Speaker 1: Welcome the Guys We Fu.
Speaker 2: Me Anti Slutshamings podcast that I'm Christina hating. I'm for
Speaker 2: in fister and I'm so we're up to flooding, your
Speaker 2: warning and your shame.
Speaker 1: Hey it was what?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Okayout, hello fuckers, how you doing you? Okay, Welcome to
Speaker 4: another episode of Guys We Fucked.
Speaker 1: Wait guys, we don't have a lights on? Oh wow,
Speaker 1: you're right? Can you do it? Because I just I can,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't.
Speaker 5: Then I didn't even notice. Doesn't look really that bad.
Speaker 1: This is me.
Speaker 2: I like how I was just talking about camera set
Speaker 2: up and then I get yeah, we literally have what.
Speaker 1: Can I say? Yeah, you do have.
Speaker 2: That's so funny that you said that, because I was
Speaker 2: actually thinking in my head how you have such a
Speaker 2: cases of senior?
Speaker 1: Do you know what senior riis is?
Speaker 2: I mean, I definite like an old fuck No, it's
Speaker 2: not senior. It means senior, like senior in high school.
Speaker 1: So right before you.
Speaker 2: Guys like, I'm out already, Yeah, you're you're out the door.
Speaker 2: It's a very Jersey say. That's why I didn't know
Speaker 2: if it happened in Pennsylvania. Did it's did?
Speaker 4: Yeah, senior writers, we'd skip class a lot like I
Speaker 4: already got accepted to college exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, okay, yum, okay, good Mike.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hey, guys, how you doing you good?
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of Guys We Fucked. It's the
Speaker 2: anti slut shaming podcast. I'm Coaren Fisher, I'm Christina Hutchinson.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Do you want to email us?
Speaker 4: Well, you're in luck. We have an email address. Sorry
Speaker 4: about last night show at gmail dot com. Today's subject
Speaker 4: line how to break the breadcrumbing cycle when there's a
Speaker 4: proximity issue. Hey, Karin and Christina and new guy Eric.
Speaker 4: He's not here, Yes, he's gonna leave at one point. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I've been participating in some dumbery.
Speaker 2: I figured I turned it to my guiding lights to
Speaker 2: get help get me out of it.
Speaker 1: Some backstory on me.
Speaker 4: I'm twenty seven, female Brooklyn acting actor, working at a
Speaker 4: restaurant and never been in a relationship.
Speaker 1: A real catch, Yeah, but also good for you. Probably
Speaker 1: got a lot done.
Speaker 4: I used to be incredibly self conscious, but after getting
Speaker 4: treatment for an eating disorder and doing a lot of
Speaker 4: self work, I have been feeling free and confident for
Speaker 4: a couple of years now, been dating a lot, super casually,
Speaker 4: just enjoying being single and not tied down to anyone.
Speaker 4: I used to feel super sad that I was alone,
Speaker 4: and now I revel in it. However, recently I started
Speaker 4: to feel that perhaps I'm ready to share my life
Speaker 4: with someone else.
Speaker 1: All downhill from there.
Speaker 4: It's almost a selfish want, because I want to keep
Speaker 4: growing and improving, and I don't want to miss out
Speaker 4: on the experience of being in a romantic partnership at
Speaker 4: least once in my life. Perhaps I'm meant to be single,
Speaker 4: but hey, don't knock it until you try it, right.
Speaker 2: So dramatic for twenty seven Perhaps I'm meant to be
Speaker 2: alone forever.
Speaker 1: Cut to a few months ago.
Speaker 4: I work at a restaurant in Brooklyn and there's a
Speaker 4: bar across the street we sometimes go to after work.
Speaker 4: The bartender there and I have been flirting for almost
Speaker 4: a year now.
Speaker 1: Ooh, I love a long term.
Speaker 4: Flirt, but also bar under's flirt with everybody. You can't
Speaker 4: trust them, Yeah, they get good tips. In November we
Speaker 4: finally hooked up and it was really good. There were
Speaker 4: things were moving along kind of naturally. I would see
Speaker 4: him for drinks outside of work. He would come in
Speaker 4: for coffee at my spot, and I would go see
Speaker 4: him at his job for drinks, stepping out on his brakes,
Speaker 4: sharing cigarettes, and smooching a bit outside. Oh, how French
Speaker 4: and romantic. Beginning of January he left for a trip
Speaker 4: for about ten days to visit another girl he met bartending. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and when he came back, I just didn't hear from him.
Speaker 4: M hmmm, like borderline crickets.
Speaker 2: I mean bartender to me out of all the worse
Speaker 2: than musician as far as like untrustworthy mass Oh yeah, yeah, yes,
Speaker 2: it's the worst.
Speaker 4: He comes in for coffee like usual, about once a week,
Speaker 4: but other than that, no text, no contact, no attempt
Speaker 4: to hang out. I know this means he doesn't want
Speaker 4: to see me. I mean it means that he's seen
Speaker 4: somebody else. I hate this multiple other people probably. I
Speaker 4: hate this phrase, but it applies here. If he wanted to,
Speaker 4: he would. Yes, you're correct, so I'm trying to be
Speaker 4: smart about it.
Speaker 1: Move on.
Speaker 4: The problem lies with the proximity of our workplaces. When
Speaker 4: he comes in, he acts like nothing is weird and
Speaker 4: we chat as if it's all normal. I try to
Speaker 4: be cold and not really care, but we fall into
Speaker 4: old patterns of chats. He then texted me a couple
Speaker 4: days ago when when he hadn't seen me for a
Speaker 4: bit and asked me out for drinks.
Speaker 1: I gave him sort of a I might have plans,
Speaker 1: but maybe answer.
Speaker 2: The day came, I said, let's go here, and he
Speaker 2: bailed that night, and you fell for a trick. He
Speaker 2: just wanted to see that he still could get you
Speaker 2: if you wanted to. And you pretend, You've pretended that
Speaker 2: he could in for a second, but then't do a
Speaker 2: very good job of it.
Speaker 1: And then you caved.
Speaker 2: And then he goes, oh, that's all I wanted to know.
Speaker 2: I didn't really want to hang out with you. I
Speaker 2: just wanted to know that I could if I wanted to.
Speaker 1: Oh it hurts. I am very aware that I have
Speaker 1: to get over this situation.
Speaker 4: But the problem is that I don't often have feelings
Speaker 4: for people often, so the fact that I'm even thinking
Speaker 4: about him is frustrating but rare.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I think he was. He literally
Speaker 1: works a block away from you.
Speaker 4: Like you don't have feelings for people often, you conveniently
Speaker 4: have feelings for somebody worked to block away from you,
Speaker 4: there's Brooklyn is big girl, but he has a very
Speaker 4: large brow and there's.
Speaker 1: A lot of hot eyes in it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she has feelings for him because he's fucking yeah.
Speaker 2: That's why, like people like this know how to manipulate
Speaker 2: your mind to keep you thinking about them.
Speaker 1: He's playing games with you.
Speaker 2: It's not that you don't actually feel for him, It's
Speaker 2: that he's He's created a manipulation and a challenge for you,
Speaker 2: so you're thinking about it the way you would think
Speaker 2: about sudoku, not in a rotlantic way.
Speaker 1: How many women do you think he saw in that tendation? Oh,
Speaker 1: probably a couple eight, not.
Speaker 4: To mention the fact that I can literally see his
Speaker 4: face while we are both at our respective places of work.
Speaker 4: I've gone on other dates since meeting him good, I've
Speaker 4: tried dating apps. I go out with friends often and
Speaker 4: have definitely been having fun. But he keeps giving me
Speaker 4: little nuggets of attention, and I start to put my
Speaker 4: clown nose.
Speaker 2: Right back on lock him exactly, and then when he
Speaker 2: comes in, I mean, just don't just don't look at him.
Speaker 2: Any advice on how to move on and or how
Speaker 2: to tell him my boundaries.
Speaker 1: He doesn't give a shit about your boundaries.
Speaker 4: Girl that I'm not really interested in these stupid games. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but that's gonna care. If you actually tell him that
Speaker 4: he's he's gonna go.
Speaker 1: I got her. Yeah, he doesn't care.
Speaker 2: You don't need you don't need these proclamations of boundaries.
Speaker 2: You don't need to announce the boundary. You said it exactly,
Speaker 2: forget it, because you know what, I announced boundaries a lot,
Speaker 2: I allow people to cross them.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I feel like it's like every time I go to
Speaker 4: quit smoking and I announce it, I don't the quitting
Speaker 4: stops eventually. It's like you kind of got to do
Speaker 4: things without telling anybody because you're yeah, it's miss.
Speaker 1: Here's a little secret.
Speaker 2: Nothing lets someone who is testing boundaries know that your
Speaker 2: boundaries are weakest ship more than announcing your boundaries only
Speaker 2: only only the week announced their boundaries because they have
Speaker 2: they're like convincing themselves that they're actually setting them. And
Speaker 2: then someone who knows how to break down boundaries said
Speaker 2: this fucking weak gass bitch, and they go and then
Speaker 2: the boundary is done.
Speaker 4: Yeah, think of a guy coming into your work going,
Speaker 4: I just want you to know that My boundary is
Speaker 4: that I'm not going to be playing these games.
Speaker 1: When you text me, you're gonna go, You're gonna go
Speaker 1: got them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're gonna skip home and you're going to masturbate
Speaker 2: to how you got them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I think that's a good idea.
Speaker 2: Anytime as a woman you're trying to do something, role
Speaker 2: play doing it as a man, and see how much
Speaker 2: of a pussy ass bitch.
Speaker 1: You look like and then you still look like that
Speaker 1: as a woman.
Speaker 2: Okay, you soon do. It's just socially acceptable. Just you
Speaker 2: know the thing, the thing that's so bothersome for you writer.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you said some attach your picks. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: you work at this restaurant.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I remember. I'm sorry if I was awkward
Speaker 1: when you came in Christina, I've been a fail. You
Speaker 1: a nice restaurant. Yeah, amazing restaurant. You were lovely and sweet?
Speaker 1: Fuck I lost it. What was I gonna say? I forget?
Speaker 1: I don't know. You try to do is remember, like
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: You were just a notch on his bedpost, and it
Speaker 2: sucks to be a notch on our bed post.
Speaker 1: And we all like the thing, we're a song like
Speaker 1: above that, and like, I know we're not.
Speaker 2: We've all been a notch on someone's bedpost, and it's fine.
Speaker 1: This is what I was getting at.
Speaker 4: There is something that a guy, a guy, or a
Speaker 4: woman or a non binary person can hook you the
Speaker 4: bread crumbing thing.
Speaker 1: It's like even a dude.
Speaker 2: You don't even fucking like that much can sometimes manage
Speaker 2: to hook you.
Speaker 1: With that move.
Speaker 2: And you're like, I don't even like, like, have you
Speaker 2: ever been like like ghosted by a guy that you're like,
Speaker 2: I didn't even fucking like you. But you realize you
Speaker 2: look back and you're like, oh, you're playing mind games
Speaker 2: and I wanted to win. Oh yeah, that's like the
Speaker 2: guy guy you lets you who literally interrupted my life.
Speaker 2: I go, I was zero percent interested in you. You
Speaker 2: went out of your way to work on the relationship
Speaker 2: and then I mean I solved that puzzle, but like yeah,
Speaker 2: fuck you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's like, yeah, you can.
Speaker 4: You can certain I don't think you were actually into
Speaker 4: this guy as much as he was just playing you
Speaker 4: and you don't, like, no one wants to be played
Speaker 4: and he's being sexy and like an elusive but like
Speaker 4: but also it's like you're kind of like I think
Speaker 4: you're you're mourning what could have been in your mind,
Speaker 4: but like when you actually look at what what really
Speaker 4: went down between you, there's not a lot of substance there.
Speaker 4: You went out for drinks a couple of times, like
Speaker 4: you didn't have a relationship nothing. He was just like
Speaker 4: you were there. Yeah, there's nothing really happened.
Speaker 2: A lot, a lot, I think a lot of you
Speaker 2: filled in a lot extra in your mind and listen,
Speaker 2: we all do that, but this relationship really didn't have
Speaker 2: much substance. Okay, so you're thinking like what could have
Speaker 2: been or like what or what you like what happened
Speaker 2: after the ellipses in your mind, but like none of
Speaker 2: that went down.
Speaker 1: He doesn't. You don't mean anything to this guy. I know.
Speaker 1: That's it. What could have been? In hope, they're so addict.
Speaker 1: Just stop answering him, Stop answering him.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so every time, the only solution, every time
Speaker 4: you feel the poll, you have to do the work
Speaker 4: to mentally like wrangle yourself back in by reminding yourself
Speaker 4: that this guy's a dime a doz and he does
Speaker 4: this to everybody. He's not really doing anything wrong. It's
Speaker 4: just like you don't want this guy. Yeah, you don't
Speaker 4: want this guy.
Speaker 2: And I also like, you don't need to be a
Speaker 2: bit to him when he comes in. Literally, just yeah,
Speaker 2: that's gonna be wee, that's gonna come off. And don't
Speaker 2: be cold, just be yeah, exactly, be regular and stop responding. Yeah,
Speaker 2: serve him whatever he you know, his coffee or whatever,
Speaker 2: and then that's it. That's the only relationship that you have.
Speaker 2: There are so many hot guys in Brooklyn. It's stupid. Okay,
Speaker 2: they're so hot. Go go go out, go out with your.
Speaker 4: Girlfriends, show you titties or whatever you feel comfortable doing,
Speaker 4: and you'll get another one.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I promise guys.
Speaker 4: March seventh, that is our next residency show at the
Speaker 4: MasterCard Midnight Theater for guys we fuck. That is also
Speaker 4: the very first live events that we will be joined
Speaker 4: by our new guy, our.
Speaker 1: New younger guy.
Speaker 2: He's not my younger man, someone different, Eric Freddy, Eric Freddy, everybody. Yeah, sprightly,
Speaker 2: he's you know, light on his feet, and I got
Speaker 2: a fun idea planned for us to open the show.
Speaker 4: So make sure you get your tickets. The link to
Speaker 4: those tickets on his feet.
Speaker 2: I just feel like it I feel like young people
Speaker 2: are like lighter on their feet, you know, because they're like,
Speaker 2: we're never going to die.
Speaker 1: Mike didn't like, Oh wow, you know you didn't that
Speaker 1: okay was vicious. I'm sorry. It wasn't a fat joke, Mike.
Speaker 1: Oh no, it wasn't it. No, it wasn't a fat joke.
Speaker 1: I just it means like older people are slower. That's better. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's all. That's all I meant. I like that Mic
Speaker 1: was more comfortable with the older people are slower. That
Speaker 1: was sash. I really couldn't tell you, guys relaxed.
Speaker 2: I'm the oldest person in the room, so everyone relaxed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you're you look the youngest, so doesn't count. Okay.
Speaker 4: Also, uh, I have a stand up comedy album. Out's
Speaker 4: my Davy stand up comedy album, Good Girl Bar. But
Speaker 4: you could stream it on Spotify. You can listen to
Speaker 4: it on iTunes. It's pretty sick. And I have a
Speaker 4: patreot on page where once a week I do group
Speaker 4: Zoom sherapy.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 4: And I got to say I had I had a
Speaker 4: session over the weekend. I usually do them on Tuesdays
Speaker 4: and then one weekend and it was the theme was
Speaker 4: depression with a little dash of abortion.
Speaker 2: And I know, and I know I attract people that
Speaker 2: have issues with their parents, that have severe mental problems. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I have, because I'm honest about mine. And I
Speaker 2: love watching a Christina audience. A lot of just sad
Speaker 2: girls in card against It. Hell yeah girl sweet. But
Speaker 2: I got to say, I'm really because I'm in such
Speaker 2: a good place. I am able to talk to other
Speaker 2: people about their severe suicidal depression and I'm able to
Speaker 2: make them laugh and it's pretty joyful.
Speaker 1: I got to say, because I've been there and I
Speaker 1: know what it's like, and i know it's not cute.
Speaker 2: Or fun, but it's a good I think this group,
Speaker 2: the group thing that I'm doing, it's just really good.
Speaker 1: It's really special and lovely. And you could sign up.
Speaker 4: If you sign up for just five bucks a month,
Speaker 4: you can listen to these recordings of all these zooms
Speaker 4: and you have a long list of you know, singable
Speaker 4: zoom episode So Patreon dot com slash Christina Hutchinson.
Speaker 2: It's a really cool space. I'm just envisioning someone writing
Speaker 2: their suicide. No, like, Christina, you did all you did well.
Speaker 1: You know, if you're gonna do it. You're gonna do it.
Speaker 1: I can't. I'm not there, but like you should do that.
Speaker 1: That's you should be your merch.
Speaker 6: We'll do it.
Speaker 1: You're gonna do it. But what Nike symbol that's so funny? No,
Speaker 1: because I'll get sued for by people's parents. Do this,
Speaker 1: do this Nike symbol the other way? You know, it's
Speaker 1: down the mirror upside down. You're gonna do it, You're
Speaker 1: gonna do.
Speaker 2: I do have merch that says congrats on a skeleton
Speaker 2: hand thumbs up.
Speaker 1: Uh, And I do mean it.
Speaker 2: But yeah, there's something about like being feeling like I
Speaker 2: feel like it's common for a lot of people with
Speaker 2: mental health issues to want to die, and there's a
Speaker 2: difference between wanting to die.
Speaker 1: And actually formulating a plan.
Speaker 4: There's all kinds of various stages of being suicidal. But
Speaker 4: you know, living in a world of you know, I
Speaker 4: want to escape this feeling I have let me go online,
Speaker 4: or let me jerk off, or let me smoke weed
Speaker 4: or you know, there's so many options we have to
Speaker 4: escape our feelings. And I'm like, why don't we just
Speaker 4: lean in and then make fun of ourselves? And it's
Speaker 4: I gotta say, it's potent. It's very healing, and it's
Speaker 4: very potent.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 4: And then March twenty second and twenty third, Springfield, Missouri.
Speaker 1: I'm headlining the Blue Room. Thank you, Oh the Voices
Speaker 1: in Our Heads.
Speaker 4: My podcast solo podcast on Big Mikey d Dong Dicky's
Speaker 4: network Slip Back Studios. When he when he exits Guys,
Speaker 4: we fucked, he is still a second mic on my
Speaker 4: solo show, so and he sALS, he makes a lot
Speaker 4: of noises and.
Speaker 1: It's really fun going on. Yeah every Monday, baby, Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh.
Speaker 2: And then for me, if you want to listen to
Speaker 2: my podcast that makes people so mad when I post
Speaker 2: clips about it online without a country, because they just
Speaker 2: don't know what's what is going on.
Speaker 1: It's it's real. It really actually tickles me just people.
Speaker 2: I just let people have huge fights in the comments
Speaker 2: with themselves, and then I chuckle a little bit as
Speaker 2: I as I read them, because I'm like, you just
Speaker 2: really don't I don't know what we're like, what we're
Speaker 2: talking about. I mean, it's really a long form podcast,
Speaker 2: but since you have to make a clip for everything
Speaker 2: these days, it's just very funny. So anyway, without a
Speaker 2: Country Podcast, very fun episode this weekend. I mean when
Speaker 2: I say fun, I mean like in the context of
Speaker 2: the news, it's not really light or fine. But we
Speaker 2: talked about you know, a Culton Kenya that you probably
Speaker 2: don't know about, where you know, a lot of the
Speaker 2: kids end up dead. It's just like my point was,
Speaker 2: because like, there's a lot of horrific, horrific things happening
Speaker 2: in the world, but really we really only concentrate on
Speaker 2: things that affect us in America.
Speaker 1: So I just think that's interesting.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: And then we also talked about.
Speaker 2: Michael Rubin, the CEO of Fanatics, destroying the baseball card industry.
Speaker 1: That was very interesting to me.
Speaker 2: And then of course we're getting heavy into what looks
Speaker 2: like it's going to be Biden versus Trump twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: And I gotta give you.
Speaker 2: The Kennedy ad in the Super Bowl, the independent ad
Speaker 2: Kennedy yet yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes, well independent.
Speaker 2: And I also got to give props to who's ever
Speaker 2: handling Joe Biden's social media because they posted the most
Speaker 2: hilarious picture with the Joe Biden's eyes glowing, and it
Speaker 2: was just like, what was the actual problem?
Speaker 1: I knew the chief just the way we planned the chiefs.
Speaker 2: And I love that because I think really one thing
Speaker 2: the Democratic Party is missing is a sense of humor.
Speaker 1: They're just not as funny as Republicans.
Speaker 2: Because and this leans into what I always say on
Speaker 2: the podcast about comedians, the funniest comedians we know the
Speaker 2: worst people like the soul wise, So that's why Republicans
Speaker 2: are so funny, because they don't they.
Speaker 1: Don't have no compass.
Speaker 2: And I don't want to say that as a wide
Speaker 2: sweeping statement. My show Without a Country is actually about
Speaker 2: the fact that I think the two political parties are
Speaker 2: actually equally soulless. It's just that Liberals are performatively household.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so I thought that was.
Speaker 2: Really funny, and I'm kind of I'm just like, you
Speaker 2: know what, I've just accepted the fact that it's Trump
Speaker 2: first versus Biden, and now it's like, let's booking go.
Speaker 1: There's just fucking goshing old guy versus old guy. Let's go,
Speaker 1: let's do it so goddamn energetic? Is he on roids
Speaker 1: or something? I mean like just like there's different versions
Speaker 1: of people in their you know, seventies fast food. Isn't
Speaker 1: that so do I.
Speaker 2: I have lots of energy, yeah, but still you still
Speaker 2: eat that? Hell yeah, that's crazy. I talk about like
Speaker 2: once a week. Wow, yeah, no problem, that's me. Guys
Speaker 2: just doesn't slow them down.
Speaker 1: You just like got you gotta learn what your body
Speaker 1: can handle, you know. So yeah, listen to Without a Country.
Speaker 2: It's comes out Wednesday nights, and again I recommend watching
Speaker 2: on YouTube because there's a lot of visual elements.
Speaker 1: But do whatever the hell you want. Washington, d C.
Speaker 2: I'm coming to see you, uh, February twenty ninth through
Speaker 2: March second five shows at the DC Comedy Loft, and
Speaker 2: I will be accompanied by Chloe Lebrain answer. You heard
Speaker 2: a couple episodes ago. It's gonna be such a fun show.
Speaker 2: Have lots of new material that you haven't heard yet.
Speaker 2: I mean unless you've been following me around and watching
Speaker 2: all my shows then you say it. But not like
Speaker 2: yet released online. So that's gonna be sick as fuck.
Speaker 2: Definitely grab a ticket to that all right now? Oh, yes,
Speaker 2: this is what we did this week. So we Christina
Speaker 2: and I this week we both watch the new Netflix.
Speaker 2: Uh call me a TV series, but that's a film.
Speaker 1: No, it's a documentary.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, well, I don't know why it's listed
Speaker 2: as a TV series, but it's yeah, it's a it's
Speaker 2: a single documentary and it's called lover Stalker Killer, and
Speaker 2: the synopsis is a mechanic tries online dating for the
Speaker 2: first time and meets a woman who takes romantic obsession
Speaker 2: to a deadly extreme.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Women, So this popped up on.
Speaker 4: What was it?
Speaker 2: I guess it was Friday, Like it was like Friday
Speaker 2: night maybe for me Fridayaturday night.
Speaker 1: I popped up and me and Alfred watched it. Alfred
Speaker 1: big TV dog was riveted the whole time. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you guys have if your dog's
Speaker 2: watch TV. Mine my whole life, I've never had a
Speaker 2: dog that watched TV. My childhood dog's never watched TV.
Speaker 2: My dog watches watches Like if you go like this,
Speaker 2: he'll go like to get around like he is watching
Speaker 2: the TV. He's you see his eyes following the characters.
Speaker 2: When if there's like a fight or he goes like
Speaker 2: he goes like this, He'll bark when a bad guy
Speaker 2: round it on stage.
Speaker 1: He's riveted. Wow.
Speaker 2: So it's like it's so funny too, because my dream
Speaker 2: was to have a dog to watch TV with and
Speaker 2: like he dreams watches it. So anyway, we we got
Speaker 2: really into this and uh, this this to me so
Speaker 2: what I wanted? When did you solve it? How long
Speaker 2: did it temp you to solve it? When they revealed,
Speaker 2: I mean, we're okay, soil if you want to watch
Speaker 2: this fast forward, it's still.
Speaker 4: Riveting though to find out I didn't know the storyline,
Speaker 4: and it's riveting. But even if you know the storyline,
Speaker 4: it's still like, damn when they I mean, as they
Speaker 4: revealed it, are you serious coming?
Speaker 1: Christina?
Speaker 2: Three minutes in I knew that Liz was Liz had
Speaker 2: had murdered Carrie and was pretending to be her. Three
Speaker 2: minutes in the minute she shows up to the date
Speaker 2: because she left something in the apartment.
Speaker 1: I fucking well, that was weird.
Speaker 2: I knew, but that was I knew the whole thing
Speaker 2: because she showed up to the other woman's house, Carrie's house. Okay,
Speaker 2: so what's gonna happen? Yeah, So what's happening is what's
Speaker 2: the mechanics name?
Speaker 1: Again? Just call him Bob. I don't know, all right, No,
Speaker 1: it's not Michael. Wait, let me let me look it
Speaker 1: up love Me Lovers Kitler. This guy I feel like this.
Speaker 4: Guy felt so like secretly was like damn all these Well,
Speaker 4: the thing is he he was a nice guy, but
Speaker 4: he also.
Speaker 1: Looks like he could have been like an extra member
Speaker 1: in smash Mouth. The way she dresses. He was a
Speaker 1: good guy. Like this is like in fucking Omaha, Nebraska.
Speaker 1: He's like the toast to the town.
Speaker 2: And it didn't make me realize, Wow, if we were
Speaker 2: dating in Omenhall, Nebraska would be the hottest commodities.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean you don't even have for Christina.
Speaker 1: Just go to Atlantic City, New Jersey. Oh, his name
Speaker 1: is Dave work Yeah.
Speaker 2: So so the mechanics guy name is Dave Right And
Speaker 2: so him and his ex wife Amy Uh they share
Speaker 2: cussy of their kids. He ends up moving to He
Speaker 2: moves to Nebraska to because he wants to be a
Speaker 2: hands on dad and like him and his ex wife
Speaker 2: are on good terms, but they're not no longer romantically involved.
Speaker 2: So he starts sets up a whole new life because
Speaker 2: she wants to His ex wife wants to move home
Speaker 2: to Nebraska.
Speaker 1: A man moving for a woman, I mean in it's
Speaker 1: actually lovely. He seems like a.
Speaker 2: Really nice guy. Yeah, he does, and so he doesn't
Speaker 2: want anything serious. He's, you know, thirty five restarting dating.
Speaker 2: He goes online dating early guys of you know, early
Speaker 2: Days of Earth, Early Dies, Freudian.
Speaker 1: He goes the early days.
Speaker 2: Of online dating, and he meets this woman named Liz,
Speaker 2: and they both talk about how they want really casual relationship.
Speaker 2: Liz seems fun or like party girl, like they're fucking,
Speaker 2: they're going to bars.
Speaker 1: She wants something casual. He's like, perfect, me too.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well it's so funny because in retrospect it's like he
Speaker 2: presented that he wanted something casual and she's.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, me too. And then of course yeah and
Speaker 1: I can yeah.
Speaker 2: And then he's a mechanic and then one day he's
Speaker 2: at the shop and this woman, Carrie, stops by to
Speaker 2: get her car fixed or something.
Speaker 1: He's like who's that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then but he's like being professional, he's the
Speaker 2: manager of the mechanic shop. He doesn't make any moves.
Speaker 2: They but then they find each other on a dating website.
Speaker 2: They match on a dating website and they're like I
Speaker 2: know you, and she's like I know you. And then
Speaker 2: they set up a date right, I guess it is weird.
Speaker 2: How would Liz know where that chick lives?
Speaker 1: Well, no, it was at his house.
Speaker 2: Oh it was.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So then they have their first they have their first day,
Speaker 2: like the first time, they go home to Dave's house.
Speaker 2: As soon as they start getting hot and heavy, Carrie
Speaker 2: and Dave the second woman, there's a buzz on Dave's
Speaker 2: apartment and it's Liz, the first casual woman, And I
Speaker 2: just want to be cash too, And she says, oh,
Speaker 2: I left something at your apartment, Like, first of all,
Speaker 2: if it's casual, what the fuck are you leaving that
Speaker 2: you need in the middle of the night at his apartment?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I didn't say what it was, No, and
Speaker 1: write her sanity.
Speaker 2: And right when that happens, I go, Liz is about
Speaker 2: to kill Carrie and pretend to be Carrie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, possumously. See, I was you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: I thought Liz.
Speaker 4: Really likes Dave and she's pretending to forget something totally
Speaker 4: something else.
Speaker 2: Oh she doesn't really like Dave, but yea than that
Speaker 2: different way. Well, and then I started getting worried about
Speaker 2: my mental health. I go, I wanted to see how
Speaker 2: long it took you to solve it, because I think
Speaker 2: it was a testament to how fucking nuts I can
Speaker 2: be if I need to be that I was able
Speaker 2: to solve the fact that Liz was gonna murder Carrie
Speaker 2: and pretend to her for years before they discovered Carrie's body,
Speaker 2: Like I knew, one hundred percent amazing, that's the fucking
Speaker 2: move I knew.
Speaker 4: Actually when Carrie's mom was like her house, she didn't
Speaker 4: pack up her bags. Why would she say she's documentary right, Like,
Speaker 4: why would she say she's moving to start a new
Speaker 4: job somewhere in another state. And then you look at
Speaker 4: her house and it's just like she just left real
Speaker 4: quick to go to the store. And I'm like Lane
Speaker 4: and thanking, yeah I was.
Speaker 2: And they make Carrie that when they thought it was
Speaker 2: Carrie all this crazy shit to Dave and his ex
Speaker 2: wife and kids. I was like Carrie, and they were,
Speaker 2: you know, saying, well, she's bipolar. I'm like, I don't
Speaker 2: think bi polar people do that. Bipolar people, I think
Speaker 2: more often hurt themselves, yeah, other than others. I mean,
Speaker 2: this suicide rate very high if you have bipolar disorder
Speaker 2: that you're not managing properly and you know, obviously if
Speaker 2: you have biopolar disorder, you know, lay off the drugs
Speaker 2: at alcohol number one, number one thing to do. But yeah,
Speaker 2: so I was number one concerned about how quickly I
Speaker 2: saw that, and then like it takes so long for
Speaker 2: the police officers to solve it too. I'm like, you guys, like,
Speaker 2: I know, it's maybe not as crazy murders happening, and
Speaker 2: like the first time you have to tackle a mystery
Speaker 2: like this, there's usually only one case like this in
Speaker 2: a in a in your police officer's entire career and
Speaker 2: an investigator's career. But it's like, come on, I mean,
Speaker 2: the guy you don't think outside the box a little
Speaker 2: bit that someone could be pretending, but you're you're not
Speaker 2: an investigator by profession.
Speaker 1: I was like, howl investigators not thinking. They seem very
Speaker 1: sane people.
Speaker 2: The two guys, and when the one guy was like,
Speaker 2: I they should buy a woman on yeah, when he
Speaker 2: was diagnosed with a brain tumor and he was like, hey,
Speaker 2: would it affect my ability to like do this case
Speaker 2: because I really need to find proof so we could
Speaker 2: get this lady in jail, And they were like, yeah,
Speaker 2: what affect your ability is like, okay, hold on the
Speaker 2: brain tumors thing real quick, I'm gonna solve this case.
Speaker 1: I'm like, god, damn, they're really into it. Oh I
Speaker 1: wanted to fuck that guy so bad. Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1: He's really he had something going on for himself, autism. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I liked it. Yeah, he was on this fast room.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But yeah, the way they.
Speaker 4: Found the pictures on the deleted SIM card, I was like, fuck,
Speaker 4: good job you guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was genuinely shocked. The murder yeah, basically on yeah,
Speaker 1: on the deleted SIM card.
Speaker 2: So just so you guys know, if you're planning a murder,
Speaker 2: even if you delete a SIM card, the FED still
Speaker 2: have a way to go back, Like you need to
Speaker 2: actually like permanently destroy it, like light it on fire
Speaker 2: or whatever. Because So what happens is that, you know,
Speaker 2: the first time Dave goes to work, and uh, after
Speaker 2: he goes to work, the after spending a couple of
Speaker 2: nights with Carrie. Uh, they've been dating for like two
Speaker 2: weeks at this point, Liz shows up and murders Carrie.
Speaker 2: But what happens is Carrie like sends a tech Carrie
Speaker 2: in quotes, yeah, sends a text message to Dave, that's like, hey,
Speaker 2: we should move in together, literally two weeks after they
Speaker 2: started dating, and he's like, no, I thought we talked
Speaker 2: about this.
Speaker 1: And then the fake carry you're ruining my lips out.
Speaker 1: She's like, you're ruining my life.
Speaker 2: And then she disappears, you know, He and and and
Speaker 2: he doesn't see her again, but she he starts hearing
Speaker 2: from her, and she's like harassing him. He's she's harassing.
Speaker 2: The kids say, harassing Liz. She's harassing, harassing the ex wife.
Speaker 2: But the whole time, it's original girl Liz posing as
Speaker 2: Carrie and going as far as to harass herself and the.
Speaker 1: Bit shooting herself the biggot in the fucking foot. She
Speaker 1: she does. Liz does shoot herself.
Speaker 2: But the biggest power move is Liz sets her own
Speaker 2: house on fire and kills her pet owned pets.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's how committed she is to being a fucking
Speaker 1: psychopath and framing dead Carrie.
Speaker 4: Dude, when they were questioning her and it was very
Speaker 4: clear that we were doing it, I'm like, you are
Speaker 4: on another planet, girlfriend.
Speaker 2: I know, and Dave seems so normal, and then when
Speaker 2: you see Liz being interviewed, you're like this woman is
Speaker 2: really unwell, not even hot.
Speaker 1: Nope, not even hot. She's probably good in bed though,
Speaker 1: because she's yeah, I mean not even I mean she
Speaker 1: and I guess, you know, as the time goes on.
Speaker 2: Well, the way they that one of the way that
Speaker 2: they catch her is they trace back the IP address,
Speaker 2: and she was using a lot of VPNs. Good to
Speaker 2: a smart lady, she was using a lot of VPNs,
Speaker 2: but the savvy bang ground.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: They finally trace it back, and they trace it.
Speaker 2: Back to another IT guy who works in the same
Speaker 2: space as the IT investigator, and they're like, Yo, this
Speaker 2: is my our fucking colleague so and so. And then
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden you start thinking like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, it did a man kill her? And then
Speaker 2: you find out that Liz started dating this IT colleague
Speaker 2: guy and has been using his IP address to send
Speaker 2: fake emails as Carrie, send fake test text messages as Carrie.
Speaker 2: And then they go back because they had had uh
Speaker 2: who carries car like, they found it eventually and it
Speaker 2: was just uh, they had what's the word when you
Speaker 2: just had been abandoned and they had looked at they
Speaker 2: did the spray thing for blood and they find nothing
Speaker 2: on the surface.
Speaker 1: This is another thing if you're going to commit a murder.
Speaker 1: To keith this in mind.
Speaker 2: So she had sat, she had cleaned the inside of
Speaker 2: the car really well so that nothing was showing up
Speaker 2: under the black light. But then what they did was
Speaker 2: they slit off the leather seats and looked at the
Speaker 2: cushion in between.
Speaker 1: The leather, and there was the blood.
Speaker 2: Steeds blood because it leaks through the little air holes
Speaker 2: in the seats, and so even if you clean the surface,
Speaker 2: a good investigator knows to slice the seat seats open.
Speaker 2: I was actually surprised it took them so long to
Speaker 2: slice the seats, So, yeah, that was weird. But she
Speaker 2: she really did try to cover her track for years.
Speaker 1: She was dumping around.
Speaker 4: I'm writing this bit a bit about this, but it
Speaker 4: reminded me of this idea of like, you know, everyone
Speaker 4: thinks serial killing and murdering is a man's game, but
Speaker 4: I think that's because men are the only ones who
Speaker 4: get fucking caught.
Speaker 1: Like women are much more sneaky. Think, oh bad men
Speaker 1: are at cheating.
Speaker 2: Now, they're so bad at it, and then all the murder,
Speaker 2: like they don't even try to fucking cover shit up.
Speaker 1: Uh, the way that a woman, Well, I think their
Speaker 1: rage clouds their ability to clean.
Speaker 4: Oh right, because you're thinking, brain is offline, yeah, thinking ahead.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but women women just aren't inherently as violent.
Speaker 2: But I think you are a woman who has the
Speaker 2: ability to actually murder someone, your ability to cover it up, Yes,
Speaker 2: I agree, would very much better.
Speaker 1: Also, we're just better at cleaning, you know, so much
Speaker 1: better at cleaning. Oh what a perk? Yeah, I mean that.
Speaker 2: So it was it was crazy, but yeah, I was
Speaker 2: just so alarmed by how quickly I knew exactly what
Speaker 2: was happening, and I wanted like I wanted to So
Speaker 2: if you watched it, how long did it take you
Speaker 2: to figure out exactly what was happening? Because I think
Speaker 2: it really is a good test of how fucking apeeshit
Speaker 2: crazy you are.
Speaker 1: I didn't know. I didn't know it out of my mind.
Speaker 4: I had a And then when they revealed like nothing
Speaker 4: was packed in Carrie's house, I was like, huh, that's weird. Yeah,
Speaker 4: maybe something weird's going on, but I didn't think it
Speaker 4: was Lizo's Carrie not Yeah, I thought something was weird.
Speaker 2: At that point when her house set on fire, I go, damn,
Speaker 2: this bitch set her own house on fire.
Speaker 1: Pets.
Speaker 2: No, well, the thing she's she's obviously. I was surprising me,
Speaker 2: like she's in jail for life now. But I was
Speaker 2: surprised they didn't. I mean, I guess that's why they
Speaker 2: didn't go into the case a ton and I wouldn't.
Speaker 2: I didn't look into it, uh further, but uh it
Speaker 2: seems like if I was defending her, I would be
Speaker 2: like plead insanity because she killed your own pets, So
Speaker 2: I would believe it. Yeah yeah, yeah, me too, Like
Speaker 2: there has to be something deeply wrong. I mean, like
Speaker 2: you're like like like she's like a sociopath or did
Speaker 2: they say she had a.
Speaker 1: History of doing this kind of ship or no? No,
Speaker 1: Dave's got that that good day d Yeah that that
Speaker 1: dick to bomb. Yeah, like Liz has it has.
Speaker 2: Kids and ship too, Oh right, yeah she does. Yeah, lizend,
Speaker 2: Liz kids, Carrie has son, they all had kids. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh huh, Well, because that was like they pointed that out.
Speaker 2: They were like Liz's kids weren't home when the apartments fire,
Speaker 2: but her pets were.
Speaker 1: Right right right right right her poor kids. Oh Jesus Christ,
Speaker 1: that's terrible. Well, women are capable of murder too.
Speaker 4: I'm always more interested in hearing about a woman murder
Speaker 4: just because you don't hear about him as often. And
Speaker 4: then I'm always humored by how much better they are
Speaker 4: at covering it up.
Speaker 1: You get caught too, but just not as much well.
Speaker 2: And then, like, what was interesting to me also was
Speaker 2: that the part of the film where Dave, you know,
Speaker 2: is really thinks Carrie set Liz's house on fire, and
Speaker 2: then that you know, in the sadness, like Liz and
Speaker 2: Dave get back together for a second, they run into
Speaker 2: each other's arms, So at that point you would think
Speaker 2: Liz like, we got god, you want stop the craziness, right,
Speaker 2: But then she moves away, saying that she's scared that
Speaker 2: Carrie's gonna do something else to her. So it's all
Speaker 2: about the attention for her, gets another boyfriend and doesn't
Speaker 2: talk to Dave.
Speaker 1: For a while. So it's like, do you want the
Speaker 1: Like It's like, yeah, you don't even specifically want David cy.
Speaker 4: She just wants chaos and she wants people to feel
Speaker 4: like scared, right, which is sociopathic.
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, because I'm like that's the weird part.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, you got him back.
Speaker 2: And also initially when Carrie, when fake Carrie says like, hey,
Speaker 2: do you want to move in together? And Dave immediately
Speaker 2: says no. Shouldn't that have made Liz feel happy? Right?
Speaker 2: But he didn't want to move in with the other chick, right,
Speaker 2: And she just wanted to fuck with him for fucking
Speaker 2: with him sake, Yeah, because that wasn't her goal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a psychological torture. Yeah, really really crazy shit. Hey,
Speaker 1: women could be pieces of shit.
Speaker 2: One of the crazier cases I've seen, because I've at
Speaker 2: this point, I've seen so much true crime.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is very interesting. I'm always so fascinated
Speaker 1: by human behavior.
Speaker 4: And I think one of the reasons why everybody loves
Speaker 4: crime stuff, and it's not just women, men love it too,
Speaker 4: is because look, if one person is capable of it,
Speaker 4: we're all capable of it, you know, you know what
Speaker 4: I mean, Like I good and bad. So I don't
Speaker 4: know that we are, though I believe we are capable
Speaker 4: of it, but we would stop ourselves.
Speaker 1: We would never get it. Like you think that we're
Speaker 1: I'm not capable that.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 1: I think it's within all of us. I think I
Speaker 1: didn't agree with everybody.
Speaker 2: No see Ever, ever since I went to Bodies the
Speaker 2: experiment and I and I uh the exhibition, sorry, and
Speaker 2: I saw the brains, I don't believe that we're all
Speaker 2: keeping I I do think there are certain levels of crimes,
Speaker 2: mostly in the serial killing sphere, that there is actually
Speaker 2: a difference in brain structure that everyone is not capable.
Speaker 2: I can tell you right now, I am not capable
Speaker 2: of setting my own house on fire and killing my animal.
Speaker 1: I am not capable. I'm zero percent capable of that.
Speaker 2: Well, I guess more of It's like, it's very intriguing
Speaker 2: that a human is capable of doing such things.
Speaker 1: It's just very fascinating.
Speaker 2: There are some people on this planet that I hate
Speaker 2: so much. I could not kill them. Yeah, I couldn't.
Speaker 1: I just I don't have it in me.
Speaker 2: And it's actually bad because it puts me at risk. Right,
Speaker 2: what if they were trying to kill you? No, I know,
Speaker 2: and I fear that I, even under those conditions that
Speaker 2: I couldn't.
Speaker 1: I don't know. If I could self defense, I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Maybe in the moment, if they're like literally running at me, maybe, right,
Speaker 2: That's what I'm thinking about. I just well, you know,
Speaker 2: if you're gonna stab or shoot or whatever in self defense,
Speaker 2: you get them in the legs or something or the
Speaker 2: hand so that.
Speaker 1: They can think stab someone. And that's another thing.
Speaker 2: Liz stab Carry to death, and even her mom it's
Speaker 2: not it's not funny at all.
Speaker 1: But even her mom.
Speaker 2: Points out, like she basically is like, man, why'd you
Speaker 2: have to stab my daughter? Like she's kind of like,
Speaker 2: couldn't you just like done something else? Yeah, And I'm
Speaker 2: like her one, dude, I hear you. Oh, and I
Speaker 2: thought the most interesting part for you was that, so
Speaker 2: Carrie's mom is interest is interviewed a lot throughout this
Speaker 2: and that's also how you know Carrie is dead the
Speaker 2: whole time, because it's like when they're not showing the
Speaker 2: po the part where.
Speaker 4: Her deceased husband was like, hey, Nance carries with me,
Speaker 4: and that's why we can use mediumship to solve crimes.
Speaker 1: Motherfuckers. They could also hear people's grief and it's the
Speaker 1: new future.
Speaker 2: Well, the problem the medium mediumship is there's so many
Speaker 2: Charlatans in this space. But like the thing was so
Speaker 2: her Carrie's dad had been dying of cancer right around
Speaker 2: the same time, Oh Harry went missing, and so at
Speaker 2: one point, Carrie's mom says, I had a really really
Speaker 2: vivid dream where my husband came to me and said,
Speaker 2: don't worry, carries with me and she's safe and I
Speaker 2: and the mom was like, oh fuck, and that brought
Speaker 2: them up. Well. I think that brought the mom peace though,
Speaker 2: because I think when you have a child missing for
Speaker 2: so long, you kind of know they're dead, and then
Speaker 2: it's like the living in that limbo is very difficult,
Speaker 2: even when you're waiting for someone to die, like with
Speaker 2: my when I was waiting for It feels weird to
Speaker 2: say that, but like, you know he's dying, and it's
Speaker 2: like that limbo is the the my I was. I
Speaker 2: damaged my teeth. I had so much anxiety during that
Speaker 2: time because I was clenching so much. Like my I
Speaker 2: showed up to the dentist and my dentist is like,
Speaker 2: what the fuck happened to your mouth? And I go, sorry,
Speaker 2: my dad was dying for the past year and so
Speaker 2: I was clenching my job. But yeah, that that that
Speaker 2: state of limbo is even more unpleasant than knowing that
Speaker 2: your daughter was murdered. I think you just don't know
Speaker 2: what the fuck is going on, and you just feel
Speaker 2: so lost and so helpless.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was fascinating. Yeah she said that, and I
Speaker 4: was like, oh fuck, oh that you know what. That
Speaker 4: was the moment where I was like, that was the
Speaker 4: moment where I was like, all right, she's definitely dead.
Speaker 4: Then oh yeah, like not without a doubt, like that's true.
Speaker 4: It was so clear it just doesn't happen. Yeah, I
Speaker 4: was like, that's one hundred.
Speaker 2: But that's like when my childhood best friend came to
Speaker 2: me and or I guess maybe it was like my
Speaker 2: dad coming to me and be like check on I
Speaker 2: don't want to say check on so and so, and
Speaker 2: then I was like yeah, I mean like that was
Speaker 2: a fucking message. I wasn't fully asleep, but it was
Speaker 2: like right at the early morning, right at the early morning,
Speaker 2: it was like woke me up, and I'm like, I
Speaker 2: totally believe in that stuff. Yeah yeah, yeah, damn, oh damn,
Speaker 2: crazy crazy, crazyzy shit.
Speaker 1: All right, guys, now it's time for more crazy shit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's get into it.
Speaker 4: Her personal essays, they've appeared in a lot of places
Speaker 4: like The Cut, Time magazine and Rompert. She is the
Speaker 4: author of the book More a Memoir of an Open Marriage.
Speaker 4: Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the show. Molly wrote
Speaker 4: in Winter.
Speaker 3: Kay.
Speaker 6: The world.
Speaker 1: Ffecle see.
Speaker 6: Ooh bospacy for something at Travi Library more who innophe
Speaker 6: ratrabili si long saven cares o man.
Speaker 4: Okay, guys, we are here with author Molly Rode in Winter.
Speaker 4: You have a book out right now called me More
Speaker 4: Mammore of an Open Marriage. I was reading the inside
Speaker 4: cover the Little Flat, and I was like, this is
Speaker 4: fucking juicy. It feels like a graphic Sorry, graphic novels
Speaker 4: about to happen. Can you go over a little bit
Speaker 4: for us, like uh the uh being in an open marriage,
Speaker 4: being polyamorous? Like how that came about?
Speaker 5: Yeah, well it was kind of a long journey to
Speaker 5: get there. So I didn't use that term open marriage.
Speaker 5: I didn't even I mean, I certainly didn't use the
Speaker 5: term polyamorous because one of my initial rules was no
Speaker 5: falling in love.
Speaker 1: That was never my goal.
Speaker 5: In fact, I thought loving more than one person was
Speaker 5: to be avoided at all costs.
Speaker 1: Me too. Why did you think that I thought that?
Speaker 5: Because I thought that that meant that there would be
Speaker 5: not enough love for me. If he loved somebody else,
Speaker 5: or if I loved somebody else, then I would want
Speaker 5: to leave him right and I'd blow up my life.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, yeah, So either me loving somebody or him
Speaker 5: loving somebody both seemed really dangerous possibilities. Yeah, So Polly
Speaker 5: was never like my goal, and I thought of that
Speaker 5: as kind of a you know, fringe, kind of crazy
Speaker 5: thing that some people were able to do and I
Speaker 5: never would. So, like, my initial title for the book
Speaker 5: was actually the Experiment, because that's the way it kind
Speaker 5: of felt at first, like we were embarking on a
Speaker 5: sort of dangerous experiment.
Speaker 1: Which makes that's fun, keeps you on your toes.
Speaker 2: That's also how we described this podcast enough when we
Speaker 2: started it, like for real, we kind of described it
Speaker 2: as a social experiment because back in the day we
Speaker 2: were actually interviewing guys, we had fucked guys, we had
Speaker 2: relationships with the origin and you know, and asking like
Speaker 2: ten years later, you know, yeah, so that's very interesting
Speaker 2: that for the for you to be sitting here now saying.
Speaker 1: That experiments are good, they're important conclusions.
Speaker 5: Exactly right, It's all very scientific. Yeah, I didn't really
Speaker 5: have like a control group per se, But I say,
Speaker 5: like the rest of society might be considered the control group.
Speaker 5: See how monogamy is going and by comparison is good. Yeah,
Speaker 5: that's kind of my feeling.
Speaker 4: So, so, you were on you were at a you
Speaker 4: were out, and you were asked out by a guy,
Speaker 4: and you were at this point, you were in a
Speaker 4: closed marriage, you were monogamous with your husband, you had
Speaker 4: kids right at the time, and a guy asks you out.
Speaker 4: You come home and tell your husband, and your husband
Speaker 4: is like, go do it. I beat my heart sank
Speaker 4: when I read that, cause I'm like, fucking go do it. Well,
Speaker 4: you don't love me, But I know that's the immature response.
Speaker 4: I'm curious what you felt when you heard the room first.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I mean it wasn't coming out of nowhere.
Speaker 5: There was some precedent that was kind of like deeply
Speaker 5: buried in my memories of our before times, like before
Speaker 5: we got married, before I had two kids, and so
Speaker 5: when we first started dating, I had had like very
Speaker 5: very few partners, and my husband had had like fuck
Speaker 5: the city, yes very much. So yeah, yeah, and five
Speaker 5: of his ex girlfriends were at our wedding, which I
Speaker 5: thought was actually like a pretty good testament to like
Speaker 5: people still wanted to hang out with him, you know,
Speaker 5: and he always said to me like, there's no way
Speaker 5: you're going to be okay with only sleeping with me
Speaker 5: for the rest of your life. I was also five
Speaker 5: years younger, and I was like, I was like, all, well,
Speaker 5: you know, what do you mean, mister, Yeah, I love.
Speaker 3: You, you know.
Speaker 5: But by the time he was like go for it,
Speaker 5: I was like, yep, that's what I want to do, okay,
Speaker 5: But I didn't really I hadn't admitted it to myself.
Speaker 5: So we had been married at that point for nine years,
Speaker 5: together for almost twelve, I had kids that were three
Speaker 5: and six, you know what I mean. It's like we
Speaker 5: had gotten to a place where I was not feeling
Speaker 5: my best, to put it mildly, way, I was not
Speaker 5: I didn't feel like a whole person. I felt like
Speaker 5: I was this I was the role of mother more
Speaker 5: than anything else. And so it shocked me. Actually in
Speaker 5: that moment when I when I felt desire, it wasn't
Speaker 5: just that a guy asked me out. It was that
Speaker 5: I flirted all night with a guy and was like
Speaker 5: really experiencing desire for the first time in a long time.
Speaker 1: So electrifying. Yeah, desire, desire.
Speaker 5: Especially because like for a lot of moms, they think
Speaker 5: that is done for ever.
Speaker 1: Oh that a death sentence. Isn't that that terrible? I
Speaker 1: know really they just kind of go, well, I guess
Speaker 1: it's it.
Speaker 5: Well, I'll tell you. I mean, I feel like this
Speaker 5: this podcast, this episode could be called like reasons to
Speaker 5: never have children, but like, oh yeah, well a lot of.
Speaker 2: People where a lot of people say that about about
Speaker 2: what we talk about, but we we like to frame
Speaker 2: it as this is other options available to women podcasts.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I think it's super important because I'm here
Speaker 5: to spread the gospel that you can be a mother
Speaker 5: and a whole fucking person.
Speaker 1: And I feel like that that is not.
Speaker 5: Something that is even imagined by a lot of women
Speaker 5: because I don't ever want to lose my relationship with
Speaker 5: my sexuality.
Speaker 1: And I know that in twenty years I might think.
Speaker 2: Differently, but right now, like I never want to see
Speaker 2: like seeing myself as a sexual being is not all
Speaker 2: of who I am, but I would never want to
Speaker 2: put that on a shelf, nor should you, Nor should
Speaker 2: you One of the things that we've talked about. I mean,
Speaker 2: here's just an example, but like you know, Kim Kardashian
Speaker 2: still posting a pictures of herself in a bikini. When
Speaker 2: you look at the comments on Twitter about she should
Speaker 2: stop doing that because she's a mom, it drives me
Speaker 2: over the edge. Nothing will make me angrier. And I
Speaker 2: really loved I heard you your interview on the New
Speaker 2: York Times Book Review podcast, and when you were speaking
Speaker 2: about the concept of children being important for them to
Speaker 2: see their parents as whole people. I thought, now that's
Speaker 2: the thing I'd like to talk about for an hour.
Speaker 2: I think that's really really important, and society just doesn't
Speaker 2: get it. Like, once you're a mom, you're a mom,
Speaker 2: and you have to somehow be a different person. You
Speaker 2: have to be this angelic version. It's almost like we're
Speaker 2: going back to the purity that you experience as a
Speaker 2: young woman. And it's really repulsive, I think as societally
Speaker 2: it's Yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean, we could talk about it from so many
Speaker 5: different angles and it would be the same message that
Speaker 5: women are being asked to and not asked to, forced
Speaker 5: to make themselves smaller and less and until we fully
Speaker 5: you know embody our whole selves all the time, right,
Speaker 5: not just for a few years. Not just when we're
Speaker 5: like out with our friends at the bar, but like
Speaker 5: all the time, society as a whole is going to
Speaker 5: suffer because my belief is that it's feminine energy that's
Speaker 5: gonna save us, and we are being slowly strangled.
Speaker 1: I agree with that. Oh fuck, that's heavy, but that's true.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's I had this. I was trying to
Speaker 4: make this a joke a while ago on my step.
Speaker 4: But like when women are horny, everyone's happy.
Speaker 2: Like when women have a healthy sexual desire and a
Speaker 2: healthy sex life, when their sex life is going the
Speaker 2: way that they wanted to go, which if they're a
Speaker 2: sexual they don't want it to go, but like however
Speaker 2: they wanted to go.
Speaker 1: If it's going, well the world is peaceful. Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 1: When only men are horny, no one's happy. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: for sure.
Speaker 5: I mean that is just you know, it's a great
Speaker 5: rule of thumb to live by.
Speaker 4: Well, there's something so powerful about a woman that really
Speaker 4: like make sure that every area of her life is
Speaker 4: taken care of, because you don't see it that often.
Speaker 5: I have to say, if you haven't read it yet,
Speaker 5: read Eliselanan's on Our Best Behavior and her chapter on lust.
Speaker 5: She interviewed me at my reading in LA and I
Speaker 5: was reading her book and finished it on the plane
Speaker 5: on the way home, and it's freaking amazing. It's all
Speaker 5: about like the Gospel of Mary Magdalene got buried, Like
Speaker 5: Mary Magdalene.
Speaker 1: Actually was not a whore. She was, Like I wasn't.
Speaker 2: No, I'm not surprised podcast maybe she was, but that
Speaker 2: was a good thing. What I mean, like, maybe I
Speaker 2: love Mary Maglin.
Speaker 5: Because she was a who I like, I don't want to.
Speaker 1: I don't want to, Jesus.
Speaker 5: But my point is that women's sexuality has been revered
Speaker 5: for millennia, and it's it's just, you know, quite recently
Speaker 5: in human history that it's been demonized, and I think
Speaker 5: it's time to like set the record straight across the board. Yeah,
Speaker 5: me too, and mothers. You know, it's an easy target.
Speaker 5: It's like it's like part of the reason that you
Speaker 5: don't feel very sexual after you have a baby is
Speaker 5: because you just had a human ripped out of your vagina.
Speaker 1: Body trauma, right, Yeah, you need a second And it's
Speaker 1: not like it's.
Speaker 5: All medicalized and it's all you know, there's there's a
Speaker 5: lot we could say about the birthing process. I'm not
Speaker 5: really I'm all for all the drugs and all the
Speaker 5: interventions because I'm not like so into pain your body,
Speaker 5: your choice exactly. I like the interventions, but I also
Speaker 5: feel like I was at my it was kind of
Speaker 5: this weird thing. This is the other thing I want
Speaker 5: to say, though, I feel like motherhood. Another thing we
Speaker 5: don't talk about is like I was at I was
Speaker 5: extremely horning when I was pregnant.
Speaker 1: Ooh that's fun. See that makes me want to have
Speaker 1: a baby.
Speaker 5: And this, I mean, thank god, my kids will never
Speaker 5: listen to this podcast. But like I was like close
Speaker 5: to our gasmic from breastfeeding. Oh cool, really breast weird.
Speaker 5: But I know it's super super super weird.
Speaker 2: And now you ask for obiguan about that, like if
Speaker 2: they told what if they told me it was like bad,
Speaker 2: Like no, I was pretty sure it was nature's way
Speaker 2: of making sure it didn't starve my babies.
Speaker 5: Like I was like, oh, it felt amazing why.
Speaker 2: Some people could have orgasms from their nipples being touched.
Speaker 2: I can wait, sorry, okay, yeah, yeah, no, it's amazing.
Speaker 1: That's so, but you always know.
Speaker 5: That it's actually it's become more recent actually that it's
Speaker 5: that I've let it happen again, and I never let
Speaker 5: it happen when my babies were little, right, you know,
Speaker 5: when I was nursing, it felt wrong, but it also felt.
Speaker 1: It felt weird.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you're not sexualizing the baby. It's just like, oh,
Speaker 4: when the baby does this thing, why am I really aroused?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 5: Of course, just because you're supposed to feed your baby, right,
Speaker 5: and you're supposed to want to feed your baby. That's
Speaker 5: why sex feels good. I make a baby, right, we
Speaker 5: forget we forget that sex feels good and nursing it's.
Speaker 2: Incentive from the lor thanks, go wow, why don't I
Speaker 2: want to come one waiting? It makes well you know
Speaker 2: what though, because the one thing I so every week
Speaker 2: on the show, I want a kid, and then the
Speaker 2: next week I don't want a baby for various reasons.
Speaker 5: Fair, No, I feel that way, you know the times. Yeah.
Speaker 4: One of the reasons why I'm like, I don't think
Speaker 4: I want a baby this week is because you gotta
Speaker 4: get up in the middle of the fucking night to
Speaker 4: feed it. I'm really cranky and I can't think. But
Speaker 4: I'm like, that's interesting if breastfeeding caused some sort of arousal.
Speaker 4: I can understand. I've not been in I don't have
Speaker 4: a baby, but like you wouldn't sexualize the baby. It's
Speaker 4: just a feeling that comes with the thing, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would make me get up.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 5: There's this thing you know where that you can like
Speaker 5: once you figure it out, where you can like lie
Speaker 5: in the bed and they can just like nurse all nightline.
Speaker 5: It's just it's just nice. Yeah, it's actually it was
Speaker 5: just like it's just pleasant. It's very pleasant.
Speaker 2: That's good because I hear I feel some people have
Speaker 2: a lot of experience a lot of pain while breast.
Speaker 1: And you're not supposed to.
Speaker 5: So that means that they are not like getting the
Speaker 5: wisdom they need from the women that they need to
Speaker 5: get it from.
Speaker 1: That's yeah, that's.
Speaker 4: Gonna be interesting to feel like an arousal type of feeling. Well, also,
Speaker 4: like the power of how beautiful it is to watch
Speaker 4: the baby that was just inside you get life force
Speaker 4: food from your body, Like.
Speaker 1: That's so cool.
Speaker 5: It's super freaking cool. And it's really hard because we
Speaker 5: make it hard in our culture, you know what I mean.
Speaker 5: It's not like there's space for women to do that
Speaker 5: or like or like maternity leave even though I was
Speaker 5: a teacher, you know, not paid.
Speaker 1: No, oh nine, teachers are so abused. I mean maybe
Speaker 1: two weeks.
Speaker 5: But like, yeah, when my mother, my mother was a teacher,
Speaker 5: and when she had my sister, No, and when she
Speaker 5: had me, she only got maternity leave for the weeks
Speaker 5: she had the flu. She had the flu when she
Speaker 5: had me. Oh, so she got paid because she had
Speaker 5: the flu, not because she had a baby.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, this country.
Speaker 5: Anyway, we digress a whole different episode I industry.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I want to go I want to kind
Speaker 1: of go back.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of interesting parts to this, but I
Speaker 2: think go back to the part in earlier in the
Speaker 2: conversation where you said, when you set out on this
Speaker 2: open marriage, the number one rule was not to fall
Speaker 2: in love.
Speaker 1: That was your cardinal rule.
Speaker 2: Even hearing someone say that, whether or not how I know,
Speaker 2: I know how it turns out ultimately, But even if
Speaker 2: I didn't know how it turned it out ultimately, to me,
Speaker 2: it's like, immediately I'm thinking, well, that's an impossible rule
Speaker 2: to set. Anyone who's ever been in love knows that
Speaker 2: you really don't have control over it. You can try,
Speaker 2: you can not act on it, but you can't make
Speaker 2: your stop stop feeling the love. So did you did
Speaker 2: you truly think that you could not could that you
Speaker 2: could like not have any like not have your husband
Speaker 2: fall in love, and that you could not have you
Speaker 2: fall in love?
Speaker 6: Did you?
Speaker 1: How are you going to go about that?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 5: So you're I mean, it doesn't sound real smart, No,
Speaker 5: And like, looking back, part of the reason I wrote
Speaker 5: the book in present tense was so that I was
Speaker 5: really like forcing myself to write from that place. And like,
Speaker 5: I'm sure it was wishful thinking, but all the other
Speaker 5: rules we had, I think were just designed to prevent
Speaker 5: me from falling in love right like, or to prevent
Speaker 5: him from so like no dating the same person twice
Speaker 5: in one week, or no sleepovers or no you know
Speaker 5: what I mean. It was like designed to kind of
Speaker 5: minimize all the contact that existed, the anxiety intimacy.
Speaker 2: Such a you really got to contend with your own
Speaker 2: ego when you're like, am I my husband's favorite person?
Speaker 1: Because I fucking better be like what.
Speaker 2: I want to be your favorite? Even if you saw
Speaker 2: a love of other people, I'm your favorite. And if
Speaker 2: that ever changes, we're not together, but don't you have
Speaker 2: a little bit of an interest? Like for me, like
Speaker 2: I like to leave it on the table. I go yeah,
Speaker 2: I like to be like, yeah, try and fall in
Speaker 2: love with somebody else because I don't I don't mind
Speaker 2: if that is there for them, because I want to
Speaker 2: feel so certain that I'm their favorite person that even
Speaker 2: if they come into contact with other people that they
Speaker 2: really like, that I still will like rather than like
Speaker 2: hiding the you know, hiding my husband or my partner
Speaker 2: from the world.
Speaker 1: Well for sure, but I know the way men are
Speaker 1: when you get a crush.
Speaker 4: When you get a crush, it's so electrifying, it's all consuming.
Speaker 4: I couldn't imagine paying attention to my husband while also
Speaker 4: being in love with somebody else. I'd be like, you
Speaker 4: don't exist to me right now, husband, because I want
Speaker 4: to get into.
Speaker 5: That that is short lived though, like think like, of course,
Speaker 5: in polyamory, they always have terms for everything, and in
Speaker 5: the Ethical Slush which I was reading, and I you know,
Speaker 5: not at the beginning, but you know, during my journey,
Speaker 5: there's something called new relationship energy. And it doesn't make
Speaker 5: it any easier to know that, but it's like duh
Speaker 5: of course there's new relationship energy, like, yeah, all the
Speaker 5: good things and none of the bad.
Speaker 1: Thing you don't know their flaws yet.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and once you run, you've like I've rode that
Speaker 5: wave so many times now with my husband and he
Speaker 5: has with me that like it's still lovely to feel it,
Speaker 5: but I don't feel I think what you're describing CRANT
Speaker 5: is like very healthy self esteem.
Speaker 1: Actually it's like, wow, you nailed it the only time,
Speaker 1: everybody everything, it's.
Speaker 5: A pretty freaking big one.
Speaker 1: Well done where I can.
Speaker 5: Wow, you don't even have like an inflated sense of self.
Speaker 5: You know that you can't sing, I can't say you're the.
Speaker 1: First guest to come on and really get current, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you don't even know that's awesome?
Speaker 5: All right, well done, well done, unless you're mocking no, no, no,
Speaker 5: you're just saying that no, no, no.
Speaker 1: Good self esteem. It goes a long way.
Speaker 5: I did not have such self esteem, and I thought,
Speaker 5: oh no, he's not going to love me enough, and
Speaker 5: that's going to love somebody else. But that was what
Speaker 5: my journey really ended up being a discovery that oh
Speaker 5: I can't outsource love. I can't outsource my self esteem.
Speaker 5: I can't outsource my happiness. If I can't give these
Speaker 5: things to myself, I will never have them. They'll be
Speaker 5: sleeping no matter no matter who I think is giving
Speaker 5: them to me or should be giving them to me.
Speaker 5: So that's really, you know, spoiler alert, that's kind of
Speaker 5: where I landed, and it's I had to show in
Speaker 5: the book how that happened because it kind of felt
Speaker 5: like magic. I was, like, felt counterintuitive, like how did
Speaker 5: that happen? And part of my wanting to write the
Speaker 5: book was also my wanting to trace how the hell
Speaker 5: did I get from there to hear?
Speaker 2: You know, I wasn't sure what Another interesting part is
Speaker 2: that your parents had an open marriage that you learn
Speaker 2: about after the birth of your oldest child.
Speaker 5: Yeah. I learned about it a year before he was
Speaker 5: but I didn't talk to my mother about it until
Speaker 5: after he was born because I just held on to
Speaker 5: it because my aunt told me that she had had
Speaker 5: an affair, and my mother used the word affair too.
Speaker 5: They also didn't use the term open marriage. They felt
Speaker 5: like they were inventing something new.
Speaker 2: Right, It feels more illicit when they talk about it
Speaker 2: like that, whereas no, this was something they discussed, they planned,
Speaker 2: they knew about nominogamy.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, But I also think my mother is still
Speaker 5: struggling with self esteem issues.
Speaker 1: I think she'd be one of the first to admit.
Speaker 2: It, like she because because of the March dynemic, or
Speaker 2: because she grew up in a world where women were
Speaker 2: treated like way more trash than we are now.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, very likely and truly go home and clean.
Speaker 1: What are you doing with those dreams?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, for real.
Speaker 5: I mean she didn't start therapy until I told her
Speaker 5: she had to after she got diagnosed with Parkinson's. I
Speaker 5: don't know, maybe ten years.
Speaker 1: Your parents are really evolved. They are your mom specifically,
Speaker 1: My mom is very evolved.
Speaker 5: She's also she she is such a big fan of
Speaker 5: the you know, she's simultaneously terrified or was terrified. She's
Speaker 5: getting a lot better with it, it's only been out
Speaker 5: for a month, but terrified about my writing the book,
Speaker 5: and also so proud of me and excited for me
Speaker 5: that I am able to do this.
Speaker 2: Is she projecting her own fears based on having lived
Speaker 2: a similar life.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I mean she's afraid of what people think,
Speaker 5: and she doesn't understand that about herself. We have a
Speaker 5: lot of conversations about like little self big self, Like
Speaker 5: your little self is afraid, your big self feels like
Speaker 5: pride and certainty in your choices, and you know has
Speaker 5: like a beautiful worldview. But it's like it's I think
Speaker 5: it's this constant battle that you know, it's a human thing,
Speaker 5: not just a female thing. But maybe females get it
Speaker 5: a little harder, this battle between little self big self.
Speaker 1: It's it's a conversation.
Speaker 5: We have a lot.
Speaker 1: Wow, it's so cool. Do you do you think?
Speaker 2: I mean, was there something in the air in the
Speaker 2: household you grew up in? Is there kids be genetically?
Speaker 2: I just find it fascinating that you kind of it's
Speaker 2: for you to want to be in an open marriage
Speaker 2: and your parents to be in an open marriage. It
Speaker 2: feels like almost like a nature versus nurture conversation, even
Speaker 2: though I don't.
Speaker 1: Think that it is.
Speaker 2: But was there looking back now on how you were raised,
Speaker 2: the converse stations that were happening in your household, is
Speaker 2: there any signs of why why you might have chosen this?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've thought about it. I mean, my sister definitely no,
Speaker 5: like my parents. My mother told my sister when I
Speaker 5: was going to when the book was going to come out, you.
Speaker 2: Know what I mean.
Speaker 5: I was like, you've got to tell my sister, you know,
Speaker 5: because they never talked about it, so it was not sex,
Speaker 5: was not a conversation. The one thing I will say
Speaker 5: is that I knew that my mother had a special
Speaker 5: friendship with a man and a guy.
Speaker 1: Special friend right, and it's a lady named Cindy.
Speaker 5: But I feel like there was something about that friendship
Speaker 5: that that I did kind of aspire to, you know
Speaker 5: what I mean, there was something freer about you noticed too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just going to say, maybe you notice
Speaker 2: your mom was a little happier when when the special
Speaker 2: friend came around.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, I like this new mom.
Speaker 5: It was especially I have a scene in the book
Speaker 5: where she's on the phone with him like a back
Speaker 5: like she would laugh in a very specific way with him,
Speaker 5: and he cracked her up like nobody else, and it
Speaker 5: was like landline days. So she'd be like sitting at
Speaker 5: the phone table just like unable to breathe because she
Speaker 5: was laughing so Hardhe Yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Know they still have the phone table.
Speaker 5: I have one of my house I grew up in
Speaker 5: very more even though it's like they still have the
Speaker 5: cordless but but they still stand right next to it.
Speaker 5: It's create all because they're in their eighties, but anyway,
Speaker 5: but it's like it's there's a sweetness to that. And
Speaker 5: and my father also, although he doesn't tell me much,
Speaker 5: I did, you know, learn a little more in the
Speaker 5: last few months about his past relationships. And they both
Speaker 5: have people in their lives that they were once intimate
Speaker 5: with that are friends now. And I think there's something
Speaker 5: about that. And I think there that's another thing that
Speaker 5: I've been I think this you know, kind of influx
Speaker 5: infusion of talking about polyamory has made people talk about
Speaker 5: lots of other kinds of intimacy, like like friendships that
Speaker 5: are not saying you know what I mean, like the
Speaker 5: idea that oh, men and women can still be friends
Speaker 5: with each other too onlike Mike pen saying like yeah,
Speaker 5: I could never.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's like that's damaging to our society too.
Speaker 2: Like I know, right, I was saying on this show,
Speaker 2: no girl, man wants to be your friend. I want
Speaker 2: to clean about but it's when in doubt, no girl.
Speaker 2: It's more of that that speaks more to not that
Speaker 2: men can and women can't be friends more that a
Speaker 2: lot of straight men can't be trusted to not just
Speaker 2: want sex.
Speaker 5: They don't know how, they don't know how to like
Speaker 5: do the emotion.
Speaker 2: The straight guys female friend wanted to fuck them, he'd
Speaker 2: probably say yes if it was on the table.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's also understood, also understood. But I also think that,
Speaker 5: like my husband has gotten he's always had female friends.
Speaker 5: Like I said, there are five ex girlfriends at our wedding,
Speaker 5: but like that was one of his selling points to
Speaker 5: me actually, and the fact that he has more women
Speaker 5: in his life now, Like I think of them now
Speaker 5: very differently than I used to.
Speaker 1: I used to think of this.
Speaker 5: As like a threat, but now they're like I'm like, uh,
Speaker 5: just you know, ask Kiewe what she thinks so that
Speaker 5: I'm sure she'll set you straight. Like I'm tired, I
Speaker 5: don't want to tell you. I don't want to tell
Speaker 5: you the same thing nine million times, and you're like
Speaker 5: sister wives.
Speaker 1: Now we're all on the say it, like what was it?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 2: I'm curious what it was like when you first had
Speaker 2: sex with somebody outside of your marriage, But I'm more
Speaker 2: curious about what was it.
Speaker 1: Like when you started falling in love with somebody. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like were you annoyed that your husband was there?
Speaker 2: I feel like i'd be so I'd be so one
Speaker 2: track minded of like all I give ish is being
Speaker 2: this person that I'm falling in love with, because that's
Speaker 2: so exciting at this time.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, there's like the thing that I still
Speaker 5: it's like this is so deeply ingrained in us. It's
Speaker 5: more about my kids that I felt like that's healthy.
Speaker 5: I didn't want to think about. I didn't want to
Speaker 5: like if I into the playground or whatever, like you
Speaker 5: start going into autopilot at a certain point anyway, you
Speaker 5: know what I mean. Like now I walk past a playground,
Speaker 5: I'm like, oh, I remember the sandbox, And then I
Speaker 5: have to slap myself and be like, well, you fucking
Speaker 5: hated the sandbox. It was awful stop like z yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: like romanticizing like I remember and like, yeah, I loved
Speaker 5: when they were little, but I love now that they're older,
Speaker 5: and like I can go out with my oldest and
Speaker 5: like split a bottle of wine and like talk about
Speaker 5: real shit. Like that's nice too, But I feel like
Speaker 5: I felt this guilt more that like I was thinking
Speaker 5: about like another man when I should be giving my
Speaker 5: full attention to my kids. But at the same time,
Speaker 5: so it was like this battle inside of me, but
Speaker 5: at the same time it was it wasn't doing them
Speaker 5: any favors. When I was walking around kind of a
Speaker 5: walking migrain, as you know, I think I was for
Speaker 5: several years there because I was just pent up to
Speaker 5: such a degree, pens up from what exactly, pent up
Speaker 5: from trying to be perfect, pent from I mean, I
Speaker 5: live in park Slope, you know.
Speaker 2: What I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I read that. I'm like, God, that's all images, like,
Speaker 1: I know, what kind of stroller.
Speaker 2: Do you have?
Speaker 1: Like the new egg stroller?
Speaker 5: And I kind of prided myself and I like making
Speaker 5: friends with people who were also kind of anti park Slope,
Speaker 5: even though there we were.
Speaker 1: The best is to be anti parkslope. In parks.
Speaker 5: It's like, let's go into the tree lined street and
Speaker 5: talk about how stupid everybody's like a point of pride
Speaker 5: that I never joined the food co op and I
Speaker 5: went Parkslope parents once and then I was like this
Speaker 5: is stupid. Yeah, But I was also like, yeah, I
Speaker 5: just felt so hemmed into this role that I was like,
Speaker 5: and I have such a kind of perfectionist, you know,
Speaker 5: tendency in me anyway, which is very common I think
Speaker 5: for a lot of women that I just didn't I
Speaker 5: didn't recognize what was happening because I also love my
Speaker 5: you know, it's like the thing you're supposed to say,
Speaker 5: but it's also true. I love my kids.
Speaker 1: My kids are awesome.
Speaker 5: They were also really it was really difficult having two
Speaker 5: kids and having like trying to be a person at
Speaker 5: the same time, because I didn't you know, they.
Speaker 2: Always want something from you. They always sometimes you don't
Speaker 2: want to fucking want anybody to want.
Speaker 1: Something from you for a second.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and they want something from you all the time.
Speaker 5: And it's always the mom yep, like the dad thing.
Speaker 5: It's like, yeah, let's go get nat shows and play
Speaker 5: in the arcade.
Speaker 1: Yeah cool. I wish my Like I feel like if
Speaker 1: I was the brother, why don't you want that from me?
Speaker 1: I want to do fun shit. I don't want to
Speaker 1: just pack your lunch.
Speaker 5: Yeah. They want you to like wipe their butt.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: It's like a lot of I mean it's like years
Speaker 2: of ass wiping, yeah, right, years. Well, and there's a
Speaker 2: so there's a book that kind of talks about this, well,
Speaker 2: a part of it. There's a book called Getting to
Speaker 2: Idea that we've talked about many times on this show.
Speaker 2: It's primarily about masculine and feminine energy and how you
Speaker 2: can use that to me, you know, meet a person.
Speaker 2: But part of what the author talks about in the
Speaker 2: beginning is that a mom really should only be prioritizing
Speaker 2: the kid. I believe she said two to three years
Speaker 2: at the top of it, and then you should put
Speaker 2: self first again. And many mothers make the mistake of
Speaker 2: not going back to the place where they put self
Speaker 2: first again.
Speaker 1: And so the kid is like.
Speaker 2: Eighteen years old, do you remember when you made the
Speaker 2: switch to put self first?
Speaker 1: Has that happened?
Speaker 5: Like I think it was the moment that I met
Speaker 5: Matt in the book, because my little one was three,
Speaker 5: you know what I mean. Yeah, and my youngest love him,
Speaker 5: love him, love him sweety. But he was like he
Speaker 5: had like special like he needed therapies when he was
Speaker 5: a little kid. Like he's fine now he was extra
Speaker 5: doing great, Yeah, anymore a lot, and so he would
Speaker 5: it be the first two minute. That's partly why he
Speaker 5: is the coolest person you are now.
Speaker 4: Usually they grow up to be like pretty chill, awesome
Speaker 4: people when he's always fascinating the best.
Speaker 5: So I would never turn back time or have any
Speaker 5: it any other way. But like he was, he was
Speaker 5: also a needy little guy. Yeah, and so you know,
Speaker 5: then you have your first, and when your first turns three,
Speaker 5: then you have your second in my case, and then
Speaker 5: you've got another three years. So there's the six years
Speaker 5: right there, even if you prioritize, even if you try.
Speaker 5: But I love that advice. I think it's brilliant. I
Speaker 5: think that's what I did, but I think I harbored
Speaker 5: a lot of guilt about it. I think I started
Speaker 5: putting myself. Yeah, I think I started putting myself in
Speaker 5: that moment because I felt like if I don't, I'm
Speaker 5: going to implode or it's I felt it something deep
Speaker 5: inside me that it wasn't wasn't serving my Not only
Speaker 5: was it not serving myself. The only way I could
Speaker 5: kind of like give myself permission was to also be like,
Speaker 5: this isn't because it's not good for me, it's not
Speaker 5: good for my kids, like the old oxygen.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, you know, but like I.
Speaker 5: Could tell there was something in me that needed this
Speaker 5: and I and I couldn't stop following that kind of
Speaker 5: good fall the polls. Yeah, I felt following the poll Yeah.
Speaker 2: Because we've all I think we've all met someone and
Speaker 2: some of us have this person as my mom. I don't,
Speaker 2: but like the person who's one hundred percent momming from
Speaker 2: the day that she was a mom, and like, it's
Speaker 2: not a good energy.
Speaker 1: It's because then much on the TI, yes, you're so
Speaker 1: wrapped up. The kid doesn't it's not going to grow
Speaker 1: up to be kind of fucked up in some little way.
Speaker 4: And then but then the mom's gonna take everything the
Speaker 4: kid does personally because it's like, well, you are an
Speaker 4: extension of me.
Speaker 1: It's like, no, girl, you should have you should have
Speaker 1: separated yourself.
Speaker 5: A while back, No, I wrote an essay called leave
Speaker 5: your children before they leave you because because I have
Speaker 5: this moment I love ye dropping my Youngesttaff at college,
Speaker 5: Like I cried for a minute, but now I'm having
Speaker 5: a pretty good time. But then then he like didn't
Speaker 5: call for a few days. So I just talked to
Speaker 5: him today and I was like, oh, you know what
Speaker 5: I mean, Like.
Speaker 1: I have to hear from this guy.
Speaker 6: Nice to miss you.
Speaker 5: It's nice to miss you. I'm I'm glad you don't
Speaker 5: need to call me for five days. That means you're happy. Wow, sure, mom,
Speaker 5: God look, I have my own life, I know.
Speaker 3: God.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think part of it, like I have a
Speaker 1: I don't talk to my mom anymore.
Speaker 4: But we have such a tumultuous relationship with my dad too,
Speaker 4: And I think part of it is because they don't
Speaker 4: have their own fucking lives.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, if you just got a hobby that
Speaker 1: you were.
Speaker 2: Excited about, that you were passionate about, you wouldn't be
Speaker 2: criticizing me all damn day.
Speaker 1: And it's like, it's better for all of us if
Speaker 1: you got a hobby. Yeah, sometimes the hobby's fucking someone else.
Speaker 5: That is, you know, it's a rather time consuming.
Speaker 1: Sure hobby, and but that's great. It also worked out
Speaker 1: for me.
Speaker 4: Did you still and I hope this is a question
Speaker 4: is appropriate to ask, but like, were you still sleeping
Speaker 4: with your husband when you were sleeping with other people?
Speaker 5: No, that is a great question to ask because I
Speaker 5: think a lot of people assume that, like, oh, she's
Speaker 5: just you know, they have like a sexless marriage. No,
Speaker 5: we were definitely having sex and we still have great, great, Oh,
Speaker 5: that's so exciting. But I think, and I honestly think
Speaker 5: one of the big benefits, there are a few benefits
Speaker 5: to our sex life and it's not the only reason
Speaker 5: to do this. At first, he was like, he gets
Speaker 5: a little turned on by me being with other people.
Speaker 1: I am.
Speaker 2: Not.
Speaker 1: It's way convenient when you are, though, because you're like,
Speaker 1: I believe you, this is awesome. I believe you.
Speaker 5: And I'm just starting to like, like, I'm so, I
Speaker 5: don't know. Sometimes like the older I get, the more
Speaker 5: gen xy I feel, and I talk to younger women.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, wow, there are females.
Speaker 5: Who are like you know what I mean, Like I was, so,
Speaker 5: I so drank the kool aid of what women are like,
Speaker 5: you know. I feel like I discover something that I'm like, oh,
Speaker 5: you guys already know, like it's so cool. But my
Speaker 5: husband is that way.
Speaker 1: So that was fun.
Speaker 5: That was like, But but part of what happened at
Speaker 5: the beginning was that's not the way I am. And
Speaker 5: I started to want my sexual relationships outside the marriage.
Speaker 1: To be mine right and not be like I don't
Speaker 1: want yeah, how I am.
Speaker 2: I love things just for me and they feel like
Speaker 2: they have less value when other people know about them,
Speaker 2: which is why it was a terrible idea.
Speaker 5: You're like, my whole life has been drained of its
Speaker 5: meaning because I'm talking about that.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I love because I'm not doing anything wrong, just because
Speaker 2: it feels so it just feels so sad.
Speaker 5: Another indication that you're like a really healthy human.
Speaker 1: That's great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, just no things to yourself. Yeah, just love
Speaker 2: things to myself. It's very hard to be to grow well,
Speaker 2: it's very hard to be in the entertainment business when
Speaker 2: you've decided that the thing you value most is keeping
Speaker 2: things to yourself.
Speaker 1: But I might how I make my money is by
Speaker 1: not keeping it.
Speaker 5: There's a thing that my therapists talked to me about
Speaker 5: once called sponda. It's like I allegedly, I don't I
Speaker 5: haven't checked this out that it's like the it's Sanskrit
Speaker 5: and it's the root of the word spontaneous.
Speaker 1: Okay, But it's about.
Speaker 5: Keeping something within until it is ready to burst forth
Speaker 5: in some creative form.
Speaker 4: Oh maybe, And you might not even be exposing the
Speaker 4: thing with the creative form.
Speaker 1: It might be just be like an offshoot of the thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is great.
Speaker 5: Transit it like kind of goes through its own metamorphosis.
Speaker 1: You're like a cocoon.
Speaker 5: You're just like, yeah, holding the things, letting bond and
Speaker 5: letting them become something creative. And maybe that's why you
Speaker 5: do what you do and your bonda is spontaneously combusting
Speaker 5: all over the place.
Speaker 1: I do sit with things for a long time, make
Speaker 1: sure they're ready. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 5: If you can find out more information, please tell me.
Speaker 5: But I would think that there's some really important things
Speaker 5: about the sex between me and my husband. So one is, yeah,
Speaker 5: he gets off on it, but then I decided that's
Speaker 5: also for me. That was an important learning. The other
Speaker 5: thing is sometimes I learned through doing something with somebody
Speaker 5: else what I like, because we sometimes get two little
Speaker 5: nuts in our marriages, right, but not always do I
Speaker 5: want to do that thing with.
Speaker 1: Them, right, because different vibe.
Speaker 2: Every person you're sexually is a snow Every sexual pairing
Speaker 2: is a snowflake. I agree you're because somebody could bring
Speaker 2: something out of you that the guy doesn't bring that
Speaker 2: out of me or that out of them, but they
Speaker 2: bring it out of you, and I'm like, that's beautiful.
Speaker 5: But you can tell when they love it and the
Speaker 5: other person does it. It's partly the how much they
Speaker 5: love it.
Speaker 4: I love but yeah, you're like, oh, I love it
Speaker 4: because seeing a guy super super super aroused is so
Speaker 4: hot and it's kind of beautiful, like different things arouse
Speaker 4: different men.
Speaker 1: It's such a beautiful exactly all of us.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: And then the third thing that I thought was a
Speaker 5: huge surprise was like he has like because we have
Speaker 5: different tastes, I no longer feel pressure to give him
Speaker 5: everything he wants.
Speaker 1: You have a joke about that. Oh, let's hear it.
Speaker 4: But the word don't you don't you talk about like
Speaker 4: the blow or no, you said that on the podcast,
Speaker 4: Like if I'm dating a guy and some girl wants
Speaker 4: to give him blow job, like yeah, please, I don't want.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I did a lot of comedians, so like they're
Speaker 2: on the road, and I always say, I'm a great
Speaker 2: I go. You can go on fucking the road and
Speaker 2: get as many blowjobs from as many women after shows
Speaker 2: as you want.
Speaker 1: And I don't think of it as a threat. I
Speaker 1: think of it as yeah, exactly not. It's for real,
Speaker 1: it's women helping women.
Speaker 5: Like my husband's into like shouting like you know, obscenities
Speaker 5: during sex yeah, it does, and some women get off
Speaker 5: on it and I do not right, it makes me
Speaker 5: like like it makes me cry, and that is a
Speaker 5: buzz kill like that. I like that, you know what
Speaker 5: I mean? Either, And he can tell him about to
Speaker 5: cry and I'm like, are you mad at me?
Speaker 3: He's like no, I'm not, come on, I know, and
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, it's so funny. It's so sad, but
Speaker 3: like no, for a years, it's true, like you said
Speaker 3: to that's okay.
Speaker 1: He likes doing that. That's okay.
Speaker 5: And so now if he does it like we we
Speaker 5: like we can like it's okay now. But I don't
Speaker 5: have to feel bad. I don't have to change my
Speaker 5: boundary and I don't have to feel bad because he
Speaker 5: can do that to whatever else he wants. And I'm
Speaker 5: psyched about it. I'm like, yeah, we call her aunt.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know what I mean. I must follow
Speaker 1: up to this. I love that. Actually up that is
Speaker 1: not far from the actual next book I read. I'm
Speaker 1: not going what it's gonna be about. Like, there's a term.
Speaker 5: There's a term for her metamores. Metamors. Your metamoor is
Speaker 5: your partner's partner.
Speaker 1: And I have never heard that one.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like a polyamory thing. And so your metamoor
Speaker 5: is your partner's partner. So I have a I have
Speaker 5: a whole story about what happened between when this book,
Speaker 5: from the moment, from about a month after this book
Speaker 5: ends through the end of twenty twenty that involve my
Speaker 5: boyfriend at the time's wife and my husband's girlfriend. And
Speaker 5: the thing is, and I mean I was. I was
Speaker 5: in a bad place with jealousy with my husband's girlfriend
Speaker 5: at that time, but I ended up learning and changing
Speaker 5: and evolving in ways I never would have imagined because
Speaker 5: of these two women. Wait, tell me more, Well, they're
Speaker 5: your greatest teachers. Who you think is your greatest enemy?
Speaker 5: Is your greatest teacher?
Speaker 1: Yes Buddhist?
Speaker 2: Yeah about your Yeah, you're like, you're grappling with jealous
Speaker 2: I get jealous, but I'm also a bit jealous.
Speaker 1: But yeah, mine's a little bad. Well it's not good.
Speaker 5: How bad?
Speaker 1: Well, because but I also do you mixed with your temper?
Speaker 4: I know, I know I've pushed a girl before, and
Speaker 4: I'm not proud of it because she's flirting with my
Speaker 4: boyfriend at.
Speaker 1: The time, and I was like, get what the fuck?
Speaker 4: But then I also masturbate, Like now I masturbate to
Speaker 4: my boyfriend having sex with other people.
Speaker 5: Oh so what interesting? Yeah, but I read a lot
Speaker 5: of rich terrain for you to explore.
Speaker 1: So I read a lot of Pema children.
Speaker 4: She reads a lot of books, and she talks about
Speaker 4: the things that fire you up, don't run away, don't
Speaker 4: lean in and breathe.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, one day, but I think the cuckolding
Speaker 1: thing is that.
Speaker 5: Yep, I think you're right because it's so hot.
Speaker 1: To think about. God damn. But if somebody tried to
Speaker 1: talk to my man, like, what the fuck? What are
Speaker 1: you doing? Interesting?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: People are weird.
Speaker 5: Yeah, people are weird. That's like, that's a great conclusion
Speaker 5: to draw, you know what I mean? It is true
Speaker 5: and I love it.
Speaker 1: So how do you do this? Go through this metamorphosis
Speaker 1: with your partners?
Speaker 5: Not very gracefully? So I was like, yeah, I was
Speaker 5: terrified of not being loved enough, you know what I mean?
Speaker 5: And so the story of More is really my discovery
Speaker 5: that I could love myself right fully and therefore not
Speaker 5: like require constant kind of reassurance that I was lovable.
Speaker 1: Oh shit together?
Speaker 5: Yeah? Yeah, But also I know, get you put a
Speaker 5: lot of things together. When this, it's kind of like
Speaker 5: you just kind of like enter the eye of the storm,
Speaker 5: Like you know what I mean, It's like, how many,
Speaker 5: how many tough relationships can I wheeld, you know, simultaneously
Speaker 5: and figure myself out.
Speaker 1: That's kind of the way it felt.
Speaker 5: But like the other thing I think I discovered once
Speaker 5: I fell in love with somebody else and I realized
Speaker 5: it did not make me love take away, I was like,
Speaker 5: what it made me love him more?
Speaker 2: Right, because he's allowing he wants you to feel love
Speaker 2: and you want him to feel love.
Speaker 1: And that's so close. What a bond that is?
Speaker 5: And yes, yes, And it was also like I was
Speaker 5: getting everything I needed.
Speaker 1: It made it.
Speaker 5: It put a it put a spotlight on the things
Speaker 5: that my husband gives me, you know what I mean,
Speaker 5: love this And I was getting the things that maybe
Speaker 5: I thought maybe he didn't do enough for me. I
Speaker 5: was either giving them to myself or getting them from
Speaker 5: someone else.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 5: And so all of a sudden, and then I was
Speaker 5: seeing also how his relationships were positively impacting me at
Speaker 5: the end of the day, Like the fact that there's
Speaker 5: a scene in the book when like he goes away
Speaker 5: with his girlfriend for the first time and she makes
Speaker 5: him fucking help her cook, and he was like, man,
Speaker 5: I realized, like I haven't been a very good like helper.
Speaker 1: Other women training him to be a better man. Yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: And I'm like okay.
Speaker 5: And he's also he's like fifty six years old, so yeah,
Speaker 5: and his girlfriend is like fourteen years younger.
Speaker 1: So that was like really helpful, interesting, really.
Speaker 5: Helpful because she was like, I'm not taking this shit,
Speaker 5: whereas I grew up with my dad doing that same stuff,
Speaker 5: so I needed like a And I was looking at
Speaker 5: the threat because she's younger, and I'm like, oh no,
Speaker 5: this younger woman. And I'm like, bring on the younger
Speaker 5: women because they are gonna they will.
Speaker 1: Not put shit.
Speaker 5: Yeah you know what I mean, And they will be
Speaker 5: a chorus telling you all the ways in which you
Speaker 5: need to change.
Speaker 1: It's great, this is totally changed my Okay. So I
Speaker 1: had this thought.
Speaker 4: I was at a party the other day talking to
Speaker 4: a good friend from high school and she has always
Speaker 4: wanted to have a baby with a non romantic person,
Speaker 4: either a friend or a gay guy.
Speaker 1: And I was great, that's always been my plan for
Speaker 1: a long time.
Speaker 2: I wanted a baby with a gay guy because we
Speaker 2: can both date other people and be super super happy
Speaker 2: for each other.
Speaker 1: There's never gonna be jealousy. I don't care. And we
Speaker 1: both love the kid so much. And my brother has
Speaker 1: a nephew has a son.
Speaker 4: So my nephew him and his baby mama are separated
Speaker 4: and they have other partners and they he gets his
Speaker 4: son half of the week.
Speaker 1: He's so excited to see the kid when he gets them.
Speaker 2: And then he gets a little break at it. And
Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, that I think is the right plan.
Speaker 2: But if but this seems like it's more viable, Like
Speaker 2: it feels like it's more it is viable.
Speaker 1: Right right, I just didn't be done.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we just got to open up these this idea
Speaker 2: of what a family is exactly. The nuclear family is crumbling,
Speaker 2: and I think that's a really good thing.
Speaker 5: I think we are seeing this everywhere. I think this
Speaker 5: is the next frontier and we're not. And it's not
Speaker 5: something to mourn the loss of. It's okay, it's just change.
Speaker 5: It's change, and it doesn't make me like and if
Speaker 5: you still want a little nuclear family, I still have one. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I have my husband and my sons and they are
Speaker 5: the people that like we. But I kind of joke
Speaker 5: sometimes it's like he is the only one who I
Speaker 5: will torture by bringing home for Christmas.
Speaker 1: You know what I like.
Speaker 5: So if I meet a guy like, I don't care
Speaker 5: what your mother is like because I might never meet.
Speaker 1: Meet her, And that's amazing, that's really good night.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: But I also like my mother in law gave me
Speaker 5: this when she was dying and I and I yeah,
Speaker 5: and so like I wear this too because like we
Speaker 5: get to we get to still have those familial bonds,
Speaker 5: but we don't have to limit ourselves. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 5: the whole the whole thing just opens up with possibility
Speaker 5: if we just do things consciously instead of just a fault.
Speaker 4: And you and you stay with yourself through the uncomfortable
Speaker 4: feelings instead of just running away and reacting to them
Speaker 4: or whatever, like going off of those feelings of the
Speaker 4: uncomfortability of the feeling and just breathing through it and realizing, like,
Speaker 4: what's on the other side of that is something incredible.
Speaker 5: And that's what I had my mother telling me, and
Speaker 5: nobody that I know has had that, Like being second
Speaker 5: generation open, I think it.
Speaker 1: Was less about you don't really hear that much. Yeah, right.
Speaker 5: It was less about something genetic or in the water
Speaker 5: or whatever. I think it was a little bit about
Speaker 5: her friendship, but it was also about me calling her
Speaker 5: when I was going through a breakup or feeling horribly
Speaker 5: jealous and feeling like I think I'm scared, you know,
Speaker 5: I'm scared that I'm gonna blow up my marriage or
Speaker 5: I'm scared that something bad's gonna happen, and my mom
Speaker 5: saying like, oh, sweetheart, it's fine, Like wow, you know
Speaker 5: she understood. Oh yeah, your father and I would stay
Speaker 5: up all night talking.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 5: I remember all those you know, crying and I remember
Speaker 5: that feeling but like it'll be okay. It was her line,
Speaker 5: there will be more, there will be more, And I
Speaker 5: think I don't think she realized how much more she
Speaker 5: was telling me there would be. But that's my feeling.
Speaker 5: And when I when I came up with this title,
Speaker 5: I was like, Oh, that's it, and the book was
Speaker 5: already written. The word more is all throughout it. And
Speaker 5: it's often me remembering my mother saying that. But I
Speaker 5: feel like when we have models in our lives of
Speaker 5: someone who has gone through the ship and arrived at
Speaker 5: the other side, and she's still got my you know,
Speaker 5: she and my dad have been married for almost sixty
Speaker 5: years and they still have these beautiful relationships with other people.
Speaker 5: Really yes, I mean no, not not sexual anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they still like keep in touch. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: have like friendships.
Speaker 5: Yeah. Then that guy that I heard my mom laughing with,
Speaker 5: you know, was that my reading.
Speaker 1: There's this like myth I think we've been sold. When
Speaker 1: you're with somebody, you possess them or they belong to you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is not true.
Speaker 5: No, and it's and and we're we're trying, I think
Speaker 5: now to just stretch our our understanding of what's possible,
Speaker 5: you know. And the best way to stretch it is
Speaker 5: to is to look at other models and compare yourself.
Speaker 5: But oh, I know what you were saying about, like
Speaker 5: pushing through bad feelings. People say to me, this is
Speaker 5: a question I get on a lot of podcasts, like
Speaker 5: but if it was so hard, why did you keep going?
Speaker 5: And it's a good question, but it's like your gut,
Speaker 5: And we don't say that about anything else in life.
Speaker 5: We don't say it's hard. Kids are hard, like why
Speaker 5: didn't you give them?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: What I mean, right right, Well, I mean I said that,
Speaker 2: but I didn't have a kid after I said it,
Speaker 2: before I had a kid. And I think that's a
Speaker 2: question that's like a discussion that you know, we have
Speaker 2: a lot on this show, and I think people get
Speaker 2: down on us, you know, like we're anti kid and
Speaker 2: I'm like, no, it's just not a discussion that you
Speaker 2: really heard people having like twenty years ago, like you know,
Speaker 2: you were just like gonna have a kid. And I
Speaker 2: think it's really important to constantly talk about it up until.
Speaker 1: No asolutely have to.
Speaker 5: I also agree that like monogamy is hard, kids are hard. Right, Therefore,
Speaker 5: these are great reasons, great reasons to never get married
Speaker 5: and never have a kid because it's a specific kind
Speaker 5: of hard you might not want. But for some reason
Speaker 5: we think that these are still the right choices even
Speaker 5: though they're hard.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 5: But then, you know, you look at something that is
Speaker 5: non conventional and hard, and then suddenly it becomes don't
Speaker 5: do it.
Speaker 1: Don't do it if it's hard.
Speaker 5: Life is hard, human is hard, and if we don't
Speaker 5: like find a way to do the you know, the
Speaker 5: work around the hard feelings, you know, it's the goal.
Speaker 1: Might not be better for you.
Speaker 5: Yeah. The goal is not to avoid bad feelings at
Speaker 5: all costs, right, right, We have to in fact be evaluate.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think well, because my question, yeah, my question
Speaker 2: when when you start talking about that, was was my
Speaker 2: next question was going to be, do you think it's
Speaker 2: harder to have an open marriage than a monogamous one?
Speaker 2: Because again I think we always we always hear these
Speaker 2: challenges of you know, ethical non monogamy, open marriage, et cetera,
Speaker 2: and we think, wow, this sounds difficult. But also as
Speaker 2: an unmarried person, when I hear about monogamous marriages, they
Speaker 2: also sound really difficult.
Speaker 1: Marriage is hard, I think, right, Yeah, relationships are.
Speaker 5: It's all hard, right, So I think, now my marriage
Speaker 5: feels so easy, breezy. There is There is so little
Speaker 5: that's hard with us now. But that's also you know,
Speaker 5: you earned it. Yeah, and we're healthy, you know what
Speaker 5: I mean. I also see my mother is Parkinson's and
Speaker 5: my dad takes care of her. That's hard, you know
Speaker 5: what I mean. But that's that's a different kind of hard.
Speaker 1: So you just don't know what's kind of hard. You're
Speaker 1: coming up with your third, fourth, fifth.
Speaker 5: Say I love it, I love it, but I do
Speaker 5: think that we have to be honest about the things
Speaker 5: that are hard in all of these all these different paths,
Speaker 5: because what I was seeing before I wrote this book,
Speaker 5: partly why I wrote it, was people saying, either, it's
Speaker 5: so it's impossible. You know, we tried it for like
Speaker 5: a month, you know. I like people were doing like
Speaker 5: experiments on like you know, like like a journalist being like,
Speaker 5: I tried non monogamy. This is why it didn't work,
Speaker 5: you know what I mean that kind of show was
Speaker 5: a guy yeah yeah, yeah. Or people were saying I
Speaker 5: think I was just born polyamorous and that wasn't my
Speaker 5: experience either.
Speaker 2: Those people, Yes, those people are really hard to take,
Speaker 2: really hard to take because they're full of shit and
Speaker 2: they don't know it yet.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I'm just waiting for you to see it, dude.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So I feel like, but you know what, I'll be honest,
Speaker 5: Like I won't name names, but like, I have been
Speaker 5: interviewed by some folks who are Polly who said who
Speaker 5: I had heard them say talking about just the great
Speaker 5: parts of polyamory, and then when we were talking about
Speaker 5: my book, they're like, so much of your experience spoke
Speaker 5: to me it's so hard, but I think there's pressure
Speaker 5: when you're doing something unconventional, like this is perfect and
Speaker 5: nothing's wrong with it, and I'm so happy because otherwise
Speaker 5: people are going to do what they've been saying to me,
Speaker 5: which is like, look at her, like she's just miserable.
Speaker 5: She was gas lit, and she was manipulated and she
Speaker 5: was you know. But I'm like, none of that is
Speaker 5: actually true. The whole truth is complicated, and so yeah,
Speaker 5: I wanted to tell my most honest, complicated version of
Speaker 5: what happened and why I'm still doing it, you know
Speaker 5: what I mean, But not as a manifesto, not as
Speaker 5: a how to, just like the story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're you're being constantly hubbled and grounded throughout
Speaker 2: the whole process.
Speaker 1: I'm also curious.
Speaker 2: This doesn't matter, but I'm just curious the kind of
Speaker 2: park slope mom that's.
Speaker 1: Like, do you have an egg skinner or something? Were
Speaker 1: they like that's a thing? Did you hear about Molly? Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's fucking around like did you was that a thing
Speaker 1: of gossip Girl? Yeah? So that's how I think.
Speaker 4: I mean, not that it matters, but I'm like, if
Speaker 4: that did happen, I wonder if they were like secretly
Speaker 4: jealous that you were getting d on the side and
Speaker 4: your husband was like, yes.
Speaker 5: Girl, yeah, I mean I had friends who were worried
Speaker 5: about me, you know what I mean, and they were yeah,
Speaker 5: they weren't wrong, like you got religay. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 5: some of it was worried that was grounded and some
Speaker 5: was not, you know what I mean. So some was like,
Speaker 5: are you like vetting.
Speaker 1: These guys before you got with them? And I was like,
Speaker 1: what do you mean?
Speaker 3: You know what?
Speaker 5: But I also don't spend a lot of time worried
Speaker 5: of being worried about like getting hit by a bus.
Speaker 5: I'm just like, you know what I mean, it's want
Speaker 5: to enjoy your life.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I I do think that over time I
Speaker 5: became like an experiment people watch, like I didn't get
Speaker 5: lasik surgery till my husband got it and didn't go blind,
Speaker 5: you know what I mean. And so partly I think,
Speaker 5: you know, if if my life had crashed and burned,
Speaker 5: I would be a cautionary tale, yes, But instead I
Speaker 5: feel like I'm giving a realistic view on like this,
Speaker 5: this is how things could go, you know what I mean,
Speaker 5: This is how hard it is, and this is you know,
Speaker 5: my EXPERI maybe it'll not go this way for you,
Speaker 5: but I feel like as people saw, oh she actually
Speaker 5: seems pretty happy, and like, oh I think they are
Speaker 5: still happily married too, and oh her kids aren't actually.
Speaker 1: Fucked up, Like oh, this is probably okay.
Speaker 5: But it took like they had to like see the
Speaker 5: fifteen year trajectory, you know, of like everybody's okay, right
Speaker 5: to believe me that it was gonna be okay.
Speaker 1: The truth doesn't mind being questioned, even for fifteen years.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Oh that's a good line.
Speaker 3: I like that.
Speaker 1: I love the Ah. So one of the self help
Speaker 1: books I read, I picked it up and I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm never letting that one go. No, you should. People
Speaker 1: are super defensive. I'm like, truth doesn't mind being questioned.
Speaker 2: Ah, so good.
Speaker 1: Then they shut up, right, you caught him in a light,
Speaker 1: didn't even know. Yeah, silence, beautiful silence.
Speaker 5: Oh I'm gonna say that.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: People are like, is there anything we shouldn't talk about?
Speaker 5: I'll be like, truth doesn't mind being questioned.
Speaker 1: Oh I love it.
Speaker 5: It's like you can ask me anything, but I might
Speaker 5: not answer if it's somebody else's business.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's kind of where Drummond line totally, and I
Speaker 2: guess that we have one I can have time for
Speaker 2: one more. The last question I wanted to ask is
Speaker 2: is it do you Is there like a standout moment
Speaker 2: in your mind for the for your most like jealous moments.
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that question.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm specifically really fascinated by the feeling of jealousy.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think it's I think it's one of the toughest
Speaker 2: feelings to feel as a human and one that we
Speaker 2: often don't handle gracefully.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, nope.
Speaker 5: Well, it was like like the first time I had
Speaker 5: given my husband permission to sleep with someone else, I
Speaker 5: had already slept with someone else within our marriage or
Speaker 5: outside our marriage.
Speaker 1: That feel good, you get it first win when yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm on top, but then going on, yeah, you can
Speaker 1: do it too.
Speaker 5: And then the moment it was oh I see yeah,
Speaker 5: the moment that he like confirmed that it had happened.
Speaker 1: That was a really bad feeling. Did you ask?
Speaker 5: I did, yeah, because I was like, because he asked
Speaker 5: if he could, and I was like yes, And then
Speaker 5: I wanted to know if he did, And then I like, like,
Speaker 5: I practically like blacked out from like, Yeah, I mean
Speaker 5: it's I wrote about it in the book as best
Speaker 5: I could, like my memory of what that felt like.
Speaker 5: Sure it was Actually that part was cited in an
Speaker 5: Institute for Family Studies article, along with Reddit posts were
Speaker 5: being cited as reasons why non monogamy is a bad
Speaker 5: She's like even Molly rot in Winter wrote in her
Speaker 5: memoir that this is the way she felt when her like.
Speaker 1: Why people pair so much? What you're doing in your
Speaker 1: own marriage?
Speaker 5: And I'm like, how does an academic study citing a
Speaker 5: memoir and reddit you know, moment and.
Speaker 4: People get jealous when they're monogamous? Yes, probably a little
Speaker 4: bit more, Yes, that's wild.
Speaker 1: But did you ask for a photo of the woman?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: My god, I m at two times.
Speaker 5: I mean I've met I mean even you know, even
Speaker 5: when I've met women somewhat recently. It's kind of embarrassing
Speaker 5: to say, like, I still get these moments of like
Speaker 5: because the older I get this sounds terrible. It's not
Speaker 5: like his girlfriends are like younger, and he has one
Speaker 5: main one who's quite a bit younger, but his but like,
Speaker 5: I love her.
Speaker 2: But she like helps me, right, she says, I don't
Speaker 2: want to yeah, quite a bit younger is just so funny.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 4: Well that's that's the other thing, Like if I if
Speaker 4: I open my relationship up and then he's just fucking
Speaker 4: dating a twenty one year old.
Speaker 1: Like what the fuck is this? I don't like that.
Speaker 1: Then moment you could.
Speaker 5: Date someone else who's also exactly thirty eight, somebody who's older.
Speaker 5: Though he has all he's like very equal opportunity. He
Speaker 5: dates for older women too, and I'm always like, that's
Speaker 5: a good joint. Yeah, he doesn't have like those I
Speaker 5: don't date guys by the way, who put on there
Speaker 5: if they go ten years younger on.
Speaker 1: Their like app, Yeah, can you tell very stranger?
Speaker 5: Look yeah they say it off an okay Cupid, it's
Speaker 5: a looking for Okay, he is only when I've used that's.
Speaker 1: A good one. Looking for eighteen to twenty two?
Speaker 5: Yeah, like that kind of shit. I'm like, oh no,
Speaker 5: even if you include your own age, but don't go
Speaker 5: up by the same amount you went down your most limature,
Speaker 5: I get grossed out by.
Speaker 1: That's what I mean.
Speaker 5: Max, Yeah, right, I guess you could be my age
Speaker 5: yet not a year younger. But if you're twelve years younger. Great,
Speaker 5: you know, like this is something underneath.
Speaker 1: It's a type that I don't like. You gotta go
Speaker 1: at least five years above your own age.
Speaker 5: Yea, at least yeah, at least I think unless you're
Speaker 5: like twenty, then that's not okay.
Speaker 1: Have you dated younger guy?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 1: Is it all the rage that everybody says it is
Speaker 1: not too much younger?
Speaker 5: You know? I mean I think it also depends on
Speaker 5: the person this is gonna say. I think it's like
Speaker 5: I have this weird calculus that like younger plus not
Speaker 5: American is fine.
Speaker 1: I'm interesting. I see what you say. It It's like
Speaker 1: there's a windsdrem languages.
Speaker 5: If you're like a younger American and you're probably like.
Speaker 2: Right, well you and how you're the guy with the
Speaker 2: which is the largest young age gap fourteen years.
Speaker 5: Younger was the youngest tokay, and he was American and
Speaker 5: he was Yeah, it's like it's a that's but like, yeah,
Speaker 5: I updated very happily dated up to ten eleven years
Speaker 5: younger actually, but one and and you know what, there's
Speaker 5: one it's nine years younger who is American?
Speaker 1: Great? Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 5: So I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm as I'm talking to you, I'm realizing, like you know,
Speaker 2: my insecurities that I expressed that I would possibly feel
Speaker 2: if I were doing this. It is all.
Speaker 1: It all circles back to your own sense of self esteem.
Speaker 4: Yeah you know, yeah, because not being even worried about
Speaker 4: that is like a good a good indicator of good
Speaker 4: self esteem.
Speaker 1: But not to say that you should stop if you
Speaker 1: have like it's like what doot you'll be worried about?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 2: Like they like, I'm not your favorite person. Oh oh oh,
Speaker 2: I thought you specifically with something.
Speaker 1: With a younger guy.
Speaker 5: Well yeah, but I think like I had a lot
Speaker 5: like we in America in particular, but maybe in the
Speaker 5: whole world think that aging women are less sexy, and
Speaker 5: we think that men are like like, oh, George Clooney
Speaker 5: is hot or whatever. If you're a gen xer, maybe yeah,
Speaker 5: you guys are I'm not but very handsome, okay, But
Speaker 5: like I, I then look at women who are not
Speaker 5: like like I. I I to dye my hair and
Speaker 5: I feel a little self conscious about it, but I
Speaker 5: will never get botox. But I'm like, why is it
Speaker 5: that I feel like I can't have gray hair? And
Speaker 5: I'm like, I don't know, I just look better. I
Speaker 5: don't know, just like yeah, but like why do we
Speaker 5: let men like we're so.
Speaker 1: Shitty male gaze?
Speaker 5: But I will say men that are like worth dating
Speaker 5: are super into older women in my experience, maybe just
Speaker 5: because like I'm an older woman to some of these
Speaker 5: men I'm dating, but they're like they're like, you know,
Speaker 5: almost like reverential in a way that's problematic, you know.
Speaker 1: Whoa like like they can't.
Speaker 5: Believe they're good luck, And I'm like, it's true, you
Speaker 5: know what I mean. However, I also need you to
Speaker 5: have you know. But it's like there's a range there
Speaker 5: are I I have loosened up a little bit on
Speaker 5: how I feel about my husband being with women that
Speaker 5: are younger. I don't feel as threatened by it because
Speaker 5: I'm starting to understand the value of age too, and
Speaker 5: that you get different things from different people. Yeah, right,
Speaker 5: And there are some great things about being with someone younger,
Speaker 5: and there are some great things about being with someone older.
Speaker 1: It's just different. Yeah, Wow, yeah, you're really doing it
Speaker 1: doing it.
Speaker 4: I'm trying thanks an honest account of a of a
Speaker 4: lifestyle that has a bad rep This is giving speaking
Speaker 4: truth to the ups and downs of it, I think
Speaker 4: is legitimizing it.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 2: I think it's also I think what what makes this
Speaker 2: more I don't want to say more interesting, but or
Speaker 2: like more real to me is like, you know you
Speaker 2: started this what two tho. The book starts with two
Speaker 2: thousand and eight, so it's like it's starting before there
Speaker 2: was like bistacles on BuzzFeed about like twenty two signs
Speaker 2: you're poly. Don't know exactly right, I just it's just
Speaker 2: so many people use Polly so loosely, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: this is an extremely complex lifestyle, and I just feel
Speaker 2: like you're using it very loosely when really it's a
Speaker 2: commitment for you have to put a lot of time.
Speaker 1: I'm like, you haven't even kind of mastered your girlfriend back. Yeah, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: they're right.
Speaker 5: There are people who are like e n M because
Speaker 5: they aren't good at any relationship, right, and then there
Speaker 5: are people who are n M because they're awesome at relationship.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And we always had this theory too, and dance outage
Speaker 1: that's the same thing.
Speaker 4: It's like, if you're gonna have like a beautiful, long
Speaker 4: term like poly relationship with somebody, it's also wise like
Speaker 4: be closed first, and like you and your husband have
Speaker 4: a foundation.
Speaker 1: That's like, I mean, that's that's you can't fuck with that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there are I Like I am dating someone now
Speaker 5: who has always been non monogamous and led with that
Speaker 5: like before he met his wife, and so that's worked
Speaker 5: for them.
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly.
Speaker 5: So I'm always like all the rules I've had in
Speaker 5: my whole life, whether I get talked about them in
Speaker 5: the book or not, they always get shattered eventually.
Speaker 1: Rules are first, so we feel safe.
Speaker 5: But my one thing is like, this is just like truth.
Speaker 5: Everything's an opportunity to learn about yourself. So do whatever
Speaker 5: you're gonna do and just pay attention and try to
Speaker 5: learn something about yourself.
Speaker 1: Amazing, beautiful. I love it.
Speaker 5: Oh Wowause do you always applaud.
Speaker 1: I'm so flattered.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Well, pick up this book.
Speaker 2: We have it right here at the Beautiful Orange. More
Speaker 2: and More of Open Marriage by Molly Roden Winster. Guys,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for being on the show today.
Speaker 2: This has been Guys We Fucked, the anti slut cheaming podcast.
Speaker 2: We'll talk to you next Friday. Guys We Fucked is
Speaker 2: presented by Luminary created and hosted by Karn Fisher and
Speaker 2: Christina Hutchinson.
Speaker 1: Editing and music coordination by Mike Coscarelli. Theme song by
Speaker 1: Rob Patterson and Jake Cozen suck my wet ass pussy.
Speaker 1: Christina said to cut that before, but now it's in
Speaker 1: the air. Yeah, let's keep it. Who cares.
Speaker 2: That I can think about that?
Speaker 5: Cut out
Speaker 1: The color and much pre