Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: This is Talk Easy.
Speaker 3: I'm stud Fragoso. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Today. I'm joined by doctor Sima Jelani. Doctor Jelani has
Speaker 2: been working in and out of the West Bank for
Speaker 2: the last nineteen years, providing aid as a pediatrician. She
Speaker 2: currently serves as a technical advisor to the IRC, the
Speaker 2: International Rescue Committee. Together with MAP Medical Aid for Palestinians,
Speaker 2: they've deployed EMTs to provide medical care since the war
Speaker 2: erupted back on October seventh, after Homas's deadly attacks in Israel.
Speaker 2: In retaliation, Israel has conducted intense bombing in ground campaigns
Speaker 2: in Gaza, resulting in a healthcare system perennially on the
Speaker 2: brink of collapse. Under the direction of Prime Minister Netan Yahoo,
Speaker 2: the Israeli military has made it increasingly difficult for food
Speaker 2: and medicine to enter the territory. The conflict then came
Speaker 2: to a head this past week as Israeli forces opened
Speaker 2: fire near an AID convoy in Gaza City, killing dozens
Speaker 2: of Palestinians. In response, President Biden pledged that the United
Speaker 2: States would begin air dropping humanitarian relief into Gaza. This
Speaker 2: decision comes after one hundred and forty eight days of
Speaker 2: grueling warfare, resulting in more than thirty thousand Palestinians dead,
Speaker 2: seventy percent of whom are women and children. Innocent people
Speaker 2: got caught up in a terrible war, unable to feed
Speaker 2: their families, said President Biden. We need to do more,
Speaker 2: and the United States will do more. While Palestinians have
Speaker 2: been waiting for the United States to do more, groups
Speaker 2: like the IRC and MAP have been working overtime in
Speaker 2: the region to provide some semblance of support to hospitals.
Speaker 2: They've dispatched trauma doctors, surgeons, pediatricians, water and sanitation experts
Speaker 2: because those two things are not given in this conflict.
Speaker 2: They've dispatched as many people as possible to help mitigate
Speaker 2: this humanitarian crisis. One of those people is our guest today,
Speaker 2: doctor Jelaanni, who's no stranger to working in conflict zones.
Speaker 2: In fact, she's worked in refugee rescue boats off the
Speaker 2: coast of Libya. She's worked in Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon
Speaker 2: during the blast and several other areas of conflict and
Speaker 2: post conflict. And yet, after spending two weeks at the
Speaker 2: Alaxa Hospital in central Gaza this past January. She described
Speaker 2: it as quote the most nightmarish thing I've seen in
Speaker 2: my career. And so what exactly she saw, what we
Speaker 2: all continue to see in flashes online, is the subject
Speaker 2: of today's episode. With that, I'd be remiss to not
Speaker 2: offer a warning to you here at the top, given
Speaker 2: the nature of doctor Jelani's work. She does provide graphic
Speaker 2: descriptions of her time in hospitals in Gaza. That's not
Speaker 2: the bulk of this conversation. It's not something we endlessly
Speaker 2: dwell on, but it is part of it. And so
Speaker 2: with that warning, I just want to thank doctor Jelanni
Speaker 2: again for all the time that she gave us this week,
Speaker 2: for the care, for the vulnerability, and her willingness to
Speaker 2: share her first hand account with us on the show
Speaker 2: on the record. And with that, here is doctor Sema Jelani,
Speaker 2: Doctor Sima Jelani, Thank you.
Speaker 1: For being here, Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 2: You know, I start most episodes asking everyone kind of
Speaker 2: the same pretty simple question, and yet I suspect this
Speaker 2: will be a more loaded proposition for you, which is, how.
Speaker 1: Are you are we still asking that question after the
Speaker 1: pandemic and the cataclysmic scenes that are unfolding and all
Speaker 1: of that. I mean, people do ask me that, and
Speaker 1: the question is, how do you really want to know?
Speaker 2: Answer is on this show. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I am filled with complete gratitude that I have the
Speaker 1: privilege that I do. I am hyper aware I'm holding
Speaker 1: my privilege in my throat as I'm talking to you,
Speaker 1: because I am sitting here and talking to you in
Speaker 1: a silent room, which is not the experience of people
Speaker 1: in Gaza that cannot go one day or any amount
Speaker 1: of hours without a bombardment, a drone, overhead sniper fire.
Speaker 1: And I, for some unknown reason, was lucky enough to
Speaker 1: be born with a passport to have left that behind.
Speaker 1: And I cling to that in hopes of gratitude. And
Speaker 1: when I have a daughter, and as you know, I'm
Speaker 1: a pediatrician, and so when I came back from Gaza,
Speaker 1: I kissed her hands and her feet and her knuckles
Speaker 1: and her fingers because I had seen so many traumatic
Speaker 1: amputations that I just was so comforted and took comfort
Speaker 1: in her in all of that. And so that is
Speaker 1: how I am is sitting in my gratitude. Otherwise I
Speaker 1: think I would be devastated after what I've seen.
Speaker 2: That gratitude I think is tied to a privilege that
Speaker 2: you and I both have, which is to witness this
Speaker 2: moment and to speak about it candidly. And I don't
Speaker 2: think that can be overstated. But as we dive in,
Speaker 2: I want to counterbalance that privilege with how you've described
Speaker 2: people that are quote continuing to watch the landslide as
Speaker 2: voyeuristic onlookers to grief. What did you exactly mean by that?
Speaker 1: I think this conflict is unique, and I can say
Speaker 1: that having worked in and out of humanitarian need for
Speaker 1: about twenty years now, I've worked in Afghanistan and Iraq
Speaker 1: and other places of conflict, in that we are seeing
Speaker 1: it unfold on our phones. If you're in any way
Speaker 1: connected to social media, you have seen graphic, graphic evidence
Speaker 1: of the violence, and you've seen it on children, in women,
Speaker 1: and it feels as sometimes voyeuristic to be watching it
Speaker 1: if you're not doing something to counter it. I personally
Speaker 1: debate that should I be even engaging in watching this
Speaker 1: because it feels voyeuristic.
Speaker 2: Even after having work over there.
Speaker 1: Correct, But then I think, actually I need to watch
Speaker 1: this because that is a denial in and of itself
Speaker 1: It's still happening whether I watch it or not, right,
Speaker 1: I think that, especially you know, I've been the Gaza
Speaker 1: two thousand and five, prior to is really disengagement, and
Speaker 1: then in twenty fifteen, right after the twenty fourteen war.
Speaker 1: So I've had friends there and I've been in and
Speaker 1: out of the West Bank for nineteen years, and I
Speaker 1: do feel a sense of duty, a sense of commitment
Speaker 1: and dedication to friends that are what's happening me and
Speaker 1: telling me how horrific it is, and I feel like
Speaker 1: I do have to engage in that space. I also
Speaker 1: can't go there witness what I saw and not speak
Speaker 1: about it. That to me feels complicit, especially in the
Speaker 1: political environment that we sit in in the US and
Speaker 1: as an American, and so I do equally think that
Speaker 1: while it can feel varnearistic, this is the place that
Speaker 1: we make change. And I'm indebted to people like you
Speaker 1: for elevating those voices in those stories and how important
Speaker 1: it is to speak out about what we are seeing,
Speaker 1: specifically because there are no foreign journalists, there are plenty
Speaker 1: of incredible palest Indian journalists, and access has been limited
Speaker 1: in particular, So I'll start with that so.
Speaker 2: There is a kind of moral imperative that you're talking about,
Speaker 2: and I think that tightrope that we're going to try
Speaker 2: to walk is instructive for having this conversation, and so
Speaker 2: to tell this story and your part in it, I
Speaker 2: want to try to do that chronologically. You were set
Speaker 2: to be dispatched to Gaza on Christmas Day of this
Speaker 2: past year, but before doing so, you said in one
Speaker 2: interview that you had to quote get things managed with
Speaker 2: your family. What did that mean in regards to you,
Speaker 2: your husband, and your daughter that you've already been talking.
Speaker 1: About on a purely logistical basis, It meant childcare, it
Speaker 1: meant aligning our flights. My husband is a journalist who
Speaker 1: covers the exact same reason, and we often high five
Speaker 1: in the hallway and trade suitcases and trade notes on
Speaker 1: our child, and that's how we live our life. So
Speaker 1: he's very understanding, and for the majority of our relationship
Speaker 1: it's been him that has been venturing into war zones
Speaker 1: and so on. So this was a little bit of
Speaker 1: a role reversal. Certainly I did as well, but he
Speaker 1: has done that longer and I've been the one picking
Speaker 1: at the pieces. So it was a really interesting role reversal.
Speaker 2: How did he take it?
Speaker 1: Incredibly wonderfully, completely supportive. It was a family decision. It
Speaker 1: was an incredibly intense decision, especially as the first emergency
Speaker 1: medical team with IRONC to go and medical aid for Palestinians.
Speaker 1: So there was no frame of rec friends, and we
Speaker 1: had a family conversation around it, as we do with
Speaker 1: all of our trips and getting things in order. One
Speaker 1: of the things all references when I first went to
Speaker 1: uh West Bank and Gaza in two thousand and five,
Speaker 1: I had told my parents at that time, and my
Speaker 1: parents are middle class immigrants, refuge my dad's a refugee,
Speaker 1: and they weren't exactly happiest, you know. They've basically said,
Speaker 1: sort of, we have spent our lives dedicated to getting
Speaker 1: you out of those places.
Speaker 2: Why would you willingly go back?
Speaker 1: Exactly? Why would you willingly go back? And so that
Speaker 1: placed the burden on me and I carry that with me.
Speaker 1: So what that means is having a focal point of contact,
Speaker 1: making sure that we are connected enough that we if
Speaker 1: something were to happen, that we would be able to
Speaker 1: call on those friends and be able to lean on them.
Speaker 1: All bets are off for Gaza, though, so we can.
Speaker 1: In terms of the preparation I did, it was also
Speaker 1: a mental space preppery telling my daughter that this is
Speaker 1: different and you don't have to tell kids. They kind
Speaker 1: of get the vibe.
Speaker 2: And what did she say?
Speaker 1: Well, she asked why, and I said, because it's the
Speaker 1: right thing to do and I am going to be
Speaker 1: trying to help babies that are sick. And she said, okay,
Speaker 1: well that makes sense that I understand that. I think
Speaker 1: the hug at the end she understood very well that
Speaker 1: it was a very different type of leaving. And that
Speaker 1: was some of the preparation that we did together.
Speaker 2: As you fly from Brussels to Cairo and then drive
Speaker 2: from Cairo to Gaza with all of this baggage, a
Speaker 2: professional obligation, a mother, a wife, knowing that you're there
Speaker 2: to do the work you've been called to do that
Speaker 2: you feel summoned to do with your colleagues, how are
Speaker 2: you processing that in the first forty eight hours.
Speaker 1: I believe I was so tunnel visioned that I'm quite
Speaker 1: unsure whether I even have processed it at this point.
Speaker 1: Just focus on every task that you have to get
Speaker 1: done in order to be able to complete the mission
Speaker 1: and be successful in some ways. And if I'm being honest,
Speaker 1: I imagine I will have to process that and some
Speaker 1: of those decisions that were made and interrogate myself further
Speaker 1: around what criteria you know I would use around those decisions.
Speaker 1: I do know that I thought around you know, if I,
Speaker 1: if I didn't survive or something were to happen to me,
Speaker 1: is that I will have shown my daughter that it
Speaker 1: was a decision worth making in this context, that I
Speaker 1: had the power to be able to do something, and
Speaker 1: so I felt as if I should be doing it.
Speaker 2: You mentioned working in the region in two thousand and five,
Speaker 2: in twenty fifteen, and then again as recently as early
Speaker 2: January of this year. When you land in Gaza this
Speaker 2: time around, what do you notice about it in contrast
Speaker 2: to your past experiences? What stood out to you?
Speaker 1: So I have worked in refugee rescue boats off the
Speaker 1: coast of Libya. I have worked in Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Egypt,
Speaker 1: Lebanon during the blast and several other areas of conflict
Speaker 1: and post conflict. Nothing could have prepared me for what
Speaker 1: I saw in Gaza. Even outside of the hospital, the
Speaker 1: drive from Rafa border to our guesthouse should not have
Speaker 1: taken very long. It was maybe seven or eight kilometers
Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, it took three hours because that
Speaker 1: or two and a half to three hours. That road
Speaker 1: was completely full of forcibly displaced people coming the other way.
Speaker 1: So we were driving north, they were trying to get south,
Speaker 1: and it looked as if it was a sea of
Speaker 1: human tragedy passing us. Children, families, all their worldly possessions
Speaker 1: packed into vans or on top of donkeys, vans lucky
Speaker 1: because fuel is such a precious commodity, Pets, kids nodding
Speaker 1: off while they're breastfeeding. Just everybody sort of packed into
Speaker 1: these spaces, living on top of one another, searching for shelter, evacuating,
Speaker 1: probably not the first time they've evacuated, as I would
Speaker 1: later find out. And that road was completely congested, and
Speaker 1: I had not seen something like that in terms of
Speaker 1: population density. And then there were people walking barefoot looking
Speaker 1: for wood, looking for garbage bags to use a shelter,
Speaker 1: tense cities that every day would also pop up even
Speaker 1: more and more people again living on top of one another.
Speaker 1: And that's even before I went to the hospital itself.
Speaker 2: You were stationed at al Axa Hospital. This is a
Speaker 2: hospital in central Gaza. You're working in partnership with doctors
Speaker 2: from MAP, the Medical Aid for Palestinians. Upon arriving at
Speaker 2: the hospital, you described it as quote a semifunction facility.
Speaker 2: What does semi functional actually look like on that first day.
Speaker 1: Well, the reason I say semi functional is because staff
Speaker 1: were mostly still intermittently able to show up, supplies were
Speaker 1: sometimes available but were rationed, and patients were being able
Speaker 1: to be seen, although every day was a different mass casualty,
Speaker 1: and every day more and more people, not just patients,
Speaker 1: but people were filtering into the hospital for a safe haven.
Speaker 1: So the parts that we're working is that if it
Speaker 1: was somewhat staffed, had some supplies which were still being rationed,
Speaker 1: patients were being seen, It's still not something that in
Speaker 1: any other context would have been what I would label
Speaker 1: as adequate proper care. But it's working, it's providing its function.
Speaker 1: As the week went on, it became less and less
Speaker 1: functional because doctors and healthcare workers there had been displaced
Speaker 1: were unable to come to work. Communications were patchy, if anything,
Speaker 1: and you didn't know who would come up to work
Speaker 1: that day or not. There was one day that none
Speaker 1: of the doctors were able to come because they were
Speaker 1: all looking for shelter, food, or fuel. And what happened
Speaker 1: is that there's a colossal bravery amongst those physicians because
Speaker 1: they are also in general afraid of detainment, not just
Speaker 1: the risk of their lives to coming to the hospital,
Speaker 1: but any of the reprisals that have happened against health
Speaker 1: care staff. And they continue to show up, and they
Speaker 1: continue to see patients, and they continue to pronounce their
Speaker 1: colleagues and friends and family dead and then continue to
Speaker 1: see their patients. And so just watching them was a
Speaker 1: source of great strength for me.
Speaker 2: Now, you and your colleagues would work between nine am
Speaker 2: and three pm during specific daylight hours. Why were you
Speaker 2: permitted to only work in those six hour blocks?
Speaker 1: That was more of a safety and security decision because
Speaker 1: of daylight hours, and also because the route that we
Speaker 1: would take from our guest house to the hospital had
Speaker 1: to be deconflicted is what we call it with Israeli authorities.
Speaker 2: And what is deconflicted mean?
Speaker 1: That's a good question. Within twenty four hours of movement
Speaker 1: from our guest house, because of the volatility of the
Speaker 1: security situation, we would have to be in contact with
Speaker 1: Israeli authorities and it's not myself as someone on our team,
Speaker 1: and ensure that our route to the hospital is deconflicted,
Speaker 1: which means that it should not be we should not
Speaker 1: be at threat of bombardment during that time. Now there's
Speaker 1: a lot of questions around what that means. Sometimes it's
Speaker 1: not necessarily coordinated between the airstrikes and the ground invasions
Speaker 1: or the Navy. So there's three different bodies of military
Speaker 1: that are acting in this space. So you might be
Speaker 1: deconflicted by air, but there's no guarantee you'd be deconflicted
Speaker 1: by ground. Additionally, if there's a target that is next
Speaker 1: to you, it means that that could be attacked and
Speaker 1: you would still sustain bomb blast injury, death, or disability
Speaker 1: because they were right next to you and the bomb
Speaker 1: goes off next to you, and even though you are deconflicted,
Speaker 1: that person is not, So you still have a very
Speaker 1: high risk or it's still very dangerous, and so we
Speaker 1: are limited in humanitarian access by that system.
Speaker 2: In the time that you are there working, you would
Speaker 2: tape voice notes on your iPhone on that first day.
Speaker 2: What did you tape?
Speaker 1: I believe I mentioned that within the first few hours
Speaker 1: of us arriving to aluxa hospital that I treated about
Speaker 1: a one year old boy whose right arm and right
Speaker 1: leg had been blown off by bombardment. He still had
Speaker 1: a bloody diaper on, but no leg beneath, and the
Speaker 1: flesh was still hanging off of his leg. I treated
Speaker 1: him on the ground. There were no beds or stretchers available.
Speaker 1: Next to him was a man who was taking his
Speaker 1: agonal last breath and had been actively dying for the
Speaker 1: last twenty four hours, and there were flies already on
Speaker 1: him one woman in the meantime. It was brought in
Speaker 1: and was declared dead on arrival. And meanwhile, my one
Speaker 1: year old patient was bleeding into his chest cavity something
Speaker 1: we call hemothorax. He needed a pediatric chest tube, he
Speaker 1: needed a pediatric blood pressure cuff. He needed a lot
Speaker 1: of care. And mind you, this would have been a
Speaker 1: case in the US that would never have seen in
Speaker 1: the er. It would have been what we call a
Speaker 1: stat oar case. They just take him up to the
Speaker 1: operating room. But because of the complete onslaught of patients
Speaker 1: coming in that was unavailable to us, so little available
Speaker 1: in stock, it was complete chaos. No morphine had been
Speaker 1: given in the total panic, there was no hand soap,
Speaker 1: there was no disinfectant. The orthopedic surgeon did come stop
Speaker 1: the hemorrhaging, bandaged his stumps and said I'm sorry, but
Speaker 1: we can't take him to the OAR right now. And
Speaker 1: I was completely taken it back, and I said, well why,
Speaker 1: and he said, there's too many other more life threatening
Speaker 1: cases that need those operating theaters right now. And then
Speaker 1: I thought to myself, what on earth could possibly be
Speaker 1: more pressing than a one year old with no hand,
Speaker 1: no leg, who's going to asphyxiate on his own blood.
Speaker 1: And I think I give that example because I do
Speaker 1: think it's a microcosm of how completely cataclysmic this situation is.
Speaker 2: You know, I, I too, am trying to imagine what
Speaker 2: or who could be more pressing than a child without
Speaker 2: a hand a leg that's choking on their own blood.
Speaker 2: And then I'm thinking, like, actually, we don't need to imagine,
Speaker 2: because imagining is too theoretical, because this is very much
Speaker 2: a situation in which there was someone deemed more pressing
Speaker 2: than that child. And so I'm wondering to kind of
Speaker 2: illustrate this moment in your experience. Do you remember which
Speaker 2: patient that was like that patient that did go into
Speaker 2: the operating room, who was that what was happening to them?
Speaker 1: I don't have that information, and there's a lot of
Speaker 1: gaps in information because of the chaotic nature of things.
Speaker 1: What I can say clinically, is a physician, what it
Speaker 1: could have been is that someone who was actively dying
Speaker 1: required emergency surgery, whereas in this case, one might be
Speaker 1: able to argue that we could triage, stop the bleeding
Speaker 1: and take him in a couple of hours because you
Speaker 1: wasn't actively dying.
Speaker 2: So you're working in an environment where you and your
Speaker 2: colleagues have to make quick decisions about who is actively
Speaker 2: dying and who is slowly dying, which is a distinction.
Speaker 2: I don't even know what to do with that. You
Speaker 2: told the New Yorker that you try and save every
Speaker 2: single one, but here, if you don't have the resources,
Speaker 2: the medicine, the staffing, then you have to triage in
Speaker 2: a way that prioritizes people who are most likely to
Speaker 2: live and make a good, solid recovery. And I want
Speaker 2: to understand that process a little bit. How did you
Speaker 2: and your colleagues make those assessments? Is there a rubric
Speaker 2: you're following. Are there certain indicators that suggest one patient
Speaker 2: is more likely to recover than another patient? And how
Speaker 2: quickly did you have to make those decisions that are
Speaker 2: literally life or death.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this war changed the calculus of triage completely and
Speaker 1: the spectrum on which we would and would not intervene.
Speaker 1: Of course, you want to save every single patient, then
Speaker 1: you have to recalculate and think what does that mean
Speaker 1: for the patient If we save them and they have
Speaker 1: no access later to physical therapy, occupational therapy, mental health care,
Speaker 1: educational services, any food, how are they going to survive?
Speaker 1: And I'll be honest is that I learned from my
Speaker 1: Palestinian colleagues who had been doing this a lot longer
Speaker 1: and had a lot more experience, and they would be
Speaker 1: the one to inform us to say this case is
Speaker 1: the word they would use is hopeless and this one
Speaker 1: will work on. And I take their lead and their
Speaker 1: steer on that completely because they know that.
Speaker 2: Explain how they explain their calculus to you.
Speaker 1: I think also it was around resources that were available.
Speaker 1: So if we did not have a ner in house,
Speaker 1: then we could not justify working on a patient that
Speaker 1: needed neurosurgery. Without a neurosurgeon, what are we doing working
Speaker 1: on this patient in house? Or maybe they couldn't get
Speaker 1: there that day because they themselves were displaced, So working
Speaker 1: on a day to day basis with a changing sense
Speaker 1: of resources, and they knew what they had and how
Speaker 1: we could help patients. So one of the things I
Speaker 1: did find comfort in sometimes and until our morphine ran out,
Speaker 1: was to be able to provide some modicum of dignity
Speaker 1: and pain relief. When you are out of morphine, it
Speaker 1: becomes cruel otherwise to watch that unfold, and you just
Speaker 1: get a sense of like a very grotesque disregard for
Speaker 1: life in terms of dignified death in an emergency room,
Speaker 1: on the floor of God's in an emergency.
Speaker 2: Room, what does a non dignified death look like?
Speaker 1: It looks like being on the floor with your arm
Speaker 1: or leg being blown off, or having such extensive burns
Speaker 1: over your body that it is charred, and the entire
Speaker 1: emergency room fills with the smell of burnt flesh. You
Speaker 1: don't know where your family is, you don't know if
Speaker 1: they're dead or alive. You have no pain control. There
Speaker 1: was a moment that my colleague in our emergency room
Speaker 1: had to say whose body part is that? It was
Speaker 1: a leg with a boot on that was separated, and
Speaker 1: had to say, don't take that outside. I don't want
Speaker 1: children seeing that. And we didn't even know whose it
Speaker 1: was because that's the level of total devastation. And then
Speaker 1: not having access to pain medication frankly, and you know,
Speaker 1: we tried everything from anti anxiety meds, whatever we had,
Speaker 1: we tried.
Speaker 2: In multiple interviews, you said, as a pediatrician, I expected
Speaker 2: to not be particularly useful. Why is that.
Speaker 1: I expect that in a war that the rules of
Speaker 1: engagement applies, and that means protection of hospitals, protection of civilians,
Speaker 1: and as much protection as possible of children. The scale
Speaker 1: and the proportionality of children that I was seeing is
Speaker 1: unlike any other conflict I have been in. It was staggering.
Speaker 1: I didn't expect to see that many children. I think
Speaker 1: in one of my voice notes, I noted within my
Speaker 1: line of sight there were six children that needed urgent
Speaker 1: or emergent attention. In one case where we had our
Speaker 1: code room, which is where you actively resulcitate people from
Speaker 1: the brink of death. Basically four out of five of
Speaker 1: our patients were kids under the age of thirteen.
Speaker 2: That is appalling, and in your experience of doing this
Speaker 2: work for twenty years, a complete aberration.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, at the.
Speaker 2: End of your two weeks, was the hospital still semi functional.
Speaker 1: Absolutely not. Staff members were dwindling, people were forcibly evacuated
Speaker 1: and they were Our staff were watching bombs and bullets
Speaker 1: just to come to work every day, less morphine, every day,
Speaker 1: less oxygen and until finally no gauz, no morphine. People
Speaker 1: were recognizing me as a foreigner and asking cease fire please.
Speaker 1: As I walked around them. I would be nursing new
Speaker 1: mothers on breastfeeding and there would be bombs going, coming
Speaker 1: closer and closer, and smoke rising into the air. It
Speaker 1: was very surreal. Every day it would get closer. The
Speaker 1: forces were honing in on our hospital.
Speaker 2: How could you tell that? What were the indicators of that?
Speaker 1: Staff would tell us okay that one. And also having
Speaker 1: been in conflict, you have the grim skill set of
Speaker 1: identifying a little bit. By the end, we're oh, airstrike,
Speaker 1: Oh no, that's gunfire. Nope, that sounds like navy, I
Speaker 1: mean you. And because there was a coastal road that
Speaker 1: we would take and we were quite close there. You
Speaker 1: do acquire this bizarre skill set. And at one point
Speaker 1: it was around four hundred meters away, and then one
Speaker 1: hundred meters away, and then a bullet went through the ICU.
Speaker 1: The following day, these really military dropped leaflets in the
Speaker 1: surrounding areas indicating it was quote unquote a red area,
Speaker 1: and so, given the history of attacks on medical staff
Speaker 1: and hospitals, we had no choice but to not continue
Speaker 1: our work there, and it had been deemed unsafe for us.
Speaker 2: What did the leaflet say?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I wasn't there, so our guest house
Speaker 1: was elsewhere, and so we didn't I didn't have purview
Speaker 1: to the leaflet itself. I know that it was dropped
Speaker 1: in that in the surrounding areas, and that there were
Speaker 1: thousands of people in those areas because we would drive
Speaker 1: there every day and see new, new and more shelters
Speaker 1: and tents pop up. So it was not just the hospital,
Speaker 1: but it was other areas, and people began evacuating. And
Speaker 1: I still think around, what does that mean if you're
Speaker 1: an actual patient in that hospital, right, and you're the
Speaker 1: kid that I had seen that had was so badly
Speaker 1: burnt that his eyes were totally swollen, couldn't open his eyes,
Speaker 1: couldn't open his mouth to eat. Essentially, he's blind. How
Speaker 1: is he making his way out of the hospital. My
Speaker 1: baby's in the NICU incubators? How are they getting out?
Speaker 1: And I don't have answers for you because I don't
Speaker 1: have any follow up on what happened to those patients.
Speaker 2: You have no answers to that. I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't know who got out and who didn't.
Speaker 2: There have been no updates given to you via WhatsApp
Speaker 2: from your colleagues.
Speaker 1: Well from the doctors. I do have that. I have
Speaker 1: information about them and their well being on specific patients.
Speaker 1: It's very hard to track them down. They might be
Speaker 1: able to tell me so and so had a transfer order,
Speaker 1: but I don't know what that means in that context.
Speaker 1: I don't know how an ambulance can take them anywhere.
Speaker 1: I don't know. From the doctors. I'm in touch very regularly,
Speaker 1: and they had tried to come to work several times
Speaker 1: despite and keep in mind they haven't been paid for
Speaker 1: several months, so they're there on a volunteer. There was
Speaker 1: one gentleman that came on one day and he was
Speaker 1: there to see a friend who had been injured, and
Speaker 1: he saw the er and he said, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I can't leave these people, and he just started working
Speaker 1: with us. And then the other ones that I've talked
Speaker 1: to have been displaced and are trying them to find
Speaker 1: shelter or living in unrow shelters or living intents.
Speaker 2: I think this is a key condition worth noting here,
Speaker 2: which is that the safety and the well being of
Speaker 2: your colleagues is so precarious, is such a question mark
Speaker 2: that before they could even talk to or speak to
Speaker 2: the patients, you have to ask if they're okay, if
Speaker 2: they're still alive, if they've been displaced, which they invariably have.
Speaker 2: And you mentioned that in contrast the past conflicts that
Speaker 2: you've attended to and worked in and through that hospitals
Speaker 2: are historically treated as sacred places that should remain untouched
Speaker 2: by combat, and now hospitals and turn the workers in
Speaker 2: them are just another casualty of war. Now Israel and
Speaker 2: US intelligence have made claims that Hamas and another Palestinian
Speaker 2: group fighting Israel, has used hospitals in Gaza as kind
Speaker 2: of makeshift command forces where they hold hostages. This is
Speaker 2: published in the New York Times. This is also reported
Speaker 2: in the Washington Post. But given your experience in the region,
Speaker 2: do you find those claims to be credible.
Speaker 1: I can only speak to what I personally bore witness too.
Speaker 1: I personally did not bear witness to any militant activity
Speaker 1: in the hospital that I was working at.
Speaker 2: Every doctor says that exact same line, Every single doctor
Speaker 2: that's been interviewed in the last two months, whether they've
Speaker 2: appeared in the New York Times or on PBS News
Speaker 2: Hour or NPR or sixty minutes. I think you've done
Speaker 2: all of those. They've all said the exact same line
Speaker 2: you just said. How does everyone have the same response,
Speaker 2: and how come the response differs from these reports so greatly.
Speaker 1: I can't speak to what other people are saying. I'm
Speaker 1: only in touch with my teammates that were there, and
Speaker 1: I don't have any It's not really a big topic
Speaker 1: of conversation because we're just still trying to process everything else.
Speaker 1: So I can't speak to how other doctors are speaking.
Speaker 1: But I mean, there are a lot of things that
Speaker 1: doctors are saying that are the same traumatic amputations, A
Speaker 1: massive amount of children, proportionality of children is high burns
Speaker 1: that they've never seen before. So I imagine that that
Speaker 1: triangulation might actually bolster what we're seeing. I mean, like
Speaker 1: I said, I can only speak to what I see,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to overstep. And that's where I
Speaker 1: personally don't want to overstep.
Speaker 2: And you didn't say anything like that as being described
Speaker 2: in the New York Times.
Speaker 1: I did not see anything that would indicate that.
Speaker 2: No, in recent press you have said that after working
Speaker 2: in Gaza, every single factor of the tapestry of society
Speaker 2: has been affected. Schools, hospitals, food and shelter. He said,
Speaker 2: every factor of the tapestry in real time as you're leaving.
Speaker 2: What did that look like? How did that manifest?
Speaker 1: I give the example of a child that I saw
Speaker 1: around seven years old. Was not a life threatening injury.
Speaker 1: It was a deep lacerations to his legs and required stitching.
Speaker 1: It's something I, as a pediatrician, would use ketamine for.
Speaker 1: Ketemine is an excellent drug, and pediatrics we use it
Speaker 1: for procedures. It provides pain management, but it also allows
Speaker 1: the patient to not remember the procedure. So amnesiac and
Speaker 1: pain management we didn't have any, So I tried to
Speaker 1: distract the seven year old with whatever pediatric tools I
Speaker 1: have that we were taught in training, some of them
Speaker 1: are bubbles or light flashers. I didn't have my bubbles
Speaker 1: with me that day, but I had something that typically
Speaker 1: would have worked didn't work for him. He was still
Speaker 1: screaming in agony. And then I started to do what
Speaker 1: a distraction technique that we've been taught. Children are very
Speaker 1: easily distractable and actually can withstand some degree of pain
Speaker 1: from with distraction. But every single question I might ask
Speaker 1: this kid was a total landmine. If I ask him
Speaker 1: the things that I would ask a kid in the US.
Speaker 1: What's your favorite subject at school? He hasn't been in
Speaker 1: school in three months. Are he closer to her mom
Speaker 1: or dad? Or he was bought in by an aunt
Speaker 1: or uncle so his parents are likely dead. What's your
Speaker 1: favorite food? He I don't know the last time that
Speaker 1: this child would have seen or eaten food. And it
Speaker 1: showed me exactly what you said is that every single
Speaker 1: facet of their society has been impacted or dismantled from
Speaker 1: the ground up. And to get back to the targeting
Speaker 1: of hospitals, because you're right to hold space for that,
Speaker 1: it should offend every ounce of civility in all of us,
Speaker 1: that hospitals would ever be targeted. And it's deeply appalling
Speaker 1: because it ties my hands to be able to save lives.
Speaker 1: It ties palestinine doctor's hands and humanitarians from providing critical aid.
Speaker 1: I just always have thought that I would be safe
Speaker 1: in a hospital. It's never occurred to me that that
Speaker 1: I would feel more in danger. That's wild.
Speaker 2: How does it feel that you're wrong about that?
Speaker 1: And that's why I'm speaking to you to try and
Speaker 1: change some of that. That's why I'm speaking to media
Speaker 1: and trying to do advocacy because it's all I can do,
Speaker 1: because the heart of this is not a humanitarian solution.
Speaker 1: It's a political solution, and we're playing this sort of
Speaker 1: mental gymnastics around trying to get around how can we
Speaker 1: provide aid? How many trucks and how many? And it's
Speaker 1: quite easy. Stop the war, it's not that hard.
Speaker 2: After the break. More from doctor Sema Jelati, and you
Speaker 2: have been doing press, and I think in doing so,
Speaker 2: you're reelaying your experience as an example of this ongoing catastrophe,
Speaker 2: this healthcare crisis. And you're someone who's long been thinking
Speaker 2: about the ways in which doctors communicate to the media.
Speaker 2: You even designed and taught a university course in Istanbul
Speaker 2: that helped doctors become quote stronger political advocates for their patients. Now,
Speaker 2: do you think it is essential that people on the
Speaker 2: front lines become political advocates for the communities they are
Speaker 2: helping day to day.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's essential. I think it's a skill
Speaker 1: set that we need to to bring out and lean
Speaker 1: into if we're so inclined. I think there are people
Speaker 1: that are able to do that and hold space for it,
Speaker 1: and there's roles that everybody is playing in their own way.
Speaker 1: It doesn't all have to be advocacy and communications. It
Speaker 1: can be in other realms. I do think those people
Speaker 1: that are inclined and are good at it, that we
Speaker 1: can hone our skills better. And there's a tendency both
Speaker 1: in medicine and sometimes in the aid world to shy
Speaker 1: away from media or to not partake because of distrust
Speaker 1: or not being able to communicate effectively, whatever that is.
Speaker 1: And I would argue that there used to be saying,
Speaker 1: I guess Pacific a radio where I used to volunteer,
Speaker 1: don't hate the media, be the media something of that nature,
Speaker 1: like work with our colleagues because there are no foreign
Speaker 1: journalists there, so there is a sense of relying on
Speaker 1: eyewitness testimony. It's really important to bear witness, whether that
Speaker 1: comes in the media or whether they're doing it in
Speaker 1: other spaces and their communities. That I do think is
Speaker 1: important in a situation like this.
Speaker 2: What about the way in which healthcare officials communicated to
Speaker 2: the press bothered you enough to design and teach a
Speaker 2: class on the subject. No one creates a course and
Speaker 2: then teaches people because they think that's going.
Speaker 1: Great, Absolutely right. I mean, let's be honest. Donters sometimes
Speaker 1: aren't the best communicators. There's a lot of jargon we use,
Speaker 1: even in the bedside manner. I have heard some horrific stories.
Speaker 1: I also did medical evacuation flights for critically ill children.
Speaker 1: It's so important and it's such an honor and a
Speaker 1: privilege to be engaged in that space where you are
Speaker 1: crafting the memory for the parent of a child who
Speaker 1: is dying. It is so important to be able to
Speaker 1: speak out to the conditions that that is not happening
Speaker 1: in a vacuum. I practiced in Texas, so a lot
Speaker 1: of immigrant patients saw did flights from border towns. It's
Speaker 1: not happening in a vacuum. Healthcare doesn't happen alone. It
Speaker 1: happens because of the surrounding politics around it. And if
Speaker 1: we can't express how we are constrained in those environments,
Speaker 1: then our patients that are not going to have good outcomes.
Speaker 1: What would the world look like if we had doctors
Speaker 1: that could communicate the struggles of the immigrants across the
Speaker 1: border and their healthcare. What would bioterrorism look like? What
Speaker 1: would vaccination rates in the US look like if we
Speaker 1: had managed that better? And that's where I come from.
Speaker 1: So it's less a criticism of doctors. It's more like,
Speaker 1: how can we improve outcomes for our patients so we're
Speaker 1: communicating to them better.
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about that. We're at a point here
Speaker 2: where when nearly thirty thousand Palestinians have been killed, seventy
Speaker 2: percent of whom being either women or children. And while
Speaker 2: there's warfare there, there's also been a battle waged in
Speaker 2: the press that we've been talking about publications on the left,
Speaker 2: right and center, mainstream and independent that have taken stories
Speaker 2: like yours intimate accounts of what's happening and have used
Speaker 2: them for their own political agenda. So, because of this
Speaker 2: highly divided media landscape, how are you thinking about your
Speaker 2: role in this moment? How do we tell these stories
Speaker 2: in ways that don't further divide and inflame.
Speaker 1: I take the responsibility of being a physician very seriously.
Speaker 1: We are databased, we are science based, and that's why
Speaker 1: part of what I say is I can only speak
Speaker 1: to what I see and not make inferences around that,
Speaker 1: and it's my responsibility to speak to that. People are
Speaker 1: going to and have weaponized the voices of physicians, and
Speaker 1: quite frankly, they have done so probably in every conflict.
Speaker 1: But I will also say that as a woman of color,
Speaker 1: it comes with an extra burden and responsibility, which is
Speaker 1: why sometimes I might be more careful around my words
Speaker 1: because I have an understanding that it will be used
Speaker 1: against me, or I might get hate mail or whatever
Speaker 1: that is. I try to mitigate against it. It doesn't
Speaker 1: stop that from happening, but it also means that I
Speaker 1: still have the responsibility to speak up. It should reinforce
Speaker 1: the notion that this is important enough to speak up
Speaker 1: If people are willing to co opt to my message.
Speaker 1: This is the largest and most in the bloodiest war
Speaker 1: we've seen, certainly in my lifetime, and so the stakes
Speaker 1: are that much higher.
Speaker 2: The stakes of this moment. I'm thinking about Aaron Bushnell,
Speaker 2: an active duty member in the US Air Force, who
Speaker 2: self emmilated in front of the Israeli embassy this week,
Speaker 2: and seconds before he set himself on fire, he said, quote,
Speaker 2: I will no longer be complicit in genocide. I'm about
Speaker 2: to engage in an extreme, active protest, but comparing it
Speaker 2: to what people have been experiencing in Palestine at the
Speaker 2: hands of their colonizers, it's not extreme at all.
Speaker 1: My god, my god, what more is there to say?
Speaker 1: As I do these media interviews and meet with people
Speaker 1: across in DC and New York and you in he
Speaker 1: has an extraordinary amount of bravery and dedication and commitment
Speaker 1: and we're talking about it. So he has fulfilled what
Speaker 1: he wanted this CNNs and New York Times and hopefully
Speaker 1: others are talking about it. But I hope that his
Speaker 1: message is heard. I hope that he also is not
Speaker 1: weaponized as we are seeing in certain media, and it's
Speaker 1: really important to respect his message. That's extreme, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's something.
Speaker 2: I think What we're circling is that he did what
Speaker 2: he did for very clear reasons, and those reasons in
Speaker 2: the same way that people have misconstrued your story that's
Speaker 2: already happened with Aaron Bushnell. You mentioned the New York Times.
Speaker 2: Here's the headline for the article man dies after setting
Speaker 2: himself on fire outside of Israeli embassy in Washington. Air
Speaker 2: Force says CNN and Reuter's ran the headline US airmen
Speaker 2: sets himself on fire outside of Israeli embassy in Washington.
Speaker 2: An article about Bushnell published by NPR stated as of
Speaker 2: Monday morning, NPR was not able to independently verify the
Speaker 2: man's motives. I mean, I'm not Peter Falk. This isn't
Speaker 2: an episode of Colombo. But it is unsettling that, as
Speaker 2: we enter month six of this conflict, as thirty thousand
Speaker 2: Palestinians are dead, as the remaining hostages that Hamas are
Speaker 2: harboring have not been returned, as families have been displayed
Speaker 2: irrevocably altered. It's unsettling that some of our largest, most
Speaker 2: respected and trusted institutions can't just say it. They can't
Speaker 2: just say what Aaron's protests bet can't or won't. Well
Speaker 2: they haven't. Well, that's right, they've obfuscated, They've obscured the meaning,
Speaker 2: the motives. And I'm wondering does that erasure embolden you
Speaker 2: to keep telling these stories or does some party you
Speaker 2: find it really fucking depressing and deflating.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really demoralizing. How much more can one speak
Speaker 1: to this? What other stories do you need? How much
Speaker 1: do Palestinians have to put their pain on display for
Speaker 1: someone to tap into their empathy? And is that okay?
Speaker 4: Is that?
Speaker 1: Is that what we're asking of people now? To show
Speaker 1: the dead bodies and the idea that you know we
Speaker 1: call for civility amid active violence. That is a tool
Speaker 1: of oppression. It's a distraction, you know, the obfuscation you said,
Speaker 1: that's the exact right word, because we know everyone knows,
Speaker 1: and why aren't we saying it out loud. There's an
Speaker 1: amazing MLK quote that I'm totally going to Butcher. I've
Speaker 1: almost come to the conclusion that the stumbling block in
Speaker 1: freedom is not the ku klux klanner, but it's the
Speaker 1: white moderate who is more dedicated to order than to justice.
Speaker 1: And that's what we're seeing some dedication to order rather
Speaker 1: than to real justice.
Speaker 2: It was in his letter from the Birmingham jail, right.
Speaker 2: You got the quote pretty much exactly right, by the way,
Speaker 2: that'll be first.
Speaker 1: But I lean on it, you know why, probably because
Speaker 1: I've been reflecting, Sam, I've been reflecting on why is
Speaker 1: this happening? And is this new? Or is this something
Speaker 1: that oppressed people have gone through through the eons of history,
Speaker 1: And it seems like it's not new. It's been happening.
Speaker 2: Even reflecting on all of it, the macro and the micro,
Speaker 2: I mean, the politics and the personal. Because you yourself have
Speaker 2: continued to wade into this field of work to talk
Speaker 2: to the media about your experiences, I have to ask.
Speaker 2: President Biden has said that come next week he hopes
Speaker 2: that there is a temporary ceasefire. Hamas Bery quickly responded
Speaker 2: and said there's no indication based on talks that they've
Speaker 2: had that it would end as early as next week,
Speaker 2: or at least temporarily end. John Hopkins has just put
Speaker 2: out a study that has documented the damage already done
Speaker 2: that is irrevocably set in motion as a result in
Speaker 2: the last one hundred and forty something days. They've calculated
Speaker 2: the death toll. Even if there is a ceasefire starting
Speaker 2: Monday morning, the numbers are staggering. Everyone to read that report.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you have looked at that. If you're asked
Speaker 2: to return to Gaza, if you're permitted to return, would
Speaker 2: you go back?
Speaker 1: Yes? I would. It would have to be a family decision.
Speaker 1: They would go through the same processes of calculations around it.
Speaker 1: And the reason I say it with such conviction is
Speaker 1: because I've worked in post conflict Bosnia and I saw
Speaker 1: what happened when people didn't speak up, and I saw
Speaker 1: what happened when people left them to left people to
Speaker 1: do real evil, and I would never want to be
Speaker 1: complicit in any of that. I've met with survivors of
Speaker 1: genocide from Bosnia and it sticks with me. It also
Speaker 1: means something when it's some One of the doctors said
Speaker 1: that they felt really forgotten by the outside world, and
Speaker 1: us simply being there was a reminder to them of
Speaker 1: some solidarity, and I thought that was really poignant. There
Speaker 1: was one scene that we were in the doctor's room
Speaker 1: and there was a nurse sobbing quietly in the corner,
Speaker 1: and I didn't know what to do. Should we leave
Speaker 1: and it turned out that he had just pronounced a
Speaker 1: colleague dead and said, and I said, should we leave
Speaker 1: out of respect for your grief? He said, no, Can
Speaker 1: you just see my patience for me please while I grieve.
Speaker 1: That's something. Thus the reasons to go back so that
Speaker 1: they know we're there, so that they're not forgotten.
Speaker 2: And you would explain this mission and your return there
Speaker 2: to your daughter.
Speaker 1: How it's the right thing to do. I'm in a
Speaker 1: position of power. They have children just like you, and
Speaker 1: they're just as worthy of dignity, care, music, art and
Speaker 1: poetry and healthcare and education as you are. And children
Speaker 1: learn by what you show them, not what you tell them.
Speaker 1: And it's important to live a life of integrity where
Speaker 1: your words match your actions. I'm not saying necessarily I'll
Speaker 1: go back immediately or without thought. I don't believe in
Speaker 1: being reckless. I don't believe in being reckless. I believe
Speaker 1: in thoughtful deliberation around it. And if I had the
Speaker 1: chance that I'm saying yes, under the right circumstances, I
Speaker 1: would want to go because you don't leave people. You
Speaker 1: don't leave those people to suffer as they are suffering.
Speaker 1: I mean, here's the other thing is people ask did
Speaker 1: you make a difference? My answer around that is it
Speaker 1: made a difference to me and the kid that I
Speaker 1: was seeing, and the babies that I held, and the mom.
Speaker 1: To the mother whose knees buckled when I told her
Speaker 1: that her child was no longer alive, that I was
Speaker 1: there in that moment to be able to comfort her,
Speaker 1: To the man who died with nothing more than my
Speaker 1: hand in his hand and me pressing water onto his
Speaker 1: lips on the floor of a Gosa emergency room. Those
Speaker 1: are the moments that make a difference to people, and
Speaker 1: it is only an honor, the honor of my career
Speaker 1: to be able to help them at their time of need.
Speaker 2: And those are the moments in your case that make
Speaker 2: a life, I think, and a remarkable one, I should say.
Speaker 2: I guess the last thing I have for you is
Speaker 2: you've been fairly active on social media, and I've noticed
Speaker 2: you keep posting at least a couple of times this
Speaker 2: quote from I think Audre lord is that right? And
Speaker 2: I was hoping if I I was wondering if you
Speaker 2: would be open to reading that quote for us as
Speaker 2: we as we leave.
Speaker 1: To read Audre lord On, I mean, what an honor.
Speaker 1: Are you kidding? I'm honest, say no to that. Those
Speaker 1: are the people you get strength from, these people that
Speaker 1: have seen it all and have been in the fight
Speaker 1: and struggling, and how to they carry on? And so
Speaker 1: I aspire to this level of eloquence, thank God. And
Speaker 1: the speaking will get easier and easier, and you will
Speaker 1: lose some friends and lovers and realize you don't miss them,
Speaker 1: and new ones will find you and cherish you. And
Speaker 1: at last you'll know with surpassing certainty that only one
Speaker 1: thing is more frightening than speaking your truth, and that
Speaker 1: is not speaking Audre Lord?
Speaker 2: Where does that land with you? Today?
Speaker 1: Keep getting in good trouble?
Speaker 2: Now we're doing, John Lewis, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, this is where this is really. We're standing on
Speaker 1: the shoulders. We're standing on the shoulders of these people.
Speaker 1: And I would not be able to do anything without
Speaker 1: people like James Baldwin, Audre Lord, Tony Morrison. And it's
Speaker 1: no coincidence that I owe a massive debt of gratitude
Speaker 1: to Black Americans in this country who have paved that path.
Speaker 1: And I should acknowledge.
Speaker 2: That, I think we should ignow that we owe a
Speaker 2: massive amount of gratitude to you and all your colleagues
Speaker 2: that have continued risking their lives knowing damn well that
Speaker 2: there's a real chance they don't come home and should
Speaker 2: you go back, and it sounds like there's a chance
Speaker 2: to do. Yeah. I wish you the the well being
Speaker 2: and safety that every single person you've worked on deserves.
Speaker 2: And so that's all I got.
Speaker 1: Wow, thank you. I don't know how to respond, but
Speaker 1: thank you. I think what I can tell you is
Speaker 1: that's fair.
Speaker 2: I did say a lot.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, I would say that I want to
Speaker 1: thank you, of course for your research and your team's
Speaker 1: research and all of that, because this was made more
Speaker 1: This was one of the best interviews I've ever encountered
Speaker 1: in my career in talking to media, and you should
Speaker 1: be proud. And this I'll even have sort of on
Speaker 1: the record, but I would say, thank you for not
Speaker 1: making me participate in the mental acrobatics of making my
Speaker 1: emotions palatable. You allowed for my emotions to be raw,
Speaker 1: whereas usually it has to be cloaked, and respectability, politics
Speaker 1: and tone policing, all of those and I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: As you noted here at talk is it. We are
Speaker 2: long past respectable, so don't worry about that at all.
Speaker 1: Awesome having to be associated with it.
Speaker 2: Who would have thought we would end an episode about
Speaker 2: this subject with a joke, But nonetheless, I really do
Speaker 2: thank you and thank you for the kind words. Godspeed.
Speaker 1: Likewise, right back at you.
Speaker 2: Doctor Semaglani.
Speaker 4: Take care, take care.
Speaker 2: And that's our show. If you enjoyed today's episode, be
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Speaker 2: every Sunday. I want to give a special thanks this
Speaker 2: week to James Susman at the IRC, Shawn Michaels, our
Speaker 2: engineer out of Houston, and our guests today doctor Sima Jelani,
Speaker 2: to support her work along with other rescue efforts in Palestine.
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