show all the way at the beginning
Speaker 1: of last year. That's when I realized it was going
Speaker 1: to take more than just a standard episode. The quote
Speaker 1: I read at the top of this episode is one
Speaker 1: of the few ancient references to Atlantis. There is only
Speaker 1: one ancient source that really mentions Atlantis, only one, one
Speaker 1: single source. Take that in for a moment, because it's
Speaker 1: important before we dive too deep into sourcing and evidence
Speaker 1: and what it means for something to have only one
Speaker 1: surviving reference in the whole of antiquity, Let's go over
Speaker 1: the idea of Atlantis as it exists in the one
Speaker 1: single source in which Atlantis is ever mentioned. Over the
Speaker 1: next three Tuesday episodes, I'm going to be talking about
Speaker 1: the story of Atlantis from a number of angles. Like
Speaker 1: I said, we will go over what it means that
Speaker 1: it only has this one source, but today is focusing
Speaker 1: on the story itself and how it differs um well
Speaker 1: everything else I talked about on this show ever, particularly
Speaker 1: the mythology and storytelling and history. So what was the
Speaker 1: deal with Atlantis when it comes to ancient references? At
Speaker 1: least to start, I'll give you another direct quote from
Speaker 1: that source, because you won't know how much I like
Speaker 1: reading directly from sources. In fact, in today's episode, there's
Speaker 1: going to be a lot of reading from this source
Speaker 1: and breaking down what exactly the sources claiming, because, like
Speaker 1: I said, this source is all we have when it
Speaker 1: comes to Atlantis. As always, my sources are in the
Speaker 1: episodes description. In this case, you can read these whole
Speaker 1: pieces for free online I've linked to them. Our ancient
Speaker 1: source begins quote. Let me begin by observing, first of all,
Speaker 1: that nine thousand was the sum of years which had
Speaker 1: elapsed since the war which was said to have taken
Speaker 1: place between those who dwelt outside the pillars of Heracles
Speaker 1: and all who dwelt within them. This war I'm going
Speaker 1: to describe. Of the combatants on the one side, the
Speaker 1: city of Athens was reported to have been the leader
Speaker 1: and to have fought out the war. The combatants on
Speaker 1: the other side were commanded by the kings of Atlantis, which,
Speaker 1: as I was saying, was an island greater in extent
Speaker 1: than Libya and Asia, and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake,
Speaker 1: became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from
Speaker 1: Hence to any part of the ocean. Now you might
Speaker 1: have noticed that sounds nothing like the regular sources I
Speaker 1: read from. There's no singh zongie poetry or storytelling. It's
Speaker 1: no Homeric hymn, let alone Homer. That's because spoilers Atlantis
Speaker 1: doesn't appear in any Greek myths or traditional stories or
Speaker 1: epic poems or historical sources, or any sources that discussed
Speaker 1: things like mythology or storytelling, or epic poetry or history.
Speaker 1: Atlantis appears in just Plato, and in just one small
Speaker 1: section in the whole of play Pato's prolific surviving writings,
Speaker 1: Plato the Philosopher who lived between the fifth and fourth
Speaker 1: centuries BC. That's right, Plato, and only Plato, and only
Speaker 1: this one time in Plato. That is the million dollar
Speaker 1: point here, So tuck that in your brain pockets. We'll
Speaker 1: come back to it. This text by Plato the Philosopher
Speaker 1: was written in the form of a dialogue. This is
Speaker 1: how Plato framed his philosophical writings and theories through fictionalized
Speaker 1: conversations between people, the people themselves being both real and imaginary.
Speaker 1: Plato himself was rarely, if ever, a party in these
Speaker 1: fictional conversations, and they usually took place many decades before
Speaker 1: he wrote them, and included Socrates, who was Plato's teacher
Speaker 1: and mentor and who was long dead by the point
Speaker 1: of this writing. Or to remind you all, the joke
Speaker 1: coined by classics meme Guy Ben in a previous episode
Speaker 1: of this podcast, Socrates was invented by Plato to sell
Speaker 1: more philosophy the dialogues in question. The Timias and the
Speaker 1: Critius are from quite late in the grand scheme of
Speaker 1: Plato's writing, about fifteen years after one of his most
Speaker 1: famous works, The Republic, but they're quite connected with the
Speaker 1: Republic broadly. The Republic is Plato laying out his notion
Speaker 1: of what would be an ideal state. Now this is
Speaker 1: not a philosophy podcast, thank god, so we're not diving
Speaker 1: into that. But it's important because the idea of an
Speaker 1: ideal state and ideal society is revisited in the Timaias
Speaker 1: and in the Critius is then presented, in example, through
Speaker 1: the story of a war between prehistoric cities. Together, the
Speaker 1: Timias and the Critius make up the entirety of ancient
Speaker 1: writing about Atlantis, and Atlantis isn't even part of much
Speaker 1: of the former, which was concerned with a number of issues.
Speaker 1: The idea of Atlantis existing at all is briefly introduced
Speaker 1: in the Timias and fleshed out in the Critius, both
Speaker 1: works that present a dialogue between a few people. The
Speaker 1: Timaias comes as a response to socrates rehashing of the
Speaker 1: idea of a so called ideal state, which, like I said,
Speaker 1: is found in more detail in Plato's Republic. Basically, we're
Speaker 1: to believe that Socrates has just described his ideal state,
Speaker 1: but he thinks he maybe didn't tell it in an
Speaker 1: exciting enough way so when perhaps those around him could
Speaker 1: add to it. The least important man in these dialogues,
Speaker 1: a man named Hermocrates, says that Critius knows just the story.
Speaker 1: Critius agrees, introducing the story of Atlantis in the section
Speaker 1: I read at the top of the episode, before they
Speaker 1: agree that this story will actually have to come after
Speaker 1: Timias tells his bit about the origin of the universe
Speaker 1: and humanity. Thus, the majority of the story of Atlantis
Speaker 1: exists in the Critious dialogue that follows the Timias. The
Speaker 1: quota read at the very beginning is a part of
Speaker 1: the bit about Atlantis that appears in the Timias, and
Speaker 1: it acts sort of as like a teaser before the
Speaker 1: big story comes in the Critius. The biggest reason why
Speaker 1: this story of Atlantis is sometimes presented as historical is
Speaker 1: that Plato did use real people in his dialogues, or
Speaker 1: he used the names of real p bowl. The timeline, though,
Speaker 1: just doesn't check out. By the time he'd written this,
Speaker 1: Socrates was long dead like decades Dad, as well as Critius,
Speaker 1: who tells the story itself. He's also part of a
Speaker 1: line of Curtiuses, so it's debated who this was even
Speaker 1: meant to represent. And Timas meanwhile, may or may not
Speaker 1: have been a real guy or alternatively, the story of
Speaker 1: Atlantis is sometimes believed to be in the vein of
Speaker 1: oral storytelling, like I mentioned earlier, like Homer or he
Speaker 1: see it, except there's zero evidence for that either. No
Speaker 1: mention of Atlantis appears before Plato used it to make
Speaker 1: this point, and no reference exists in art or pottery
Speaker 1: or well anywhere. Next week I'll go into more detail
Speaker 1: about what all of that means today the story itself. Now,
Speaker 1: the other quote I've already read from is from the
Speaker 1: Critius where Plato, through the mouth of Critias, is about
Speaker 1: to really dive into Atlantis. So let's go over the
Speaker 1: details in that quote again. Critias says, quote, let me
Speaker 1: begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was
Speaker 1: the sum of years which had elapsed since the war
Speaker 1: which was said to have taken place between those who
Speaker 1: dwelt outside the pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt
Speaker 1: within them. This war. I'm going to describe of the combatants.
Speaker 1: On the one side, the city of Athens was reported
Speaker 1: to have been the leader and to have fought out
Speaker 1: the war. The combatants on the other side were commanded
Speaker 1: by the kings of Atlantis, which, as I was saying,
Speaker 1: was an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia,
Speaker 1: and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable
Speaker 1: barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from Hence to any
Speaker 1: part of the ocean unquote. Okay, So, first off, and
Speaker 1: most importantly, Critius here is saying that it's been nine
Speaker 1: thousand years since the story they're about to tell happened
Speaker 1: nine thousand years before Plato's time, which was early fourth
Speaker 1: century BC. So we're talking almost twelve thousand years from now,
Speaker 1: give or take. That's a really long time ago. Now,
Speaker 1: in defense of this, technically, the story being told by
Speaker 1: Plato through these dialogues, if it were real, would have
Speaker 1: taken place a few decades earlier, so not a big difference.
Speaker 1: But I want to make sure i'm giving you all
Speaker 1: the details. Okay, So it's been nine thousand years, and
Speaker 1: apparently there were two groups of people, one that resided
Speaker 1: within the Pillars of Heracles, and one that resided outside
Speaker 1: of them. Now, Plato is using ancient terms here, so
Speaker 1: let me break it down for you in terms of
Speaker 1: modern regions. The Pillars of Heracles refers to the Strait
Speaker 1: of Gibraltar, that narrow bit of sea between Spain and
Speaker 1: the continent of Africa. Libya, meanwhile, refers to much of
Speaker 1: North Africa. When it comes to Greek writing, basically, as
Speaker 1: much of Africa as they knew existed, they called it Libya.
Speaker 1: Now that is an necessarily helpful information, because we're about
Speaker 1: to discover that this story is also about the continents
Speaker 1: of Africa, Asia, and Europe changing pretty drastically. Case in point,
Speaker 1: according to Critias in Plato's Dialogue, Atlantis was an island
Speaker 1: that was greater in extent than Africa and Asia, an
Speaker 1: island bigger than Africa and Asia. Now, some people immediately
Speaker 1: say that this means he's talking about the America's No,
Speaker 1: the island is meant to be just beyond the Pillars
Speaker 1: of Heracles, not an Atlantic ocean away. As we'll get
Speaker 1: into in a moment. They simply did not have the
Speaker 1: capability to cross the Atlantic, and that is not what
Speaker 1: he is talking about. Yeah, so the supposed evidence is
Speaker 1: getting lesse and less believable. But let's keep going. Next,
Speaker 1: let's revisit the quote I shared at the very beginning
Speaker 1: of the episode from the tim I s the first
Speaker 1: time Atlantis is mentioned, because there's something important in there.
Speaker 1: In that dialogue, Critias says, quote, the men of Atlantis
Speaker 1: had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of
Speaker 1: Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far
Speaker 1: as Turinia. So, like I've already clarified, the columns or
Speaker 1: pillars of Heracles is the Strait of Gibraltar, Libya's North Africa,
Speaker 1: and this newly mentioned region Turinia. I'm assuming it is
Speaker 1: basically Italy. That's because the Turinian Sea is the sea
Speaker 1: on the western side of Italy off Rome. There's your confirmation.
Speaker 1: Plato is not saying that a city in the America
Speaker 1: has also controlled much of Africa and Europe in twelve
Speaker 1: thousand BC. That is quite simply absurd. These points make
Speaker 1: it very clear where Plato's critious says Atlantis was. According
Speaker 1: to the earlier quote, the island is just beyond the
Speaker 1: Strait of Gibraltar in the Atlantic Ocean, but the kingdom
Speaker 1: seems to have spanned North Africa all the way to
Speaker 1: Egypt and Europe, from the Strait of Gibraltar to Italy.
Speaker 1: This distinction is important for all the reasons I just said,
Speaker 1: notably because in the Timas as you heard earlier, we're
Speaker 1: also explicitly told that Atlantis was quote afterwards sunk by
Speaker 1: an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers
Speaker 1: sailing from Hence to any part of the ocean. But
Speaker 1: now that we know the region in question, let's go
Speaker 1: back to the Critious dialogue. Remember that last bit was
Speaker 1: from the tim As, the teaser to the wider story
Speaker 1: of Atlantis that's told in the Critteous. I know it's
Speaker 1: a bit confusing because these dialogues are named for the
Speaker 1: men in them, but both men appear in both dialogues. Basically,
Speaker 1: the tim As is about a lot of things to
Speaker 1: do with humanity in the beginning of it, with a
Speaker 1: hinted Atlantis, whereas the Critius is all about Atlantis itself.
Speaker 1: In both cases, it's a man named Critius who is
Speaker 1: actually telling the story of Atlantis, but also Plato invented
Speaker 1: the whole dialogue, Plato makes our lives very confusing. In
Speaker 1: the Critius dialogue, Critius explains the size and general location
Speaker 1: of Atlantis, but he also says something very important. He says,
Speaker 1: out this war, I am going to describe of the
Speaker 1: combatants on one side, the city of Athens was reported
Speaker 1: to have been the leader and to have fought out
Speaker 1: the war. The combatants on the other side were commanded
Speaker 1: by the kings of Atlantis. Okay, so again we're talking
Speaker 1: about twelve thousand years ago, making the time period straight
Speaker 1: up the Stone Age, and Critius is talking about the
Speaker 1: city of Athens. Huh. That sounds new, doesn't it when
Speaker 1: you think of the Atlantis we've heard about in pop culture,
Speaker 1: in movies and documentaries and wherever else you hear about Atlantis.
Speaker 1: But do you ever hear about not only Athens existing
Speaker 1: at the same time period as Atlantis, but Athens also
Speaker 1: going to war with Atlantis. I certainly never had. Mileo
Speaker 1: is not talking about Athens in that precious Disney movie.
Speaker 1: But before we get too deep into questioning the Athens
Speaker 1: of it all, first and foremost, when one hears twelve
Speaker 1: thousand years in the past, we should be asking, okay
Speaker 1: for real though, if this were a true story, how
Speaker 1: on earth do these people know of it? That is
Speaker 1: truly the million dollar question. So, according to the earlier dialogue,
Speaker 1: the Timus were told that Critius heard it from his grandfather,
Speaker 1: who heard it from his father who was a friend
Speaker 1: of so long the Athenian statesman, who heard it from
Speaker 1: some Egyptian priests who have, it seems, kept record of
Speaker 1: such things. Still remember, no other real text reference to
Speaker 1: Atlantis exists in Greece or Egypt or otherwise, or any
Speaker 1: visual representation for that matter. Continuing on with the Critius
Speaker 1: from here, Critius goes on to explain not anything to
Speaker 1: do with this mystical lost city of Atlantis, but instead
Speaker 1: he describes in g e detailed the prehistoric Athens that
Speaker 1: went to war with Atlantis. Because another spoiler, the entire
Speaker 1: point of the story of Atlantis is that they went
Speaker 1: to war with Athens, and Athens is actually the city
Speaker 1: to be emulated. Athens is the good guy and Atlantis
Speaker 1: is the bad guy. Unexpected, right, so Critias speaks about
Speaker 1: this prehistoric Athens, this Athens that supposedly existed twelve thousand
Speaker 1: years ago. Now let's hear about this extra ancient Athens,
Speaker 1: this neolithic Athens, which was quote inhabited in those days
Speaker 1: by various classes of citizens. There were artisans, and there
Speaker 1: were husbandsmen, and there was also a warrior class, originally
Speaker 1: set apart by divine men. The latter dwelt themselves and
Speaker 1: had all things suitable for nurture and education. Neither had
Speaker 1: any of them anything of their own. But they regarded
Speaker 1: all that they had as common property. Nor did they
Speaker 1: claim to receive the other citizens anything more than their
Speaker 1: necess serai food unquote mm hmm. Sounding less and less
Speaker 1: and neolithic, isn't it, But let's keep going. Critius goes
Speaker 1: on to explain that what's left of Attica, the region
Speaker 1: of Greece where Athens is, is very different from what
Speaker 1: it was back then. He suggests there was not only
Speaker 1: more land, but a more fertile land, but that many
Speaker 1: deluges happened in the intervening years. This is a way
Speaker 1: to link the story to actual mythological traditions of Greece,
Speaker 1: where the flood story featuring Ducalian Empire is a humanity
Speaker 1: origin story. If you're curious, I've linked to my episode
Speaker 1: on that story. In this one's description through Critius. Plato
Speaker 1: describes this neolithic Athens, saying that the Acropolis hill extended
Speaker 1: past the Panics, and too the Likabettus to other hills
Speaker 1: still in Athens. Now he describes how people lived, the
Speaker 1: temples and buildings. It's extensive, really, this description, and super
Speaker 1: familiar and detailed. It's almost as if it's modeled after
Speaker 1: the classical Athens in which Plato lived. It is still,
Speaker 1: he goes on. Once he's described in detail the visual
Speaker 1: representations of this prehistoric Athens, he finishes his introduction to
Speaker 1: these neolithic Athenians with quote, this is how they dwelt,
Speaker 1: being the guardians of their own citizens and the leaders
Speaker 1: of the Hellenes, who were their willing followers. And they
Speaker 1: took care to preserve the same number of men and
Speaker 1: women through all time, being so many as were required
Speaker 1: for warlike purposes. Then as now, that is to say,
Speaker 1: about twenty thousand. Such were the ancient Athenians. And after
Speaker 1: this manner they righteously administered their own land and the
Speaker 1: rest of Hellas. They were renowned all over Europe and
Speaker 1: Asia for the beauty of their persons, and for the
Speaker 1: many virtues of their souls, and of all the men
Speaker 1: who lived in those days, they were the most illustrious unquote.
Speaker 1: If this isn't classical Athenian propaganda with a dash of eugenics,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what is. Note not only the showy language,
Speaker 1: the excessive flattery, and the unrealistic and certainly a historical
Speaker 1: descriptions of governance, but also the complete lack of any
Speaker 1: king or official ruler. Athens, you see, ruled itself. And
Speaker 1: remember he still hasn't talked about Atlantis in any detail.
Speaker 1: But once he's laid out how brilliant and incredible and
Speaker 1: important and virtuous and illustrious and renowned and beautiful these
Speaker 1: prehistoric Athenians and Athens were, he determines he can move
Speaker 1: on to tell his listeners about their adversaries in the war,
Speaker 1: the kings of Atlantis. Before we, alongside Plato's Critias, move
Speaker 1: on to explaining Atlantis, He's got something to note real quick.
Speaker 1: Critias prefaces his story of Atlantis by saying, now, you
Speaker 1: guys might notice that the names I'm going to use
Speaker 1: to refer to the Atlanteans are Greek names, and you
Speaker 1: might think, whoa why is that? Well, Critias says, it's
Speaker 1: because so long who heard from the Egyptian priests who
Speaker 1: heard from who knows who, or maybe they read it
Speaker 1: in records that we have no surviving reference to anyway,
Speaker 1: So long read these names, but they've been translated into Egyptian.
Speaker 1: So then when he read them, he translated them into Greek,
Speaker 1: so you know, they sound Greek, even though we're talking
Speaker 1: about a totally different world and language and time period
Speaker 1: and whatever. Anyway, you know, f y I I guess
Speaker 1: is basically what Critias says. Sure, he goes on, finally
Speaker 1: diving into the story of this lost city of Atlantis. Interestingly,
Speaker 1: it begins with gods in a way the story of
Speaker 1: Athens doesn't, and I think this is notable. Athens Plato
Speaker 1: via Critius does introduce as the city of Athena and Hephaistus,
Speaker 1: because that's true to their cities mythological narrative, but he
Speaker 1: doesn't give them credit for everything in the way he's
Speaker 1: about to give Poseidon credit for much of Atlantis. Poseidon,
Speaker 1: mind you, Poseidon, the god whose stories primarily involve him
Speaker 1: assaulting women and little else. Poseidon, who notably lost the
Speaker 1: competition for the naming rights of Athens, where Athena beat
Speaker 1: him out to become the patron goddess of the city.
Speaker 1: That it is Poseidon in Atlantis versus Athena in Athens
Speaker 1: is not accidental or unintentional. So Critius tells us, Poseidon
Speaker 1: was given as his domain the region which would become Atlantis.
Speaker 1: They're on a mountain lived a man and his wife
Speaker 1: and their daughter Cleito. Poseidon, surprise, surprise, wanted Clito. Plato
Speaker 1: through Crittius tells us that quote Poseidon fell in love
Speaker 1: with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground,
Speaker 1: enclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making
Speaker 1: alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling
Speaker 1: one another. There were two of land and three of water,
Speaker 1: which he turned as with a lathe, each having its
Speaker 1: circumference equidistant every way from the center, so that no
Speaker 1: man could get to the island, for ships and voyages
Speaker 1: were not as Yet, he himself, being a god, found
Speaker 1: no difficulty in making special arrangements for the center island,
Speaker 1: bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth,
Speaker 1: one of warm water and the other of cold, and
Speaker 1: making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from
Speaker 1: the soil. Unquote Honestly, it should proof enough that this
Speaker 1: isn't actually a myth, simply because Poseidon is described as
Speaker 1: actually falling in love with a woman and working for
Speaker 1: her affection rather than straight up assaulting her, whereas in
Speaker 1: traditional mythology, one time he assaults a woman and then
Speaker 1: gives her a little freshwater spring as thanks. But suddenly
Speaker 1: we're to believe he's falling in love and giving a
Speaker 1: woman a specially built city. Please, though not remotely the
Speaker 1: point of today's episode, this is a good example of
Speaker 1: how this story is told, not like a myth, not
Speaker 1: like a piece of oral storytelling that's been written down
Speaker 1: or a hymn to the gods. It's being told to
Speaker 1: prove an unrelated point. We're told that Poseidon keeps up
Speaker 1: his building of this city with the help of a
Speaker 1: whole lot of kids that he has with Cleito, including
Speaker 1: five pairs of twin male children. Five sets of twins. Okay,
Speaker 1: so the oldest of the oldest sets of twins is
Speaker 1: a man named Atlas. He's where they get the name
Speaker 1: for the city, as Poseidon installs him as kind of
Speaker 1: the number one king. These children each ruled sections of
Speaker 1: the city with Atlas in the center, and they passed
Speaker 1: these onto their children when they died, and so on
Speaker 1: and so on and so on down generations. Atlantis were
Speaker 1: told was very rich in basically everything, or a calculm
Speaker 1: was big, a mysterious alloy that seems to have been
Speaker 1: a real thing, but also in this case is described
Speaker 1: as being lost. It doesn't really matter. The point is
Speaker 1: the city was rich, and what they were most rich
Speaker 1: in no longer existed by the time Plato is talking
Speaker 1: about this. Honestly, most of this doesn't matter from my point,
Speaker 1: but I know you all will be interested in hearing
Speaker 1: this description of Atlantis. Plato used a hell of a
Speaker 1: lot of words to make what is ultimately a fairly
Speaker 1: simple point, but we'll get there. The palace at the
Speaker 1: center of the city, where they most wanted to show
Speaker 1: off their riches, is described in this quote. At the
Speaker 1: very beginning, they built the palace in the habitation of
Speaker 1: the God and of their ancestors, which they continued to
Speaker 1: ornament in successive generations, every king surpassing the one who
Speaker 1: went before him to the utmost of his power, until
Speaker 1: they made the building a marvel to behold for size
Speaker 1: and for beauty. Continuing this description playto through the voice
Speaker 1: of courteous, tells us about some of the waterways that
Speaker 1: were built, because this city was meant to be quite
Speaker 1: connected with the water. It's an island, after all, and
Speaker 1: we're meant to understand that at this point many generations
Speaker 1: of Mortals have passed. And so he says, quote, they
Speaker 1: divided at the bridges the zones of land, which parted
Speaker 1: the zones of sea, leaving room for a single try
Speaker 1: ream to pass out of one zone into another. And
Speaker 1: they covered over the channels so as to leave away
Speaker 1: underneath for the ships. Unquote. Take that in. So we're
Speaker 1: now meant to believe they had try reams and ships
Speaker 1: twelve thousand years ago. Okay, Remember, the works attributed to
Speaker 1: Homer were written down probably in the seventh or sixth
Speaker 1: centuries b C, with the understanding that that had the
Speaker 1: Trojan War taken place, it would have been in the
Speaker 1: Bronze Age, so generally the eleventh or maybe twelve centuries
Speaker 1: b C. Meanwhile, this would have been the ninth or
Speaker 1: millennium BC, like the hundred century b C. E ish. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Moving on, Plato through Critius continues this description of Atlantis
Speaker 1: with an emphasis on wealth. It is all about how
Speaker 1: show we this city was, how exorbitant their wealth was,
Speaker 1: and how they showed it off. He speaks of a
Speaker 1: temple to Poseidon and Cleito that was cut off from
Speaker 1: everyone else, and another temple to Poseidon was quote a
Speaker 1: stadium in length and half a stadium in width, and
Speaker 1: of a proportionate height, having a strange barbaric appearance. All
Speaker 1: the outside of the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles,
Speaker 1: they covered with silver, and the pinnacles with gold. In
Speaker 1: the interior of the temple, the roof was ivory, curiously
Speaker 1: wrought everywhere with gold and silver and oricalcum. And all
Speaker 1: the other parts, the walls and pillars and floor they
Speaker 1: coated with orichalcum. The wealth and pride in that wealth
Speaker 1: is the point. From here Critius moves on to describing
Speaker 1: their military prowess, another instance where everything he talks about
Speaker 1: sounds a lot more like the classical period Plato's time,
Speaker 1: or maybe to stretch it, the Archaic period, than it
Speaker 1: does even the On's age little in the Neolithic period.
Speaker 1: Here's a bit to give you an idea. Quote the
Speaker 1: leader was required to furnish for the war the sixth
Speaker 1: portion of a war chariot, so as to make up
Speaker 1: a total of ten thousand chariots, also two horses and
Speaker 1: riders for them, and a pair of chariot horses without
Speaker 1: a seat, accompanied by a horseman who could fight on foot,
Speaker 1: carrying a small shield, and having a charioteer who stood
Speaker 1: behind the man at arms to guide the two horses. Also,
Speaker 1: he was bound to furnish two heavy armed soldiers, two archers,
Speaker 1: two slingers, three stone shooters, and three javelin men who
Speaker 1: were light armed, and four sailors to make up the
Speaker 1: complement of twelve hundred ships. Like I said, the technology
Speaker 1: here sounds pretty much like grease during Plato's lifetime rather
Speaker 1: than nine thousand years prior. But the most notable and
Speaker 1: relevant pieces actually the volume of Atlanteans that were said
Speaker 1: to make up their military. It's meant to stand in
Speaker 1: direct contrast to the explicit sit twenty people who lived
Speaker 1: in this utopian Athens at the same time, Athens was
Speaker 1: an ideal state run by the people, where everyone was
Speaker 1: happy and had what they needed, again with a dash
Speaker 1: of eugenics. Because it's Plato, but we get to ignore
Speaker 1: that right now. He meant it to be ideal, whereas
Speaker 1: Atlantis was this enormous military power with endless more people
Speaker 1: and wealth run by kings. The connection to the Greeks
Speaker 1: during the Persian Wars here is explicit. To Persia was
Speaker 1: the power with tens of thousands more soldiers, whereas Greece,
Speaker 1: and here explicitly Athens prevailed with their much smaller army.
Speaker 1: It is meant to be very similar as Athens will
Speaker 1: prevail in the war with Atlantis. Still, Plato through Critius
Speaker 1: doesn't spend too much time on their military. Their number
Speaker 1: and skill and weaponry is the point before he moves
Speaker 1: on to their leadership, another of his primary points. There
Speaker 1: are said to be ten kings of Atlantis, all descended
Speaker 1: from Poseidon, who each of their own regions to govern. Quote.
Speaker 1: Each of the ten kings in his own division and
Speaker 1: his own city had the absolute control of the citizens,
Speaker 1: and in most cases of the laws, punishing and slaying
Speaker 1: whomsoever he would unquote. In moving on, we shift to
Speaker 1: the cruelness is the point the absolute power of these
Speaker 1: kings as a direct contradiction to the Athens described earlier.
Speaker 1: All of this is meant to show a distinction between
Speaker 1: the two Athens was run by the people. It was beautiful,
Speaker 1: but not over the top. They weren't showing off their wealth,
Speaker 1: but living in a means that was appropriate to them,
Speaker 1: that kept the gods happy and the citizens comfortable and
Speaker 1: thriving amongst themselves, without the need for any king holding
Speaker 1: absolute power, not like Atlantis, which is full of hubrists
Speaker 1: and pride, and its people existing to be subjected to
Speaker 1: these ten kings, who could punish or kill whoever they wished. Still,
Speaker 1: though their wealth and absolute power was the point of
Speaker 1: the story itself, Plato does make clear that this didn't
Speaker 1: make them bad, at least not in the beginning. He says, actually,
Speaker 1: at first they were virtuous, and though they were exorbitantly
Speaker 1: rich in gold, they didn't care for it and in
Speaker 1: fact saw it as a burden. This is an odd contradiction,
Speaker 1: given he's just described their cities as being rich and
Speaker 1: decorated in a means of displaying that richness to everyone,
Speaker 1: but it's on purpose. He's clear here they were virtuous
Speaker 1: at least for a while, but over time they got
Speaker 1: caught up in their own hubrists, their greed, their wealth,
Speaker 1: and their power. The point being if they hadn't had
Speaker 1: those things to begin with, even if they had begun
Speaker 1: as a virtuous society, they wouldn't have had the opportunity
Speaker 1: to have the pride and the hubris and that greed
Speaker 1: take over. This next one is a long quote, but
Speaker 1: it's important. But they were sober and saw clearly that
Speaker 1: all these goods are increased by virtue and friendship with
Speaker 1: one another, whereas by too great regard and respect for them,
Speaker 1: they are lost in friendship with them. By such reflections
Speaker 1: and by the continuance in them of a divine nature,
Speaker 1: the qualities which we have described grew and increased among them.
Speaker 1: But when the divine portion began to fade away and
Speaker 1: became diluted too often and too much with the mortal
Speaker 1: and mixture, and the human nature got the upper hand.
Speaker 1: They then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly,
Speaker 1: and to him who had an eye to see, grew
Speaker 1: visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their
Speaker 1: precious gift. But to those who had no eye to
Speaker 1: see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at
Speaker 1: the very time when they were full of avarice and
Speaker 1: unrighteous power. Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according
Speaker 1: to law and is able to see into such things.
Speaker 1: Perceiving that an honorable race was in a woeful plight,
Speaker 1: and wanting to inflict punishment on them that they might
Speaker 1: be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their
Speaker 1: most holy habitation, which, being placed in the center of
Speaker 1: the world, beholds all created things. And when he had
Speaker 1: called them together, he spoke as follows, And well, that's it.
Speaker 1: That's the entirety of the Critious, the fictional dialogue written
Speaker 1: by Plato to discuss both in ideal society and one
Speaker 1: that begins ideal and then descends into hubris. It isn't,
Speaker 1: obviously the entirety of what Plato into ended to write,
Speaker 1: or even what he wrote at the time necessarily, but
Speaker 1: it's certainly all that survives today. And yes, it cuts
Speaker 1: off right before we hear what Zeus is about to say.
Speaker 1: The Timius and the Critius of Plato were meant to
Speaker 1: be part of a trilogy. The Timius survives in its entirety,
Speaker 1: describing the origins of the universe and humanity, and giving
Speaker 1: us just a hint of Atlantis itself. The Critius exists
Speaker 1: up to this point just as Atlantis is beginning to decline,
Speaker 1: when their civilization was becoming too hubristic, too full of themselves,
Speaker 1: to impious due to their own power and wealth, when
Speaker 1: the Ten Kings were becoming tyrannical, Zeus is about to
Speaker 1: punish them for it, and then the rest is lost
Speaker 1: or unfinished. Of course, we already heard at the beginning
Speaker 1: that Atlantis was lost to an earthquake, so the implication
Speaker 1: here is that Zeus is about to convene a meeting
Speaker 1: of the gods to discuss Atlantis, and they will eventually
Speaker 1: be punished with a city distry earthquake, presumably in the
Speaker 1: end sent by Poseidon himself, their father, as he's the
Speaker 1: god of earthquakes. But it seems not before they fight
Speaker 1: a war with Athens, because remember that too comes at
Speaker 1: the beginning of the story. The whole point of it,
Speaker 1: the entire purpose of this dialogue is to detail this
Speaker 1: perfect utopian Athens who would go to war against the
Speaker 1: increasingly tyrannical and hubristic Atlantis, this state that will be
Speaker 1: condemned by the gods. This is what's so fascinating to me,
Speaker 1: given what the idea of Atlantis is now. Atlantis was
Speaker 1: not the good guys. They were the bad guys. They
Speaker 1: were greedy, and they grew too powerful and too proud,
Speaker 1: and they were taken down by Athens in a war. Athens,
Speaker 1: who is meant to be this perfect ideal state. It's
Speaker 1: fucking wild what this story has become. There are just
Speaker 1: so many glaringly obvious reasons why this is just a
Speaker 1: story invented by Plato to make a point about an
Speaker 1: ideal society and how to run a city. It simply
Speaker 1: isn't about Atlantis being real or not. It's about making
Speaker 1: a point about their hubris and their leadership in comparison
Speaker 1: to that of the Athenians. It's presented simply in the
Speaker 1: way that Plato liked to present his theories as if
Speaker 1: they were real conversations. But not to worry, I'll break
Speaker 1: all of this and more down for you in the
Speaker 1: coming episodes. You don't have to take my word for it,
Speaker 1: because next week how Plato uses fictional storytelling us allegory
Speaker 1: for philosophical theorizing, we look at history, mythology, ancient text sources,
Speaker 1: and archaeological sources. But before that, on Friday's episode, I
Speaker 1: spoke with archaeologist Flint dibble all about Mediterranean archaeology, Bronze
Speaker 1: Age archaeology and earlier, and what we do know about
Speaker 1: what did and did not exist in the region in
Speaker 1: the on stage and earlier we talked about Plato and
Speaker 1: what it means that Plato is the only source to
Speaker 1: reference Atlantis, and well, we talked about the dangerous conspiracies
Speaker 1: that have arisen and why pseudo archaeology is more dangerous
Speaker 1: than it is silly. Oh nerds, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for listening. I'm so excited to bring you this special
Speaker 1: series of episodes. Atlantis is fascinating to me, but less
Speaker 1: so because of the story of the city itself, and
Speaker 1: more because of what it has become that will be
Speaker 1: the focus of much of the rest of this series.
Speaker 1: I realize it's different, it's not storytelling in the same way,
Speaker 1: but I think it's equally fascinating and I think you
Speaker 1: will agree. I've really struggled with how to cover Atlantis.
Speaker 1: I wanted it to be fun and silly, and I
Speaker 1: wanted to be able to tell you all the story
Speaker 1: before I dove into how it doesn't fit as a
Speaker 1: myth or history, or even really as a story from
Speaker 1: the ancient world. But the more I saw about how
Speaker 1: ideas of Atlantis has have devolved online, how many dangerous
Speaker 1: conspiracies abound, and how forcefully these believers will emphasize their
Speaker 1: misguided beliefs, the more I knew I couldn't do it
Speaker 1: that way. I had to come at it honestly, right
Speaker 1: from the top. The thing is, though, fortunately Atlantis is
Speaker 1: fascinating all the same. Plato's story is fascinating. The way
Speaker 1: it's misinterpreted and misunderstood is fascinating, and the complex lack
Speaker 1: of any evidence ever at all, of either myth or
Speaker 1: history is doubly fascinating. So I hope I made the
Speaker 1: right call when it comes to an entertaining and engaging story,
Speaker 1: But I know I made the right call morally, and
Speaker 1: not to worry. The future episodes will go much deeper
Speaker 1: into what it means and why it's important that I
Speaker 1: told the story in the way that I did. Next week,
Speaker 1: we'll learn what exactly Plato is doing with the critics
Speaker 1: and the story of Atlantis, and dive into what evidence
Speaker 1: exists beyond Plato. We'll talk about the history of the
Speaker 1: region and what the story tells us about itself, and
Speaker 1: the week after will cover what I've already mentioned, the
Speaker 1: ramifications of Atlantis, what it means to look for Atlantis,
Speaker 1: and the danger of some, though not all, of those searches.
Speaker 1: In the end, though, regardless of why people are looking,
Speaker 1: it all comes down to the same similar issues, because well,
Speaker 1: like I've said, it turns out it's dark as hell
Speaker 1: and has implications that you absolutely will not believe. If
Speaker 1: you're anything like I was. You just grew up with
Speaker 1: it in pop culture and thought it sounded cool, and
Speaker 1: sure it does, but it's become something else. Atlantis often
Speaker 1: represents something incredibly dark within humanity when it isn't just
Speaker 1: perpetuating pseudo archaeology and the danger of going looking for
Speaker 1: something you're already convinced exists. But hey, I won't try
Speaker 1: to explain all that to you. Now. That's literally why
Speaker 1: I spoke with these incredible archaeologists, because they know this
Speaker 1: better than I do. I just wanted you all to
Speaker 1: understand why I've handled it the way that I have,
Speaker 1: So stay tuned. There's so much more to come when
Speaker 1: it comes to Atlantis. It may not be a myth,
Speaker 1: but it is a wild ride all the same. But hey,
Speaker 1: I won't try to explain all this to you. Now.
Speaker 1: That's why I spoke with these incredible archaeologists, because they
Speaker 1: know this much better than I do. So stay tuned.
Speaker 1: There's so much more to come when it comes to Atlantis.
Speaker 1: It may not be a myth, but it is a
Speaker 1: wild ride all the same. Special thanks to listener Jade,
Speaker 1: who helped me with Atlantis research all the way back
Speaker 1: in January, before I realized just how much more I
Speaker 1: could put into this series and therefore set about procrastinating
Speaker 1: and putting it off for a full year. And to
Speaker 1: the incredible Sarah Richard, illustrator extraordinaire. You'll know Sarah's work
Speaker 1: from our book Greek Mythology, The Gods, Goddesses and Heroes
Speaker 1: Handbook and from our upcoming book Nextor of the Gods,
Speaker 1: which includes the illustration that led me to ask Sarah
Speaker 1: to illustrate the incredible just as used for this series
Speaker 1: and the promotion of it. Face palm Plato might be
Speaker 1: my favorite thing ever. Thank you Sarah and Jade, and
Speaker 1: thank you to all your listeners. You're the best. I
Speaker 1: am live and I love actual mythology. Now, different gods
Speaker 1: had their allotments in different places which they set in
Speaker 1: order Hephaistus and Athena, who were brother and sister and
Speaker 1: sprang from the same father, having a common nature and
Speaker 1: being united also in the love of philosophy and art.
Speaker 1: Both obtained as their common portion this land, which was
Speaker 1: naturally adapted for wisdom and virtue, And there they implanted
Speaker 1: brave children of the soil, and put into their mind
Speaker 1: minds the order of government. Their names are preserved, but
Speaker 1: their actions have disappeared by reason of the destruction of
Speaker 1: those who received the tradition and the lapse of ages.
Speaker 1: For when there were any survivors, as I have already said,
Speaker 1: they were men who dwelt in the mountains, and they
Speaker 1: were ignorant of the art of writing, and had heard
Speaker 1: only the names of the chiefs of the land, but
Speaker 1: very little about their actions. Oh Hi, Hello, welcome. This
Speaker 1: is Let's talk about Myth's baby and I am your
Speaker 1: host live back again in this special series of EPI
Speaker 1: eisodes to talk about the concept that is quite importantly
Speaker 1: and quite specifically not a myth and not really a
Speaker 1: story either, and definitely not history Atlantis, and yet it
Speaker 1: is a fascinating thing, not necessarily for the story itself
Speaker 1: or its general point, but for everything surrounding it, everything
Speaker 1: it has become, and all the ways it is completely misunderstood.
Speaker 1: And that is not to suggest that I am some
Speaker 1: special person for knowing the truth. Far from it. Like
Speaker 1: I said last week, like most of you, I was
Speaker 1: led to believe that Atlantis was, at least in part
Speaker 1: a myth. We all thought it was a myth, right,
Speaker 1: or the story meant to be believed, or maybe even
Speaker 1: something the ancient Greeks believed to be historical, like some
Speaker 1: of those odd moments in Herodotus. Growing up in the centuries,
Speaker 1: everything in pop culture and beyond suggests that Atlantis is
Speaker 1: at the very least a Greek myth, or maybe even more,
Speaker 1: maybe you grew up believing it really is a story
Speaker 1: of lost city, or even just could possibly be a
Speaker 1: lost city, all because well, we think it's a myth,
Speaker 1: and maybe, like Troy, it was a myth based in
Speaker 1: some vague sense of reality. Right Alas that is simply
Speaker 1: not the case with Plato's Atlantis. It is not a myth,
Speaker 1: and today's episode is devoted to that, or rather a
Speaker 1: deeper understanding of what Plato was trying to do and
Speaker 1: why that means it is not a myth, nor history,
Speaker 1: nor ever believed to be history, even by Plato. And frankly,
Speaker 1: all of that is totally enthralling in itself, trust me.
Speaker 1: But I'm getting ahead of myself before we get into
Speaker 1: the hy of it all. Why did Plato write this
Speaker 1: story of Atlantis? Let's recap last week? Because this idea
Speaker 1: of Atlantis, or rather the notion as it appears in
Speaker 1: both the Timius and the Critius dialogues, is incredibly complex.
Speaker 1: And I threw a hell of a lot of information
Speaker 1: at you in last week's episode. Fascinating, weird and bizarre information, absolutely,
Speaker 1: but there was a out of it all the same.
Speaker 1: So let's recap. The story of Atlantis appears exclusively in
Speaker 1: Plato's dialogues, the tim I s briefly and the Crittius. Primarily.
Speaker 1: The majority of the Timis is used to speak of
Speaker 1: the origins of humanity and various existential style philosophical musings,
Speaker 1: with a brief teaser of introduction of Atlantis. But the
Speaker 1: teaser is important because it conveys some of the information
Speaker 1: that's lost or unfinished in the Critius. It's in the
Speaker 1: Timius that we learned that Atlantis and Athens went to war,
Speaker 1: and that Athens prevailed, and that in the end the
Speaker 1: Atlanteans were punished by the gods who sent an earthquake,
Speaker 1: sending the island of Atlantis and the warriors of Athens
Speaker 1: into the depths of the sea, apparently in a spot
Speaker 1: that became so thick with mud that it was then
Speaker 1: made impassable. The Critius, meanwhile contains the details the description
Speaker 1: of this ancient Athens that existed at the same time,
Speaker 1: and all the details of the island of Atlantis. Between
Speaker 1: the two dialogues, this is all there is from the
Speaker 1: ancient world when it comes to Atlantis. Credas tells us
Speaker 1: of this island kingdom from nine thousand years before Plato's time,
Speaker 1: an enormous island bigger than Asia and North Africa combined,
Speaker 1: that sat just beyond the pillars of Heracles the Strait
Speaker 1: of Gibraltar and ruled a region next to Athens, southern
Speaker 1: Europe up to Italy and North Africa up to Egypt. Plato,
Speaker 1: through critics, prioritizes talking about a prehistoric Athens first, the
Speaker 1: version of which he says existed nine thousand years before
Speaker 1: Plato's time, yet coincidentally resembles a Platonic ideal of classical Athens.
Speaker 1: This Athens had everything and could possibly need. Its people
Speaker 1: were perfect and amazing and brilliant, we're told, and the
Speaker 1: city ruled itself via the people rather than by kings.
Speaker 1: It is, in essence an examination of Plato's theory of
Speaker 1: an ideal society. They pointedly do not have kings or
Speaker 1: rulers of any kind, whereas Atlantis had ten kings. This
Speaker 1: is directly related to the time period Plato lived in
Speaker 1: and what came before him, where kings and kingdoms were
Speaker 1: looked down upon in favor of what will be a
Speaker 1: short lived democracy. In Athens, that is an oversimplification, but
Speaker 1: basically they did not like kings. Ask any Greek tragedy. Plato, meanwhile,
Speaker 1: in the Republic, did a lot of theorizing about so
Speaker 1: called philosopher kings, but these aren't present in his somewhat
Speaker 1: revised ideal society, and the critious he seems to have
Speaker 1: decided that kings generally are a no go. They linked
Speaker 1: to tyrants because well that's where the word came from.
Speaker 1: As Athens went through a period of tyrannical kings, The
Speaker 1: word tyrannos is one of the ancient Greek words for king.
Speaker 1: This Platonic Athens is praised for its perfection essentially and
Speaker 1: also its size. There are twenty thousand people and they
Speaker 1: keep it that way, which is where the touch of
Speaker 1: eugenics comes in a perfect man Plato was not. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Plato through Crittius, moved on to Atlantis, with some epic
Speaker 1: mythological backstory that Critius tells of, but it isn't really relevant.
Speaker 1: The key bits are that Poseidon is much more involved
Speaker 1: than Athena and Hephistis were in with Athens, and ultimately
Speaker 1: Atlantis has ten kings with Poseidon's own blood who start
Speaker 1: out good and virtuous, though they have absolute power before
Speaker 1: they eventually intermixed too much with humanity and descend into
Speaker 1: hubris and impiety. Atlantis made the gods angry and Athens
Speaker 1: did not, so when they went to war, Atlantis was
Speaker 1: defeated by Athens and Atlantis was lost to the sea,
Speaker 1: to a muddy mess in the sea impassable from that
Speaker 1: point on, but sadly the details of that last bit
Speaker 1: are lost. Fortunately, though there's enough preamble to the conflict
Speaker 1: in both dialogues that we know they went to war,
Speaker 1: even though Athens had a much smaller population. They won,
Speaker 1: and the gods punished Atlantis for its hubris and tyranny
Speaker 1: by sending an earthquake that sent the city plunging into
Speaker 1: the sea. And we're told all of this was later
Speaker 1: learned by Egyptian priests who told the Athenian Solon, who
Speaker 1: told Critius grandfather, who told Critius, who then told during
Speaker 1: this discussion with Temius, Socrates, and some guy named Harmocrates,
Speaker 1: which was all an invention by Plato. Yep, wild ride. Indeed,
Speaker 1: this is episode oneifty one deconstructing Atlantis. What makes a
Speaker 1: myth Plato's allegorical Atlantis Atlantis was not a myth, nor
Speaker 1: was it history, nor was it anything beyond a notion
Speaker 1: invented by Plato to prove a philosophical theory. I'm getting
Speaker 1: that out of the way early and repetitively, because, like
Speaker 1: I said last week, as much as I would love
Speaker 1: to entertain the idea with you all, unfortunately it's gone
Speaker 1: too far past the realm of a fun idea to entertain.
Speaker 1: Today's episode is all about the fascinating ways in which
Speaker 1: we know it isn't a myth or history, because frankly,
Speaker 1: I find those things fascinating enough, and I know you
Speaker 1: will too. It's interesting the evidence we have, or rather lack,
Speaker 1: in contrast with the generally accepted beliefs of those whose
Speaker 1: only frame of references the modern idea of Atlantis, both
Speaker 1: both from pop culture and beyond. I count myself among
Speaker 1: that group, at least before January of last year, when
Speaker 1: I started digging. What I'm going to share with you
Speaker 1: all today won't convince any of the conspiracy theorists who
Speaker 1: want to believe in Atlantis. This series isn't for them.
Speaker 1: You can all stay away. It's for people like me
Speaker 1: who just didn't know. When I found out that everything
Speaker 1: I thought I knew but Atlantis was nonsense and that
Speaker 1: the only real ancient source was Plato, my mind was
Speaker 1: sufficiently blown and now I want to share it with you.
Speaker 1: So first things first, between today's opening and last week's episode,
Speaker 1: I've said quite often the Plato story of Atlantis as
Speaker 1: it exists in the Crittius is not a myth. But
Speaker 1: why is it not a myth? It may not have
Speaker 1: the same language style as the myths were used to,
Speaker 1: but it talks about Athena and Hephistus and Poseidon and
Speaker 1: a mystical world of old. So why does that alone
Speaker 1: not make it a myth. This is a good and
Speaker 1: important question because there is a distinction here. A myth
Speaker 1: is defined as a traditional story, especially one concerning the
Speaker 1: early history of a people or explaining some natural or
Speaker 1: social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events. The
Speaker 1: keyword there is traditional, and that is precisely where Plato's
Speaker 1: story of Atlantis fails the test of whether or not
Speaker 1: it is a myth. It fits the other characteristics. It
Speaker 1: is purporting to explain a natural phenomenon, it is purporting
Speaker 1: to tell the story of the history of the Athenian people,
Speaker 1: and it is purporting to involve supernatural beings the gods themselves.
Speaker 1: But it is not traditional. It's the difference between a
Speaker 1: Marvel movie and Homer's Odyssey. They've got similar characteristics, but
Speaker 1: only one is a myth. Myths of ancient Greece are
Speaker 1: stories that began as an oral tradition, songs sung of
Speaker 1: by traveling bards traversing the Greek world. The stories were
Speaker 1: told all around, changing and evolving and being adjusted for
Speaker 1: audience before they were finally written down into versions that
Speaker 1: survive today. This happened over many hundreds of years. That's
Speaker 1: why we have variations and chronological messes. We have stories
Speaker 1: of the same heroes from different regions or varying tales
Speaker 1: of origins. That's why so often I'm talking to you
Speaker 1: all about different variations, different sources, and what those sources
Speaker 1: do and do not say about certain characters. It's why
Speaker 1: we have the Iliad, but we don't have many of
Speaker 1: the stories that surrounded it, because they're from different time periods,
Speaker 1: and some survived while others didn't. That myths are traditional
Speaker 1: stories used to explain people, natural histories and beyond is
Speaker 1: exactly why I love mythology as much as I do,
Speaker 1: and why you all enjoy listening to my retellings of mythology.
Speaker 1: The myths of ancient Greece we've themselves together over a
Speaker 1: mythological time period, though not a perfect one, as we
Speaker 1: all well know. Heracles, though comes before the Trojan War,
Speaker 1: we know that stories of him existed before it, because
Speaker 1: in the Iliad itself he is referenced as having existed
Speaker 1: in the past. The home Eric came to Aphrodite de
Speaker 1: tales of how she gave birth to a Nius, the
Speaker 1: prince of Troy. It doesn't matter which of these was
Speaker 1: written first, just that these two distinct sources talk to
Speaker 1: each other. The story of Agamemnon, Clytemnestra and their children's bands,
Speaker 1: both the Iliad, the Odyssey, and all three of the
Speaker 1: Tragedians everyone talked about it. Details like these are both
Speaker 1: what makes these stories traditional myths of ancient Greece and
Speaker 1: what makes Atlantis simply not. It doesn't talk to any
Speaker 1: other myths. It isn't weaving in any characters beyond the gods.
Speaker 1: It isn't referencing anything that happened or would happen in
Speaker 1: myths that we know of, And in no traditional myths
Speaker 1: is it or anything like it ever mentioned. There are
Speaker 1: no mentions of Atlantis before Plato, not in Greece or Egypt.
Speaker 1: If one is meant to believe that these Egyptian priests
Speaker 1: who spoke to Solon knew the story of Atlantis, why
Speaker 1: would there be zero reference to it in Egypt? And
Speaker 1: why did Solon never tell anyone? If you wrote it down,
Speaker 1: as Plato says in his dialogue, why did no one
Speaker 1: read it and mention it to someone anywhere. Personally. I've
Speaker 1: spoken with some Egyptian priests who had a story not
Speaker 1: only of a lost island, but more importantly, a story
Speaker 1: of my city Athens, so great and powerful and virtuous
Speaker 1: nine thousand years ago. I would tell someone I would
Speaker 1: write it down. There would be some surviving evidence, either
Speaker 1: in original sources or someone mentioning the thing they heard,
Speaker 1: thinking of like the epic cycle. We know there were
Speaker 1: works devoted to the story before the Iliad, and after
Speaker 1: we know there was the Cypria and the Little Iliad,
Speaker 1: and beyond that we know there was an epic cycle
Speaker 1: devoted to Thebes. We don't know this because of the
Speaker 1: works themselves. We know this because people quoted those works later,
Speaker 1: and they cited their sources, so we know their sources existed.
Speaker 1: Were Atlantis ever meant to be a true story, at
Speaker 1: least one other reference beyond a fictional allegory invented by
Speaker 1: Plato would exist, or if not that, then a single
Speaker 1: reference would be found in visual representation, like say the
Speaker 1: pottery we have that shows Ajax and Achilles playing a
Speaker 1: game of dice while Athena watches over. There are multiple
Speaker 1: examples of this in pottery, but not in any surviving text,
Speaker 1: or alternatively, we have the Amazonomki itself. The War with
Speaker 1: the Amazons was absolutely a Greek myth, though we have
Speaker 1: little to know surviving text sources for it from the
Speaker 1: Greek world. We know it was an important myth because
Speaker 1: it was depicted everywhere on pottery and wall paintings and
Speaker 1: even on the parth and on itself. Yet no full
Speaker 1: detailed text source telling the story exists from that time.
Speaker 1: Were Atlantis meant to be believed to be history or
Speaker 1: even myth, there would be visual representations of it. That's
Speaker 1: true simply because there would be a reference to such
Speaker 1: a notable myth were it a myth, but even more
Speaker 1: so because Athens was so so high on themselves, they
Speaker 1: would have absolutely taken the opportunity to show off and
Speaker 1: advanced Athens from nine thousand years before. They would have
Speaker 1: leapt at the chance, were it a myth or believed
Speaker 1: to be myth or history, to scream from the rooftops
Speaker 1: that they were an incredible city, long long, long before
Speaker 1: even the story of the Iliad. Honestly, they would have
Speaker 1: put it everywhere. They would not have been able to
Speaker 1: shut up about it. Theseus is the perfect example of
Speaker 1: athens pride. He's an awful guy, but they still raised
Speaker 1: him up like a god because he was their hero.
Speaker 1: Athens love to look good. You can see it in
Speaker 1: countless Greek plays. And the fact that much of what
Speaker 1: we know about daily life and ancient Greece is because
Speaker 1: Athen's kept records. We know what went down in Athens.
Speaker 1: You should see the things they put on pottery, drinking
Speaker 1: games and sex parties and people just chilling out living
Speaker 1: their lives. If nothing from the story of Atlantis made
Speaker 1: the cut, it really says something. That's what makes it
Speaker 1: so different from myths, this story of Atlantis, but also
Speaker 1: quite specifically, what makes it different from a place like Troy,
Speaker 1: where we not only have the Iliad and the Odyssey
Speaker 1: and fragments of other epics, but we have endless visual representation.
Speaker 1: And yet still Atlantis is often compared to Troy. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about Troy. Troy's often used as a comparison for
Speaker 1: why maybe Atlantis is something to be found. We found Troy,
Speaker 1: so why not. There's a few issues at hand here. First,
Speaker 1: there is what I've just gone over, that the stories
Speaker 1: around Troy are myths, whereas Atlantis is not for all
Speaker 1: of those reasons I laid out, still I understand the
Speaker 1: desire to draw a line between them. They're both these
Speaker 1: epic sounding ancient places destroyed by war or natural disaster,
Speaker 1: or both lost to a mythical kind of history. Troy's
Speaker 1: mythology takes place in the Bronze Age, and we know
Speaker 1: that there were many great civilizations in the Mediterranean, including
Speaker 1: on that eastern coast of Turkey, where a mythical Troy
Speaker 1: would have been. There were people in those regions. They
Speaker 1: had cities and palaces and infrastructures. We know they were
Speaker 1: traveling the Mediterranean, trading and socializing with others in the region.
Speaker 1: We know all of that for effect. We have loads
Speaker 1: of evidence textual, anthropological, archaeological. We have written records, we
Speaker 1: have the palaces, we have graves, we have art. So
Speaker 1: just in that sense alone, the idea of Troy is
Speaker 1: completely different. It's like what Flint was saying on our
Speaker 1: conversation episode, working from the known, all the archaeological evidence
Speaker 1: for the Bronze Age Mediterranean and finding the unknown through that.
Speaker 1: But the easiest answer for why we have none of
Speaker 1: that for Atlantis is exactly what all the theorists say, well,
Speaker 1: if Atlantis was lost, then we wouldn't have it unless
Speaker 1: we found Atlantis, would we. Well, sure, except for one
Speaker 1: glaring issue. If we're believing Plato about Atlantis, we have
Speaker 1: to believe Plato about Athens too, and we do indeed
Speaker 1: have Athens. I've been there again. As Flint went into
Speaker 1: in our conversation episode from Friday, we know what was
Speaker 1: in Athens nine thousand years before Plato, and it was
Speaker 1: basically nothing. And even if we adjust the date, as
Speaker 1: some theorists like to do, and make it much more recent,
Speaker 1: maybe four thousand years before Plato, there's still nothing resembling
Speaker 1: the Athens of Plato's story, even the Bronze Age. Another
Speaker 1: few thousand years later, we have Athens, and there's a
Speaker 1: settlement there, maybe a palace even, but still the archaeology
Speaker 1: doesn't check out. Nothing fits because it isn't supposed to fit.
Speaker 1: Plato made it up. Learning that there was a prehistoric,
Speaker 1: ancient Athens at war with Atlantis in the story the
Speaker 1: original story is one of the things that really did
Speaker 1: it for me. I couldn't believe that I'd never heard
Speaker 1: that before. That everyone who talks about Atlantis as myth
Speaker 1: or reality just casually forgets that there's this glaringly obvious
Speaker 1: reason why history cannot fit the narrative. But then that's
Speaker 1: what makes so much of the belief in Atlantis a
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory. It's where the pseudo archaeology comes in. They're
Speaker 1: trying to prove the point they've already decided exists, so
Speaker 1: it's easiest to ignore what doesn't fit your narrative, to
Speaker 1: pretend it's not there at all. And just to cap
Speaker 1: it off, yes, Troy has been found, or what we
Speaker 1: have determined can be called Troy, but that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: there was a Trojan war. We haven't found any evidence
Speaker 1: of proof of the war, just like we haven't found
Speaker 1: any evidence of an actual labyrinth on crete, even though
Speaker 1: we have the palace at Canosos. And yet again, those
Speaker 1: are still myths, whereas Atlantis is quite unfortunately not Atlantis,
Speaker 1: as the prehistoric lost world only appears in Plato and
Speaker 1: only in the Timus, and the critis there are no
Speaker 1: stories or myths or history that interact with it. There
Speaker 1: are simply no other real references to Atlantis as a
Speaker 1: historical or mythical location at all, from anywhere or any
Speaker 1: time period in the ancient world, there's nothing. So if
Speaker 1: it's not a myth and it's not history, which we'll
Speaker 1: get into more later, then what is it. Atlantis isn't
Speaker 1: a myth or history. Atlantis is an allegor. Worry, Atlantis
Speaker 1: is an allegory, a thought experiment, and a philosophical one
Speaker 1: at that. An allegory is defined as a story, poem,
Speaker 1: or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meeting,
Speaker 1: typically a moral or political one. That's what Atlantis is.
Speaker 1: Of course, one of the first pieces of evidence that
Speaker 1: Atlantis isn't a myth or history should be the fact
Speaker 1: that it was written by Plato, philosopher who didn't write
Speaker 1: myths or history. But unfortunately that's often ignored or people
Speaker 1: say that Plato in this case was writing about a
Speaker 1: historical story, But why would he do that if that
Speaker 1: wasn't something he did, why would this be the one
Speaker 1: real story Amongst a host of philosophical writings that use
Speaker 1: fictional allegories as their plot devices. Plato used allegory and
Speaker 1: narrative storytelling through the voices of real, often long dead
Speaker 1: people in his dialogues, often as a way to make
Speaker 1: his philosophical points. It served as a way to explore
Speaker 1: theories and ideas within the context of a story he'd created.
Speaker 1: That's why the story of Atlantis isn't focused on any
Speaker 1: kind of heroic adventure and he's slaying of mythical monsters,
Speaker 1: or even say the wrath of a hero like Achilles.
Speaker 1: It is concerned only with these two ancient civilizations, who
Speaker 1: each serve as examples of opposite ends of the spectrum
Speaker 1: when it comes to rulership and what happens from that rule.
Speaker 1: It's an examination on what is the ideal way of
Speaker 1: leading societies and what are the harms of the alternative.
Speaker 1: What we've lost is likely a more detailed examination on
Speaker 1: how those ideas behaved during wartime, but what we have
Speaker 1: is enough to show that it was simply an allegory
Speaker 1: examining those theories on how best to run a city.
Speaker 1: In the story, Athens is the ideal society, not Atlantis,
Speaker 1: as much as it's depicted as a kind of perfect
Speaker 1: utopian now it was literally invented to be the bad guy.
Speaker 1: Is in that wild This version of prehistoric Athens is
Speaker 1: not meant to be taken as a real story, a
Speaker 1: myth or history. It is Plato examining what he considers
Speaker 1: to be the most important in a so called ideal society,
Speaker 1: people each serving a specific role, these roles working in tandem,
Speaker 1: the society ruling itself without a king, and adhering to
Speaker 1: a set and specific number of citizens at any given
Speaker 1: time whose blood remains pure. Of course, that's where we
Speaker 1: get to the inklings of one of Plato's major flaws,
Speaker 1: an interest in eugenics. The point is this Athens is
Speaker 1: Plato's ideal, and it serves as a direct contrast to
Speaker 1: his invented Athens. An ancient society that began wonderfully, began
Speaker 1: by the gods, was exceedingly wealthy, controlled their own people
Speaker 1: with an iron fist, ruled by kings. But because the
Speaker 1: kings have this absolute power, they can be corrupted. Some
Speaker 1: of the last lines of the Crittious describing Atlantis are
Speaker 1: out by such reflections, and by the continuance in them
Speaker 1: of a divine nature. The qualities which we have described
Speaker 1: grew and increased among them. But when the divine portion
Speaker 1: began to fade away and became diluted too often and
Speaker 1: too much with the mortal admixture and the human nature
Speaker 1: got the upper hand. They then, being unable to bear
Speaker 1: their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an
Speaker 1: eye to see, grew visibly debased, for they were losing
Speaker 1: the fairest of their precious gifts. But to those who
Speaker 1: had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared
Speaker 1: glorious and blessed at the very time when they were
Speaker 1: full of avarice and unrighteous power. The bit we're really
Speaker 1: looking at here is when the divine portion began to
Speaker 1: fade away and became diluted too often and too much
Speaker 1: with the immortal admixture. The idea is that the divine
Speaker 1: nature that Poseidon had given them as the original godly
Speaker 1: father of these people, became too mixed with standard humanity,
Speaker 1: and thus they became chainted. The king's descended into tyranny. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: because Athens had kept their population tightly controlled, they didn't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Plato's interest in eugenics isn't the point, but it is telling,
Speaker 1: given where the serious belief in Atlantis has gone over
Speaker 1: the past hundred years or so. Somehow, Plato's example of
Speaker 1: a tyrannical society whose blood became impure when it mixed
Speaker 1: with mere mortals has become the ideal utopian society for
Speaker 1: people who believe in pure bloodlines. It's as contradictory as
Speaker 1: it is dark and disturbing. Now the bits of the
Speaker 1: crittious dialogue that are lost, what would have come after
Speaker 1: this note about impurities would have described the war with Athens.
Speaker 1: We know this happened in Plato's story because it's mentioned
Speaker 1: in the teaser in the tim Ius. The destruction of
Speaker 1: the island followed, and the Athenian warrior class went with it,
Speaker 1: caused by the gods through a major earthquake and flood.
Speaker 1: But what we know first is that Athens won this
Speaker 1: epic war even though they had considerably fewer warriors and citizens.
Speaker 1: That too, is the allegory at play. Atlantis had a way,
Speaker 1: way bigger military force, but the ideal Athenian society defeated
Speaker 1: them all the same because of everything they've done to
Speaker 1: make themselves ideal. That is the point Plato is trying
Speaker 1: to make. Much like his other dialogues his philosophical writings
Speaker 1: in general, Plato invented a story to make this point.
Speaker 1: It's just that somehow this one story gets promoted or
Speaker 1: understood to be real and historical, whereas all of the
Speaker 1: other ones get a pass as fictions. In fact, Plato's
Speaker 1: habit of playing around with his storytelling goes beyond just
Speaker 1: the use of allegory. In the Temis and the Critous,
Speaker 1: he often forms his points in a way where you
Speaker 1: get the idea of he's having a laugh with it
Speaker 1: all that he's presenting an idea that is, on its face, unbelievable,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of the point. It's almost comedically untrue,
Speaker 1: and that was Plato's intention. That the story of Atlantis
Speaker 1: as it's presented in Plato's Criteous is entertaining and almost comedic,
Speaker 1: and it's telling is pretty evident when you read it,
Speaker 1: provided you're coming at it from a historical mindset. Translation
Speaker 1: helps too, because the old one I read in detail
Speaker 1: just now and last week is dry enough that you
Speaker 1: can miss what's behind Plato's words. Because I was reading
Speaker 1: so much of it, I had to go with that
Speaker 1: public demand translation. But in reading through a more recent translation,
Speaker 1: only from the last ten years or so, by Stephen P. Kershaw,
Speaker 1: you can get a better sense of Plato's intent. The
Speaker 1: book is in the episodes description and it's pretty good
Speaker 1: all around. Plato's use of word play overall contributes to
Speaker 1: how he intended his allegory to make his point. You know,
Speaker 1: in the Republic he even talks about making up stories
Speaker 1: and presenting them as history in order to help the
Speaker 1: audience believe your point, like he gave the game away. So,
Speaker 1: if you're a Plato and you want to tell this
Speaker 1: story in a way that's going to be accessible to
Speaker 1: your audience without it being so recent as to be
Speaker 1: distracting in its contradiction to known history, You're going to
Speaker 1: invent a world that is so far back in time
Speaker 1: that no one will question why there's no sign of
Speaker 1: it now, where the only records exist in the mysterious
Speaker 1: region to the south Egypt, a place even the Greeks
Speaker 1: were intrigued by since their history went so much further
Speaker 1: back in time than the Greek where there were pyramids
Speaker 1: that had been around for as long as any Greek
Speaker 1: had been visiting. Who better to hold the key to
Speaker 1: this story. You'll position your story so that it's coming,
Speaker 1: if third hand, through the voice of a man like Solon,
Speaker 1: who was considered one of the wisest sages of Athens
Speaker 1: during his time, and who had traveled to Egypt. Come
Speaker 1: up with a connection between your main character, critious and
Speaker 1: the character originally telling the story. So long that is
Speaker 1: both far enough in the past that you have a
Speaker 1: reason for why none of it can now be verified
Speaker 1: while still being legitimate like the wise Athenian statesman of
Speaker 1: the past. Keep with the lighthearted intro. Tell your audience
Speaker 1: that the reason all this knowledge and history was lost
Speaker 1: even though Athens remained is that. Jeez, what an unfortunate coincidence.
Speaker 1: The only people that survived all this time were illiterate
Speaker 1: people in the mountains. What do you know? They literally
Speaker 1: couldn't write it down. Ha ha. Your audience will laugh.
Speaker 1: A convenient reason for a lack of record, This Plato
Speaker 1: is very clever, they'll think. Now onto the ancient island
Speaker 1: being invented. You're telling the story of how Hubris with
Speaker 1: a dash of impure blood, caused the downfall of this
Speaker 1: ancient society. So you need a protagonist and an antagonist.
Speaker 1: Both you, as the creator and your storyteller are famous Athenians,
Speaker 1: so obviously Athens is going to be your protagonist. Athens
Speaker 1: is the best after all. So first you're gonna lay
Speaker 1: out the good guys, the Athenians and what makes them
Speaker 1: so ideal. You want to remind your audience that this
Speaker 1: is the Athens they know now, but so long a
Speaker 1: go they can suspend their disbelief that it is run
Speaker 1: so differently from the current Athens. Still, you want to
Speaker 1: drill home the Athens of it all. So you're going
Speaker 1: to mention the Acropolis hill and the Temple of Athena.
Speaker 1: Really harp on this utopian Athens. You love your city
Speaker 1: so much, why not imagine into a big, beautiful past.
Speaker 1: Tell everyone how perfect the system was, how great the
Speaker 1: people were. Make sure you mentioned Athena. Everyone loves Athena.
Speaker 1: Tell everyone how fertile the land was and how much
Speaker 1: more space they had back then for agriculture. But wait,
Speaker 1: don't just say that. You need to explain why the
Speaker 1: landmass has changed. Toss in some good geological science, erosion
Speaker 1: and the like. Make sure you sound super smart. You're
Speaker 1: a serious philosopher after all. Moving on, before you lay
Speaker 1: out the bad guys, you want to toss in a
Speaker 1: kind of nudge nudge, wink wink to your audience. Explain
Speaker 1: why all the names your audience is about to hear
Speaker 1: are names they'll recognize. Tell them that. Yeah, it might
Speaker 1: seem unbelievable. Sure that all these names are Greek, but
Speaker 1: that doesn't make your story false. No, you've got an explanation.
Speaker 1: It's because these names have been translated twice. Your audience
Speaker 1: will have a little chuckle at this. Ha ha, how convenient.
Speaker 1: This will also help your audience, except that the story
Speaker 1: revolves around your own deities, a point that also helps
Speaker 1: ground it. Athena has Athens now, so it checks out
Speaker 1: that you'd have it back then too. Once your audience
Speaker 1: has sufficiently appreciated your clever joke, you want to lay
Speaker 1: out the bad guys, the ones who are going to
Speaker 1: start out sounding great. Their children of gods. That makes
Speaker 1: them different enough from your audience and the history of
Speaker 1: the region so as to make them and other a
Speaker 1: group you can then easily demonize later in your story. Barbarians.
Speaker 1: You're gonna want to over describe the details here, really
Speaker 1: paint a picture for your audience so they grow interested
Speaker 1: in your story and thus your eventual point. You'll draw
Speaker 1: on the regions, you know, the circular settlements that exist
Speaker 1: all around the Mediterranean. You're gonna put these bad guys
Speaker 1: in the location that is both accessible and not just
Speaker 1: beyond where ships sail, just beyond the bit that's impassable
Speaker 1: for its rough waters. If you put it there, it's
Speaker 1: closed without being too close. It's at the edge of
Speaker 1: your known world. And tossing a reason for why the
Speaker 1: waters are impassable, it's because of what's about to happen
Speaker 1: to your island. You're gonna want to make the story
Speaker 1: itself appealing and lay down the groundwork for what will
Speaker 1: be your island's downfall. So you're gonna want to make
Speaker 1: them very, very rich. They're gonna have loads of metals
Speaker 1: that grease doesn't have. They're gonna put it everywhere as
Speaker 1: though they're swimming in it, but still there humble, that's
Speaker 1: right there, rich is anything, but they're so humble because
Speaker 1: at the beginning they're godly and they're good. They're a
Speaker 1: virtuous people. Those islanders. Now you want to transition to
Speaker 1: your philosophical point. The more power the kings have, the
Speaker 1: less honorable they are, the more tyrannical they become. Their
Speaker 1: extreme wealth is going to become an issue. Who saw
Speaker 1: that coming, Not the Atlanteans, but definitely your audience. They're
Speaker 1: going to become too proud, too tainted by hubrists and mortality.
Speaker 1: As your audience very very well knows. With that much
Speaker 1: power comes tyranny. Kings become tyrannical, like I just did.
Speaker 1: Plato had a lot of fun writing this dialogue. He
Speaker 1: got to use his imagination just enough to invent this
Speaker 1: world to serve his point, while still grounding it very
Speaker 1: much in the world that he and his audience understood,
Speaker 1: that of classical Athens. Honestly, everything about Atlantis sounds like
Speaker 1: it was invented in classical Athens, even if you ignore
Speaker 1: it being by Plato. At least the Iliot and the
Speaker 1: Odyssey feel as though they're much old there, even if
Speaker 1: they were only written down in the archaic period. But Atlantis, no,
Speaker 1: it sounds like an imaginative and often tongue in cheek
Speaker 1: interpretation that's grounded in the reality of Plato's world. To
Speaker 1: cap it all off, at the very beginning of the
Speaker 1: critious before the story is being told, Plato basically pats
Speaker 1: himself on the back by having critious talk about how
Speaker 1: it's easy to tell stories of the gods, but much
Speaker 1: more difficult to speak to stories of mere humans, which
Speaker 1: of course is what he's about to do. Still, even
Speaker 1: with all these details, you don't have to take my
Speaker 1: word for it that Plato clearly invented the idea of Atlantis.
Speaker 1: You might still be thinking Plato could still be making
Speaker 1: the same point and even still be tongue in cheek
Speaker 1: in his use of the story while referring to a
Speaker 1: real historical story of Atlantis, couldn't he We'll dive into
Speaker 1: the historical evidence or lack thereof next week, including the
Speaker 1: time there was an incredibly destructive natural disaster that absolutely
Speaker 1: changed the face of the Mediterranean, long long before Plato's time,
Speaker 1: and why that still wasn't Atlantis. Nerds, Nerds, nerds, I'm
Speaker 1: having a lot of fun with this. Kind of feels
Speaker 1: like I'm attacking everyone, but I feel like all of
Speaker 1: you are on my side anyway. I still think it's
Speaker 1: so fascinating. Thank you so much for listening. I know
Speaker 1: it's a lot just hearing in detail how something you
Speaker 1: probably thought you knew is actually something else entirely. It's
Speaker 1: it's a lot of just me debunking, for lack of
Speaker 1: a better word, But I personally find that part of it,
Speaker 1: how obvious it all is once you realize to be
Speaker 1: the most interesting we've all been so taken over by
Speaker 1: notions about Atlantis that were invented only in the last
Speaker 1: few hundred years that we have no idea what the
Speaker 1: truth of the story is, what actually existed in the
Speaker 1: ancient world. It's wild. On Friday, I speak with an
Speaker 1: archaeologist who looks at pseudo archaeology. It's an utterly fascinating
Speaker 1: conversation and dives deeper into the dangers of pseudo archaeology
Speaker 1: and how Atlantis got to be the way that it is.
Speaker 1: It is quite the story, honestly. Now, you might notice
Speaker 1: there aren't a ton of sources listed in the episodes description.
Speaker 1: Normally I wouldn't feel the need to address this, but
Speaker 1: I know I'm going to get a lot of eager
Speaker 1: Atlantis hunters and deep believers who, if they made it
Speaker 1: this far they probably didn't, I guess, are going to
Speaker 1: maybe want to hear. I don't know if anyone's immediately
Speaker 1: annoyed at me for coming at the story in this way,
Speaker 1: for not entertaining any notion of it being anything other
Speaker 1: than an allegorical story invented by Plato. But I know
Speaker 1: it's the right way to do it. But I want
Speaker 1: to clarify. I'm here to tell you the ancient source
Speaker 1: for Atlantis, to tell you about where the idea came
Speaker 1: from and why, and to examine what it means and
Speaker 1: what it does and does not mean for the wider
Speaker 1: ancient Mediterranean world. And there's only so much I can
Speaker 1: do in a podcast, so I would also encourage you
Speaker 1: to read up on the good, real historical sources that
Speaker 1: talk about this. Basically, for the most part, I'm staying
Speaker 1: in the ancient world when talking about the story of Atlantis.
Speaker 1: That's why I referred to the primary source, Plato's Timius
Speaker 1: and Critius, as well as a book I found very
Speaker 1: helpful and would recommend if you want to learn more
Speaker 1: a Brief History of Atlantis, Plato's Ideal State by Stephen P.
Speaker 1: Kershaw from what I found in my research. It comes
Speaker 1: at Atlantis from a historical and archaeological perspective and provides
Speaker 1: loads of helpful history and context. Highly recommend. There's so
Speaker 1: much in there. I've just scratched the surface, just a
Speaker 1: taste of what Atlantis is and is not. I don't
Speaker 1: want to talk about the modern searches or theories for
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons. The simplest is that all of
Speaker 1: them are based in the idea that Plato is speaking truth.
Speaker 1: But when I read it, and when I read commentary
Speaker 1: on it, it's so incredibly obvious to me that he
Speaker 1: was not even purporting to be telling a real story.
Speaker 1: It feels disingenuous to even entertain the idea that he was.
Speaker 1: The most obvious reason I don't want to entertain those
Speaker 1: theories is that every bit of real archaeology we have,
Speaker 1: and every bit of textual evidence from the ancient world,
Speaker 1: and every rational interpretation of the facts makes clear that
Speaker 1: Plato invented the story, and thus there is no rational
Speaker 1: basis for looking at anything. Ever. But the most important
Speaker 1: reason I don't want to talk about those modern theories
Speaker 1: is that while some of the old theories from the
Speaker 1: nineteenth and even the twentieth century might seem fun and
Speaker 1: quirky Disney's Atlantis style, the concept itself has become problematic
Speaker 1: as hell. I've spoken of that, and I will in
Speaker 1: more detail next week. We're not going to cover the theories.
Speaker 1: They don't matter, but we will talk about why the
Speaker 1: search for Atlantis is problematic, why pseudo archaeology is dangerous,
Speaker 1: and how it all comes down to some really dark
Speaker 1: and awful racism. It's all very interesting and mysterious. But
Speaker 1: if we entertain the conspiracy theories, we detract from real
Speaker 1: and important historical and archaeological study. We detract from the
Speaker 1: ancient civilizations that actually existed in the Mediterranean and all
Speaker 1: that they did. We give voice to a theory that
Speaker 1: is often used by racist conspiracists to promote white supremacy.
Speaker 1: Something again I will be talking about more. For all
Speaker 1: these reasons, I'm coming at the story from the ancient
Speaker 1: truth of it. Plato was a philosopher who used fiction
Speaker 1: to philosophize. It's really interesting and cool to think about,
Speaker 1: but it's not real. Thank you all for listening. You
Speaker 1: are all the best. I'm live and I love myths,
Speaker 1: the ones that interact with one another, that spanned centuries
Speaker 1: of oral storytelling, the real ones. Many great and wonderful
Speaker 1: deeds are recorded of your state in our histories, but
Speaker 1: one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valor.
Speaker 1: For these histories tell of a mighty power, which unprovoked,
Speaker 1: made of a mighty power, which unprovoked, made an expedition
Speaker 1: against the whole of Europe, and Asia, into which your
Speaker 1: city put an end. This power came forth out of
Speaker 1: the Atlantic Ocean. For in those days the Atlantic was navigable,
Speaker 1: and there was an island situated in front of the straits,
Speaker 1: which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles. The
Speaker 1: island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and
Speaker 1: was the way to other islands. From these you might
Speaker 1: pass to the whole of the opposite continent, which surrounded
Speaker 1: the true Ocean. For this sea, which is within the
Speaker 1: Straits of Heracles, is only a harbor having a narrow entrance,
Speaker 1: but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding
Speaker 1: land may be most truly called a boundless continent. M
Speaker 1: oh Hi, Hello, Welcome, This is Let's talk about Myths Baby,
Speaker 1: and I am your host, live once more, here to
Speaker 1: remind you that, at least for this series of episodes,
Speaker 1: the show is much better called Let's talk about allegory, Baby,
Speaker 1: not a good song. Plato, Plato, Plato, what have you done.
Speaker 1: I'll never get over the fact that all of the
Speaker 1: invented fantastical nonsense we know, but Atlantis ultimately comes from
Speaker 1: this odd little pair of dialogues by Plato. Have you
Speaker 1: noticed yet how minimally advanced. They are technologically are no
Speaker 1: more advanced than the classical world of Plato. They've got
Speaker 1: nothing to suggest they were in any way, say the
Speaker 1: way they're depicted in the Disney movie, which yes, is
Speaker 1: basically my only pop culture reference for Atlantis other than
Speaker 1: Assassin's Creed Odyssey, which I mean there's too much Assassin's
Speaker 1: Creed issue stuff going on in there for me to
Speaker 1: really try to navigate it. Except for a bonus episode
Speaker 1: on Saturday. Yes, I'm speaking with the wonderful doctor Kira
Speaker 1: Jones again all about the Atlantis DLC. You'll remember Kira
Speaker 1: from another Odyssey episode we did a while back, but
Speaker 1: today is not about a c Odyssey nor Disney. Today
Speaker 1: we're continuing on a bit from last week's episode, moving
Speaker 1: on to the history of it all before taking a
Speaker 1: left turn and examining just why some of the modern
Speaker 1: notions of Atlantis are dangerous. As I've said before, I'm
Speaker 1: not going into modern theories. I don't think they deserve
Speaker 1: air time, and they're all based in misreading Plato in
Speaker 1: one way or another. You simply can't develop a reasoned
Speaker 1: argument for Atlantis existing if you read Plato honestly, as
Speaker 1: I hope I've made pretty clear over the last few episodes.
Speaker 1: While simultaneously not being too repetitive, Have I been too repetitive?
Speaker 1: I also want to say that once more, there isn't
Speaker 1: anything wrong with being interested in Atlantis. I just want
Speaker 1: you all to know the background, the ancient sources as
Speaker 1: they exist, and I want you to understand the ways
Speaker 1: in which an interest in Atlantis can end up transformed
Speaker 1: into a dark and dangerous conspiracy that typically has roots
Speaker 1: in even darker and more dangerous racism. That is today's episode,
Speaker 1: and on Friday, I'll be speaking with Steph Holmhoffer, and
Speaker 1: archaeologist who studies the conspiracy of it all and the conspirituality, Yes, conspirituality.
Speaker 1: More on that later. Still looking for Atlantis is another
Speaker 1: thing entirely. Last week we talked about Atlantis through the
Speaker 1: mouth of Plato, what he was trying to do and
Speaker 1: how he went about accomplishing it. We talked about allegory
Speaker 1: and how Plato uses allegory to make his points, how
Speaker 1: he intentionally made Atlantis unbelievable so that his audience might
Speaker 1: suspend their disbelief, be able to separate themselves from the
Speaker 1: modern applications of Plato's theory and think of it as
Speaker 1: though it was taking place in another world. We talked
Speaker 1: about why exactly Atlantis is not a myth, why and
Speaker 1: how it doesn't fit the definition not nor the general
Speaker 1: understanding of the word, why it's very different from a
Speaker 1: place like Troy. By now you might be wondering where
Speaker 1: the rest of our notions of Atlantis really come from
Speaker 1: if they don't come from Plato or Greek mythology. We
Speaker 1: often think of Atlantis as being highly technologically advanced people,
Speaker 1: or being wise and spiritual. You might even have an
Speaker 1: idea that the reason they were punished by the gods
Speaker 1: was actually because of these things, because they flew too
Speaker 1: close to the sun. To use a very apt mythologic
Speaker 1: phrase borrowed from our friend Nicorus, there are so many
Speaker 1: common and accepted notions of Atlantis that I haven't mentioned
Speaker 1: in this series that weren't included when I broke down
Speaker 1: Plato's story because they're not in plato story. So where
Speaker 1: did they come from? We'll get there, But first how
Speaker 1: and why we know that. As much as it would
Speaker 1: be fascinating and very very cool if there were indeed
Speaker 1: a lost city, of Atlantis just waiting to be found.
Speaker 1: Every bit of physical, historical, and archaeological evidence we have
Speaker 1: tells us differently what those things can tell us about
Speaker 1: the ancient Mediterranean and Plato's Atlantis. This is episode one
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty two Deconstructing Atlantis, Platonic allegory meets Bronze
Speaker 1: Age reality meets dangerous conspiracy. At the very end of
Speaker 1: last week's episode, I offered an idea of what many
Speaker 1: of you might be thinking. That surely allegory and non
Speaker 1: myth status aside, it isn't impossible that Plato was talking
Speaker 1: about a real place. Surely it could be just one
Speaker 1: big coincidence that he is the only source to mention
Speaker 1: it independently, that no one before him had any notion
Speaker 1: of the lost island, and that every mentioned after him
Speaker 1: was in relation to his own invention. That surely it's
Speaker 1: not impossible even based on that evidence. Honestly, it might
Speaker 1: also be that this hasn't crossed any of your minds.
Speaker 1: I don't have a good grasp on how regular old humans,
Speaker 1: non conspiracy theorists I mean imagine Atlantis myth fiction. I
Speaker 1: used to always just assume it was myth I don't
Speaker 1: know if I ever thought it was history. I think
Speaker 1: we all understand it incorrectly, but just how incorrectly is
Speaker 1: another question. Still, we're going to visit this idea because
Speaker 1: it's interesting and it gives me a reason to talk
Speaker 1: about the ancient Mediterranean region and the archaeological and historical
Speaker 1: evidence that we do have. I've already mentioned one of
Speaker 1: the pieces of evidence, or i suppose lack thereof, that
Speaker 1: I consider to be one of the most convincing. But
Speaker 1: let's dive into what it actually means that Plato in
Speaker 1: the fourth century BC is the one and only source
Speaker 1: to mention really mentioned Atlantis. But first, every time I
Speaker 1: say something like this, I can hear the believers screaming
Speaker 1: a few names at me, And frankly, I thought I'd
Speaker 1: explain this in last week's episode, but my scripts of
Speaker 1: for these have become so unwieldy that it got moved
Speaker 1: to today's Plato is absolutely the first reference to Atlantis,
Speaker 1: but there are a handful of others that come after him.
Speaker 1: Plutarch is one, and a couple of other philosophers. Still,
Speaker 1: all of these references to Atlantis are explicitly connected with
Speaker 1: Plato's story Plutarch entertains the idea in his Life of Solon,
Speaker 1: but he's writing many more hundreds of years after Plato,
Speaker 1: who was a couple hundred years after Solon. So Plutarch
Speaker 1: is simply picking up on Plato's usage of him as
Speaker 1: a character, similar with those philosophers who mention it, though
Speaker 1: they are either students of Plato, admires of his work,
Speaker 1: or people disputing him. In all cases, references to Atlantis
Speaker 1: are just speaking of Plato's story. Aristotle himself was a
Speaker 1: student of Plato, and he seems not to have believed
Speaker 1: the story of Atlantis, or to have known it was
Speaker 1: obviously meant to be false, as he had many chances
Speaker 1: to speak of it as anything other than a thought experiment,
Speaker 1: and he did not. But to put it simply, there
Speaker 1: are no other independent sources for Atlantis, that is, no
Speaker 1: other sources that aren't building off of Plato's pre existing invention.
Speaker 1: To put it simply, if I were to write that
Speaker 1: the sky is green, and many hundreds of years down
Speaker 1: the line, someone writes that live wrote that the sky
Speaker 1: was green, and she was a smart lady. So who
Speaker 1: knows that does not mean the sky was ever green?
Speaker 1: When it comes to the archaeological evidence against Atlantis. Let's
Speaker 1: get the most obvious out of the way. As I've
Speaker 1: already mentioned, the date of nine thousand years before Plato
Speaker 1: or Solon doesn't even matter either way. That date is
Speaker 1: easily disprovable because, well, if we wanted to disprove Atlantis,
Speaker 1: we simply have to look to Athens, where there was
Speaker 1: nothing remotely resembling a city capable of waging war and
Speaker 1: winning against an island like Atlantis. Anyone who's trying to
Speaker 1: find Atlantis or convinced others that it might have been
Speaker 1: historical when it comes to Plato's Timays and Critius, but
Speaker 1: that ignores the lack of city of in Athens from
Speaker 1: that time period is immediately unreliable. They're doing exactly the
Speaker 1: definition of studio archaeology. They're ignoring the methodology the existing
Speaker 1: facts in order to prove their pre existing idea. Still,
Speaker 1: let's dive deeper. Let's say we want to believe that
Speaker 1: Plato based his story in history but invented this contemporary
Speaker 1: ancient Athens. It's a stretch, sure, but all of this
Speaker 1: is a stretch, so we're playing with it. Atlantis were
Speaker 1: told was an island bigger than Asia and Libya, that
Speaker 1: is northern Africa put together. But it sank into the Atlantic,
Speaker 1: just beyond the pillars of Heracles. It seems easy to
Speaker 1: be like, hey, we know what's at the bottom of
Speaker 1: the Atlantic, just beyond the pillars of Heracles, the Strait
Speaker 1: of Gibraltar, and there's nothing. So dust your hands in
Speaker 1: that satisfying kind of way and head home. But no,
Speaker 1: despite the fact it's very clear where Atlantis was meant
Speaker 1: to be, the search for it has gone far, far
Speaker 1: beyond Plato and into an entirely invented realm where people
Speaker 1: suggest it's all over the damn place. It's up north
Speaker 1: with the Scandinavians, it's off in the Indian Ocean, it's
Speaker 1: somewhere on the Pacific, it's the whole of the America's.
Speaker 1: All of that is straight up ignoring the singular classical
Speaker 1: source whose story had a really simple grasp on the
Speaker 1: Mediterranean geography and absolutely intended the island to be just
Speaker 1: on the other side of that straight close enough that
Speaker 1: it could rule over Europe and Africa. That's part of
Speaker 1: the story too. Frankly, I'll never fathom how anyone who
Speaker 1: considers themselves, an archaeologist gets convinced. But hey, it's happened,
Speaker 1: And well, that's about as far as I'm willing to
Speaker 1: entertain the idea of Atlantis being somewhere beyond the clear
Speaker 1: facts shared by Plato, because those theories are all disingenuous nonsense.
Speaker 1: They've got their roots in the Atlantis of a much
Speaker 1: much later time, a much more dangerous notion of Atlantis,
Speaker 1: which we'll get to. But there's one theory of Atlantis
Speaker 1: that has a lot more merit and has gained a
Speaker 1: lot of cultural importance in Greece itself. It stands on
Speaker 1: its own as a theory beyond these nonsensical ideas of
Speaker 1: where Atlantis could be or the idea that Plato was
Speaker 1: suddenly a historian. That is the only theory I'm interested
Speaker 1: in talking about, because it is in itself a fascinating
Speaker 1: piece of history. This theory of Atlantis isn't necessarily that
Speaker 1: the island in question was Atlantis. It doesn't visibly resemble
Speaker 1: Plato's description, It is very very small comparatively, and well,
Speaker 1: Plato's allegory was explicitly fictional. Still, that doesn't mean he
Speaker 1: didn't have some inspiration that there wasn't a real event
Speaker 1: that gave him an idea for his then fictional philosophical world.
Speaker 1: Of course, that island is now what we call Santorini,
Speaker 1: but it used to be a very very different place. Now,
Speaker 1: Like I said, the Greek people, and particularly modern Santorini,
Speaker 1: have developed their own story of Atlantis that include Santorini.
Speaker 1: Modern Greece has taken hold of that idea, and I
Speaker 1: am not here to tell the Greek people how to
Speaker 1: use their own history, their own cultural stories, be they
Speaker 1: philosophical allegories or otherwise. So first and foremost zero judgment
Speaker 1: to the Greek people or the island of Santorini for
Speaker 1: using the story in Atlantis in whatever way that they
Speaker 1: want to. You do you, thanks for all that you do.
Speaker 1: Just be in Greek. Now time to talk about why
Speaker 1: Santorini still isn't anything that can be reasonably called Atlantis.
Speaker 1: But oh, is it something else entirely? The ancient island
Speaker 1: of Theorra, now what we call Santorini, was a volcanic
Speaker 1: island north of Crete in the middle of the Mediterranean.
Speaker 1: It was an island that was a mountain in which
Speaker 1: was hidden a volcano there in the Bronze Age was
Speaker 1: a city that was connected with the Minoan people of Crete.
Speaker 1: We call it Acritiri, and Acritiri was incredible. They had stunning,
Speaker 1: colorful and detailed wall paintings of flower, of people, boxing,
Speaker 1: of women gathering saffron flowers. The paintings very much resemble
Speaker 1: those on the island of Crete, hence the connection between
Speaker 1: the two islands. Now, remember this was the Bronze Age.
Speaker 1: The city was occupied earlier than the seventeenth or sixteenth
Speaker 1: centuries b c. E. Now, of course, that isn't remotely
Speaker 1: near the realm of Atlantis at the tenth or eleventh
Speaker 1: millennia b C. But it is well over a thousand
Speaker 1: years older than Plato. So what happened in the sixteenth
Speaker 1: or seventeen centuries BC? Why is it possibly the inspiration
Speaker 1: for the fictional island of Atlantis? And for that matter,
Speaker 1: why was this ancient island of theorist so very different
Speaker 1: from the modern island of SANTAINI Well, Sarah was a volcano,
Speaker 1: and volcanoes erupt, and Farrah's was a really, really, really
Speaker 1: strong eruption. I wish I knew more about volcanoes so
Speaker 1: that I could properly explain to you how big it was,
Speaker 1: but I'll try. The volcanic eruption of Theory was one
Speaker 1: of the biggest volcanic eruptions we have records for. It
Speaker 1: was a six or a seven in the order of
Speaker 1: magnitude that they used to track eruptions. Almost all of
Speaker 1: the volcanoes that hit an eight happened before humanity even existed.
Speaker 1: That's how big an eight is, so you can get
Speaker 1: an idea of what a seven might look like. The
Speaker 1: eruption of Theory changed the face of the Mediterranean during
Speaker 1: the Bronze Age. It brought about a volcanic winter, it
Speaker 1: sent tsunami's, It tore through the Mediterranean and disrupted the
Speaker 1: people's living there to such a degree that it is
Speaker 1: often credited for what is termed the Bronze Age collapse.
Speaker 1: That in itself is a problematic term, as there wasn't
Speaker 1: any kind of like official or true collapse, but a
Speaker 1: slow erosion and breakdown of Bronze Age societies that was
Speaker 1: in large part affected by this volcano. Imagine you're a
Speaker 1: person living in the six You're pretty reliant on agriculture
Speaker 1: and trade. So when a volcanic eruption happens so close
Speaker 1: and is so big that it basically ruins an entire
Speaker 1: year of your lives. It caused a refugee crisis, It
Speaker 1: just did so many things, an enormous amount of damage,
Speaker 1: the effects of which would have been felt for centuries.
Speaker 1: The eruption of Thera was so big that the majority
Speaker 1: of the island, which was itself the volcano, sunk into
Speaker 1: the sea. It left a called Era, which is today
Speaker 1: still beneath the sea in Santorini, an island that is
Speaker 1: now a circular shape because the whole center of it
Speaker 1: sunk into the sea. But how do we know about Acritri,
Speaker 1: the city on Therara where the stunning wall paintings were.
Speaker 1: It was preserved by the volcanic ash and whatever else.
Speaker 1: I'm not a volcanologist, just like POMPEII, only older, so
Speaker 1: much older, like over sixteen hundred years older than POMPEII.
Speaker 1: If you take one thing from this episode, other than
Speaker 1: the fact that Atlantis wasn't a myth a reality, take
Speaker 1: with you the knowledge that there exists a preserved ancient
Speaker 1: city that is over sixteen hundred years older than POMPEII,
Speaker 1: that it's wall paintings were preserved and can still be
Speaker 1: seen on both Santorini and in Athens. Google Acritari, you'll
Speaker 1: thank me. It's absolutely the best thing I learned in university.
Speaker 1: So what better inspiration for Plato's fictional city of Atlantis
Speaker 1: than this volcanic eruption over a thousand years before his time,
Speaker 1: the remains of which he could see with his own eyes.
Speaker 1: It's pretty easy to believe the argument that the island
Speaker 1: of Theori Santorini, while not Atlantis, could have been the
Speaker 1: inspiration for Atlantis. But it was and is so much
Speaker 1: better than Atlantis. The example of Theory Santorini and why
Speaker 1: it might be a beautiful story of Plato's inspiration but
Speaker 1: certainly can't be reasonably called Atlantis from the story itself
Speaker 1: at least connects very nicely to the why of it all?
Speaker 1: Why have I made this series of episodes all about
Speaker 1: disproving Atlantis, blowing up your childhood dreams, talking about how
Speaker 1: it's simply isn't a thing, be that thing, myth or
Speaker 1: history or anything else. Because, like you've likely heard in
Speaker 1: my conversation episodes, by now, when we attribute something to Atlantis,
Speaker 1: at least the Atlantis has become. Instead of attributing it
Speaker 1: to the ancient people who actually did exist and did
Speaker 1: do some pretty incredible things, we take the credit away
Speaker 1: from those actual ancient people. Thearra Santorini wasn't Atlantis, because
Speaker 1: that suggests that they were this godly people, separate from
Speaker 1: the Minoan Greeks who actually lived on Fara and built
Speaker 1: Acriti and painted those incredible wall paintings and did everything
Speaker 1: else wonderful that they did in a historical reality. Now, obviously,
Speaker 1: Santorini is one of the least problematic, least dangerous examples,
Speaker 1: namely because modern Greece uses Atlantis as a way to
Speaker 1: bring people to Santorini to teach them about Acriti, which
Speaker 1: is great, but it is a good example as a
Speaker 1: starting point. First, though, let's look at what Atlantis has become,
Speaker 1: because that is a vital piece of this. Now, some
Speaker 1: of what you're here will sound familiar from my conversation
Speaker 1: with David s Anderson, but I've expanded on it here.
Speaker 1: This new version of Atlantis began to develop, at least
Speaker 1: in any kind of mainstream way, in the sixteenth century,
Speaker 1: that is, the sixteenth century CE. You know, only about
Speaker 1: two thousand years after Plato lived. This is when Atlantis
Speaker 1: started being seen as a utopia. Now, as I've said,
Speaker 1: these episodes aren't about this new version of Atlantis because
Speaker 1: it's so far from the ancient idea and the ancient
Speaker 1: sources that I find it just to be too inherently wrong.
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess these early inklings have value when
Speaker 1: you're looking at the historical time period that they developed
Speaker 1: in and the literature that they came from, things like
Speaker 1: Thomas Moore's Utopia and Francis Bacon's The New Atlantis. But
Speaker 1: this isn't a literature podcast, nor is it about this
Speaker 1: time and history, which is all the way of me
Speaker 1: saying I haven't read these sources, and I'm only giving
Speaker 1: a broad overview to get to my point. The idea
Speaker 1: of Atlantis as a utopia first appears in these works
Speaker 1: Utopia by Thomas Moore and The New Atlantis by Francis Bacon.
Speaker 1: Do I know how they got to Atlantis being a
Speaker 1: utopia or whether there was some kind of semi reasonable
Speaker 1: argument to get there, No, because it's not the point.
Speaker 1: The point is this is where it starts. Of course,
Speaker 1: as I've already said, This is not remotely what Plato intended.
Speaker 1: The Atlantis of Plato is very much not a utopia,
Speaker 1: and in act intentionally serves as the example of the
Speaker 1: opposite of the more utopian Athens. And yet suddenly, here
Speaker 1: in the sixteenth century ce Atlantis becomes a utopia and
Speaker 1: the idea catches on. It's baffling. Plato makes it very
Speaker 1: clear Atlantis are the bad guys. Sure they begin virtuous,
Speaker 1: but even when they're being virtuous, we hear that they
Speaker 1: can punish and kill whoever they want for whatever reason
Speaker 1: they deem fit. Beyond that, they're the ones who descend
Speaker 1: into tyranny. They're the ones who lose the war with Athens.
Speaker 1: They're the ones who are punished by the gods. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Athens sounds quite nice if you ignore Plato's interest in eugenics,
Speaker 1: whatever the reason and whether it makes sense or not.
Speaker 1: This is when Atlantis begins to be seen as a utopia,
Speaker 1: oh and doesn't go downhill from there. Then you shift
Speaker 1: to the people who are in the midst of violently
Speaker 1: colonizing the Americas, who start thinking that it's simply impossible
Speaker 1: for these jenous people is to have created such incredible
Speaker 1: architectural works, pyramids and temples, and all the amazing things
Speaker 1: the colonizers found in the Americas. So those colonizers think, hey,
Speaker 1: you know what, in fact, all of these incredible feats
Speaker 1: we've found in the Americas are just proof of Atlantis.
Speaker 1: Because no, no, these non white indigenous peopils couldn't be
Speaker 1: capable of such ingenuity. It must mean that the Atlanteans
Speaker 1: did it. Yeah, they must have escaped the island before
Speaker 1: it sunk into the sea, made their way to the
Speaker 1: America's and built all this amazing stuff. Yep, that must
Speaker 1: be it. And so as you can see, this is
Speaker 1: where the racism starts and it doesn't stop. Now, all
Speaker 1: of this next bit will be super simplified because I'm
Speaker 1: not diving too deep into this. I don't want to
Speaker 1: read any of these next people's works or learn their
Speaker 1: racist shit. I'm going off of Wikipedia, which I would
Speaker 1: otherwise never do. But these are racist ideologies. So I'm
Speaker 1: not going any deeper than our good friend Wikipedia. Because
Speaker 1: we next have ignacious Donnelle, the American congressman who developed
Speaker 1: an extensive and beyond absurd book of Atlantis theorizing it
Speaker 1: does a lot of things to the story of Atlantis.
Speaker 1: But the important bit is that it introduces this bit
Speaker 1: of spiritualism to the story. Needless to say, an American
Speaker 1: congressman of the nineteenth century contributed a bunch of Christian
Speaker 1: ideals to the story. He wrote about Atlantis being the
Speaker 1: common history between the Americas and Africa. He connects the
Speaker 1: flood of Atlantis to the biblical flood, and he says
Speaker 1: that Atlantis was the origin of the Aryan race. M hmm, yep,
Speaker 1: you can see where we're going here from there, Helena Blavatsky.
Speaker 1: We'll talk more about Helena Blavatsky and my upcoming conversation
Speaker 1: episode with Steph Holmhoffer. But the cliffs notes is that
Speaker 1: she introduced a whole other level of invented spiritualism to
Speaker 1: Atlantis and a whole lot more race stuff that gods
Speaker 1: I will not try to understand. But you know, it
Speaker 1: was the nineteenth century and she was white, so it's
Speaker 1: not good. Obviously, all of this is so not good
Speaker 1: that you know, who else looked for Atlantis with real
Speaker 1: seriousness and a really racist theory, The fucking Nazis. In Germany.
Speaker 1: Around the same time, there develops a theory that the
Speaker 1: Atlanteans are in fact Hyperboreans. Now, Hyperborea is originally from
Speaker 1: Greek myth, if not many myths, and is basically how
Speaker 1: they understood northern Europe. There's very little maybe I'll cover
Speaker 1: it one day Myth's decide. The idea, along with Atlantis,
Speaker 1: was picked up by Blobotsky. The key only is that
Speaker 1: this theory later allows the Nazis to believe that the
Speaker 1: Atlanteans were white like blonde haired, blue eyed white. You
Speaker 1: can imagine. Donnelly's theory of the origin of the Arian
Speaker 1: race didn't help, and so off the Nazis go, trying
Speaker 1: to find Atlantis to find their so called proof of
Speaker 1: an ancient white race, an ancient Arian race from which
Speaker 1: they can say they are descended and thus justify all
Speaker 1: of the horror they're about to commit. It's bad. I'm obviously, truly,
Speaker 1: really not here to talk about the Nazis, thank the Gods,
Speaker 1: but it's important to lay out the ways in which
Speaker 1: Atlantis has been used for horrific racist propaganda. It doesn't
Speaker 1: need to be said, but all of this is complete
Speaker 1: and utter bullshit for a whole host of obvious reasons,
Speaker 1: but the main one being if Atlantis were where Plato
Speaker 1: said it was, beyond the Strait of Gibraltar, they wouldn't
Speaker 1: have been particularly light skinned, let alone how we understand
Speaker 1: white as the Nazis and other racists want to think.
Speaker 1: But this is how Atlantis came to be such a
Speaker 1: dangerous topic. It's why I'm coming at it like I am.
Speaker 1: It's why I've had these incredible archaeologists who want to
Speaker 1: talk to me about it. It's why it's a big
Speaker 1: deal that we don't give any credence or viewership to
Speaker 1: these nonsense so called documentaries that go searching for Atlantis
Speaker 1: because it's good for ratings, ignoring the fact that it
Speaker 1: is inherently not a place, not a history, not a myth,
Speaker 1: and that it actually has a whole slew of racist
Speaker 1: undertones that aren't Plato's fault, but they exist all the same.
Speaker 1: Atlantis has been used as a way to get around
Speaker 1: the out of Africa theory that if the whitest of
Speaker 1: the white people actually came from this idea of a
Speaker 1: white Atlantis, then these racist ships don't have to believe
Speaker 1: that they, along with all the rest of us, are
Speaker 1: descended from people who originally came from Africa. It's dark,
Speaker 1: is all fuck. Obviously, you know, I actually avoided swearing
Speaker 1: on the other two Atlantis episodes so I didn't have
Speaker 1: to make them explicit and the make them more able
Speaker 1: to be shared. But man, when you get into this
Speaker 1: racist stuff, I just can't help myself. It's super fucking dark,
Speaker 1: you guys, like, holy shit, it's dark. Now. Obviously, all
Speaker 1: of this is based in these modern ideas of so
Speaker 1: so many things, whiteness being key. Plato had no concept
Speaker 1: of whiteness as we know it now. He was thinking
Speaker 1: of Atlantis as simply a culture of barbarians because they
Speaker 1: weren't Greek. And remember, if you weren't Greek, you're a barbarian.
Speaker 1: That's just the way it is. That's why they're the
Speaker 1: bad guys. So who knows what Plato's fictional Atlantis imagined
Speaker 1: the people to look like, if he did at all,
Speaker 1: at least when it comes to race. But for all
Speaker 1: his eugenic ship, his intention was still not to create
Speaker 1: this utopian society of light skinned people, because again, there
Speaker 1: was no concept of this. They were barbarians, and the
Speaker 1: most importantly then, the thing I will never get over,
Speaker 1: they were the bad guys like these racist people taking
Speaker 1: it on, They're just giving themselves away it. Lantis was
Speaker 1: explicitly an example of what is not a utopia, what
Speaker 1: is deserving of punishment from the gods. There are so
Speaker 1: many fascinating places from the world of Greek myth. The
Speaker 1: emphasis placed on Atlantis in pop culture and beyond it's
Speaker 1: just so unnecessary. I hope all of this inspires you
Speaker 1: listeners to take up passions with places and people that
Speaker 1: are actually from Greek myth or history. Come up with
Speaker 1: a mystical world based on locations from Homer's Odyssey, or
Speaker 1: the ancient Ethiopia of myth, the historical city of Carthage,
Speaker 1: places from the Greek mainland or Greek islands, or Hell,
Speaker 1: lots of mythology beyond the Greeks. I just really only
Speaker 1: know the Greeks. Well, we should raise up the story
Speaker 1: of a criteria, a very real ancient city you can
Speaker 1: visit that gives some of the best examples of life
Speaker 1: in the Bronze Age Mediterranean and all that it had
Speaker 1: to offer, the kind of art and architecture that existed
Speaker 1: daily life in the world of almost four thousand years
Speaker 1: in the past. Spread the word about Atlantis to one
Speaker 1: of my favorite things now is to share the true
Speaker 1: nature of it when it comes up, not only that
Speaker 1: it was simply a thought experiment by a Greek philosopher,
Speaker 1: but that so much of what we do imagine to
Speaker 1: be the mythological Atlantis is in fact only from the
Speaker 1: past few hundred years, and often comes with racial undertones
Speaker 1: that most of us have no idea about. We like
Speaker 1: the idea of Atlantis because it really is fascinating to
Speaker 1: think about, like a lost city that could be found,
Speaker 1: a people shrouded in mystery. But those same things can
Speaker 1: actually be real too. There are most certainly ease from
Speaker 1: the ancient world that have been lost to the sea.
Speaker 1: There are mysterious people that we don't know enough about.
Speaker 1: There is an equally fascinating world of technologically advanced ancient people.
Speaker 1: They're just people like the ancient Egyptians, the Mayans, the Aztecs,
Speaker 1: people that did things that we can only imagine, and
Speaker 1: did them so many thousands of years ago. They're just
Speaker 1: as interesting as Atlantis. But because whiteness has been ascribed
Speaker 1: to Atlantis very recently in the grand scheme of human existence,
Speaker 1: because of that, it's given more power and importance than
Speaker 1: these very real ancient people, and that is just it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: Even very recently, there are so called documentaries about finding
Speaker 1: evidence of Atlantis real archaeology that gets misinterpreted in the
Speaker 1: name of ratings, when there could be documentaries about very
Speaker 1: real ancient people and the archaeologist studying them. Not to
Speaker 1: say there aren't, but they are not produced in the
Speaker 1: same way, and it's obvious and they could be produced
Speaker 1: in the same way if the people in charge just
Speaker 1: made a real effort to make actual, truthful history and
Speaker 1: archaeology seem just as exciting as Atlantis pseudo archaeology, which
Speaker 1: it is. It's just about how you market it. It's
Speaker 1: it's possible. It just takes people with the loudest voices
Speaker 1: in the room actually growing a conscience and realizing the
Speaker 1: harm and advancing a historical theories, let alone a historical
Speaker 1: theories with ties to extreme racism. It sounds super cheesy,
Speaker 1: but honestly, if you take anything away from this series
Speaker 1: of episodes other than acritary, I hope it's the understanding
Speaker 1: of why aspects of the modern Atlantis story can be
Speaker 1: harmful if used in the wrong way. I hope you
Speaker 1: get how pseudo archaeology harms very real and important archaeology.
Speaker 1: How it harms our understanding of very real ancient people,
Speaker 1: typically the ones who weren't what we now see as white.
Speaker 1: How much of the understanding of Atlantis that we have
Speaker 1: today is based in deep, dark, racist colonial roots. Again,
Speaker 1: there isn't anything wrong with being interested in Atlantis, as
Speaker 1: Plato wrote about it, There isn't necessarily anything wrong with
Speaker 1: fictionalizing Atlantis, so long as you understand the implications inherent
Speaker 1: in it, and you are aware of the background and
Speaker 1: it's widespread use today for racist and generally white supremacist ideologies. Still,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, there are better things you can fictionalize.
Speaker 1: There are real ancient people who did really incredible things,
Speaker 1: certainly on par with the original Platonic story of Atlantis,
Speaker 1: because truly, there wasn't much in there, So why not
Speaker 1: invent your own world that's what you're looking for, or
Speaker 1: find real ancient people who did incredible things, who built
Speaker 1: pyramids that boggle the mind. These people were much much
Speaker 1: more exciting than anything from the nonsensical realm of Atlantis.
Speaker 1: Real history, real archaeology, real ancient peoples in their mythologies
Speaker 1: are always going to be more interesting than the fake stuff.
Speaker 1: We just have to figure out how to get that
Speaker 1: through the capitalism of it all. Of course, much of
Speaker 1: what I'm referring to now is not so subtle. Jab
Speaker 1: at a certain long running TV show that suggests ancient
Speaker 1: people couldn't do what they did, then it must be aliens,
Speaker 1: and recent documentaries that incorrectly portray real actual archaeologists as
Speaker 1: having any interest in finding Atlantis. It's all bullshit. It's
Speaker 1: dangerous lies used to make money because no one's ever
Speaker 1: tried hard enough to get the same writings and add
Speaker 1: dollars from real, actual ancient people in their worlds. If
Speaker 1: Atlantis is anything, it's a learning experience. Learn the truth,
Speaker 1: the history behind the real story, where the modern story
Speaker 1: comes from, and what implications that has, and then decide
Speaker 1: how you want to use the truth. Honestly, even just
Speaker 1: having the knowledge is a really good start. Oh Nerds,
Speaker 1: Thank you all so much for listening. This series of
Speaker 1: episodes has been so many things for me. It felt
Speaker 1: very odd to spend so much time disproving something that
Speaker 1: many of you probably don't believe in. I mean, I
Speaker 1: certain many, if not most of you, at least believed
Speaker 1: Atlantis to be a Greek myth, just like I did.
Speaker 1: But I don't know the number of people that believe
Speaker 1: it could be real. Maybe it's higher than I think.
Speaker 1: I honestly have no idea either way. I came to
Speaker 1: the series having experienced just a hint of the world
Speaker 1: of those who believe in Atlantis for real. Those who
Speaker 1: believe in it and their life seems to depend on that.
Speaker 1: The people have encountered personally are some of the worst
Speaker 1: of the Internet. Similar to the guys who want to
Speaker 1: tell me about Medusa. They just scream at you, But
Speaker 1: how wrong and ignorant you are because of all their
Speaker 1: nonsense theories about Atlantis. They have explanations for everything, but
Speaker 1: none of it actually checks out. If you just, I
Speaker 1: don't know, youse some critical thinking skills. It helps to
Speaker 1: have knowledge in the real ancient world. Anyway, those experiences
Speaker 1: and the things I've seen over the past year made
Speaker 1: me want to actually dive into this to tell you
Speaker 1: all the real Plato truth of it all and explain
Speaker 1: why the truth matters, and why the background to the
Speaker 1: modern notion of Atlantis matters even more. If you don't
Speaker 1: know the racist, white supremacist background, how can you know
Speaker 1: how to take in Atlantis content, how to understand what
Speaker 1: content is and is not straight up dangerous ideology. It's
Speaker 1: so easy to fall into a YouTube trap thinking you're
Speaker 1: getting truthful, accurate information, and suddenly you don't even realize
Speaker 1: and it's turned into deep, horrible racist propaganda. I hope
Speaker 1: I've done this series justice, and of course it's not
Speaker 1: over yet. On Friday, I have an episode with Steph Holmoffer,
Speaker 1: who tells us even more about the dark history, the
Speaker 1: people who started it, and the other things those people did.
Speaker 1: We talked archaeological conspiracies more generally in the racist ideologies
Speaker 1: behind some of them. It's totally fascinating and Steph and
Speaker 1: I really had a lot of fun chatting about this.
Speaker 1: It helps that she's also from my province, which is
Speaker 1: a rare thrill for me. So stay tuned for that.
Speaker 1: Seriously fun. Also on Saturday, I spoke with Kira Jones
Speaker 1: again all about the Atlantis of Assassin's Creta Odyssey. You
Speaker 1: all know how much I love odyssey, so that too
Speaker 1: was supremely fun. Stay tuned for it all. And now
Speaker 1: every time you hear about the modern ideas behind Atlantis,
Speaker 1: the crystal energies and the utopian societies. I hope you
Speaker 1: all imagine the illustration from my logo for this series,
Speaker 1: face palm Plato. That's certainly how Plato would look if
Speaker 1: he knew what had spawned from his random allegorical fiction
Speaker 1: used to describe actually a fairly dystopian society. He'd smack
Speaker 1: himself in the forehead and start screaming about Athens. Why
Speaker 1: would you think Atlantis was better? Were you not paying attention?
Speaker 1: He would surely yell, I told you all about how
Speaker 1: perfect Athens is. Don't you know that Athens is perfect? Plato?
Speaker 1: What a mess you've made. Thank you all so much
Speaker 1: for listening. I'm live and I love real mythology and
Speaker 1: real history that doesn't take away from the incredible skills
Speaker 1: and accomplishments of real ancient people. I love Acriterri