Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. I'm Tracey V.
Speaker 2: Wilson and I'm Holly Frye. We spent this.
Speaker 1: Entire week talking about Natalie Clifford Barney.
Speaker 2: We sure did.
Speaker 1: I kind of feel like she would be happy that
Speaker 1: somebody spent a week talking about her.
Speaker 2: Definitely, I really did.
Speaker 1: Like I had read a whole bunch of different sources,
Speaker 1: and I then like I read the book that we
Speaker 1: mentioned a couple of times, and I had not taken
Speaker 1: notes that felt to me particularly in depth, Like there
Speaker 1: was a lot of stuff that I sort of summarized
Speaker 1: generally of like then she was back and forth between
Speaker 1: the United States and Europe, or like the timeline would
Speaker 1: just skip ahead by six or seven years. And then
Speaker 1: I like got to the end of my note taking.
Speaker 1: And I said this in the episode, but like I
Speaker 1: was like, well, okay, I have a whole episode of notes,
Speaker 1: Like this episode, this notes document is an episode word
Speaker 1: count And I initially was going to try to get
Speaker 1: it to be one part because I just felt like
Speaker 1: this was very similar to the two parter on Collette
Speaker 1: from a year ago, and I don't know, I'm always
Speaker 1: trying to make sure we have a variety and the
Speaker 1: things that we talk about, and I was like, does
Speaker 1: this feel like Collette Version two point zero? And then
Speaker 1: as I got into it, I was like, I can't
Speaker 1: figure out what to cut out. I have a couple
Speaker 1: things in this little behind the scenes notes that we
Speaker 1: did not hurt out.
Speaker 2: One is that.
Speaker 1: When Natalie's father proposed to her mother, apparently he was
Speaker 1: so awkward about it that she didn't realize what was happening,
Speaker 1: and like he made this really convoluted statement that was
Speaker 1: something like, I don't have a silver platter to offer you,
Speaker 1: so I offer this with two bare hands. And he
Speaker 1: hadn't really said what he was offering, but like, to me,
Speaker 1: I can see how that would be a marriage proposal,
Speaker 1: because I've read a lot of Jane Austen and she
Speaker 1: was trying to put to be polite and said something like, well,
Speaker 1: I accept it with two bare hands, and then he
Speaker 1: was all excited and she was like, what why this happened?
Speaker 2: What just happened.
Speaker 1: Also, one of the big dramatic things that happened when
Speaker 1: Natalie and her sister was at boarding school was that
Speaker 1: one night someone sneaked into the you know, the bed
Speaker 1: of another student and cut off her long braid of
Speaker 1: her hair. Oh, and like this definitely seemed like it
Speaker 1: could have been some kind of deeply petty children drama,
Speaker 1: right right, somebody got revenge on what somebody else did
Speaker 1: by going to cut off their braid in the middle
Speaker 1: of the night. However, later on, they hired one of
Speaker 1: the teachers from this school as their tutor and like
Speaker 1: brought her back I don't remember it was like back
Speaker 1: to the United States or to some of their traveling,
Speaker 1: but they hired this like favorite teacher from the school
Speaker 1: to be their tutor. And they woke up in the
Speaker 1: middle of the night and this tutor was sleepwalking with
Speaker 1: a pair of scissors while asleep, cutting apart one of
Speaker 1: Alice's hats. And they were like, this sleepwalking teacher cut
Speaker 1: off the braid.
Speaker 2: It wasn't children set down or doing crafts in or sleep.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then they fired her because that did not
Speaker 1: seem safe. A couple while while doing research, one of
Speaker 1: the places that I look for articles on stuff is
Speaker 1: at ebsco, and ebsco has little categories that you can
Speaker 1: read to see as this you know something that is
Speaker 1: subject matter that is what I'm actually looking for. And
Speaker 1: one of the articles on Natalie Clifford Barney had the
Speaker 1: following categories listed in EBSCO, which is made more hilarious
Speaker 1: because all of these that are two words, the first
Speaker 1: word is in all capital letters, which just makes it
Speaker 1: much more funny to me. So these were art patronage,
Speaker 1: rich people, art collecting, and peasants. And I was like,
Speaker 1: I feel like this really sums up the tenor of
Speaker 1: so much of her life, Like so much of it
Speaker 1: was just about rich people doing rich people stuff. Yes,
Speaker 1: a couple of sort of more recent developments like we're.
Speaker 2: All gonna wear Greek grobes and sand.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're just gonna live our life in the manner
Speaker 1: of ancient Greeks as we have sort of imagined that
Speaker 1: to have been. One of Natalie Clifford Barney's novels was
Speaker 1: published in English for the first time just recently in
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. I have not read this novel. It is
Speaker 1: called Her Woman Lovers or The Third Woman. It is
Speaker 1: a thinly veiled autobiography that is about her relationships with
Speaker 1: Leanne de Pougee and another woman named Mimi Franchetti, and
Speaker 1: we did not even mention Mimi Franchetti in the episode
Speaker 1: at all. But Natalie had a relationship with each of
Speaker 1: these two women, and then the two of them then
Speaker 1: had a relationship with each other. And this I think
Speaker 1: this novel has been reviewed pretty well.
Speaker 2: I have not read it.
Speaker 1: The fact that it's only just become available in English
Speaker 1: was pretty interesting to me. Also, the first historical marker
Speaker 1: in Ohio where related to LGBTQ history was erected in
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine and it is in Dayton, Ohio,
Speaker 1: birthplace of Natalie Clifford Barney, and it is a Natalie
Speaker 1: Clifford Barney historical worker. Me. So yeah, man, she was
Speaker 1: such a mass, like such a mass she was. Her
Speaker 1: romantic life is like way too complicated for me.
Speaker 2: I couldn't.
Speaker 1: I got very tired.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I don't. I mean, I'm boring, So I
Speaker 2: just can't.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine wanting to make my life that complicated. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like her whole thing about I'm lazy in friendships. If
Speaker 1: I'm your friend, I'm your friend forever. I'm like, then,
Speaker 1: why do you want to complicate your life in every
Speaker 1: other possible Well?
Speaker 2: Yeah, why?
Speaker 1: Maybe she does have the energy to like end friendships
Speaker 1: because she's so busy juggling a bunch of people her own,
Speaker 1: probably in some cases unacknowledged jealousy of other people, Like no,
Speaker 1: wonder you didn't have the heart to ever in the friendship.
Speaker 2: You didn't have any energy, you were tired.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she, Uh, there were when I also, while I
Speaker 1: love I love that sentiment a whole lot, there were
Speaker 1: also times that the way she treated other people in
Speaker 1: her life, I'm like, that's not what friends do, Natalie, Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like when when your friend who you've known for fifteen
Speaker 1: years comes to you and says, this is the man
Speaker 1: I'm marrying. Uh, you don't be like that guy's ridiculous
Speaker 1: and I hate his sandals and I hate his poetry,
Speaker 1: and I think you should get him to leave. Like,
Speaker 1: that's that's not what friends do. No, that's like what
Speaker 1: friends who are thirteen might do. Maybe, like hopefully no
Speaker 1: one's coming to you and saying you're getting married to
Speaker 1: a dude at thirteen, but you know, like just that
Speaker 1: kind of petty I don't like that boy you're with. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but then when you're an adult person with adult friends
Speaker 1: making adult decisions, right, it's not really your place. The
Speaker 1: people I know who have been in polyamorous relationships that
Speaker 1: have worked have had just so much communication among themselves
Speaker 1: and so much clear statement of what the boundaries are
Speaker 1: and what the expectations are and all of that, and like,
Speaker 1: that really does not seem to be how for the
Speaker 1: most part, Natalie Clifford Barney was approaching her life, it
Speaker 1: was like she had this idea in her mind of
Speaker 1: I can just love everybody and love is great, and
Speaker 1: I will share love with everybody and it will be
Speaker 1: awesome and nobody will be jealous and nobody will have
Speaker 1: drama because love is great and we should share love
Speaker 1: with everybody. And then she would get into these situations
Speaker 1: where she was like, well, I don't like that you're
Speaker 1: a courtisan and you're having male clients. I'm going to
Speaker 1: try to rescue you you with money and leanda because
Speaker 1: you would be like, no, you're not, and also that's offensive,
Speaker 1: and then there would just be a big drama about it.
Speaker 1: And it was like She's just the way she envisioned
Speaker 1: these things in her mind was not how it worked out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: love is great, so long as it follows all of
Speaker 1: the unwritten rules about it. I have in my head
Speaker 1: and heart.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: As a complete jump aside. Okay, and it made me laugh,
Speaker 1: and I have said it on the show before, but
Speaker 1: you mentioning that the first LGBTQIA historical marker yeah in
Speaker 1: Ohio was in two thousand and nine. We also mentioned
Speaker 1: how cross dressing was outlawed in Paris, and I was like,
Speaker 1: it still was when that marker went up. It wasn't
Speaker 1: until twenty thirteen that that was officially stricken from the books, right,
Speaker 1: although there had been provisions over the years for things
Speaker 1: like when bicycling, when blah blah blah, and a woman
Speaker 1: could ask permission of the government if she had some
Speaker 1: sort of extenuating circumstances in which she could only wear
Speaker 1: pants to do something she had to do.
Speaker 2: But that still makes me giggle.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: She seems to have been so often oblivious, like the
Speaker 1: fact that she was so wealthy meant that she just
Speaker 1: wasn't aware of a lot of things, like we didn't
Speaker 1: talk about the Dreyfus affair at all, Like it's relevant
Speaker 1: to the fact that, like some of her writing during
Speaker 1: World War Two and even before was antisemitic. And to
Speaker 1: be clear, when I say anti Semitic here, I mean
Speaker 1: stereotypical epigrams about like people appearance, not like calling for
Speaker 1: anybody's extermination like that. That's not saying either of those
Speaker 1: things is good, but like we're talking about writing things
Speaker 1: that were sort of insensitive at best, not like calling
Speaker 1: for harm to come to people. But like does it
Speaker 1: doesn't appear that she was even really aware of the
Speaker 1: Dreyfus affair happening. She would have been fairly young still
Speaker 1: when all of that happened, but it was such an
Speaker 1: enormous cultural and political schism in France. She just doesn't
Speaker 1: seem to have fully like grasped the Great Depression being
Speaker 1: a thing. Doesn't seem to have like really had a
Speaker 1: sense of like uh, I mean the fact that she
Speaker 1: was like, oh, well, I'll just go to Italy and
Speaker 1: I'll stay in Florence, Nate, Like that would have been
Speaker 1: at the most, like a few weeks before Italy entered
Speaker 1: the war, that she made that decision, and like the
Speaker 1: fact that she thought that was a good idea, just
Speaker 1: just like she just she was so protected by having
Speaker 1: so much money and not caring what other people thought
Speaker 1: of her in terms of her sexuality, like and not
Speaker 1: having to care because she had so much money just
Speaker 1: let her be able to just have no, no sense
Speaker 1: of some of what was going on in the world.
Speaker 2: Oh the privilege.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is interesting in that you know, she's at
Speaker 1: that fascinating intersection where her privilege enabled her to be
Speaker 1: a flag bearer for some things while just like ignoring
Speaker 1: all the other stuff.
Speaker 2: She didn't want to get involved.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like.
Speaker 2: Related, you can't just like courting off one part of it.
Speaker 1: While I think she was such a mess in so
Speaker 1: many ways, and I definitely do not love the fascist
Speaker 1: support and anti semitism, Like I'm not condoning that at all,
Speaker 1: But what she was trying to do with being like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm publicly living my life as a lesbian, and I'm
Speaker 1: making my home a safe place for other lesbians. Like
Speaker 1: that part I love and the reason that I wanted
Speaker 1: to read that passage from the Well of Loneliness even
Speaker 1: though it was from a novel and from a fictionalized
Speaker 1: depiction of her, that's what she was doing, Like she
Speaker 1: was making this place where people who were marginalized could
Speaker 1: like come and just be themselves. Obviously not everybody could
Speaker 1: come and just be themselves because you know, she and
Speaker 1: some of her friends were really gripey about what Radcliffe
Speaker 1: Paul had on. But I was like, come and be yourself,
Speaker 1: but don't wear what you are if it's not what
Speaker 1: I like. And also don't drink or do drugs. That
Speaker 1: was also a big thing too. But yeah, like, I
Speaker 1: feel like that part of it was really important and
Speaker 1: something that I admire about her, even as so many
Speaker 1: of the other things about it, I'm like, nah, I
Speaker 1: don't like that part, but at all, it's a different
Speaker 1: iteration of the thing we come across all the time
Speaker 1: in history of like people are a mix.
Speaker 2: Of good and bad. Yeah, and you are complicated.
Speaker 1: It's almost impossible to say, like, this person was a hero,
Speaker 1: this person.
Speaker 2: Was a monster. Like they all have nuance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, hers is a different flavor maybe of combination than
Speaker 1: we've often encountered. Yeah, but it's still the same the
Speaker 1: same thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I'm glad that the Marie Lawrence Exhibits finally moved Natalie
Speaker 1: Clifford Barney up to the top of the list, because really,
Speaker 1: every single time her name has come up, I've been like,
Speaker 1: we got to do an episode on her one day,
Speaker 1: and that exhibit is over now sadly so people cannot
Speaker 1: go to it. I really found it wonderful, though. I
Speaker 1: took the train there because even though it takes much
Speaker 1: longer to get from Boston to Philadelphia on the train
Speaker 1: than on a plane, the train is a way more
Speaker 1: chill and comfortable experience. They did start calling for snow
Speaker 1: like three day three or four days before I was
Speaker 1: supposed to leave, and then they suddenly were calling for
Speaker 1: a much greater amount of snow after I was already
Speaker 1: on the way and could not do anything about it.
Speaker 1: And I was like, well, if I get stuck in Philadelphia,
Speaker 1: I'm stuck in Philadelphia.
Speaker 2: Enjoy the snow.
Speaker 1: Yeah. By the time it was actually time to go home,
Speaker 1: it seemed like if I were going to get stuck somewhere,
Speaker 1: it was probably gonna be New Yorker Rhode Island, because
Speaker 1: it was really like Providence, where the weather suddenly got
Speaker 1: a lot worse. Right, But it was fine. I got
Speaker 1: home fine, Everything was fine. I did wind up getting
Speaker 1: the final leg of getting home did take a lot
Speaker 1: longer because the roads were bad enough that I wanted
Speaker 1: to wait on commuter rail instead of trying to get
Speaker 1: a car to drive me. The rest of the way,
Speaker 1: and then I got a cold that is still not
Speaker 1: one hundred percent better, but it's okay.
Speaker 2: I loved that exhibit a whole lot.
Speaker 1: If you are into Marine Lawrencean's artwork, there's of course
Speaker 1: an exhibition catalog that a person can purchase. I also
Speaker 1: bought a scarf with some of her artwork on it.
Speaker 1: So hope everybody is having a good week, and I
Speaker 1: hope whatever's happening for your weekend is going to be great.
Speaker 1: We will be back with a Saturday Classic tomorrow and
Speaker 1: something brand new on Monday. Stuff Missed in History Class
Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
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