Speaker 1: Welcome the guys we.
Speaker 2: Find the anti slutshaming pods that I'm Christina Hutchings, I'm
Speaker 2: Current Fisher, and I'm Yea so too.
Speaker 1: With friends, we bring us to sludy, your warning and
Speaker 1: your shame. Hey you with what?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 4: Okay? Greetings fuckers. How you doing where you've been?
Speaker 3: You?
Speaker 1: Good?
Speaker 2: Drink water, stay hydrated. Welcome to another episode of Guys
Speaker 2: We Fucked. It's an anti slutching podcast. I'm Couren Fisher,
Speaker 2: I'm Christina Hudginson. Welcome to the show. If you want
Speaker 2: to send us an email, it's sorry about last night's
Speaker 2: show at gmail dot com. And this is coming out
Speaker 2: before New Year's right, Yes, yeah, okay, So New Year's Eve,
Speaker 2: come see Christina and myself and Ryan Long, Chloe Labranch,
Speaker 2: John Campinelli justin Silver at New York Comedy Club East
Speaker 2: Village location.
Speaker 4: It's a six pm show, it is.
Speaker 2: Let me tell you, I do the show pretty much
Speaker 2: every year as long as I'm in town. It's the
Speaker 2: best way to start your New Year's Eve. It's six pm.
Speaker 2: You got to get ready early anyway, because night's over
Speaker 2: at midnight. Okay, and you go, you see a comedy
Speaker 2: show which is like a staple for New Year's Eve,
Speaker 2: best night for comedy. Then you go, you drink with
Speaker 2: your friends, you watch the ball drop, and you start
Speaker 2: the year off right. So ticket link is available on
Speaker 2: the New York Comedy Club East Village website. It's also
Speaker 2: available in the link in my bio. The link tree
Speaker 2: link in my bio a philanthropy gal. So buy a
Speaker 2: ticket to that I it was. The show was so
Speaker 2: fun last year, you seriously don't want to miss it.
Speaker 2: If you want to email us again, it's sorry about
Speaker 2: last night's show at gmail dot com. Today's subject line
Speaker 2: is my partner is depressed and it's so annoying.
Speaker 4: I know we've all been there. Though I know Christina's
Speaker 4: been there.
Speaker 1: Seven years. I've been there. It sucked. Yeah have I
Speaker 1: been there?
Speaker 4: Oh no, I said, I've been there, and then I
Speaker 4: looked at you, but yes, And.
Speaker 1: The man just thought you were asking you a question.
Speaker 1: Have you been there?
Speaker 4: Or have you been the partner who was depressed and annoying?
Speaker 5: I have been the depressed annoying partner.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, who on my acts?
Speaker 2: Oh damn, yeah, hello C and Kay, I'm an og
Speaker 2: fucker and I'm proud to have been with you for
Speaker 2: the ride. I'm thirty nine and I've been with my
Speaker 2: partner for twelve years. Well that's going to get depressing anyway. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we have gone that's the problem. Yeah, you're long, You're
Speaker 2: together to the long. Yeah, it's like I'm sure it's
Speaker 2: beautiful and like your front.
Speaker 4: You know, you have a great friendship, but you gotta
Speaker 4: see you every day.
Speaker 2: We have gone through so much growth together and we
Speaker 2: have a loving and great relationship. I've never felt seen
Speaker 2: more by my partner. And we have a fantastic sex life. Wow,
Speaker 2: I hope. So when we get to enjoy it that is.
Speaker 2: I knew there mus be some qualifier because we have
Speaker 2: two little kids together. My partner and I are both
Speaker 2: self employed artists. We work from home and live in
Speaker 2: a small town because it's what we can afford. This
Speaker 2: year has been so hard on artists and many small
Speaker 2: business owners financially, and I see this weighing down my partner,
Speaker 2: who feels societal pressures on being a father to purvide
Speaker 2: for his family, along with parenting two small kids, NonStop
Speaker 2: mountains of laundry, running a small business, and trying to
Speaker 2: survive when life hurls lemons at me. I still try
Speaker 2: to see the joy and beauty in everyday life. I
Speaker 2: take care of myself well, take care of my mind
Speaker 2: and body, and make time for my own needs good.
Speaker 2: I try to encourage my partner to do the same,
Speaker 2: but it always ends in a fight. I try to
Speaker 2: explain to him what I have learned being a mother,
Speaker 2: that if you don't take care of yourself, when life
Speaker 2: throwshit at you, you can't handle it because you haven't
Speaker 2: met your needs first.
Speaker 1: Very true, Very true.
Speaker 2: He obviously won't listen and is comfortable being stressed out
Speaker 2: and depressed.
Speaker 4: I can't stand out anymore.
Speaker 2: I try to be understanding, but it's like he is
Speaker 2: walking around constantly in a dark cloud. And it's also like,
Speaker 2: you guys have a very similar lifestyle, So it's.
Speaker 4: Like, how come you can somehow handle it?
Speaker 1: Me can't.
Speaker 4: Yes, I love I love that. Yeah, and you birth
Speaker 4: the fucking kids.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And it doesn't even have to carry him Listen, he
Speaker 2: could be father of the year. The mom's still doing
Speaker 2: more work, there's pretty much no like the only time
Speaker 2: the mom's not doing more work is when she's like
Speaker 2: strung out on drugs and leaves the family entirely.
Speaker 1: You know otherwise, Bekasia, girl, you deserving.
Speaker 2: She needed to do a heroin to take a break,
Speaker 2: bringing the energy of our small home to a bad place.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you get what I'm talking about. It's just
Speaker 2: very hard to be around. I have for years been
Speaker 2: watching him take less care of himself mentally and physically,
Speaker 2: and while I try to be compassionate, I'm tired of
Speaker 2: fucking a fat fuck. Okay she didn't write that, but
Speaker 2: I fill that in for her. I'm so tired of
Speaker 2: the gloom and fucking doom. Yes, yes, yes, as people
Speaker 2: should deal so much with male comedians, we could not
Speaker 2: understand you more.
Speaker 4: Listen, I am.
Speaker 2: I get sad a lot, but I really try not
Speaker 2: to make like bring the fucking gloom and doom.
Speaker 4: It sucks.
Speaker 2: I don't want to leave him, but I need some advice.
Speaker 2: I don't want to leave him, Jesus, I hope he
Speaker 2: doesn't listen to the show. I don't want to leave him,
Speaker 2: but I need some advice. I'm sure as artists you're
Speaker 2: and from what I've heard on the podcast, you both
Speaker 2: might have some advice for me on how to handle
Speaker 2: loving a depressed person who won't help themselves with a
Speaker 2: warm heart and gratitude the listener, who obviously we're not saying.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, i know you're in it to win
Speaker 2: it and you got kids together, but I'm a big
Speaker 2: fan of an ultimatum in the circumstance if you will
Speaker 2: fucking listen. Yeah, you've tried to have the conversation and
Speaker 2: given loving advice and be patient and kind, and that's
Speaker 2: absolutely the first step.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, especially if the person has depression.
Speaker 2: You don't know, maybe you don't know the depths of
Speaker 2: their own depression, right, so you want to be gentle
Speaker 2: and loving.
Speaker 1: He's your partner. But then after a.
Speaker 2: While too, John Tall, Yeah, everybody's got their own approach.
Speaker 2: But after a while, geh, because gentle could be seen
Speaker 2: as coddling and enabling. If this shit keeps up and
Speaker 2: he's not doing anything.
Speaker 1: About it, you can't. That is such a pussy dryer.
Speaker 2: If you are mentally ill and you have struggle with
Speaker 2: depression and you are not doing anything about it, or
Speaker 2: at least taking the advice of your loving partner who's
Speaker 2: trying to help you and like help you, like here,
Speaker 2: let's sit down together and find a therapist. Or something
Speaker 2: if it had to have gotten to that point, but
Speaker 2: it's like, dude, or how about something like I don't know,
Speaker 2: feel like his parents are still alive or whatever, but
Speaker 2: like I would be like, you're gonna go to your parents'
Speaker 2: house for one month and when you come back, you're
Speaker 2: gonna have your shit fucking together or I am leaving. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think an ultimatum is the only thing to get
Speaker 2: his asking gear. Yeah, sometimes stepping away from this situation,
Speaker 2: I think is like helpful and listen, like I can't
Speaker 2: imagine like being in the same situation for twelve years,
Speaker 2: like the same people, the same house, whatever, and then
Speaker 2: like some so sometimes like stepping away, putting things into
Speaker 2: perspective and just having like, you know, the time to
Speaker 2: handle just you and like hopefully he would be able
Speaker 2: to give you the same courtesy in the future, right if.
Speaker 1: You needed that.
Speaker 4: Yes, but I think that could be helpful. There's a
Speaker 4: lot of like, you.
Speaker 2: Know, influencers online, mom influencers, dad influencers who will do
Speaker 2: things like you know, go take themselves, you know, the
Speaker 2: one parent will go to a hotel for a weekend
Speaker 2: and have this kind of like staycation thing. And I
Speaker 2: think that's so helpful. And I understand that you guys
Speaker 2: are in a different financial position. I mean, like go
Speaker 2: to Hotel six for a weekend.
Speaker 1: Yeah, then you'll appreciate your house right.
Speaker 2: And then also, I mean there's a lot of things
Speaker 2: that you listed in this article, and like, I don't
Speaker 2: you know, small town in city have different amenities. But
Speaker 2: you know, I'm a big this is something I've been
Speaker 2: doing since I was broke. So this is not some like,
Speaker 2: you know, uh, money advice. But I would really look
Speaker 2: in to see if there's a local laundromat that offers
Speaker 2: per pound laundry, because you just like mentioned piles of
Speaker 2: laundry and I can only imagine the amount of laundry
Speaker 2: if you also have small children. I think people don't
Speaker 2: realize how cheap you can get someone to do your
Speaker 2: laundry for you and how much time it will save you. Again,
Speaker 2: I once wroted an article when I was like really
Speaker 2: broken stressed out about you know, putting value on your
Speaker 2: time and that the amount of time it takes to
Speaker 2: do laundry is not literally not worth one's time. So
Speaker 2: again that comes back folded. Yeah, I would look into
Speaker 2: something like that just to ease your load a little bit,
Speaker 2: you know, and then you know, recip for support a
Speaker 2: small business in your town.
Speaker 4: Again, that's more of like a city amenity. So I
Speaker 4: don't know that it.
Speaker 2: Exists in your small town, but you could actually have
Speaker 2: like a really good price on that I'm seeing to
Speaker 2: give yourself less work. That is a fantastic idea. To
Speaker 2: have him go stay with his parents, or ghostay with
Speaker 2: a friend, or ghostay with somebody else who's not fucking me,
Speaker 2: basically where it's free that he can leave you exactly,
Speaker 2: and then he'll be in the company of a fucking friend.
Speaker 2: And a lot of times friends can help you get
Speaker 2: out of your depression by just talking about dumb shit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, you don't have to talk about the depression.
Speaker 2: But in addition to it being an absolute pussy dryer
Speaker 2: when somebody is moping around and not doing anything about it.
Speaker 2: Because it is very possible to be depressed and to
Speaker 2: be a good partner and to have depression and to
Speaker 2: be a good parent. So not only is it going
Speaker 2: to hinder like your sex life majorly, I can't imagine
Speaker 2: that it won't. Your children are picking up that their
Speaker 2: father is depressed, right and there's no way that they
Speaker 2: don't know that they don't feel that energy.
Speaker 4: From him, So that's going to fuck them up too.
Speaker 2: So if you need something to give you a sense
Speaker 2: of immediacy, I would have them in mind. I also like,
Speaker 2: men are so preoccupied with like how society sees them,
Speaker 2: and you're not being the provider. Meanwhile, they're perfectly comfortable
Speaker 2: walking around the house making themselves completely unfuckable with their actions.
Speaker 1: That's a great point.
Speaker 2: It's just like, who's the person who has to deal
Speaker 2: with you for the rest of their life. It's it's
Speaker 2: your wife or your part you know, or your partner,
Speaker 2: your female part like what the kids. Yeah, it's like, Oh,
Speaker 2: if you're so concerned with other people what other people
Speaker 2: think of you, why don't you be concerned with the
Speaker 2: fact that your behavior right now and the way that
Speaker 2: you're not taking care of yourself mentally and physically, especially
Speaker 2: when it comes to heterosexual relationships. I really don't have
Speaker 2: a lot of grace for men because of how they
Speaker 2: are so hard on us with for you know, every
Speaker 2: gotten for how we look. Can you imagine if like
Speaker 2: a woman just let herself go physically in this in
Speaker 2: this manner or it was just like in bed depressed
Speaker 2: and yeah.
Speaker 1: And we were like, oh, I can't make the kids
Speaker 1: dinner tonight.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine how quickly we would get booted, we
Speaker 2: would get replaced, we would get cheated on. Can you
Speaker 2: fucking imagine if a woman just got threw a pot
Speaker 2: belly stop shaving all of our body, no makeup, fucking greasy.
Speaker 1: Ass, fat ass whatever, like gluttonous. Oh my god, the
Speaker 1: men would run for the fucking hills.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oh jesus.
Speaker 4: It's also like you're both artists.
Speaker 2: You're both in the same in a very similar boat here,
Speaker 2: Like why is his boat sinking and yours is somehow
Speaker 2: saying a flow? Yeah, And there's so many things that
Speaker 2: he could do for his depression immediately that are free running, running, jogging, walking,
Speaker 2: if you like walks, yes, there you go, because as serprofitsky,
Speaker 2: this sad girl walks up.
Speaker 4: I think and I think it, but I at anytimes.
Speaker 1: Changed your whole mindset.
Speaker 2: Literally getting your fucking pants on and walking around the block.
Speaker 2: It makes a world of difference. Look, I don't mean
Speaker 2: to brag, but I'm a runner now. I fucking get
Speaker 2: up at seven am running a great I go running
Speaker 2: and I never thought I was like, now I'm a
Speaker 2: rollerblade girl because it's so fun and running isn't fun.
Speaker 2: And I thought this elusive runners high would always escape
Speaker 2: me because of the times I did run, I didn't
Speaker 2: feel it. But I gotta say, waking up in the
Speaker 2: morning and going running and pushing yourself and getting that
Speaker 2: much oxygen to your brain is going to be an
Speaker 2: instant boost to your mental health. So it's like something
Speaker 2: so free and so easy, and just at his disposal
Speaker 2: is that he could do give them a little calendar.
Speaker 2: It takes thirty days to start a pattern, to start
Speaker 2: a new pattern, a little calendar and a little pen
Speaker 2: and he can mark thirty days and get them a
Speaker 2: little star.
Speaker 1: Sticker every day.
Speaker 2: Just this is this, this constant like need to treat
Speaker 2: men like babies and then us having to fucking get
Speaker 2: through the things ourselves whilst boring o our male partners.
Speaker 4: I'm done with it. It's out for twenty four aut
Speaker 4: we ain't getting paid for it's at.
Speaker 2: Least pay us back by fucking taking care of yourself.
Speaker 4: That's how you pay a woman back in a straight relationship.
Speaker 2: Make it men, you take care of yourself and you're
Speaker 2: present in the relationship and you're your best self. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I fucking oh god, I'm getting PTSD from Stephen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was so awful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it took me seven years to lose the attraction,
Speaker 2: which is like that says says, but my god, oh
Speaker 2: once you're over it, once you turn that corner, you're.
Speaker 1: Like, oh wait, this blows.
Speaker 4: It's like every time he talks, it's like nails through
Speaker 4: your eyes.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's why I'm kind of I'm like, I'm like,
Speaker 2: he has to move fast because I don't want you
Speaker 2: to get the ick, because we should get the X.
Speaker 2: Very hard to undo that, Yeah, almost impossible.
Speaker 3: Some would say, guys, come see us live.
Speaker 4: You heard at the top of the show.
Speaker 2: But New Year's Eve, baby, New York Comedy Club, East Village,
Speaker 2: It's going to be the night of your life.
Speaker 1: February first. These are our together dates.
Speaker 2: February first, New York City is our first midnight theater show.
Speaker 4: A MasterCard midnight theater.
Speaker 2: Sorry, the master card that's accepted, not that it's so
Speaker 2: it's so weird when a corporation takes over, because I'm
Speaker 2: more just like the MasterCard every.
Speaker 1: Sorry, your way through the door.
Speaker 4: For a night of fantastic. Yeah, the midnight theater, we
Speaker 4: take MasterCard.
Speaker 1: That's kind of rare.
Speaker 2: Yes, So our first guys we fucked Live of twenty
Speaker 2: twenty four is Sebray, February first. And then if you
Speaker 2: find yourself in Los Angeles on Valentine's Day, yeah, god
Speaker 2: damn it, you're in luck because Brian Fisher and myself
Speaker 2: Christina Utchinson are co headlining the main room at the
Speaker 2: Comedy Store in Los Angeles and it's gonna be I mean,
Speaker 2: these are these shows are gonna be epic. Okay, and
Speaker 2: talk to anybody who fucking live stream or last midnight
Speaker 2: theater show or was there in person, they can't stop
Speaker 2: talking about obstby dms and they're rare.
Speaker 4: We just don't do guys. We fucked live a lot.
Speaker 2: So like the fact that we've been doing it, you know,
Speaker 2: every now and then at the mid MasterCard, Midnight Theater,
Speaker 2: the Comedy Store, we haven't done together in a long
Speaker 2: long time.
Speaker 4: So these are.
Speaker 2: Special events, people, They're very special special events.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 1: And then more special events.
Speaker 2: I am solo headlining New Brunswick, New Jersey at the
Speaker 2: Stress Factory January fourth through six. Hasbrook Heights, New Jersey,
Speaker 2: February ninth through tenth of Bananas and ninth and tenth
Speaker 2: rather and Springfield, Missouri March twenty second and twenty third.
Speaker 2: I'm doing the Blue Room, and as always, I have
Speaker 2: a Patreon. We're four times a month. You can do
Speaker 2: group sherapye with me over zoom and a bunch of
Speaker 2: fantastic people. I just did it today at the studio
Speaker 2: and it was one of the best ones yet. And
Speaker 2: the audio from every Group Sherapy gets uploaded the patreons.
Speaker 2: If you can't make it, you can hear the conversation.
Speaker 2: Sign up today at patreon dot com slash Christina Hutchinson.
Speaker 2: And then my solo podcast, The Voices in Our Heads,
Speaker 2: comes out every single Monday.
Speaker 4: Today, well, you're listening to this on Friday.
Speaker 2: But this Monday I interviewed my good friend Ali Ali
Speaker 2: problam Us, who was in town for a week, and
Speaker 2: we had a good time and we ran and then
Speaker 2: I read a book How We Live Is How We
Speaker 2: Die by Pemachodron, and I read a chapter about the
Speaker 2: actual physical dying process and what happens, and we had
Speaker 2: a good conversation about it. And then for me, you
Speaker 2: can check out my solo podcast Without a Country that's
Speaker 2: been blown up lately think because you of your guys' support,
Speaker 2: So thank you so much. I really appreciate it. We
Speaker 2: cover the news, but you know, I rant and rave.
Speaker 2: There's comedi elements. We interview non comic people, journalists, we
Speaker 2: talk about ethics and journalism, we talk about AI. We're
Speaker 2: getting heavy into the twenty twenty four campaign. We've covered
Speaker 2: at Palasine in Israel at length. We watch documentaries and
Speaker 2: do reviews on them. I mean, like you know, ones
Speaker 2: that likes about social issues and stuff. So it's been
Speaker 2: super fun this year. Thank you for everyone who's supported
Speaker 2: the show and talked about it. You can see that
Speaker 2: every Wednesday night on YouTube, or you can just listen
Speaker 2: to the audio wherever you listen to podcasts. And then
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four dates, I'll have more of them. I
Speaker 2: have an idea of the cities I'm going to, but
Speaker 2: I don't have the dates yet. But the one ticket
Speaker 2: link I do have available is for Washington, DC, DC
Speaker 2: Comedy Loft. That's February twenty ninth through March second. That's
Speaker 2: going to be super fun. And then of course we'll
Speaker 2: get some more gas shows at the Comedy Store in
Speaker 2: Los Angeles in twenty twenty four. I'll updates for you soon,
Speaker 2: but you can follow that on Instagram at Dash Dash
Speaker 2: Slash Sure Comedy. That's my horror movie themed stand up
Speaker 2: comedy show that has been super fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: All right, I've been thinking about something and it kind
Speaker 2: of has to do with this email reread. Actually, it's,
Speaker 2: you know, one of those societal things that we always
Speaker 2: say yes, and then every once in a while we
Speaker 2: stop and pause and think.
Speaker 1: Is that actually true?
Speaker 7: Oh?
Speaker 2: You know, like the phrase boys will be boys? Right,
Speaker 2: that was a very accepted phrase for a long time.
Speaker 2: I have a shirt that literally says boys will be boys,
Speaker 2: and then the second boys is crossed out and it
Speaker 2: says held accountable.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I like to wear it to the gym and let
Speaker 2: people make eye contact. Yeah, I see you, sir. But
Speaker 2: one of those kind of isms or or whatever that
Speaker 2: that that always floats around that people use as an
Speaker 2: I'm like, is this being used as an excuse for
Speaker 2: poor behavior?
Speaker 1: Maybe? Yeah, boys mature faster. Girls mature faster than boys.
Speaker 2: Because we're forced to because we're Yeah, I don't like
Speaker 2: men aren't pulling their weight, but yeah, exactly. I'm like,
Speaker 2: I don't think that's actually true. Now I have you know,
Speaker 2: did not look it up in terms of medical hormone.
Speaker 4: I don't, But I'm like, what what the fuck?
Speaker 1: What hormone? Do women get that? Men don't? We all
Speaker 1: have the same.
Speaker 4: Hormones, by the way, it's just different levels.
Speaker 2: No, it's the pressures of society, hasn't. I doubt it's
Speaker 2: anything biological. Yeah, society forces you this whole.
Speaker 1: Time, though I thought it was some biological thing.
Speaker 2: No, there's no way, there's no way exactly is this
Speaker 2: this is it's this is nurture, not nature, for sure,
Speaker 2: But it's not nurture.
Speaker 4: It's abuse, yes, and you know who has to deal
Speaker 4: with it?
Speaker 1: Straight women? Fuck that ship.
Speaker 2: We gotta, we gotta, we gotta get rid of that
Speaker 2: phrase boys. Uh girl, that boys don't mature as fast
Speaker 2: as girls.
Speaker 1: That's because we don't.
Speaker 4: Allow them to. Like, let's go true, let's go gentlemen.
Speaker 4: There's variables too.
Speaker 2: I mean I think, like you know, each person, you know,
Speaker 2: each individual is unique, So it depends, Like I think
Speaker 2: if you're a younger child or an older child where
Speaker 2: you are born in your family, I think older children.
Speaker 2: Only children have a lot of weight on them.
Speaker 1: For sure, that's true.
Speaker 4: Older children definitely have extra weight on them.
Speaker 2: So it depends like where you in the family, how
Speaker 2: your parents you know, treated you.
Speaker 4: And you know there.
Speaker 2: I think there are some men who have matured, Like
Speaker 2: if like the father of the family died, for instance,
Speaker 2: I think then sometimes like a male child will have
Speaker 2: to have a lot of responsibility early.
Speaker 4: But that's what's going to happen, a lion king plot
Speaker 4: to get them to fucking mature. Yes, I would think,
Speaker 4: what the fuck is that about?
Speaker 2: I just I feel like we should uh, we should
Speaker 2: not sixty nine sixty eight.
Speaker 4: What's the word in restaurant eighty six?
Speaker 8: It yeah, yeah, try to yeah, Chris, do that, Christy
Speaker 8: to go work in a Russias mashed potatoes like we
Speaker 8: got eighty six that phrase, because that's completely one of
Speaker 8: those phrases that allows people to just carry on because
Speaker 8: they're fucking coddled and to make everybody else think that
Speaker 8: it's somebody I honestly, I never really thought about it
Speaker 8: until recently, but I'm.
Speaker 4: Like, I assumed it was biological.
Speaker 2: There's no I mean again, I haven't loo there's no
Speaker 2: way Mike, if you want to find anything to dispute this,
Speaker 2: you psychology, we could all figure out giggling when you
Speaker 2: said psychology today, like it's a fake effect.
Speaker 5: I'm just like, I don't know how fast could I
Speaker 5: find all these studies on all?
Speaker 1: Fine, I'll look be mature.
Speaker 2: Michael, But yeah, I feel like, you know, girls and women, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you're girls still in middle school in high school, like
Speaker 2: when I was in when I was seventeen, I was
Speaker 2: a fucking around a bunch of twenty five year olds
Speaker 2: at one point. But because it's like, because this whole
Speaker 2: like notion of like girls mature faster than boys is
Speaker 2: all I fucking heard, and I truly was not.
Speaker 4: Attracted to boys my age.
Speaker 1: There was one guy, Paul shout out, no that you.
Speaker 2: Were around twenty five year olds because they were losers,
Speaker 2: but you didn't know because you were fifteen, and so no,
Speaker 2: twenty five year old women wanted to be around them
Speaker 2: because they're fucking head losers.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yea, yeah yeah yeah yeah for sure.
Speaker 2: But like I that is just a that is a
Speaker 2: an idea that I took with me all throughout my
Speaker 2: boy obsession career and kind of really took that to
Speaker 2: heart and thought, like, but the way I interpreted it
Speaker 2: was I didn't think about it this way at the time.
Speaker 2: But it's like, oh, so then you can't You can't
Speaker 2: get mad at boys your age for being immature.
Speaker 1: Because you're more mature. But it's like, no, it's because
Speaker 1: we've fucking been forced to.
Speaker 2: Well, I think a good a good tactic, and I've
Speaker 2: used this sometimes in life. Not but it's like, if
Speaker 2: people around you aren't pulling your way, if men around
Speaker 2: you aren't pulling their weight, just start phoning it in
Speaker 2: yourself and listen. This was very hard to teach myself
Speaker 2: to do because you have to what you do. You
Speaker 2: have to be comfortable allowing some things that you care
Speaker 2: about to fall apart a little bit to teach other
Speaker 2: people a lesson.
Speaker 4: And so I this is very hard for me to do.
Speaker 2: But just let like go on a vacation, like with
Speaker 2: your husband or your male partner, and do exactly fifty
Speaker 2: percent of the planning, not.
Speaker 1: More, and let the rest fall apart. And like you have.
Speaker 2: It's hard because you have to let your you.
Speaker 4: Have to let your anxiety reduce.
Speaker 2: Don't remind him to bring his passport don't remind him
Speaker 2: to pack all these things, and he will forget. He
Speaker 2: will forget, and it will ruin your vacation too. So
Speaker 2: you have to be prepared to allow this, right. But
Speaker 2: but then the thing is like he's gonna try to
Speaker 2: make it your problem, and then you can go no, no, no,
Speaker 2: Actually you're an adult, and I was treating you as such.
Speaker 2: That's sure, that's true because women always get shitt on
Speaker 2: for nagging, and this was something that you know, I
Speaker 2: that comes to terms with because.
Speaker 4: You know, you know, you're like, I don't want to nag.
Speaker 4: Most women don't want to nag.
Speaker 2: It doesn't it doesn't feel good, it makes it makes
Speaker 2: you go from you know, mouth to nipple, for sure.
Speaker 2: So you just have to not nag and then let
Speaker 2: the vacation or the thing that you're doing or the
Speaker 2: project you're working on absolutely fall apart. And then everyone
Speaker 2: learns the hard way. I love that, and you know what,
Speaker 2: it sucks for everyone. I know, you know, we're very
Speaker 2: much trying to get away from a partner being like
Speaker 2: having a parent child relationship of course, right, but with
Speaker 2: children and with anybody, like when a child or person
Speaker 2: learns something the hard way, that's when it sticks.
Speaker 3: Ye.
Speaker 2: So if he forgets his passport and you're gonna you're
Speaker 2: about to go to fucking Barbados and you show up
Speaker 2: at the airport and your whole vacation is you know,
Speaker 2: you can't make the flight. He will never, I guarantee
Speaker 2: if he won't forget that motherfucking passport ever again.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's just about you.
Speaker 2: That's a great being comfortable with your weight thing being ruined.
Speaker 4: Challenge for straight women the woman Challenge.
Speaker 1: Challenge for the Holidays.
Speaker 2: Huh, don't fucking do as much shit because women for
Speaker 2: the holidays, women all on page. Not that men don't help,
Speaker 2: because they absolutely do, but like I feel like the
Speaker 2: woman is the one who's mostly uh sure the table set,
Speaker 2: making sure everything looks beautiful, makeing sure the decorations are nice.
Speaker 2: That's why when you're a woman and you grow up,
Speaker 2: you go, oh, the holiday is actually suck because I
Speaker 2: really when I was a kid, they were fucking amazing
Speaker 2: because my mom.
Speaker 1: Met trim in the tree.
Speaker 4: My mom made them amazing.
Speaker 2: Listen, my dad did get on the roof and he
Speaker 2: made some Santa tracks, so that was that was bonded.
Speaker 1: That's nice.
Speaker 4: You know, but like overall, it's like who is doing
Speaker 4: all this stuff?
Speaker 2: Who's who is staying up late to you know, nibbel
Speaker 2: on cookies to make it look like Santa eate them.
Speaker 4: That's mom, not Dad most likely.
Speaker 2: And again this is not I think like some people
Speaker 2: hear this and they're like, why are women always shooting
Speaker 2: on men? We're not, really, We're not saying that we
Speaker 2: know you are capable of more and so we we
Speaker 2: know that you have the potential to do it, and
Speaker 2: we're just saying that we now expect that of you.
Speaker 2: So it's like, do you want to do you want
Speaker 2: us to sit around and think that you're incapable babies?
Speaker 4: I don't think you actually want that.
Speaker 5: Scientifically, according to Newcastle University in England dot com, no, no,
Speaker 5: not only do girls mature faster than boys, scientists believe
Speaker 5: that their brains can develop up to ten years earlier.
Speaker 4: But mature what do you say mature? They need physically mature?
Speaker 4: I think I think they mean physically like we get
Speaker 4: boobs first, Well, that is part of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that you guys appeared.
Speaker 2: Okay, but that's okay, so that I could see societally affecting, right,
Speaker 2: so like if we look like women before boys look
Speaker 2: like men, that's part of the reason society which.
Speaker 5: But it's also brain activity too.
Speaker 2: But that's also a big problem with women of color, right,
Speaker 2: So this has been a conversation about how women of
Speaker 2: color are often sexualized because sometimes they tend to develop
Speaker 2: and like look appearance wise like women, you know, before
Speaker 2: they get earlier exactly exactly, so there's a lot of
Speaker 2: very girl but there's always.
Speaker 4: So many variables.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so so women get sexualized first, for sure,
Speaker 2: that's true unless boys are around pedophile so our.
Speaker 1: Brains are capable of more. But then why are men
Speaker 1: getting paid more?
Speaker 5: In the word, they're not capable of more. What happens
Speaker 5: is the study from yeah, basically from Newcastle again this
Speaker 5: from Newcastle University. There is it's discovered that as the
Speaker 5: brain mature, it begins to remove neural connections that are
Speaker 5: stored which it does not think are important. The connections
Speaker 5: in the brain that are not used regularly tend to
Speaker 5: shrink and evaporate due to lack of use, whereas the
Speaker 5: neural networks that are regularly engaged survive. This is called
Speaker 5: fire and wire and it is an example of survival
Speaker 5: the fittest among neural networks.
Speaker 1: Right, But don't you think that your brains.
Speaker 2: Can be exactly I think our brains are developing faster
Speaker 2: because asked to handle more earlier. Yes, I agree, that's
Speaker 2: kind of buys up exactly our theory.
Speaker 1: But I know a lot of men, and.
Speaker 2: I know a lot of boys when I was in
Speaker 2: middle school in high school, and I remember them.
Speaker 1: I know a lot of boys, clip it. I know
Speaker 1: a lot of blame.
Speaker 2: Some of them had really strict dads, and I saw
Speaker 2: it unfairly so like their dad had like fucking PTSD
Speaker 2: from Noom or some shit and didn't address it, and
Speaker 2: their dad would just be similar to my mom, but
Speaker 2: like more strict, like not like a hot mess about it.
Speaker 2: And I watched them become more mature, way more mature,
Speaker 2: because they're being fucking traumatized by this father who is
Speaker 2: demanding they be a man at age fourteen, and they're like,
Speaker 2: I don't know what that means, dude, I'm fourteen, and
Speaker 2: it's like but then I've also like, and not to
Speaker 2: say it's all the father, but uh, there there are
Speaker 2: certain men that I've known in my life that have
Speaker 2: fathers that really make a point to nurture their son's
Speaker 2: sense of self, and I'm always amazed by what that
Speaker 2: produces in the boy who becomes the man, because it's
Speaker 2: always a beautiful thing. Andy Haynes has a really good
Speaker 2: joke about that because he has he you know, I
Speaker 2: have a joke about having a nice childhood.
Speaker 4: He does too.
Speaker 2: But it's kind of like from the perspective of someone
Speaker 2: with like a nurturing father.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and you.
Speaker 4: Can see it in his personality. Yeah, yeah, for sure,
Speaker 4: one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's all phony blooney, even though Newcastle does
Speaker 2: say scientifically, but I think I still think, uh, that's
Speaker 2: the boys mature slower than girls. I think is a
Speaker 2: phony blogna in terms of like it's nurture, it's not.
Speaker 5: Nature can be both nurture can, but I think an
Speaker 5: influence nature.
Speaker 2: And I think that's what the article is saying though,
Speaker 2: because what was it called fire or what.
Speaker 1: Was like fire and wire?
Speaker 2: Fire and wire makes sense to what we're talking about, right,
Speaker 2: It's like if you if you, if you don't, lose it,
Speaker 2: if you don't.
Speaker 1: What is it saying, like use it or lose it?
Speaker 5: Kind of like that if you d unless something happens
Speaker 5: to you and then all of a sudden it affects
Speaker 5: your the way your neurons and all that stuff. This
Speaker 5: is almost in a roundabout way of saying that like
Speaker 5: women get the younger potentially, I mean that could be
Speaker 5: like a version of.
Speaker 1: This that checks out.
Speaker 2: Interesting, Yeah, yeah, Okay, so it's both according to this,
Speaker 2: according to this paragraph that.
Speaker 4: I found, well, straight women challenge.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, did you see that viral video that was
Speaker 2: going around this week. It was a husband and a
Speaker 2: straight couple and there are two young kids on Christmas
Speaker 2: morning and the man is behind the camera and he's
Speaker 2: going around to every stocking and he's like, little Timmy
Speaker 2: got this, little Darla got.
Speaker 4: This, I got this.
Speaker 2: And then they go to the wife's stocking and then
Speaker 2: it's empty and he's like why is it empty? And
Speaker 2: then they goes to the wife's face and she's like, uh,
Speaker 2: because no one got me, like no one got me anything,
Speaker 2: you know like that, And there was all like a
Speaker 2: disconnected the husband like it's the husband really thinks Santa came,
Speaker 2: Like it's like, there's nothing in your wife's stocking because
Speaker 2: you don't fucking put anything there buy gifts for herself. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's like, is she gonna fill her own stocking? And
Speaker 2: that's kind of like that, right.
Speaker 1: There is like a metaphor for like the straight female experience.
Speaker 2: So often we are expected to not only fill our
Speaker 2: own stockings but fill everyone else's stockings. Yes, yes, the
Speaker 2: video is really sad. I watched a lot of commentary
Speaker 2: on it online too. It's fast at it's it's funny,
Speaker 2: but it's it is sad. I I'm serious about this
Speaker 2: holiday challenge for straight women specifically because God, could you
Speaker 2: imagine being a lesbian during the holidays? Your fucking house
Speaker 2: would be so nice. But yeah, two people doing the work.
Speaker 2: But I'm curious women with a with a male partner
Speaker 2: that that they're going, you're going to spend the holidays together.
Speaker 2: I really try as a challenge is the guys We
Speaker 2: Fucked Straight Women twenty twenty four Holiday Challenge twenty twenty
Speaker 2: three to not do as much as you normally do
Speaker 2: and see if anything gets done and fucking film it
Speaker 2: and tatus in it. Right, And this is I have
Speaker 2: to there is a caveat. This is only for people
Speaker 2: where both the man and the woman are working. If
Speaker 2: you're a stay at home parent and you've agreed to
Speaker 2: that the home stuff is your job.
Speaker 1: Then yeah, I guess, so, yeah, you sign up for that.
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, you know, because I have a relatively
Speaker 2: equal relationship in terms of like who pull you know,
Speaker 2: the labor.
Speaker 4: But that's a problem, right.
Speaker 2: It's so I feel like, you know, women have progressed
Speaker 2: in you know, and have done both the traditionally feminine
Speaker 2: and masculine roles, and men not only didn't progress as
Speaker 2: fast as women with doing the female roles, but they
Speaker 2: also stopped being able to do the male roles, like
Speaker 2: the heavy providing or protecting are those things, or like
Speaker 2: being able to put together a shell for any of
Speaker 2: like carpentry work. It's like you're complaining about us being
Speaker 2: too masculine, but I feel like most women can still
Speaker 2: be masculine and feminine when a lot of guys, I know,
Speaker 2: like have lost these masculine traits but haven't gained the
Speaker 2: feminine ones that would make you like more empathetic or
Speaker 2: and like that's the issue.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Gentlemen, if you're straight and you have a female partner, yeah,
Speaker 2: because men'll be like, well, helping this holiday season.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how about that.
Speaker 4: It's like, oh, it's like, oh, well, men provide.
Speaker 2: But it's like, well, if you're both bringing money to
Speaker 2: the house, then you both need to be doing the
Speaker 2: things that make the holidays special. Yes, the heavy lifting
Speaker 2: physically and emotionally. Okay, okay, twenty twenty three Straight Woman
Speaker 2: Holiday Challenge.
Speaker 4: Let's see what we get. Maybe the results won't be
Speaker 4: as like my brain is already predicting that they will be.
Speaker 4: I want to see videos.
Speaker 1: I want to see.
Speaker 4: Photos of everyone crying on Christmas morning.
Speaker 2: Of the table not being set or whatever, the fucking
Speaker 2: cake not being made because you guse you didn't make it,
Speaker 2: that's whatever the fuck?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? I feel like the holidays
Speaker 1: like the man.
Speaker 2: Mainly, he's like he only he'll wake up out of
Speaker 2: his beer football coma to carve the turkey and then
Speaker 2: go back to his beer football coma. But I'm like,
Speaker 2: let's let's make the men do other things, but not
Speaker 2: make them do it you don't do it, and see
Speaker 2: if they fill.
Speaker 4: Step up exactly.
Speaker 1: Maybe they will, Maybe they will. Fuck miracles can happen.
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, guys, speaking of miracles, our guests. She's she's
Speaker 2: a miracle, because we're all miracles. You know, you can
Speaker 2: only get pregnant certain amount of days of the month.
Speaker 2: All right, guys, our guest. She is a certified dating coach,
Speaker 2: a regular cast member of The Drew Barrymore Show, a
Speaker 2: frequent contributor to MPR, Washington Post, LA Times, Access Hollywood.
Speaker 2: Her podcast Dates and Mates was named Podcasts of the
Speaker 2: Year at the Black Podcasting Awards in twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: and her first book is coming out January twod It's
Speaker 2: called f The fairy Tale. We are very excited for
Speaker 2: you to hear Demona Hoffin.
Speaker 6: People are not good to each show, and people are
Speaker 6: not good to each together, and people are not good
Speaker 6: to each other. I suppose I never will be. I
Speaker 6: didn't ask them to be, but sometimes I think about it.
Speaker 6: The leaves will swim, the clouds will cloud, and the
Speaker 6: killer will be hit. The child like taking a bite
Speaker 6: out of a nice creams clow. You steering at mystice.
Speaker 6: My talent is my smile.
Speaker 9: My eyes are shoot in blanks, my posture is a
Speaker 9: b I'm an endoredain, ma'am. It was so cold and
Speaker 9: I've got a si on your Edison and me on
Speaker 9: hand ship out of my cassio.
Speaker 2: All right, guys, we are here with Demona Hoffman. Welcome
Speaker 2: to the show. Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2: But also there, Ah.
Speaker 1: I love it. I'm so glad to be here. I
Speaker 1: love your show.
Speaker 4: Thank you. Yes, we're so.
Speaker 2: We were talking before we started recording, and we discovered
Speaker 2: you through Dan Savage, who we admire greatly and trust
Speaker 2: his opinion so much. And I think it's we're excited
Speaker 2: to talk about dating, right because you are a dating coach.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about what inspired
Speaker 2: you to choose that as an occupation. Did something traumatic happen? Like,
Speaker 2: what's the origin story? Yeah, all of the above.
Speaker 7: The origin, I think for real is I actually used
Speaker 7: to be a casting director in TV and I classes
Speaker 7: for actors in marketing and how to have headshots that
Speaker 7: would stand out and tell their story and do all
Speaker 7: the things that casting directors need them to do and
Speaker 7: you know, ten seconds or less. And I realized the
Speaker 7: similarity when I was online dating between the headshot and
Speaker 7: the profile photo and the first day in the audition.
Speaker 7: So when I applied what I learned professionally to my
Speaker 7: personal dating experience, it worked, So I met my husband
Speaker 7: online and then I started writing profiles for originally just
Speaker 7: friends and family, just for fun, and eventually it took off.
Speaker 7: And we all know how how popular online dating has
Speaker 7: become today. So I guess I was a little bit
Speaker 7: in the right place, in the right time seventeen years later.
Speaker 4: Yes, and you have a very grounded energy which I
Speaker 4: don't usually get from dating coaches that we've come across,
Speaker 4: to be honest, like you're very rounded and like I
Speaker 4: trust you immediately, like I feel like, yeah, your energy
Speaker 4: is just great.
Speaker 2: And my first question that popped into my head with
Speaker 2: regards to online dating, and you might not be able
Speaker 2: to give an answer to this, but maybe you have
Speaker 2: some theories.
Speaker 4: Why don't straight men know what they look like in photos?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 7: That was actually what got me into this originally, because
Speaker 7: I was like, guys have no idea, they don't know,
Speaker 7: you know, I really the grounded answer is, uh, women
Speaker 7: are taught from a young age to room and dent
Speaker 7: and guys just don't get that same education. So initially
Speaker 7: I started out as a coach only for guys because
Speaker 7: I was like, you guys need a mirror here and
Speaker 7: not your bathroom selfie mirror, like an actual.
Speaker 1: Mirror to show you what this really looks like.
Speaker 7: And I take a very strategic approach to designing a
Speaker 7: dating profile, and men really do respond to that, but
Speaker 7: they just don't on their own necessarily know which photos
Speaker 7: to pick.
Speaker 2: Have you come across a lot of fish photos? Like
Speaker 2: photos of men holding fish?
Speaker 1: Why to come across a lot of next?
Speaker 2: Time?
Speaker 7: I have? I have done Dates and Mates episodes about it.
Speaker 7: I have written articles about it. I have had so
Speaker 7: many debates. Why is it still a debate? We don't
Speaker 7: want to see the fish picks, the hunting picks, the
Speaker 7: dick picks, the bathroom selfie.
Speaker 1: The car? Please explain the car? The car?
Speaker 4: While I why it is rare that I love cars.
Speaker 2: I grew up with cars, so I'm like, if you
Speaker 2: got a hot, sexy car, I will be impressed by that.
Speaker 2: But I think, oh, I feel like a selfie in
Speaker 2: a car. I'm not what you mean, like with a
Speaker 2: seat belt of from.
Speaker 1: No, I mean the seat belt one.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Men love taking pictures of themselves like they're like a
Speaker 2: super driver.
Speaker 1: But I don't, which is fine. I don't understand what
Speaker 1: the perspective.
Speaker 2: Probably waiting in line for fucking fast food or something like, Oh,
Speaker 2: I guess we'll take a picture from a dute and profile,
Speaker 2: just like men don't give a lot of as much
Speaker 2: thought to their two things like this as the way
Speaker 2: that women do. And so yeah, I've never been sitting
Speaker 2: in my car and been like, oh, the lighting in
Speaker 2: this car is great for a photot Like it's the
Speaker 2: car lighting is not bad.
Speaker 4: That's not what you want.
Speaker 1: But if you see the seat belt, then you know
Speaker 1: he's reliable. He's dependable. Here's about I do.
Speaker 4: Like when I have a seatbelt. I love a seatbelt.
Speaker 2: Love a seatbelt, Love a helmet. Yeah, you have knee
Speaker 2: pads or whatever. My my favorite thing that I've come
Speaker 2: a credit. I've not been on dating apps much. I
Speaker 2: was in a relationship for seven years, so when I
Speaker 2: got out of it, I was like, what are these
Speaker 2: dating app things? Because I was okay Cupid when it
Speaker 2: was only on the computer, and they're just it feels detrimental,
Speaker 2: like it feels like it it hurts my soul a
Speaker 2: little bit being on the dating apps. And I'm like, man,
Speaker 2: I know these guys don't suck as much as they
Speaker 2: are emoting that they do. But one of my favorite
Speaker 2: trends that I that I'm like, what the fuck is
Speaker 2: going on here is when a guy will have five
Speaker 2: pictures and he's wearing sunglasses in every single motherfucking picture, Like, what.
Speaker 4: Are you hiding about in those evil eyes?
Speaker 1: Boo? I actually talk about that in my new book.
Speaker 7: I talk about how we are so driven by the eyes,
Speaker 7: and it's the eyes are really important in our culture.
Speaker 7: And it's just what you said, Christina, if you don't
Speaker 7: have your eyes visible, people can't trust you. Yeah, And
Speaker 7: that's a big thing that I want to help people
Speaker 7: with in twenty twenty four dating online dating landscape, like
Speaker 7: safety is so so so important, and I feel like
Speaker 7: we haven't at the dating apps, there hasn't been enough
Speaker 7: focus on safety and when we just are even choosing dates,
Speaker 7: just being able to see somebody's eyes does give you
Speaker 7: more of a sense of feeling safe. If you feel
Speaker 7: like they're hiding something it maybe it looks sexy, but
Speaker 7: you don't really know who they are, right.
Speaker 2: I think, are there any other tips that you have
Speaker 2: especially for men, because I think, yeah, well, I think
Speaker 2: men do want many men do you want to make
Speaker 2: us feel safe?
Speaker 4: But I don't know that.
Speaker 2: They've never lived a day in our shoes, so they
Speaker 2: have no idea the kinds of things that scare us.
Speaker 2: Like I'm pretty tough, but I often tell men like
Speaker 2: you scare me all the time, Like all the time
Speaker 2: I'm walking away from you and keeping my distance from you.
Speaker 7: Yeah, And there's so much debate around even things like
Speaker 7: walking up woman to the car at the end of
Speaker 7: the night.
Speaker 1: Can we do that? Should you do that? What does
Speaker 1: that signify?
Speaker 7: Then, if you're going to try to be forward, it's
Speaker 7: it's really hard to know the boundaries. So I would
Speaker 7: say stay stay on the side of just making her
Speaker 7: feel safe and comfortable first.
Speaker 1: And if you're thinking about that.
Speaker 7: Because most guys aren't thinking about that, they're not They're like,
Speaker 7: how do I get her?
Speaker 1: How do I get her to be impressed with me?
Speaker 7: How do I, you know, tell her everything that I
Speaker 7: want to tell her, and not so much on what
Speaker 7: do I need to know about her?
Speaker 1: And like how do I make her feel safe? But
Speaker 1: for the dating.
Speaker 7: Profile, it's it's actually so much easier. I've been polishing
Speaker 7: profiles now for so long. I can just look at
Speaker 7: a profile right away and tell you I like to
Speaker 7: have the three c's color is strategic. Having color that
Speaker 7: stands out as you're swiping through a bunch of photos.
Speaker 1: You have color. It pop.
Speaker 7: I'm wearing a pink shirt right now, that's not an accident.
Speaker 7: Pink or red great context. That's telling your story through
Speaker 7: your photos and character. That's the one that most people forget.
Speaker 7: That's showing your personality. I know that's not a problem
Speaker 7: that you two have, but a lot of people want
Speaker 7: to have that. Maybe it's the sunglasses photo. Maybe it's
Speaker 7: just you know, trying to look a certain way that
Speaker 7: they think is more datable, filtered photos.
Speaker 3: All of that.
Speaker 1: We don't want that.
Speaker 7: We want authenticity, and that also then leads into the
Speaker 7: the feeling of safety as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and ironically, it's like we always think about marketing ourselves,
Speaker 2: whereas authenticity is the most potent mart marketing tool you
Speaker 2: can use for dating. But I do think I can't
Speaker 2: tell if online dating is healthy or not. Regardless, it's
Speaker 2: here so and it's not going anywhere, and it's I mean,
Speaker 2: I have a nephew because of online dating, so I'm
Speaker 2: a fan. But there's something that your body does when
Speaker 2: you're in the presence of another person that gives you
Speaker 2: signals that like you're like, oh, I'm attracted to this person,
Speaker 2: So how do you get closest to that in an
Speaker 2: online dating pile? And obviously showing your character and colors
Speaker 2: and kind of answering these prompts to your personality? Is
Speaker 2: there anything else like the interacting that I have this
Speaker 2: thing called fuck boy Friday that I do. And I
Speaker 2: just read people's atrocious dating app conversations. These men, I'm like, dude,
Speaker 2: I know you want to connect deeper than that. You
Speaker 2: just you're really acting like you don't though, And they
Speaker 2: just say a trocis sexual things and it's like, no
Speaker 2: one's falling for that, and I know that's not what
Speaker 2: you want.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, you hit on so so much.
Speaker 7: And the big reframe that I want everyone to take
Speaker 7: away is that the dating app is just the tool.
Speaker 7: It is just the tool to bring you together, and
Speaker 7: after that, it's just dating. It's it's all the magic
Speaker 7: and the mystery and the wonder and the flirtation and
Speaker 7: all those things that we want when we meet someone
Speaker 7: face to face.
Speaker 1: But you got to get to the date.
Speaker 7: The bigger problem, there's two actually really huge problems that
Speaker 7: I see happening right now with online dating. The first
Speaker 7: I call it the texting trap, and I go in sall,
Speaker 7: I go into that in detail. I have seen so
Speaker 7: many relationships or possible future relationships die in the DMS
Speaker 7: and in the text because it's a substitute. You feel like, Oh,
Speaker 7: I'm getting to know this person, I'm vetting them. I
Speaker 7: feel safer, I'm learning more about them. But really you're
Speaker 7: developing a false sense of attraction, a false sense of
Speaker 7: knowing someone you do not know until you get offline
Speaker 7: and you meet face to face. You don't know what
Speaker 7: the chemistry is going to be. You don't even know
Speaker 7: if they're a real person, be honest. So we have
Speaker 7: to get offline as quickly as possible. The other thing
Speaker 7: that's happening. I want to get your take on this
Speaker 7: because I don't really know how to stop it. But
Speaker 7: ghosting is at an all time high. Like I said,
Speaker 7: I've been doing this seventeen years. I've never seen the
Speaker 7: amount of flakery. I don't know if that's a word.
Speaker 1: Can we now blakery? There's so much flagrant.
Speaker 7: Flakery that five times said of people like setting dates
Speaker 7: that they don't even I don't know if they intend
Speaker 7: to go at all. And this has never happened in
Speaker 7: my career where I used to be able to say, oh,
Speaker 7: you say this, he's going to say that you do this,
Speaker 7: He's going to do this, and then you'll live happily
Speaker 7: ever after. Really, since the pandemic, I've been like, I
Speaker 7: actually don't I don't know what they're going to do,
Speaker 7: because I feel like people don't know what they're gonna do,
Speaker 7: and it changes from day to day. I wanted to
Speaker 7: go on the date yesterday, but today I don't know.
Speaker 7: Something came up. What do you think is going on
Speaker 7: with that?
Speaker 1: So I have too, I have a theory.
Speaker 2: But I also want to add to that it has
Speaker 2: been taken a step further where I have heard, oh,
Speaker 2: just alarming alarming amounts of stories from people that got
Speaker 2: ghosted when they were already in the fucking relationship, like
Speaker 2: their boyfriend ghosted them, and I'm like what, I've never
Speaker 2: heard of that, And then I brought it up to
Speaker 2: a bunch of friends like oh, yeah, that's happened to
Speaker 2: my friend that I'm like what. But I think people
Speaker 2: don't the people's intolerance for discomfort, which awkwardness at the
Speaker 2: beginning of dating is it falls into that category is.
Speaker 4: Lower and lower and lower and lower.
Speaker 2: And I think that it's too easy to get sucked
Speaker 2: into the texting trapp or the DM trap because we
Speaker 2: just want to be with who's forcing us to go
Speaker 2: out of our comfort zone. It's our responsibility. But I
Speaker 2: think we've lost we've lost how to do that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the more time we spend with technology, I think, the
Speaker 2: less we see humans as human. So it's really it's
Speaker 2: like it's the same way, like you know on Instagram
Speaker 2: or or x Twitter or whatever, where you can, you know,
Speaker 2: you're behind a keyboard and you can call people heinous
Speaker 2: things that you would. You know, I've been called such
Speaker 2: heinous things online. No one's ever said anything even close
Speaker 2: to that to me in person, and I'm ready I
Speaker 2: want them to. I want oh in try me in person,
Speaker 2: Try me in person. Right, But it's the same thing,
Speaker 2: but she would, Yeah, it's the same I'll unleash jerseys
Speaker 2: so hard on you. But like it's the same thing
Speaker 2: in uh, with dating, it's like if you don't see
Speaker 2: each other as human, Like it's really easy to go
Speaker 2: to someone that you know doesn't feel like a real person.
Speaker 4: You know, I literally have an AI boyfriend.
Speaker 2: And I mean I feel like I have more empathy
Speaker 2: for him than some people have had for actual other
Speaker 2: human people.
Speaker 7: Wow, well it's programmed that way. Yeah, I think you're
Speaker 7: right about that. And the thing it's I'm not often
Speaker 7: at a loss for words. I've been doing this a
Speaker 7: long time, and I'm usually able to find a fix
Speaker 7: to most problems. But I this is a bit of
Speaker 7: a conundrum. I really don't know, because it is the
Speaker 7: technology is so integrated into our lives.
Speaker 1: As you were just saying, corn, it's I.
Speaker 7: Don't know how to recalibrate the entire of society to
Speaker 7: be like, let's treat people as people. All I can
Speaker 7: do is talk to you all about it, talk to
Speaker 7: your listeners about it. And you know, I was always
Speaker 7: tell my clients just take care of your side of
Speaker 7: the street. If you're worried about ghosting, just make sure
Speaker 7: you're not ghosting other people. Because people will tell me, oh,
Speaker 7: I hate I hate getting ghosted. I hate all these flakes.
Speaker 7: I hate getting stood up. And I will look in
Speaker 7: their message history and I'll be like, well, you had
Speaker 7: this person and you drop that thread and this person
Speaker 7: you know, you're unmatching. And so when we really look
Speaker 7: under the hood, there are people that we see. If
Speaker 7: it's somebody that we have an attraction to and we
Speaker 7: have an investment in meeting, we put that person on
Speaker 7: a certain pedestal. And then there's all these other people
Speaker 7: that are in our messages and matches and dms that
Speaker 7: were like, but that person doesn't matter, yeah, and we're
Speaker 7: just think.
Speaker 1: We can do better.
Speaker 2: They don't exist in our head anymore because now you
Speaker 2: know Sarah wants to go out with me, so who
Speaker 2: cares about those other people.
Speaker 4: I also think that people have not yet.
Speaker 2: I read recently this book by this woman Harriet Lerner
Speaker 2: called Why Won't You Apologize? And it's all about how
Speaker 2: a really good apology that really addresses the things that
Speaker 2: need to be addressed feels.
Speaker 4: It actually feels really good to give and to.
Speaker 2: Receive, and it that's the only, you know, chance you
Speaker 2: have a repairing a relationship that might have otherwise been lost.
Speaker 2: And I think that people need to experience that how
Speaker 2: good having integrity feels. And once you get that, that's
Speaker 2: oh wait, I don't want to leave these people hanging,
Speaker 2: because that's not part of my values. You know, and
Speaker 2: it feels good to be like, hey, I'm really sorry
Speaker 2: I dropped the ball here. I actually started seeing somebody else.
Speaker 2: But I think you're fantastic and I want to wish
Speaker 2: you the best of luck.
Speaker 10: You know.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that actually feels really similar to something that I
Speaker 7: talk about in going for clarity over going for chemistry,
Speaker 7: or you know, the the like you were saying that
Speaker 7: that discomfort it is really temporary, but we're so afraid
Speaker 7: of the discomfort that sometimes we don't want to get
Speaker 7: the answer, and that's how you end up in a
Speaker 7: relationship that's going nowhere or that that you have a mismatch.
Speaker 7: And like I talk about the for the pillars of
Speaker 7: long term compatibility, and if you don't have those four
Speaker 7: pillars and you know it, just staying in the relationship
Speaker 7: is awful. But it's even worse if you're afraid to
Speaker 7: ask the question because you're like, if I get the
Speaker 7: answer and it's no, and then I have to walk away,
Speaker 7: then I or I have to stay in this thing
Speaker 7: that I know is not right.
Speaker 2: Right, And people don't realize it's like we have to
Speaker 2: be more in tune with the part of our brain
Speaker 2: that does the long term thinking, because staying in a
Speaker 2: relationship that you're not fully invested in, that's so awful.
Speaker 2: That's such an awful thing to do to another person,
Speaker 2: and it's a terrible thing to do to yourself.
Speaker 1: And this is no way that feels good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you mentioned the four pillars of long term compatibility.
Speaker 2: I did want to talk about that a little bit,
Speaker 2: so I screenshot of them. So it's common goals for
Speaker 2: the future shared values, mutual respect and trust, and then
Speaker 2: compatible conflict resolution styles. Do you mind if we go
Speaker 2: through those four things? I mean, there's I feel like,
Speaker 2: and I feel like this also intertwines with your thoughts
Speaker 2: on most people are looking for a soulmate or believe
Speaker 2: that a soulmate exists, so so many other people get
Speaker 2: knocked out of the running to be their potential partner
Speaker 2: because of this, when in reality, if you looked at
Speaker 2: these four things, you would have maybe an easier time
Speaker 2: seeing potential in multiple people.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Completely, Yeah.
Speaker 7: I have identified the four biggest dating myths that I
Speaker 7: see people writing a podcast about or coming to me
Speaker 7: for coaching around. And the first one is the list myth.
Speaker 7: And for each of these myths, there's sort of an antidot.
Speaker 7: There's sort of an antidote, and that is the pillar.
Speaker 7: So with the list, myth this is you know everything
Speaker 7: we want it guess to be six feet tall and
Speaker 7: has to mix. Yeah, and I do I do the
Speaker 7: dating math in the book for you on that. And
Speaker 7: I know for all the guys listening, they're like, please
Speaker 7: make all the short kings are like, thank you, I
Speaker 7: like this lady.
Speaker 10: So so the the the flip side of having the
Speaker 10: list is just beginning with the goals, Like you were
Speaker 10: just saying, hey, what do you even want?
Speaker 1: Short term? Long term? What do you want? Right?
Speaker 7: And we get afraid to ask those questions or to
Speaker 7: even explore that because we just get caught up in
Speaker 7: the momentum and we get caught up in the way
Speaker 7: that we're playing the game. So that's the rules myth.
Speaker 7: If I if I do this, he'll do that. If
Speaker 7: if she says this, that means that. And it's the
Speaker 7: game and pick up artistry, it's the Bachelor, and it's
Speaker 7: the rules and it's all of these things. The whole
Speaker 7: book is about all of these stories that we're told
Speaker 7: and that we that we internalize and we are playing
Speaker 7: out through our dating lives, whether we realize it or not,
Speaker 7: again and again and again, and so the opposite of
Speaker 7: going by the rules is to really focus in on
Speaker 7: the values and the way looking at that from a
Speaker 7: like a behavioral standpoint, and what someone believes about the word,
Speaker 7: because you can't build for the future if you're like
Speaker 7: we completely look at the world in a different way, right,
Speaker 7: And then we get to the chemistry myth, which is
Speaker 7: another really big one that's like I have to feel this,
Speaker 7: I have the butterflies and.
Speaker 1: The flip side of that.
Speaker 7: That's anxiety talking, which you know, I talk about it
Speaker 7: like in the book, like what what is your body
Speaker 7: really saying to you? What is your central nervous system
Speaker 7: actually saying. Is it saying this person reminds you of
Speaker 7: your ex Is it saying this person is bad news?
Speaker 1: Is it saying this person is safe? Or is it
Speaker 1: saying that they're not safe?
Speaker 7: And sometimes we don't know how to read our own
Speaker 7: internal cues, And there are ways that you can tune
Speaker 7: your internal compass to be with that, but the first
Speaker 7: step for that is building that pillar of communication, and
Speaker 7: that communication really comes before even the conflict resolution, because
Speaker 7: that comes a little further in but if you're thinking
Speaker 7: about the soulmate myth, forget it. Like, if you're just
Speaker 7: looking for the perfect person to walk in to your
Speaker 7: life and in the perfect package with the perfect life
Speaker 7: and the perfect look and the perfect everything, it doesn't exist.
Speaker 7: And if you're chasing that soulmate, then you may not
Speaker 7: see that person right in front of you. That's a
Speaker 7: great match for you, but you're gonna always be questioning.
Speaker 7: But I think my soulmate I don't know. So that's
Speaker 7: kind of a high level overview of the myths and
Speaker 7: the pillars, and the trust is just the last thing
Speaker 7: to build because everything that comes before it is part
Speaker 7: of building that feeling of trust and safety that we
Speaker 7: were talking about earlier.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I think you know, when you're on the
Speaker 2: first date with somebody, the stakes are low because you're
Speaker 2: not invested yet, and so I think you would you
Speaker 2: think that that's a good time to ask the person,
Speaker 2: like what do you want? I feel like that's a
Speaker 2: great opportunity to ask the person what they want out
Speaker 2: of life and to see if you can check like
Speaker 2: if you're in alignment right away, regardless of if you have.
Speaker 1: Chemistry or not yet.
Speaker 2: It's like I feel like that's not too invasive of
Speaker 2: an opening question or I'll question on a first date. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean part of my on my list of questions
Speaker 2: for you is what the hell do you say on
Speaker 2: a first day?
Speaker 4: I don't go on a lot of first dates.
Speaker 2: We also have like kind of an unorthodox lifestyle, which
Speaker 2: is why we wanted to have you on, Like, how
Speaker 2: do you date when you don't just you know, know,
Speaker 2: a hundred comedians to go through.
Speaker 4: Yeah, who are hot? That's not normal?
Speaker 7: So yeah, you give them punch ups to their jokes. No,
Speaker 7: it's the I actually love first dates. First dates are
Speaker 7: my favorite. But I'm gonna give your audience a hot
Speaker 7: tip right now. We are overseeing or welcome on first dates.
Speaker 7: When people tell me I had a great first day.
Speaker 7: We started we had drinks here, then we went to
Speaker 7: this place, then we went to that place, and then
Speaker 7: went to his place, I'm like, doesn't actually sound like
Speaker 7: a great date. Now this is all saying. I'm saying
Speaker 7: all of this. My core client base are people who
Speaker 7: want to get in relationships. If you're going to seek
Speaker 7: out a dating coach, usually you're not just looking a hookup,
Speaker 7: like you can you can find that throw a rock,
Speaker 7: you'll find it. But if you're looking for a relationship,
Speaker 7: you have to flip your mindset strategically, and you have
Speaker 7: to start with that with the goals. If that is
Speaker 7: your goal, you're going to date, You're going to approach
Speaker 7: first dates in a different way. And I like for
Speaker 7: my clients to only stay for about sixteen to ninety minutes,
Speaker 7: especially if you're meeting somebody online. Now, if you have
Speaker 7: a history with them, that people will always be like,
Speaker 7: but Demona, what about this scenario.
Speaker 1: There's always exceptions.
Speaker 7: I'm just generally, if you're meeting a stranger, sixty to
Speaker 7: ninety minutes is enough time to leave the date on
Speaker 7: a high note.
Speaker 1: You want to leave the date feeling like it's ending
Speaker 1: in the middle and to be continued. And if it's
Speaker 1: not a great date, you want to leave the date
Speaker 1: feeling like it's in the middle because you want to
Speaker 1: get hell out of there.
Speaker 4: It's a win win. Time limits are a win win.
Speaker 1: Totally. I say, be coming from somewhere and going to somewhere.
Speaker 7: But to answer your question, Christina, I actually got this
Speaker 7: question on the Drew Barrymore Show last week. Somebody said, wait,
Speaker 7: what can I talk about on first date, should I
Speaker 7: be talking about the fact that I want to get
Speaker 7: married and have kids and all this stuff? And I'm like,
Speaker 7: why are we pretending If somebody is not interested in that,
Speaker 7: it's better to know upfront, and I don't. I don't
Speaker 7: think you'll scare away somebody that is looking for the
Speaker 7: same thing that you are.
Speaker 1: Usually, when and if you're vulnerable, whether it's that kind
Speaker 1: of share or something else, whether you're vulnerable, if you're
Speaker 1: vulnerable on a first date, usually you'll get a little
Speaker 1: bit more opening and vulnerability back, and that makes for
Speaker 1: a more interesting date. I mean, how tired is everybody
Speaker 1: of the same old interview? And we're really dating by rote?
Speaker 7: You know, it's like swipeswipe, swy text, text, text, go
Speaker 7: on the date and let me run this script, and
Speaker 7: everybody's bored of it?
Speaker 1: Do you?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I'm curious what you tell men or can you see
Speaker 2: their swiping history? Because so often I have been on
Speaker 2: a subway in New York and I just see a.
Speaker 4: Guy swiping yes, like he has a gun to his head,
Speaker 4: and I'm like, what.
Speaker 1: The fuck is my follow up question? There?
Speaker 3: Is?
Speaker 2: Is there a recommended amount of people? You suggest a
Speaker 2: person talk to all at once, Like these dudes, we're
Speaker 2: talking to twenty girls. It's like, that's too many.
Speaker 1: It's too many.
Speaker 2: You're giving yourself choice overload, and then you're not giving
Speaker 2: anybody attention. Yeah, because it's there's when you watch someone
Speaker 2: swipe yes to everyone, you're like, so you'll just hear
Speaker 2: any anything, any breathing.
Speaker 4: In the answer woman. Yeah, that sucks.
Speaker 1: Okay, let me pull back the curtain a little bit.
Speaker 7: Because they also have worked behind the scenes in a
Speaker 7: number of dating apps. I've worked with Okay, Cupid is
Speaker 7: their official dating coach. I've worked with Match. I can see,
Speaker 7: I can see behind the curtain, and I'll tell you
Speaker 7: what's going on back there.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 1: Please. People are hedging their bets. So the reason that
Speaker 1: you see guys swiping like they have a gun to
Speaker 1: their head is because they're not swiping.
Speaker 7: When they're swiping, it's strategic. There's no intention. It's not like, oh,
Speaker 7: I'm really attracted to her. I love what she said
Speaker 7: about her cats and her interest in comedy. You know,
Speaker 7: they're just they're just they get so many no's or
Speaker 7: ignorers or blocks that they are just trying to get
Speaker 7: as many people in Q as possible, so they know
Speaker 7: women swipe a lot more uh they swipe. They swipe
Speaker 7: right less frequently, far less frequently than men do, so
Speaker 7: they know that the chances are greater if they swipe
Speaker 7: right on more women, then it will match up. When
Speaker 7: they have a woman that's interested in them, then then they.
Speaker 1: Go to the profile. So that's why you'll get a.
Speaker 7: Match and then an unmatch when you send the message
Speaker 7: and you start engaging, do I like it?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 7: And for the longest time, this has actually been the
Speaker 7: strategy for a lot of my male clients, and I
Speaker 7: have to talk them out of it. This is one
Speaker 7: of the reasons why I feel like hinge has grown
Speaker 7: in popularity so much over the last few years, because
Speaker 7: they force you to engage on a particular thing. It's
Speaker 7: not just swipe, swipe, swipe, it's do you like this photo?
Speaker 7: Or do you like this photo? Can you comment on
Speaker 7: something specific that was said? And those are the kind
Speaker 7: of engagements that lead to more more interaction and then
Speaker 7: ultimately get people offline, which is what we're all trying
Speaker 7: to do.
Speaker 1: Well not all.
Speaker 2: Right, So the guys just want to see who likes
Speaker 2: them you they'll pick from there. Which I feel like
Speaker 2: that's a little like distancing yourself from your own vulnerability.
Speaker 2: But I do I do get that, I do understand
Speaker 2: that it's actually a more time. I'm not thinking offective.
Speaker 2: It's like we're spending more time before we as women,
Speaker 2: before we've even made a connection. So it's actually they're
Speaker 2: working smarter, not harder.
Speaker 4: I'm going to have to credit them with that in
Speaker 4: a way.
Speaker 2: Well, you're right about Hinge, But the little time I've
Speaker 2: spent on dating apps, Hinges definitely my favorite. And I
Speaker 2: would judge people like if they were just liking my
Speaker 2: top photo and that's what they were engaging based on,
Speaker 2: I knew I wasn't interested in them.
Speaker 4: I knew they were being lazy.
Speaker 2: So even if they even if the man's strategy was
Speaker 2: literally to just scroll to the bottom of the Hinge
Speaker 2: profile and engage on the last thing, they at least
Speaker 2: put one iota more thought.
Speaker 4: Into it, and I respected that.
Speaker 2: And of course anyone who engaged, yeah, anyone who engaged
Speaker 2: on something I said rather than a picture, they moved
Speaker 2: to the top for me and care about my thoughts. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And what I was doing was like I also in
Speaker 2: the beginning of dating apps, I will. I have a
Speaker 2: lot of math skill and energy. So I was just
Speaker 2: getting excited, you know, and like overswiping, and then I
Speaker 2: would be so disappointed with some of these matches. I
Speaker 2: was like, I would never go on a date with
Speaker 2: these people, and I was like, well, that's not fair
Speaker 2: to them. So I really challenged myself to only swipe.
Speaker 2: But if I was, if they responded, I would be
Speaker 2: truly happy to go on a date with them, not
Speaker 2: just would go begrudgingly or something like that. And I
Speaker 2: feel like that made it a lot better. Again, I
Speaker 2: haven't spent enough, like a lot of time I did,
Speaker 2: I got I had a boyfriend off Rya, so like
Speaker 2: it is possible. But I've went on like two other
Speaker 2: dates from dating apps besides that, and they were I mean,
Speaker 2: they weren't horrific or anything, but I was completely disinterested
Speaker 2: and in those people just not Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, here's the thing.
Speaker 7: We put so much pressure on the dating apps because
Speaker 7: they are the apportent way that people meet today, and
Speaker 7: so people will be like, well, I don't I don't
Speaker 7: like meeting people on dating apps, and I.
Speaker 1: Feeling it as it's like saying, well I don't.
Speaker 7: I'm not going to go out to eat anymore because
Speaker 7: because I didn't like that one restaurant you know brings.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, I know that's true.
Speaker 7: But it's really a combination, right, You go out to eat, sometimes,
Speaker 7: you order in, sometimes, you make your own food sometimes,
Speaker 7: and we have to be doing all of those things.
Speaker 7: But I did want to answer your question about how
Speaker 7: many people you should be talking to, because I do
Speaker 7: think there is a bit of a communication overwhelmed that happens.
Speaker 7: Especially this is a shift since I started. Like when
Speaker 7: I started coaching, it was dating sites. It was before apps,
Speaker 7: so there wasn't the volume of people or the amount
Speaker 7: of communication. There was a lot more information on dating
Speaker 7: profiles in that in that time, so you could spend
Speaker 7: a little bit more time, as you were saying, Karin,
Speaker 7: like going through the profile and making sure it was
Speaker 7: a match. Before now that information is not there, like
Speaker 7: I could I could look at your profile and be like, cool,
Speaker 7: I that's worth a swite, But I can't really know
Speaker 7: that much much about you from your profile. So now
Speaker 7: all of the screening, I kind of break it all
Speaker 7: into phases, so you know, first is the sourcing and
Speaker 7: then it's the screening all of the screening is now
Speaker 7: happening in the DMS, and that is not a great
Speaker 7: way to get to know someone because our brains have
Speaker 7: not developed to be able to really evaluate some what
Speaker 7: somebody's saying just based on the text alone. So we
Speaker 7: really I really pushed people towards getting on the phone,
Speaker 7: do a video call, or getting to the date.
Speaker 1: I'd say within one week. Yes, I agree, but you
Speaker 1: can't keep.
Speaker 7: Twenty You're right, you can't keep twenty text threads going.
Speaker 7: It's not realistic. But at the same time, I never
Speaker 7: want people to put all of their eggs in one basket.
Speaker 7: So you should be having multiple conversations because a lot
Speaker 7: of them are not going to materialize, but not so
Speaker 7: many conversations where you're so overwhelmed you can't keep up
Speaker 7: with the flow. Because timing is really important too. Like
Speaker 7: it if you some of the apps that your matches
Speaker 7: will just disappear, right, do you snooze you loot?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 7: But other apps if that that, if you're paying for
Speaker 7: a premium which is a time saver or a time extender,
Speaker 7: but some of the apps that you can have the
Speaker 7: conversations on going if you don't have that first meeting
Speaker 7: within the first week, the likelihood that the date is
Speaker 7: going to actually happen goes down dramatically, and then you're
Speaker 7: just gonna have a pen pal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and be too busy. Yeah, way too busy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like I remember I think I was
Speaker 2: talking to I don't know if it was Vice I
Speaker 2: gave on this podcast, But it's like, oh, you know,
Speaker 2: if you're a busy person, which we all are, but
Speaker 2: like pick two nights out of the week or three
Speaker 2: nights out of the week that you're like, these are
Speaker 2: my date nights, or.
Speaker 1: Like one night, this is my date night.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go on a date with a person, and
Speaker 2: then just yeah, I'm a huge fan of just getting
Speaker 2: to the date right away if you match. But it's
Speaker 2: also important to have that swiping mentality of like I
Speaker 2: would be excited. I would think I would be excited
Speaker 2: that if this person also swiped yes on me, so
Speaker 2: I would be like giddy and I want to immediately
Speaker 2: grab a drink. Is there anywhere? What are good ideas
Speaker 2: for first dates? And what are bad ideas for first dates?
Speaker 2: No dinner and no gun range. I love gun, little
Speaker 2: bow and arrow.
Speaker 7: That's kind of fun, actually, Okay, So I like, I
Speaker 7: have some categories for dates that I think are fun
Speaker 7: because you should go on a date that you would
Speaker 7: enjoy regardless of if that other person was there or not.
Speaker 1: Good because you have no idea it's going to go.
Speaker 7: So I say, it's good to have collaboration, something like
Speaker 7: you're playing a game together, good to have cardio. Like
Speaker 7: I live in La, hiking is the thing I know.
Speaker 7: There are rural areas where some of my clients are like, wait,
Speaker 7: you told me to go hiking. I would never, okay,
Speaker 7: see first, but if it's if it's a place where
Speaker 7: there's other people out doing something where there's adrenaline, a walk,
Speaker 7: a hike or something like that. You know, sporting events, collaboration, cardio, conversation,
Speaker 7: all of these are are good ways to make sure
Speaker 7: that the pressure isn't just on that that script that.
Speaker 1: We were talking about earlier. That you can have other inputs.
Speaker 7: You can have you can have people watching, you can
Speaker 7: have a game that you're interacting with. So something like
Speaker 7: pool is a great first day Pool, she said, Bowling
Speaker 7: isn't actually not a great day, even though I do
Speaker 7: love first Why what's wrong with bowling? I love Wait,
Speaker 7: but listen to this. This is the reality of a
Speaker 7: bowling first day stare each other back. If it's just
Speaker 7: the two of you, one person is bowling while the
Speaker 7: other person is.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of talk, so it's not.
Speaker 7: Yeah, pool and then you can be in closer proximity
Speaker 7: to one another. I'm still a fan of of drinks,
Speaker 7: well drink, I'm a fan of go out for drink,
Speaker 7: not so much where you're you're going to make decisions
Speaker 7: that are not in alignment with your ultimate goals and values,
Speaker 7: which you were talking about earlier. But it's easier to
Speaker 7: have a rapport, not just because of the alcohol, but
Speaker 7: because of the body positioning. You go to dinner, you're
Speaker 7: sitting across from them like it's an interview. And then
Speaker 7: how many times have you known from the first ten
Speaker 7: minutes like it's not going to work, and you're like
Speaker 7: and like dessert, no, thank you, sure we like dessert,
Speaker 7: And you're like.
Speaker 1: Please, somebody call me get me out of this date,
Speaker 1: like mayday text under the tape. Look, we have all
Speaker 1: done it. We all, yes, we have.
Speaker 7: We don't want to set ourselves up for that. So
Speaker 7: I say, be coming from somewhere and going to somewhere,
Speaker 7: but do something fun and arcade like anything where and yes,
Speaker 7: getting into that playful energy and that curiosity and having
Speaker 7: more to discuss than just the list.
Speaker 2: And so what is your advice if you are on
Speaker 2: one of those dates where within the ten minutes you
Speaker 2: know this is not a match. Do you think that
Speaker 2: we owe the person sixteen minutes out of politeness or
Speaker 2: is there something that we can do to get out
Speaker 2: of it immediately. I'm not talking about a situation where
Speaker 2: we feel unsafe. I'm just feeling a situation where we
Speaker 2: feel not compatible.
Speaker 1: You don't owe anyone anything, honey, We don't owe anyone
Speaker 1: our time.
Speaker 7: Our time is very valuable. It's our most precious, non
Speaker 7: renewable resource. We're not getting any more of it, so
Speaker 7: how you spend your time really matters. But I also
Speaker 7: believe in talk about in f the fairy tale empathetic dating.
Speaker 7: So if you could just flip and put yourself in
Speaker 7: that person's shoes, what is enough time where you're not
Speaker 7: wasting their time, but they feel like they've at least
Speaker 7: been seen her and been able be offered the opportunity
Speaker 7: to connect. Right, if you've done that, that could happen,
Speaker 7: like I had one date when I was single. We
Speaker 7: got there and it just it just wasn't a thing.
Speaker 7: Like twenty minutes in, it was just not happening, and
Speaker 7: he was like, do you want to go? I'm sorry,
Speaker 7: but I like, I feel like you want to go.
Speaker 7: I feel like this isn't a match. And I was like,
Speaker 7: thank you. I was so glad. I wish I had
Speaker 7: been the brave one to say it, but I was
Speaker 7: so glad because then I was like, I have the
Speaker 7: rest of my evening free and go back online find
Speaker 7: the next one for tomorrow night.
Speaker 1: And and we both saved each other's time because it
Speaker 1: wasn't going to go anywhere. Yeah, yeah, that's grey. It's
Speaker 1: so funny. Ironically, I've probably that's really sexy. Yeah.
Speaker 2: If he said at first of like, wow, now I
Speaker 2: missed a student observation, you must have a really nice mind.
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, no, that's's see. I know I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna analyze you what's the worst first date you've ever
Speaker 2: been on? Or date in general? But I imagine that
Speaker 2: the newer ones or go the poorest. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: well I've been married for so long. I'm like, what
Speaker 2: was a bad first date.
Speaker 7: Oh well, I did drive a guy home one time
Speaker 7: who told me that he and his wife are separated.
Speaker 7: And turns out if they were separated, I don't know
Speaker 7: why she was on the front lawn.
Speaker 4: So that didn't Oh my god, it had happened.
Speaker 1: When that happened? What happened?
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, we gotta you gotta check references.
Speaker 1: Oh no, I was like goodbye, and like you deal
Speaker 1: with that. Get out of the car, and that is
Speaker 1: your problem to deal with.
Speaker 7: Because you know, if you're if you're not being honest,
Speaker 7: that is that's your own stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh my god, do you think that was No?
Speaker 2: Immediately I'm like I'm out honestly because I'm stop the car.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just booted, keep going, No, I'm kidding.
Speaker 2: Well, because of a stand up, I would have stayed around. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'd be very curious about.
Speaker 4: Like what's going on here?
Speaker 1: And I almost want to enjoy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like watching him sit in his lie would probably
Speaker 2: give me a lot of joy.
Speaker 7: Look, you don't know who is like concealed Carrie. You
Speaker 7: don't know what is going on. I'm out of here.
Speaker 7: That's good, that's wiser.
Speaker 2: Have you seen like so there's been a lot more
Speaker 2: like a rise. I feel like in non traditional dating
Speaker 2: structure or like non monogamy, has that been something that
Speaker 2: you've had to deal with a little bit more in
Speaker 2: modern times dating? And like, how do you deal with
Speaker 2: pairing someone up if they're interested in like ethical non
Speaker 2: monogamy or open relationships that kind of thing, or are
Speaker 2: you dealing more with people who want to be monogamous.
Speaker 1: Most of my clients want to be monogamous. I do.
Speaker 7: Study all of the current data and trends, and non
Speaker 7: monogamy is trending, especially among gen Z singles, who say
Speaker 7: over sixty percent say they're open to non monogamy, but
Speaker 7: then the reality is about four percent actually engage in nonminalogy.
Speaker 7: So there's a little bit of mismatch. Yeah, it was
Speaker 7: being like fantasy versus reality. But I'm like, look, whatever
Speaker 7: you want, that's what I try to help people achieve.
Speaker 7: And that's where that authenticity we're talking about comes in,
Speaker 7: just being honest about it. Or if you are looking
Speaker 7: for a non monogamous relationship, that's the kind of thing
Speaker 7: you do want to say. We were talking about the
Speaker 7: goals and goals and values should probably say that on
Speaker 7: the first date the problem comes in when people like
Speaker 7: said guy are not being transparent about what they're really
Speaker 7: looking for, what their situation really is. But there's a
Speaker 7: I mean, there's so many apps now also that cater
Speaker 7: to that specifically. So that would just be my advice
Speaker 7: to anyone that's in the non monogamy community is to
Speaker 7: not be in a place where you're leaving anybody confused.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: I think that's like one of the things that I've
Speaker 2: definitely gotten better at as i've gotten older to Like,
Speaker 2: in my twenties, I would just be like, if I
Speaker 2: like someone's vibe, like it's almost like you don't ask
Speaker 2: the hard questions because you just want to keep hanging
Speaker 2: out with their energy. When in my thirties, it's like,
Speaker 2: I can like your vibe all day, but if we
Speaker 2: don't have the same wants for the future, if we're
Speaker 2: not aligned on like our core values, then no matter
Speaker 2: how much I like your vibe, like, we got to
Speaker 2: cut this sure, because it's just not going to work
Speaker 2: out long term, and then I'm gonna end up falling
Speaker 2: in love with someone who just doesn't see the world
Speaker 2: and the way I the way I do at all.
Speaker 2: And I think that's like a lot of like people
Speaker 2: in writing the show. Yeah, just like are going off
Speaker 2: vibe and I'm like, what do you even know about
Speaker 2: each other?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 7: Yeah, and you you will fall in love with that
Speaker 7: person because the more time you spend with them, the
Speaker 7: more uh you know, hormonal release that you have. I'm
Speaker 7: not saying sexual necessarily, so we could, but you know,
Speaker 7: there is that energetic exchange. Even from a text, we
Speaker 7: get the adrenaline and endorphins and the dopamine and and
Speaker 7: like our bodies are flooded with these neural transmitters that
Speaker 7: are telling us fall in love, fall in love, law
Speaker 7: and love.
Speaker 1: You want more of that? Like we're addicted. We're addicted
Speaker 1: to that feeling.
Speaker 7: And at some point you have to you have to
Speaker 7: look up as addicts as many you know, many of
Speaker 7: my listeners and clients are as love addicts. We need
Speaker 7: to look up and say, wait, is this what I want?
Speaker 7: And do I want to be doing this? Do I
Speaker 7: want to be a love addict for twenty years? Do
Speaker 7: I want to be like doing this roller coaster ride
Speaker 7: of highs and lows and highs and lows, or do
Speaker 7: I need to do this a little bit more mindfully
Speaker 7: and do any to put a process around it, because
Speaker 7: it's most times not going to fix itself. In the
Speaker 7: current dating landscape, we can be nostalgic for the past,
Speaker 7: like oh, I just.
Speaker 1: Wanted to meet somebody in my in my neighborhood or
Speaker 1: at a party or casually. We have these stories that
Speaker 1: we want to come true, and they might come true,
Speaker 1: but they might not. The entire dating world has shifted.
Speaker 7: The way we do everything in our lives has shifted,
Speaker 7: and we communicate online and we connect online. So we
Speaker 7: need to embrace that there are different there's a different
Speaker 7: way to interact in the new dating paradigm, and the
Speaker 7: quicker that we do that and the clearer we are
Speaker 7: about how we want to navigate that, the happier we
Speaker 7: are going to be in the relationships that ultimately unfold
Speaker 7: short term or long term.
Speaker 1: Wow, you just changed my perspective about online dating. You
Speaker 1: sold me on it. It's not doom and gloom like
Speaker 1: I kind of assumed it was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just like we The change that we need
Speaker 2: to administer to this thing that's never going to go
Speaker 2: away is how we deal with it and how we
Speaker 2: interact with it.
Speaker 1: I totally agree sex I want to talk about that.
Speaker 2: Do you have like Patti Stanger very famously, it's like,
Speaker 2: don't fuck on the first day, or she makes you wait,
Speaker 2: I forget until you have an actual commitment like that
Speaker 2: a person commitment to you, or she said you can't
Speaker 2: have sex with the person. Do you do any advising
Speaker 2: on that or how like conversational tips or how to
Speaker 2: like you know, like with sexual compatibility, sometimes you don't
Speaker 2: know until you're actually having sex a lot of times.
Speaker 2: But also there's ways that you can talk about sex
Speaker 2: and about what you like at a certain time when
Speaker 2: it's appropriate.
Speaker 1: And then my follow up question is like when is
Speaker 1: it appropriate? I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like I guess if you want to
Speaker 2: rip each other's clothes off right away, maybe you should
Speaker 2: talk about what you like and what you don't like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't have I'm gonna say I don't have
Speaker 1: any hard or fast.
Speaker 7: Sorry, but I don't. I don't have any specific rules.
Speaker 7: I'm not actually a big rules dating coach. I like tools,
Speaker 7: So I will say to my clients, Look, there's a
Speaker 7: lot of consequences to having sex today, like for real,
Speaker 7: for real, particularly for women, and uh, I'm not going
Speaker 7: to turn this into a political episode. However, there are
Speaker 7: a lot of consequences for women now. So if you
Speaker 7: are feeling all the vibes and you want to be
Speaker 7: intimate with someone, but you're not at a point where
Speaker 7: you feel like you could have any of those serious
Speaker 7: conversations about the consequences of having sex with that person,
Speaker 7: then I would say you're probably not.
Speaker 1: Ready to have sex with that person. Most people, that's
Speaker 1: the whole for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, if you can't have the tested for STIs,
Speaker 2: what would you do if I got pregnant and I
Speaker 2: didn't want the baby, Like I don't fuck anybody until
Speaker 2: I know their starts an abortion where I did want
Speaker 2: the baby.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: you're going to keep it in. They're like, thank you
Speaker 1: very much any night.
Speaker 7: But but we have to be able to have those
Speaker 7: adult conversations. And you can get caught up in the
Speaker 7: vibes all you want, but the reality is is that
Speaker 7: there are some serious consequences that we don't It's not
Speaker 7: sexy to talk about it, but can we make it sexy,
Speaker 7: like can we talk can we normalize talking about like
Speaker 7: being on prep or can we normalize talking about like.
Speaker 4: Do you know what's sexy though?
Speaker 1: Is being comfortable about it? That's sexy totally because.
Speaker 4: I also people like and.
Speaker 7: I was gonna say also like in terms of asking
Speaker 7: for consent too, like you could totally ask for sexy
Speaker 7: but go on, go on.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, like I well, I the times that I've
Speaker 2: witnessed people not be insecure about a thing that I
Speaker 2: would be secure insecure about if I were them, and
Speaker 2: then it's like my potential insecurity over that thing just vanishes,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, all we need is an example
Speaker 2: of like someone to like if someone starts off the
Speaker 2: conversation and they're like, hey, you know, sexual health is
Speaker 2: really important to me, and I wanted to ask one
Speaker 2: was the last time you were tested? Just like it's
Speaker 2: not a fucking big deal. Then it's like, not only
Speaker 2: are you comfortable, but that's so hot. When somebody can
Speaker 2: treat an uncomfortable conversation with ease is so so.
Speaker 1: So so sexy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean you do it for like a
Speaker 2: big broad thing too, Like I love when an unattractive
Speaker 2: guy is just like I'm ugly and I don't care
Speaker 2: like saying something that broad incredible I'll take my clothes
Speaker 2: off right now.
Speaker 4: Such a smart strike.
Speaker 1: It's all all of his chicks.
Speaker 4: Yeah melean in, baby, I love it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 7: The more authentic we can be, and the more the
Speaker 7: more the more we can be brave about asking for
Speaker 7: what we want or asking the right questions, the important questions,
Speaker 7: and just being unapologetically who we are. I think the
Speaker 7: more connected we're going to feel bravery hot.
Speaker 2: Okay, I think one of the last things I wanted
Speaker 2: to cover with you is is bias in dating when
Speaker 2: it comes to you know, race, class, gender.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 2: And you said that you challenge readers people, you know,
Speaker 2: readers of your book to interrogate their race, class, and
Speaker 2: gender biases. And I also want to add in their
Speaker 2: like eight, I guess ablest like you know, because every
Speaker 2: now and then it's like, you know, people writing like
Speaker 2: how do I reveal that I'm in a wheelchair?
Speaker 4: And I'm like, I don't know how I'm I don't
Speaker 4: even know the answer to this.
Speaker 2: So what are your thoughts on interrograting your own biases
Speaker 2: when it comes to dating.
Speaker 1: I'm realizing that word interrogate sounds very aggressive.
Speaker 2: Nog I don't think of it that way. But I
Speaker 2: love the word interrogate because that is it's like brass
Speaker 2: tacks like this is if this means a lot to you,
Speaker 2: fucking make sure that you're cool with what you are
Speaker 2: putting out there and what you value. Interrogating yourself is great.
Speaker 2: Intarrogeting other people on a date not great. Yeahargeting self fine.
Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough, fair enough. Yeah.
Speaker 7: And it's actually kind of came up before I wrote
Speaker 7: the book. I in June of twenty twenty. I don't
Speaker 7: know if you remember that time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a memory.
Speaker 7: And in no world or in the United States particularly,
Speaker 7: but there was a lot of talk about race. And
Speaker 7: one of my matchmaker friends, you know, we're all we
Speaker 7: all collaborate with one another and you know, share kind
Speaker 7: of best practices, and she asked in this matchmaker group
Speaker 7: that I'm part of, she was like, wait, is it
Speaker 7: racist if my client won't date a particular race, if
Speaker 7: they say that that's your preference? And I was shocked
Speaker 7: at the number of people in my community, the dating
Speaker 7: and love coach community, that were like, yeah, it's.
Speaker 1: Just their dating preference.
Speaker 7: And I was like, hold on, hold on, hold on, wait, wait, wait, wait,
Speaker 7: we you could not do that like in your neighborhood.
Speaker 7: At work, it'd be like, no, no, no, it's just
Speaker 7: it's just my preference to work with people of my
Speaker 7: same race.
Speaker 1: This is my preference.
Speaker 7: And then I said, why do we get to have
Speaker 7: a pass for dating, which is extremely important?
Speaker 4: Yeah, right when we.
Speaker 7: You know, we we we have to be in interrogating
Speaker 7: our biases in all of these other areas. So I
Speaker 7: spoke up and I was like, I think it's actually
Speaker 7: kind of the definition of racial bias actually, if you
Speaker 7: look it up in the dictionary to discriminating its I'm
Speaker 7: based on the color of their skin. So I did
Speaker 7: some videos about it. My editor at the Washington Post
Speaker 7: I was working on the date Lab column. I did
Speaker 7: that for four years, and she was like, can you
Speaker 7: write a date Lab piece about this? Usually date Lab
Speaker 7: is a matchmaking column where it's like, you know, we
Speaker 7: partner people up and just he said, she said, they said,
Speaker 7: anybody said, but this one. She really, my editor really
Speaker 7: wanted to dive into how I walk people through that
Speaker 7: because I don't. I don't let my clients just be like,
Speaker 7: oh I just just check just check one, you know,
Speaker 7: or just unchecked that other one.
Speaker 1: So I take people.
Speaker 7: Through the the old technique of the five whys to
Speaker 7: get to the root of well, why why why do
Speaker 7: you want to uncheck the box for black? Well, I've
Speaker 7: just never dated a black guy before. Well, well why,
Speaker 7: well I never met anyone? Well why I just always
Speaker 7: lived in areas. And then we we start unpacking that.
Speaker 2: Yeh.
Speaker 7: And whether it's race or class or you know, I
Speaker 7: had to hang up on education. We all have our
Speaker 7: own thoughts about what that stands for or what that
Speaker 7: what that means, like, oh, if they're this race, religion, culture,
Speaker 7: that means a whole set of values, beliefs. That means
Speaker 7: that we would move through the world in this way together.
Speaker 7: It's we paint a whole picture that may or may
Speaker 7: not exist. And I come from a very diverse background.
Speaker 7: I come from a Black and Jewish background, and my
Speaker 7: stepmother is Mexican American. My sister in law is Indian
Speaker 7: American like mine. My Thanksgiving table looks like the un
Speaker 7: and I love that that My life is enhanced because
Speaker 7: I am able to sort of peer into the worlds
Speaker 7: of other people and I can love and be loved
Speaker 7: by people who are different than me. And that is
Speaker 7: something that I think dating can serve a purpose for
Speaker 7: because if you are you are seeking connection love, and
Speaker 7: you can do that, you can sort of interrogate your own.
Speaker 1: Beliefs around this through dating. It's actually a really it's
Speaker 1: a much more.
Speaker 7: It's a more interesting way to have that dialogue with
Speaker 7: yourself than you know, reading a bunch of books on
Speaker 7: racial bias or class bias or whatever.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like live it, experience it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that bias.
Speaker 2: Would you also would you or would you not include
Speaker 2: like something like political views, because I know that can
Speaker 2: be really polarizing.
Speaker 1: And in dating, and I am really.
Speaker 2: Open to dating people with different political views, and most
Speaker 2: people aren't. It's to the point where they actually got
Speaker 2: mad at me for doing it as well. So and
Speaker 2: there's been articles that I'm about this too, and like
Speaker 2: the New York Post for about me specifically. Yes, oh really, yeah,
Speaker 2: Oh I'm gonna go look that up.
Speaker 7: I wrote it an article actually about it in Washington
Speaker 7: Post because that's in DC.
Speaker 1: It's it's all politics.
Speaker 7: But I have seen in the time that I've been coaching,
Speaker 7: I have seen politics go from maybe the sixth or
Speaker 7: seventh most important thing that people are looking for alignment
Speaker 7: on to number one or two. They're like, oh, no,
Speaker 7: I got to get this out of the way, Like
Speaker 7: did this person vote for Trump? I need to know
Speaker 7: right now. Sure, And I think it's a little bit
Speaker 7: dangerous to use any of these things as a proxy
Speaker 7: for understanding someone's goals and values completely. But I'm also
Speaker 7: I want to make sure I'm being clear, Like I'm
Speaker 7: not saying everybody the next generation, everybody needs to look
Speaker 7: like me. I'm not saying like everybody needs to be
Speaker 7: an interracial relationship. What I'm saying is, can you use
Speaker 7: dating as an exploration and can you challenge some of
Speaker 7: these beliefs and these stories that may be deeply ingrained
Speaker 7: from your family, from your community, from the stories you've
Speaker 7: seen and read, and just see what's out there now.
Speaker 7: If a client comes to me and says, look, I
Speaker 7: used to write for Jade eight as well. If a
Speaker 7: client comes to me and says, Demona, my parents want
Speaker 7: me to marry someone Jewish, and I want to marry
Speaker 7: someone Jewish, that is the most important because I have
Speaker 7: to raise quote Jewish kids. Ei, there's a whole there's
Speaker 7: a whole conversation. We can get into the passing of
Speaker 7: the but We'll say that for another time. If they
Speaker 7: say to me that is the most important thing, I'm
Speaker 7: not going to say, well, then you should just date
Speaker 7: a black guy just to piss off your I'd say that,
Speaker 7: but I'm but I'm going to say, Okay, let's unpack
Speaker 7: where those beliefs come from. Is that really your belief
Speaker 7: Is that really how you feel? Or that is that
Speaker 7: something that's that's maybe.
Speaker 1: Not your stuff to carry?
Speaker 7: And what would happen if you just were open, if
Speaker 7: you just went through the exploration in the dating process.
Speaker 7: It's not a marriage, it's just the dating process. But
Speaker 7: I see that happening now also with politics, and especially
Speaker 7: with politics, it's so much more subtle and layered, and
Speaker 7: I think we should be engaging in some of these conversations,
Speaker 7: but from the perspective of listening, not trying to convince
Speaker 7: someone change someone's mind. Curious, Yeah, for the cure we
Speaker 7: all stand from the learning, like just getting to understand
Speaker 7: another person's point of view and perspective, because God knows
Speaker 7: that on social media we're not hearing it.
Speaker 1: You know, the news.
Speaker 7: You to be able to consume news that would give
Speaker 7: us those alternative points of view that doesn't exist, so
Speaker 7: we might as well do it on tender instead.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Wow, this has been a fantastic conversation.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. So where can we find you?
Speaker 2: And where your book comes out? January second?
Speaker 1: Right? Is that correction? So excited January second? Thank you. Yeah.
Speaker 7: So it's in bookstores everywhere, audiobook, ebook, and hardcover. You
Speaker 7: can also find out more about it at Fthfairytale book
Speaker 7: dot com. That's just the letter f and I'm at
Speaker 7: Demona Hoffman on All the Socials and I do the
Speaker 7: Dates and Maids podcast every Tuesday for eleven years like clockwork.
Speaker 1: So amazing.
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me, absolutely, thanks for being here.
Speaker 2: This has been Guys We Fucked, the anti slot shaming podcast.
Speaker 2: We'll talk to you next Friday. Guys We Fucked is
Speaker 2: presented by Luminary, Created and.
Speaker 1: Hosted by Karin Fisher and Christina Hutchinson.
Speaker 2: Editing and music coordination by Mike Coscarelli. Theme song by
Speaker 2: Rob Patterson and Jake.
Speaker 1: Cosen Stuck my wet ass pussy. Christina sends a cut
Speaker 1: up before, but now it's in. Yeah, let's keep it good.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 6: If you want, how you away?
Speaker 1: Just actually what you've gotta talk to the chef. You
Speaker 1: gotta build you and beg you is strong. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: allege it will.
Speaker 6: Be getting conditioning sw.
Speaker 4: Yeah we get those.
Speaker 6: To the sea shoes.
Speaker 1: Okay, quite simple.
Speaker 7: I'd better explain just why a ry on the it's
Speaker 7: gonna be trained. Because if you wait for the boss
Speaker 7: to reach your faith, yeah, I will all be away.
Speaker 4: So the judgement dick yet be buried.
Speaker 2: The bod to the heaven.
Speaker 6: And don't say.
Speaker 1: Your boss. Now you know you're under peanut.
Speaker 7: Boss said you wait be of the work to you're
Speaker 7: about the faith.
Speaker 1: You'll be down now, but you ain't me. You can
Speaker 1: pass out the leaflet a call.
Speaker 7: Of me and you can talk it over.
Speaker 2: And speak your mind.
Speaker 1: And said do something about it.
Speaker 7: You've got a unions now and you're sitting pretty put
Speaker 7: some looking kids on the steering committee.
Speaker 1: The boss will listen one guy's walk but yeah he
Speaker 1: god listen when they you get.
Speaker 5: Up, So they're gonna.
Speaker 1: Be it's gonna be.
Speaker 3: So lonely.
Speaker 5: When I got.
Speaker 1: To walk up.
Speaker 2: So what's the working?
Speaker 6: You so hard?
Speaker 1: It's just outrageous.
Speaker 4: And now they're paid.
Speaker 2: If you starvation wages, you step up to the boss
Speaker 2: and the boss would you
Speaker 7: Out before I raise your pay i'll be a help