Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Harden Bradford, a
Speaker 1: licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to
Speaker 1: find a therapist in your area, visit our website at
Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you love
Speaker 1: listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not
Speaker 1: meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a
Speaker 1: licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for
Speaker 1: joining me for a special bonus episode of the Therapy
Speaker 1: for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
Speaker 1: after a worry from our sponsors. Earlier this week, we
Speaker 1: shed some light on the experience of dating as a
Speaker 1: transgender woman, and today we want to delve a little
Speaker 1: deeper into that conversation, this time from the lens of
Speaker 1: certified sex therapist Tia Evans. Tia has a private practice
Speaker 1: in which she holds space for people from all cultures
Speaker 1: and backgrounds. She holds a Master of Social Work from
Speaker 1: Fayeteville State University, a Master of education in Human Sexuality
Speaker 1: from Widner University and is a licensed clinical social worker
Speaker 1: in the state of North Carolina. During our conversation, we
Speaker 1: explored ways for a transgender person to identify signs of
Speaker 1: safety and a potential friend or partner, how to establish
Speaker 1: boundaries around intimacy with a new partner, and how cisgender
Speaker 1: individuals can best support their transgender place partners. If something
Speaker 1: resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with
Speaker 1: us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session
Speaker 1: or join us over in the sister Circle to talk
Speaker 1: more about the episode. You can join us at Community
Speaker 1: dot Therapy from blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today, Tire, of course,
Speaker 1: thank you for having me. Absolutely absolutely so. You are
Speaker 1: a licensed clinical social worker and a kink friendly sex therapist.
Speaker 1: Can you talk to us a little bit about what
Speaker 1: you do in the communities you serve?
Speaker 2: So my role is people come to me when they
Speaker 2: have issues in the relationships and their sex lives, questions
Speaker 2: about a gender, sexuality, all that fun.
Speaker 1: Stuff, got it? Got it? And what does it mean
Speaker 1: to be kink friendly?
Speaker 2: That means that I'm pretty well versed in things in
Speaker 2: the kink community. So like BDSM, anything that's unconventional I
Speaker 2: have a pretty good knowledge base of. And so I
Speaker 2: come into a place of the non judgmental. You can
Speaker 2: come ask your questions, you can ask your opinions, and
Speaker 2: we can run just hash things out that they may
Speaker 2: not feel comfortable doing in regular therapy.
Speaker 1: And so in a large part of your caseload and
Speaker 1: a lot of the work you do is also as
Speaker 1: a part of the trans community.
Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, a huge base.
Speaker 1: Yes, So I think it's important for us when we
Speaker 1: are having these kinds of conversations to make sure we
Speaker 1: have good definitions and that people are kind of operating
Speaker 1: from the same place. So I want to ask you
Speaker 1: a couple of words to see if you can give
Speaker 1: us a definition so that you know people have a
Speaker 1: better understanding. So what are we talking about when we
Speaker 1: say cis gender?
Speaker 2: So a cist gender person is a person that identifies
Speaker 2: with the gender that they were assigned at birth.
Speaker 1: Okay, and what about trans feminine?
Speaker 2: For somebody who identifies as transfeminine, that means that they
Speaker 2: have been assigned one particular gender that may have been
Speaker 2: assigned male as their gender. But they identify as female
Speaker 2: or they identify as being more or into feminine based things.
Speaker 1: And what about trans masculine.
Speaker 2: So then that's going to be the opposite of that.
Speaker 2: So that's a person who's tender, maybe a signed female
Speaker 2: at birth, but they identify as male or they are
Speaker 2: into masculine things or identify with things that are traditionally
Speaker 2: labelled as a masculine.
Speaker 1: So, Tia, you know, I know so much of like
Speaker 1: how we know about ourselves and how we are interested
Speaker 1: in dating and our dating habits are shaped by like
Speaker 1: our upbringing, right, And I know that for people in
Speaker 1: the trans community, they're often being raised by CIS people.
Speaker 1: So can you talk a little bit about how like
Speaker 1: that lack of representation impacts identity and dating choices.
Speaker 2: So when people aren't used to seeing how they would
Speaker 2: love to date or they are in clinent today being
Speaker 2: represented let's stay in the media or even in their
Speaker 2: own community, it makes them feel isolated or it makes
Speaker 2: them feel like what they're doing is and people tend
Speaker 2: to and if they're put into that box, they tend
Speaker 2: to kind of shut down and maybe go into themselves
Speaker 2: and they withdraw. You might see somebody end up being
Speaker 2: very anxious or depressed, or just seemingly not connected to
Speaker 2: society as a whole, maybe like even checked out.
Speaker 1: And you mentioned the media for a lot of people
Speaker 1: who are in morginalized communities, if you don't see yourself
Speaker 1: represented in your home or in your community, and you
Speaker 1: will turn to media, right, So, TV, film, books, those
Speaker 1: kinds of things. Can you talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: the impact that you have seen on the trans community
Speaker 1: from looking at depictions of trans life in the media.
Speaker 2: I think that when we see things that are in
Speaker 2: a positive light, then you see more of a whilely
Speaker 2: seeing my patients, more of happy, upbeat. But then when
Speaker 2: you see things in the media that might show trends
Speaker 2: people in a negative light, then I see them coming
Speaker 2: with more of being down themselves or maybe even questioning
Speaker 2: where they fit in society or in their own lives
Speaker 2: and their own community. So I think it definitely ebbs
Speaker 2: and flows with what you see on TV or on
Speaker 2: the radio, with how people who are a part of
Speaker 2: the community tend to reflect in the day to day.
Speaker 1: And to your earlier points. So, I recently had a
Speaker 1: chance to watch the Disclosure documentary on Netflix. Have you
Speaker 1: seen that I haven't seen it, Okay. So there was
Speaker 1: a lot in the documentary just about not having trans
Speaker 1: representation in the media, or if it was then it
Speaker 1: was always this thing that was like looked upon negatively
Speaker 1: or it was like a joke, right, Like a joke
Speaker 1: was made out of trans people's lives, and that the
Speaker 1: people in the documentary were talking about how that impacted
Speaker 1: their identity and like their self concept until they grew
Speaker 1: up and maybe met trans people in later life.
Speaker 2: I don't have to check that out. It sounds really good.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmmmm, Yeah, it definitely would be one. I think
Speaker 1: you'd appreciate. The other thing that they talked about as
Speaker 1: a part of the documentary was like having to unlearn
Speaker 1: so much of like the negative stereotypes that they saw
Speaker 1: about trans people in the media. Can you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about maybe what that has looked like with
Speaker 1: your clients, Like what kinds of things have they had
Speaker 1: to unlearned.
Speaker 2: Believe it or not, some people who identify as trans
Speaker 2: are in the community may have a bit of transphobia
Speaker 2: themselves just because of what they've seen or what's been
Speaker 2: spilled back into them. So part of what I do
Speaker 2: is kind of unpack what they've learned, and we decipher
Speaker 2: what is good to keep and what is not so
Speaker 2: good to keep, and I really get in there and
Speaker 2: discover what do they want to be, how do they
Speaker 2: want to represent themselves? So what does it mean to
Speaker 2: be authentic? And that's what comes across my desk a
Speaker 2: lot is how do I live authentically when the world
Speaker 2: doesn't want me to be present? And so part of
Speaker 2: that is really just sitting into that and maybe just
Speaker 2: defining what does it mean to be authentic? And how
Speaker 2: do we persevere and look past the negativity? How do
Speaker 2: we look past the stereotypes, and how do we get
Speaker 2: people to be seen and heard as it deserved to
Speaker 2: be seen and heard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I was gonna say, I would imagine that
Speaker 1: your job has become that much harder in recent years,
Speaker 1: right with all the additional like anti trans legislation that's
Speaker 1: being passed. Can you talk a little bit about how
Speaker 1: all of that has impacted your work and your clients.
Speaker 2: So I am in North Carolina and where's a lot
Speaker 2: of negative trans bills floating around right now, and some
Speaker 2: of the bigger ones are being targeted towards my little
Speaker 2: trans people. So my under eighteen people. And so that's
Speaker 2: where we see a lot of not just the patience,
Speaker 2: but the parents too try and decide or what we're
Speaker 2: gonna do because a lot of people are option to move.
Speaker 2: That's the biggest impact that's happening right now. Within this day,
Speaker 2: there's people making exit plans to leave the state, to
Speaker 2: seek refuge and places that are safer or places that
Speaker 2: are more welcoming. It's devastating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So when you talk about like sitting with people
Speaker 1: and helping them to kind of appreciate authentically who they are,
Speaker 1: what does that look like? What kinds of conversations are
Speaker 1: you having or exercises that might help with some of that.
Speaker 2: So I asked them to define who they are. If
Speaker 2: they have to describe themselves to anybody, how will they
Speaker 2: describe themselves? And then we'll go into well how does
Speaker 2: that look? How do you represent that adjective with the physical?
Speaker 2: How do you want to present? How do you want
Speaker 2: to look? What do you want to give to the world.
Speaker 2: That's pretty much how we start, and then I send
Speaker 2: them home, Well, this is what you need to work on.
Speaker 2: Here is how you can present and the way you
Speaker 2: want to present. And let's see what feels good for you,
Speaker 2: and let's see what doesn't feel good for you, and
Speaker 2: let's reshape it if it doesn't.
Speaker 1: Tea earlier, you mentioned that even people in the trans
Speaker 1: community themselves will sometimes experience transphobia, and that feels similar
Speaker 1: to you. Even black people experiencing anti blackness right and
Speaker 1: are having anti black kinds of thoughts. So what kinds
Speaker 1: of things do you do to help them unpack like
Speaker 1: some of their internalized transphobia.
Speaker 2: So I normalize people being able to present the way
Speaker 2: they want to present. So sometimes you see some trans
Speaker 2: people talking about how I want to make sure that
Speaker 2: I pass or what does it mean to be passable?
Speaker 2: And what does it mean to be able to blend in?
Speaker 2: And then there are some people in the community that
Speaker 2: just are free to look and feel how they want
Speaker 2: to feel, and that may not be mainstream, that may
Speaker 2: not be the norm, so to speak. And so I
Speaker 2: work with patients to normalize. You look how you want
Speaker 2: to look, You represent how you want to represent, and
Speaker 2: that doesn't make you any more or less of how
Speaker 2: you want to be seen or viewed. And how you
Speaker 2: look doesn't affect how the next person looks, and so
Speaker 2: less normalize your own style, your own authenticity, your own esthetic.
Speaker 1: Can you talk to you about any additional kinds of
Speaker 1: struggles that you see with maybe some of your black
Speaker 1: trans clients. Are there additional kinds of conversations, additional things
Speaker 1: to kind of work through as being a part of
Speaker 1: the black community.
Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely. The biggest thing I see is issues with
Speaker 2: the church and their spirituality and religion that intersects heavy.
Speaker 2: Especially a lot of the people who are in the
Speaker 2: trans community that come from a very heavily spiritual Christian
Speaker 2: base will often be conflicted on well, this is what
Speaker 2: my religion says, but this is how I feel. Or
Speaker 2: I can't go home because my grandmother, who is a
Speaker 2: deepness in church, or my father who's a pastor in
Speaker 2: the church, doesn't want me around because of how I
Speaker 2: look to them, and how the church might see my
Speaker 2: parents not even meet, but how I see my parents.
Speaker 2: So what it trickles down, that's what I see the
Speaker 2: most within the black and brown communities is how their
Speaker 2: religion crosses over into the identity.
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that tea, You know it makes
Speaker 1: me think about there's obviously then some grief to I
Speaker 1: would imagine process when maybe you have to let go
Speaker 1: of some of those relationships, either as parents or with
Speaker 1: a church. Can you talk a little bit about how
Speaker 1: you might help somebody process.
Speaker 2: That so that might even look like maybe a mini funeral,
Speaker 2: or what do you want to say to your family
Speaker 2: that you may not be able to say? If you
Speaker 2: want to write a letter, even if you send it
Speaker 2: or not, what do you want that letter to say
Speaker 2: as your goodbyes to whoever you have to let go,
Speaker 2: If it's the or if it's religion as a whole,
Speaker 2: what can you do to find peace with that within yourself?
Speaker 2: And what does that mean for you to maybe get
Speaker 2: your spiritual cut field in a different way. So we
Speaker 2: look up ways to process letting go, but looking forward
Speaker 2: to being able to be free. Is that sacrifice worth
Speaker 2: the freedom? And if it is, then we move forward.
Speaker 2: If it's not, well, what does that mean? How can
Speaker 2: you find those little pieces of peace in the struggle.
Speaker 1: Can you say more about the ceremony. I think that's
Speaker 1: often a very powerful kind of imagery for people to do,
Speaker 1: like these kind of funerals, or it kind of reminds
Speaker 1: me of like an empty chair technique. Can you say
Speaker 1: a little bit more about the ceremony, like would you
Speaker 1: encourage them to invite other people to be a witness
Speaker 1: to that? What does that look like?
Speaker 2: Only if they feel safe doing so. But usually it's
Speaker 2: something that we might even do in session where the
Speaker 2: person is maybe standing up and reading what their goodbyes
Speaker 2: could look like to the couch, which is again the
Speaker 2: empty chair method, or even just saying hey, this is
Speaker 2: who I used to be. I am memorialized and who
Speaker 2: I used to be, and I'm letting go of that
Speaker 2: so that the new week can be birthed. So it
Speaker 2: really is one of those they write out what they
Speaker 2: want to say. If they want to bring in our
Speaker 2: article of clothing or something that they want to leave behind,
Speaker 2: they're welcome to do that. Just something that memorializes who
Speaker 2: they were and maybe something to look forward to moving forward,
Speaker 2: even if it's like a new tube of lipstick or
Speaker 2: a new tie, just something to kind of complete the ceremony,
Speaker 2: if you will.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that more from our conversation after the break. So,
Speaker 1: you know, I think even within the LGBTQIE community there
Speaker 1: has often been even further marginalization for trans people as
Speaker 1: a part of that community and kind of being made
Speaker 1: to feel invisible. Can you talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: some of that backlash and supporting clients to find community
Speaker 1: even within the community that they may be feeling pushed
Speaker 1: out of.
Speaker 2: And I think the biggest part about that too is
Speaker 2: some people in the community see the tea in the
Speaker 2: acronym is more gender based versus sexuality based, and that's
Speaker 2: where a lot of intersection looks or a lot of
Speaker 2: them being ostracized looks like, oh, this is a tack
Speaker 2: on our sexuality, but they're folks on their gender, so
Speaker 2: they should stay over there, when really there's a lot
Speaker 2: of people who are trans that are very much steal
Speaker 2: lesbian or gay or participate in the acronym as well.
Speaker 2: So letting them know that they still belong, normalizing that
Speaker 2: your place is here. If you want to identify within
Speaker 2: this culture, then you have every right to do so,
Speaker 2: and nobody can take they're from you. I love to say,
Speaker 2: who gonna check you in my sessions? Because really and truly,
Speaker 2: who has the right to do that?
Speaker 1: Right right? I love that? And can you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about helping people in the trans community find
Speaker 1: community for themselves, because I think if you can't be
Speaker 1: a part of some of these larger communities. Sometimes that
Speaker 1: means you have to create it for yourself. So can
Speaker 1: you talk about supporting clients through that or with that?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? So what I do is I talk about, well,
Speaker 2: what does your support system look like now, and how
Speaker 2: many people aren't in supports who are also trans, and
Speaker 2: what does that look like? Would you like more trans friends?
Speaker 2: And we talk about ways to maybe find trans friends,
Speaker 2: ways to if their city has an organization that's dedicated
Speaker 2: to the trans community, I might direct them there, if
Speaker 2: there's resources onlines or even Facebook groups that seem safe.
Speaker 2: Just trying to encourage them to find their tribe and
Speaker 2: what speaks to them. Because and then because everybody's not
Speaker 2: going to accept everybody, and that's the unfortunate reality of
Speaker 2: the world. So my job is to get back to
Speaker 2: them and say, you find your people. Who do you
Speaker 2: want your people to be? Let's find your people. Let
Speaker 2: me help you find your people.
Speaker 1: We definitely talk about, you know, finding community and friendship
Speaker 1: here at TVG a lot. Can you talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about how people can assess whether somebody is actually
Speaker 1: a safe person to be in their circle.
Speaker 2: It looks like asking specific questions, maybe not necessarily outing
Speaker 2: themselves if they don't need to, but asking questions about
Speaker 2: how they feel about even just the lgbt QIA community
Speaker 2: as a whole. How do you feel about what's happening
Speaker 2: in politics? Maybe, oh, have you seen this show? What's
Speaker 2: your take on this show? Those little feeling questions to
Speaker 2: put those feelers out without out themselves they don't have to,
Speaker 2: that's where you start, and.
Speaker 1: I would imagine that's why, you know, finding like the
Speaker 1: Facebook groups and different kinds of communities where like you
Speaker 1: already know that there is some acceptance and hopefully affirmation,
Speaker 1: maybe feel like a better place to start then, you know,
Speaker 1: like random strangers. Oh correct, absolutely, yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 2: More so you want us to do the filling out
Speaker 2: in social media or insights that may be more public
Speaker 2: and less provas. We want to be selective regardless, it's
Speaker 2: easy to infiltrate these spaces sometimes. Yeah, that's a big
Speaker 2: part of being safe too, is really knowing where you're
Speaker 2: putting yourself out there and really being on your p's
Speaker 2: and q's.
Speaker 1: You're saying that makes me think, you know, we talked
Speaker 1: a little bit about like some of the additional challenges
Speaker 1: that black people in the trans community have and we
Speaker 1: know that some of the highest levels of violence happened
Speaker 1: to black trans women. Is there any safety planning that
Speaker 1: you do with clients or like bringing in additional agencies
Speaker 1: or resources to help support clients in that area.
Speaker 2: I like to ask them what are they doing to
Speaker 2: stay safe? Just straight up, Especially if I have people
Speaker 2: who are trying to day or are new today, they
Speaker 2: are wanting today, and I say, well, what's your exit plan?
Speaker 2: What's happened if you meet this stranger and it comes
Speaker 2: out in that moment and it gets a little heck
Speaker 2: that what are you going to do? Talk about maybe
Speaker 2: making sure that you're closer to the door versus the
Speaker 2: other person. Just I don't want to say basic safety
Speaker 2: book because really some things would just take for granted,
Speaker 2: like watching your surroundings, looking around, checking license plates of Nebee,
Speaker 2: just those little things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. And as you're talking about this, Tia,
Speaker 1: I'm wondering how that impacts like intimacy, because you're already
Speaker 1: going into these situations thinking like, Okay, what is my
Speaker 1: safety plan going to be?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: And I think most of us have to. I mean,
Speaker 1: we should be thinking about that because you just never
Speaker 1: know what it does feel like there's a particular kind
Speaker 1: of burden for folks in the trans community. So can
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about how that might impact
Speaker 1: intimacy or the ability to even settle into relationships when
Speaker 1: you're kind of always thinking about safety planning.
Speaker 2: I think that it takes a little longer for some
Speaker 2: just because the respector right and really making sure that
Speaker 2: they feel safe to even divulge their gender identity. I
Speaker 2: think that's a huge part of a huge part of
Speaker 2: it is actually when do I have this conversation with
Speaker 2: my partner or what does that conversation look like? And
Speaker 2: so those are the kind of things that we work
Speaker 2: through in session, where how do you want to disclose,
Speaker 2: how do you want to operate if that person maybe
Speaker 2: gets angry or that person might need more time to
Speaker 2: think about what they want to do, and normalize and
Speaker 2: give them space, to give their partner space because that
Speaker 2: could be apprehensive too that weight and gain wait and
Speaker 2: to see what the response is going to be and
Speaker 2: kind of normalize them. Well, these are your options, and
Speaker 2: what do these options look like if it falls to
Speaker 2: A to B or the C category.
Speaker 1: So what kinds of guidelines are conversations? Do you typically
Speaker 1: talk about with your clients around like when do you
Speaker 1: disclose this information or when is it necessary?
Speaker 2: Well, that's a big question, just asking them when they
Speaker 2: feel when it's necessary, because I can't be the judge
Speaker 2: of that. But it goes case by case scenario. It's
Speaker 2: usually around comfort level. How have you experienced this before?
Speaker 2: Have you had an opportunity to disclose a gender before?
Speaker 2: And what does that feel like? What are you gonna
Speaker 2: do differently this time or if you've never done it before,
Speaker 2: give me a sign that makes you feel safe, Tell
Speaker 2: me something that's gonna make you feel safe enough to
Speaker 2: disclose that or are you the type that you want
Speaker 2: to disclose off the top And if you do, are
Speaker 2: you willing to accept what happens or do you know
Speaker 2: what could happen if you disclose off the top your
Speaker 2: gender identity. So a lot of it is just planning
Speaker 2: and overplanning and going through scenarios and role playing and
Speaker 2: really hashing out the benefits and consequences of these particular
Speaker 2: actions and then coming behind with the safety plan on
Speaker 2: top of it. It's a lot of preparation in the
Speaker 2: front end.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, And I'm wondering to ya if this
Speaker 1: feels like a pie in the sky kind of questioning,
Speaker 1: But it feels like we are asking people from this
Speaker 1: marginalized group to do like all of this thinking, like
Speaker 1: what kinds of conversations and things could we be having
Speaker 1: as people who are not members of the trans community
Speaker 1: so that this burden is not so heavy for people
Speaker 1: in the trans community.
Speaker 2: I think it starts about just having conversations in general
Speaker 2: and correcting people or correcting friends or peers if the
Speaker 2: wrong pronouns are being used or this negative talk comes along.
Speaker 2: Somebody has to be the change agent and say, hey,
Speaker 2: it's not okay to talk about this community or talk
Speaker 2: about this person in this way. Because we're all humans,
Speaker 2: we have the right to live. And how is one
Speaker 2: person's decision directly affecting you if that's not somebody that
Speaker 2: you have in your traditional space and your space in general.
Speaker 2: So just breaking down the stereotypes and checking people out
Speaker 2: the door and being prepared to maybe lose some friends
Speaker 2: or lose some loved ones behind it to be that
Speaker 2: change agent.
Speaker 1: So you gave us some great information around trying to
Speaker 1: assess whether somebody is trustworthy as a friend. Are there
Speaker 1: additional kinds of questions or things that people should be
Speaker 1: looking out for in terms of like being a potential
Speaker 1: partner or somebody to date, in terms of whether they
Speaker 1: are trustworthy.
Speaker 2: I think that kind of parallels. I think once you
Speaker 2: get past the safetiness and a friend, it kind of
Speaker 2: transpires into the next section. And especially at that point,
Speaker 2: if they feel safe enough to disclose, maybe asking somebody
Speaker 2: if they dated a trans person before and what that
Speaker 2: looked like for them and how they felt about it,
Speaker 2: and really seeing what somebody's current knowledge is within dating
Speaker 2: in the community.
Speaker 1: So for trans people who maybe are feeling like some
Speaker 1: societal pressure to disclose, right because you already said that's
Speaker 1: up to the person's kind of individual comfort. So let's
Speaker 1: say people are listening to our conversation now and they
Speaker 1: are feeling like this pressure to disclose. What kinds of
Speaker 1: things might you tell them, or what kinds of questions
Speaker 1: might they want to ask themselves?
Speaker 2: Are you ready? Are you really ready to disclose or
Speaker 2: you just feel like you need to just because? And
Speaker 2: if it's just because, what's stopping you from waiting another
Speaker 2: day or waiting the nextra week. For those who feel
Speaker 2: that they are ready, that they do want to disclose, well,
Speaker 2: what does it feel like? What are you feeling currently?
Speaker 2: What's your reason for wanting to disclose? How do you
Speaker 2: think you're going to feel after you do disclose? And
Speaker 2: if you feel like disclosing, try it with a very
Speaker 2: trusted friend first and go from there. If you already
Speaker 2: have your tribe and you've already disclosed the people in
Speaker 2: your tribe, do you need somebody there with you to
Speaker 2: support you as you disclose? And if you do, that's
Speaker 2: okay too. It's nothing wrong with having a support person
Speaker 2: present with you when you need to have these difficult
Speaker 2: conversations or conversations where you don't quite know how the
Speaker 2: ending is going to be. And then also ask yourself, well,
Speaker 2: once the cat's out the bag, I can't put the
Speaker 2: cat back in the bag. So what is life going
Speaker 2: to look like from me?
Speaker 1: Me?
Speaker 2: Or how do I want my life to look once
Speaker 2: I have disclosed? It's a lot of soul searching.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would imagine too, like what kinds of support
Speaker 1: is going to be there after I disclosed? Right? Like
Speaker 1: what kinds of communities might I want to be able
Speaker 1: to be a part of? More from our conversation after
Speaker 1: the break, so it sounds like people are using therapy
Speaker 1: for lots of different reasons. Especially you know in the
Speaker 1: work that you're doing, what are some of the conversations
Speaker 1: or situations that maybe have come up for people like
Speaker 1: when they started dating, that they didn't even think about that.
Speaker 1: Maybe you have tried to or helped a client work
Speaker 1: through labels.
Speaker 2: I think labels are a big thing, especially if somebody
Speaker 2: is navigating dating a person in the community that may
Speaker 2: not have even been in the community when they first
Speaker 2: started dating. As a common topic that I work with
Speaker 2: see is well what does that mean for you? Now?
Speaker 2: Am I now gay and my now a lesbian? What
Speaker 2: does this mean for me? And I try to take
Speaker 2: a step back and say, well, you don't have to
Speaker 2: jump the gun so fast. You don't have to put
Speaker 2: any label on yourself that you don't want to identify with.
Speaker 2: What do you see as a partner, who do you
Speaker 2: want as a partner? And what does dating for you
Speaker 2: mean or look like? And as far as intimacy goes,
Speaker 2: there's levels to it, right, So who says that you
Speaker 2: have to do everything that you feel like should be done.
Speaker 2: Just do what feels natural for you and let your
Speaker 2: instincts take you there. I find a lot of people
Speaker 2: in the community, they don't necessarily change their sexual identity, right,
Speaker 2: So it looks like, well, how do you want to date?
Speaker 2: Do you want to be a pursuer? Now? Do you
Speaker 2: want to be pursued? What's your style or what do
Speaker 2: you think your style is going to look like? If
Speaker 2: you're trying to navigate the dating field as a new person,
Speaker 2: how do you want to present yourself? How do you
Speaker 2: want to be treated? What do you have to give
Speaker 2: the world, and what do you want the world to
Speaker 2: give you? As you're navigating dating, just really looking at
Speaker 2: the who do you see as a potential partner? Who
Speaker 2: do you want as a partner, and how can we
Speaker 2: get that for you? How can we obtain that for you?
Speaker 2: I think those are the biggest things that come across.
Speaker 2: And then also well, how do I date? How am
Speaker 2: I supposed to dress for this first day? Or am
Speaker 2: I supposed to be the one to open the door now?
Speaker 2: Or do I wait to have the door open for me?
Speaker 2: Just these little nuances that we work through.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and something else that has come up for us
Speaker 1: I think in the community recently is like there's a
Speaker 1: lot of anxiety about like the first time you're going
Speaker 1: to be physical with somebody, and I would imagine that
Speaker 1: is the case here too. Can you talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about how do you prepare for your first time?
Speaker 1: Like what kinds of conversations should you be having, what
Speaker 1: kinds of things can be helpful to kind of manage
Speaker 1: anxiety around your first time?
Speaker 2: The biggest thing is boundaries. What are your boundaries? What
Speaker 2: are you willing to do, what are you not willing
Speaker 2: to do? How are you willing to be touched? And
Speaker 2: how do you want to touch others? What does consent
Speaker 2: look like? How do you withdraw consent if need be?
Speaker 2: Just again, I hate to say the word basic, but
Speaker 2: these things that we don't think about now as adults
Speaker 2: because maybe if we've navigated these as young adults, but
Speaker 2: it's kind of like, well, how do you want your
Speaker 2: body to be perceived or how do you want to
Speaker 2: use your body in a sexual manner or at an
Speaker 2: intimate level with your partner, And how do you want
Speaker 2: to have these conversations about body parts or how do
Speaker 2: you want to have this conversation about what your body
Speaker 2: may have looked like or how bodies may have changed
Speaker 2: over time, and how does that affect you when you
Speaker 2: look in the mirror, what do you see? Do you
Speaker 2: feel sexy?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: How can we get you to feel sexy? What do
Speaker 2: you need to feel better about yourself or better about
Speaker 2: what you see when you look in the mirror, because
Speaker 2: that's where it really istess arts.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned the term that I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people may not be familiar with, Tia, withdrawing consent.
Speaker 1: So can you talk a little bit more about what
Speaker 1: that means? And like, how would you even withdraw consent?
Speaker 2: So with drawing consent just means that you want to
Speaker 2: stop whatever activity is happening. So that looks like saying
Speaker 2: stop or no, or I think we should shade this
Speaker 2: for a later date, or I thought I was ready
Speaker 2: for I don't think I'm ready now. So anytime you
Speaker 2: might have said Okay, I do want to do this activity,
Speaker 2: but then you change your mind later, its withdrawing consent.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people don't know that
Speaker 1: even if you have done something before, you can still
Speaker 1: withdraw consent and say I don't want to do that again.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So you mentioned something Tia that I wanted to
Speaker 1: follow up on. You talked about a lot of these
Speaker 1: conversations actually need to happen before anybody gets nikeked. Right,
Speaker 1: So all these conversations around boundaries, how would you introduce
Speaker 1: this conversation with a potential partner.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of it is a natural progression.
Speaker 2: So it may happen with that first kiss, so that
Speaker 2: first makeout session, or when things start to feel like
Speaker 2: they're getting hot and heavy, and it starts with somebody's saying,
Speaker 2: let's really talk about this. What are our expectations and
Speaker 2: what does it look like for me to say I'm ready?
Speaker 2: What does it look like for me to say I
Speaker 2: may not have had sex this way before, but I'm
Speaker 2: willing to try. And it's something really special about being vulnerable,
Speaker 2: And all of this is assessing somebody's vulnerability level and
Speaker 2: what are they willing to do, what are they willing
Speaker 2: to talk about? And again, if they're not ready, maybe
Speaker 2: let's take a step back and do that at a
Speaker 2: later date. Let's just focus on building our mental intimacy
Speaker 2: or our romantic intimacy and not just straight sexual intimacy.
Speaker 1: So so much of dating today, when you've already talked
Speaker 1: about this a little bit, but so much of dating
Speaker 1: today is happening online, right, so we know you've already
Speaker 1: mentioned that people can easily infiltrate spaces. So what kinds
Speaker 1: of conversations are What kinds of suggestions would you give
Speaker 1: to people around kW to navigate online dating to defend
Speaker 1: against transphorb me as much as possible. What kinds of
Speaker 1: suggestions would you have there.
Speaker 2: Trust your instincts, trust your gut, let somebody know if
Speaker 2: you're going on a first date, let somebody know your
Speaker 2: surroundings of what's happening around you. And as far as
Speaker 2: trying to select a partner or you know, read through
Speaker 2: who could be a potential is just look for those keywords,
Speaker 2: look for how that person is talking about trans people,
Speaker 2: or look about how that person is talking about people
Speaker 2: in the community as a whole, and just be alert.
Speaker 2: Ask questions. There's nothing wrong with too many questions. And
Speaker 2: then for somebody who their style they prefer to disclose
Speaker 2: off the top, be okay with the backlash, be okay
Speaker 2: or normalizing or not taking that personal that person doesn't
Speaker 2: want to continue, and know when to take a break.
Speaker 2: If are you're seeing on these Dayton profiles is transphobia?
Speaker 2: Of are you've seen is negative outlook on the internet,
Speaker 2: or social media. Just cut the computer off for a
Speaker 2: little bit, take some time. It's okay to come back
Speaker 2: to that later day. You don't have to digest this
Speaker 2: all day every day. It's already waiting out there for
Speaker 2: you anyway. So you take your time and you take
Speaker 2: a step back from everything from Dayton peruse and social media.
Speaker 2: Stick to your support system and ask for help if
Speaker 2: you need help.
Speaker 1: So you know. Another first that I think can bring
Speaker 1: up a lot of anxiety for people is meeting a
Speaker 1: partner's family for the first time. Right and again, I
Speaker 1: would imagine that this can be, you know, an additional
Speaker 1: level of stress for a trans person. Can you talk
Speaker 1: about what kinds of things should the non trans partner
Speaker 1: maybe do to prepare their family, Like, what kinds of
Speaker 1: conversations should be happening to make sure this is an
Speaker 1: affirming kind of opportunity for the person.
Speaker 2: For the non trans person bringing their trans partner into
Speaker 2: their family, it starts with again boundaries talking to their famils. Ka, Okay,
Speaker 2: we're not gonna talk about this, We're not gonna bring
Speaker 2: this particular subject up. We're gonna let that person and
Speaker 2: they share pronouns. This is their pronouns. Is the pronouns
Speaker 2: that we're using. If somebody uses an incorrect pronoun, I
Speaker 2: expect you to either correct yourself or be prepared to
Speaker 2: be corrected. And just setting those firm boundaries that this
Speaker 2: is not gonna fly. This is the person that I'm
Speaker 2: choosing to be with, and if that can be accepted,
Speaker 2: then maybe we can't have dinner on Sunday. It looks
Speaker 2: like being very firm in their support and then their
Speaker 2: affirmation of their partner.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I would imagine that there are again some
Speaker 1: conversations that need to happen with the partner even before
Speaker 1: you meet the family, right around what kinds of things
Speaker 1: feel comfortable? What kinds of things don't feel comfortable?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so then you're definitely gonna have that conversation with
Speaker 2: your partner about, well, okay, what are your boundaries with
Speaker 2: my family or what kind of things do I need
Speaker 2: to look out for if you're feeling uncomfortable? What kind
Speaker 2: of support do you need if you're feeling uncomfortable, and
Speaker 2: what's our exep plain and if we need to leave,
Speaker 2: we can leave and remind that partner that they don't
Speaker 2: have to be in a space that they're uncomfortable being
Speaker 2: in and if any kind of discomfort is there, we're
Speaker 2: gonna remove ourselves. And those kind of things can be
Speaker 2: happening way before the meeting, in the car on the
Speaker 2: way to the meeting, as far as reaffirming that is
Speaker 2: going to be okay, I'm here, letting your partner know
Speaker 2: that you are there for them, This is just the
Speaker 2: next station in your relationship and that you're here.
Speaker 1: So you talked earlier Tia about the importance of media
Speaker 1: and like solid positive depictions of trans people. Can you
Speaker 1: point to any like shows or films or things that
Speaker 1: you've seen recently that you think have done a good
Speaker 1: job of really presenting trans people.
Speaker 2: So I really love POSS and I know it's not
Speaker 2: on anymore, but I just recently rewrited the series, and
Speaker 2: I think a lot of that is very very affirming
Speaker 2: to see people in the community even that far, even
Speaker 2: it's not that far, but you know, talking about the
Speaker 2: eighties and early nineties, the depictions of the trans population
Speaker 2: there is really where I pull from the most. I
Speaker 2: see a lot of people on social media as far
Speaker 2: as like TikTok is Concerned or even Facebook coming out
Speaker 2: more and sharing their stories and sharing their journeys, and
Speaker 2: that's usually where I direct a lot of my patients too,
Speaker 2: if they're looking for a more positive light or more
Speaker 2: of how do I see myself on the screen, So
Speaker 2: a lot of me is showing them social media.
Speaker 1: So you are also working on a workbook, Tia, tell
Speaker 1: us more about your work wook and what your plans are,
Speaker 1: your hopes are for the work.
Speaker 2: So it's a work in progress. It is about intimacy.
Speaker 2: How to build intimacy with your partner or partners if
Speaker 2: you are in nom monogamous relationships, and what that looks
Speaker 2: like from a physical aspect, from a romantic aspect, en
Speaker 2: fron mental aspect, and so it's just about those little
Speaker 2: things to get your intimacy back to where there it
Speaker 2: was or better than what it was beforehand. People are
Speaker 2: looking to pull that spark back, all right.
Speaker 1: So let us know where we can stay posted so
Speaker 1: that we know when the workbook drops. What is your
Speaker 1: website as well as any social media channels you'd like
Speaker 1: to share.
Speaker 2: So my website is Beth change hky dot com. You
Speaker 2: can find me on Instagram at t the Sex Therapist,
Speaker 2: no Ian sex. Because social media they will pull you.
Speaker 2: Also on Facebook, as Ta Evans sexuality and relationship therapist,
Speaker 2: I believe is what it is currently. And then my
Speaker 2: brick and mortar practice is based out of Hickory, North Carolina,
Speaker 2: and it's called The Change within the Counseling Center Perfect.
Speaker 1: We'll be sure to include all of that in the
Speaker 1: show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time
Speaker 1: with us today, Tya, absolutely, I'm so glad Tia was
Speaker 1: able to join us and share her expertise for this conversation.
Speaker 1: To learn more about her and her work, be sure
Speaker 1: to visit the show notes at Therapy from Black Girl
Speaker 1: slash trans Dating, and don't forget to textas episode to
Speaker 1: two of your girls right now and encourage them to
Speaker 1: check it out. If you're looking for a therapist in
Speaker 1: your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy for
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want to
Speaker 1: continue digging into this topic or just be in community
Speaker 1: with other sisters, come on over and join us in
Speaker 1: the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet
Speaker 1: designed just for black women. You can join us at
Speaker 1: community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was
Speaker 1: produced by Frida Lucas Elise Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing
Speaker 1: was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for
Speaker 1: joining me for this bonus episode. We'll be back with
Speaker 1: our regular episode next week. Take good care, what's