Speaker 1: Call it violence if you like. Such violence is pleasing
Speaker 1: to the fair. They often wish, through compulsion, to grant
Speaker 1: what they are delighted to grant. Whatever fair one has
Speaker 1: been despoiled by the sudden violence of passion, she is
Speaker 1: delighted at it, and the chief is as good as
Speaker 1: a godsend. But she who when she might have been
Speaker 1: carried by storm, has escaped untouched, though in her features
Speaker 1: she should pretend gladness will really be sorry. Oh hi, hello,
Speaker 1: this is let's talk about myths, baby, And I am
Speaker 1: that host of yours, she who likes to dive too
Speaker 1: deep into the nastier, more horrifying parts of the ancient
Speaker 1: world and classical myth because it's fun, I guess, and
Speaker 1: horrifying for sure. After last week's episode The Pigmlien of
Speaker 1: it All and my conversation with Imogen about Avid's Ours Amatoria,
Speaker 1: I was a little inspired. See. I've had this book
Speaker 1: sitting next to my computer for a few months. It
Speaker 1: was edited by a friend and podcast guest, Avin McMaster
Speaker 1: and Melanie Race at Campbell, and it was sent to
Speaker 1: me by the publisher, and well, it just feels relevant
Speaker 1: as fuck given what I covered last week, and so
Speaker 1: I decided I'm just not done diving into the psyches
Speaker 1: of misogynists of the ancient world, both real and fictional.
Speaker 1: The book you see is called Toxic Masculinity in the
Speaker 1: Ancient World. You can see why I even knew I
Speaker 1: would want it. Yeah, so I picked it up and
Speaker 1: I went in search of Avid. God's know he was
Speaker 1: going to be in there, and he is. The chapter
Speaker 1: is called Toxic Manhood Acts and the Nice Guy Phenomenon
Speaker 1: in Avid by Melissa Martrano. And well, that is what
Speaker 1: I'm here with today. The chapter is serving as both
Speaker 1: a source and inspiration. Today we are looking at the
Speaker 1: instances of Avid's pick up artistry tips being used by
Speaker 1: mythological figures, particularly and so even more relevantly in Roman
Speaker 1: depictions of originally Greek myth and characters. So these are
Speaker 1: Roman poets writing about the ancient Greek mythos, because for all,
Speaker 1: Greek myths are toxic as shit. I think some of
Speaker 1: the Roman sources that I've been reading really like blow
Speaker 1: them out of the water. But before we get there,
Speaker 1: I also have to tell you about another two episodes
Speaker 1: that are coming this week. That is, right, this week
Speaker 1: we put Bonus content Speaking of Romans. On Thursday, you
Speaker 1: will hear the episode I recorded with past guest doctor
Speaker 1: Jeremy Swist about a project that he has been working
Speaker 1: on for the last year, a translation of the Roman
Speaker 1: emperor Julian's work. Sometimes it's called the Symposium, sometimes it's
Speaker 1: called the Caesars, and which Jeremy has aptly called it
Speaker 1: the Symposium of the Caesars. Julian was a late Antiquity emperor.
Speaker 1: He made a brief attempt at returning the empire to
Speaker 1: its pagan roots after Constantine had instituted Christianity, but he
Speaker 1: died young. And yes, I do wonder what the world
Speaker 1: might have looked like if Christianity hadn't taken hold. Would
Speaker 1: it be better? I mean, the Romans were dark too,
Speaker 1: so it probably not, but it would be different. Yeah. Julian, though,
Speaker 1: was born Greek. He wrote The Symposium, theorizing a conversation
Speaker 1: between dead rulers of Greece and Rome and the gods
Speaker 1: of Olympus. It's like a discussion about who was the
Speaker 1: best ruler, in the style of a Platonic dialogue, but
Speaker 1: like everyone's dead or a god. It's fun and weird
Speaker 1: and features Alexander the Great having like a chit chat
Speaker 1: with people who died hundreds of years after he died,
Speaker 1: so you know, it's a time. What's really fun, though,
Speaker 1: is that the translation that Jeremy has done, he has
Speaker 1: then turned into a full cast recording of the piece itself.
Speaker 1: It's coming to you on my show. So on Thursday
Speaker 1: you will hear Jeremy and I talking about the project,
Speaker 1: the work itself, the translation, the production and casting process,
Speaker 1: and a little Julianic history lesson, and on Friday you
Speaker 1: will get the full cast recording of this piece. It's
Speaker 1: so well done that the casting is so fun and
Speaker 1: interesting and like the gods are in it and all
Speaker 1: of these rulers, and the translation is so silly and accessible,
Speaker 1: you're gonna love it. At the end of today's episode,
Speaker 1: I'm even gonna play a little clip from it, just
Speaker 1: to get you pumped for Thursday and Friday's episodes. But first,
Speaker 1: the instructions of Avid's horror show of a so called
Speaker 1: seduction manual being used in the myths themselves. As you
Speaker 1: might have gathered enormous trigger warning here, we're gonna be
Speaker 1: looking at ancient pick up artistry absurd levels of misogyny
Speaker 1: and far too much like instructed sexual assault. It's great,
Speaker 1: I won't get into any like wild violent details, but
Speaker 1: there's still a lot going down in these sources. Avid
Speaker 1: is a fucking enigma. Like was he a piece of
Speaker 1: human garbage or a brilliant and empathetic poet? Was he
Speaker 1: somewhere in between? Was he just like a flawed as
Speaker 1: fuck guy who wrote horrible shit when he was young
Speaker 1: and then tried to make up for it later. We
Speaker 1: will probably never know, but it won't stop me from
Speaker 1: loving to hate him. This is episode two forty nine,
Speaker 1: But he's such a nice guy. Avid's ours Amatoria in
Speaker 1: mythological practice, as Melissa Martrano puts it in her chapter,
Speaker 1: The narrator of Abvid's ours Amatoria, presumably Avid himself quote,
Speaker 1: teaches his male readers how to more systematically, effectively and
Speaker 1: cynically take on the characteristics and practices of the male
Speaker 1: protagonists in Augustine era elegiac poetry. As he likewise lays
Speaker 1: bare to us the endemic violence against women found in
Speaker 1: this genre. And with that, I want to make clear
Speaker 1: what I see in today's episode. This is indicative of
Speaker 1: Augustine Roman period works not necessarily the world of ancient
Speaker 1: Greece and Rome broadly. This is Avid's time that we're
Speaker 1: looking at very specifically. That isn't to say that what
Speaker 1: we know of ancient Greece, typically Athens was kind to women.
Speaker 1: Gods know they weren't. But these very specific instructions that
Speaker 1: Abvid lays out and how they are utilized in the
Speaker 1: actual mythological stories that I'm going to share today. These sources,
Speaker 1: these versions of the stories are very specifically Roman, like
Speaker 1: Imperial Augustine Roman. Also, I'm gonna say a lot of
Speaker 1: shit about men today, so I just want to clarify
Speaker 1: that this obviously applies mostly to sis straight dudes, but
Speaker 1: regardless of your gender or sexuality, this episode is a
Speaker 1: pretty great lesson in how not to behave just like
Speaker 1: as human beings. You all heard about Avid's ours amatoria
Speaker 1: in my episode with Image in last Friday, and a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago I share more of it, but
Speaker 1: like I said, today, we are looking specifically at how
Speaker 1: his tips and tricks are then used in mythological sources
Speaker 1: from his time, because it's wild and gross, and Marcherano's
Speaker 1: article lays out some examples, so beautifully that I had
Speaker 1: to dig them all out and then look at them
Speaker 1: myself and share them with you. That said, the premise
Speaker 1: of what I'm doing today is entirely inspired by this chapter.
Speaker 1: The examples that I'm using were laid out there. I'm
Speaker 1: just pulling the examples that she included, sharing the sources
Speaker 1: with you all, and breaking them down and looking at
Speaker 1: them through my words, all to say enormous credit to
Speaker 1: this chapter for today's episode. The book is also linked
Speaker 1: in the episode's description. I think a lot about this
Speaker 1: idea of nice guys, but I want to make clear
Speaker 1: what I mean and generally what the concept is. In
Speaker 1: this kind of like feminist framework. Nice guys as a
Speaker 1: concept are not in fact nice guys. They're that kind
Speaker 1: of guy who believes they're nice, and because of that,
Speaker 1: they are oh a woman's affections. Here is the good
Speaker 1: old Urban Dictionary definition, because it is super helpful and
Speaker 1: from all the way back in twenty thirteen. Nice guy
Speaker 1: not to be confused with a nice guy. That is,
Speaker 1: a male that is nice. When used as a noun
Speaker 1: instead of an adjective, nice guy refers to people men
Speaker 1: or women who believe basic social expectations are currency for sex.
Speaker 1: Here's their example. The nice guy says, I don't understand.
Speaker 1: I'm a good listener. I help carry their groceries and
Speaker 1: feed the cat while they're away, and they won't even
Speaker 1: let me touch them. And the reasonable person who Urban
Speaker 1: Dictionary terms a sympathetic ear says, uh, because as a
Speaker 1: human being, you should be doing those things in the
Speaker 1: first place. And oh yeah, nobody has to have sex
Speaker 1: with you, and probably won't want to because it's obvious
Speaker 1: you think basic decency is sex money. To be clear,
Speaker 1: you are trying to trick people into thinking your niceness
Speaker 1: is generosity when they can see your transactional intent. It's gross.
Speaker 1: Stop acting like a nice guy. See if a guy,
Speaker 1: or rather any human being is legitimately nice, then they
Speaker 1: don't need to weaponize it. They don't need to remind
Speaker 1: people that they are nice, because niceness isn't something you
Speaker 1: should have to explain. It's something that either comes naturally
Speaker 1: and is obvious to those around you, or is performed
Speaker 1: and thus dangerous. It's a not all men kind of term,
Speaker 1: like when I say men are fucking awful, real and true,
Speaker 1: and they don't need to say it out loud. Nice guys.
Speaker 1: We'll hear that and inherently recognize that so many men
Speaker 1: o there are fucking awful, and thus it is a
Speaker 1: reasonable statement and they don't need to be threatened because
Speaker 1: it doesn't apply to them, whereas the not all men
Speaker 1: type of guy will get all ragy and scream not
Speaker 1: all men, when in fact, by saying that and getting ragie,
Speaker 1: they are confirming that, yes, they are one of those men.
Speaker 1: It's a two thousand year old concept and it hasn't
Speaker 1: gone inwhere so that that is the type of nice
Speaker 1: guy that we are looking at today, the manipulative kind,
Speaker 1: the type of nice guy who studies how to be
Speaker 1: so called nice in order to use it to his
Speaker 1: advantage to trick women, or worse, as Avid will explain,
Speaker 1: is often necessary to force them. As Martrano puts it, quote,
Speaker 1: the RS encourages men to simulate the persona of a
Speaker 1: nice guy who is devoted to the woman he is pursuing.
Speaker 1: But it is evident that the narrator views this niceness
Speaker 1: as a pretense as part of a strategic play, one
Speaker 1: that barely masks the violent foundations of heteroerotic sex in Rome. Now,
Speaker 1: I've got lots of Ovid's RS passages to read. So
Speaker 1: just know that if my tone gets all weird and
Speaker 1: well Ovidian and I haven't clarified what I'm reading, I
Speaker 1: am writing a passage from the RS. It's a little
Speaker 1: more impactful than my constantly reminding you that it's a coot.
Speaker 1: Keep in mind I've cut some down from the original,
Speaker 1: but you can find a link to the whole horror
Speaker 1: show in the episode's description. As always, so let's dive
Speaker 1: straight in to the deep end. You must act the lover,
Speaker 1: and wounds must be feigned in your words. Hence, let
Speaker 1: confidence be sought by you by means of any contrivances whatever. Now,
Speaker 1: be at your part stealthily to captivate her affection by attentions,
Speaker 1: just as the shelving bank is encroached on by the
Speaker 1: flowing stream. Be not tired of praising either her face
Speaker 1: or her hair, her taper fingers too, in her small foot.
Speaker 1: The praise of their beauty pleases even the chaste. Their
Speaker 1: charms are the care and the pleasure of even maidens.
Speaker 1: Promise too, without hesitation, promises attract the fair. Make any
Speaker 1: gods you please to be witnesses of what you promise
Speaker 1: Jupiter from on high, smiles at the perjuries of life
Speaker 1: and commands the Aeolian south winds to sweep them away
Speaker 1: as worthless. Flatter her. Avid says, lie, if you have to,
Speaker 1: the gods won't care. But make the woman believe that
Speaker 1: you think she's beautiful. Nice guys compliment women, whether they
Speaker 1: believe what they're saying or not, because they know that
Speaker 1: a happy, flattered woman is more pliable, more influential. Full
Speaker 1: body shudder. So who in Abbit's mythology uses this tactic? Well, many,
Speaker 1: I am sure. But the example that we are going
Speaker 1: with via Martrano's chapter is Apollo with Daphne. Remember, the
Speaker 1: ars Amatoria was written long before the Metamorphoses, and by
Speaker 1: all evidence that I see and my personal desire and opinion,
Speaker 1: the met is far more sympathetic to the victimhood of
Speaker 1: these women. That said, Martrano seems convinced that he is
Speaker 1: just actively a piece of shit, which I honestly also respect.
Speaker 1: It is impossible to say what kind of guy Avid
Speaker 1: was with any certainty. But still this work, it employs
Speaker 1: Avid's pickup artistry roots like very effectively. You know this
Speaker 1: story well enough. Apollo is pierced by Cupid's arrow and
Speaker 1: quote unquote falls in love with the nymph Daphne. She
Speaker 1: wants nothing to do with him. She's a devotee to
Speaker 1: Artemis and has no need for a man at all.
Speaker 1: He chases after her, intent on marrying her and in
Speaker 1: doing so, getting to have sex with her, and he
Speaker 1: calls out she's running from him fast and he wants
Speaker 1: to slow her down. He tells her that he's chasing
Speaker 1: her out of love, and then this is from the
Speaker 1: brooks More translation. Apollo calls out to dafneed quote alas,
Speaker 1: if you should fall and mar your face, or tear
Speaker 1: upon the bramble your soft thighs, or should I prove
Speaker 1: unwilling cause of pain? The wilderness is rough and dangerous,
Speaker 1: and I beseech you be more careful. I will follow
Speaker 1: slowly flattery while in pursuit, like Apollo is literally chasing
Speaker 1: after a woman who is running from him and chooses
Speaker 1: to employ Avid's tip for getting women. Tell them they're pretty.
Speaker 1: Tears too, are of utility by tears. You will move adamant,
Speaker 1: make her if you can to see your moistened cheeks.
Speaker 1: If tears shall fail you, for indeed, they do not
Speaker 1: always come in time, touch your eyes with your wet hand.
Speaker 1: What discreet person would not mingle kisses with tender words?
Speaker 1: Though she should not grant them, still take them ungranted.
Speaker 1: Perhaps she will struggle at first and will say you
Speaker 1: naughty man. Still in her struggling she will wish to
Speaker 1: be overcome.
Speaker 2: Ah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Another of Obvid's tips and tricks for convincing women
Speaker 1: to let you fuck them is crying and then like
Speaker 1: kissing them, or rather like pretending to cry, show the
Speaker 1: girl that you're capable of emotions, or rather capable of
Speaker 1: pretending you have emotions. Nice guys have emotions, after all,
Speaker 1: So pretend you're crying. What's your face with water? If
Speaker 1: you have to, And if that doesn't convince her to
Speaker 1: give you attention, well that's when you take it. And
Speaker 1: the example of this trick being used in practice is
Speaker 1: none other than fucking Terrius in of its metamorphoses. Terrius,
Speaker 1: you might remember, was the Thracian king who married an
Speaker 1: Athenian princess named Prockney, but when he visits her family
Speaker 1: in Athens, he decides he actually wants her sister, Philamella.
Speaker 1: Terrius is arguably the most horrific and violent man of
Speaker 1: all classical myth and his first attempts to get what
Speaker 1: he wants from Philamella are to fake tears again. This
Speaker 1: is from Mobbin's Metamorphoses. The Macarter translation this time quote
Speaker 1: love made him eloquent. When he would press too firmly,
Speaker 1: he'd say it was Prockney's wish he cried as if
Speaker 1: she had also ordered this, or the Brooks Moore translation
Speaker 1: that I used for the Long Reading episodes quote his
Speaker 1: hypocritic eyes were filled with tears, as though they represented
Speaker 1: his desire.
Speaker 3: Ugh.
Speaker 1: This is such a good example of obbd's instructions, like,
Speaker 1: not only is Tereus pretending to cry like faking tears,
Speaker 1: but it is clear that he is doing it intentionally
Speaker 1: and with malicious intent, that he's faking it in order
Speaker 1: to get what he wants, that he's playing up his emotions,
Speaker 1: his love, his wife, even his general niceness as a
Speaker 1: means of getting what he wants from Philamella. Of course,
Speaker 1: in the case of Tereus, all the tears get him
Speaker 1: is Filamella coming with him. It's later that he has
Speaker 1: to use a more of Ovid's pick up Artistry handbook,
Speaker 1: and it's a far more horrifying recommendation. Call it violence
Speaker 1: if you like. Such violence is pleasing to the fair.
Speaker 1: They often wish, through compulsion to grant what they are
Speaker 1: delighted to grant. Whatever fair one has been despoiled by
Speaker 1: the sudden violence of passion. She is delighted at it,
Speaker 1: and the chief is as good as a godsend. But
Speaker 1: she who when she might have been carried by storm,
Speaker 1: has escaped untouched, though in her features she should pretend
Speaker 1: gladness will really be Sorry. Yeah, it's the same lines
Speaker 1: I read at at the very top of the episode.
Speaker 1: If your nice guy fake tears don't work, then it's
Speaker 1: time to turn to violence. Jesus, that is what Abbit
Speaker 1: is saying here. Like though, he's working to convince the
Speaker 1: men under his instruction that while it may look and
Speaker 1: feel like violence like, actually she wants it like the
Speaker 1: horror truly cannot be understated violence is we all well
Speaker 1: remember exactly what Terrius resorts to. I can't even bring
Speaker 1: myself to revisit that story again, but you can listen
Speaker 1: to the depraved horror show that it is, either by
Speaker 1: my reading of book six of Metamorphoses or for the
Speaker 1: episode I did for past spooky season, that's how horrifying
Speaker 1: it is on horrific and traumatic transformations. Instead, we're going
Speaker 1: to look at this trick being utilized by another poet
Speaker 1: from abvids time, that time of Augustine so called morals
Speaker 1: that seems to easily lend itself to Avid's pick up artistry.
Speaker 1: What we're going to look at is from Stacious and
Speaker 1: features none other than Achilles as the violent perpetrator. But
Speaker 1: before you worry that I'm going to blow up your
Speaker 1: love of Achilles and Patrick list, remember that this text
Speaker 1: is very of its time. This is not really the
Speaker 1: Achilles of the Iliad like, it's the Achilles of at
Speaker 1: least six or seven hundred years later, and Achilles with
Speaker 1: imperial Roman Augustine values. But first, this same imperial Roman
Speaker 1: Achilles is named very clearly in the ars Amatoria itself
Speaker 1: as an example, what are you doing descend into Viacus?
Speaker 1: The wool is no task of yours? Do you see
Speaker 1: glory by other arts of pallace? What have you to
Speaker 1: do with work back muskets? Your hand is fitted for
Speaker 1: holding the shield? Why hold the allotted flax in your
Speaker 1: right hand, by which hector shall fall? Spurn those spindles
Speaker 1: and wrapped in the laborious warp. The lance from Pelion
Speaker 1: is to be brandished by that hand. By chance, in
Speaker 1: the same chamber there was a royal maiden in her
Speaker 1: own undoing she found that he was a male. By force,
Speaker 1: indeed was she overcome, so we must believe. But still
Speaker 1: by force was she willing to be overcome? Many a
Speaker 1: time did she say stay when now Achilles was hastening
Speaker 1: to depart for the distaff laid aside, he had assumed
Speaker 1: valiant arms. Where now is this violence? Why with gentle voice, Didamia,
Speaker 1: do you detain the perpetrator of your disgrace? As indeed,
Speaker 1: there is shame in first beginning at it any time,
Speaker 1: so it's pleasing to the fair to submit when the
Speaker 1: other takes the initiative. It, yeah, that's that's just Achilles
Speaker 1: straight up raping a woman. And anyway, this is the
Speaker 1: Achilles before the war, when his mother Thetis places him
Speaker 1: on the island of Sciros disguised as a girl in
Speaker 1: order to keep him from being brought to the war
Speaker 1: at all. And this is Avid's pickup artist manual, criticizing
Speaker 1: Achilles for doing womanly things, for hiding his manhood behind
Speaker 1: the silly crafts of ladies. He recalls when Achilles was
Speaker 1: found out and that's when he raped Di Damia. But
Speaker 1: as Ovid makes very clear here, di Damia wanted it,
Speaker 1: even if she said she didn't. Yeah. In terms of
Speaker 1: this part of the story, most of the detail that
Speaker 1: survives comes from a Roman epic poem called the Acchilade,
Speaker 1: by state he's the guy who wrote the Thebian that
Speaker 1: we've talked about a handful of times on the show.
Speaker 1: But this is all about Achilles. We often hear this
Speaker 1: bit of the story, like how he was concealed on
Speaker 1: Skiros as a girl, but we don't often get the
Speaker 1: reminder that, at least in this Roman work where you
Speaker 1: know this survives in any detail, he's a fucking menace
Speaker 1: while he's there. If the Roman poet Statius wasn't directly
Speaker 1: influenced by Avid's Art of Love, then the concept of
Speaker 1: sexual violence being a useful means of achieving what a
Speaker 1: man wants was widespread enough in the Roman world that
Speaker 1: you know, he might as well have just lifted it
Speaker 1: right from of it. Achilles, You see, like he gets
Speaker 1: bored of pretending that he's a lady when he's you know,
Speaker 1: hiding out on Sciros, he gets restless, hiding himself away
Speaker 1: in the guise of a woman. Women do boring things. Hm.
Speaker 1: But it's not just the hiding obviously, Like it is
Speaker 1: this womanliness. He's Achilles, and here he is spending years
Speaker 1: pretending to be a girl. You can almost watch his
Speaker 1: toxicity grow and the language is like so eerily similar
Speaker 1: to avids Ours as Achilles turns to not only wanting Diademia,
Speaker 1: but wanting her regardless of whether she wants him back.
Speaker 1: His tacts, though, are also the scream of yeah, get ready.
Speaker 1: They scream of the friend zone. The type of nice
Speaker 1: guy who's nice because he wants something, who pretends to
Speaker 1: be a woman's friend because he assumes it will lead
Speaker 1: to sex, only to complain about being put in the
Speaker 1: friend zone when it turns out that she doesn't want him. Dude,
Speaker 1: it turns out that's just friendship yeap pieces anyway. The
Speaker 1: type of guy who gets ragy when that happens. That
Speaker 1: is Stacious's Achilles, because he first tries to seduce Diademia
Speaker 1: while he is still disguised as a girl, seemingly like
Speaker 1: from the moment he arrives, he's like at her, and
Speaker 1: later when she finds out the truth about him, he
Speaker 1: keeps going, but even still like no matter what he tries,
Speaker 1: it doesn't work because diademia. It's just like she just
Speaker 1: thinks he's her friend. She just thinks they're friends. He's
Speaker 1: been there for years, like long enough that she sees
Speaker 1: him as a brother, until finally she realizes what's going on,
Speaker 1: but by then it's too late. This is from the Ecchiliade.
Speaker 1: It's a little abridged by me. For when Achilles, rough
Speaker 1: as he was, stood amid the maiden company and the
Speaker 1: departure of his mother rid him of his artless bashfulness straightway,
Speaker 1: although the whole band gathers around him, he chose her
Speaker 1: as his comrade and assails with new and winning wiles her.
Speaker 1: Unsuspecting innocence her, he follows and persistently besets toward her.
Speaker 1: He ever and again directs his gaze now to zealously.
Speaker 1: He clings to her side, Nor does she avoid him.
Speaker 1: Now he pelts her with light garlands, now with the
Speaker 1: baskets that let their burden fall, Now with the thyrsus
Speaker 1: that harms her. Not or again he shows her the
Speaker 1: sweet strings of the lyre he knows so well, and
Speaker 1: the gentle measures and songs of Chirn's teaching, and guides
Speaker 1: her hand and makes her fingers strike the sounding harp.
Speaker 1: Now as she sings, he makes a conquest of her lips,
Speaker 1: and binds her in his embrace, and praises her amid
Speaker 1: a thousand kisses. She marvels at the deep tones of
Speaker 1: his voice. How he shuns all her fellows and pierces
Speaker 1: her with two attentive gaze, and at all times hangs
Speaker 1: breathless on her words. And now he prepares to reveal
Speaker 1: the fraud, But she, like a fickle girl, avoids him
Speaker 1: and will not allow him to confess. Even so, beneath
Speaker 1: his mother ray rule, the young Prince of Olympus gave
Speaker 1: treacherous kisses to his sister. He was still her brother,
Speaker 1: and she thought no harm until the reverence of their
Speaker 1: common blood gave way, and the sister feared a lover's passion.
Speaker 1: It's just so familiar, don't you think, This long list
Speaker 1: of all the things that Achilles did for Diadamia before
Speaker 1: she found out he was a man, when she thought
Speaker 1: that he was just her sister. Things he thinks are
Speaker 1: means of seduction, ways to impress her, and things that
Speaker 1: she thinks are just friendship because they're friends. He thinks
Speaker 1: he's convincing her to fuck him. She thinks they're friends.
Speaker 1: But that kind of nice guy never takes it well
Speaker 1: when he realizes he's in these so friend zone. It's
Speaker 1: about that time that Achilles starts to question his manhood,
Speaker 1: always a good sign. He starts to really resent that
Speaker 1: he's spending all these years pretending to be a girl
Speaker 1: when he's Achilles, for fuck's sake. He decides he needs
Speaker 1: to prove that he's a man. That's when he meets
Speaker 1: with Diadamia in a sacred grove, tucked out of the way,
Speaker 1: where he can have her all to himself. Here's the
Speaker 1: Achille again, abridged a little and adjusted just for clarity.
Speaker 1: He gains by force his desires, and with all his vigor,
Speaker 1: strains her in a real embrace. The whole choir of
Speaker 1: stars beheld from on high, and the horns of the
Speaker 1: young moon blushed red. She indeed filled the grove and
Speaker 1: mountains with her cries, But the train of Bacchus, dispelling
Speaker 1: slumbers cloud deemed it to the signal for the dance.
Speaker 1: On every side, the familiar shout arises, and Achilles once
Speaker 1: more brandishes the Thyrsus, yet first with friendly speech, he
Speaker 1: solaces the anxious maid. I am he, Why do you fear?
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have endured this dress and shameful garb had
Speaker 1: I not seen you on the seashore. It was for
Speaker 1: you that I submitted. For you, I carried schemes and
Speaker 1: bore womanly timbrel. Why do you weep you who are
Speaker 1: now daughter in law of mighty Ocean? Why do you
Speaker 1: moan you who shall bear valiant grandsons to Olympus. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this passage is basically Achilles raping Dia Damian, then asking
Speaker 1: her why she's upset because he's Achilles and now she's
Speaker 1: gonna have his baby, so obviously she should be happy
Speaker 1: about what he did and not upset, Like obviously, because
Speaker 1: this nice guy learned from Avid. When she wouldn't give
Speaker 1: it to him, he took what he wanted, and like
Speaker 1: Avid says, like she really wanted it, actually, like even
Speaker 1: if she protested, she wanted it. That's part of it
Speaker 1: for women saying no when they really mean yes, Jesus
Speaker 1: fucking Christ, like this is so familiar. I want to scream,
Speaker 1: how have men and the patriarchy not even evolved like
Speaker 1: a tiny bit over the last two thousand years, Like
Speaker 1: we are still dealing with the same absurdity if you
Speaker 1: didn't catch it in the earlier passages too, Like he
Speaker 1: he seems to have pulled the old boy with crush
Speaker 1: mentality on Dademia earlier, like he teased and taunted her,
Speaker 1: you know, because he liked her. I know, my horrified
Speaker 1: sarcasm is like probably enough, but I don't even feel
Speaker 1: like I can keep going without clarifying the horror here,
Speaker 1: Like the concept of boys who tease and pole girl's hair,
Speaker 1: like having crushes and therefore like it's okay and even
Speaker 1: flattering is horrific. The concept of the friend zone as
Speaker 1: it is seen as something that girl put boys into it,
Speaker 1: not just like one person believing the other is her
Speaker 1: friend when he actually just wants to sleep with her
Speaker 1: and then it's somehow her doing something bad when she
Speaker 1: asserts that like is fucking horrifying. And the nice guy
Speaker 1: mentality that the guy who is nice because he wants something,
Speaker 1: not because he's actually just compassionate or kind, is fucking horrifying.
Speaker 1: It's timeless, unfortunately, but it's fucking horrifying. And of course
Speaker 1: this diademia was written by man. This didemia exists in
Speaker 1: the realm of Avizar's Inmatoria, his pickup artist handbook. So
Speaker 1: how does this didemia handle Achilles raping her and then
Speaker 1: asking her why she is not happy about it? Here's
Speaker 1: more from the achillead horror struck was the princess at
Speaker 1: such dark happenings, albeit long since she had suspected his
Speaker 1: good faith and shuddered at his presence, and his countenance
Speaker 1: was changed as he made confession. What is she to do?
Speaker 1: Should she bear the tale of her misfortune to her
Speaker 1: father and ruin both herself and her lover, who perchance
Speaker 1: would suffer untimely death, And still there abode within her breast,
Speaker 1: the love so long deceived, silent as she and her
Speaker 1: grief and dissembles the crime that both now share Alike
Speaker 1: her nurse alone, she resolves to make a partner in deceit,
Speaker 1: and she, yielding to the prayers of both a sense
Speaker 1: with secret cunning, she conceals the rape and swelling womb
Speaker 1: and the burden of the month's availing till Lucina brought
Speaker 1: round by token the appointed season, her course now fully run,
Speaker 1: and gave deliverance of her child. Yeah, this Tidamia proves
Speaker 1: of it's theories, right, She doesn't have to be mad
Speaker 1: about it. Actually, like she can't be mad. She determines
Speaker 1: that she's now just as complicit in this crime, so
Speaker 1: she convinces herself and her nurse to hide the rape
Speaker 1: and the pregnancy until she finally gives birth to Achilleses
Speaker 1: old child. By the way, Neoptolemus, who is how fucking
Speaker 1: horrible surprise surprise alas too great is the confidence of
Speaker 1: any youth in his own good looks. If he awaits
Speaker 1: for her to be the first to ask him, let
Speaker 1: the man make the first approaches. Let the man use
Speaker 1: words of entreaty. She will kindly receive his soft entreaties
Speaker 1: to gain your wish. Ask she only wishes to be asked.
Speaker 1: Tell her the cause and the origin of your desires.
Speaker 1: Jupiter came as a suppliant to the heroines of olden times.
Speaker 1: No fair one found fault with Great Jove. But if
Speaker 1: you perceive puffed up vanity to be the result of
Speaker 1: your prayers, desist from your design and withhold your advances.
Speaker 1: Many desire that which flies from them, and hate that
Speaker 1: which is close at hand. By pressing on less eagerly,
Speaker 1: remove all weariness of yourself. Nor must your hope of
Speaker 1: enjoyment be always confessed by you as you entreat. Let
Speaker 1: love make his entrance concealed beneath the name of friendship.
Speaker 1: By this introduction, I have seen the prudish fair deceived.
Speaker 1: He who was the friend became the lover. Yeap, that's
Speaker 1: just Stovid promoting the origins of the friend zone. If
Speaker 1: you pretend to be a girl's friend, then she's likely
Speaker 1: to give in to you as a lover. It's no
Speaker 1: wonder the modern Inceell movement has taken hold of this
Speaker 1: mentality and run with it. Like if you can blame
Speaker 1: all your problems on women, it makes continuing to be
Speaker 1: a piece of human garbage a lot easier, because reflecting
Speaker 1: and looking inward to become a decent human being is
Speaker 1: too difficult for these types of men. If you have
Speaker 1: to perform at human decency, then the problem is you,
Speaker 1: not the woman. Like real good men want to befriend
Speaker 1: women because they appreciate their friendship, not because they hope
Speaker 1: for sex. They're nice guys because it comes naturally, and
Speaker 1: they're empathetic and caring people, not because they want sex.
Speaker 1: They recognize that actually words have value, and when a
Speaker 1: woman says no, she means no, not try harder. They
Speaker 1: recognize that violence is bad, rage is bad, and no
Speaker 1: one knows anyone else sex wild. I know, Wow, what
Speaker 1: a fucking episode? Am I right? Anyway? I woke up
Speaker 1: this morning having no idea what I was going to
Speaker 1: write about for an episode that I had to do today,
Speaker 1: But here we are, five thousand words of horror later,
Speaker 1: thanks Ofvid. Maybe you were an enormous human toilet. Maybe
Speaker 1: you were doing something we'll never understand, but either way,
Speaker 1: you have given me some great and supremely fucked up content.
Speaker 1: So thanks. Don't do like off it says, okay, Like
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're listening to me, then I hope
Speaker 1: that you don't identify with a single fucking thing that
Speaker 1: I just read. But I still feel like I have
Speaker 1: to clarify because wow, like it's just a little too
Speaker 1: relatable for something that's two thousand years old, you know,
Speaker 1: a little too on the nose for so many the
Speaker 1: f all of today. It's good times. Am I right? Anyway?
Speaker 1: That was all awful, Like friend zone doesn't exist. You're
Speaker 1: either friends or you're fucking not. And you know no
Speaker 1: means no weird anyway, I don't even know you get it.
Speaker 1: I'm exhausted by my own horrifying words. So let's just
Speaker 1: listen to a clip from Friday's full cast recording Julian's
Speaker 1: Symposium of the Caesars. Shelley. Just a little palate cleanser,
Speaker 1: get you excited for what's coming.
Speaker 2: The gods agreed to Dionysis' proposal, but the question still
Speaker 2: remained what form should the competition take. Hermes suggested the following.
Speaker 3: I think each contestant should give a speed, one after
Speaker 3: the other, and offer an account of their career. Then
Speaker 3: the gods will vote for the winner.
Speaker 2: Apollo didn't think this was such a good idea.
Speaker 1: That's not how we gods conduct examinations and make judgments.
Speaker 1: This should be about what's true, not what's rhetorically persuasive.
Speaker 2: Zeus, however, found a way to satisfy both his sons
Speaker 2: while also keeping the party going into overtime.
Speaker 3: I see no reason we cannot let them deliver spieces.
Speaker 3: We will time them with a water clock.
Speaker 1: Then after that we will have a question and answer
Speaker 1: period where we can put their ideas.
Speaker 3: To the test.
Speaker 2: Dionysus poured a couple cheap shots.
Speaker 3: Don't use a water.
Speaker 1: Clock, tree Janer Alexander might think it's full of nectar
Speaker 1: and chug it all and there will be none left
Speaker 1: for the other contestants. That was so fun. I can't
Speaker 1: wait for all to hear what Jeremy's put together and
Speaker 1: our conversation about it too. Now let's finish off with
Speaker 1: a five star review from one of you amazing people.
Speaker 1: As always, this one comes from a user called ABDWG
Speaker 1: one two five six in the States. So good. I
Speaker 1: stumbled upon this podcast a few months ago when trying
Speaker 1: to expand my Greek myth knowledge, and it has grown
Speaker 1: to become one of my favorite series. Leave is funny, knowledgeable,
Speaker 1: and unafraid to point out the ugly tropes of Greek
Speaker 1: myth and I just love her. Thank you love to
Speaker 1: hear it. I need more reviews to read coming up,
Speaker 1: so get on it, wonderful people, Let's talk about Myth's
Speaker 1: Baby is written and produced by me Live Albert michaelas
Speaker 1: Smith is the hermes from my Olympians. Better known as
Speaker 1: the assistant producer Laura Smith, is now the production assistant
Speaker 1: and audio engineer. Select music in this episode was by
Speaker 1: Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the iHeart Podcast Network.
Speaker 1: Listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Help
Speaker 1: me continue bringing you the world of Greek mythology and
Speaker 1: the Ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron, where you'll get
Speaker 1: bonus episodes and more. Visit patreon dot com slash myths Baby,
Speaker 1: or click the link in this episode's description. Thank you all.
Speaker 1: What a ship show, honestly wow, yep, I him live
Speaker 1: and I love this ship even when it's fucking horrifying.
Speaker 1: Levels of misogyny that have not changed at all are
Speaker 1: gone away, even slightly.
Speaker 3: Muh.
Speaker 1: The Conte col