Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: This is talk Easy. I'm stand Fragoso. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Today.
Speaker 2: I'm joined by actor Kyle McLaughlin. Forty years ago this week,
Speaker 2: McLaughlin made his on screen debut in Dune. It was
Speaker 2: an adaptation of the beloved nineteen sixty five sci fi
Speaker 2: novel written by Frank Herbert and brought to the screen
Speaker 2: by director David Lynch. The film was a box office bomb,
Speaker 2: but has since become something of a cult classic. It also,
Speaker 2: more importantly marked the beginning of a fruitful collaboration between
Speaker 2: Lynch and McLaughlin, including Blue Velvet and Twin Peaks, both
Speaker 2: of which we discuss at length in this episode. In
Speaker 2: recent years, McLaughlin has continued to make inspired and surprising choices,
Speaker 2: leaning into comedy in shows like Sex and the City
Speaker 2: and Portlandia, or criminally underseen films like Steven Zoderberg's High
Speaker 2: Flying Bird and Greg Mottola's Confessed Fletch. His willingness to
Speaker 2: experiment and to remain curious is one of his great gifts.
Speaker 2: I think it's a gift that's also on full display
Speaker 2: in his latest project, Varnum Down. It's not a film,
Speaker 2: although it probably will be one day, but instead a
Speaker 2: podcast hosted by McLaughlin and journalist Joshua Davis. I could
Speaker 2: explain the show, but why don't we let them take
Speaker 2: it over for a second. Here's a little bit from
Speaker 2: the trailer of the new show Varnum Down.
Speaker 3: Okay, Kyle, tell me what you know about the connection
Speaker 3: between Ario Speedwagon, the super band from the seventies and eighties,
Speaker 3: and Pablo Escobar, the drug kingpin.
Speaker 1: Well, sometime in the early eighties, Ario Speedwagon's airplane made
Speaker 1: an unannounced middle of the night landing.
Speaker 3: This is my friend Kyle McLaughlin, the star of Twin Peaks,
Speaker 3: and he's telling me about how he discovered a real
Speaker 3: life Twin Peaks in rural North Carolina, not far from
Speaker 3: where he filmed Blue Velvet.
Speaker 1: What was on the plane was copious amounts of drugs
Speaker 1: coming in from South America. Supposedly, Pablo Escobar went looking
Speaker 1: for other spots, quiet, out of the way places to
Speaker 1: bring in his cocaine.
Speaker 3: Okay, hold on, you're saying that a town of three
Speaker 3: hundred people en mass did a deal with Pablo Escobar.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's what I heard.
Speaker 2: In promoting this new show of his. He's become something
Speaker 2: of a sudden Internet sensation, taking to Instagram and TikTok,
Speaker 2: where his team of what I assume are very very
Speaker 2: young people have immersed them in the worlds of Lord
Speaker 2: and Lana del Rey, taking part in trends that I
Speaker 2: definitely don't understand, but that my sister insists are very cool.
Speaker 2: And so we do discuss this new viral fame towards
Speaker 2: the end of this conversation, But to start, we talk
Speaker 2: about this new podcast of his and the small town
Speaker 2: in North Carolina where Pablo Escobar Brokeer to Deal. I
Speaker 2: think ultimately this show is born out of Kyle's love
Speaker 2: of small towns, especially coming of age in Yakoma, Washington,
Speaker 2: which of course would then later be repurposed in the
Speaker 2: hit show Twin Peaks. And so with that, I hope
Speaker 2: you enjoy this very fun, sometimes silly, sometimes serious conversation
Speaker 2: with actor and now podcaster Kyle McLaughlin. This is kind
Speaker 2: of a loaded question to ask you, but how's your coffee?
Speaker 1: This coffee? Yeah, it's quite good, actually, is it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: But my taste level in terms of coffee varies with
Speaker 1: the situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of a daunting question to ask.
Speaker 1: I am sort of known for my coffee prowess. Yes,
Speaker 1: I guess yeah.
Speaker 2: I think everyone on the team was nervous about satisfying
Speaker 2: your highest.
Speaker 1: High Yeah, my high standards not that high. In fact,
Speaker 1: I got to say, you know, when you when you
Speaker 1: work on a set, you kind of whatever coffee is
Speaker 1: there is what you what you go with. Korig was
Speaker 1: a big one when we were doing the Twin Peaks return.
Speaker 1: I can't remember what we did in the original what
Speaker 1: it was, but I can even work with diner coffee
Speaker 1: in New York.
Speaker 2: When you're out at a place, do people have to
Speaker 2: ask you how? Oh is it?
Speaker 1: They want to hear me? See it's this is damn fine.
Speaker 2: Now we can start the show. Yeah, good Kyle McGlaughlin, Sam, welcome.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: How are you doing.
Speaker 1: I'm really good. Thank you for asking. I'm very happy
Speaker 1: to be here.
Speaker 2: It is a joy to have you here. And for
Speaker 2: the last couple of years you yourself, have been making
Speaker 2: this new podcast of yours. Yes, and it's now out.
Speaker 2: It's called Varmintown. I thought we just start here because
Speaker 2: you'd heard the story that would become this show a
Speaker 2: few years back. And it's my understanding that you upon
Speaker 2: hearing the story, called up your future co host Joshua Davis,
Speaker 2: who's an excellent investigative reporter in his own right, and
Speaker 2: I'm wondering on that phone call to him, how did
Speaker 2: you explain the story that would become Varnumtown.
Speaker 1: I gave him the highlights, and josh is, as you said,
Speaker 1: he's an incredible investigative reporter and he has a terrific
Speaker 1: sense of story. And he heard eighties Pablo Escobar town
Speaker 1: and coastal North Carolina. Small town. You couldn't even call
Speaker 1: it a town of three hundred people a community, really,
Speaker 1: And I said, what do you think? And he said,
Speaker 1: I think there's something here. I think this is an
Speaker 1: interesting story. And I asked, I said, you know, I
Speaker 1: recognize that, I said, but I don't do what you do.
Speaker 1: You're an investigative journalist. You go and you know how
Speaker 1: to ask the questions. You know, you're almost like a
Speaker 1: like an a prosecuting attorney, you know what I mean. He
Speaker 1: goes in with a very clear idea of kind of
Speaker 1: where he's trying to go, and I'm kind of like, hey,
Speaker 1: so tell me about you know, did you ever do
Speaker 1: any cocaine when you were in Varnumtown, I would have
Speaker 1: the I would ask the wrong questions.
Speaker 2: Lead question for our listeners who maybe haven't heard the
Speaker 2: show yet. Yeah, how would you explain this podcast.
Speaker 1: Josh David, we're speaking about it myself. We decided to
Speaker 1: create a story within a story. So Varnhumtown, small community,
Speaker 1: coastal North Carolina.
Speaker 2: This is back in the eighties.
Speaker 1: Back in the eighties was a became one of the
Speaker 1: top smuggling ports for drugs coming out of South America,
Speaker 1: specifically drugs coming from the cartel of Pablo Escobar. So
Speaker 1: Josh and I went down and we decided what we're
Speaker 1: going to do is do a little interview session with
Speaker 1: the people that were involved. So we took six days
Speaker 1: to speak to the people that were there, and we
Speaker 1: got their stories and we put them together, and then
Speaker 1: we put together a journey based upon those interviews. So
Speaker 1: it's Josh and I trying to figure out what really
Speaker 1: happened based on the interviews that we did.
Speaker 2: So back in the eighties, there was this town of
Speaker 2: about three hundred people. Like you said, at that point,
Speaker 2: Escobar and the cartel had been smuggling drugs into ports
Speaker 2: in Miami.
Speaker 1: Correct.
Speaker 2: But soon realized that they were just too heavily trafficked.
Speaker 2: There were too many cops, and they wanted to find
Speaker 2: a kind of sleepy Twin Peaks like town, Yes, where
Speaker 2: they could go sort of more undercover.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was the perfect setting because there was there's
Speaker 1: no one around. Farnhamtown is very isolated. It sits on
Speaker 1: a series of waterways right in coastal North Carolina. When
Speaker 1: you think of a backwater town, this is what it is.
Speaker 2: And the community thought, what of this? You found business fans.
Speaker 1: Well, the central figure in this is a guy named
Speaker 1: Dale Varnum, and he made the deal and began this
Speaker 1: process of importing illegally importing these substances, which grew quickly.
Speaker 1: There are multiple substances, multiple substances. You have marijuana, primarily marijuana,
Speaker 1: cocaine queludes, who were also a big deal back then,
Speaker 1: and those were being smuggled in.
Speaker 2: The rest of the base. I don't know that they
Speaker 2: exist anymore.
Speaker 1: They I don't know what happened.
Speaker 2: Did you ever try those?
Speaker 1: No? No, I'm not much of a you know, I
Speaker 1: feel like eighties back then, you never I know when
Speaker 1: the opportunity was right, I know, I didn't really I
Speaker 1: didn't really.
Speaker 2: I was born in ninety four, so I think they
Speaker 2: were gone by that.
Speaker 1: You're completely innocent, innocent by birth. Tell me them.
Speaker 2: The main figure is this man named Dale Dale Varnam.
Speaker 1: This is what we had gleaned from our conversations with
Speaker 1: the person down there who had first broken the story
Speaker 1: to me. The Dale was kind of the kingpin. As
Speaker 1: we got through the journey of interviewing everyone, we realized
Speaker 1: that the story was much more complicated than that, and Dale,
Speaker 1: while he was an important part of it, was maybe
Speaker 1: not the central figure that we had thought he was.
Speaker 1: So soon you had small freighters coming up the coast
Speaker 1: loaded with contraband that would be offloaded into the port
Speaker 1: of Varnumtown and then trucked from there across country.
Speaker 2: And did a new sort of more affluent community rise
Speaker 2: up because of this?
Speaker 1: Not really, It was so out of the way. People
Speaker 1: weren't They weren't aware of the people of the community
Speaker 1: were making lots of money very quickly.
Speaker 2: And they were okay with how they made that money.
Speaker 1: There are certainly people that did not agree with what
Speaker 1: was happening, and we spoke with them and during the interviews,
Speaker 1: which was an interesting perspective. We spoke with everyone from
Speaker 1: law enforcement to the smugglers to the people who were opposed,
Speaker 1: So we covered a pretty good, pretty good range, but
Speaker 1: there were definitely people who were opposed to what was happening,
Speaker 1: did not agree with what was happening. But you've got
Speaker 1: to imagine this depressed community. Shrimping was the main industry
Speaker 1: that was on hard times. There was no money coming in,
Speaker 1: no way to make a buck, you know, and here
Speaker 1: was this huge opportunity and people said, hey, I can
Speaker 1: support my family, I can you know, I can make
Speaker 1: my life a little easier, you know by doing this.
Speaker 1: And you know, was it no harm, no fouls what
Speaker 1: they were thinking.
Speaker 2: So when you and Josh had the North Carolina to
Speaker 2: make this podcast, you're knocking door to door and I'm curious,
Speaker 2: I'm curious about you. You're a pro to that, Like
Speaker 2: would you go to the door and say, like, hi,
Speaker 2: you may recognize me as Agent.
Speaker 1: Cooper from such roles as that.
Speaker 2: Was also a show set in a small town much
Speaker 2: like yours. Yes, what was your pitch in this like
Speaker 2: journalistic pursuit?
Speaker 1: We were thankfully we didn't have to go door to
Speaker 1: door necessarily. The woman again who the name is Lynn Betts,
Speaker 1: was written a book in fact about this. She was
Speaker 1: in contact with most of the people and had remained
Speaker 1: in contact because of the book that she written about
Speaker 1: this with most of the people that we were interested
Speaker 1: in speaking with. So she was very helpful in setting
Speaker 1: up the interviews and sort of clearing the way for us.
Speaker 1: And we sat with the different people, you know, over
Speaker 1: the course of these five or six days doing you know,
Speaker 1: our many hours of interviews, which Josh I will say
Speaker 1: led most of them. I chimed in now and then
Speaker 1: with the you know, the odd question. But I got
Speaker 1: to say most of the people that we spoke with
Speaker 1: were very willing to speak. It wasn't like we were
Speaker 1: trying to grill them or get something out of them
Speaker 1: that they didn't want to share. So they were all
Speaker 1: there to talk about this and was really the questions
Speaker 1: were really more about the specifics of what we needed
Speaker 1: to know to move the story forward.
Speaker 2: Now that you've done it and now that the show's
Speaker 2: coming out, Yeah, what do you make of the story
Speaker 2: big picture? How have you come to understand it more intimately?
Speaker 1: I think there was a real sense of that there
Speaker 1: was something that was positive about it in that particularly
Speaker 1: the character of the role of Dale Dale Varnum. I
Speaker 1: think he felt like he was really doing the community
Speaker 1: as service and helping.
Speaker 2: Do you believe that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that was part of his I think
Speaker 1: there was a genuine need to wanting to help the community.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's also you got to remember this was a depressed
Speaker 1: community in the eighties, not much excitement if you can
Speaker 1: imagine going on. So the idea that there was this
Speaker 1: big smuggling operation coming through, people were involved, lots of
Speaker 1: money was being dished out. I mean, that's kind of
Speaker 1: and during the days of Miami Vice, right, so this
Speaker 1: is you know, they were like, hey, you know, you
Speaker 1: have an audition for that, were like Miami Vice. I
Speaker 1: never did. I would have liked to audition for that
Speaker 1: because it was remember, always the supporting role was always
Speaker 1: like a real juicy. In fact, it was one of
Speaker 1: the first shows on television where actors coming from film
Speaker 1: would do a guest star because it was Yeah.
Speaker 2: In Colombo, Peter Falk, some of the finest.
Speaker 1: I know, when were you born?
Speaker 2: You said, somewhere between nineteen forty four and nineteen ninety four, it.
Speaker 1: Was gonna say, you know, Colombo I'm impressed you're going back.
Speaker 2: Well, we're gonna go back a little bit further. Okay, Okay.
Speaker 2: You were born in Yakima, Washington, and I think maybe
Speaker 2: part of the reason this small town in North Carolina
Speaker 2: and its residents entrusted you with this story is because
Speaker 2: you yourself came of age in a small town. That was
Speaker 2: also the reason when you met Thevid Lynch for the
Speaker 2: first time auditioning for Doune, that he kind of saw
Speaker 2: something in you and he felt a kinship with you,
Speaker 2: and in part because of that small town he did.
Speaker 2: But I want to go back to a little before
Speaker 2: you audition for.
Speaker 1: Doune, which is that you're going to say before I
Speaker 1: was born. I have your whole family chart, right, yeah, Oh, dear,
Speaker 1: Now I'm nervous before you work on Dune and David
Speaker 1: Lynch and make your debut, I want to stay with
Speaker 1: North Carolina for a second because I think it's there
Speaker 1: after your freshman year of college in the summer of
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight at the Flat Rock Playhouse in a
Speaker 1: production called Look Homeward Angel, that your ideas around acting
Speaker 1: seem to be kind of transformed.
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 1: It's very good research on your part, and you are
Speaker 1: one hundred percent correct. My journey into acting was not
Speaker 1: one where I I really knew what I wanted. I
Speaker 1: knew that I was good at it, but I didn't
Speaker 1: really know how do you go about it?
Speaker 2: You had done a little bit in high school.
Speaker 1: Yeah, high school, I'd done that. My mom had helped
Speaker 1: sort of propel me into that. I think she saw
Speaker 1: that there was a talent in there. I loved doing
Speaker 1: the high school musicals and plays, but the next step
Speaker 1: was college, and I was really lost my first year
Speaker 1: of college and ended up going back home, dropping out
Speaker 1: my last semester of my first year and working to
Speaker 1: make some money. And the idea was I was going
Speaker 1: to go to this Summerstock Really Theater company, and while
Speaker 1: I was there as an apprentice, I was cast as
Speaker 1: a lead role in Lacomord Angel, which was the chestnut
Speaker 1: that they did every year at Flat Rock Playhouse. Thomas
Speaker 1: Wolfe was the original author. He was born in Asheville,
Speaker 1: and audiences loved it, so I was cast. I had
Speaker 1: my first real professional acting experience. I had a wonderful
Speaker 1: director named Earl Wentz, who pretty much talked me through
Speaker 1: the whole thing, and that was the summer of seventy eight,
Speaker 1: and I went back again in the summer of seventy
Speaker 1: nine did the role again, had a very meaningful relationship,
Speaker 1: one of my first early relationships with an actress, and
Speaker 1: it was a magical summer and really set me on
Speaker 1: my path. And I returned to school with a new direction,
Speaker 1: with a new desire to really to train as an actor.
Speaker 2: A new sense of purpose. It was you said once,
Speaker 2: it was like the whole world blew apart. It felt
Speaker 2: so comfortable. It was like I was gradually learning that
Speaker 2: it was okay to be imperfect.
Speaker 1: That's a pretty big statement.
Speaker 2: It's a big statement. Sounds like the rat from the
Speaker 2: eldest son of a family that looked to that son
Speaker 2: to be close to perfect.
Speaker 1: It was a family where there were expectations, that's for sure,
Speaker 1: but it was also a family that had a tremendous
Speaker 1: allowance when you think about it. My dad was a stockbroker,
Speaker 1: my mom was She studied as a school teacher and
Speaker 1: then she was in public relations. Then she got back
Speaker 1: into the educational world for the school system. So this
Speaker 1: is what they know. They have three sons, all three
Speaker 1: of us pursued careers in the arts for at least
Speaker 1: a period of time. So I went into the acting
Speaker 1: thing pretty early on. My middle brother, Craig, was a
Speaker 1: musician for a number of years. My youngest brother was
Speaker 1: also an actor, and then they moved on to other things.
Speaker 1: But our parents were allowing that to happen, which was
Speaker 1: pretty special.
Speaker 2: When you go back to college and you finish up
Speaker 2: your time over there, what about acting made sense to you?
Speaker 2: What about it excited you enough to say, all right,
Speaker 2: I think I need to do this.
Speaker 1: You know, I was inspired by some of what I
Speaker 1: saw that school, and nothing more than the reaction of like,
Speaker 1: I want to do that. It was a visceral reaction,
Speaker 1: very visceral. There was a training program at the University
Speaker 1: of Washington at the time, professional Actors Training, that was
Speaker 1: very intense, very specialized training, acting training. In fact, you
Speaker 1: got to do I got to BFA in acting. And
Speaker 1: these were actors that were trained for repertory theater. So
Speaker 1: all day was spent doing some aspect of what you
Speaker 1: might do as an actor, not as a set designer
Speaker 1: or as a lighting person, but as only acting. I
Speaker 1: was a horrible student, and what sense I just I
Speaker 1: couldn't do any of the exercises right. It took a
Speaker 1: while to sort of tame me and bring me and
Speaker 1: to understand why these things were important. It was a
Speaker 1: lot to do with emotions, and those were things that
Speaker 1: I was not comfortable with.
Speaker 2: And why was that?
Speaker 1: I think it was just maybe expectations you said earlier,
Speaker 1: you know, as you know perfect the kind of things
Speaker 1: like that, or that these were not things you necessarily
Speaker 1: were going to show. It was much more comfortable with
Speaker 1: funny comedy, you know, fun stuff. Some of the more
Speaker 1: dark and difficult and emotional experiences or scenes, if you will,
Speaker 1: or those even those just emotions I was not really
Speaker 1: comfortable with.
Speaker 2: So then you take your aversion to dark and difficult
Speaker 2: emotions and decide, you know what I should do is
Speaker 2: work with David Lynch.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: On my first film, you're a little bit out of college,
Speaker 2: you're twenty three, twenty four years old. You fly to
Speaker 2: Los Angeles for an audition and what would become this
Speaker 2: forty million dollar film in Dune. But I want to
Speaker 2: hold that day that you audition for a second. You
Speaker 2: touch down Nelly X in the afternoon, you're taken to
Speaker 2: the Universal lot and you're told to wait as David
Speaker 2: Lynch finishes his late lunch of coffee and chocolate milkshakes
Speaker 2: at Bob's Big Boy across the street. It's where he
Speaker 2: went to lunch almost every day, always a late lunch,
Speaker 2: always opting for the coffee and chocolate milkshakes. Have had
Speaker 2: a heart attack by day three of that experience. As
Speaker 2: you're sitting there waiting, right, I was wondering what images
Speaker 2: in this moment first come to mind, Like what do
Speaker 2: you remember seeing and what do you remember feeling in
Speaker 2: that moment.
Speaker 1: The backlot Bungalows is where I had been taken was.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that that's what they were, but this
Speaker 1: is where they were prepping for Dune. They were small,
Speaker 1: had a certain kind of smell because they'd been around
Speaker 1: for a long time.
Speaker 2: What kind of you know?
Speaker 1: It was kind of a musty old smell. You know,
Speaker 1: you walk into a place. I mean, the carpet was
Speaker 1: was new and everything, but it was an old, old construction.
Speaker 2: Because it is an audio medium, so you need to
Speaker 2: need to add description.
Speaker 1: Very good. It was a dark and stormy night. We
Speaker 1: go now we know you're a podcast, And I sat
Speaker 1: and I thought to myself, David's coming, and everyone was like,
Speaker 1: David's coming. I was like, I wonder what he's like,
Speaker 1: you know, have no idea. Yeah, I'd seen eraser Head
Speaker 1: and I thought this is an unusual film. I said,
Speaker 1: I have no idea.
Speaker 2: That's what I thought. That's a well adjusted man.
Speaker 1: Someone you want to spend some time with in a
Speaker 1: dark room. And I remember seeing they said, oh, he's here,
Speaker 1: He's here. He comes in and is sort of a hey,
Speaker 1: how you doing, very friendly, kind of feels like a
Speaker 1: Midwestern kind of sensibility. Great to see it. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: has kind of a kind of a little bit of
Speaker 1: a twang, kind of a nasal thing like this, and
Speaker 1: sit down and really made me feel comfortable and very personable.
Speaker 1: And we sat in a room and I remember it
Speaker 1: was it was not a I mean it was kind
Speaker 1: of a desk chair, not much going on as you
Speaker 1: would imagine in a in those because they're temporary, these facilities,
Speaker 1: and we just sat and we talked, not about Dune.
Speaker 1: We talked about where you grew up, you know, and
Speaker 1: what it was like. And we turns out we shared
Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest. There's a location for he's from Missoula,
Speaker 1: grew up in Missoula and some of the other cities
Speaker 1: around that area. As dad was in the Forest Service.
Speaker 1: I grew up in Yakama. We you know, we talked
Speaker 1: about that. I talked about spending time up at Priest
Speaker 1: Lake when I was a little kid with my grandparents,
Speaker 1: and he recognized that. He said, ohyeah, knew about that.
Speaker 1: So we found these common links. And at the end
Speaker 1: of the conversation, he said, here's the script to Doune.
Speaker 1: And he handed me a very thick script, my first
Speaker 1: ever film script that i'd seen. It's like wow, And
Speaker 1: he said he learned these scenes here and they had
Speaker 1: been marked up, and we'll screen test, and you know,
Speaker 1: come back in about four or five days and we'll
Speaker 1: screen test. And I said, sounds great. So I went
Speaker 1: back to Seattle and I learned the scenes, came back
Speaker 1: down five days later and screen tested. Very nervous.
Speaker 2: How did you work through those nerves?
Speaker 1: I think I was ready, you know, I'd graduated, spent
Speaker 1: three years in training, very intense training, kind of launched
Speaker 1: into the world. I worked at the Shakespeare Festival right
Speaker 1: out of school. I was doing a play in Seattle.
Speaker 1: I'd had some success, and I was on my way
Speaker 1: and I think there was a sense of confidence that
Speaker 1: was there that overrode the nerves, and I couldn't believe
Speaker 1: on nice all the people were that I was surrounded by.
Speaker 1: You know, they had they had hair and makeup. I
Speaker 1: never had hair and makeup done. This is something you
Speaker 1: did in the theater yourself. They had the costume for you,
Speaker 1: the wardrobe stuff, and I was like, this is amazing.
Speaker 1: And we were I remember we were working at John
Speaker 1: Dyster Studio Apage Studio, which is where they had the
Speaker 1: screen test and had the scenes down cold, and I
Speaker 1: knew kind of what to do, and he just told
Speaker 1: me to do you know, stand here, do this kind
Speaker 1: of like laid it out for me. I'd never got
Speaker 1: in front of a camera before. I had to do
Speaker 1: one speech, in particular straight to the camera. That was
Speaker 1: a tough one. That's where I sort of lost my focus.
Speaker 1: And David came in and said, you got this. He
Speaker 1: just said, you know you're gonna be okay. Just you know,
Speaker 1: take your time, it's all right, You're doing great, you know,
Speaker 1: just a very simple words of encouragement that I took
Speaker 1: the heart and finished the scene and I went back
Speaker 1: to my hotel. The Beverly Garland Holiday Inn, and there
Speaker 1: was a bottle of wine on my table, and David
Speaker 1: had sent that bottle over as a gesture of goodwill,
Speaker 1: thank you, and kind of I think you you know,
Speaker 1: I hope this works out.
Speaker 2: Your description of the beginning of your career sounds very serene. Yeah,
Speaker 2: sort of easy going. The making of the movie. Was
Speaker 2: it as easy going as that?
Speaker 1: Well, it was an adventure, yes, it was an in Mexico. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I guess what I'm trying to get at is like
Speaker 2: when you're on the set of your first movie and
Speaker 2: it's this big enterprise and you're the lead of it
Speaker 2: and Sting is in it.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: Interesting choice now that the film is like celebrating its
Speaker 2: fortieth anniversary this year. Yeah, I'm just wondering, did you
Speaker 2: know when you were making it that things were not
Speaker 2: going perhaps as planned.
Speaker 1: I didn't have anything to based on compare.
Speaker 2: It to R Did it seemed normal?
Speaker 1: It seemed normal to me in a weird way. It
Speaker 1: seemed extravagant and it was spectacular to look at the
Speaker 1: sets that we were working in were complete rooms. It
Speaker 1: wasn't like a fake, you know, breakaway.
Speaker 2: Stuff, tons of extras.
Speaker 1: Tons of extras. Costumes were insanely meticulous and beautiful, and
Speaker 1: some of them were rather uncomfortable. But I just and
Speaker 1: I love the people I was working with. I got,
Speaker 1: you know, Patrick Stewart, Everett McGill, Jurgen proc Now, maxwn Sido,
Speaker 1: Francesca Annis, I mean, Sean Young, on and on people
Speaker 1: were It was like we were having a great, great
Speaker 1: time making this. I was having a great time making this.
Speaker 2: So come nineteen eighty four when the film comes out,
Speaker 2: you're in Washington, d C. For the premiere, Right, you
Speaker 2: bring your two brothers, your stepsister, and you're two parents,
Speaker 2: both of whom had remarried I think at that point. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they also brought their new spouses. Yeah, okay, So this
Speaker 2: is what I'm trying to understand. I'm trying to imagine.
Speaker 2: You're sitting in the theater this film comes on. Are
Speaker 2: you watching your mother's reaction the whole time?
Speaker 1: Part of the time, I was certainly aware of it,
Speaker 1: but it was me seeing the film too for the
Speaker 1: first time.
Speaker 2: So what was your family's reaction to the movie? And
Speaker 2: then how do you remember that night in the crowd's
Speaker 2: reaction to the film.
Speaker 1: It was surreal, It is a good word to us,
Speaker 1: I think because it did feel out of and I
Speaker 1: was definitely out of body. In addition to my family,
Speaker 1: it also invited a couple of my good friends as
Speaker 1: well who were there, so I had an entourage, huge entourage.
Speaker 1: Everyone within my group seemed to really enjoy it, had
Speaker 1: a good time. I don't know how much they understood.
Speaker 1: I think they were just kind of overwhelmed, honestly. So
Speaker 1: the experience that night was wonderful and people had a
Speaker 1: great time. Everything was and your mom liked it. My
Speaker 1: mom liked it. I think she was just so proud.
Speaker 1: My mom was one of those very proud moms, and
Speaker 1: that she had encouraged me initially to get into the
Speaker 1: theater and initially to help her out because she was
Speaker 1: sort of managing this teen theater company, the musical side
Speaker 1: of the teenage theater group, and she needed people to come.
Speaker 1: And so we were drafted, my brothers and I were drafted.
Speaker 1: But I really enjoyed it. I didn't think I was
Speaker 1: gonna enjoy it. I resisted, but then I said, no,
Speaker 1: this is actually really fun and socially, socially a good time,
Speaker 1: you know. So she set it in motion.
Speaker 2: So the seed. She planted kind of camp.
Speaker 1: It did, and suddenly she sees this, what's happening? And
Speaker 1: I think it was overwhelming for her, and I think
Speaker 1: she was just so proud.
Speaker 2: When the film opened. You said once that David and
Speaker 2: I went into a sort of tail spin in nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty five. What did that look like?
Speaker 1: Well, so Dune premiered in December of eighty four, and
Speaker 1: I remember we had the premiere and everything was great.
Speaker 1: I all went back home Christmas at home in Yakama,
Speaker 1: and shortly after Christmas, the intention was we were going
Speaker 1: to go shoot Blue Velvet because David had given me
Speaker 1: the script to Blue Velvet. We were going to start
Speaker 1: on that in January. Well, I got a call that
Speaker 1: said the film has been put on hold. Dune. No
Speaker 1: one really said that. Dune wasn't doing very well. It
Speaker 1: wasn't doing very well, but I wasn't really paying attention.
Speaker 1: I was focused on the next thing. I just remember
Speaker 1: getting the call for some reason in my dad's office.
Speaker 1: I don't know why they called me there, but I
Speaker 1: had a manager at that time. They called and said,
Speaker 1: I think you better come down, and you know, we
Speaker 1: got to sort of get going here on the next thing,
Speaker 1: because there was nothing.
Speaker 2: How did you feel on that?
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, I said, sounds like another adventure.
Speaker 1: I was really up for it. And I said, well, well,
Speaker 1: so I packed up my stuff, I got into my jeep,
Speaker 1: and I drove to Los Angeles and found an apartment.
Speaker 1: I had an agent already, and I had a manager
Speaker 1: who was working at a lawyer, and so I was like,
Speaker 1: all right, we'll just we'll figure out this outa I
Speaker 1: had a whole team in place. Yeah.
Speaker 2: But when you say tail spin, did that look like? Well?
Speaker 1: I think it was because we were trying to do
Speaker 1: We were going to go shoot Blue Velvet, and they
Speaker 1: not got canceled and so David David suffered as well.
Speaker 1: So he had, you know, everything all lined up to
Speaker 1: go and then suddenly it's not going. So it's like
Speaker 1: we got to figure this out because Dune got severely
Speaker 1: damaged by the critics. It was it was not pretty,
Speaker 1: and so it was really about finding finding the new direction.
Speaker 1: And we didn't start Blue Velvet until I think August
Speaker 1: of that year. I think that's what it was. It.
Speaker 2: So my understanding is based on all the interviews you
Speaker 2: did at that time, and you did a lot. You've
Speaker 2: described the time as a dark, dark period. The way
Speaker 2: you're talking about it now doesn't sound that dark, but
Speaker 2: at the time, that's how you described it. To hear
Speaker 2: you basically start your career and rapidly ascend and then
Speaker 2: to quickly descend, what did that feel like? What did
Speaker 2: that look like?
Speaker 1: I think I just because I know what you're saying,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of surprised at my response as well. I
Speaker 1: think part of it was just naivete As I look
Speaker 1: back on it, I just I knew that I was
Speaker 1: not aware of the significance of that that that kind
Speaker 1: of response from the industry is something very difficult to
Speaker 1: come back from because you were given his golden opportunity
Speaker 1: and it failed tremendously, and all the hopes and the
Speaker 1: expectations that you might have, or even from people that
Speaker 1: are thinking, hey, there's a you know, that's why I
Speaker 1: had five Dune options and three non Dune options. As
Speaker 1: Dino says, I'm going to make this get a star
Speaker 1: and we're going to now we're going to use that
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, and we're going to put
Speaker 1: him in all these doing all these things that didn't happen. Thankfully. Actually,
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I was lucky.
Speaker 2: Why is that?
Speaker 1: Well, it was just, you know, everything had been negotiated
Speaker 1: to pre neegotiated, not that it couldn't have been changed,
Speaker 1: but I didn't have that much choice in what I
Speaker 1: was going to end up having to do, whatever that
Speaker 1: was going to be. I was looking forward to doing
Speaker 1: more Dunes. I mean, I love the book growing up.
Speaker 1: This is a huge had a huge influence on my
Speaker 1: life when I was a kid. But Blue Velvet. When
Speaker 1: I read the script that David gave me while we
Speaker 1: were filming Dune, I was really enchanted with it. I
Speaker 1: really there was something about it that I felt connected
Speaker 1: to somehow, or I understood the journey. It was interesting,
Speaker 1: was something you could I could really you know, playing
Speaker 1: Paul the Traydees is a challenge because so much of
Speaker 1: it is internal. And here was Jeffrey Beaumont going through
Speaker 1: these experiences and I said, oh, this is kind of
Speaker 1: something that I can relate to. I understand what might
Speaker 1: happen with the character.
Speaker 2: Someone having some trouble accessing emotions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But at the same time, it was that was
Speaker 1: part of the journey for me because he does get
Speaker 1: to the point where a breaking point. Yeah, and that
Speaker 1: was a it was it was a breaking point for
Speaker 1: the character. Was also sort of a breakthrough point for
Speaker 1: me in an odd way because it required this emotional
Speaker 1: reactionless response. And David, again coming back to David was very,
Speaker 1: very generous and helpful, gentle through the process and allowed
Speaker 1: me the time and space to be able to do
Speaker 1: that scene. You know, it help help me, help me
Speaker 1: sort of get through that.
Speaker 2: What were you working for?
Speaker 1: I think it was just the idea of that kind
Speaker 1: of exposure, that kind of like vulnerability. Honestly, I think
Speaker 1: in that moment in an environment that is not necessarily
Speaker 1: you're surrounded by people, the cameras there, there's a clock ticking,
Speaker 1: there's an expectation this is going to happen at a
Speaker 1: certain point in time in the scene, and that stuff
Speaker 1: will make you know, it makes you freeze up. It
Speaker 1: makes me freeze up, gets me tighten tighten up is
Speaker 1: a good word. But again, David was generous and kind
Speaker 1: with the time and the allowance and everything, and I
Speaker 1: was very I was like.
Speaker 2: Okay, I've rewatched the film recently and what is striking
Speaker 2: to may in part because of the research Is that
Speaker 2: why you're making this film. It seems to me that
Speaker 2: you were grappling with this divorce that your parents had
Speaker 2: had not that long before, right, and your mother who
Speaker 2: was very sick at the time. I think she had
Speaker 2: ovarian cancer, Is that right?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: That seems like a whole lot to hold on top
Speaker 2: of the charged, unsettling world of Blue Velvet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a lot going on, I mean in
Speaker 1: terms of the divorce that happened in uh, your senior
Speaker 1: year of high school, yeah, seventy seven, and it was something.
Speaker 2: We all deal with things, usually in.
Speaker 1: A different way, I know, it's true, and especially if
Speaker 1: you're if you're young and somewhat self absorbed, as I was.
Speaker 1: I don't have that young and self absorbed in the research.
Speaker 1: It's but at the same time, I think my brothers
Speaker 1: and I recognized that our mom wasn't wasn't working with
Speaker 1: my dad, and she had found someone that she would
Speaker 1: felt very to and we were happy for her. At
Speaker 1: the same time, we know it was difficult from my
Speaker 1: father of course, and we sort of would try to
Speaker 1: be there for him as well.
Speaker 2: Well. There's so much more than what meets the eye
Speaker 2: in both Blue Velvet and Twin Peaks and in your
Speaker 2: new podcast, obviously there's this tension and turmoil bubbling underneath
Speaker 2: the surface, with you at the center playing characters that
Speaker 2: have been described as quote Dudley do rights with dark
Speaker 2: closets and their souls, decent guys with time shares in
Speaker 2: the nether world. I like that, and I was wondering,
Speaker 2: I don't know, like, especially in the aftermath of your
Speaker 2: mother's passing, because she never got to see this film.
Speaker 1: Bitch, she never saw blue velvet. She never got to
Speaker 1: see a blue Velvet's probably a blessing. Although I do
Speaker 1: I give her credit. I think she would have come
Speaker 1: away understanding what David was trying to do. It's a
Speaker 1: difficult journey.
Speaker 2: It's a difficult journey and a difficult film even now
Speaker 2: talking about. But do you think you were especially attuned
Speaker 2: to these projects, to playing characters with friendly exteriors complicated interiors,
Speaker 2: because you yourself moved through the world as that eager
Speaker 2: to please model child, the person that you said was
Speaker 2: not comfortable with the emotions. Yeah, at Summer Stock.
Speaker 1: Yeah. See. The thing is, I don't feel that I
Speaker 1: was that different than most of the people that were
Speaker 1: around me. My peers.
Speaker 2: I guess.
Speaker 1: You know, certainly in school, you know, these are things
Speaker 1: that you wrestled with, and I just chose to not
Speaker 1: deal with them when I was in school and chose
Speaker 1: other you know, I would do a left turn on something,
Speaker 1: was like, oh that's not I'm not going to go in.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go there, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I remember one in particular, there was we were meant
Speaker 1: to do an emotional scene in our voice class where
Speaker 1: we wrote our own thing, a story of some kind
Speaker 1: of personal story. And I certainly had a lot that
Speaker 1: I could have talked with, but I was always worried
Speaker 1: or concerned or afraid that it would either explode or
Speaker 1: I was just afraid of what the what might come out.
Speaker 1: Let's just say that, you know. And I said, I
Speaker 1: don't want to see that or show that, or have
Speaker 1: people see that. I was like, I don't think so,
Speaker 1: so I show. I would always do a comedy thing
Speaker 1: and you know, sort of dance out of it that way,
Speaker 1: and the teacher was always like shaking her head, like
Speaker 1: you did not do the exercise, and I don't know
Speaker 1: if I can pass you in this course. But I
Speaker 1: finally did. I finally did what and you.
Speaker 2: Do kind of explode towards the end of Blue Velvet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he has such a journey, that character, and he
Speaker 1: has the forces that are working on him that both
Speaker 1: Dennis Opera character Frank and Isabella Rousseolne his Dorothy that
Speaker 1: it was more about me reacting to what they were
Speaker 1: doing than anything else.
Speaker 2: After the break, we talked about Blue Velvet, Twin Peaks,
Speaker 2: the Return, and a whole lot more. That's all coming
Speaker 2: up next with Kyle McLaughlin in terms of getting back
Speaker 2: to that that love you felt in North Carolina in
Speaker 2: summerstock acting for the first time in a real professional setting,
Speaker 2: going I need to do this. That visceral feeling was
Speaker 2: Blue Velvet or Twin Peaks the kind of first time
Speaker 2: you got to feel that on a film set.
Speaker 1: No, you know, I feltated on everything. I think what
Speaker 1: I love still love is the it's almost an investigative
Speaker 1: process with a character and that kind of exploration discovery
Speaker 1: of what this person is and how they fit within
Speaker 1: the world that they are of the story. That is
Speaker 1: always something that It's something I think that was what
Speaker 1: I loved, even though maybe I didn't really understand what
Speaker 1: it was in the very beginning. It was that process
Speaker 1: of becoming another person, of creating another reality that I
Speaker 1: really really liked.
Speaker 2: So what was that process like for Agent Cooper late eighties,
Speaker 2: early nineties making Twin Peaks? What does that look like?
Speaker 1: It is a lot of joy, a lot of fun,
Speaker 1: Just great pleasure in exploring some of the things that
Speaker 1: he relishes as a character, whether it's fir trees or
Speaker 1: coffee or cherry pie, and kind of embracing the quirkiness
Speaker 1: of that as well well, just turn a phrase or
Speaker 1: an observation or you know, something he gets excited about,
Speaker 1: and finding the letter under the fingernail, you know with
Speaker 1: the Tweezers, you know, the kind of stuff like that,
Speaker 1: having a mystery, having a secret, and then also working
Speaker 1: with David. It was simply that the pleasure of that
Speaker 1: and the joy of seeing him smile or laugh, you know,
Speaker 1: that felt to me like we're onto something here.
Speaker 2: When you mentioned those like investigative elements that you were
Speaker 2: talking about and making the character. Is that process different
Speaker 2: for each role and for that one in particular? What
Speaker 2: did that look like to you?
Speaker 1: And it is different, But the journey is the journey
Speaker 1: is different, but the process is the same. So it's
Speaker 1: really about using the script as a blueprint and then
Speaker 1: bringing in your own who I am and my thoughts
Speaker 1: and feelings about it. And then you have another layer,
Speaker 1: which is the working component with the other person and
Speaker 1: what that dynamic is and how that changes and morphs
Speaker 1: as you go through a scene.
Speaker 2: And did your relationship with David Chang by that point,
Speaker 2: I know he only did the first couple episodes, but
Speaker 2: having made Doune then Blue Velvet, Yeah here, yeah, YouTube,
Speaker 2: both probably changed as artists in that time.
Speaker 1: I think, Yes. I think the impact of the structure
Speaker 1: of episodic television like that on network television was one
Speaker 1: that I think we both didn't anticipate having such a
Speaker 1: strong influence. And well, I think it was. It was
Speaker 1: creatively not that fulfilling. Honestly, the expectations that were that
Speaker 1: are in place, that that exists for a reason. You know,
Speaker 1: you've got to move the story forward, you have to
Speaker 1: satisfy your your audience. And I don't think that's something
Speaker 1: that David thinks about. He's creating something that works for
Speaker 1: him when he does his work, and so I think
Speaker 1: having to answer to other people something that he just
Speaker 1: was not into at all that was challenging.
Speaker 2: You've said multiple times that you were frustrated that he
Speaker 2: made the show and that he left, and then you
Speaker 2: were kind of there to continue making.
Speaker 1: Trying to yeah, trying to hold it together. But I
Speaker 1: at the same I mean, from this perspective, I understand
Speaker 1: this is not who he is as an artist, and
Speaker 1: twin peaks, I don't know if in their minds it
Speaker 1: really was meant to be more than what it was.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think this. I think the idea of
Speaker 1: a of an ongoing story was really appealing to David.
Speaker 1: But it was a story that would have had so
Speaker 1: many branches and variety, and it wasn't really about solving
Speaker 1: the murder ever. Really it was about that about the
Speaker 1: journey of these interesting, quirky, eccentric characters.
Speaker 2: You said at some point the show wasn't creatively satisfying
Speaker 2: to him. Did you also come to a point where
Speaker 2: it wasn't what you wanted creatively as an artist? As
Speaker 2: an actor, I felt like.
Speaker 1: That the role of Cooper over the course of time
Speaker 1: became less and less. I kind of got watered down
Speaker 1: a little bit. Part of that my own mistakes, and well,
Speaker 1: when we meet him, you know, he's so identifiable in
Speaker 1: the black suit and everything, and then there wasn't There
Speaker 1: was a movement to try to get him to become
Speaker 1: more localized, so they had different outfits for him. He
Speaker 1: would become more more part of the community, and it
Speaker 1: was an interesting idea. I think in hindsight, I think
Speaker 1: it was a mistake. I think having him in that
Speaker 1: black suit, as you know, as the outsider, would have
Speaker 1: been a stronger, stronger choice, different I think, but he
Speaker 1: was less and less engaged and became more and more
Speaker 1: about talking about what was happening as opposed to being
Speaker 1: involved in the actual process.
Speaker 2: When the show doesn't. We've read a few quotes you've had,
Speaker 2: and there's really one that has stuck with me that
Speaker 2: I just want to hold because you said, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm talking about the conditions of making work. I don't
Speaker 2: do well with manic energy around me, and I used
Speaker 2: to say that you had to have that to be
Speaker 2: a good actor. Well, did you learned that before, during,
Speaker 2: or after you made Showgirls?
Speaker 1: Oh? I remember saying the manic energy part. But I
Speaker 1: do like a focus and kind of a set that
Speaker 1: is there's a sense of calm about it. Everyone was
Speaker 1: working in a different way. There's a sense of fun
Speaker 1: that people should. You should enjoy being there what you're doing,
Speaker 1: regardless of how I mean. Sometimes the scenes are not
Speaker 1: going to be that enjoyable, but you should be able to.
Speaker 1: It should be an enjoyable experience. I think it should breathe.
Speaker 1: It's got to breathe.
Speaker 2: But was there a period in your life where you
Speaker 2: felt like the way to be a good actor is
Speaker 2: to have a lot of drama around me?
Speaker 1: There is something to be said for the creating the environment.
Speaker 1: The tone of the tone of the environment that you're
Speaker 1: shooting is should match the tone of what's happening in
Speaker 1: the script, you know what I mean? For the story.
Speaker 1: That's helpful And was that true on Show Girls? Most
Speaker 1: of my stuff in show World was was were two
Speaker 1: person scenes. There were some stuff that were or there
Speaker 1: were two persons focused was me and Elizabeth a lot
Speaker 1: of the time. Sometimes, Gina, I haven't.
Speaker 2: Seen the film in a long time. I just really
Speaker 2: watched it.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen it in a long time myself.
Speaker 2: Stuff. I would look at Pools the same light again.
Speaker 1: I know. I thank god they heeded it, because you know,
Speaker 1: you spend a lot of time in the water after
Speaker 1: four or five hours. Yeah, I don't care how warm
Speaker 1: the pool is. Your body is cold and you're starting.
Speaker 1: Your energy is going. That part which I don't know
Speaker 1: how the camera guys did. I mean, they're in it
Speaker 1: for the whole time.
Speaker 2: Was the experience of of the that film's release.
Speaker 1: Similar to the release, it was another huge disaster. They
Speaker 1: screened the film for me the day before we were
Speaker 1: meant to do the press work on it, and I
Speaker 1: was suddenly I got sick for that for the press
Speaker 1: working cop But sadly, sadly, I came down with something there.
Speaker 2: Coffee.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like bad, bad coffee, yeah, pre covid actually,
Speaker 1: but the film was Yeah, it was pretty much. I
Speaker 1: think we swept the Razzies that year, I'm sure, or
Speaker 1: if we didn't, we should have. There's so much camp
Speaker 1: in it to use that word, and the only way
Speaker 1: you can really successfully do that is if you're absolutely
Speaker 1: serious in what you're creating in the moment, what you
Speaker 1: definitely say it to be, which I was. We were
Speaker 1: all very committed. So when you see it and it's
Speaker 1: completely kind of over the top, no one's winking, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, We're all like, yes, and we're
Speaker 1: going all the way, and that's what creates this sort
Speaker 1: of successful campy movie. That's me.
Speaker 2: Now, did you close your eyes during your own sex scene?
Speaker 1: I was working really hard to try to keep Elizabeth
Speaker 1: from falling off my lap, to be quite honest. So
Speaker 1: it was exhausting, and I felt bad for her because
Speaker 1: she was almost drowning in the sequence. It was not pretty.
Speaker 2: I think that film, whatever the criticisms are, I think
Speaker 2: you're commitment in that film, and then really and everything
Speaker 2: else that was to come is maybe your greatest gift
Speaker 2: as an actor. You are committed. Yes, whether it's Sex
Speaker 2: and the City right or Portlandia or the Return of
Speaker 2: Twin Peaks, you are committed. Yeah, through the two thousands
Speaker 2: and you're making all this work. You've likened your acting
Speaker 2: process to quote, a pot of simmering water on the
Speaker 2: stove when you wake up on the morning. When you
Speaker 2: wake up on the morning and you have to shoot
Speaker 2: that day, yeah, how do you work yourself into an
Speaker 2: emotional state?
Speaker 1: Depends on what I need to do for the day, right,
Speaker 1: But if it's a scene that is it's going to
Speaker 1: require some release that kind of thing. I think there's
Speaker 1: a you know, the pot simmering metaphor is sort of
Speaker 1: you know, you want to keep the at least I do.
Speaker 1: I want to keep what's happening in me, whatever the
Speaker 1: if there are memories that I have, or if it's
Speaker 1: a sense of openness that I resisted so much when
Speaker 1: I was younger, you're alreadly working on trying to keep
Speaker 1: the channels open and available.
Speaker 2: When did that change for you? Oh?
Speaker 1: I think as as imateured, I think again started working more.
Speaker 1: I realized. But that's how to do it, That's how
Speaker 1: what worked for me, to excavate memories. Yeah, yeah, you
Speaker 1: know all of all the actors tools, you know, whether
Speaker 1: it's sense, memory, things you talk about. It gets to
Speaker 1: the point where imagination plays a big part of it.
Speaker 1: Music helps even you know, at a certain point in time,
Speaker 1: just the reality of the scene or the moment of
Speaker 1: the scene or what's coming off the other actor can
Speaker 1: also have that kind of impact if you're open to
Speaker 1: it and allow it.
Speaker 2: Do you believe when actors say that acting can be therapeutic?
Speaker 2: Do you think that's true or do you think therapy
Speaker 2: can be therapeutic?
Speaker 1: Yeah, therapies there can be therapeutic. You know, you're you're
Speaker 1: pulling from yourself. A lot of of what you do
Speaker 1: the character is written, but you're you're trying to find
Speaker 1: places where where the connection is. And if I don't
Speaker 1: have those kind of connections, and I'll look in myself,
Speaker 1: or I'll try to figure out what is happening with
Speaker 1: the character and maybe have empathy with something, that would
Speaker 1: be You've got to find a way to connect with
Speaker 1: the character. I don't know if it's therapy so much
Speaker 1: as sort of acknowledgment of something or like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't know that was in me. You know, I
Speaker 1: didn't know. I didn't know I could I could do that.
Speaker 2: You know. When we began talking today, we went through
Speaker 2: this small town that's at the heart of your show, Yeah,
Speaker 2: which many people have described as a real life Twin
Speaker 2: Peaks in North Carolina, And I was thinking about from
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four till about twenty fifteen. Reporters and fans
Speaker 2: but always ask you, when are you and David Lynch
Speaker 2: going to work together again? And something you'd say about
Speaker 2: the role of Agent Cooper is that quote with that character,
Speaker 2: a really dark ink was used. I think it needs
Speaker 2: to fade out a little more until we can come
Speaker 2: back together.
Speaker 1: Well, I sound very poetic. It's fun because some of
Speaker 1: the quotes are like I'm remember saying that at all.
Speaker 1: But then you sort of work. The writer did a
Speaker 1: nice job, right, He made me sound sort of like
Speaker 1: a writer inside your own house, semi smart. I don't
Speaker 1: know by the time you and Lynch made twin Peaks
Speaker 1: of Return, did you think that dark Ink had sufficiently faded?
Speaker 1: Like what needed to happen right for the two of
Speaker 1: you to come back together. I mean, I think it
Speaker 1: was pretty It was pretty simple. I think it was
Speaker 1: the fans, honestly, that kept reminding us that in the
Speaker 1: original you had said see you in twenty five years,
Speaker 1: and so they were like, well, you know, come on,
Speaker 1: make it happen, make it. So there was that. There
Speaker 1: was also I think Mark Frost and David Lynch were
Speaker 1: at a place where working together was a possibility. They
Speaker 1: both all the projects and things that they've been doing
Speaker 1: sort of came to bear on this. But I think
Speaker 1: more than anything, it was the idea. David talks about
Speaker 1: having the idea, and he needed he needs to have
Speaker 1: an idea that then grows. I think he had one
Speaker 1: that was working until something a seed was planted and
Speaker 1: it started to grow and it kept growing. I know
Speaker 1: he always had. He always loved Twin Peaks. He loves
Speaker 1: the world of Twin Peaks, and I think but the
Speaker 1: only way he would want it to go back is
Speaker 1: if he could do it in his own way. I
Speaker 1: was nervous. I mean, I knew that Cooper would emerge,
Speaker 1: and I said, Cooper is going to be whoever he
Speaker 1: is who me after twenty five years, So that's going
Speaker 1: to be. That'll be what it's going to be.
Speaker 2: I said, who were you? Twenty five years later?
Speaker 1: You know he's he still has the enthusiasm. There's a
Speaker 1: sense of boyishness about him. And this is both both.
Speaker 1: You know, we don't know when the coffee runs out.
Speaker 1: And the role of Dougie was was that took a
Speaker 1: lot of courage because he was so deadpan, and I
Speaker 1: was like, I don't know if this is going to work.
Speaker 1: But the challenge, the most challenging was the role of
Speaker 1: Beav a Cooper or the doppelganger mister C. I said
Speaker 1: to David, I think at one point, I don't know
Speaker 1: if I can pull this off. Maybe I didn't say
Speaker 1: that because I didn't want to make him nervous. But
Speaker 1: I said, I have to or we don't have a
Speaker 1: We don't have serious.
Speaker 2: What did you not think you could pull on?
Speaker 1: Well, he's just he's very you know, he's a psychopath,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And he doesn't care. I
Speaker 1: am fancy myself an empathic person, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I like to engage like care.
Speaker 1: I want to know what people are being feeling and
Speaker 1: want to make sure that they're okay. So someone like
Speaker 1: you said earlier, if it's not to please necessarily, but
Speaker 1: it's at least to be available to people. He's not
Speaker 1: Missussy is not. And I said, okay, I got to
Speaker 1: go in and find that. And it was really challenging
Speaker 1: and satisfying in a way, and it was a character
Speaker 1: that I really enjoyed taking off. At the end of
Speaker 1: the day when I got out of the suit and stuff,
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, you know, I can come back.
Speaker 1: But it was definitely it was definitely a change that
Speaker 1: low boil you talk about of keeping that energy when
Speaker 1: I was playing Msischi character. That was definitely there.
Speaker 2: Are you happy with the work?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I am?
Speaker 2: Or is that generally true? Is that that something that's
Speaker 2: hard for you to like. Is it hard for you
Speaker 2: to enjoy or think or say, you know, actually, I
Speaker 2: am proud of this one.
Speaker 1: It is hard for me to say that most of
Speaker 1: the time, even though I think it. It's like, ah,
Speaker 1: you know, it's also that perfectionist thing where it's like
Speaker 1: there was still there's still a room. Don't rest on this,
Speaker 1: just keep you know, they eld the sun's streaks that
Speaker 1: it will halt me for the rest of my life.
Speaker 2: Your father was a tough Uh. He was a tough
Speaker 2: one to play. It wasn't he was critical.
Speaker 1: He was critical. I didn't think that he was that
Speaker 1: critical until until years after he had passed. And I
Speaker 1: don't know why I never really discover like a diary entry. No,
Speaker 1: I guess I ready diary. No, I just remember moments
Speaker 1: that I would somehow, I mean, they affected me, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. But but I wouldn't let them
Speaker 1: really affect me.
Speaker 2: You're big on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't like to be manipulated or affected, you know,
Speaker 1: in a way, and which is as an actor not
Speaker 1: a good things. You have to allow that to happen.
Speaker 1: And then but he would also I got to say
Speaker 1: in his defense, he would he was also that was
Speaker 1: pretty good. He would say that that's a pretty good
Speaker 1: job there. He was a pretty fair critic, tough critic.
Speaker 2: You learned that year's later, why yeah, well, you.
Speaker 1: Know, I would think back, you know, on things that
Speaker 1: he would say. I remember my first vintage of my wine,
Speaker 1: you know, when I in two thousand and five and
Speaker 1: he came to taste taste it. And he tasted and
Speaker 1: you know, three months in the barrel or six months,
Speaker 1: even six months in the barrel is not tasting like wine.
Speaker 1: It's tasting kind of funky. And he said, you know,
Speaker 1: we say, are you sure this is going to be
Speaker 1: any good? You know, it's like, I don't know. That's
Speaker 1: what the winemaker says it's supposed to be. But he
Speaker 1: was also very present. He was definitely like engaged as
Speaker 1: a father, right, which is very cool. And the same
Speaker 1: thing with my son. If my son comes to me
Speaker 1: and says, hey, dad, Dad, I'm gonna come out, can
Speaker 1: you come out and video me skateboarding? I could be
Speaker 1: in the middle of something and I'm not going to
Speaker 1: drop what I'm doing. I'm like, let's go. We went
Speaker 1: surfing the other day and he had his whole plan
Speaker 1: because he didn't have to be to school till eleven thirty,
Speaker 1: So we were up at five forty five in the morning. Yeah,
Speaker 1: off we went, and he surfed a pretty intense, pretty
Speaker 1: narrowly spot off pch and I was there videoing him
Speaker 1: and doing it and really really enjoying it, loved it.
Speaker 2: You have been enjoying a whole lot of videos I've
Speaker 2: seen recently of you on TikTok. Yes, I think your
Speaker 2: son is the sort of final arborter. I think you
Speaker 2: called them of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to check in with him and now
Speaker 1: and then just to say, hey, listen, am I ruining
Speaker 1: your riz in school? And he said no, no, no,
Speaker 1: it's okay, Dad, I'm fine.
Speaker 2: That's how you phrased the question.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because that's I speak like that now you do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've completely transformed as an actor.
Speaker 1: Does Yes, you must change, we must roll the punches
Speaker 1: and change with the times.
Speaker 2: But do you think being a viral TikTok star is
Speaker 2: the role of a lifetime for it?
Speaker 1: I am sort of enjoying this new notoriety. It will,
Speaker 1: I'm sure, disappeared just as quickly as it came up,
Speaker 1: as we all do as we all do. It just
Speaker 1: seems to I'm working with some very very obviously some
Speaker 1: very clever people, but I'm enjoying the process too. It's
Speaker 1: definitely a collaborative experience, and we're having.
Speaker 2: Fun and thinking about your career in a sort of
Speaker 2: more big picture way.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: People have called up David Lynch many times for profiles
Speaker 2: of yours as a kind of reference. And I always say,
Speaker 2: why do you gravitate towards Kyle? Over and over and
Speaker 2: over again, And he has basically the same quote, some variations,
Speaker 2: but it's basically the same one. And he says, Kyle
Speaker 2: plays innocence who are interested in the mysteries of life.
Speaker 2: He's the person you trust enough to go into the
Speaker 2: strange world with. And I just love that description. And
Speaker 2: I wonder, as you know, soon to be sixty five, Yes,
Speaker 2: if you're still interested in exploring the mysteries of life
Speaker 2: through your work in the years to come, but that's
Speaker 2: something you still want to do, however challenging or complex
Speaker 2: or dark the world may be. Is that something that
Speaker 2: I do? Do you still want to be.
Speaker 1: The gateway I do? And I think part of the
Speaker 1: fun of this looking back over forty plus years. Is
Speaker 1: that that journey pursuing those mysteries changes because I'm now
Speaker 1: not twenty three, and so what I'm interested in and
Speaker 1: where i want to go and what I'm curious about
Speaker 1: completely different, yes, than when I was that age.
Speaker 2: The best analogy I can find to what you do
Speaker 2: as an actor comes from this cartoon perfect that I
Speaker 2: think you really like. And I was wondering if you
Speaker 2: could take a look at it, yeah, and explain it
Speaker 2: to the listeners and see if it means anything to you.
Speaker 1: This is like a mysterious and you can see an
Speaker 1: old man with a cane taking a curtain call and
Speaker 1: the crowd is going crazy. Next you see him backstage
Speaker 1: pulling off the old man costume and you see he's
Speaker 1: a strapping young guy. In the last frame, you see
Speaker 1: him at home pulling off the young man mask and
Speaker 1: he's actually the old man with a cane. I think
Speaker 1: that's pretty brilliant. I love that. There is something that
Speaker 1: I about acting that I think is important to me,
Speaker 1: which is I don't have to agree with everything the
Speaker 1: character does. I don't have to, but I have to
Speaker 1: understand why they do what they do. I have to
Speaker 1: understand where it comes from and I think if you
Speaker 1: understand that, or make an attempt to understand that, you
Speaker 1: are all people, you know what I mean, we are
Speaker 1: all we're all connected as people. But it's like you
Speaker 1: can make that journey between the old man and the
Speaker 1: young man and back again because you are all of
Speaker 1: those things. Somehow that's important to me.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's been pretty much your life's work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, crazy, and I still love doing it. Sam, thank
Speaker 1: you so very much.
Speaker 2: We took the strained scene it round.
Speaker 1: I like this route because it's in both of our
Speaker 1: own words and it's not an article written that would
Speaker 1: modify it. Right. So this is, you know, for better
Speaker 1: or worse. This is this is an expression of this moment,
Speaker 1: which I think is great.
Speaker 2: So this will be Kyle McLaughlin in his own words,
Speaker 2: parentheses and some of Sam's, a.
Speaker 1: Lot of Sam great questions probing. I feel like I've
Speaker 1: been on the couch now for an.
Speaker 2: Hour and you know what, it's a consultation. It will
Speaker 2: be for don't worry.
Speaker 1: That's the best. The coffee was certainly worthwhile. Damn fine,
Speaker 1: damn fine, Calm McLaughlin a pleasure, thanks to And that's
Speaker 1: our show.
Speaker 2: If you enjoy today's episode, be sure to leave us
Speaker 2: five stars on Spotify, Apple, wherever you do your podcast. Then,
Speaker 2: if you want to go above and beyond sharing the
Speaker 2: program with a friend, posting it on social media, if
Speaker 2: you can attack us at talk easypod. Really, all of
Speaker 2: this insures that we can continue doing this work each
Speaker 2: and every Sunday. I want to give a special thanks
Speaker 2: this week to Kira Posey, the team at podcast one, Spotify,
Speaker 2: and our guest Kyle McLauchlin. Kyle's new true crime podcast, Barnumtown,
Speaker 2: is available wherever you are listening to this. If you'd
Speaker 2: like to learn more about the show or any of
Speaker 2: the films we talked about in today's episode, visit our
Speaker 2: show notes at talk easypod dot com for more episodes.
Speaker 2: I'd recommend Laura Dern, Willem Dafoe, the Lee Gladstone, and
Speaker 2: Steven Soderberg to hear those and more. Pushkin Podcast listen
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Speaker 2: can also follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, at talk easypod.
Speaker 2: If you want to purchase one of our mugs at
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Speaker 2: slash shop, want to drop me a lot? Write us
Speaker 2: at SF at talk easypod dot com. Talk Easy is
Speaker 2: produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Jenni sa Bravo.
Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Caitlin Dryden. Today's talk was edited
Speaker 2: by Kitlyn Dryden and mixed by Andrew Vastola, who was
Speaker 2: taped at Spotify Studios in downtown Los Angeles. Our music
Speaker 2: is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by Tricias Chenoy.
Speaker 2: Research assistance from Sharia aaron Ke, Graphics by Ethan Senca.
Speaker 2: I also want to thank Pushkin Industries, Justin Richmond, Julia Barton,
Speaker 2: John Schnars, Kerrie Brody, Eric Sandler, Jorna McMillan, Tara Machado,
Speaker 2: Justin Lang, Sarah Nix, Malcolm Gladwell, Greta Cohen, and Jacob Weisberg.
Speaker 2: I'm San Fragoso. Thank you for listening to Talk Easy.
Speaker 2: I'll see you back here next week with a new episode.
Speaker 2: Until then, stay safe and so long.
Speaker 3: H