Speaker 1: Hello, this is Let's talk about miss Baby and I
Speaker 1: am your host, Live back with another conversation episode. Today,
Speaker 1: I had on returning guest Meghan Cleveland, who is just
Speaker 1: so flip and lovely and loves Thebes as much as
Speaker 1: I do, and I mean, what more could I ask for?
Speaker 1: Megan came on to talk about not only Thebes, but
Speaker 1: also that cursed family of Oedipus and his you know,
Speaker 1: sibling children. Megan has written a YA retelling about is Mani,
Speaker 1: the daughter of Oedipus, and so I was thrilled to
Speaker 1: have her back on the show to talk all about that,
Speaker 1: because I love Thebes, but I also love the idea
Speaker 1: of YA Greek myth retellings, because I mean, there's so
Speaker 1: many retellings now and they're all lovely, but I feel
Speaker 1: like there's not a lot of YA. And maybe it's
Speaker 1: that I'm not paying as much attention to YA, but
Speaker 1: maybe it's just because there's a lack And if the
Speaker 1: story of a girl who finds out that her father
Speaker 1: is actually her brother and her mother is actually her
Speaker 1: grandmother also they're both you know, if that isn't fit
Speaker 1: for a YA novel, I don't know what is This
Speaker 1: episode also features probably some of the hardest I've ever
Speaker 1: laughed into the microphone for similar reasons to the whole
Speaker 1: Oedipus of it all. I'm gonna let you wait not
Speaker 1: so patiently for that moment. It was such a joy
Speaker 1: talking to Meghan and hearing all about this book. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I hope you all sit back and enjoy this love
Speaker 1: letter to Thebes in the form of a conversation about
Speaker 1: a novel. Conversations novelizing the best ancient city state riddles
Speaker 1: of the Sphinx with Meghan Cleveland. I would love to
Speaker 1: hear about your book and Thebes. And like, I know,
Speaker 1: I'm only saying Thebes. I recognize it's about specific people
Speaker 1: in Thebes, but you know me, I just fucking love Thebes.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I know. So I just want to hear everything.
Speaker 1: But yeah, tell me about your you know whatever you
Speaker 1: want to share about your characters and your novel.
Speaker 2: And sure, So I wrote a little introduction just to
Speaker 2: remind people who I am, because it's been a while
Speaker 2: since they heard from me. So my name's Meg and Cleveland.
Speaker 2: I have a BA in Classical Studies in Classical Languages
Speaker 2: from the University of Guelph and an MA in classics
Speaker 2: from the University of Western Ontario, and since graduating, I
Speaker 2: decided to pursue my lifelong dream of becoming an author
Speaker 2: using my knowledge of classical history, literature, and archaeology to
Speaker 2: adapt classical myths for young adults. And I'm so happy
Speaker 2: to talk to you about my upcoming self published book
Speaker 2: on the podcast. Literally, I was rewriting this book I
Speaker 2: don't know, two or three years ago and listening to
Speaker 2: your podcasts and thinking wouldn't be so great if I
Speaker 2: could talk to Lev And here we are, So yeah,
Speaker 2: this is like such a good moment.
Speaker 1: So I love it because too, I mean, I know
Speaker 1: there's some ya. Well, there's definitely a lot, but like,
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of them are adult and
Speaker 1: and like there's also this habit of like calling adult
Speaker 1: books that are written primarily for women calling them ya.
Speaker 1: So I also love to have one that is like, no, no,
Speaker 1: this is ya, like because there should be ya too,
Speaker 1: And also we should not call all books written for
Speaker 1: women ya. It's a great distinction.
Speaker 2: I've always loved YA and I think a lot of
Speaker 2: Greek myths really lend themselves well to that sort of genre.
Speaker 2: Because it's a lot about self discovery and finding out
Speaker 2: who you are and like family secrets. So I think
Speaker 2: it really works out for young people.
Speaker 1: Speaking of family secrets though, like I also think you
Speaker 1: have like the best characters for ya, but also family secrets.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, So I'll just give a little description of
Speaker 2: the book before I start ranting about it.
Speaker 1: Please.
Speaker 2: So in Riddles of the Sphinx, is Mena, the daughter
Speaker 2: of the legendary Oedipus, refuses to be a background character
Speaker 2: in the tragedy of her family. Is Mini makes a
Speaker 2: wager with Apollo, the god who cursed her family, agreeing
Speaker 2: to go into his service if she cannot stop the
Speaker 2: war between her brothers. Is meeting must travel all across
Speaker 2: ancient Greece to learn the source of her family curse
Speaker 2: and try to break it before war severs her family forever.
Speaker 2: But in a family at war with itself, is she
Speaker 2: destined to be the only survivor.
Speaker 1: I mean, well, mythologically, we got some Pathetically, Oh, I
Speaker 1: love that. I mean, like just all all the family
Speaker 1: Cynthia's obviously are my favorite, but like, I just love
Speaker 1: the story of like the line of Edipus so much.
Speaker 1: I feel like there is. It's so interesting because our primary,
Speaker 1: you know, sort of the most famous source is like Sophocles, right,
Speaker 1: but like we don't know what he was changing from
Speaker 1: the myths that he was working off of, because we
Speaker 1: don't really have what came before him, which I'm just
Speaker 1: kind of obsessed with when it comes to this myth
Speaker 1: because it was huge, it was so important, and yet
Speaker 1: like all we have is this play, which, as people know,
Speaker 1: it's just like movies adapting history, Like we don't know
Speaker 1: what they changed. Like there's a Napoleon movie out right now,
Speaker 1: and I bet you it's bonkers. So like, yeah, like Sophocle,
Speaker 1: it's gould be wild. Like so, I mean this is
Speaker 1: me Like I also, you know, focus on the myths obviously,
Speaker 1: but I'm so curious kind of how you wanted to
Speaker 1: work with that, you know, given the sourcing, and like
Speaker 1: what you wanted your characters to be like in their
Speaker 1: story and like, yeah, like what were your goals and
Speaker 1: thoughts and schemes? And I don't how to form questions. Well,
Speaker 1: I just answered like end up finishing them in the
Speaker 1: most bizarre ways.
Speaker 2: That is the perfect question though, because it has been
Speaker 2: such a journey to get from where I started to
Speaker 2: where it is now. I first started writing the book
Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen for Daniel Raimo and I. I went
Speaker 2: on a trip in June and I read the Song
Speaker 2: of Achilles and that was just like life defarning moment
Speaker 2: for not just because the writing's so beautiful, but I
Speaker 2: looked at Madeline's bio and I was like, this could
Speaker 2: be me. I could be doing this. Why aren't I
Speaker 2: doing this? So then I thought I could write a
Speaker 2: Greek myth retelling myself. So I sat down and thought
Speaker 2: about it. And during undergrad and grad school, one of
Speaker 2: the myths that you keep reading over and over and
Speaker 2: over is Edith is the King and Antaty, so like,
Speaker 2: I know those back to front, so I thought, okay,
Speaker 2: I can work with those. So I started the process
Speaker 2: of writing by just rereading those plays. And I also
Speaker 2: re read Statious as the Buy It, which I talked
Speaker 2: about in our last episode here, which I read in
Speaker 2: grad school, and I read the translations and like parts
Speaker 2: in the original Greek and Latin just to like get
Speaker 2: a vibe for it. And this is kind of funny,
Speaker 2: but when I started out, I was going to write
Speaker 2: the book from Antigony's point of view, But I don't
Speaker 2: actually like Antigony very much. Same she's kind of a bitch,
Speaker 2: but you know, she's.
Speaker 1: Just like so overrated, Like I don't like to say
Speaker 1: that about a woman, but I think that Antigony is
Speaker 1: the perfect example of that, like because I think I
Speaker 1: think that Antigony is kind of like she gives me
Speaker 1: like kind of like Athena vibes, Like I feel like
Speaker 1: she is become so big because she fits into the
Speaker 1: patriarchy in a way that makes men comfortable, and so
Speaker 1: she became this like big woman of myth. But like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean comparative comparatively to like everybody else, she's a
Speaker 1: lot less interesting, Like I love working with the other sister,
Speaker 1: the forgotten Sister.
Speaker 2: That's such a good point you just made, because it
Speaker 2: is a woman, the perfect woman, written by a man.
Speaker 2: So that's why we don't like her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's her thing.
Speaker 2: So then I thought, Okay, Antigny has her own play
Speaker 2: it Chieflys and Paul and Icys have their own thing.
Speaker 2: But what about Ismeni. She just kind of gets mentioned
Speaker 2: she doesn't have her own stories, So I thought, what's
Speaker 2: her story? So the first round of writing that I did.
Speaker 2: I was really like focused on trying to make it
Speaker 2: as historically accurate as possible, which now I think what
Speaker 2: a stupid idea that was. But I really wanted to
Speaker 2: capture this Bronze Age grease and have all these like
Speaker 2: archaeological details and like try to make it as true
Speaker 2: to the history as I knew it. But like, we
Speaker 2: know that in Greek history they placed a lot of
Speaker 2: limits on the rights and movements of women. So a
Speaker 2: lot a lot of my feedback was she's the main character,
Speaker 2: but she's not very active, or she's not doesn't really
Speaker 2: have any agencies. So I thought, okay, well this is
Speaker 2: true of Greece at the time. But they were right.
Speaker 2: And one of the ways I tried to get around
Speaker 2: that was by having her be a seer, so she
Speaker 2: could see the events unfolding as they happened through her dreams,
Speaker 2: but not actually be participating in them. And this is
Speaker 2: going to come up again later, so we're going to
Speaker 2: remember is me as a seer.
Speaker 3: And so I wrote that book, tried to make it
Speaker 3: as historically accurate as they could, sent it out to
Speaker 3: people to read.
Speaker 2: They send me their feedback, I fixed it, sent it
Speaker 2: out to agents, got rejected, and then I took a
Speaker 2: writing class workshopped it, and then I got to go
Speaker 2: to this writing festival called the Fold Festival of Literary
Speaker 2: Diversity in brant.
Speaker 1: I know people well, I used to know people who
Speaker 1: started that. I think like I was when I was
Speaker 1: working in book publishing. I remember that starting up. That's
Speaker 1: so exciting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really really great festival, especially for like
Speaker 2: marginalized writers. You can go and talk to people in
Speaker 2: the industry. And I got to speak to a literary
Speaker 2: agent there and she told me the problem with the book,
Speaker 2: which my friends had been too nice to tell me.
Speaker 2: The problem was, she said, it's so.
Speaker 3: In a way that made perfect sense to my neurodiversent brain,
Speaker 3: where she said, you're I get what you're trying to do.
Speaker 3: You're trying to write a Greek myth, but what you
Speaker 3: want to do is write in response to it.
Speaker 2: And I love that. Yeah, you're right, that's what I
Speaker 2: want to do. So from that point I scrapped the
Speaker 2: seventy five thousand words that I already wrote and wrote
Speaker 2: it from the beginning. And this time I was like,
Speaker 2: screw historically accurate, Like if my audience is young adults.
Speaker 2: They're not going to know all this. It's not my
Speaker 2: colleagues from grad school and my professor's writing this. This
Speaker 2: is going to be teenagers and they want to read
Speaker 2: something fun. So when I started out, I thought what
Speaker 2: got me into classics in the first place, and that,
Speaker 2: like a lot of people, was Disney's Hercules. It's just
Speaker 2: such a fun, colorful, magical, funny movie. And that's what
Speaker 2: draws a lot of people to Greek mythology, is just
Speaker 2: like the magic and the monsters and the gods in
Speaker 2: their relationships to humans. So that's what I wanted to
Speaker 2: focus on. And one part of the first draft of
Speaker 2: the book was it started out with all of Edipus's
Speaker 2: children when they're very young and when the plague first
Speaker 2: falls on thieves. So they watch Edipus try to figure
Speaker 2: out who the murderer of Lias is and they play
Speaker 2: a game where they try to figure it out. And
Speaker 2: people really liked that, and the agent even did and
Speaker 2: she said, but it would have been cool if you
Speaker 2: kept that for the whole book, And I thought, Okay,
Speaker 2: that's what I'm gonna do. So in this version, the
Speaker 2: finished version is Mini doesn't know what happened to her parents.
Speaker 2: She thinks they're both dead and she doesn't know everything
Speaker 2: that happened. So she goes on this journey to uncover
Speaker 2: the truth about her family and the curse on her
Speaker 2: line and how that's attributing to the generational violence with
Speaker 2: her brothers. So I really took I really am copy
Speaker 2: pasted of that paper I wrote for grad school, but
Speaker 2: made it a noveful of cursed families in Greece and
Speaker 2: how when she travels throughout Grace she gets hints about
Speaker 2: her own family curse along the way.
Speaker 1: So does that mean you we sorry? Now I'm in
Speaker 1: my favorite cursed family mode? Do you talk about like
Speaker 1: the never even know which one to call it because
Speaker 1: they're so cursed? But you know the theists family.
Speaker 2: Yes, there's so there's scene with Thiistes and I took
Speaker 2: a lot of inspiration from Lord of the Rings.
Speaker 1: Yes, you know the.
Speaker 4: Part in the Two Towers where they go to Rohan
Speaker 4: and I Fadeen is kind of being hidden behind Grema
Speaker 4: worm time. It's kind of like that moment thisdes is
Speaker 4: on his little throne and he's like, why are you here?
Speaker 2: Tyyer Lucius. So it's I took some inspiration, so I'm
Speaker 2: Tolkien for that.
Speaker 1: I'm loving that. I can absolutely see Fayd in Biasdes
Speaker 1: like there's yeah, there's like there's something there.
Speaker 2: I will give you a hint, but I'll try to
Speaker 2: make it as vague as possible. For people who end
Speaker 2: up reading the book before, I had them come to
Speaker 2: mycene after the event. So the certain feast, but I
Speaker 2: decided it would be more emotional if it had that
Speaker 2: they were there at the feast, so it gets a bit.
Speaker 2: My sister read it and went, this is gross. It's awesome,
Speaker 2: so hopefully people like it.
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that. I love that. Yeah, it's I love.
Speaker 1: One of my favorite things about retellings and when people
Speaker 1: do this is and what I'm trying to do with
Speaker 1: my own is like incorporating lots of little mythological references throughout,
Speaker 1: like whether they are long and detailed or they are
Speaker 1: just little bits and pieces, because like there's so much
Speaker 1: and they're so interconnected, and like how fun to have
Speaker 1: things that you know can be obvious, like the feast
Speaker 1: of Thiastes, which Seneca's Thiastes might be my favorite thing
Speaker 1: in the world now, but like you know or or
Speaker 1: like little tiny little easter eggs where somebody's like, hey,
Speaker 1: that name is interesting, or that like vague reference is interesting,
Speaker 1: Like why don't I look it up? And then they
Speaker 1: learned this whole new myth like especially excuse me, especially
Speaker 1: for ya, Like that's so great. It's such a great
Speaker 1: introduction for people to find other other books as well,
Speaker 1: you know, or other mythology, and like I love that,
Speaker 1: So like was I want to make sure I let
Speaker 1: you talk about all of the things you want to
Speaker 1: talk about, But like, were there did you do a
Speaker 1: lot of that? Did you, you know, seek to kind
Speaker 1: of like include a lot of little myths or were
Speaker 1: You're more focused on the larger story?
Speaker 2: So uh, the first version of the book, I had
Speaker 2: a lot of little myths where they tell each other
Speaker 2: stories because there was a subplot of her weaving this
Speaker 2: this tapestry of all the stories her brother told her
Speaker 2: before he turned kind of evil. But in this she
Speaker 2: doesn't really know things. She kind of uncovers them along
Speaker 2: the way and she actually has to meet the people.
Speaker 2: So on her journey, the first place she goes to
Speaker 2: is Argos, so she gets to meet a Drastis who's
Speaker 2: the king of Argus at the time, and that's where
Speaker 2: her brother Paul and I sees is. He doesn't recognize
Speaker 2: her because she's doing a mulan and is stressed as
Speaker 2: a boy at the time. But she she learns about
Speaker 2: Tantalus while she's there, because Tantalus is the famous ancestor
Speaker 2: of Adrassis, and he makes a really big deal out
Speaker 2: of it, and she's like, why, he's a terrible guy.
Speaker 2: You don't want to be associated with him. So she
Speaker 2: she learns along the way about problems between fathers and
Speaker 2: sons and brothers, and oh, how is this supply to
Speaker 2: my own family? I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that because that's the thing about mythology
Speaker 1: or Greek mythology, like it is so cyclical, and also
Speaker 1: like it mirrors so many other different things, like yeah,
Speaker 1: like these these family curses and then the fathers and relationships.
Speaker 1: But I love that you had that reference to Tantalus
Speaker 1: because one of my favorite things about reading about that family,
Speaker 1: which is just my favorite curse in the world, is
Speaker 1: that no matter how horrifying like the next bit is
Speaker 1: in that curse line, they're always like, we are the
Speaker 1: children of Tantalus. Did he try to eat his son. Sure,
Speaker 1: are we still proud to be the children of Tantalus?
Speaker 1: Like hell yeah. And then it's like Egamanna Medelais are
Speaker 1: like we are the sons of Atreus, And it's like
Speaker 1: did Atreus kill his nephews and feed them to his brother? Sure,
Speaker 1: they're the proud sons of Atreus? Like I just love that.
Speaker 1: It's like we will learn no lessons. We will always
Speaker 1: honor our fathers, no matter what they did. Like it
Speaker 1: just yeah, it feels so legit.
Speaker 2: That's so funny. There's a part in Statius is the Biad,
Speaker 2: which is partially based on where Paul and Icy's actually
Speaker 2: has some self awareness and he doesn't want to tell
Speaker 2: people who his father is because he's he's embarrassed. He
Speaker 2: doesn't want to be associated with that stigmas.
Speaker 1: So Oedipus is the one. Yeah, there, it's kinds but
Speaker 1: like you think, like we think about it now, and
Speaker 1: you're like, which one's worse? Like I don't think that
Speaker 1: that that Oedipus's situation is inherently worse, but I love that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like in the ancient world, it was like, no, we
Speaker 1: were not proud to be the children of Oedipus but
Speaker 1: like Atreus Diastes or like Atreus or Tantalus, like that's
Speaker 1: totally fine. Like I love that there was this line
Speaker 1: of like, well, but he married his mom, like you
Speaker 1: sacrificed babies and fed them to his son, like which
Speaker 1: is worse? Really?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a part of it also is like
Speaker 2: Atreus and Thiistes were very aware of what they were
Speaker 2: doing to each other, so that and Edips he didn't
Speaker 2: know about his own parentage, so it's kind of a
Speaker 2: different situation for him. So yeah, it's it's a bit
Speaker 2: interesting that he kind of has more guilt because he
Speaker 2: didn't kind of talk himself out of what he was
Speaker 2: going to do like Atreus, I know.
Speaker 1: And it's it's just interesting because it's like, to us,
Speaker 1: that would make him so much less guilty. He had
Speaker 1: no idea he was marrying his mother. But meanwhile, it's like, no,
Speaker 1: that's the embarrassment, not these guys that did horrible things
Speaker 1: vary on purpose. Oh, it's just that's so it's so interesting. Sorry,
Speaker 1: Like I'm like, this is what happens with these ones,
Speaker 1: is that I just go to the mythology and I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, but you just pointed out something interesting
Speaker 1: about all these randomness that is not necessarily the purpose
Speaker 1: of your novel.
Speaker 2: But no, no, no, I think it's important. Like a
Speaker 2: lot of those myths have in common is with cannibalism.
Speaker 1: In these myths mythology to just be you can just
Speaker 1: so cleanly be like with cannibalism.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's perfectly normal topic. But
Speaker 2: it's it's kind of symbolically this is similar situation to edipis.
Speaker 2: It's like the image of the oraboris a snake eatingot's tail.
Speaker 2: If you eat your children, they're going back to where
Speaker 2: they came from, and you're you're ending your own line.
Speaker 2: So that's what's with your mom.
Speaker 1: I guess the same kind of it's the same thing.
Speaker 2: You're going back to where you came from. Literally, oh God, God,
Speaker 2: thank you.
Speaker 1: That might be one of my all time favorite podcast moments.
Speaker 5: Where you came from.
Speaker 2: That's what Frud says. But whatever you're.
Speaker 1: You're not wrong, You are not wrong. H So okay,
Speaker 1: that's I mean that the literal perfect transition because like
Speaker 1: you're you're writing this ya book about this girl, and
Speaker 1: like you know, I know you probably want to watch
Speaker 1: with too many spoilers, But like you're writing this ya
Speaker 1: book about a girl discovering her family, but the end
Speaker 1: discovery is that like her dad is also her brother
Speaker 1: and her mom is also her grandmother. Like like, how
Speaker 1: did you want to navigate that? Like how much did
Speaker 1: you want to kind of you know, make it for
Speaker 1: a younger audience or like you know what, like what
Speaker 1: was your thought process there? Because it's a lot.
Speaker 2: It is a lot. For a long time, I was
Speaker 2: like should I just gloss over the incest? I do
Speaker 2: mention it, like you have to because it's a very
Speaker 2: famous story. But she's not so much focused on the
Speaker 2: incests as much as her family, like the curse of
Speaker 2: her dad committing patricide and how that kind of stain
Speaker 2: his relationships with his son, and then her brothers are
Speaker 2: going to go on to commit fractress side. So she sees,
Speaker 2: especially through all of these other cursed families, how all
Speaker 2: these conflicts between fathers and sons and brother and brother
Speaker 2: how could lead to violence And she kind of wants
Speaker 2: to take those lessons and change what happens. But yeah,
Speaker 2: it was it was really hard to try to like
Speaker 2: talk about incests in in a ya book, which is
Speaker 2: probably why all these agents are like, oh no, thanks.
Speaker 1: But I do like my least favorite thing about Greek
Speaker 1: mythology retellings is when and when people just feel the
Speaker 1: need to like pretend that that the myth is like
Speaker 1: much more sanitized than it was, you know, like the
Speaker 1: truth the myth is there. But I also think it's
Speaker 1: really also realistic to have as many be more focused
Speaker 1: on the patra side, because like, you know, for all,
Speaker 1: it's horrible. Like I mean, my favorite theory on on
Speaker 1: Oedipus and Dracasta collectively is that is that the tragedy
Speaker 1: isn't so much the like the actual marriage and incest.
Speaker 1: The tragedy is that they didn't know and that like
Speaker 1: in my head, they were really happy family, yeah, and
Speaker 1: then this shit came out. And so I like that
Speaker 1: because I like to think that that a daughter wouldn't
Speaker 1: you know, and it' stop me if this changes then
Speaker 1: you don't want me to say it. But like I
Speaker 1: like the idea that the daughter, if she found that out,
Speaker 1: wouldn't immediately like find her parents disgusting, you know, like
Speaker 1: it's just like that shit happened, and like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't think it has to color, you know, your relationship
Speaker 1: with your parents despite it being kind of wild to
Speaker 1: think about.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I tried to explore that more in the first version,
Speaker 2: but in this I'm like, you know what, there's a
Speaker 2: war going on to tell each other tomorrow. So she's like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I got to focus on the more important part, which
Speaker 2: is breaking the curse. Let's not think about my mom
Speaker 2: and dad or brother or whatever he is. Let's just
Speaker 2: keep going.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's reasonable. Do that's that's practical. If you've
Speaker 1: got your brother's friend right outside your window and it's just.
Speaker 2: A lot of it's just not fair. I think that's
Speaker 2: what she kind of thinks is like her current generations
Speaker 2: being punished for what her father did, her father's being
Speaker 2: punished for what his father did. So there's just these
Speaker 2: cycles of violence and when does it stop. So that's
Speaker 2: what she's trying to achieve, is trying to change that
Speaker 2: course of faith from happening, because we don't want to
Speaker 2: keep reliving all these cycles of violence just because they
Speaker 2: happen before.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and if you know, there's really good examples
Speaker 1: of the family, you know, like Cistes, like it just
Speaker 1: goes on and on and on. Like, I just yesterday
Speaker 1: had the last episode in my series on IPHG and
Speaker 1: I among the Toorians, which is like, you know, some
Speaker 1: of the final blows of that family and their curse
Speaker 1: and like just the absurd things that keep happening, because yeah,
Speaker 1: no one's trying to break it. So I love the
Speaker 1: idea of being like, if I don't stop this, like
Speaker 1: it will just go on forever, and so you know,
Speaker 1: do what I can kind of thing.
Speaker 2: There's a part in the book where she's at the
Speaker 2: feast and Atrius is kind of bustling around and he's
Speaker 2: all excited to have the feast get ready we know why,
Speaker 2: but she doesn't. And she's kind of taking this as like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is great. Look at these brothers reconcile. Maybe I
Speaker 2: can learn from them and help reconcile my own brothers.
Speaker 2: So when she finds out what Atrius had done, she's
Speaker 2: so angry, and she has this conversation with Apollo about
Speaker 2: it because she's like, they had the chance to just
Speaker 2: to end this feud, but it's just going to keep going.
Speaker 2: Is this what it's going to happen to my family?
Speaker 2: So yeah, of course the gods they can't tell you
Speaker 2: what to do you have to figure out yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well they wouldn't anyway. But no, Dick, so great.
Speaker 1: Speaking of the gods, did you I mean with this family,
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's not really necessary, but did you
Speaker 1: include like that aspect of mythology that's more like a
Speaker 1: direct kind of connection with the divine or the you know,
Speaker 1: what did you want to do with the gods?
Speaker 2: Right? So okay, here's where it gets a little interesting.
Speaker 2: So in my first version, I had decided that is
Speaker 2: meaning should be a seer because of plot reasons, and
Speaker 2: I started out with her. She hears Apolo's voice in
Speaker 2: her mind, but she doesn't know it's Apollo. It's just
Speaker 2: this voice telling her what to do, and she's like,
Speaker 2: just leave me alone. So he makes her leave the
Speaker 2: women's quarters, which she's never done before because in this
Speaker 2: version of Thebes, she's told by her nurse and her
Speaker 2: brothers that the plague is still ongoing and it's not
Speaker 2: safe to go outside. So this voice leads her outside
Speaker 2: and she realizes that it is safe and what else
Speaker 2: are they lying to me about? And she soon realizes
Speaker 2: that the voice is Apollo and that he'll give her
Speaker 2: more answers if she goes to Delphi to meet him,
Speaker 2: and it just so happens that the Thebans are going
Speaker 2: to go to Delphi for the Pithean Games, So this
Speaker 2: is where she gets the idea to do a mulan
Speaker 2: enjoining the delegation as a boy to watch her cousins
Speaker 2: her brothers participate. And I didn't explicitly say, but we didn't.
Speaker 2: We know that the Greek athletes were naked, so you
Speaker 2: could be in your head, cannon, they could.
Speaker 1: Be perfect me today where it's just like all adaptations,
Speaker 1: You're like, there's not.
Speaker 2: Enough tats, I see, not enough texts.
Speaker 1: This is not real acient Greece.
Speaker 2: So so while she's there, she meets the oracle at Delphi,
Speaker 2: and a lot of people who study Greek myth no
Speaker 2: oracle Delphi is the most famous oracle in ancient Greece,
Speaker 2: but it's not the only one. Some of the others
Speaker 2: like that we know of are the oracle at Dodona
Speaker 2: for Zoos. But it turns out in my second round
Speaker 2: of writing, I decided to do a deep dive into
Speaker 2: all the history of thieves. Even though I wasn't trying
Speaker 2: to stay as historically accurate, I wanted that image of
Speaker 2: what thieves was like in my head. And I discovered
Speaker 2: that there.
Speaker 3: Was an oracle in theeves to the god Apollo is Menius.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there was an oracle because I know of
Speaker 1: like there's a temple to Apollo's menace because of the
Speaker 1: like stream that ran by me called that.
Speaker 2: But there was a whole oracle dedicated by the stream,
Speaker 2: and I kind of explained it in the book the
Speaker 2: stream is Menius is named for a son of Apollo.
Speaker 2: He had a son with an emph there. There's actually
Speaker 2: a poem about it by Pinder, and Pinder tells us
Speaker 2: a lot about the oracle at Apollo as Medus as well,
Speaker 2: because he was a proud theban. But they this oracle
Speaker 2: was famous for telling the future through pyromancy, so they
Speaker 2: would look into the fire. She just like, what the fuck?
Speaker 3: So I reread Sophocles and there's all these little like
Speaker 3: hints that I had not noticed because I didn't know
Speaker 3: this before. So when Tyresius goes to give his prophecies,
Speaker 3: he doesn't just deliver them. He looks into the fire,
Speaker 3: even though he doesn't have eyes, he looks into the
Speaker 3: fire because that's that association with the city, right, And
Speaker 3: there's a beautiful line from the Robert Fagels translation where
Speaker 3: he says where the embers glow and die and Apollo
Speaker 3: sees the future and the ashes, And I was like, okay.
Speaker 2: This is important. So I kind of wanted as meaning
Speaker 2: as a seer being a precursor to this oracle being
Speaker 2: set up, which isn't really historical. Fine, I'm just I'm
Speaker 2: just throwing it out there for.
Speaker 1: Fine, but that okay, But that is some many things
Speaker 1: happening here in my head. One for all that, I
Speaker 1: think everyone you know who wants to should write mythological retellings.
Speaker 1: I absolutely love talking to classicists who have written the
Speaker 1: mythological retellings because I think that there is a deeper
Speaker 1: level of nerdery afoot. Like talking to you is like
Speaker 1: being in my brain when I've been working on my
Speaker 1: current novel, you know, of just oh my god, I
Speaker 1: found this super cool, ridiculously niche, like absurdly niche historical
Speaker 1: fact and I get to write it in and will
Speaker 1: anybody really know what I've done? Probably not, but I'll know,
Speaker 1: you know, Like I love that, Like there is definitely
Speaker 1: a different level with with like just the depth of
Speaker 1: like ancient source nerdery and nerdery is an official word,
Speaker 1: I will say. But also, like, where was the other thought?
Speaker 1: I think it was mostly that, like I love that,
Speaker 1: Like that's so interesting. Oh, but that's what was the
Speaker 1: other thought is that you like, that's the grain thing
Speaker 1: about novels is that you can take this historical thing
Speaker 1: and you can write it into yours and like make
Speaker 1: it what you want. So you're like, you're blending this
Speaker 1: like really accurate, niche historical detail with your own story
Speaker 1: in this really unique and creative way. You're gonna be
Speaker 1: excited for my own novel. Thank you. I'm already taking notes.
Speaker 2: That's so great, And I was. I was even more
Speaker 2: excited because Sophocles himself back to the up so I
Speaker 2: was like, thank god, stuff please. So during school I
Speaker 2: read edith Is the King in Antigony more times than
Speaker 2: I can count, but I had never read Edipisci Colonnis.
Speaker 2: I read it the first time when I was researching
Speaker 2: this book.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've never read it either, and I've read the
Speaker 1: other two.
Speaker 2: Okay, so is Mini has more of a role in
Speaker 2: that book than she does in any other. So it
Speaker 2: starts with and Antigony are kind of wandering around, you
Speaker 2: know those images that we have of Antigony leading him around,
Speaker 2: and he's got his hand on her shoulder. So they're traveling,
Speaker 2: and she says, oh, somebody's writing toward us. There's a
Speaker 2: there's a writer and they're coming straight this way. Oh
Speaker 2: my god, it's his MENI it's my sister. So then
Speaker 2: you find out that it's mine. She secretly leaves the
Speaker 2: palace to bring news to Edipist and Antignity, and the
Speaker 2: news she brings is oracles specifically about him. So I'm like, okay,
Speaker 2: sophocally set this up for me. What if she was
Speaker 2: making the oracles herself? So that's that's where I would
Speaker 2: and I just took off from there.
Speaker 1: That is the most satisfying thing to find though. Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh I have such similar things, like not direct examples
Speaker 1: coming to mind, but I know that feeling so well
Speaker 1: of like having this idea, being really excited about it,
Speaker 1: and then finding a source where you're like holy shit,
Speaker 1: like I works. Yeah, Like I can back it up.
Speaker 1: I don't even have to totally fake it, Like I
Speaker 1: can back it up. Oh that's so fun. Also so
Speaker 1: cool that like, I mean, obviously the plays always feature,
Speaker 1: you know, more women than like a lot of other
Speaker 1: kind of content, but like, I love that something about
Speaker 1: her riding a horse and being by herself really stands
Speaker 1: out to me, being like, I'm going to do this
Speaker 1: on my own. I'm a woman, I am like doing this.
Speaker 1: Tell my family, like, that's badass.
Speaker 2: And sophocally says a very unsophoclean thing to me where
Speaker 2: Edith says to his two daughters that they're more like
Speaker 2: they have more agency than their brothers because they go
Speaker 2: out and they do things, whereas their brothers sit at
Speaker 2: home and wait for things to happen. And I thought,
Speaker 2: this is amazing, This is this is proof that that
Speaker 2: she can leave the palace and go on this adventure.
Speaker 2: So I was like, thank you, Sophiglease.
Speaker 1: Yes, I do think that's the thing that though. The
Speaker 1: difference I would say between anybody just a general nerd
Speaker 1: writing versus people who are as steeped in the ancient
Speaker 1: sources is that I also think people like us feel
Speaker 1: like we need.
Speaker 2: That yeah, where you need a validation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like you can fictionalize anything, you can write anything
Speaker 1: you want to your novel. But I totally also know
Speaker 1: that feeling and be like, no, I can do this
Speaker 1: because Sophocles said I could, where you're like you could
Speaker 1: have done it anyway, but no, no, I needed him.
Speaker 2: I am. In twenty eighteen, I went to a book
Speaker 2: signing and got to talk to Madeline Miller. She signed
Speaker 2: my book and I said, look, I'm writing this book,
Speaker 2: and like you, I did my my master's in classics,
Speaker 2: and how do you get past thinking about your professor's
Speaker 2: reading the book? She goes, I had the same problem.
Speaker 2: Just don't make it as good as you can and
Speaker 2: don't tell him about it until it's already out. And
Speaker 2: I said, okay, that's a good plan. So I have
Speaker 2: all these ghosts over my shoulder like all my professors
Speaker 2: and Sophocles and Euripides are like, you can't do that,
Speaker 2: but I'm like, screw it, I'm gonna write what I want.
Speaker 1: Your would never tell you.
Speaker 2: You know what, You're right. Europdes is a better it's
Speaker 2: a better man.
Speaker 1: He knows that you can do whatever you want, you
Speaker 1: can make it wild, and he loves you for it.
Speaker 2: You know what he was. He was part of my
Speaker 2: my AHA moment where I was like, it doesn't have
Speaker 2: to be super historical. It doesn't have to be true
Speaker 2: to the sources because there is no original source. Like,
Speaker 2: myths are always evolving, they're always changing. That's what is
Speaker 2: so wonderful about them, because they're always changing the story
Speaker 2: because of who's telling them. So I was like, your
Speaker 2: Ripides is also blessing me to do what I want.
Speaker 2: So here we go.
Speaker 1: I mean, he made Helen and idolown and and he
Speaker 1: made if Aganayah like a priestess of Artemis killing people
Speaker 1: in Taurus. Like you know, he he knows it. He's like,
Speaker 1: I did whatever the fuck I want. Why can't you like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the thing I think. I think people forget or
Speaker 1: or just it's not brought to attention. I think enough
Speaker 1: if you're not in really and deep in this realm,
Speaker 1: like if you're just picking up any of these books,
Speaker 1: Like it's so easy to think about a quote unquote
Speaker 1: original myth or or to even think that, like you
Speaker 1: know that say, oedipis the King is you know, the
Speaker 1: sort of formative like the version of Oedipus because it's
Speaker 1: the one that everyone thinks about. But like I mean,
Speaker 1: not only is it just a play, but it's like
Speaker 1: it is. I mean in like in being a play,
Speaker 1: it is fan fiction, Like it is Sophocles working with
Speaker 1: whatever he had and writing the story that he wanted
Speaker 1: to write, just like anyone else. And that is so
Speaker 1: interesting and like that's why I love plays because they
Speaker 1: are from the ancient world, but at the same time
Speaker 1: they are reception, just like your novel is reception, and
Speaker 1: so you get to look at them in that way
Speaker 1: and it's yeah, like it's so much more interesting to
Speaker 1: see them that way. And then and then like I
Speaker 1: think it's much more inspirational too, to like people writing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's it's more worthwhile to not
Speaker 2: try to just say the same thing like I was before,
Speaker 2: as soft Clays and Setiha said, but to take what
Speaker 2: they wrote and try to make it relevant to me.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's what I did.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. Like did you so did you
Speaker 1: play a lot with her relationship with Antigony or were
Speaker 1: you just kind of like Antigony has been done?
Speaker 2: Okay, so this is it annoys me, But in my head,
Speaker 2: as Mini is basically me, like she's just this shy
Speaker 2: girl and she kind of gets out of her comfort
Speaker 2: zone and tries to make things right, Antigny, I'm writing
Speaker 2: I and I just write things that I didn't think about.
Speaker 2: It's like she's talking through me, and I'm like, oh
Speaker 2: my god. Like she really surprises me the way that
Speaker 2: she interacts because my Antigny is very aware that this
Speaker 2: should be her story, so she's kind of resemful that
Speaker 2: Izmeni is the main character. They even have a discussion
Speaker 2: at the end where she says, you know, I would
Speaker 2: have thought you would be the one that was left behind,
Speaker 2: not me, So I just I just had like, first
Speaker 2: she goes through the you know, the five stages, like
Speaker 2: she denies that she's not the main character, and then
Speaker 2: she comes to accept it and she helps his meeting
Speaker 2: on her journey.
Speaker 1: Basically, that feels so Antigny, like so completely. I mean
Speaker 1: it's Sophocle, it's as fault, but it does feel yeah,
Speaker 1: very very Antigony. I love that. Did you read the
Speaker 1: Phoenician Women for this?
Speaker 2: I did?
Speaker 6: I did, and I read, oh, what's the other one
Speaker 6: called thecalist one seven against Theves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I read those two as well, but I hadn't
Speaker 2: read them as many times as softly. So that's the
Speaker 2: one that really stuck out of my head. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: even just those three contemporary sort of like Sophocles, Europides,
Speaker 2: and Esclists, they write so many different versions of the
Speaker 2: same stories. So I was like, it doesn't matter what
Speaker 2: I do because they've already set up this precedent of
Speaker 2: changing this, so I'm going to keep going with that.
Speaker 1: Well, it reminds me. So I've had a conversation that
Speaker 1: has not aired yet but will have aired by the
Speaker 1: time this one airs. Oh it's inceptioning, but with this
Speaker 1: part did not appear in it for a future conversation anyway. Basically,
Speaker 1: I have this plan for future episode series, probably not
Speaker 1: until next summer, so it's ages away. But I'm going
Speaker 1: to just something new and different for me. I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna do Euripides, but I want to look at like
Speaker 1: him Mora as a person and like how it all happened.
Speaker 1: And and I was speaking to to TOF Marshall, who's
Speaker 1: going to be on to talk about just theater broadly,
Speaker 1: but he made some comments with Euripties that made me go, Okay,
Speaker 1: you're coming back on the show like later when we're
Speaker 1: doing this, because I'm gonna forget the details. But there's
Speaker 1: this whole you know, kind of tradition around around these
Speaker 1: these stories and and like what we accept as sort
Speaker 1: of you know, facts and truth and original myth, like
Speaker 1: we were saying, and you know, and it is Sophocleses, right,
Speaker 1: Like Sophocleses Oedipis the King is like sort of the
Speaker 1: definitive Oedipist. I mean, it's mostly because it's the one
Speaker 1: that survives, but like why is it the one that survives?
Speaker 1: And so, you know, because edip or not episs Euripides
Speaker 1: also wrote an Oedipis and I forget what the detail was,
Speaker 1: but Toff told me that like basically there was like
Speaker 1: he'd written in this like very big difference to Sophocleses,
Speaker 1: Like I don't know if it was like Odopluis didn't
Speaker 1: bind himself or some big change that you know, just
Speaker 1: kind of his version and this change like all just
Speaker 1: kind of got forgotten completely. And I just think that's
Speaker 1: it's so interesting to think about, like how these versions
Speaker 1: become canon, because like no one in the ancient world
Speaker 1: was like sophocles Is more correct than Euripity is, Like
Speaker 1: they were probably like we like this play better, but
Speaker 1: they weren't out there being like this is the wrong
Speaker 1: myth because they understood how myth worked in a way
Speaker 1: that it's harder for us now. But I just, yeah,
Speaker 1: I love that idea. Like I'm not even forming this
Speaker 1: into a relation to your book, I realized, but like,
Speaker 1: I just I think it's so interesting. But I also
Speaker 1: think it does lend itself to fiction broadly, right, Like
Speaker 1: like like you were saying, there is no right or
Speaker 1: wrong myth. There is no original myth. There is no
Speaker 1: like I mean, there are some things where you're like
Speaker 1: that has no basis in sure, yeah, but there is
Speaker 1: no like you know, wrong version in terms of like
Speaker 1: the things that do survive. It's just so fun. I'm
Speaker 1: just now I'm just like so full of like ancient
Speaker 1: source thoughts in my brain.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm not sure how it was in Greece, but
Speaker 2: in ancient Rome, part of a Roman boy's education was
Speaker 2: in oratory and in law would be doing these practice
Speaker 2: speeches where you would take a mythological subject and you
Speaker 2: would try to argue it from one character's point of
Speaker 2: view or the other. So you could try to be
Speaker 2: defend Helen's actions, or you could defend Paris' actions, and
Speaker 2: the points that you got or the way you kind
Speaker 2: of revolutionize the myth and not sticking to like a
Speaker 2: current story. So even the ancients were taught like myths
Speaker 2: are fluid, you can change them to get what you
Speaker 2: want out of them.
Speaker 1: Basically, Oh, I love that. That's really interesting and make
Speaker 1: you think of it, you know, like yeah, like he
Speaker 1: went and he took all these predominantly Greek stories and
Speaker 1: he was like I'm going to kind of mess with things,
Speaker 1: and like we're still paying the price in a lot
Speaker 1: of ways, Like I think you're of Medusa. It's this
Speaker 1: really common idea that that Avid's version is like the
Speaker 1: Medusa now, and it BOMs me out, Like I really
Speaker 1: like to stick to the I mean, I love Avid,
Speaker 1: but like something about Medusa, I'm like, I want the Greek.
Speaker 1: I mean a big part of it is that, like
Speaker 1: Avid introduced this Athena villain story that I think is
Speaker 1: so unnecessary and like that's stuck in this way where
Speaker 1: people are like either you know, Athena is the villain
Speaker 1: or they're like, oh, maybe Athena blessed her and saved her.
Speaker 1: And I'm like I don't like that either, Like it's
Speaker 1: all gross to me in a in a modern context.
Speaker 1: I love Avid for what he did, but I hate
Speaker 1: that the people have like latched onto this. It's like
Speaker 1: this is Medusa's story because I'm like it is objectively
Speaker 1: not like if we're really talking about ancient sources, the
Speaker 1: Romans were out here making wild changes, and that's such
Speaker 1: a great example that that young Roman boys were taught that,
Speaker 1: like fuck with the myth and you can like win
Speaker 1: this at this contest, Like that's so interesting and it
Speaker 1: so screams Avid, which is a great source, but like
Speaker 1: not if we're talking about Greek myths, then it's not.
Speaker 2: It's funny you see that because I only I basically
Speaker 2: figure that out because I was doing my graduate research
Speaker 2: on Avid, So I like had to write this really
Speaker 2: big research paper. It wasn't a thesis. We didn't do
Speaker 2: a thesis base m. It was corese bace and in
Speaker 2: between the two years you did a major research paper.
Speaker 2: So mine was on Ovid and particularly on book thirteen
Speaker 2: of the Metamorphosease. But I wanted to talk about like
Speaker 2: his early life and his education. So Auvid's father, I think,
Speaker 2: was a lawyer, and he wanted Avid to be a
Speaker 2: lawyer as well. So he did have that training in
Speaker 2: those in that schooling, so he was used to and
Speaker 2: trained to twist those myths. So that's something that people
Speaker 2: should keep in mind. He's not telling us this concrete myth.
Speaker 2: He's he's telling us what he wants.
Speaker 1: To Yeah, and it's I love him because I think
Speaker 1: that that's absolutely valid. But what I hate is when
Speaker 1: people are like, but that's the version. I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: that it's office version. Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with
Speaker 1: abus version, but it's not like it's not the Greek
Speaker 1: version objectively speaking for a lot of reasons. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that's so interesting to know that. I love that fact.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh, without me having a specific question like what are
Speaker 1: some fun things that that you like learned about or
Speaker 1: that you wanted to write into this book, or like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I just want to hear more, but
Speaker 1: my brain is not coming up with a specific question
Speaker 1: to ask you.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: So I really got off on a tangent about the
Speaker 2: oracle of this meaning me and Paul. Yeah exactly. But
Speaker 2: I became a bit obsessed with that. I get I
Speaker 2: lose focus a lot, so by becoming hyper focused on
Speaker 2: other things. So I did some research and I found
Speaker 2: out there's a school in the States that is currently
Speaker 2: doing an excavation on the uh the temple. So I
Speaker 2: found out who was doing it, and I emailed them.
Speaker 2: I was like, I like to ask you some questions,
Speaker 2: can we like hop on zoom? So I had a
Speaker 2: little zoom meeting with them, and then because their research
Speaker 2: isn't published yet, they weren't actually allowed to talk about
Speaker 2: their research, but they gave me some really good uh
Speaker 2: primary sources to look to. So Pausanius has like his
Speaker 2: you know, his travel guide to agent Greece, and he
Speaker 2: talks about thieves and the temple. So that was really helpful,
Speaker 2: as the temple does make it an appearance at the
Speaker 2: end of the book. But they told me about a
Speaker 2: book that I'll have to type it out and send
Speaker 2: it to you because I cannot spell it for the
Speaker 2: life of me without looking at a reference. But there
Speaker 2: is a classicist name Sarantis simeon Ougloo who wrote a
Speaker 2: topography of Thebs. It's this massive book that covers Thebes
Speaker 2: from the Bronze Age up until like modern thieves, like
Speaker 2: in the eighties or the nineties, so you see how
Speaker 2: the city grows over time. And you learn about the
Speaker 2: history and the geography and the politics, and it's just
Speaker 2: such a great resource to have, especially if you're looking
Speaker 2: at thieves in particular. So I was obsessed with that book.
Speaker 2: I took it out of the Special Collections library at
Speaker 2: the university and I had it in my room for
Speaker 2: like three months because I didn't want to let it go.
Speaker 2: It was so helpful.
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that. I love finding stuff like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, and just Pausanius is fun and helpful for
Speaker 1: like those little things of like just just describing a
Speaker 1: thing like sure, he's late whatever, but he's like the
Speaker 1: eyes on the ground in a way that we don't
Speaker 1: have otherwise. Like thank fuck for Pausanias.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and even though he's he's seeing these things so
Speaker 2: much later than we want to write about them. It
Speaker 2: is nice to have like a first hand account of
Speaker 2: what it would look like in situ kind of thing.
Speaker 2: It's better than nothing, it's better than exactly. It gives
Speaker 2: you an idea. Another thing that was helpful for me.
Speaker 2: I know not everybody's in the position to do it,
Speaker 2: but my husband got funding to go to Greece and
Speaker 2: I went with them, and he was great. He was
Speaker 2: studying these stone tablets at Delphi. So he was in
Speaker 2: like the archives looking at them, and I was just
Speaker 2: wandering around, and I took a lot of inspiration just
Speaker 2: from being at Delphi for the book, and especially there's
Speaker 2: certain artifacts that I saw there that are in the
Speaker 2: book and that are important. So when Asmini looks into
Speaker 2: like the fire and has her little her visions, she
Speaker 2: sees these images speaking to her, images that she saw
Speaker 2: on the Sacred Way. So we've got, you know, the
Speaker 2: famous Naxi and Sphinx. I wrote this scene where the
Speaker 2: Sphinx kind of shakes off the marble and becomes the
Speaker 2: actual Sphinx of flies down to talk to her. And
Speaker 2: there's also the statues of Clavius and Meetan, you know
Speaker 2: those the two the two they're kind of like two
Speaker 2: Kourois standing together.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, they're like really archaic, except right, yeah.
Speaker 2: So they were a dedication to the Sacred Way, but
Speaker 2: for the purposes of my book, they're actually Atreus and Thyestes.
Speaker 2: And then there's this monumental cauldron and when I saw
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's where Tantala's stewed peelops. Because it's enormous.
Speaker 2: So I have that cauldron kind of hops over because
Speaker 2: it has lion's feet and tries to like swallow her holes.
Speaker 2: So I kind of took inspiration from things that I
Speaker 2: saw while I was there, So you can find a
Speaker 2: lot of inspiration.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I also love like what you're describing that
Speaker 1: like one of the things I think that it also
Speaker 1: I feel like should be in more retellings. Is more
Speaker 1: of that fantasy like big mythology. When you're writing it
Speaker 1: that way, like is fantasy, and I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people want to make it real and really down
Speaker 1: to earth, and I respect that entirely. I personally want
Speaker 1: the fantasy, like I want the gods interacting with shit.
Speaker 1: I want like wild stuff happening. Like I also just
Speaker 1: love the idea that you that you had Atreas cook
Speaker 1: a couple of children at Delphi, Like that's another level
Speaker 1: to the crime that you're adding that I respect it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he did some stuff and some stuff I really
Speaker 2: wanted because I was thinking about when I was a
Speaker 2: kid and I was into Greek mythology because of Hercules.
Speaker 2: I was it was the magic that I was into,
Speaker 2: So I'm trying to make this as magical as I can.
Speaker 2: And there's one part where I thought I went too far,
Speaker 2: and I'll tell you about it. So she's been traveling
Speaker 2: across Greece for for weeks. She's she's dirty, instagrum, like
Speaker 2: she's got dirty clothes on. She's in she's cut her
Speaker 2: hair off to be a boy and herd Apollo or
Speaker 2: getting ready to return to thieves so she can have
Speaker 2: a per big, her big moment in the in the
Speaker 2: palace with the rest of the Thebians and apologist her.
Speaker 2: You can't go back to thieves looking like that, and
Speaker 2: he kind of makes her look like a princess again.
Speaker 2: And and as I was writing it, I thought, you
Speaker 2: can't do this all. Isn't a fairy godmother? Like this
Speaker 2: is stupid?
Speaker 1: Why not?
Speaker 2: And then I remembered live, I actually have a precedent
Speaker 2: for this in Homer when in the Odyssey, when Naosafa
Speaker 2: finds Odysseus when she's playing with her friends, Athena makes
Speaker 2: him look more beautiful to her.
Speaker 3: So it's like, Okay, I have a precedent for this,
Speaker 3: So Apollo, it's just as much as the fairy god
Speaker 3: mother as Athena was too Odysseus.
Speaker 2: So there I was taking my inspiration from the ancients again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, you had a precedent. You've found the
Speaker 1: president in Athena. I love that because also, like just
Speaker 1: you even saying that, I got so many other memories
Speaker 1: of the Odyssey because like there's so many moments where
Speaker 1: Athena comes in and she's like, I'm gonna make you
Speaker 1: look a totally different way, because because it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: for Nausicaa, it's you know, she wants him to be beautiful.
Speaker 1: When he goes home to Ithaca, he's got.
Speaker 2: A beggar man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, There's so many different things like that, and I'm
Speaker 1: just wondering, like I imagine the Iliad must have some
Speaker 1: of those as well. But yeah, I love that, Like,
Speaker 1: I mean, the gods really can do whatever you want
Speaker 1: them to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and for the gods, like humans are their play
Speaker 2: things kind of, so.
Speaker 1: That's how all Greek myth retellings should see it.
Speaker 2: So basically in that moment, she's a Barbie doll for
Speaker 2: a follow.
Speaker 1: I love this because I like, I've been working on
Speaker 1: a totally new novel this year, and Apollo is my
Speaker 1: absolute villain, Like he is the worst of them. He
Speaker 1: is absolutely the worst, but I do like seeing Like
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the other thing about Greek myth is that,
Speaker 1: like the gods contain multitudes, like they are so often
Speaker 1: the fucking worst to some people and then really lovely
Speaker 1: to another. So there's just you know, it all checks out.
Speaker 1: Like whatever you or anybody else wants to write with
Speaker 1: these gods, like you can probably make it work. Like
Speaker 1: they're really you know, they are just so many things
Speaker 1: at once and that's why they're fun.
Speaker 2: There's a scene like it happened. I didn't plan in
Speaker 2: Tigany to say this, She just said this of her
Speaker 2: own volition. Whereas Mini reveals to her she's been hearing
Speaker 2: this voice in her head and it's Apollo and that
Speaker 2: he wants her to go to Delphi and A'smini sorgnizes me,
Speaker 2: and Tigany says to her, think, when has a god
Speaker 2: being interested in a human ever ended up a good
Speaker 2: thing for the human? You have to be careful and
Speaker 2: as Miena never thought that before. So I was like, okay,
Speaker 2: an Tikeany, thank you for putting that out there for her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's so valid and like, I mean that
Speaker 1: that is the thing I love about Greek mythis or
Speaker 1: and that's what I want in my retellings. It's what
Speaker 1: I've written into mine, is that, like, yeah, the gods
Speaker 1: are fucking dangerous. Like that is Greek mythology in a nutshell.
Speaker 1: The gods are dangerous. Their interactions with mortals rarely go well, certainly,
Speaker 1: as we all know, like going to the oracle in
Speaker 1: mythology rarely a good idea. Some bad shit always happens.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, like I love that, I mean, and
Speaker 1: at the same time, like Apollo can be good to
Speaker 1: the people he wants to be good to. I cannot
Speaker 1: think of any examples off the top of my head.
Speaker 1: But didn't he like like set his mother on fire?
Speaker 2: For that's true, like she was having a fair that's
Speaker 2: what that's what the raven said. But yeah, sure, but
Speaker 2: you know the gods, they do what they want for
Speaker 2: their own reasons. So it's Mini's like she realizes she
Speaker 2: has Apollo's favor, but she's very wary of like, okay,
Speaker 2: but when will I lose it? So I gotta be
Speaker 2: careful when I have these interactions with him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you play with any of the other gods
Speaker 1: or is Apollo kind of your main one?
Speaker 2: Apollo is my main one. Athena makes a very brief appearance,
Speaker 2: but Apollo's basically the main one. Artemis comes into it.
Speaker 2: And the Fates. I had fun writing the Fates. They
Speaker 2: were great.
Speaker 1: Did you did you conflate them with the Gray Eye
Speaker 1: like in Herculan?
Speaker 2: No? I didn't. I had at first. I wanted to
Speaker 2: because it would have made more sense plot wise, and
Speaker 2: I was like, no, keep it, keep them separate.
Speaker 1: I do. I mean, that's I think one of my
Speaker 1: favorite like major changes to myth and characters is just
Speaker 1: that the Gray Eye and the mare I get to
Speaker 1: be the same three Crones and Hercules because it's just
Speaker 1: so much better that they share an eye.
Speaker 2: And even in that way, they kind of get conflated
Speaker 2: with the norn from Norse mythology, the three Yeah, because
Speaker 2: there's so they kind of conflate them with other myths
Speaker 2: as well, and I was like, don't try not to
Speaker 2: do that. You've got enough miss to work with for this.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh that's so fun. Okay, now that I've said
Speaker 1: Disney's Hercules, were you directly inspired by anything from Disney's
Speaker 1: Hercules or I don't even know. I'm just curious about
Speaker 1: the Hercules of it all because I also love that
Speaker 1: movie a lot.
Speaker 2: I I was inspired by Hercules because I wanted to
Speaker 2: approach the story with like sort of Disney magic, if
Speaker 2: that makes sense. So I mentioned Mulan a couple of times,
Speaker 2: so like, there's parts of the book that I kind
Speaker 2: of thought of in regards to Disney movies, if that
Speaker 2: makes sense. So when she is drawn out of the
Speaker 2: women's quarters by Apollo and she heads into the city,
Speaker 2: I was thinking of, you know, Princess Jasmine. When she
Speaker 2: puts on the disguise as she goes out, and when
Speaker 2: she disguises herself as a boy, I was thinking of Mulan.
Speaker 2: So I was just trying to really keep that sense
Speaker 2: of like wonder and storytelling that you get in the
Speaker 2: classic Disney movies.
Speaker 1: I love that, and I love that I can hear
Speaker 1: your cat.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's greeting my husband who just came in to her.
Speaker 2: That's Cosmo's podcast debut.
Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah, I mean like, but I love
Speaker 1: like mythology is magic, you know, And I mean I
Speaker 1: think those those inspirations work really well too. But really,
Speaker 1: like mythology is magic, it is fantasy, and that's that's definitely.
Speaker 1: My favorite thing to have in these retellings is something
Speaker 1: that like really embraces that because, like it, these weren't
Speaker 1: real people, and that's the fun. That's the fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it gives you a lot of freedom to to
Speaker 2: put on characteristics of people you know or characters you're
Speaker 2: familiar with, to these characters in myth and you can
Speaker 2: flash them out some more.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, how much traveling in Greece did you do? Like,
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like if I was writing something
Speaker 1: where people get to travel, it would just be a
Speaker 1: shit show because I'd be like, I want them to
Speaker 1: go literally everywhere, and I have to think, like logistically,
Speaker 1: how possible that is. So I'm just curious, like kind
Speaker 1: of if you had to hold yourself back or like
Speaker 1: what you wanted to do with that.
Speaker 2: Well, we were only there for a couple of days
Speaker 2: and we were there.
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean your character, but I also want to
Speaker 1: hear about real life actually now that you're okay.
Speaker 2: So she basicly reenact things that I did on my trips.
Speaker 2: So this was just me reliving that trip. But so
Speaker 2: we were basically located in Athens for the majority of it,
Speaker 2: and we did some day trips, so we went to
Speaker 2: Corinth and my cd uh. We went to Delphi and
Speaker 2: Naphlio and thieves. Oh god, that was the best day
Speaker 2: of my life.
Speaker 1: I haven't been to Thebes. I've been doing all of
Speaker 1: the old I haven't really been to Corinth. I guess
Speaker 1: I've been through Corinth. But like I'm jealous of about thieves.
Speaker 1: I once accidentally drove through Thebes. We didn't know we
Speaker 1: were there until we got to the sign that said
Speaker 1: you were leaving theva and I was like, son of
Speaker 1: a bitch, we would be just like we I when
Speaker 1: I went there with like my friends in Ancient History fangirl.
Speaker 1: We drove to Delphian back and we took this like
Speaker 1: funny route back whatever Google Maps gave us, and it
Speaker 1: took us like through this like very rural ring round
Speaker 1: about area and we're like, oh, we didn't have and
Speaker 1: then I was like, I'm curious where we are. And
Speaker 1: then literally we go to the you know, they do
Speaker 1: the like like a cross through the word to say
Speaker 1: you're leaving that town. And I didn't realize we're in
Speaker 1: thieves until it was just like, yeah, of a bitch,
Speaker 1: I was just here and we didn't have time to
Speaker 1: go back and so, yeah, oh my god, So how
Speaker 1: was Thebes? What did you see? Did you see the
Speaker 1: cad me on? I know that there's very little left.
Speaker 1: I'm so curious about everything I did.
Speaker 2: So getting to these we went on the train and
Speaker 2: we thought like we got to the station, it was
Speaker 2: it was tough. We got it's completely empty, there's nothing
Speaker 2: there but this like skeletal dog, and we're like, oh god,
Speaker 2: what have we got ourselves into? And then we just
Speaker 2: started to walk and it's just everything looks so beautiful there.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's just because I'm biased because I was so
Speaker 2: obsessed with thieves for so long at that point, but
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this is amazing. And that scholar
Speaker 2: I had talked to who was excavating in themes, she said, oh,
Speaker 2: you really have to go to the new Archaeological Museum.
Speaker 2: It's amazing. And that's partially built on part of the
Speaker 2: old cadney, so you can see part of it in
Speaker 2: underneath and outside. So I was just losing my mind.
Speaker 2: We stayed there for hours just looking at everything, and
Speaker 2: it was just so amazing to see all these like
Speaker 2: theban artifacts in Thebes, and it was.
Speaker 1: Just the greatest Yeah, you have to.
Speaker 2: It's amazing.
Speaker 1: I'm going to figure it out. I've got to. It's uh.
Speaker 1: They're problems to travel alone. And like I like traveling,
Speaker 1: but there's some parts of Greek travel that I don't
Speaker 1: love doing alone, Like I did the bus to Naplio,
Speaker 1: Like the buses are fine. I'm probably the bus probably anyway. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm so jealous. That's so fun.
Speaker 2: I wish I took a car because the scholar stupidish.
Speaker 2: I don't either, but thank you this scholar, Stephanie Larson.
Speaker 2: She said, I really should go see the tombs of Oedipus.
Speaker 2: They're carved into the rock face itself because the rock
Speaker 2: is very like malleable, and I was like, that's hardcore.
Speaker 2: I have to put that in the book. I didn't
Speaker 2: get to go to them, but just because she had
Speaker 2: talked about them, I had included it in the book.
Speaker 2: But there's just so much to see there, so you
Speaker 2: have to go sometime.
Speaker 1: I am having ideas that are going to result in
Speaker 1: me texting my lovely assistant producer Mikaela after this. That's
Speaker 1: so fucking fun. I am so jealousy. I'd love that too,
Speaker 1: because like the thing about basing your story in that
Speaker 1: part of the mainland is that there are there's so
Speaker 1: much close enough, you know, like you really like you
Speaker 1: can access all of these these places and have people
Speaker 1: traveling in this way that is like realistic, but also
Speaker 1: you get to do you know, Thebes and Delphy and
Speaker 1: kind of like whatever else in that sort of realm.
Speaker 1: I oh, Graace, Now I'm just h is there, you know,
Speaker 1: before we kind of like transition away from the plot itself,
Speaker 1: is there? You know? I don't know anything, like one
Speaker 1: favorite moment that you want to share, or just like
Speaker 1: I don't even just basically, do you want to share
Speaker 1: anything more about the plot or your characters, or just
Speaker 1: I don't know anything.
Speaker 2: So I will share something very quickly. It's unexpected, unexpected
Speaker 2: fan favorite. So I had more than one person talk
Speaker 2: to me about a certain character, and I thought, what
Speaker 2: because they were kind of just there for a reason.
Speaker 2: It's so hard to explain it, but so is Meeni
Speaker 2: and Antigony are kept in the women's quarters. They're told
Speaker 2: that they're kept there for their own good because the
Speaker 2: plague is ravaging the city and this is the safest
Speaker 2: place for them, and they're kind of kept under lock
Speaker 2: and key by their nurse Para and Parah had a
Speaker 2: long history in my head or she She was not
Speaker 2: very good character in the first round of the book,
Speaker 2: but in the second round she became a much more
Speaker 2: motherly character, and I had beta readers and my sisters
Speaker 2: were saying, what's her story? She needs to do more.
Speaker 2: So she kind of became more of a central character
Speaker 2: through that second version of the story, just because so
Speaker 2: many people wanted to learn more about her, and even
Speaker 2: I was thinking about it, and it gave me an
Speaker 2: idea for a short story sometime where a lot of
Speaker 2: you know, Greek slaves were taken in war and they
Speaker 2: were like, they weren't necessarily slaves before, Like Purr could
Speaker 2: have been a noble woman or a princess herself. So
Speaker 2: the relationship she has with the two girls is not
Speaker 2: so much as a jailer as like a mother with
Speaker 2: her children. And it's just interesting to like try to
Speaker 2: revisit her relationship with Para, who was her only mother figure.
Speaker 2: So I have my beta readers to thank for that.
Speaker 2: So if we have readers out there who want to
Speaker 2: be writers, and you don't always want to take your
Speaker 2: data reader's feedback into account, you should because there's a
Speaker 2: reason they're talking to you, so try to make a work.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 1: I also think too, it's a great like I think
Speaker 1: the great kind of detail you out of there is
Speaker 1: how is multiple people telling you that you know, like
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, I mean, if multiple people have told
Speaker 1: you a thing like probably, it's a good idea to
Speaker 1: revisit for sure. I have just had two people who
Speaker 1: read my book be like, I think you should change this,
Speaker 1: but and I'm like, fine, I guess I will, like
Speaker 1: you know, because yeah, I think I think you know,
Speaker 1: and within reason too, like yeah, you know, and I
Speaker 1: think probably It was the same for you based on
Speaker 1: what you've just said, but like for me, it was
Speaker 1: very like, well, I can see where you're coming from.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't want to admit it, but they're.
Speaker 1: Right, exactly exactly right. Like whereas if if you had
Speaker 1: felt particularly strongly about a thing you like, no, no,
Speaker 1: like that just doesn't work, you know, it's it's an
Speaker 1: interesting thing, And doesn't that just lead perfectly into what
Speaker 1: I think is so cool about what you've done and
Speaker 1: what a lot of people do. Is it like you
Speaker 1: just publish it yourself because it's just working in the
Speaker 1: traditional way, and I think that's great, and I think
Speaker 1: we're in this world where that is so much more
Speaker 1: possible than it used to be. Yeah, I would love
Speaker 1: to hear a little bit about your process and like
Speaker 1: what you know when you kind of were like, I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna fucking do it.
Speaker 2: That happened this year, I had. So I originally wrote
Speaker 2: the first draft twenty seventeen, and by twenty nineteen I
Speaker 2: made that decision to rewrite it completely, and I was
Speaker 2: finished the rewrites by twenty twenty one. So I had
Speaker 2: been querying it to agents from twenty twenty one and
Speaker 2: to early twenty twenty three. So when we last talked
Speaker 2: last March, I was still in the depths of querying.
Speaker 2: I had good responses, but people just didn't know how
Speaker 2: to sell it. And I thought, how can you not
Speaker 2: sell it when Greek myth retellings are so popular right now?
Speaker 2: And I don't want to sound big headed, but I
Speaker 2: know it's a good book, so I thought, oh should
Speaker 2: I there's a lot of stigma with self publishing, but
Speaker 2: it is really valid and there's a lot of work
Speaker 2: that goes into it. And I was really fortunate that
Speaker 2: one of my co workers self publishes romance books, and
Speaker 2: she said, oh, just go for it. This is the
Speaker 2: name of my editor. Why don't you reach out to
Speaker 2: her and if she's interested, she'll work with you. And
Speaker 2: the editor was interested. She actually told me, okay. So
Speaker 2: the editor used to be obsessed with Percy Jackson in
Speaker 2: Greek mythology in high school, and she said it made
Speaker 2: her want to revisit all of her high school face.
Speaker 2: It was like, this is great, this is what I want.
Speaker 2: I want that high school audience and people to be
Speaker 2: excited about Greek myth So I worked with them, and
Speaker 2: just at the point when we finished the edits and
Speaker 2: I needed to find a cover artist, I entered this contest.
Speaker 2: So I was very lucky. There's this wonderful illustrator online
Speaker 2: named Holly Dunn, and she does illustrations for a law
Speaker 2: of like the book subscription boxes, like I will create
Speaker 2: an illumic crate, and she was running this contest where
Speaker 2: she would design a book cover for self published artists.
Speaker 2: So I was like, what the heck, I'll enter it
Speaker 2: in and then I went so I was working with that.
Speaker 2: So it was just a lot of luck and support
Speaker 2: from other women that got me to self publish this,
Speaker 2: so it was a nice little journey.
Speaker 1: I love that so much. I really I've gotten really
Speaker 1: into watching book talks over the past year. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: like last year, I was like in a real depressive
Speaker 1: hole about this time, and I started reading a romanticy
Speaker 1: novel and then got into book talk. Has really introduced
Speaker 1: me to so many self published authors, and I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people talk some shit and I think
Speaker 1: they're wrong, Like, yeah, some of them actually could use
Speaker 1: an editor, but clearly you paid for one, so I'm sure.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I read things and I'm like, guys, you need
Speaker 1: to cut this in half. I would love to not
Speaker 1: actually do it, but I do think that like by
Speaker 1: and large, indie publishing is fucking cool, and like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just so different, like because I went to publishing school,
Speaker 1: like grad school for publishing, but it was like, you know,
Speaker 1: ten years ago and it self publishing was even more stigmatized,
Speaker 1: and I think it's gotten a lot better. And now
Speaker 1: it's like this idea of indie publishing more. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like you're just doing it for yourself, and I
Speaker 1: just think that's great, and I think BookTalk has made
Speaker 1: that really really possible, and so like, I just love
Speaker 1: that you did it, Like I think also you came
Speaker 1: to me at the right time, when I was deep
Speaker 1: in my like bookstok Romanticy Times and reading all of
Speaker 1: the crazy nonsense I read on there, and I was like,
Speaker 1: you should do it for yourself. Look at all these
Speaker 1: people who are doing it, Like it's so cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is so great that there's so many people
Speaker 2: that have so many success stories. And it gives you
Speaker 2: a lot more freedom because a lot of the traditional
Speaker 2: publishers are looking for certain things. So you can break
Speaker 2: out of the box, so you can make Like I
Speaker 2: read a book about a mandatory milking farm and that's
Speaker 2: exactly what it sounds like live and these are It
Speaker 2: was a good book. I enjoyed it. So these things
Speaker 2: like you can you have freedom to to write what
Speaker 2: you want. So even though a lot of agents were
Speaker 2: a bit hesitant to handle a story about a man
Speaker 2: who marries his mother, I got it out here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god. I love that. I just love
Speaker 1: I love the idea of being able to do it yourself.
Speaker 1: I love that you want a contest for it, Like
Speaker 1: how incredibly perfect to you? That must have felt like
Speaker 1: such a good sign.
Speaker 2: Like yeah, it felt like destiny Destney plays a big
Speaker 2: part of the book, so it was like, okay, just
Speaker 2: go with it, just go with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I yeah, I just feel like that would
Speaker 1: feel like I'm doing the right thing, Like I made
Speaker 1: the right call, especially because like getting rejected by publishers,
Speaker 1: an author and and agents fucking sucks. That's a horm
Speaker 1: feeling and it can make you feel like the book
Speaker 1: isn't worth it. And I think, like you said, they
Speaker 1: are looking for a specific thing. And it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that the thing that you've written is not going to
Speaker 1: be popular. It's just that traditional publishing is like very specific,
Speaker 1: and I think that it's absolutely valuable, and like I
Speaker 1: think that there's a place for both. But yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like it doesn't always fit and maybe it's maybe it's
Speaker 1: when your dad is also your your brother, Like who's
Speaker 1: to say, but yeah, so I just yeah, I love
Speaker 1: that you did it yourself, and I think I think
Speaker 1: that's really cool. And I know my listeners like to
Speaker 1: hear a lot about like the process behind writing. But
Speaker 1: also I think a lot of people try to write
Speaker 1: books and a lot of people feel discouraged. And the
Speaker 1: great thing about the world we live in now is
Speaker 1: you can do it yourself if you're so inclined.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot of hard work, but like you
Speaker 2: can do it. And the internet is a great place
Speaker 2: to learn things, and you can find people online that
Speaker 2: will help you. Like I met so many people through
Speaker 2: another podcast called eighty eight Cups of Tea, which was
Speaker 2: big in the writing community back in the day, and
Speaker 2: that's how I met so many of my beta readers.
Speaker 2: So like, just reach out to your online friends. You
Speaker 2: can find people that I'll write with you, and you
Speaker 2: can create your own writing circles so you can make
Speaker 2: it happen even if an agent's not listening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I just yeah, I think that's really great.
Speaker 1: And like, especially as somebody who used to work in
Speaker 1: publishing and did the whole thing, Like it's so different
Speaker 1: now in such a great way, Like the world is
Speaker 1: so much more open to everybody, and especially when traditional
Speaker 1: publishing is like working, they're working to catch up with
Speaker 1: a lot of things, but they're so far behind on
Speaker 1: a lot of things, you know, and so like sometimes
Speaker 1: you just have to go around them, and that's cool too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And even though you self publish a lot of
Speaker 2: self published books are being picked up by traditional publishers now,
Speaker 2: So it doesn't mean that you're just going to be
Speaker 2: a self published author forever, even though that's not a
Speaker 2: bad thing. Like there's a lot more freedom through self publishing,
Speaker 2: but there's a lot more, like you said, like some
Speaker 2: some self published authors can't afford to get an editor,
Speaker 2: but like if you're with the publishing house, you get
Speaker 2: that treatment. So that's one of the advantages to traditional publishing.
Speaker 2: But like they both have their own merits, and it's
Speaker 2: just really great that so many more people are able
Speaker 2: to self follish things now.
Speaker 1: It is it is? Yeah, so well, I think that's
Speaker 1: a perfect way to say to you, like where can
Speaker 1: people find your book? Like how is that working in
Speaker 1: that respect? And yeah, when is it available? This episode
Speaker 1: will come out, I think after it's already been available,
Speaker 1: but you can tell me anyway.
Speaker 2: And where they can buy, right, So it will be
Speaker 2: coming out January thirtieth, twenty twenty four. It's currently up
Speaker 2: for pre order on Amazon for kindle and paperback, and
Speaker 2: I am trying to work out ingram Spark to get
Speaker 2: it in bookstores, so hopefully you'll be able to get
Speaker 2: it through your bookstores. As well, but it's also there
Speaker 2: on Amza.
Speaker 1: Amazing. Now, from a completely personal standpoint, have you considered Cobo?
Speaker 1: And also why not? I don't know? Great, can I
Speaker 1: recommend that you consider Cobo? Not least because I know
Speaker 1: the woman who runs the entire Canadian store and she's
Speaker 1: fucking lovely. Yeah, like, I just yeah, it's it's so
Speaker 1: great that you're doing this. I realize I was checking
Speaker 1: the date so this will come out, just looked at
Speaker 1: it and I lost it. What do I have you
Speaker 1: February second, So when this episode comes out, it'll be
Speaker 1: fresh and new and available and hopefully in stores and
Speaker 1: hopefully on Cobo, as people will have lost a huge
Speaker 1: part of that conversation where I just put another option.
Speaker 1: But yeah, like, I just that's great. I really yeah.
Speaker 1: I hope that it does super well. I hope some
Speaker 1: of my listeners pick it up. More thebes the better,
Speaker 1: but also like, yeah, more people doing it for themselves
Speaker 1: when when the industry might let them down, so cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope people like it.
Speaker 1: I mean that part's really scary, but you can't overthink it,
Speaker 1: so I just gotta hope for the best. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for doing This has been so
Speaker 1: much fun. What my listeners don't know is the number
Speaker 1: of times we stopped to talk about other random things
Speaker 1: that will get cut out because I divulged a lot
Speaker 1: of information that is not yet public. But yeah, clearly
Speaker 1: this has been a true joy. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for coming back on again.
Speaker 2: You're welcome, Thank you for having me. This has just
Speaker 2: been such a great experience, and I'm so happy to
Speaker 2: be on the podcast again.
Speaker 1: I'm thrilled to have you and thrilled to have your
Speaker 1: book in the world, especially like after having dragged your
Speaker 1: poor episode out for so long before I released it,
Speaker 1: hoping that I would do the Thebian and then realizing
Speaker 1: it's like thirty books long, and I was like, I
Speaker 1: am not prepared to do all right. Again, I'm glad
Speaker 1: to Wonderful Nerds. Thank you so much for listening to
Speaker 1: this episode. Thank you to Meghan for coming on the
Speaker 1: show and for sharing everything about her novel and the
Speaker 1: writing process, because I love that part so much. But
Speaker 1: for me, it's really interesting to hear it from another
Speaker 1: classicist too, or or just somebody who has studied classics,
Speaker 1: because when you have this level of absurd knowledge of
Speaker 1: the ancient world. I think it can be almost a
Speaker 1: hindrance sometimes, as you might have heard in some of
Speaker 1: those points on obsession kind of with quote unquote accuracy
Speaker 1: in a thing that has no need for accuracy, because
Speaker 1: mythology is mythology. So it's just like a unique experience
Speaker 1: chatting about that. And it was so much fun talking
Speaker 1: to Megan and also Thebes, you know, Thebes so huge.
Speaker 1: Thank you and check out Hirdles of the Sphinx available
Speaker 1: at Kindle and now Cobo, and follow Meghan. I've linked
Speaker 1: to some places in the episode's description enjoy. Thank you
Speaker 1: all so much for listening. Let's talk about Myths Baby
Speaker 1: is written and produced by me Live Albert. MICHAELA. Smith
Speaker 1: is the Hermes to my Olympians. My assistant producer, Laura
Speaker 1: Smith is the wonderful audio engineer and production assistant. The
Speaker 1: podcast is part of the iHeart Podcast Network. Listen on
Speaker 1: Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Visit Patreon dot
Speaker 1: com slash myths Baby to help support the show. Can
Speaker 1: you tell I'm not reading my script this time? That
Speaker 1: was all of a memory. I'm pretty good. Thank you
Speaker 1: all so much for listening. I am live and I
Speaker 1: love this shit, particularly Thebes, because Thebes