Speaker 1: Hi, Hello, welcome. This is Let's talk about miss Baby.
Speaker 1: And this is the third time that I have recorded
Speaker 1: this introduction because I keep being completely incapable of staying
Speaker 1: sounding like a rational human being who people would want
Speaker 1: to listen to. I'm live, I'm the host, and normally
Speaker 1: I'm completely hinged. But right now everything in my life
Speaker 1: is bad and everything in the world is so much worse.
Speaker 1: So we're just all having a time. But thankfully, thankfully,
Speaker 1: at the third time recording this, I'm going to keep
Speaker 1: that horror too minimum. Today I am here with the
Speaker 1: first episode in Women's History Month episodes, which I mean,
Speaker 1: with the state of things, what's the point. But they
Speaker 1: do give me a theme. They give me something to
Speaker 1: work off of. I talk about women in this podcast
Speaker 1: in every single episode. It's the entire point. But see,
Speaker 1: in Women's History Month, I can focus on certain women.
Speaker 1: I can have a theme, something to work towards. I've
Speaker 1: already got incredible episodes planned dreamed up. This month is
Speaker 1: gonna be fun. I hope that's provided I can function
Speaker 1: as a human being. I've got high hopes. But today, thankfully,
Speaker 1: we have an incredible conversation that I recorded months ago
Speaker 1: when I was a functioning adult who didn't feel like
Speaker 1: she was gonna cry at every moment. I spoke with
Speaker 1: the absolutely wonderful, wonderful you Wanna Papadoppolo.
Speaker 2: She has written.
Speaker 1: I just I don't even know how to get into
Speaker 1: this because I'm just so excited. I Wanna has written
Speaker 1: a novel about Demeter, but like the Demeter that I
Speaker 1: didn't know I needed an angry, angry Demeter. I think
Speaker 1: the Demeter we all need right now, the feminine rage Demeter.
Speaker 1: And we had just the most fun talking about Demeter
Speaker 1: as a character about Iwana's novel Winter Harvest.
Speaker 3: It.
Speaker 1: I mean, Demeter is fucking wonderful. And if you didn't
Speaker 1: already gather from her name, Iwana is Greek. She's from Thessaloniki,
Speaker 1: and so we also just talked about Greece, Greek culture,
Speaker 1: writing Greek mythology, as a Greek. It's important that we
Speaker 1: also have Greek voices in this realm. It's incredibly important.
Speaker 1: The more we telling the better, but the more retellings
Speaker 1: by Greek people even better, because it's their culture and
Speaker 1: while we've all been able to kind of like take
Speaker 1: it and use it like it's ours, it isn't. It's theirs,
Speaker 1: And so I'm just I'm utterly thrilled to have you
Speaker 1: on the show. And I really hope I'm not butchering
Speaker 1: your name, but my Greek is only coming along a
Speaker 1: tiny bit. We had so much fun, We have so
Speaker 1: much fun. We're keeping in touch. We're just gonna like
Speaker 1: chat and be pals now, which is truly a joy.
Speaker 1: Demeter is so interesting. This book is so fascinating. I
Speaker 1: fucking love an angry woman and that is what we
Speaker 1: have here. And also just like a conversation about an
Speaker 1: angry Demeter, because Demeter, of all people, deserves.
Speaker 4: To be angry.
Speaker 1: Conversations the feminism of female rage, Demeter's Winter Harvest with
Speaker 1: Iwana Papadoppolo. I'm so excited to talk about Demeter. I'm
Speaker 1: so excited to talk about your book. I just kind
Speaker 1: of want to hear every single thing. But mostly I'm
Speaker 1: excited you are now going to be the second person
Speaker 1: of like fully Greek descent who I've talked to you
Speaker 1: on the show about their novels about Greek mythology, and
Speaker 1: I love that that's happening more and more so. I mean, okay, clearly,
Speaker 1: I just want to talk about everything. But why why Demeter,
Speaker 1: what were you wanting.
Speaker 2: To do with your book? Tell me whatever you want
Speaker 2: to know and we'll go from there.
Speaker 3: All right, perfect. So the story start when I was
Speaker 3: a little girl, and I was first introduced to a
Speaker 3: Greek mythology, all the.
Speaker 5: Way back in the early two thousands in the Saloniki
Speaker 5: in northern Greece, where I got my first books about
Speaker 5: Greek mythology.
Speaker 3: Started like learning and really liking this part of my culture.
Speaker 3: And I loved the story of Dimitter there because I
Speaker 3: thought she was so bad ass. I thought she was
Speaker 3: so cool because she was the only one that was
Speaker 3: really strong and really independent from all the goddesses of
Speaker 3: the Catherine, and she was this person that had managed
Speaker 3: to force her wheel on Zeus and kind of one.
Speaker 3: And I always in my head and my personal canon
Speaker 3: of Greek mythology, she was like the cool goddess of
Speaker 3: the Earth, the third really important, Like in my head,
Speaker 3: it wasn't Haydes, it was hair As, like that third
Speaker 3: really powerful deity. And as I was growing up and
Speaker 3: learning English and seeing how Greek mythology was viewed in
Speaker 3: the Western world and in English speaking books, it was
Speaker 3: always such a huge sad point in my stories that
Speaker 3: Dimitor was mostly depicted as a grieving mother that lost
Speaker 3: that coolness and that strength and that idea of that
Speaker 3: independence that I loved as a little girl and I
Speaker 3: continue to love. So as I was reading more Greek mythology,
Speaker 3: and I started also having certain personal issues with the
Speaker 3: Greek mythology the tellings that were being created, because I
Speaker 3: felt that there were missing certain things about Greece, about
Speaker 3: Gece is a place rather than the characters. I thought
Speaker 3: that I'm gonna try to write my own and I thought,
Speaker 3: if there's gonna be one an Syne mythologist story that
Speaker 3: I will attempt to write, it can't be anything but Demeter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that so much. Demeanor.
Speaker 1: Demean is absolutely fascinating. And I do think that she
Speaker 1: is so often like set aside, like you're saying, as
Speaker 1: this grieving mother or just as this like any old
Speaker 1: part of the Olympians, Like she doesn't she doesn't stand
Speaker 1: like sort of above them in most of the you
Speaker 1: know the ways. That's certainly yet like you're saying, the
Speaker 1: English speaking world takes in Greek mythology, and I think,
Speaker 1: I mean that's so in large part because like for
Speaker 1: the last couple few you know, maybe a thousand or
Speaker 1: just one hundred, but all of it years. You know,
Speaker 1: these stories have been retold to us by men who
Speaker 1: just see her as that because you know, we have
Speaker 1: the homericim to Demeter, that's her main surviving source. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like the one thing that survives in great detail exactly,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, that's all they go with. But I'm
Speaker 1: with you. Yeah, like she's utterly fascinating. She's an Earth goddess.
Speaker 1: She is inherently, like without a doubt, one of the
Speaker 1: most powerful goddesses.
Speaker 3: And what I really found interesting, especially for my research,
Speaker 3: is how much people speculate when they study mythology is
Speaker 3: a science because that exists. You can study mythology outside
Speaker 3: of the specific place, not the thing that is probably
Speaker 3: reimagining and a remnant of an evil, older fertility deity,
Speaker 3: and that's why she has a lot of these archetypes
Speaker 3: that don't match with the rest of the gods. And
Speaker 3: the other thing that I found really interesting, and obviously
Speaker 3: it's kind of a different tradition, but I also thought
Speaker 3: it was really interesting as a connection is that I
Speaker 3: don't know, if you're aware of the tradition of mythology.
Speaker 1: Yes, question mark, No, so I am. But it's become
Speaker 1: kind of like a running joke on the show that
Speaker 1: I try to avoid talking about it too much.
Speaker 2: Okay, because it is I shouldn't so confusing.
Speaker 3: That's fine, I want to talk about it then.
Speaker 2: No, no, you can feel free.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on
Speaker 1: Demeter in the Orphic tradition, for sure.
Speaker 3: Because in the Orphic tradition, some of the references to
Speaker 3: hair are that Rhea becomes Demeter when the world is remade,
Speaker 3: because Zeus swallows the world and remakes it. And I
Speaker 3: felt that again was a really interesting connection to the
Speaker 3: idea of demean or something far older than perhaps in
Speaker 3: the rest of the world. So although I didn't do
Speaker 3: anything with the orphic tradition, we don't need to refer
Speaker 3: to it ever again in this podcast. I thought it
Speaker 3: was a really interesting side notes that even in that
Speaker 3: other so different tradition, this idea of oldness inside dimeter
Speaker 3: was there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not any kind of coincidence that there
Speaker 1: are all of these layers of like Mother Earth, fertility goddesses, right,
Speaker 1: Like there really aren't any other gods that have that
Speaker 1: same like sort of repetitive nature down the generations. You know,
Speaker 1: we have Gaya, and then we have Rahea, and then
Speaker 1: we have Demeter, and like that's so indicative of this
Speaker 1: like greater, more ancient power. Like so many of the gods,
Speaker 1: like you know, they're based in these older concepts very often,
Speaker 1: particularly I think the goddesses, like from that time when
Speaker 1: you know, we think that goddesses might have been more
Speaker 1: worship than the men, and then they get these remnants
Speaker 1: passed down and then the remnants become you know, what
Speaker 1: we know of as demean. But she would have started
Speaker 1: as something so much bigger.
Speaker 3: Yes, And definitely the literature that has remained for us
Speaker 3: is also a problem for Dimeter as well, because, as
Speaker 3: you said, the vast majority of works that she might
Speaker 3: have started have not been recorded. If theyre were, I
Speaker 3: don't even know if they're were. So I got for
Speaker 3: my own research, I got most of my sources actually
Speaker 3: from scholarly kind of works, from geographers like Pasanias, from
Speaker 3: people like pseudo Apollodorus. So there were like beats and
Speaker 3: bobs here and there that you collected and you got
Speaker 3: a little bit more of an idea, but none of
Speaker 3: them on their own are really enough of a material
Speaker 3: for you to kind of learn to love dimitter from
Speaker 3: the original material.
Speaker 1: That makes me think of how Hestia is often handled too,
Speaker 1: like in this way where she's almost like too important
Speaker 1: for literature to have survived, or rather that like like
Speaker 1: the way I see Hestia and I feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: you might agree it's kind of similar to Demeter, is that,
Speaker 1: like she was so important on a day to day level,
Speaker 1: Like the ancient Greek people were so invested in her
Speaker 1: in their like daily lives that it just kind of
Speaker 1: meant there was no need to put her into these
Speaker 1: you know, dramatic stories of you know, hurting mortals or
Speaker 1: doing weird things. Like it's almost like she was above
Speaker 1: that because she was so important to an actual human
Speaker 1: living their life.
Speaker 3: No, that's absolutely the case. I mean, even in modern Greek,
Speaker 3: the word estea is still part of our way of
Speaker 3: describing the home and of describing hospitality. Even so, Yeah,
Speaker 3: at least I love it feels that the more important
Speaker 3: you wear. Actually that's a really interesting concept and I've
Speaker 3: never considered that the more you're part of everyday life,
Speaker 3: the less you are a fictional thing exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1: I think it like it's both frustrating because we want
Speaker 1: to read more, but when you see it that way,
Speaker 1: it's really empowering and interesting and kind of beautiful, you know.
Speaker 3: And also now makes me think of Hestia is actually
Speaker 3: quite an important character in my book. I am thinking
Speaker 3: it quite different. It does play a role, but I
Speaker 3: kind of have tried to give her a role in
Speaker 3: between the meats because I don't actually have needs to
Speaker 3: use for her, and so I kind of tried to
Speaker 3: make her have a role in between those meats. But
Speaker 3: I'm now thinking, can I go rewrite my book and
Speaker 3: use that idea more? Can we just delay there? Because
Speaker 3: that's so interesting? Now I'm now thinking, do I need
Speaker 3: to write a Hestian novel? Now?
Speaker 4: Please?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, could you imagine? I would love that
Speaker 2: so much? Please write a Hastian novel.
Speaker 3: I don't know what I would write, but.
Speaker 1: I know in a least it's one of those things.
Speaker 1: It's like, I think that's what makes certain characters, Demeter
Speaker 1: and Hestia among them, like so interesting as as characters
Speaker 1: for retellings, because there is so little to work off
Speaker 1: of that. It is both frustrating because you don't have
Speaker 1: as much to go on as and as much to
Speaker 1: be inspired by. But it also means that these characters
Speaker 1: are like completely open ended. You can make them whatever
Speaker 1: you want them to be, whatever you like believe them
Speaker 1: to be.
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, I wrote Winter Harvest trying to be
Speaker 3: really close to the myths, like I tried to not
Speaker 3: allow myself too much space beyond them. I tried to
Speaker 3: focus on being creative in the space of connecting the
Speaker 3: myths rather than in the myths themselves, because I felt
Speaker 3: that because Dimitter doesn't really have any other representation, let's
Speaker 3: start by being as true as possible and then hopefully
Speaker 3: that will inspire someone after me to write a more
Speaker 3: free interpretation of her myths. But I tried to piece
Speaker 3: together these myths, but on the few times, and actually
Speaker 3: there were only really two works of literature that I had.
Speaker 3: I tried for those two to be really close. So
Speaker 3: I have the Homeric him to Demeter, which is the
Speaker 3: more popular one, but there is also a Hymn to
Speaker 3: Demeter by Kalimahu's And I also was quite streact myself,
Speaker 3: although it's not as detailed as the Homeric quin. So
Speaker 3: for these two parts of the story, I tried to
Speaker 3: be quite streact with myself to not really deviate too much.
Speaker 3: But then because so many of the other myths that
Speaker 3: I used, I only really had a small description of
Speaker 3: them from geographers or from scholars, I then was really
Speaker 3: free to do whatever I wanted. So I tried on
Speaker 3: the small parts that they actually was something that lasted
Speaker 3: through the centuries and I could use as a basic
Speaker 3: material to stay true to that.
Speaker 1: I feel that same way whenever I'm talking about the myth.
Speaker 1: So I love that so much, like I particularly on
Speaker 1: the show, like I don't deviate at all, Like if
Speaker 1: we don't know that, I'm just gonna say that, And
Speaker 1: I love that, like I want to be talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, exactly how the ancient Greek saw them, like
Speaker 1: as far as we can tell now. Often ask me like, oh,
Speaker 1: what do you think this character would think about that?
Speaker 1: And I like never have an answer because I don't
Speaker 1: like to think about it in that way, Like I
Speaker 1: want to think about it more of like like culturally,
Speaker 1: like what they believed, versus seeing these these people as
Speaker 1: like kind of you know, like these fictional characters that
Speaker 1: like I can interpret what they would have thought. Like, No,
Speaker 1: I want to work off like just the ancient sources,
Speaker 1: even if even if they give us nothing like Hestias
Speaker 1: or whatever, you know, where we have like literally nothing
Speaker 1: about her.
Speaker 3: I think that there is value in both. I just
Speaker 3: felt that for that book it wasn't the place to deviate.
Speaker 3: And in other kind of works I've done, I would
Speaker 3: possibly deviate because there would be more freedom, or there
Speaker 3: would be more material, so there's more variation, so there's
Speaker 3: more to work with. But I'm already kind of afraid
Speaker 3: that if all you know of demitor A is the
Speaker 3: grieving mother, then you read my dimitter, You're going to
Speaker 3: have a bit of a shock. And I want to
Speaker 3: be able to defend myself by being very true to
Speaker 3: the sources. Because I did not write the book so
Speaker 3: much time to think of the historical side, So I've
Speaker 3: not tried to mimic a specific period of Ancwing Greece.
Speaker 3: I've just more created a wider world of how I
Speaker 3: was taught answering Greece, but mixed in with issues of
Speaker 3: contemporary Greece. But still, like said, in a suit of
Speaker 3: historical element of the past. But what was really interesting
Speaker 3: in this book is that a lot of the issues
Speaker 3: that I discussed and a lot of the perspectives that
Speaker 3: I used to tell dimeter story I think could have
Speaker 3: transferred to early twentieth century, even part of my family
Speaker 3: and other Greek family dynamics of the late twentieth century,
Speaker 3: early twenty first century of Greece, and especially the remnants
Speaker 3: of the older generation, and I would find that a
Speaker 3: lot of these stories can still hold and can be
Speaker 3: it told in a very contemporary Greek setting.
Speaker 2: So hmmm. I love that I kind of didn't.
Speaker 3: Try to say that this is me telling a historical story.
Speaker 3: I'm telling you a mythological story, and within that I've
Speaker 3: created an idea of the past and a world where
Speaker 3: it's quite timeless and it's quite shapeless, but so very
Speaker 3: Greek that the place is kind of the most important thing,
Speaker 3: not so much the time, if that makes sense. And
Speaker 3: I think that's why some people obviously, yeah, I haven't
Speaker 3: picked up the anachronisms, but I kind of think, but
Speaker 3: if you are a deity, how much time matters? And
Speaker 3: these myths are timeless And because they're timeless, they're anachronistic.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean even just like the sources that
Speaker 1: we have. You know, I think something that people don't
Speaker 1: think of it so much if they don't, you know,
Speaker 1: live in this world, is the amount of time that
Speaker 1: even the sources that we have spanned, right, Like, you
Speaker 1: can't really talk anachronisms when when the start to finish
Speaker 1: years of just the ancient sources are like at least
Speaker 1: a thousand years worth of time. You know, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: what what is an anachronism when the stories of these
Speaker 1: gods and characters have spanned a full thousand years?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and people also forget that this wasn't a really
Speaker 3: central religion in the way that we now think of religions.
Speaker 3: So different colds, different variations all kind of merge together.
Speaker 3: And that's why you do have, for so many characters,
Speaker 3: so many different variations of mix. Even if you don't
Speaker 3: go to something as far as the orphics, you still
Speaker 3: have different birth genesis, different things, different places, And you
Speaker 3: just kind of need to love that because if you
Speaker 3: can't love this confusion, then all you're really trying to
Speaker 3: do is what makes me the most angry, which is
Speaker 3: that you're trying to pick your favorite and force it
Speaker 3: upon others. It's okay to pick it, but you can't
Speaker 3: ignore the fact that someone else can pick something else.
Speaker 3: And if I can go on a slight tangent as
Speaker 3: a Greek person, I think that this probably one of
Speaker 3: my greatest annoyances with a lot of the retailings which
Speaker 3: I read and I love and I give my money
Speaker 3: to like. I don't want anyone to go and say
Speaker 3: I don't like Madeline Miller or anyone like that. I've
Speaker 3: enjoyed those books, and I'm really glad they've been written.
Speaker 3: I'm really glad I read them. But at the same time,
Speaker 3: they've created an idea of Greece that it's not quite Greece.
Speaker 3: I think what they've done, and it always lightly this
Speaker 3: disjoins me from the stories because I am so close
Speaker 3: to them and I know them so well. Is that
Speaker 3: people forget that these places are real, Like when you
Speaker 3: grow up, you learn these stories as part of the
Speaker 3: cosmos and the genesis of your own home town or
Speaker 3: your home country. They are not this far away thing
Speaker 3: that it might be for someone living in Canada who
Speaker 3: doesn't think of themselves as part of this place. So
Speaker 3: I always feel that they miss that, And because they
Speaker 3: miss that, they miss and ignore elements of Greek mythology
Speaker 3: and Greek history even that don't really fit the West.
Speaker 3: And I think that's partly something that created very long
Speaker 3: time ago. And obviously contemporary Greece is very influenced by
Speaker 3: an Eastern culture because it has changed and he has
Speaker 3: evolved and he has continued. But even the answering Greek
Speaker 3: myths are having elements that you can see are there
Speaker 3: in contemporary Greek society as pathogenesis of problems, and you
Speaker 3: just need to to obviously either accept them and seek answering.
Speaker 3: Greek mythology is not this lovely fictional world, or you
Speaker 3: need to accept that there's another side to it or
Speaker 3: another version of it, because all really mythologies as fun
Speaker 3: fiction upon fan fiction, upon fan fiction, world by world,
Speaker 3: culture by culture, eighth by age. Somebody has given their
Speaker 3: slight take on what these set of characters do, and
Speaker 3: it's great. I love it. I love the feeling of
Speaker 3: comfort being able to read these characters again and again
Speaker 3: and again. But I do feel that people forget that
Speaker 3: they are real places and they have real The names
Speaker 3: are there and people use those names and feel those names,
Speaker 3: And there's sides of Greek mythology that don't fit the West,
Speaker 3: and that's okay. You don't need to like them, but
Speaker 3: you can't ignore their presence there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I I think that's so important. I want
Speaker 1: to I want to hear and say so many things
Speaker 1: based on on everything you just said. Like obviously, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm very much coming from this Canadian standpoint, uh, but
Speaker 1: I do fortunately live in the sources in a way
Speaker 1: that that you know. Obviously, this is not to say
Speaker 1: that I understand the cultural aspects. But what you were
Speaker 1: saying earlier about you know, what was the phrase you used.
Speaker 1: It really like spoke to me just like loving the confusion.
Speaker 1: I guess you know of all the different variations and
Speaker 1: sources and and all the contradictions, And that is something
Speaker 1: that is my absolute favorite part of this job, is
Speaker 1: loving the contradictions. I want to bask in the eight
Speaker 1: different versions of somebody's story and I want to like
Speaker 1: try to just piece apart why each one is the
Speaker 1: way it is, because I think that that is the
Speaker 1: most interesting part of mythology. So I'm just with you
Speaker 1: completely from that cultural perspective. I would love to know,
Speaker 1: you know, if you have examples that come to your
Speaker 1: mind of of the ways that you know your experience
Speaker 1: as a Greek person growing up in Thessalniki. You know
Speaker 1: how this how you feel that that the culture really
Speaker 1: you know, either either differs from the retellings if you
Speaker 1: want to be that specific, or if just like you
Speaker 1: want to talk about it from that cultural perspective, and
Speaker 1: you know kind of how you live in the sources
Speaker 1: in that really unique way.
Speaker 3: So obviously a lot of these myths and these the
Speaker 3: Catherine stories are more from southern Greece, so in northern Greece,
Speaker 3: so was slightly different. But I think I'm trying to
Speaker 3: find something specific to say because I don't want to
Speaker 3: go into something really generic. Is that we use ancient
Speaker 3: Greek concepts, names, stories in our everyday speet is like
Speaker 3: nearly jokes as expressions. And one of the things that
Speaker 3: it always comes to mind, and I had never thought
Speaker 3: of it as much until this person pointed it out
Speaker 3: to me, is that every language is an expression of thought,
Speaker 3: a unique expression of thought, and that's why you can
Speaker 3: never have fully synonyms between two different languages. And Greek
Speaker 3: is a really rich language, and all these gods and
Speaker 3: these words from the ancient past are expressions of thought
Speaker 3: that have stayed in Greece, so in our everyday speech
Speaker 3: and in our everyday life. They are there because you
Speaker 3: would just call Ammamuthian an attempt to do something as
Speaker 3: an iraklia attempt because heracles, that's how he would have thought,
Speaker 3: or you would have expressions of how this person is
Speaker 3: like Zeus because of their bad behavior, especially now that
Speaker 3: we're moving into a more gender equality attempt and trying
Speaker 3: to look at sexual assault in a different way. And
Speaker 3: people also forget that these plays of answering Greek are
Speaker 3: performed on a yearly basis in Greece, and a lot
Speaker 3: of times, a lot of these plays are retellings themselves.
Speaker 3: I have not experienced retailings only through these very small forms.
Speaker 3: I have had the privilege, and I'm really lucky that
Speaker 3: I have been able to do that, that I can
Speaker 3: see the same play performed by different actors nearly every year,
Speaker 3: and very times performed in different settings, even if the
Speaker 3: story remains the same. And at the same time time,
Speaker 3: when I walk down the street, even in a place
Speaker 3: like the Saloniki, I am constantly having little clues here
Speaker 3: and there of this past of the Gorgon of Thermaikos
Speaker 3: and of how we were taught and discussed the ecological
Speaker 3: problems of the port of the Saloniki with the gorgon
Speaker 3: the stories of like even Greek TV where the gorgan
Speaker 3: of the Saloniki actual Thesaloniki, the princess like was a
Speaker 3: historical person who was there and was complaining about the
Speaker 3: pollution of ag and c. So it is kind of joky.
Speaker 3: It's not always serious, but it's part of everyday life,
Speaker 3: even for people that don't necessarily know the details. And
Speaker 3: I think that's more the difference that you might not
Speaker 3: know that this is why you call it or this
Speaker 3: is why you say it, but that's where it comes from.
Speaker 3: And all that really has happened to someone like me
Speaker 3: is that maybe I'm just a bit more aware of it.
Speaker 3: And again, I want to read ring more than anything.
Speaker 3: Please write the stories, Please read the myths. Tell me
Speaker 3: your most extraordinary takes on Greek mythology. Just don't tell
Speaker 3: me this is it. That's more my thing.
Speaker 1: Yes, oh no, that's like that's you've basically just like
Speaker 1: summarized my podcast with that phrase, or like at least
Speaker 1: how it's been for the past couple of years, Like
Speaker 1: like there's no finite anything. There is no there is
Speaker 1: no canon, There is no right or wrong answer to
Speaker 1: a question about Greek mythology, you know, I mean, except
Speaker 1: when there is, but they're rare, you know, I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: I absolutely love that. And and like so I've you know,
Speaker 1: been trying to learn Greek and from just like say
Speaker 1: the I want to say it's more than a handful
Speaker 1: of words, because I definitely you know, I know, I
Speaker 1: know like decent number of words. I just can't form
Speaker 1: a lot of sentences yet. But the biggest thrill for
Speaker 1: me in learning Greek, just as this enormous nerd for
Speaker 1: Greek mythology who has read an absurd amount, is learning
Speaker 1: a word and then immediately understanding it's mythological context and
Speaker 1: then like getting this real visceral thrill of being like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I understand you know how this word
Speaker 1: came to be in modern Greek.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Like one of my favorite examples is and I tell
Speaker 1: when I tell my friends this, and like they're not
Speaker 1: usually into Greek mythology, and they just kind of like
Speaker 1: like okay, live like sure, but I I like, every time,
Speaker 1: you know, I've been over there with somebody I've been
Speaker 1: like okay, so you know, I explain like, you know,
Speaker 1: the the niceties Kalimea, Kalispera, kale Nikta, like just you know,
Speaker 1: saying good good morning, good day, good evening to people,
Speaker 1: and you go gay like okay, So Kali Spera, you know,
Speaker 1: it has this connection to hesperites because they are, you know,
Speaker 1: the goddesses of like the evening and the west and
Speaker 1: and then of course you know Kali Nikta, Oh we've
Speaker 1: got that. That's nixt She's the goddess of night like
Speaker 1: and all these different kind of connections. And so just
Speaker 1: from that perspective, learning those connections via the language has
Speaker 1: been such a just like a nerdy thrill for this
Speaker 1: like do weeby little Canadian? But I can completely see
Speaker 1: what what you mean just in that tiny way that
Speaker 1: I that I understand, and I I love hearing more
Speaker 1: about you know how how it actually like impacts you,
Speaker 1: you know, growing up there. I'm trying not to just
Speaker 1: like be like, oh my god, I just love Greek
Speaker 1: culture so much, but I like, I do, I really do.
Speaker 1: So Canada has like no culture. We're just like a
Speaker 1: colonial mess. So I like latched on. I'm like something
Speaker 1: that culture, oh it is, it's just not a great one,
Speaker 1: you know, not that Greek villages is all roses and daisies.
Speaker 3: But I think like in every kind of culture and
Speaker 3: every kind of history, you need to celebrate the joys
Speaker 3: and try to fix the tears.
Speaker 2: I like that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm utterly fascinated hearing about I mean, all
Speaker 1: of this in this way. I'm like, just give me
Speaker 1: more of literally everything. But you know, I also want
Speaker 1: to make sure that we're talking enough about like your book.
Speaker 1: I want people to want to read it, not least
Speaker 1: because like, I'm just so fucking thrilled that Demeter gets
Speaker 1: a book, like, you know, to give my listeners like
Speaker 1: a slight backstory to how you know, you and I
Speaker 1: are talking. But I saw somebody tweet about your book,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, like Demeter gets
Speaker 1: her own story. Like I lost my mind. I was
Speaker 1: just so excited that not only that this book you know, exists,
Speaker 1: but I wanted to hear all of your thoughts about her. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, you've talked about it a little bit, but
Speaker 1: do you want to talk more about like what you
Speaker 1: wanted to do with Demeter, Like on a on a
Speaker 1: story level, like what you wanted to to sort of
Speaker 1: emphasize about her, because she is this goddess who is
Speaker 1: sort of like deeply underrepresent entered in certainly like you're saying,
Speaker 1: like English speaking Western, you know, retellings and all of that.
Speaker 3: Oh yes, I mean, thank you for telling letting me
Speaker 3: I can tell you what I wanted to say, what
Speaker 3: I was too afraid to say. I think there were
Speaker 3: myths about that. I definitely am like putting it as
Speaker 3: an entrance, as an entry myself that I want to
Speaker 3: talk about the myth I was too scared to add.
Speaker 3: But a kind of beginning on the story is that,
Speaker 3: first of all, I'd like to say to everyone listening
Speaker 3: that please don't read, Please read the book, please buy
Speaker 3: the book, but please don't expect the book to be
Speaker 3: the story of Demitor being this wonderful representation of a
Speaker 3: female heroine. My Demeter is not a hero, and I
Speaker 3: did not write her as a hero. I actually specifically
Speaker 3: followed as much as the myths would allow a corruption
Speaker 3: arc and created the story of how she became a villain.
Speaker 3: So you are not going to find in My Demeter
Speaker 3: a person that changes the world for the better.
Speaker 6: This as a character that has within her understanding of
Speaker 6: the world feelings about injustice, seeing injustice in other situations,
Speaker 6: but is still.
Speaker 3: So ingrained in this power dynamic of patriarchy that she
Speaker 3: is expressing in herself. She only reacts and actually opposes
Speaker 3: it when these power dynamics directly influence her. She's not
Speaker 3: going to be your champion of women or your champion
Speaker 3: of the downtrodden. She cares about herself and about her life,
Speaker 3: and actually the more she gets to fight for herself,
Speaker 3: the more she accepts that sees a person of power
Speaker 3: and should be treated the same as the men, rather
Speaker 3: than the men are not kind, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3: Like she only kind of sees it as that there's
Speaker 3: this higher arch of the world and I'm going to
Speaker 3: be on top. How much on top can I be?
Speaker 3: And she's maybe a little bit more sympathetic than other
Speaker 3: characters because she's also been a victim, so she's also
Speaker 3: kind of experienced how unfair it is, and she would
Speaker 3: maybe f she lived in the world right as she
Speaker 3: wanted not to be like that as much. And that's
Speaker 3: where Hestia comes a lot into play. How she would
Speaker 3: have really liked the dot Catherine to be led by
Speaker 3: Hestia as they wear inside the stomach. But then she
Speaker 3: sees this brother who has the different upbringing from them
Speaker 3: as this corrupting influence that took away whatever family they
Speaker 3: had created inside the stomach and they became just forces
Speaker 3: the thought instead of joined together. So the book really
Speaker 3: discusses issues of family, and it isn't if you condense
Speaker 3: it very much. It's a family drama. It is, and
Speaker 3: its core how people fight for who is going to
Speaker 3: be the leader of the family now the father is
Speaker 3: dead and two people fighting for the custody of a child.
Speaker 3: At its core as that, but obviously it is packaged
Speaker 3: with a lot more things, so it doesn't only read
Speaker 3: as that. But definitely parenthood and family dynamics are really important.
Speaker 3: Definitely female role in patriarchy is also really important because
Speaker 3: patriarchy wouldn't exist without feminine people. Feminine people women of
Speaker 3: any size and form that they are supporting the patriarchy
Speaker 3: because they don't want to lose the little bit of
Speaker 3: power they have through it. So you suddenly see a
Speaker 3: deity that can fight for the weaker, understands the applied
Speaker 3: and doesn't care.
Speaker 1: I love this, So you're making me so happy.
Speaker 3: And at the same time you have this mother and
Speaker 3: that's what like was why when I found that Meath,
Speaker 3: I was like, yes, somebody needs to write this. I'm
Speaker 3: gonna do it because nobody else seems interested to do it.
Speaker 3: That as willing to end the world for her child,
Speaker 3: that is willing to go to this levels of distraction
Speaker 3: and at the same time abundance to other children.
Speaker 2: Hmmm.
Speaker 1: I just observed trying not to just be like so
Speaker 1: happy about this description.
Speaker 3: No, so it's just basically a Demeter that is full
Speaker 3: of contradictions that but it's also very much I think
Speaker 3: if you try to read it trying to say, how
Speaker 3: is she gonna be the hero that's gonna save us,
Speaker 3: You're not gonna find it. Could she have been maybe
Speaker 3: if she had a different influence as she became an adult,
Speaker 3: But at this point and this trajectory of mythology, see
Speaker 3: is a goddess that and I like to say that
Speaker 3: sees Demeter the Sito, the one who feeds and yet
Speaker 3: to starve the world.
Speaker 1: I just okay, I love all of this. It it
Speaker 1: just feels so Demeter, absolutely like the Demeter that I
Speaker 1: think of. But also I think that the way you're
Speaker 1: talking about this is such a great it's just such
Speaker 1: a great example of I mean, not an example, but
Speaker 1: like I mean, you know, all of these retellings that
Speaker 1: have been coming out, and you know, I agree with you,
Speaker 1: like the more the merrier, Like I'm so glad there
Speaker 1: are so many. I'm so glad that most of them
Speaker 1: feature women. I think that that's so important. And I
Speaker 1: love you know, all the different ways and we can
Speaker 1: see them because they are you know, there are countless
Speaker 1: ways that you can you know, view the Greek mythology broadly.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, there is also this habit
Speaker 1: that publishers have. I won't blame the authors, it's typically
Speaker 1: publishers this habit to call everything that features a woman feminist,
Speaker 1: and I think that that is detrimental to the idea
Speaker 1: of feminism, this idea of equality. Like feminism is not
Speaker 1: you know, some ideal, perfect world where nothing is wrong.
Speaker 1: Feminism is simply the notion that women can be equal
Speaker 1: and should be equal to men. And so to me,
Speaker 1: it sounds like like your book is almost that in
Speaker 1: its most sort of like purest form, where you know,
Speaker 1: Demeter is not a heroine, like you're saying, but she
Speaker 1: is equal to the men, and and like, it's a
Speaker 1: great example of how, you know, a woman trying to
Speaker 1: be as equal to the men in that kind of
Speaker 1: context can be like just as corrupting. And I think
Speaker 1: that's so fascinating to look at it that way, and
Speaker 1: it just feels it feels honest in a way that
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times, you know, these are
Speaker 1: written to be happy stories, and that's fine, but personally,
Speaker 1: when I read Greek mythology, I see very few happy stories.
Speaker 1: And I like the idea that there is this darkness
Speaker 1: and that there is like, you know, that Zeus is
Speaker 1: such a corrupt and broken leader that if someone is
Speaker 1: trying to rival him, they almost have to become just
Speaker 1: as corrupt and broken as he is. And that, you know,
Speaker 1: that's equality in its own, very specific way.
Speaker 3: And it's a very Greek I want to say. I
Speaker 3: think element that we always find something negative in everything.
Speaker 3: We're quite persumous, or we are too optimistic, we're two extremes.
Speaker 3: But I think that that's exactly it. I consider this
Speaker 3: a feminist book, but not in the sense that it's feminist,
Speaker 3: because it allows this female cruelty, and I think there
Speaker 3: needs the space for female wrath, female rage, female cruelty,
Speaker 3: and I think because it does allow a space for
Speaker 3: that to be explored, it doesn't mean it's going to
Speaker 3: be liked. Like there's loads of great stories in literature
Speaker 3: that you're not meant to like the character, but you
Speaker 3: still want to hear their story. So that's what I
Speaker 3: wanted to do. And as I said, there are there
Speaker 3: is one specific thing that I did not dare to
Speaker 3: include it because I thought that I can't. First of all,
Speaker 3: I don't think I can do it justice, but secondly
Speaker 3: I don't know if an audience could take it. Obviously
Speaker 3: within the story, Demeter is also raped. That has happened.
Speaker 3: There is a myth in Pasanias where this is how
Speaker 3: she has her second child and third child, the twins
Speaker 3: Despina whose name we don't know, like the mestress and
Speaker 3: ari On the horse, but one Persephon mean is like
Speaker 3: settled in that coming back every year that side of
Speaker 3: the story is done. There's another myth which is about Yacion,
Speaker 3: who is I think, if I remember correctly, a prince,
Speaker 3: and how in Corinth Demitt is so intrigued by his
Speaker 3: outside appearance the same chance him to go and sleep
Speaker 3: with her, and I thought, well, this is basically a
Speaker 3: god is raping a man. And I thought, but I
Speaker 3: don't know if I don't think that's why I didn't
Speaker 3: do it. And I didn't I didn't think I could
Speaker 3: do it justice. First of all, I don't think that
Speaker 3: I would be able to convince an audience that has
Speaker 3: already seen Dimore do really horrible things to also see
Speaker 3: her at the very end rape. And I thought, I'm
Speaker 3: not gonna include it. But if I ever ever dared
Speaker 3: to write a sequel to that book, which no plans to,
Speaker 3: that would be the story I would write how she
Speaker 3: becomes this person that has this long term relationship from
Speaker 3: all terms and accounts with this person, but has stolen
Speaker 3: their life in a way that I think when male
Speaker 3: gods rape women, they tend to be married, They tend
Speaker 3: to have a life beyond it. But if you are
Speaker 3: the lover of a male prince, would you use a
Speaker 3: goddess allow them to also be married? It seems that
Speaker 3: in that idea of gender hierarchy, which is totally unfair,
Speaker 3: Like don't think that I agree with it, but it's
Speaker 3: okay for you as the god to take someone's wife
Speaker 3: but also let them have her. But as a female goddess,
Speaker 3: it seems that you couldn't possibly have a man that
Speaker 3: is also someone else's man. Makes sense, And then I
Speaker 3: thought that does really takes away even more from your life.
Speaker 3: And it's obviously inequality even between the gods, because there
Speaker 3: is one specific goddess that said that. I can't remember
Speaker 3: now the source or anything, but I think it's the
Speaker 3: Goddess of the Dawn who had a lover. Head.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she does that too.
Speaker 3: And she had this human lover. And one of the
Speaker 3: myths I thinks says male gods are really scared of
Speaker 3: female goddess is having human lovers.
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, I want to find that source now.
Speaker 3: I'm going to try to find it. I can't remember it.
Speaker 3: I'm really sorry. It just came to me right now,
Speaker 3: and about how because they're so scared when a female
Speaker 3: deity has a human male lover, it is a much
Speaker 3: bigger element of danger than when a male god has
Speaker 3: a human lover that is female or male. It doesn't
Speaker 3: matter because in that sense of gender equality and gender
Speaker 3: power dynamics, there comes the god who is higher, but
Speaker 3: then the man who should be higher than women. That
Speaker 3: confusion between which side which element is more important to
Speaker 3: create the proper family dynamic and hierarchy of relationship is
Speaker 3: so confusing that they just can't have it. A woman
Speaker 3: should only be met and should only be sleeping with
Speaker 3: a man that is of equal or higher standard. Going
Speaker 3: to someone below her and her having that power because
Speaker 3: of her class or her power in the case of
Speaker 3: gods is so disruptive just as a concept, And obviously
Speaker 3: that's the case even if you look at history at
Speaker 3: a later point, because a man could marry a poorer
Speaker 3: woman and elevator a woman can't. And I actually, you
Speaker 3: know me anything is that I'm also an act your story,
Speaker 3: and I actually have a specific artist's life where that's
Speaker 3: exactly what happened. Yeah, so this is say, what happens
Speaker 3: in my head, This is how I live.
Speaker 1: No, I find that utterly fascinating, and it's really like
Speaker 1: it's opened up a lot of thoughts from in my
Speaker 1: head about the way that this does work. Because I
Speaker 1: think you're so right, but I also think there's like
Speaker 1: another level happening, which is that like so like you're saying,
Speaker 1: you know, women can be the lovers.
Speaker 2: Of gods and their husbands.
Speaker 1: There's no issue there, you know, like it's never you know,
Speaker 1: it's never going to be a problem. But I also
Speaker 1: think that this all it really speaks to the few
Speaker 1: instances we have of when gods, male gods try or
Speaker 1: succeed in having male human lovers, because even those cases, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's just like it further emphasizes
Speaker 1: the gender because we have a number of instances of that.
Speaker 1: Almost all of them result in the human, the mortal,
Speaker 1: dying during the attempt at becoming a lover of a
Speaker 1: god or you know, the one example I can think
Speaker 1: of where you know, the mortal doesn't die is Ganymede
Speaker 1: with Zeus, and his life is is is still irreparably changed.
Speaker 1: He doesn't get to return home or behave like a
Speaker 1: mortal or Mary. He has to live as Zeus's cup
Speaker 1: bear on Olympus, and so like, even even in those
Speaker 1: cases where a male human mortal is involved, they there
Speaker 1: still has this dynamic, like you're saying, where where like
Speaker 1: it is still totally different from the way women are treated.
Speaker 1: And I think that like it's it's obviously tragic in
Speaker 1: the case of the men you know, dying is is
Speaker 1: equally shit, But it does say so much about the
Speaker 1: gender dynamics because the women are just this like sort
Speaker 1: of sort of toy to be used by the gods
Speaker 1: and then like, but the husbands still get to keep
Speaker 1: them because they're equally like their husband's toy in this world,
Speaker 1: whereas when the gods do you know, want to take
Speaker 1: a male lover, like that can't even happen. They can't
Speaker 1: become a toy because they're a man, so something else
Speaker 1: has to happen, and that.
Speaker 2: Usually is death.
Speaker 1: But it's still like a very interesting you know, look
Speaker 1: at the way that these gender dynamics do work. And
Speaker 1: you're right about the few women who take mortal the
Speaker 1: few goddesses, I should say, who take mortal lovers, like
Speaker 1: like Demeter and Easion and Eos the Dawn and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna forget who it was Typhonus. I think those cases
Speaker 1: are also tragic, but also like they're typically assault, but
Speaker 1: they they also result in I don't know the story
Speaker 1: of the Azeon actually, like in terms of the end result,
Speaker 1: but like for Eos, you know, she she abducts Typhonis
Speaker 1: and and takes him as a lover, but then she
Speaker 1: like I think it's this one. There's a few different
Speaker 1: stories that kind of resemble it, but I think of
Speaker 1: this as the one where she like asks for him
Speaker 1: to be immortal so that she could live with him forever,
Speaker 1: but she like forgets or zoos tricks her or whatever,
Speaker 1: but she he doesn't get agelessness, so he just like
Speaker 1: lives to be old forever and just like sort of
Speaker 1: falling apart in age, but like doesn't die. And so
Speaker 1: it also like, you know, the women can't still can't
Speaker 1: even have what they want, you know, even obviously it's
Speaker 1: non consensual, and that's it's horrific, but it still has
Speaker 1: this dynamic of like a goddess can't can't get you know,
Speaker 1: even immortal lover in the way that a god can.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think, And it's incredibly interesting as well
Speaker 3: as to the fact that this happens, and it's tragic
Speaker 3: as well. And I think the reason why going back
Speaker 3: to Demitter is that she is also quite a unique example.
Speaker 3: Think of an unweeded goddess that never weds, never has
Speaker 3: in any kind of meat I've read e merriage is
Speaker 3: an unwed mother. She is a mother of many fathers,
Speaker 3: which is very much a male thing. I think she
Speaker 3: is a very masculine maybe no masculine on the right word.
Speaker 3: There is definitely a male element in her character that
Speaker 3: I don't think any other goddess has, because all the
Speaker 3: other the goddesses that don't have husbands that I can
Speaker 3: think of are usually in the DoD caafine at least.
Speaker 3: Maybe the Titans are a little bit different. But in
Speaker 3: the do the cafuine you have all of them are virgins.
Speaker 3: So their way to be unwired is to not have
Speaker 3: that pleasure in life is like the censorship if human
Speaker 3: female pleasure, but demitter is like I'll have that, I'll
Speaker 3: have this and you can do anything about it. And
Speaker 3: it does again point to that oldness, because I think
Speaker 3: there is some proverbial myths or sources that say that
Speaker 3: both hate doesn't Poseidon wanted to marry her, like yeah,
Speaker 3: and then one of them, in one myth rapes her,
Speaker 3: the other takes her daughter. There's a lot to unpick there,
Speaker 3: but I found that incredibly interesting because even in contemporary
Speaker 3: standards in Greece, for example, I would say that an
Speaker 3: unwed mother would still receive some comments from certain people.
Speaker 3: It would not be necessarily look down on, but it
Speaker 3: would be something that would be discussed, especially in more
Speaker 3: rural places, especially in smaller communities, or by older relatives.
Speaker 3: And definitely if you went back to even when my
Speaker 3: mom gave birth to me, it was just thirty years ago,
Speaker 3: I think it would not be easy to be an
Speaker 3: unwed mother the system and the community in the society.
Speaker 3: And yet you see that desk goddess that, because of
Speaker 3: all these situations, has a more i would say, a
Speaker 3: different kind of independence than other goddesses, is still not
Speaker 3: top dog, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it makes me think of what I love
Speaker 1: about Aphrodite, who you know, is very much married, but
Speaker 1: she still lives in that very similar role because while
Speaker 1: she's married to Hephaistus, she does not have children by him.
Speaker 1: She has children by other men and so and I've
Speaker 1: always loved the strength that comes with her character in that,
Speaker 1: Like you know, even when Zeus tried to make her
Speaker 1: less powerful by having her marry Hephaistus, she just still
Speaker 1: was like, nah, like I am. You know, I am
Speaker 1: a very powerful goddess. I'm going to continue to do
Speaker 1: what I want, and what I want is Aris, you know,
Speaker 1: among others. And I love that about her, but it
Speaker 1: you know, what you're saying about the the ancientness of
Speaker 1: Demeter also applies to Aphrodite, and so I think that
Speaker 1: that connection is really interesting because yeah, like Aphrodite is
Speaker 1: of course based in like these Eastern goddesses of like
Speaker 1: similar values, and so it remains the same where these
Speaker 1: two goddesses, you know, have this kind of under the
Speaker 1: surface power that the gods, and you know, the patriarchal
Speaker 1: nature of the stories as they exist now has tried
Speaker 1: to like you know, break them down, turn them into
Speaker 1: something less powerful than they actually are. But you can
Speaker 1: kind of piece out these strands that still exist that show,
Speaker 1: you know, the more ancient power that that still kind
Speaker 1: of exists within them despite all.
Speaker 2: The attempts at at sort of taking them down.
Speaker 3: Oh definitely. And obviously, like with Demeter, Aphrodite's power is
Speaker 3: not so much when she does it as when she
Speaker 3: doesn't do it. Like with a law of these gods,
Speaker 3: their powers are that I will rise a wave, I
Speaker 3: will throw a thunderbolt. But with these goddesses, their power
Speaker 3: is when they stop, when they give up. That's the
Speaker 3: danger of those and it's obviously something I slightly touched
Speaker 3: upon I didn't really explore in the book, but that
Speaker 3: what they really wanted. What they wanted, I don't know
Speaker 3: what they wanted in my book. They wanted was to
Speaker 3: give these more abstract powers to the female goddesses and
Speaker 3: then create nearly a bustardization of that element, like the
Speaker 3: woman that the goddess of matrimony is a cheated woman.
Speaker 3: As the protector of women, heir panishes women more than
Speaker 3: anyone else and is so jealous and it's so unfair
Speaker 3: to them. And there you see that there's powerlessness and
Speaker 3: the fact that FS is gone, actually nothing might happen.
Speaker 3: But with Hestia, with with Aphrodity, with Demit, their power
Speaker 3: comes actually in the threat of their absence. And obviously
Speaker 3: I don't I can't think of a myth where Aphrodity
Speaker 3: actually exercises that power. But that's what Demeter does. Demeter
Speaker 3: refuses her power to the world, and it's catastrophic, and
Speaker 3: it obviously shows that as an allegory of feminine role
Speaker 3: within society and within the world, that sometimes they might
Speaker 3: be doing. Women in the world generally might be doing
Speaker 3: things that we take for granted, but actually without them,
Speaker 3: there's a really important lack and that's not actually only
Speaker 3: for women. It's like for a lot of jobs that
Speaker 3: people and a lot of roles that people play within society.
Speaker 3: We don't think about them, we don't consider them as
Speaker 3: something like worth noting. But the moment they're gone, there's
Speaker 3: a huge societal collapse. And and Salonika. That actually happened
Speaker 3: I always like to refer to it is when the
Speaker 3: bean collectors went on strike for six months.
Speaker 2: Wow, six months.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was that long. I was a
Speaker 3: child when it happened, but I remember as a memory
Speaker 3: the impact of that, And that's why I always think
Speaker 3: these are really vital supportive roles that they are nearly
Speaker 3: if they're done well, they are negligent. But when they
Speaker 3: are not done, they're gaping calls.
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, Oh my god, I love this conversation so much.
Speaker 1: But Aphrodite, so there is like in the Homeric came
Speaker 1: to Aphrodite, there is mention of like the threat of her.
Speaker 1: You know, that's the one where she Zeus kind of
Speaker 1: gets sort of want to have sex with anchises and
Speaker 1: because he's like mad that her power over love and
Speaker 1: sex always has the gods going after mortal women. But
Speaker 1: like she's never gone after immortal and he gets kind
Speaker 1: of like worked up about it. But equally, like the
Speaker 1: reason why he has her Mary Hephaistus is that he
Speaker 1: recognizes that her power is such that she has to
Speaker 1: be tamped down in some way because if she has
Speaker 1: this free reign, like she can make them do anything
Speaker 1: through love and lust. And so I think that while
Speaker 1: we don't have the same example of a story where
Speaker 1: Demeter fully withholds it, like a lot of our stories
Speaker 1: around Aphrodite contain the threat of either withholding it or
Speaker 1: putting it on in a way that the gods don't want.
Speaker 1: And so I think, yeah, like that's really that's such
Speaker 1: an interesting way of seeing it.
Speaker 2: This this this type of.
Speaker 1: Power that they have that is is like totally hidden
Speaker 1: until it's not and then you're in real trouble.
Speaker 3: And obviously, like with if Aphrodite little withheld her power,
Speaker 3: the threat is extinction. It's not solvable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, both of them hold like like the
Speaker 1: absolute like epitome of control over the world in that way.
Speaker 3: Yes, So it's a there's some really cool goddesses out
Speaker 3: there for people to consider. I think that it's a
Speaker 3: shame for me that a Western narrative has not told
Speaker 3: you of that has not a kind of like I think,
Speaker 3: especially for Demater and going back to that, although a
Speaker 3: forrad it is of such a great example that one
Speaker 3: now can I write novel as well? I love this conversation.
Speaker 1: I'm working on that too, So don't worry.
Speaker 3: Okay, excellent, I'm looking forward to that. But what was
Speaker 3: I saying? I forgot but yes, but Demeter, because the
Speaker 3: myth of Haydes and posephony so popular the last few years,
Speaker 3: it is such a shame that that myth who's had drastic,
Speaker 3: horrible consequences for the world above, has never really discussed
Speaker 3: like it's a traumatic thing that happened to the world.
Speaker 3: It's kind of like, if you look at this now,
Speaker 3: it'sychological disaster and how like, and which I think is
Speaker 3: also not coincidence, because I don't know if you're aware
Speaker 3: of the Greek Dark Ages, where there seems to have
Speaker 3: been this character entrapped stop of civilization and it kind
Speaker 3: of needed to restart. It does for me feel like
Speaker 3: a memory of when something so bad happened that kind
Speaker 3: of everything needed to stop and then start again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder if that's something where like because I
Speaker 1: know the like the Dark Ages have been sort of
Speaker 1: reevaluated and like typically called like the early Iron Ages
Speaker 1: now because they have some remnants of things. But yes,
Speaker 1: like very little written word. You know, there was that
Speaker 1: kind of like real big blip in ancient Greek history,
Speaker 1: and I kind of wonder, you know, specifically when it
Speaker 1: comes to the story of Demeter being this kind of
Speaker 1: like restart, Like all it makes me think of is
Speaker 1: the eruption of Thera And how like you know, if
Speaker 1: you were talking about this sort of like remembered history
Speaker 1: very far in the past where you don't you don't
Speaker 1: have an exact memory of it, but like you know
Speaker 1: what what else looks like a horrific famine but specifically
Speaker 1: tied to the fertility of the earth. Then a volcanic
Speaker 1: eruption so big that it would have changed the face
Speaker 1: of the Mediterranean, right, Like you know, if anything's going
Speaker 1: to cause a complete disrupt in in growing plants and food,
Speaker 1: it's going to be like that level of eruption. And
Speaker 1: so yeah, like it feels it feels like this like
Speaker 1: sort of cultural memory of that time like then put
Speaker 1: into her story, and I know, I'm also just tying
Speaker 1: that because I fucking love volcano story, but still like it.
Speaker 1: You know, it feels it feels like reminiscent.
Speaker 3: No, absolutely, and I think again because Demoter is such
Speaker 3: an old goddess, there's something really old. It kind of
Speaker 3: all ties together.
Speaker 7: So so basically and synopsis, I wrote this story because
Speaker 7: as a little girl, I thought Demoter should have been
Speaker 7: the most important, one of the most important great cause.
Speaker 3: And the world didn't obey my liking. So I decided
Speaker 3: to write her, started to make her a bigger podcast,
Speaker 3: and I thought the world gave her justice.
Speaker 1: I love that so much. That's the perfect reason to
Speaker 1: tell her story. That's just so wonderful.
Speaker 3: I just thought it was, yeah, one of those things
Speaker 3: that it was the story I always think I wanted
Speaker 3: to write. It's very different from other things I write
Speaker 3: because I don't write mythology. Actually a lot. I write
Speaker 3: more second world fantasies, a lot of reimaginings and its
Speaker 3: something like that. But this is potentially my only but
Speaker 3: we'll see actual myth retailling.
Speaker 1: I mean, Demeter deserves it though, like she really does.
Speaker 1: So I'm so glad that you've given her, you know,
Speaker 1: this book, even if it's your only retelling.
Speaker 3: Well, you never know. I mean, there's always elements of myths.
Speaker 3: It's just I've never tried to tell someone's story. I've
Speaker 3: kind of always just thought, I'll take here, this, hear that,
Speaker 3: we'll just use a bit of that, a bit of this,
Speaker 3: We'll just do whatever we want. But that's the time
Speaker 3: I thought, no, I need to look at this as
Speaker 3: a more concrete thing and try not to deviate, because
Speaker 3: if I wanted to deviate, then it would it would
Speaker 3: really be fan fiction.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's so many levels of fan fiction
Speaker 1: in Greek mythology and that I'm telling yeah.
Speaker 3: No, but it would have been like quite a different thing.
Speaker 3: But I did add elements of it, like I did
Speaker 3: add certain scenes that were more for my personal interest,
Speaker 3: as in that, yes, this's happened, somebody needed to pay.
Speaker 3: And obviously Demeter does have those mixed because it has
Speaker 3: the Eddy and I can never pronounce that even in
Speaker 3: Greek d edy psion.
Speaker 1: Oh aerosicthon yes, yeah, yeah, the one who eats himself.
Speaker 3: And I thought, there you go, somebody paink.
Speaker 1: Yes, oh i yah, that's my favorite or one of
Speaker 1: my favorite stories.
Speaker 3: Yes, So I thought I did allow moments like this.
Speaker 3: I was that myth wasn't especially but there were other
Speaker 3: myths as well that kind of gave that slight feeling.
Speaker 3: But I also added a couple of bats here and
Speaker 3: there where it was more me being like, yes, that's
Speaker 3: what should happen, but obviously myology doesn't allow me to
Speaker 3: go frough crazy, so I just added little there. But
Speaker 3: I don't generally write good characters. My characters are all
Speaker 3: terrible people do terrible things.
Speaker 8: My dimeterter was kind of trying to be even more worse,
Speaker 8: I think than the myths allowed. I think I might
Speaker 8: have overdone it in some parts, but I just loved
Speaker 8: the rage, and I.
Speaker 3: Wanted to really literate that. The biggest characteristic of this
Speaker 3: goddess is that she's really angry as her wrath not
Speaker 3: just anger. It's like uncontrollable rage.
Speaker 1: Yes, I just I'm so I'm so happy with all
Speaker 1: of this. I really like, I'm so glad that this
Speaker 1: retelling exists. I just think it's exactly what was like missing.
Speaker 1: I'm pumped.
Speaker 2: Sorry, that's like, that's all I have to say. Outside
Speaker 2: you like it, let me know what you think I will.
Speaker 1: Oh, no, it's yeah, it sounds wonderful, and I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just so I'm so excited. Do you want to
Speaker 1: tell my listeners like a bit more about where to
Speaker 1: find it when it's available? Well, I guess by the
Speaker 1: time this episode comes out, it'll be available. But is
Speaker 1: there more you know about the physical book you want
Speaker 1: to share and anywhere you want my listeners to follow you.
Speaker 2: Or read more or or anything.
Speaker 3: Yes. So, first of all, thank you thinking of buying
Speaker 3: my book, and if you actually do buy it, thank
Speaker 3: you very much for buying it. I'm really really, really,
Speaker 3: really really grateful to every single bit of support I get.
Speaker 3: I think it's really important to support in Depresses because
Speaker 3: they actually do really great work and it's sometimes the
Speaker 3: only places that we're published stories that are not quite mainstream, because,
Speaker 3: as Leeve said, the current publishing trends wouldn't really allow,
Speaker 3: I think, for such a negative portrayal of female methorytelling.
Speaker 3: But if you are interested in buying my book, you
Speaker 3: can find on Amazon. You can find it on my
Speaker 3: publisher's website, which is Ghost Orchard Press. You can also
Speaker 3: find it in quite a few bookstores, such as Waterstones
Speaker 3: in the UK or Barns and Novels in the US.
Speaker 3: I think it is, but really I would ask if
Speaker 3: you can to buy it from the bookshops if you can,
Speaker 3: because that way hopefully will inspire more bookshops to stock
Speaker 3: the book. And if anyone is interested in having questions
Speaker 3: or thoughts or once signed copy, I'm more than happy
Speaker 3: to be contacted on Instagram or through my website, or
Speaker 3: through Twitter, or through blue Sky or threads. There's so
Speaker 3: many social media's I'm pretty much everywhere, so feel free
Speaker 3: to get in touch. I am not that scary. I'm
Speaker 3: just loud and I just will talk on my own.
Speaker 3: But this is how I was raised. I am very
Speaker 3: sorry for being such a blobber mouth. I suffer from
Speaker 3: words diarrhea. But I'm really nice.
Speaker 5: You are.
Speaker 1: No, this has been the one of the like I'm
Speaker 1: so excited for this whole conversation.
Speaker 2: One of that was too much talking.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, this was me on my good behavior.
Speaker 1: Oh no, it's wonderful. I will link to whatever I
Speaker 1: can in the episode's description so my listeners can find everything.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm just I'm really so thrilled. This conversation
Speaker 2: was so much fun.
Speaker 1: I just all the different levels, like between hearing you
Speaker 1: know about Retellings from your perspective as a Greek person
Speaker 1: is so so.
Speaker 2: Important to me.
Speaker 1: But also Demeter getting a female rage story, like I
Speaker 1: just think, is so what what Retellings needed that. I'm
Speaker 1: just I'm really thrilled to have spoken with you and
Speaker 1: to have that that your book is going to exist
Speaker 1: in the world. So thank you so much for talking
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 3: I just want to finace by saying, thank you so
Speaker 3: much for having me. It was such a great opportunity
Speaker 3: to talk about Demeter with someone that really seems to
Speaker 3: get demittered the way I do. So I am so
Speaker 3: I got this chance, and thank you so much for
Speaker 3: your support.
Speaker 1: No, thank you, Oh I'm so thrilled. Ugh Nerds, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for listening. You can find links to
Speaker 1: Winter Harvest and following along with Iwana for more in
Speaker 1: the episode's description. But if you're able, check out this book.
Speaker 1: I think it's basically available everywhere. You just have to
Speaker 1: work a little harder for it because it is an
Speaker 1: indie publisher, But honestly that's the best because we need those,
Speaker 1: So please support this book, this author, the publisher themselves.
Speaker 1: I wish I had more to say at this end,
Speaker 1: but Like I said, the conversation was recorded at a
Speaker 1: much different time, and I'm just crumbling right now, So
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed it. I really did have so
Speaker 1: much fun, and listening back was absolutely wonderful. I'm just
Speaker 1: reminded so much of everything we talked about and how
Speaker 1: much I learned, and now I'm being reminded of thankfully.
Speaker 1: Editing episodes is the best. But I also just want
Speaker 1: to say, like it was so interesting. I was editing
Speaker 1: this conversation. We recorded it months and months ago, but
Speaker 1: I was editing it, you know, right before it was
Speaker 1: going to drop. And at the same time, I had
Speaker 1: been recording two other conversations for this month's worth of episodes,
Speaker 1: and everything was just fitting together in this really, really
Speaker 1: interesting way. I cannot wait for March's conversations. At the least.
Speaker 1: Have not written any scripts for regular episodes yet, but
Speaker 1: the conversations are all recorded now and they are good.
Speaker 1: We are talking about angry women. We are talking about
Speaker 1: the things men did to make us forget all of
Speaker 1: the great women of Greek mythology. We are talking about
Speaker 1: boob cups. I'll leave that one for you. Many boobed
Speaker 1: artemists that maybe they weren't boobed. You can just wait
Speaker 1: and see when it comes to that. I have some
Speaker 1: truly incredible episodes coming up, including the one I did
Speaker 1: admit was the either I said sexiest or smuttiest. Either
Speaker 1: one is relevant episodes that I've ever done on the show,
Speaker 1: So stay tuned. Today's is just capping things off with
Speaker 1: an angry, righteous, and vengeful demeter, something I think we
Speaker 1: all maybe need a little bit right now. I know
Speaker 1: I do, so thank you all for listening. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about Myth's Baby is written and produced by me Live
Speaker 1: Albert MICHAELA. Smith is the Hermes to my Olympians. My
Speaker 1: assistant producer, Laura Smith is the production assistant and audio engineer.
Speaker 1: The podcast is part of the iHeart Podcast Network. Listen
Speaker 1: on Spotify or Apple or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: Help me continue bringing you the world of Greek mythology
Speaker 1: and the Ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron, where you
Speaker 1: will get to bonus episodes and more. Visit patreon dot com,
Speaker 1: slash myths Baby, or the link in this episode's description.
Speaker 1: Thank you all so much. Stay tuned for more women,
Speaker 1: more wild stories, women's sexuality. I think we are covering
Speaker 1: in this episode in this month's episodes in a very
Speaker 1: new way, and I'm really looking forward to it. There
Speaker 1: is so much more to come. Stay tuned. Happy March everyone,
Speaker 1: Thank you all. I am live and I love this shit.