Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha, and welcome to stuff
Speaker 1: I've Never told you production of iHeart Radio. And today
Speaker 1: it is with a heavy heart we bring this one back.
Speaker 1: It is so informative, it's so useful, so helpful. But
Speaker 1: I wanted to bring back this episode we did with
Speaker 1: bridget right after Roe v. Wade was overturned because we
Speaker 1: saw then and we were continuing to see now the
Speaker 1: fallout of that, and it has been pretty frightening. And
Speaker 1: we have an episode coming up. If you're listening to
Speaker 1: this when it comes up, that's kind of an update
Speaker 1: about it. But I thought this would be kind of
Speaker 1: a useful and probably kind of shaken, kind of leave
Speaker 1: you a little shaken snapshot of what was going on
Speaker 1: right after it happens. So please I hesitate the same
Speaker 1: and joy but it is really good still episode, this
Speaker 1: classic episode.
Speaker 2: Hey, this is Danny and Samantha.
Speaker 1: I don't Stephan never told your protection of iHeartRadio, and
Speaker 1: today we are once again thrilled to be joined by
Speaker 1: the incomparable, amazing, astounding Bridgete Todd y'all.
Speaker 3: They're too kind.
Speaker 4: I'm so happy to be here with you, even though
Speaker 4: I feel like sometimes I hang out with y'all in
Speaker 4: times of rage. It definitely feels like today, right, Yes.
Speaker 1: Well, there's no one we would rather hang out with
Speaker 1: in times of rage.
Speaker 3: I'll kick that as a compliment.
Speaker 5: Yes, is we want to commiserate and be enraged together.
Speaker 5: I feel like we get things done. I'm not sure
Speaker 5: that's true, but I'm assume that in my head.
Speaker 1: Yes, And as listeners probably know based on the title
Speaker 1: and description of this episode, we are talking about abortion
Speaker 1: and the relation of abortion to technology and Roe v.
Speaker 1: Wade and the devastating news we've gotten recently. And you
Speaker 1: sent had an email Bridget and you're like, Hi, choosing
Speaker 1: the topic, And I was just curious if you've already
Speaker 1: done a bunch of stuff about this already, and to
Speaker 1: be honest, and I hope that this doesn't like infuriate you.
Speaker 1: But I was like, I hope Bridget's going to talk
Speaker 1: about this because you have so much experience.
Speaker 6: And again, I don't want to put you in a box.
Speaker 6: I don't want you ever had to feel like you
Speaker 6: have to talk about these things.
Speaker 1: But I was like, Oh, Bridget's going to come on
Speaker 1: and she's going to have so much great information about
Speaker 1: this through these dark times that will make it feel
Speaker 1: less dark.
Speaker 4: Yes, I do not take that as an insult. You know,
Speaker 4: I have worked more not the entire thing, but most
Speaker 4: of my adult life in and adjacent to abortion access.
Speaker 3: And yeah, so it's.
Speaker 4: Something that I really hold very dear, and it's something
Speaker 4: that's been a big part of not just my work
Speaker 4: but also my personal life. It's something that really permeates
Speaker 4: a lot of my other social and political ideology and values.
Speaker 4: And so I'm not offended at all. I was like,
Speaker 4: thank goodness, I've got a sminty book to talk about it.
Speaker 4: But I know that both of you all are based
Speaker 4: in Georgia, which is a state that is not particularly
Speaker 4: hospitable to abortion care. So I feel like I have
Speaker 4: to start by asking, you know, how are we doing.
Speaker 6: The loaded question? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we want to circle back and hear about
Speaker 1: how you're doing as well. Bridget we just did a
Speaker 1: reaction episode. It hasn't come out yet, but it'll come
Speaker 1: out soon about how we felt about it when the
Speaker 1: day happens, and it's pretty emotional.
Speaker 6: I feel like I feel pretty.
Speaker 1: Sad and angry and heartbroken and scared, and like things
Speaker 1: feel very uncertain and the day it was announced, I
Speaker 1: had a bunch of friends happen to be coming in
Speaker 1: from out of town to stay with me, and they're
Speaker 1: all women and one of them's a nurse, and we
Speaker 1: just like talked about it and everyone was so scared.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, scared was the main thing. And angry,
Speaker 1: very angry, but yeah, yeah, I mean, it's just it's
Speaker 1: hard to It's like an emotion inside me that's just
Speaker 1: whirling around, and it feels like almost always on the
Speaker 1: verge of a panic.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a good way of saying, like it feels
Speaker 5: like the end of the world for a certain extent
Speaker 5: of what we're talking about and how we're seeing things
Speaker 5: in the future. You know, Georgia has been one of
Speaker 5: those as of late, being kind of the Purple State
Speaker 5: essentially with two of our senators being Democrats, which is
Speaker 5: the first time in history that we've been able to
Speaker 5: push that and feeling like everything is on the line
Speaker 5: right now because of things like what is happening with
Speaker 5: the Supreme Court, with all of the different rulings that
Speaker 5: are happening. We're seeing how bad it's gotten and we
Speaker 5: had to push so hard to get to this point.
Speaker 5: But it felt it feels almost like we had very
Speaker 5: little difference in the overall impact that I know that's
Speaker 5: not true.
Speaker 2: This is me being a.
Speaker 5: Little bit catastrophic about all of this, devastated in the
Speaker 5: moment and taking a moment to be like, Okay, this
Speaker 5: is what it is, feeling like we've had to fight
Speaker 5: so hard and I know, actually that's the first time
Speaker 5: I met you, Bridget, you had actually said that to
Speaker 5: me about how you had to work so hard to
Speaker 5: get to to CDC, to get to where it was,
Speaker 5: and us coming in here being like, yeah, we get it.
Speaker 5: This year has been this last few years has been
Speaker 5: that for us to push so hard and seeing so
Speaker 5: many good things happen and then coming to this moment
Speaker 5: of like, oh god, we're back to square one. It
Speaker 5: feels like and I know it's not true because it
Speaker 5: should be hopeful, but seeing all these things doesn't always
Speaker 5: get you motivated, right, And it's one of those things
Speaker 5: and seeing, Okay, we have Stacy Abrams and we really
Speaker 5: do want to see her come through, and we've already
Speaker 5: had one big disappointment and there's a lot of contention
Speaker 5: in that election, and we're coming back to round two
Speaker 5: and we know that they've already kind of stacked the
Speaker 5: cards and how this is going to play out, but
Speaker 5: we can, you know, push through, maybe it can happen.
Speaker 5: Of course, the women of color, the black women here,
Speaker 5: have been fighting so hard and have really pushed us
Speaker 5: to that victory. Being here and knowing that the impact
Speaker 5: of what's happening in the Supreme Court impacts what's happening
Speaker 5: to us so severely, Like there's so many things that
Speaker 5: just feels overwhelming, that the intersectionality of all of.
Speaker 2: The issues, it feels heavy. It feels so heavy.
Speaker 5: Annie and I are trying to find a way to
Speaker 5: like focus on, like, all right, we have to be active,
Speaker 5: we have to move forward, we have to be advocates.
Speaker 5: We can't sit in turmoil because we don't have that time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I plus plus plus to all of that, and
Speaker 4: I think it can be hard because you know, humans
Speaker 4: are only meant to take so much.
Speaker 3: Right, It just feel like I saw a tweet that was.
Speaker 4: Something to the effect of like the last few years
Speaker 4: have been getting the worst news imaginable every day for
Speaker 4: like several months, and I guess that's how it has felt.
Speaker 4: And you know, the day that we got the news
Speaker 4: about row. It was I'm not gonna lie like it was.
Speaker 3: A tough day. I physically got sick to my like I.
Speaker 4: Got sick, like I was not expecting it, like I
Speaker 4: I even though I knew it was coming, and like
Speaker 4: it wasn't a surprise to me. I was really surprised
Speaker 4: by how physically difficult I took it. But I think
Speaker 4: you're exactly right that it's it really takes constant reminders
Speaker 4: that whatever I have to do to take care of
Speaker 4: myself so that I'm in this for the long haul,
Speaker 4: I need to do so, whether it's taking an afternoon
Speaker 4: to be like, you know, I'm gonna go for a walk,
Speaker 4: I'm not gonna check the news, or I'm gonna do this,
Speaker 4: or I'm gonna do that, doing it in service of
Speaker 4: being able to be here for the long haul, because
Speaker 4: it's it's you know, it's a marathon, not a sprint, right.
Speaker 5: And you know, one of the things that I have
Speaker 5: a bad habit of, and I'm so glad you're here,
Speaker 5: is that I take face value to the worst news
Speaker 5: because at this point I'm just ready and I'm like, yeah, obviously,
Speaker 5: obviously this is gonna be the worst thing ever, and
Speaker 5: a lot of this has been disinformation and me like,
Speaker 5: one of the things that I thought with a trigger
Speaker 5: band was like automatically, all thirteen of those days are done,
Speaker 5: and that's not actually true.
Speaker 2: And knowing that I have you as one of my lists.
Speaker 5: Of people with Ultra Violet, like, Okay, they're gonna let
Speaker 5: me know, calm down, Samantha, You're just get playing it
Speaker 5: up where it becomes hopeless. So thank you for being here,
Speaker 5: and please talk me off this ledge.
Speaker 3: Oh I am happy to.
Speaker 4: And you know, as I said, I've worked most of
Speaker 4: my life in or around abortion access and protecting it
Speaker 4: and advocating for it. And it's actually one of the
Speaker 4: reasons why I started my podcast There Are No Girls
Speaker 4: on the Internet, is because I started to see how
Speaker 4: when I was doing that work, I wasn't really thinking
Speaker 4: about it necessarily as a quote tech issue. I thought
Speaker 4: of it as a you know, feminist issue, a women's issue,
Speaker 4: a health issue, a justice issue, a human rights issue.
Speaker 3: All of those things.
Speaker 4: But I didn't really have the analysis yet of it
Speaker 4: being a technology issue. And so looking back, I really
Speaker 4: wish I had really done the work in a way
Speaker 4: that honored that reality. And you know, I feel like
Speaker 4: I'm kind of making up for lost time. But you know,
Speaker 4: I started my podcast because I really saw a pervasive
Speaker 4: attitude around conversations involving technology and the Internet that pushed
Speaker 4: women and queer folks and non binary folks and trans
Speaker 4: people really out of a conversation and said that the
Speaker 4: conversation is for white, heterosexual, cisgender men, and that attitude
Speaker 4: really opened up these big gaps for exploitation and harm
Speaker 4: and that we and by we, I mean like women,
Speaker 4: queer folks, you know, people who are historically marginalized. We
Speaker 4: are the ones who are definitely more likely to be
Speaker 4: harmed by technology than straight white men. And so the
Speaker 4: conversation around abortion, to me, really shows how technology can
Speaker 4: really when we're not included in the conversation, we're not
Speaker 4: thinking about it, and we're not checked in with what's
Speaker 4: going on around the internet and technology, it really opens
Speaker 4: up these avenues per harm.
Speaker 3: And I really wanted to.
Speaker 4: Talk about some of the ways that abortion and technology
Speaker 4: are now intercepting in this post row world that we're
Speaker 4: finding ourselves in.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I feel like a lot of the conversations
Speaker 1: I'm seeing now are about technology, they are about.
Speaker 6: The way our data is collected.
Speaker 1: I know we're going to talk about that later, the
Speaker 1: way we can access information or can't access information, and
Speaker 1: if that information is even correct.
Speaker 6: And I know you've been on here before and you've.
Speaker 1: Talked about like, yes, the power of misinformation and disinformation,
Speaker 1: and that has been a.
Speaker 6: Huge thing when it comes to abortion and continues to be.
Speaker 4: Oh yes, we're seeing a flood of inaccurate and misleading
Speaker 4: miss and disinformation about abortion. And truly, as soon as
Speaker 4: the draft Scho dis opinion leaked back in May and
Speaker 4: Politico instantaneously we saw people using social media to spread
Speaker 4: both miss and disinformation about abortion. Just a reminder, misinformation
Speaker 4: is inaccurate information that's being spread. The person doesn't necessarily
Speaker 4: know it's inaccurate. They're not doing that on purpose, maybe
Speaker 4: they think it's true. Disinformation is the purposeful spread of
Speaker 4: inaccurate or misleading information to cause confusion or chaos or fear.
Speaker 4: And so immediately people were saying kind of like saym
Speaker 4: kind of like what you were saying that, like this
Speaker 4: means that abortion is illegal starting now this very same day.
Speaker 4: You know, if you had an appointment, that appointment is
Speaker 4: now canceled because abortion is now.
Speaker 3: Illegal, and that's that was not true.
Speaker 4: And I believe that, you know, this was maybe be
Speaker 4: spread by both anti abortion extremists who are purposefully spreading
Speaker 4: medical disinformation basically to talk people out of getting abortions,
Speaker 4: and then that was sort of out in the ether,
Speaker 4: and so people who just like genuinely didn't know what
Speaker 4: was going on, who were, you know, maybe feeling scared or.
Speaker 3: Anxious or confused.
Speaker 4: And so obviously when you're in that state, you're just
Speaker 4: sharing a lot of things and you're not necessarily thinking
Speaker 4: about it. We're then sort of seizing on it and
Speaker 4: sharing it too. But it truly goes to show the deep,
Speaker 4: deep importance of our social media platforms being places where
Speaker 4: folks have access to reliable and consistent, consistently accurate, timely
Speaker 4: information to make decisions about their health. Because if you
Speaker 4: you know, if you log onto Twitter, you know that's
Speaker 4: a place where I get my news, It's where I
Speaker 4: get local information. It's like where I found my local
Speaker 4: COVID testing places when I was getting tested.
Speaker 3: Regularly, and all of that.
Speaker 4: If I log onto Twitter, and it's just a flood
Speaker 4: of information that is just flat out not accurate and
Speaker 4: I'm using that to bait to make decision about my health,
Speaker 4: as I've done in the past on Twitter. Uh, that's
Speaker 4: a problem, and so I think it really it really
Speaker 4: demonstrated the need to have our platforms, if you, places
Speaker 4: where accurate content is really easily accessible.
Speaker 1: One of the most infuriating things that we saw in
Speaker 1: the wake of this reversal of Rob Wade was people
Speaker 1: who were trying to redirect the conversation and who were
Speaker 1: trying to say that it was strange. It was like
Speaker 1: the most strange gaslighting I've ever seen, because they were
Speaker 1: trying to celebrate, but they also were like, but it's
Speaker 1: not banned, though, you're over reacting and you're being like
Speaker 1: violent and too much.
Speaker 5: Right, I mean, honestly, one of the big conversations, which
Speaker 5: is why I was bringing up the election, is right
Speaker 5: now we do have our sendency, and the biggest debate
Speaker 5: on there is about abortion right now.
Speaker 2: Anytime I see anything about any.
Speaker 5: Of the elections, and the misinformation slash disinformation that is on.
Speaker 2: That feed alone is amazing.
Speaker 5: And I'm trying to figure out, Okay, I've heard these
Speaker 5: narratives for so long and it's come back, and people
Speaker 5: are truly pushing this is unreal.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it when so I know exactly what
Speaker 4: you're talking about.
Speaker 3: I've definitely seen it, and I.
Speaker 4: Think it really goes to show when inaccurate or misleading
Speaker 4: information when it taps into something that is like a
Speaker 4: base dark thing inside of us.
Speaker 3: And I say us as I cumans.
Speaker 4: Because I'm definitely susceptible to it. I have definitely been,
Speaker 4: definitely have that that thing in me triggered. It really
Speaker 4: catches on right, And so I see content all the
Speaker 4: time that is clearly meant It's like it's written for me.
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh, well, that hit that stokes all my
Speaker 4: you know, deeply personal individualistic fears and anxieties.
Speaker 3: Clearly this was meant so for me.
Speaker 4: Whenever I feel that, I know that it's my signal
Speaker 4: to like take a beat and like don't just give
Speaker 4: into it.
Speaker 3: But yeah, inaccurate.
Speaker 4: Or misleading information that speaks to these things inside of
Speaker 4: us can.
Speaker 3: Be so effective.
Speaker 4: They're so sticky because bad actors and disinformers and people
Speaker 4: who want to use lies to inflame and divide, they
Speaker 4: know what they're doing.
Speaker 3: They're so good at it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you talked about that when you talked about
Speaker 1: the influence of anti abortion people at the insurrection and
Speaker 1: the influence they had, and then you gave the you know, like,
Speaker 1: we have document documentation that it's actually the anti abortion
Speaker 1: people who are the violent ones historically.
Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, I am so glad that you brought that up.
Speaker 4: So in the wake of the leaked opinion about Roe,
Speaker 4: and in the aftermath of Roe being overturned, so many
Speaker 4: anti I call them anti abortion extremists because they are
Speaker 4: out of step with the majority of Americans, And I'll
Speaker 4: probably say that one hundred more times during this episode.
Speaker 3: But as soon as that went down, they were.
Speaker 4: Saying, like, oh, you know, the real conversation is whoever
Speaker 4: leaked this draft, or the real conversation should be about
Speaker 4: the fact that somebody wrote in shock outside of a
Speaker 4: Supreme Court Justices house like things like that, And the
Speaker 4: real conversation we should be having is, you know, abortion
Speaker 4: advocates vandalizing buildings or YadA, YadA, YadA, And that is
Speaker 4: just an attempt to shift the conversation to distract us,
Speaker 4: because the reality is anti choice extremists are trying to
Speaker 4: block abortion access, something that eighty percent of the country
Speaker 4: is fine with. Is supportive of and so if they
Speaker 4: were to have that conversation about the reality of what
Speaker 4: they're doing, it would make them look terrible because it's
Speaker 4: incredibly unpopular and they know this, and so they needed
Speaker 4: the conversation to be about anything else other than the
Speaker 4: reality of what they're doing. They need the conversation to
Speaker 4: be about who was the leaker?
Speaker 3: Who could it be?
Speaker 4: It's so horrible, the unprecedented nature all of that. They
Speaker 4: need the conversation to be about violence on behalf of
Speaker 4: people who are supportive of abortion, when the reality, you know,
Speaker 4: here in the real world, we know that anti abortion
Speaker 4: extremists they're the ones who have perpetrated violence against abortion
Speaker 4: providers and always have.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's one of those.
Speaker 4: Things where it's like, if you think about it for
Speaker 4: a second, you already know this. You don't need me
Speaker 4: to tell you this, Right, It's why we have clinic
Speaker 4: escorts that wouldn't exist if that wasn't the case, right,
Speaker 4: And so they really want to flip the narrative and
Speaker 4: it's just not true. In the wake of the conversations
Speaker 4: around Row, we saw anti abortion extremists really trying to
Speaker 4: own the conversation by repeating this inaccurate, misleading narrative when
Speaker 4: we know that anti choice extremists have used violence, including
Speaker 4: the murder of doctor George Tiller, who was murdered while
Speaker 4: he was in church has place of worship back in
Speaker 4: two thousand and nine, right, And so.
Speaker 3: It's actually getting worse.
Speaker 4: According to a new report from National Abortion Freedom, abortion
Speaker 4: providers in the US, Canada and Columbia have faced significant
Speaker 4: increases of violence and disruptions to their work in the
Speaker 4: last year compared to the previous year, including stalking, invasions,
Speaker 4: assault and battery.
Speaker 3: And so, yeah, it's this idea that.
Speaker 4: We are facing a wave of violence from people who
Speaker 4: are advocates of abortion in their allies.
Speaker 3: That's just not true if the reality is what we.
Speaker 4: Have already known, is that it's anti abortion extremists who
Speaker 4: are using violence to express themselves and not the other
Speaker 4: way around.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 5: You know, It's interesting because I just read a Twitter
Speaker 5: thread where this woman was talking about her experience and
Speaker 5: having to get an abortion, which was medically necessary even
Speaker 5: though this was a planned pregnancy. She really wanted to
Speaker 5: have a baby and was expecting to carry it to
Speaker 5: full term, but everything went wrong. She had to get
Speaker 5: an abortion. It was pre like it was during a
Speaker 5: time where it was really looked down upon and frowned upon,
Speaker 5: and she had to travel to actually go to doctor Tiller,
Speaker 5: and how she was talking about the fact that she
Speaker 5: had to visit him and when he came out he
Speaker 5: had to have a gun on him because he'd already
Speaker 5: been threatened. It was an interesting thread in her talking
Speaker 5: so deeply about this personal experience and why she did
Speaker 5: it and having to go and travel to him to
Speaker 5: get this done. And then at the end, you know,
Speaker 5: she goes into on to say that this was the
Speaker 5: same doctor that got killed at the church. The amount
Speaker 5: of comments from anti abortion people completely skipped the entirety
Speaker 5: of the fact that someone was murdered for doing the
Speaker 5: service and went to, yeah, but this story is not
Speaker 5: true because why would you have to go out of state?
Speaker 5: This story is not like just picking up part her
Speaker 5: story rather than seeing the end. And it was just like, Wow,
Speaker 5: this is the way they are reaching to take apart
Speaker 5: the violence that that is happening and what has happened
Speaker 5: and the true loss of life to this is such
Speaker 5: a mental gymnastics, but it's working.
Speaker 2: That's the part is people fed on this.
Speaker 3: You're absolutely right.
Speaker 4: That story is heartbreaking and infuriating, but it is not surprising,
Speaker 4: and I think part of why stories like that are
Speaker 4: able to take off so much and have that stickiness
Speaker 4: where people like feel like it's okay to tear her
Speaker 4: story apart and all of that, I think, you know,
Speaker 4: I talk a lot about how misleading narratives around things
Speaker 4: like abortion fester on social media, but I think that
Speaker 4: these things have been there since way before.
Speaker 3: Social media was ever a thing. Like think about the ways.
Speaker 4: That mainstream media, like news outlets and newspapers have done
Speaker 4: a lot of the work of anti choice extremists for
Speaker 4: them by spending decades framing abortion as this quote controversial
Speaker 4: issue when the reality is eighty percent of Americans support
Speaker 4: abortion access. There is not a place in the United States,
Speaker 4: even in the deepest of red states, where the majority
Speaker 4: of people.
Speaker 3: There are against abortion access.
Speaker 4: And so all of these stories that we saw, all
Speaker 4: these news stories that framed it as this controversial issue
Speaker 4: where there's two sides, we got to like hear both
Speaker 4: sides and all of that, leaving out the plain, honest
Speaker 4: truth that Americans are not on abortion care. It's actually
Speaker 4: something that we are really the majority, like are united
Speaker 4: on you know, it's like, there's not many things where
Speaker 4: I was in America where eighty percent of people like it,
Speaker 4: other than like, I don't know, maybe Tom Hanks or like,
Speaker 4: you know, I'm struggling to think of others, right, So, like,
Speaker 4: there's not that many things, but abortion care and the
Speaker 4: importance of predicting abortion access is one of them. And
Speaker 4: yet we still see media treating it as as this
Speaker 4: controversial issue. Where is the controversy America has its mind
Speaker 4: made up? And it's anti choice extremists who are pushing
Speaker 4: through abortion bands and making it harder for people to
Speaker 4: access abortions against the wishes of a majority, a clear
Speaker 4: majority of the American public.
Speaker 1: Yes, And I'm glad you brought that up because, as
Speaker 1: we've discussed multiple times, I grew up in a very
Speaker 1: small conservative town. When I first started on this show,
Speaker 1: one of the very first episodes in twenty ten we
Speaker 1: did was like Politics for You abortion episode, and it
Speaker 1: was a it made news in our office like, oh,
Speaker 1: they're talking about abortion, Like, oh my god, it's going
Speaker 1: to be so controversial. And I always thought it was
Speaker 1: super controversial because this is the story I've been fed
Speaker 1: And so when I heard like, oh yeah, eighty percent
Speaker 1: of people.
Speaker 5: Are on it.
Speaker 6: I was shocked, Like that shocked me.
Speaker 1: And that's how effective this has been that I was
Speaker 1: so surprised and like, I know, we're going to.
Speaker 6: Have silver lining at the end, promise listeners.
Speaker 1: But one of the silver linings that's come out of
Speaker 1: this mess for me has been like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: look at all these people that agree with me.
Speaker 6: And I thought it was such a controversial thing.
Speaker 1: Oh but I could go into a whole thing about
Speaker 1: high school debate team and the abortion argument, but people
Speaker 1: get so inflamed about it.
Speaker 6: Oh my god, speaking of social media.
Speaker 1: While the media has done this great job of already
Speaker 1: feeding as this narrative that abortion is very controversial, social
Speaker 1: media like inflamed it.
Speaker 3: Right, absolutely so.
Speaker 4: As I said, these incorrect narratives and misleading narratives about abortion,
Speaker 4: how Americans feel about them, who has them, how you
Speaker 4: can access them, lies about all of those things did
Speaker 4: not start with social media, but social media really allows
Speaker 4: them to spread quickly and become legitimized, right, And so
Speaker 4: I believe that platforms need to be doing a lot.
Speaker 3: More to fix that. Right now.
Speaker 4: Platforms do not treat lies about abortion as medical misinformation
Speaker 4: the way that they would or you know, for inaccivate
Speaker 4: information about COVID or vaccines.
Speaker 3: And I think it's because.
Speaker 4: We have a harder time when I mean, this is
Speaker 4: just my as someone who studies disinformation and works on
Speaker 4: the internet, this is just like my opinion.
Speaker 3: I think that when there is an.
Speaker 4: Identity issue layered into myths or disinformation, it becomes harder
Speaker 4: to talk about clearly. And so if you're like, oh,
Speaker 4: vaccines are safe or some fact based thing about COVID,
Speaker 4: people are like, yep, that is you know, that's that's
Speaker 4: fine if you lie about those things.
Speaker 3: I think most people.
Speaker 4: You know, most reasonable people are like, oh, that's medical misinformation.
Speaker 4: When you layer on a clear identity issue, like you know,
Speaker 4: everybody should have access to gender affirming healthcare, that's Those
Speaker 4: are the things that I think that it is harder
Speaker 4: to see as the medical misinformation it really is. And
Speaker 4: so we treat lies about COVID and vaccines and things
Speaker 4: like that as clearly medical misinformation. We treat lies about
Speaker 4: trans folks, queer folks, women and our care as something else.
Speaker 3: I would argue that both.
Speaker 4: Are forms of medical misinformation, and further both are threats
Speaker 4: to our public health.
Speaker 1: Yes, and so far it seems like social media and
Speaker 1: the people the powers that be behind them do not
Speaker 1: agree with you, or at least they're not taking action
Speaker 1: about that right.
Speaker 5: Right as In fact, I've just recently I read an
Speaker 5: article saying that they've found out that Facebook, Meta and
Speaker 5: Instagram we're slowly just taking off actual information anything that
Speaker 5: mentions like Plan B or the abortion pill.
Speaker 3: Right, yes, yes, yes, yes, so right now.
Speaker 4: Social media platforms are basically, I would argue, enabling and
Speaker 4: profiting from the spread of both organic and paid content
Speaker 4: that promote dangerous medical disinformation and misinformation around things like
Speaker 4: the abortion pill, even though this medication has a very
Speaker 4: long track record of scientific study and safety.
Speaker 3: Quick side note.
Speaker 4: With my work at Ultraviolet, working with our coalition called
Speaker 4: the Women's Disinformation Defense Project, Ultraviolet and other organizations met
Speaker 4: with social media platforms to flag clear, specific examples of
Speaker 4: really dangerous lies about abortion on their platform. We did
Speaker 4: this last month, right after the elite opinion around row
Speaker 4: came out, because we knew we were going to need to,
Speaker 4: you know, bring this to their attention, and when we did,
Speaker 4: they quickly acted to take those those lies about abortion
Speaker 4: down because they agreed that it was important for platforms
Speaker 4: to be a place where oh wait no, just kidding,
Speaker 4: just kidding, nothing, those they didn't do anything, and so
Speaker 4: they can't say, oh, we didn't know, because we sat
Speaker 4: there and showed them. They can't say, oh, we didn't
Speaker 4: have time. We're working on it because we showed them
Speaker 4: a month ago. And so it just goes to show
Speaker 4: how I don't know. I just want platforms to do better.
Speaker 4: I think that we should be able to deserve better.
Speaker 4: I think that you know, these platforms, they have so
Speaker 4: much money, they have so many resources, and they still can't.
Speaker 3: Get it right. And we've also seen really.
Speaker 4: Horrible medical misinformation about this process that they call quote
Speaker 4: abortion rehearsal. I'm putting scare quotes around that, which is
Speaker 4: this idea that pill based abortion can be reversed, which
Speaker 4: is total nonsense, not grounded in science. Platforms have allowed
Speaker 4: both organic and paid promotion of potentially life threatening claims
Speaker 4: about this dangerous and medically unproven procedure, even while the
Speaker 4: American College of ABSTRICTIX and Guynecology, which publishes practice guidelines
Speaker 4: for OBGYN care, including abortion, does not recommend the practice
Speaker 4: stating that quote claims of medication abortion reversal are not
Speaker 4: supported by the body of scientific evidence, and this approach
Speaker 4: is not recommended in ACOG's Clinical Guidance on medication abortion.
Speaker 4: As shown by the failed study, this approach is not safe,
Speaker 4: not non effective, nor is it based in medical evidence.
Speaker 4: Yet platforms allow dangerous, inaccurate content that you know, around
Speaker 4: abortion reversal, saying like, oh, if you took an abortion pill,
Speaker 4: there's a process where you can reverse it, even though
Speaker 4: it's not true, and so stuff like that can really
Speaker 4: be life threatening, and yet platforms are allowing it on
Speaker 4: their on their platforms and making money from it.
Speaker 5: Wow, because that's kind of on the same lines of
Speaker 5: like trying to get activists and we're like, you know,
Speaker 5: we're you're well intended, but stop using hangars as a
Speaker 5: symbol because there is a safe access and then having
Speaker 5: that on top of the reversal. Oh my god, the
Speaker 5: level of misinformation for young people out there trying to
Speaker 5: figure out what is an option. Ah, we're gonna it's
Speaker 5: gonna kill people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I mean, you really said it.
Speaker 4: I really see this as an issue where so many
Speaker 4: things are layered on so like there's the misinformation. There's
Speaker 4: also like people who are like I think, genuinely like
Speaker 4: very well meaning, sort of perpetuating. I mean, I don't
Speaker 4: want to It's a hard conversation, Like I don't want
Speaker 4: to shame anybody for like using the wrong language. And
Speaker 4: I think if you're in the fight, that's great. Even
Speaker 4: if you got to the fight late, that's great.
Speaker 3: We need you.
Speaker 4: And so you know, I don't want to shame anybody
Speaker 4: for like not starting their journey of activism around this
Speaker 4: issue knowing the exact right messaging and the exact right
Speaker 4: framing and the things to say, the things to not say,
Speaker 4: what's helpful, because I certainly didn't know those things. Like
Speaker 4: I was looking at my Facebook and I was like,
Speaker 4: oh yeah, back in the day, like twenty ten, code
Speaker 4: hanger imagery was all over.
Speaker 3: My Facebook about being very helpful.
Speaker 4: I didn't know any better, And so I don't want
Speaker 4: to shame anybody who doesn't necessarily know the right thing.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Think it's one of those things where we have so
Speaker 4: much catching up to do as a movement, and there
Speaker 4: are so many intersecting things against us that it can
Speaker 4: sometimes be like, wow, we are really we're really not
Speaker 4: in a great place. It feels sometimes.
Speaker 5: Right, and you know, I'm completely with you, but like, honestly,
Speaker 5: I didn't in twenty ten, shoot until like last year,
Speaker 5: knowing about the abortion pill. I'm like, oh, oh wow, Okay,
Speaker 5: this is a whole different level of understanding of what
Speaker 5: this is and that there is a safe access and
Speaker 5: we need to make sure that we talk about it,
Speaker 5: because yes, there are so many bad things. We don't
Speaker 5: want to go back to the old way. We don't
Speaker 5: have to cross your fingers or so that we can
Speaker 5: do the new access. Like there's so many rebellious I
Speaker 5: love it people out there who are helping get access
Speaker 5: to abortion through these abortion pills, and how much safer
Speaker 5: it is, and we need to remind people of that.
Speaker 5: But you know, also, on top of all of this,
Speaker 5: what I'm thinking when it comes to anything with social
Speaker 5: media in general, I feel like the conspiracy and I
Speaker 5: don't think it's a conspiracy overall that we've already seen
Speaker 5: and talked about how just regular marginalized content creators are
Speaker 5: being shadow band I feel like.
Speaker 2: It's a prep up to this. Am I just being
Speaker 2: out there?
Speaker 4: You are not being out there in the least sam
Speaker 4: And it's one of those things where it feels like,
Speaker 4: when you talk about this, it feels like conspiracy theory,
Speaker 4: but it's not. And so platforms are definitely absolutely limiting
Speaker 4: what people can say about abortion and abortion pills. They
Speaker 4: are people are having statements about abortion pills taken off
Speaker 4: of platforms like Facebook. Vice actually did some really interesting
Speaker 4: reporting into this. So on Friday, Vice's tech vertical motherboard,
Speaker 4: one of their reporters attempted to post the phrase abortion
Speaker 4: pills can be mailed on Facebook using a burner account.
Speaker 4: The post was flagged within seconds as violating the site's
Speaker 4: community standards, specifically the rules around buying, selling, or exchanging
Speaker 4: medical and non medical drugs. The reporter was given the
Speaker 4: option to disagree with the decision or agree with it.
Speaker 4: After they shows disagree the post, what's removed. They were
Speaker 4: able to post phrases like painkillers can be can be mailed,
Speaker 4: pills and quote abortion without issue. Motherboard then posted abortion
Speaker 4: pills can be mailed a second time and it was
Speaker 4: flagged for removal, and this time the reporter agreed with
Speaker 4: the decision. And so something I know about Facebook's content policies.
Speaker 4: They say, oh, we remove anything that's illegal.
Speaker 3: But the phrase abortion.
Speaker 4: Pills can be can be mailed, that's just like a
Speaker 4: fact that's not you know, an.
Speaker 3: Admission of illegal behavior. And so it really goes.
Speaker 4: To show the complete failure of content moderation policies that
Speaker 4: platforms are using. You know, we've been sounding in the
Speaker 4: alarm way before this decision about the fact that that
Speaker 4: platforms are going to become hotbeds of life threatening misinformation,
Speaker 4: and just that their moderation policies aren't don't work. They're
Speaker 4: not transparent, they're not consistent. People don't know how they work,
Speaker 4: and they're not able to tell us with any kind
Speaker 4: of transparency how they work. And so again I think,
Speaker 4: really this moment shows how bad platforms have failed us
Speaker 4: and how little they're working to correct the problem.
Speaker 1: Right, And it feels just extremely hypocritical when they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: we're a platform or technology, we don't take size, but
Speaker 1: you can't post that that thing, you know.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: One of the things my friends and I've seen a
Speaker 1: lot of conversation about is, you know, people keep saying
Speaker 1: we're back to before real VWAD, but it's different now
Speaker 1: because we have all of this technology and people are
Speaker 1: worried about, oh, social media, can they use that?
Speaker 6: But also like period checker apps.
Speaker 1: I know have been a big part of this conversation
Speaker 1: and fear totally.
Speaker 3: So I'm so glad that you brought that up.
Speaker 4: As Sam was saying, you know, in twenty twenty two,
Speaker 4: the conversation around abortion care is not you know, quote
Speaker 4: back alley abortions and coat hangering all of that.
Speaker 3: I understand why people are.
Speaker 4: Using that, and I'm again like I get it, but
Speaker 4: the conversation because of the availability of things like abortion,
Speaker 4: pill based abortion and self managed abortion, is really not
Speaker 4: around that kind that kind of access like.
Speaker 3: Finger as you said, fingers crossed. I don't think we're going.
Speaker 4: To go back to a place where we have to
Speaker 4: resort to that, and pill based abortion is very safe.
Speaker 4: The new frontier is definitely surveillance and criminalization of people
Speaker 4: who need abortions, are looking into abortions, people who are
Speaker 4: pregnant and aren't having a aren't planning on having an
Speaker 4: abortion but maybe miscarry, and people who are aiding others
Speaker 4: and getting abortion and so you know, the last time
Speaker 4: that abortion was illegal in the seventies, you know, before
Speaker 4: Roe v.
Speaker 3: Wade was the law of the land.
Speaker 4: We did not have this vast digital network of surveillance
Speaker 4: that we have today. We didn't all carry GPS devices
Speaker 4: in our pocket or leave digital paper trails of everything
Speaker 4: we've ever googled ever.
Speaker 3: You know, for someone to look at.
Speaker 4: We didn't have platforms that would then share that information
Speaker 4: with all manner of third parties, including law enforcement. You know,
Speaker 4: I want to say, like on the on the period
Speaker 4: tracker thing, the very popular period tracking app Flow faced
Speaker 4: a lawsuit last year app for sharing people's personal information,
Speaker 4: including quote intimate details about sexual health and menstrual cycles,
Speaker 4: with third parties like Facebook and Google, despite public assurances
Speaker 4: that they would not do that, And according to this lawsuit,
Speaker 4: they did that because they know that data is quote
Speaker 4: vital to their business. And so I think all of
Speaker 4: those questions I understand why in the wake of this decision,
Speaker 4: those were the questions that were like flooding social media.
Speaker 4: And when you add in laws like the one in
Speaker 4: Texas that deputize ordinary citizens to turn anyone that they
Speaker 4: suspect of having an abortion or aiding a betting and
Speaker 4: an abortion, turn them in for a ten thousand dollars
Speaker 4: reward slash bounty you can really see the scope of
Speaker 4: what we're facing in terms of surveillance and criminalization and
Speaker 4: so a lot. You know, if someone's listening and they're like, well,
Speaker 4: should I delete my period tracker? Or like, how can
Speaker 4: I stay safe digitally in a post real world.
Speaker 3: I am not a lawyer.
Speaker 4: I this is not legal advice, so like, do not
Speaker 4: take this as legal advice. But I did speak to
Speaker 4: computer scientists and social media expert doctor Jen Golbeck, who
Speaker 4: is currently making a series on TikTok to educate people
Speaker 4: who might need abortions on how to access them more securely.
Speaker 3: If you want to hear the whole interview.
Speaker 4: Which just came out, you can listen to the most
Speaker 4: recent episode of my own podcast, There Are No Girls
Speaker 4: on the Internet. But here is a good summary which
Speaker 4: I'm going to play and it's going to work and
Speaker 4: it's going to be fine to give you a sense
Speaker 4: of some of the steps you can take to keep
Speaker 4: yourself secure. So you know, you've mentioned a couple of
Speaker 4: like really great tips for folks. If you're you know it,
Speaker 4: looking for abortion pills and you want to do it,
Speaker 4: you know in a way that you're going to be
Speaker 4: less likely to be tracked, you know, using a tour browser,
Speaker 4: using an incognito mode when you search using.
Speaker 3: Public Wi Fi.
Speaker 4: Are there other tips that you want to shout out
Speaker 4: for folks if you if they if they might need
Speaker 4: this information.
Speaker 7: So that's all important stuff, I would say for sure.
Speaker 7: The most important one is that you are not paying
Speaker 7: with a credit card or a debit card connected to
Speaker 7: your name, So figure out how much your medication is
Speaker 7: going to cost, use cash by like a Visa Vanilla
Speaker 7: gift card, which you can get anywhere for that amount,
Speaker 7: and then pay with a Visa Vanilla gift card. So
Speaker 7: much of how we're tracked is through credit card number, so.
Speaker 3: Definitely do that.
Speaker 7: And the other way that we're really easily tracked is
Speaker 7: through email address, So set up a fresh email address
Speaker 7: that you are only using to buy this abortion medication.
Speaker 7: Proton mail is the one site that I've recommended for this.
Speaker 7: It's free, it's encrypted, it's really good and secure. You
Speaker 7: can just set up an email address, use it to
Speaker 7: buyer medicine, don't use it for anything else. If you
Speaker 7: do that, gift card fresh email address on something like
Speaker 7: proton mail. You know, I love Gmail, I use it right,
Speaker 7: but they track the hell out of you on Gmail,
Speaker 7: So proton mail, email address, Vanilla gift card. You get
Speaker 7: eighty percent of the protection from tracking just from those
Speaker 7: two measures. So you know that's easy and accessible to anybody.
Speaker 7: Definitely do that.
Speaker 1: Yes, that is such great and helpful information and I
Speaker 1: know a lot of people are looking for it right now,
Speaker 1: So definitely, listeners, go check out that episode if you
Speaker 1: haven't already, and you know not to.
Speaker 6: We're gonna We're about to wrap up here.
Speaker 1: But it's kind of frustrating to me because I've talked
Speaker 1: to my friends about this and they're like, do you
Speaker 1: know anybody who has a regular period?
Speaker 6: No, No, I don't. Oh okay, but we did promise
Speaker 6: the silver lining.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, So as dark as all of that was,
Speaker 4: it is not all terrible news. And I know this
Speaker 4: is a lot, but the good news is that abortion
Speaker 4: advocates and providers have been in this fight for such
Speaker 4: a long time, and I have been spending the better
Speaker 4: part of a decade preparing for this very moment, and so.
Speaker 3: They knew what was coming. They are prepared.
Speaker 4: They have abortion networks, abortion funds, legal expert bail funds, protesters, actions, rallies,
Speaker 4: all at already, and so I know that there was
Speaker 4: a moment, at least for me where it can feel
Speaker 4: very like overwhelming, like what's to be done? There are
Speaker 4: so many different things and resources that have been being
Speaker 4: strengthened for the last ten years that you could tap into,
Speaker 4: listeners at home could tap into.
Speaker 3: And I think that's one of the things that.
Speaker 4: Gives me so much faith and makes me feel a
Speaker 4: little bit better, is that this space is full of dynamic,
Speaker 4: brilliant people who care. And it's like the smartest chick
Speaker 4: from your college, right, the coolest person in your dorm.
Speaker 3: People like that, people who you can look to, the person.
Speaker 4: In your life or in your community who is the loudest, proudest,
Speaker 4: most bold advocate. They're on our side, not the other
Speaker 4: way around. And guess what, it's eighty percent of us.
Speaker 4: There are more of us and there are of them,
Speaker 4: and we will outlast them. And so as stuff as
Speaker 4: all of this is, don't lose hope because there are
Speaker 4: more of us than there are of them. We are
Speaker 4: eighty percent and we're not going anywhere.
Speaker 3: I'm a clap.
Speaker 6: Yeah that deserves flause.
Speaker 2: I needed that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I literally right before we got on
Speaker 4: this call was at a like I just ran it
Speaker 4: in from a action outside of the Supreme Court where
Speaker 4: people were being like I think one.
Speaker 3: Hundred and fifty.
Speaker 4: People were arrested outside of the Supreme Court because they
Speaker 4: refuse to move. And so it was folks like I
Speaker 4: was looking through the crowd and I was like, oh, yeah, her,
Speaker 4: she's a tech expert. Oh yeah, that's busy Phillips. She's
Speaker 4: a celebrity.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah her.
Speaker 4: Like it was like I was going down the line
Speaker 4: and it was just like damn, Like, we are strong
Speaker 4: and mighty and we're not going anywhere.
Speaker 3: We will not be moved. We're not going back, we
Speaker 3: will not back down. We'll see you mothers on the street.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 6: I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1: That was indeed the silver lining we needed. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's important to remember the work people have
Speaker 1: been doing and to respect that and then to continue that. Yes,
Speaker 1: do you have any resources you would like to shout out?
Speaker 3: Absolutely?
Speaker 4: The one that I always shout out is abortion Funds
Speaker 4: dot org. You can find a local abortion fund in
Speaker 4: your community. If you've got money, you can give them
Speaker 4: money their other ways you can donate your time, but
Speaker 4: that's the one I really I think that in this
Speaker 4: in this time right now, giving money to local organizations
Speaker 4: is really the key. I love Planned Parenthood. I used
Speaker 4: to work there. They have plenty of money. If your
Speaker 4: daughter will go like, no shade to them. I love
Speaker 4: their work, but your daugha will go so much further.
Speaker 4: It's smaller local abortion funds, so definitely check out abortion
Speaker 4: Funds dot org and find out if you've got If
Speaker 4: you've got a little coin to spend, I would spend
Speaker 4: it there.
Speaker 6: Awesome.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for joining us, for talking
Speaker 1: about this, for all the work that you've done because
Speaker 1: we were like I hope Bridge it will help us
Speaker 1: through this, remind us with great information and you did so.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, thank you. And Yes, listeners, check
Speaker 1: out where bridgite. You can find Bridget other places including
Speaker 1: her podcasts. You want to tell the listeners everywhere they
Speaker 1: can find you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you check out my podcast. There are no girls
Speaker 4: on the internet. You can follow me on Twitter at
Speaker 4: Bridget Marie or on Instagram at Bridget Marie in DC.
Speaker 6: Yes, and please go do that.
Speaker 1: Listeners if you have not already, and you can email
Speaker 1: us if you would like our email Stephanie Momstuff at
Speaker 1: ihartmeeia dot com. You can find us on Twitter at
Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram. Stuff I've Never Told You,
Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer Christina. Thank you Christina,
Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening Stuff Never Told You.
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