Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining me for session three forty six of the
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. We all deserve
Speaker 1: to find and have love, but this process can look
Speaker 1: and feel a little different when you're navigating the dating
Speaker 1: scene as a transgender woman. To explore all of the
Speaker 1: nuances that come with dating as a transgender person, I'm
Speaker 1: joined by award winning journalist Derek L. Cottingham. Derek is
Speaker 1: a proud Southern Black trans woman based in Los Angeles
Speaker 1: whose career portfolio includes The La Times, Harper's Bazaar, Essence,
Speaker 1: and The Washington Post. She's also a general board member
Speaker 1: of NABJLA, where she strives to make the industry more
Speaker 1: inclusive for black journalists. During our conversation, Derek and I
Speaker 1: discussed some of her experiences navigating dating as a trans woman,
Speaker 1: including discerning between genuine interests and fetishization, deciding which dating
Speaker 1: app is right for you, and choosing how to maintain
Speaker 1: safety when disclosing your identity to a new partner. If
Speaker 1: something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share
Speaker 1: with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in Session,
Speaker 1: or join us over in the sister circles to talk
Speaker 1: more about the episode. You can join us at community
Speaker 1: dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2: Derek, Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you. So I wonder
Speaker 1: if you could take us back to the early stages
Speaker 1: of your transition and talk with me about, like, what
Speaker 1: did those early experiences, how did that shape what you
Speaker 1: felt like dating was going to be.
Speaker 3: So transition is really hard. People sometimes know transition based
Speaker 3: on when you start your medical journey when you start
Speaker 3: social transitioning. So social transitioning is like when you're going
Speaker 3: through the world and letting everyone know these are my pronouns,
Speaker 3: this is how I'll be moving when you start wearing
Speaker 3: the gender of firm and clothing and leaning more towards
Speaker 3: showcasing what the gender that you identify as is social.
Speaker 3: And then there's the medical journey to where you go
Speaker 3: and start hormone replacement therapy or HRT, whether you're introducing
Speaker 3: estrogen or more testa shown into your body or using
Speaker 3: lockers for the dominant hormone that your body naturally produces.
Speaker 3: And so for me, I started social transitioning a few
Speaker 3: years ago, but very much in a very discreete and
Speaker 3: secret way for all intentsive purposes. When I would date,
Speaker 3: I was dating as a trans woman in my personal life. However,
Speaker 3: I had not yet let people know that I was trans,
Speaker 3: or really let anyone know until last year of March
Speaker 3: is when I made it public and I let my
Speaker 3: loved ones and my family and everyone know. And so
Speaker 3: I've only been on the medical side of transitioning. It'll
Speaker 3: be a year at the end of March.
Speaker 1: So when you started socially transitioning, What were your thoughts
Speaker 1: around dating and what that might be like for you.
Speaker 3: For me, it was interesting because a lot of my
Speaker 3: dating experiences I had came out as like by and
Speaker 3: queer when I was seventeen, and a lot of my
Speaker 3: dating experiences were within a queer space, and a lot
Speaker 3: of the times femininity was not like the thing that
Speaker 3: was sought after, and there was this notion of no facts,
Speaker 3: no felms, no this type of thing like if it
Speaker 3: was masked for masks, and this is all that people
Speaker 3: were interested in.
Speaker 2: And so also growing up in the South and just.
Speaker 3: Being black and growing up in like the Baptist religion
Speaker 3: and just real Southern upbringing, there was a lot of
Speaker 3: internal interrogation of not feeling like I was disappointing others
Speaker 3: by like being my true self, by embracing my womanhood,
Speaker 3: embracing my femininity, and always wondering if by being myself
Speaker 3: would that mean that I would be alone for the
Speaker 3: rest of my life romantically. And so it took a
Speaker 3: lot of mental and emotional internal talking with myself and
Speaker 3: sitting with the feeling and noticing that when I was
Speaker 3: presenting more felm outwardly to people that I was happier,
Speaker 3: It would sleep easier at night, I felt better about myself.
Speaker 3: And I would literally cringe at heating pronouns, like I
Speaker 3: would feel like a sword was stuck into my chest.
Speaker 3: And so that was a lot of the mental and
Speaker 3: emotional things that I had to work through personally when
Speaker 3: I was navigating the dating space too, because it was
Speaker 3: this thing of like, what does it mean when femininity
Speaker 3: is just not appreciated as much in the dating space
Speaker 3: coming from like the queer space of where I was
Speaker 3: coming from, and still at the time, I was so unsure.
Speaker 2: Now I'm a little bit more clear on things and
Speaker 2: know what I'm.
Speaker 3: Attracted to as far as a partner, what I need
Speaker 3: from them, What does it mean for sexuality when I'm
Speaker 3: dating someone, and things like that, because when I am dating,
Speaker 3: I'm typically dating someone that is more mass presenting, whether
Speaker 3: it's SIS or trans, and I tend to date people
Speaker 3: that are straight by and pansexual, and so now there's
Speaker 3: a bit more understanding. But in those early stages, I
Speaker 3: was like, I don't know the terminology, I don't have
Speaker 3: the knowledge, and coming from the South, and there were
Speaker 3: very few like the queerness that you did know was
Speaker 3: more you had someone that was either lesbian or that
Speaker 3: was gay. But I really didn't know any non binary
Speaker 3: or trans people coming from like Texas, Louisiana and just
Speaker 3: growing up in that real religious background. And so it
Speaker 3: was also not that many like possibility models on TV,
Speaker 3: and like the few trans people you did see, they
Speaker 3: were usually white women or something, and me being very
Speaker 3: aware that my experience is not going to be the
Speaker 3: exact same as theirs, and there's not going to be
Speaker 3: that same type of mobility, and so it was some time.
Speaker 3: I am really trying to be comfortable with that, even
Speaker 3: in private while dating.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought the media piece into it, because
Speaker 1: I'm very curious about that. Can you remember like your
Speaker 1: earliest experience of seeing yourself reflected on the screen and
Speaker 1: then how that helped to shape your identity?
Speaker 3: Wow, it really wouldn't be the most accurate depiction would
Speaker 3: not be until more recently, and it would be with
Speaker 3: Uncle Clifford from Pea Valley. It would be the character
Speaker 3: that's played by this actress on the SHI who was
Speaker 3: also a black trans woman and a journalist, and those
Speaker 3: would be the most accurate depictions where I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 3: that's me, that's through and through as a black queer Southerner,
Speaker 3: as the one that is navigating media space. But also
Speaker 3: my transidentity is a very public thing too, because I
Speaker 3: transitioned while I was already in my career, and I
Speaker 3: also opted not to change my name.
Speaker 2: So it's this thing of like it's.
Speaker 3: A little bit different, of I don't have the option
Speaker 3: to live in a stealth way or not really let
Speaker 3: it be known that I am trans. And so those
Speaker 3: two depictions were more common for me. And then when
Speaker 3: I was growing up, I kind of just related to
Speaker 3: a lot of more sim and queer characters, Like I
Speaker 3: loved all the animated characters that Chris Summer played. I
Speaker 3: loved her character in a different world, I felt from her.
Speaker 3: And also it would be like other queer characters on
Speaker 3: De Grassy you have like Marco, and so I would
Speaker 3: identify with aspects of these different people. But not until
Speaker 3: more recently did I feel like, Okay, that's exactly carbon
Speaker 3: copy like me. And then just as far as like womanhood,
Speaker 3: it would be Queen Latifa, especially live in single days,
Speaker 3: like when I think of what beauty and womanhood and
Speaker 3: stuff looks like for me and the way I expressed it,
Speaker 3: it's very Queen Latifa Teona Taylor centric and really look
Speaker 3: to like Tracey Hallis Ross and her time on girlfriends
Speaker 3: and things. And so it would just be bits and
Speaker 3: pieces of like possibility models that I would see in
Speaker 3: media and not more recently would it be something that
Speaker 3: would be this character encapsulates me as a whole.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned, you know, especially being like a Southerner
Speaker 1: and not feeling like there were lots of like mentors
Speaker 1: and things to kind of look up to to kind
Speaker 1: of help you navigate this dating space. Where did you
Speaker 1: find resources like who kind of stepped in the gap
Speaker 1: for that or how did you feel those gaps?
Speaker 3: Google a lot of Google, a lot a lot of Google,
Speaker 3: And then there are now working in media to have
Speaker 3: a few other like transistors that work in media who
Speaker 3: understand I can lean on them and ask them a
Speaker 3: few questions here and there.
Speaker 2: But before then it was.
Speaker 3: Like reddits and tumblers and these like online resources of
Speaker 3: community and basically figuring out all these different types of things.
Speaker 3: And so yeah, it was definitely like leaning towards online
Speaker 3: spaces of community and find getting different guys and articles
Speaker 3: and reading these aspects and helps me put terminology to
Speaker 3: things too, and then just reading books as well about
Speaker 3: black transidentity.
Speaker 1: So any suggestions for people about how to navigate some
Speaker 1: of those spaces, because I think there's a lot of
Speaker 1: good there, but maybe not so good also when you're
Speaker 1: going into these foreign territories so to speak. So any
Speaker 1: suggestions for people, especially younger people who maybe checking out
Speaker 1: this episode about like how do you navigate and know
Speaker 1: what to pay attention to in online communities.
Speaker 3: I lean on my media literacy training. I lean on
Speaker 3: my gut feeling. If I read something from a community
Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, that made me cringe a little
Speaker 3: bit or feel uneasy, like maybe this is not the
Speaker 3: community where I need to be looking for resources at.
Speaker 3: And then if I don't have that feeling and I
Speaker 3: feel like, oh this resource was helpful, I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 3: let me continue to look. I've never really been a
Speaker 3: Reddit type of person until I medically transitioned, and so
Speaker 3: I'm on Reddit quite a bit. There's a lot of
Speaker 3: different very transcentric spaces on Reddit that are moderated by
Speaker 3: trans people, and there are even spaces for people that
Speaker 3: are interested in dating trans people of like how to
Speaker 3: help them navigate dating someone and using the right terminology,
Speaker 3: not slipping up on things, also making sure they're not
Speaker 3: fetishizing people, and so redd it's been a resource. TikTok.
Speaker 3: There's a few transcreators that I follow on there, and
Speaker 3: I really gear towards more other black trans women who
Speaker 3: I can't relate to. And then I also just gauge
Speaker 3: things based on like, at what age did I transition
Speaker 3: to like temper, what my medical transition could actually look
Speaker 3: like before contemplating the possibly of any surgeries and what
Speaker 3: genetically and medically could happen from hormones and so TikTok.
Speaker 3: There's a few community spaces on x Twitter and things
Speaker 3: like that. For me too, having a doctor who is
Speaker 3: very well versed in trans and non binary identity that
Speaker 3: is overseeing my gender affirming care has really helped as well.
Speaker 3: But then also just having those older people who they
Speaker 3: were starting when like HRT was not as accessible and
Speaker 3: they have been able to be such good guidance on things.
Speaker 3: It's just definitely following the gut and trusting the way
Speaker 3: something makes you feel when you're looking at resources, something
Speaker 3: makes you uneasy, or you feel like that doesn't seem
Speaker 3: right and it makes you raise an eyebrow and you're
Speaker 3: just like, no, I don't think this answered my question.
Speaker 3: I would click out. I would go look for something else.
Speaker 3: And then when you feel like something is sitting and
Speaker 3: resonating with yourself.
Speaker 2: I would do that.
Speaker 3: And so that's helped me with the dating side of things,
Speaker 3: in figuring out terminology, figuring out how to put words
Speaker 3: to the ways that I was feeling, or just even
Speaker 3: navigating and tempering my journey on HRT and not feeling
Speaker 3: like I would wake up and like I would see
Speaker 3: the end results.
Speaker 2: It takes time. It's a process.
Speaker 3: You're essentially going through a second puberty again, and so
Speaker 3: it can take up to five years for everything. And
Speaker 3: so I think being able to access that online information
Speaker 3: where people are documenting their own transitions, sharing information that
Speaker 3: they gleaned through their process, it's like really helpful and
Speaker 3: important for a lot of young trans people, and it's
Speaker 3: just always important just to know. Like early on, for me,
Speaker 3: it was this thing of like, I didn't get to
Speaker 3: transition when I was younger, and I transitioned after I
Speaker 3: was twenty five and transitioned right when I turned twenty
Speaker 3: seven medically and so tempering that certain things I would
Speaker 3: not get from the hormones because I started a little later.
Speaker 3: But that's always not the hard, stead fast rule of
Speaker 3: realizing that hey, genetics might work, some things may not work,
Speaker 3: and just being happy and graceful about the body that
Speaker 3: I'm in, grateful for being able to finally live in
Speaker 3: my truth and be happy that there are some resources
Speaker 3: out there.
Speaker 1: Kind of thank you so much for all of that.
Speaker 1: So what would you say are the new normals you've
Speaker 1: had to navigate and get used to dating as a
Speaker 1: trans woman straight men?
Speaker 3: I you would think I've been dating a lot of
Speaker 3: straight men in the past five to six years or so.
Speaker 3: Somehow I end up always that's who I end up
Speaker 3: in the long haul day, and it's very different. Luckily,
Speaker 3: I'm the youngest of five, so I have two older
Speaker 3: brothers and they're really good with like advice. And my
Speaker 3: older brother that's two years older than me, is like
Speaker 3: when I first announced to my family that I was
Speaker 3: he was like right on board, and it's like my
Speaker 3: little sister this and that, and I'm always really good
Speaker 3: at gaging things because also my dating pool is typically
Speaker 3: like black millennial men because I only date with inside
Speaker 3: my race and typically it's like straight men, so I
Speaker 3: can glean from them like, hey, you feel this way
Speaker 3: or you've dealt with this before.
Speaker 2: How should I approach this to.
Speaker 3: Where it doesn't seem like I'm nagging them or like
Speaker 3: I understand where they're coming from, and how can I
Speaker 3: approach this topic? And my brothers have been like really
Speaker 3: really helpful with that, But it definitely would be entering
Speaker 3: that hetero dating space a little bit. There's someone that
Speaker 3: I would seeing and they would not let me open
Speaker 3: a door, and they are from the South. They were like,
Speaker 3: would not let me open the door. They would get
Speaker 3: mad when I would do anything like that. They're like
Speaker 3: very chivalry because I'm like, it's modern world, modern woman,
Speaker 3: modern dating. Chivalry's kind of little on his last breath,
Speaker 3: so it's always shocking when you experience it. And so
Speaker 3: it would just be those kind of hetero norms. But
Speaker 3: it is something that's very different for me because it's
Speaker 3: not what I've done dating wise, and so that has
Speaker 3: been like the most interesting to navigate. And I find
Speaker 3: myself having girl talk with like my friends and my
Speaker 3: aunts and like my mom and stuff about these things,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, okay, that makes sense. But yeah,
Speaker 3: definitely navigating dating straight man, And.
Speaker 1: Is there anything that's been more positive or more uplifting
Speaker 1: than you expected it to be.
Speaker 3: I think now I came out in a time where
Speaker 3: there have been work of like the idea of trans people,
Speaker 3: specifically black trans women existing was not as out of
Speaker 3: mind out of sight for people, and so I do
Speaker 3: think when it comes to dating, there's an opportunity for
Speaker 3: me to date people who are comfortable being with me
Speaker 3: in public. There's still a lot of people that are not,
Speaker 3: especially just the way that we talk about queerness and
Speaker 3: transness in the black community in general, especially if you're
Speaker 3: from the South and grew up in a very religious.
Speaker 2: Background like I did.
Speaker 3: And so it's been refreshing to meet some nice guys
Speaker 3: that are totally secure in who they are in themselves.
Speaker 3: They're like, I'm either by or pain or they're like,
Speaker 3: I'm I'm straight. I only like women. I only date women,
Speaker 3: and you're a woman for me, and you make me happy.
Speaker 3: I'm very attracted to you, and I don't care what
Speaker 3: nobody gonna say. They're like PDAs ago dating and public
Speaker 3: as a go, and that's very one gender for me.
Speaker 3: But two, it's also just romantically, just when you're dating someone,
Speaker 3: you never want to feel like you're being the secret.
Speaker 3: You never want to feel like they're embarrassed of you.
Speaker 3: It's such a dehumanizing feeling. And so I think that's
Speaker 3: a really big part because even before my transition, and
Speaker 3: maybe I was dating some queer men, they were always
Speaker 3: embarrassed about my femininity. They were always embarrassed about me
Speaker 3: and aspects of who I was as myself, and it
Speaker 3: just was not ever a good feeling. And so that's
Speaker 3: definitely a part where it's like a lot more happier.
Speaker 3: But then I also enjoy girl talk with my girls
Speaker 3: and talk about this stuff.
Speaker 2: I have fun with that.
Speaker 3: The sisterhood from the black women in my life, it's
Speaker 3: been amazing. They're always giving so many tips and advice
Speaker 3: on things, especially when it's like a date night.
Speaker 2: They're like, oh, you gotta do this, girl, have this,
Speaker 2: be prepared with this, and I'm like, thank you.
Speaker 3: So it's definitely those aspects that have been like, hmmm,
Speaker 3: this is kind of great. I like it.
Speaker 1: Nice, nice more from our conversation after the break, so
Speaker 1: we know that a lot of dating these days is
Speaker 1: happening online, so people have mixed experiences. So I'd love
Speaker 1: to hear about your experiences dating online. Any tips that
Speaker 1: you would have to share are things that you're like,
Speaker 1: please say away from this.
Speaker 2: I'm an online girl. I am.
Speaker 3: I'm an online girl. I've been online for most of
Speaker 3: my life. I'm a what the kids call a zenillennial.
Speaker 3: I'm a cusp between millennial and gen z. So technology
Speaker 3: has been a huge part of my life and dating.
Speaker 3: I was on all the apps. I no longer am
Speaker 3: on the apps. I don't have them on my phone anymore,
Speaker 3: but I was on all of them. The queer ones.
Speaker 3: There's some trans specific ones that you got to be
Speaker 3: a little careful about because they're marketed as for us,
Speaker 3: but what there really are are very fetishization and people
Speaker 3: that are like chasers, and you got to be really
Speaker 3: weary about those ones. And then there are some very
Speaker 3: black centric ones that while company policy may be they're
Speaker 3: pro everybody, the experience in who is allowed to be
Speaker 3: on there and who doesn't get bans and reporting is
Speaker 3: very different from the actual reality.
Speaker 2: And then there's.
Speaker 3: Okaycuep it, hear me out, hear me out. It took
Speaker 3: me hearing from some of my older friends who met
Speaker 3: their partners on okaycuep It to give okaycup it a try.
Speaker 3: And I'm single, but I've been actively dating and out
Speaker 3: of who is working, that person came from okaycupit, and
Speaker 3: so that is very shocking just for me being so
Speaker 3: young and like always being long on tender rayah mumble
Speaker 3: and like all the other newer ones. But yeah, they
Speaker 3: came from okay Cupid, and so I'm pro dating apps.
Speaker 3: I say that I'm trans straight up. It kind of
Speaker 3: is a little easier for me to not even really
Speaker 3: contemplate stealth or being public, only because I chose not
Speaker 3: to change my name. And part of that reason was
Speaker 3: that half my career was already under my name. And
Speaker 3: I'm a journalist, I'm working media, I'm front facing, and
Speaker 3: I go viral quite a bit online on different topics
Speaker 3: and stuff, and so I was just like, there's no
Speaker 3: way I can just disappear and just pop back out
Speaker 3: and nobody knows who I am. And so because of
Speaker 3: those things, I am very upfront about it. I'm also
Speaker 3: living with HIV, which I've discussed and made that public
Speaker 3: as well. And that I contracted that from like assault,
Speaker 3: and so I'm very honest that I'm positive I'm an
Speaker 3: undetectable and I am a trans woman that's in my
Speaker 3: bio all the time. On dating apps, other ways you
Speaker 3: can do it. A lot of girls kind of just
Speaker 3: put the little flag as a sticker on one of
Speaker 3: their photos so it's clear. Other people may start the
Speaker 3: conversation with someone like the highs and the hellos and
Speaker 3: then early on their life just so you know I
Speaker 3: am also trans. There are so many different ways that
Speaker 3: people disclose these things and dating apps, it can be hard.
Speaker 3: You're sifting through a lot of people that are fetishizing you,
Speaker 3: a lot of people that may be attracted to you,
Speaker 3: but they have their own internal stuff that they're figuring out.
Speaker 3: There was one guy, it was a guy who matches
Speaker 3: me on a dating app, and it was like two
Speaker 3: years ago. This guy mashed me on the dating app.
Speaker 3: We were hitting it off on the app. We exchanged
Speaker 3: numbers and like I said, my status as far as
Speaker 3: my HIV is in my bio and that I'm a
Speaker 3: trans woman is in my bio, and so we're hitting
Speaker 3: it off. We get each other's number. I guess they
Speaker 3: finally go back and read my bio. We're still talking
Speaker 3: over text, having good time. They're setting up a date
Speaker 3: all of this, and they're like, whoa, you got me,
Speaker 3: you tricked me, you got me real good. And I'm
Speaker 3: just like, what are you talking about. They're like, you
Speaker 3: played me real good. I didn't know you were trans
Speaker 3: and this and that da da dah. And I was like,
Speaker 3: it's like the first thing in my bio, Like did
Speaker 3: you not read the bio? And they were like, no,
Speaker 3: you played me well. And I was like, who tricked you?
Speaker 3: Who played you? When it's right there, first thing on
Speaker 3: the profile. And it was such an interesting kind of dynamic.
Speaker 3: Situations like that always early on too, because at the
Speaker 3: time I wasn't had to start my medical transition, and
Speaker 3: at the time of that time, I wasn't working full time.
Speaker 3: I was freelancing full time, and so I just didn't
Speaker 3: have health insurance, and so I was always really hard
Speaker 3: on myself about not being able to quote unquote past
Speaker 3: or feeling like I hadn't started my actual medical transition,
Speaker 3: and so things like that did hurt and hit my
Speaker 3: insecurities a lot about myself, and I'll trigger a lot
Speaker 3: of my dysphoria. But it was just thing of like,
Speaker 3: no one tricked you, but you feel that I intentionally
Speaker 3: went out of my way to do something dubious to you,
Speaker 3: and it was right there. I'm gonna say this is
Speaker 3: the clean way because I gotta be a lady in
Speaker 3: situations like that. There were so many different situations that
Speaker 3: happened that were like that.
Speaker 2: And I joke with my.
Speaker 3: Girls now and I'm just like, men don't be reading
Speaker 3: none of these bios on dating sites at all. They
Speaker 3: see a pretty face or a booty and they swipe
Speaker 3: right and they just start the conversation, and then down
Speaker 3: the line in the conversation they might go click back
Speaker 3: and read your bio. And I'm like, that's exactly what happens.
Speaker 3: And I know that happens just because of that situation
Speaker 3: in so many other situations. And so that's it's been
Speaker 3: like my online dating experience. There's been good experiences, there's
Speaker 3: been bad. There's been some people where it started off
Speaker 3: maybe let's go on a date, and then it turned
Speaker 3: into friendships, it turned into just us networking because we
Speaker 3: found out we both work in media, or they just
Speaker 3: became good friends. But dating as a black trans woman
Speaker 3: is very much like dating as a black woman in general.
Speaker 3: That is sis added on top with a bunch of
Speaker 3: sprinkling of transphobia possibly all.
Speaker 2: These other things.
Speaker 3: You're still dealing with a massage noor, You're still dealing
Speaker 3: with people either fetishizing you, You're dealing with people that
Speaker 3: are dehumanizing you. It's all these things you have to
Speaker 3: sift through just to find Prince Charming or the person
Speaker 3: who you're meant to be with or who you're a
Speaker 3: person is And it's interesting. But I like meeting people
Speaker 3: in person. I also like online dating. I think online
Speaker 3: dating you do what works for you, and I've done
Speaker 3: them all. Like I said, I even was like on Riyah,
Speaker 3: I just don't believe in paying for so I was
Speaker 3: on there for a bit, had a couple of matches,
Speaker 3: but it was too industry and networking for me that
Speaker 3: I didn't too much care for it. I've also dated
Speaker 3: a few other people with public platforms who were very
Speaker 3: iffy about dating me because it was this thing. They
Speaker 3: would google me and I pop up with an actual
Speaker 3: Google knowledge panel and so it's like, oh, this is
Speaker 3: a very recognizable person. So if we're out in public.
Speaker 3: If we're doing things in public, people are going to
Speaker 3: know that she's trans. And if we're holding hands, if
Speaker 3: we're looking romantic, they're going to know that I'm into
Speaker 3: trans women. There was one actor who I was seeing
Speaker 3: and not really that long, but we were just seeing
Speaker 3: each other, and he did this thing of like, my
Speaker 3: career it could be at risk, all this other stuff
Speaker 3: and just being affiliated with you, which hurt me so
Speaker 3: bad because I'm just like, while I can't understand this,
Speaker 3: like insecurities, fears and stuff like that, it's the way
Speaker 3: you go about articulating it to a person that just
Speaker 3: doesn't make them feel like also crappy. They didn't articulate
Speaker 3: in a really great way, and so I gave a
Speaker 3: little snappy push back and I said, don't nobody even
Speaker 3: know who you are? They googled your name? No, none
Speaker 3: pop up. You google me, something does pop up. And
Speaker 3: so it was a very interesting situation. It was this
Speaker 3: thing of them telling me they don't care about who
Speaker 3: sees us and this stuff like leading me on in
Speaker 3: that way, and then it flipped to this and I
Speaker 3: was just like, then leave me alone, Like you didn't
Speaker 3: have to approach me. You approached me, you asked me
Speaker 3: out we were going on dates. Leave me alone. If
Speaker 3: you cannot get down with who I am, leave me
Speaker 3: alone because there's no fantasy here, there's no fling, there's
Speaker 3: no nothing, because I don't got time for it. I'm
Speaker 3: very guarded and protective of my heart because of the
Speaker 3: relationships I've had, the things that I've learned from those relationships,
Speaker 3: and so I'm just like, until you figure out yourself,
Speaker 3: until you are comfortable with what you're attracted to, please
Speaker 3: say away. I've had a lot of different situations of
Speaker 3: dating online and some goods and bads in between, and
Speaker 3: you know, it's just the experiences.
Speaker 1: Yes. So, Derek, you mentioned being careful of being fetishized
Speaker 1: multiple times. Can you give us some indications of like
Speaker 1: how we would vet for that, Like how would somebody
Speaker 1: know whether it's like somebody who has genuine interests versus
Speaker 1: somebody who's interested as a fetish.
Speaker 3: It's very similar to and I think a lot of
Speaker 3: black women can understand this too. It's versus when a
Speaker 3: guy is like actively trying to set up a date
Speaker 3: versus just like trying to just kick it. And we
Speaker 3: know what kick it means and a lot of them
Speaker 3: just be trying to kick it. I can tell when
Speaker 3: they're like not trying to like go and hang out
Speaker 3: in public, but they're like, let me come over, or
Speaker 3: you come over here, and I'm like, it's eleven o'clock
Speaker 3: at night, it's one am. Why are you asking me
Speaker 3: to come over? We had a whole day. You also
Speaker 3: told me that you were off.
Speaker 2: I was off.
Speaker 3: We were cool, we could have coordinated something, and it's gauging,
Speaker 3: like those things going with your gut. But then when
Speaker 3: they're like so anti just even just doing platonic hangouts
Speaker 3: with you, and if they're only contacting you to inquire
Speaker 3: about the kicking it of it all, that also said
Speaker 3: something for me too, like we can't hold a regular
Speaker 3: conversation because for me, with dating, I need to know
Speaker 3: that we have some interest, we have some things that
Speaker 3: we can talk about before we even get into the
Speaker 3: flirting or the sexual nature of us. When I date,
Speaker 3: the typical times where things work out is when I'm
Speaker 3: a nerd. I'm an anime nerd, I'm a sneaker nerd,
Speaker 3: I'm a music nerd, and I love pop culture. When
Speaker 3: I'm able to talk about these things with other people,
Speaker 3: or I mesh well platonically and romantically with people who
Speaker 3: are nerds about their own favorite thing, and I can
Speaker 3: have that conversation with them. It's also this thing of
Speaker 3: coming from like the queer space. There's this dl nature
Speaker 3: of like some guys don't even let you know what
Speaker 3: their name is, but they want to spend time with you,
Speaker 3: they want to do all this other stuff. It's like,
Speaker 3: I'm good, but it's very much this nature of how
Speaker 3: did someone approach you make you feel? If they left
Speaker 3: you feeling uneasy, if it made you feel like what
Speaker 3: did you mean by that, If it doesn't make you
Speaker 3: feel enthusiastic, like oh wow, I really would like to
Speaker 3: hang out with them. It's a good way to kind
Speaker 3: of really gauge in these things. There's just one app.
Speaker 3: I don't know what to say, but it's really fetishizing.
Speaker 3: Like I was using it as one of the apps
Speaker 3: I was using for dating, and it was just a
Speaker 3: lot of like chasers on there, and I had on
Speaker 3: there that I don't do hookups, none of that, don't
Speaker 3: not looking for none of that, and people were still
Speaker 3: trying because I guess that's what it started being for
Speaker 3: a lot of people. It was like very much a
Speaker 3: chaser app for trans women, Like it was an app
Speaker 3: for people to go in there and find trans women
Speaker 3: and appease what they were into. And so those are
Speaker 3: those types of things too. What worked for me also
Speaker 3: was just getting off of the queer centric apps like that,
Speaker 3: like the ones that were very catered towards us. I
Speaker 3: kind of just you know, let people know that I'm
Speaker 3: transit my bio check that I'm a woman or tender,
Speaker 3: and a few other places you can now check that
Speaker 3: you're trans women like they have a more expansive gender identification,
Speaker 3: and I just kind of stick to the ones that
Speaker 3: the this is hed people use and feel and kind
Speaker 3: of just not sift.
Speaker 2: Through any of that.
Speaker 3: But it's also this notion of like, if you're on
Speaker 3: the queer ones and there are trans sub categories that
Speaker 3: you can select, a lot of us feel like that's
Speaker 3: a little easier because you don't have to do the
Speaker 3: dance of letting someone know that you're trans. And so
Speaker 3: that is the appeal of those spaces. But with those spaces,
Speaker 3: the other side sometimes is that it's real fetishization is
Speaker 3: very hookup culture. It's very like people are only interested
Speaker 3: in you for your body, for what you do for
Speaker 3: them on an arousal level versus as a person, and
Speaker 3: before transitioning, before socially transitioning, just dating in general has
Speaker 3: always been that for me, where people were more in
Speaker 3: love with the idea of me. My past relationships were
Speaker 3: very centered on those things, and so I learned a
Speaker 3: lot from those things where I.
Speaker 2: Was not happy.
Speaker 3: Some of those relationships were very abusive verbally and physically,
Speaker 3: and just be able to catch the signs of like,
Speaker 3: this person does not make me feel safe, They do
Speaker 3: not make me feel secure, they do not make me
Speaker 3: feel happy, And I have an anxious attachment style, and
Speaker 3: so I'm like, if they're exasperbating that like twenty four
Speaker 3: to seven one hundred percent of the time, I'm like,
Speaker 3: maybe we don't need to do.
Speaker 1: Right right more from our conversation after the break, so
Speaker 1: you've shared that you are very forthcoming with your identity
Speaker 1: as a trans woman, with your medical status, all of
Speaker 1: those things. But we know that people are in different
Speaker 1: stages of where they want you and how they want
Speaker 1: to share that. What kinds of things would you say
Speaker 1: people need to consider about when to have a conversation
Speaker 1: if they are not as public or sharing as forthcomingly
Speaker 1: as you are.
Speaker 3: I think when you feel safe, a lot of it
Speaker 3: is safety because you don't know how someone's going to react.
Speaker 3: Like the story I told about the guy earlier, it
Speaker 3: was in my bio. He did not read the bio,
Speaker 3: got my number and everything. We're talking everything, but still
Speaker 3: felt like I tricked him, quote unquote. It's a lose
Speaker 3: lose A lot of these times with people. For you, though,
Speaker 3: when you are trans, it's about what allows you to
Speaker 3: go to sleep at night, what makes you feel safe,
Speaker 3: what makes you feel comfortable. Because everyone thinks there's this
Speaker 3: big body man type of gotscha thing that's happening, and
Speaker 3: most of the time that's not the case. What's happening
Speaker 3: is people are attracted to us. They just don't want
Speaker 3: other people to know that they are, and they get
Speaker 3: very embarrassed or insecure about it because of the way
Speaker 3: society talks about trans people, or they talk about the
Speaker 3: people that are in love and interested and attracted to
Speaker 3: trans people. When I date someone, like seriously date them,
Speaker 3: always recommend them to watch Cocomo City. It's a film
Speaker 3: that was on film circuit last year at festivals and
Speaker 3: I saw it at Sundance last year and I interviewed
Speaker 3: the director, who is Grammy nominated producer d Smith, who
Speaker 3: is also trans. And there's a lot of trans documentaries
Speaker 3: and films. This one, though, it was very specific to
Speaker 3: the experience of black trans women and the people that
Speaker 3: love us, and it really got into the nitty gritty
Speaker 3: from people who were doing survival work for people that
Speaker 3: are engaged and married in relationships with straight men. And
Speaker 3: we are in the black community because we know how
Speaker 3: we can navigate and really talk about queer issues. It's
Speaker 3: very different than like broader kind of conversations. And it
Speaker 3: was these in depth interviews about these dynamics with the
Speaker 3: people about the safety of it all.
Speaker 2: How but just the way that you.
Speaker 3: Even talk about people that are interested in us adds
Speaker 3: to the harm for us because it changes and affects
Speaker 3: the way they react to finding out the person that
Speaker 3: they are attracted to is trans, even if they may
Speaker 3: know or have a glean in their mind. Are like,
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure she's trans, but she ain't probably told
Speaker 3: me yet, but I'm cool with it, but you don't
Speaker 3: really know for sure. And so I always tell the
Speaker 3: guys and like, watch that like I also gauge is
Speaker 3: how they talk about, like people in general, how they
Speaker 3: talk about black women, because you might mean me where
Speaker 3: my hair is a totally different way. This is a
Speaker 3: fresh twist out five days when now it's gonna be.
Speaker 3: So I tell people like, don't be feeling like you
Speaker 3: getting tricked by some type of image or you met
Speaker 3: me when my hair was straight, or you met me
Speaker 3: when I this other thing, and you feel like I
Speaker 3: don't no longer look this way, And I feel like
Speaker 3: a lot of black trans women we gauge that too,
Speaker 3: Like it's this thing of we have to like constantly
Speaker 3: put the face on. We gotta do the full performance
Speaker 3: of femininity. We can't really always show up sweatpants, hair
Speaker 3: tat chilling with no makeup on, Like we can't do
Speaker 3: those types of things. Because even this interview, I was
Speaker 3: like so weird because I talk with my hands, but
Speaker 3: I took my nails off, and so I was like,
Speaker 3: I need to pop on into presto ones and like
Speaker 3: all these other things and then like my makeup. I
Speaker 3: do that for myself, like it's something I just love
Speaker 3: to do. But it's these things that I think a
Speaker 3: lot of us consider and I always recommend that documentary.
Speaker 3: And then d Smith, their partner is actually one of
Speaker 3: the old members from B five, and he did a
Speaker 3: video too that was like going around and it was
Speaker 3: viral and it was just think about like, it's important
Speaker 3: to talk about and normalize loving black trans women because
Speaker 3: when we do these things, it.
Speaker 2: Makes it safer for us.
Speaker 3: It really does, like having that co sign of just
Speaker 3: like this is normal, This is way more normal than
Speaker 3: people think it is, This is more common than people
Speaker 3: think it is. Is really really important. It overall adds
Speaker 3: to the safety for us. It adds to how community
Speaker 3: engages with us. It takes away this table nature of
Speaker 3: our existence. Because I always tell people, like, just me existing,
Speaker 3: it is political. It was already political as a black person,
Speaker 3: it's more political now as a woman, as a trans woman,
Speaker 3: it's just political because my existence is always discussed on
Speaker 3: the political spectrum, my rights, all these types of things.
Speaker 3: And I just tell people, do what makes you feel
Speaker 3: safe and comfortable. What's gonna be the thing that makes
Speaker 3: you feel like you can go to bed at night
Speaker 3: and not keep you up at night, make you not
Speaker 3: feel like someone's going to attack you because of who
Speaker 3: you are. I think you asked me earlier about out,
Speaker 3: like how do you gauge like who's fetishizing and who isn't?
Speaker 3: Typically the reason another reason why I stay away from
Speaker 3: the people that are fetishizing is because they're usually the
Speaker 3: people who will react in a very harmful way regarding
Speaker 3: your status or of who you are, your transness, and
Speaker 3: if other people find out, it can get really really
Speaker 3: harmful and dangerous, And so I need people who also
Speaker 3: got something to lose. They people who are not of
Speaker 3: that vein who I can go out in public with
Speaker 3: it can be documented. I'm texting of my friends like
Speaker 3: hey girl, I'm out with this person, just so you
Speaker 3: know they got my I'm in an improved child with
Speaker 3: my girlfriends and we they have like.
Speaker 2: My location and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: I think about like abusive relationships and we're partners, trying
Speaker 3: to isolate a person and when it comes to dating
Speaker 3: for me, but like also being aware because it used
Speaker 3: to be me and a lot of other trans women
Speaker 3: deal with this, there is that isolation where you can't
Speaker 3: really talk about the person that you're dating. You can't
Speaker 3: really disclose what's going on, even to your friend groups
Speaker 3: or your loved ones, and that type of isolation builds
Speaker 3: this perfect environment for them to be able to be
Speaker 3: abusive and feel like you don't have anyone to turn
Speaker 3: to about it, because there's also this guilt, I would say,
Speaker 3: of feeling like, why are you telling the tea of
Speaker 3: who you were seeing? And it's like it's also your tea.
Speaker 3: This was a us, Like you should be able to
Speaker 3: talk about the romantic encounters that you have, and I
Speaker 3: think a lot of the times we feel like, oh,
Speaker 3: we got to keep that private and this than that,
Speaker 3: because if someone finds out, then they're like, oh, the
Speaker 3: person was gay. But it's just like this person not
Speaker 3: even attracted to men, They're only attracted to women, and
Speaker 3: you're probably their first trans woman. Most of the time
Speaker 3: when I'm dating, I'm usually people's first time dating a
Speaker 3: trans woman. Now that is a whole other pressure of itself,
Speaker 3: because you're then making sure that everything goes well and
Speaker 3: you're like super in your head about every aspect of
Speaker 3: the dating because you're just like, they're gonna hold the
Speaker 3: entire experience up to the experience they have with me.
Speaker 3: But overall, I just tell people, you really got to
Speaker 3: listen to your gut. You really gotta like, it's about
Speaker 3: your safety at the end of the day, and I'm
Speaker 3: just like, it's disclosure is very much a personal decision.
Speaker 3: We discuss it like it's not, but it's a very
Speaker 3: subjective and personal decision.
Speaker 1: So what advice would you give to non trans partners
Speaker 1: who want to create safe, nurturing environments for their trans partner.
Speaker 3: When updated non trans people, what's really worked for me
Speaker 3: that's made me feel safe and secure is one knowing
Speaker 3: that they're usually in community with other queer people. They're
Speaker 3: in community with other trans and non binary people. They
Speaker 3: are cultured on some aspects of transnis. They may not
Speaker 3: be like an academic scholar on the subject matter, but
Speaker 3: they're not complete oblivious to things. They're always asking questions,
Speaker 3: but in a way to grow and learn, or they'll
Speaker 3: just take the initiative to kind of just research something themselves.
Speaker 3: And then it's like they do this thing. You're like, wait,
Speaker 3: how did you even.
Speaker 4: Know even know to do that? And it's like, okay,
Speaker 4: so when did their homework? I see you, and so
Speaker 4: I think it's important to do that. I mentioned the
Speaker 4: Reddit earlier, there were communities for some people that are
Speaker 4: interested in dating trans people.
Speaker 3: They are very specific ones. They're broad ones, just like
Speaker 3: dating trans people in general, there are very specific ones
Speaker 3: for male to female. There are very specific ones for
Speaker 3: female to male, from how to have sex with this person,
Speaker 3: what is pleasurable, what is not to how do I
Speaker 3: make them feel their gender affirmed constantly? How do I
Speaker 3: make sure I'm not offending them in this way or
Speaker 3: let them know that I'm not fetishizing them, I'm not
Speaker 3: a chaser, or people trying to figure out are they
Speaker 3: a chaser or not because they're like, well.
Speaker 2: I feel this way, but does that make me a chaser?
Speaker 2: Like I don't want to be a chaser.
Speaker 3: Like I've seen different communities like that on Reddit too,
Speaker 3: and so there's a lot of discussion for people who
Speaker 3: are interested in dating trans people, especially black trans women.
Speaker 3: But it's still very much in the shadows. And I
Speaker 3: always recommend that Cocomo City film because it's like one
Speaker 3: of the first times I've seen it kind of just
Speaker 3: like put in a platform that's like, we're not in
Speaker 3: the shadows anymore.
Speaker 2: We exist.
Speaker 3: We're part of the black community because we are black,
Speaker 3: and there are straight black men that love us too,
Speaker 3: and pretending like it's this crush quiet type of thing
Speaker 3: actually adds harm to us. But I always recommend those,
Speaker 3: even just for trans education in general. I have a
Speaker 3: one on one course. I get people that recommended mea
Speaker 3: hey media academic journalist that that's my little house. So
Speaker 3: film wise, it's Cocomo City and it's Disclosure Doc that
Speaker 3: is on Netflix, and then we see each other by
Speaker 3: my good friend and mentor, Javelle Anderson, which is a
Speaker 3: legacy of black and trans representation on TV and film
Speaker 3: and pop culture.
Speaker 2: And a newer book from.
Speaker 3: Roquel willis the Risk it takes to bloom on liberation
Speaker 3: in life, And that's like my one on one course
Speaker 3: for people to really get a glimpse of what it's
Speaker 3: like to be trans, but very specifically black in trans
Speaker 3: and a very black trans womanhood centric peak into what
Speaker 3: it is of the existence. And yeah, those are my
Speaker 3: recommendations one on one course crash course of just like huh,
Speaker 3: start there, like when everybody's like, you don't got to
Speaker 3: constantly ask me as a living encyclopedia, you can google.
Speaker 3: I'll give a few recks and those are my go
Speaker 3: to recommendations for people.
Speaker 1: Beautiful. I love that, we love a good resource list
Speaker 1: and things for people to check into for themselves. I
Speaker 1: appreciate you so Derek. I feel like there's so much
Speaker 1: more to share, but I do not want to keep
Speaker 1: you all day, So tell us where we can stay
Speaker 1: connected with you. What is your website as well as
Speaker 1: any social media channels you'd like to share?
Speaker 3: Everything is Derek coott. Even my website is d A
Speaker 3: r I C c Ott dot com. On my social
Speaker 3: media is if I'm on a platform, it's Derekcott d
Speaker 3: A r I c c O t T. That's the
Speaker 3: act for everything, and that's how you can find me perfect.
Speaker 1: We'll be sure to include it in the show notes.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending some time with us today.
Speaker 2: Of course, thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Derek was able to join us for
Speaker 1: this episode. To learn more about her and the work
Speaker 1: she's doing, be sure to visit the show notes at
Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three four six,
Speaker 1: and don't forget to text two of your girls right
Speaker 1: now and tell them to check out the episode. If
Speaker 1: you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure
Speaker 1: to visit our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot
Speaker 1: com slash directory. If you want to continue digging into
Speaker 1: this topic or just be in community with other sisters,
Speaker 1: come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.
Speaker 1: It's our cozy corner of the Internet design just for
Speaker 1: black women. You can join us at Community dot Therapy
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Frida Lucas,
Speaker 1: Alise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.
Speaker 1: Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.
Speaker 1: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all
Speaker 1: real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 2: What's