Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining me for session three point fifty of the
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our
Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors. In the past
Speaker 1: few years, you may have heard about companies rolling back
Speaker 1: their promise DEI initiatives, or promoting black women to leadership
Speaker 1: positions during public controversy without offering them the proper support.
Speaker 1: If you're a black woman in corporate who has been
Speaker 1: disturbed by these trends, you're not alone. Joining me today
Speaker 1: to help break down these patterns, as well as offer
Speaker 1: some tips for black women navigating the corporate Ladder is
Speaker 1: leadership advisor and keynote speaker. Doctor Yazmin Mumby. Doctor Mumby
Speaker 1: is the founder of the Ringgold, a firm that has
Speaker 1: helped some of the most impactful organizations in the world,
Speaker 1: including the ACOUU and Harvard Radcliffe Institute, achieved their mission
Speaker 1: critical organizational ambitions. Doctor Mumby weaves in her framework the
Speaker 1: easeful Leader for high performing leaders who are looking to
Speaker 1: reclaim their time, lead with ease and thrive in any environment.
Speaker 1: During our conversation, we break down some things to consider
Speaker 1: before accepting a promotion at work, how to advocate for
Speaker 1: yourself when your work begins to outpace your pay level
Speaker 1: or title, and some strategies for navigating microaggressions in the workplace.
Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please
Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag tpg
Speaker 1: in session or join us over in the Sister Circle
Speaker 1: to talk more about the episode. You can join us
Speaker 1: at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, Doctor Mumby.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to join this
Speaker 2: conversation than to be in connection with you.
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, So you are a sustainable leadership advisor. Can
Speaker 1: you tell us what that means and what your typical
Speaker 1: workday looks like.
Speaker 2: Basically, I support ambitious, high achieving, highly productive leaders, most
Speaker 2: of them identify as women, Black women, from burning out.
Speaker 2: I support them with creating the infrastructures, the policy, the guidelines,
Speaker 2: even down to the implementation plan before you hire the person,
Speaker 2: so that you don't have to work beyond your capacity
Speaker 2: so you're not burning out. Started doing this and work life.
Speaker 2: A lot of my professional career has been around balancing
Speaker 2: a portfolio of different projects across multiple sectors, and that
Speaker 2: led itself to me also focusing on my personal life
Speaker 2: and how I can also work to have equilibrium or
Speaker 2: at least interweaving parts of my life so that I'm
Speaker 2: not over indexing in one side and feeling burnt out
Speaker 2: in the other. And that's become even more important now
Speaker 2: that I have a little baby who's now ten months.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, I can imagine nothing like a little one
Speaker 1: that kick you into we having to reimagine some things.
Speaker 2: I'm in another gear. I'm in another gear.
Speaker 1: So much of your work is really focused on creating
Speaker 1: easeful leaders. Can you tell me what does that mean?
Speaker 1: To be an easeful leader.
Speaker 2: It's a leader who is operating from the core of
Speaker 2: their values and not somebody else's. It's a leader who
Speaker 2: takes into consideration for every meaningful, impactful, transformative decision, how
Speaker 2: is this going to impact my team, their wellbeing, their productivity,
Speaker 2: and the culture that we have on staff. A lot
Speaker 2: of folks been, a lot of organizations get caught up
Speaker 2: in production, production, production, and that's because sometimes we have
Speaker 2: external validators who are putting a lot of pressure on
Speaker 2: us to perform, to be visible. And it's our role
Speaker 2: as senior leaders or leaders managing the middle to support
Speaker 2: the adaptive part of our leadership roles, not just the technical,
Speaker 2: to say, hey, I understand what my team is going through.
Speaker 2: This is going on in the context of the world.
Speaker 2: If you aren't considering that or push for us to
Speaker 2: be more whatever, productive, more visible, more everything with less
Speaker 2: resources happens a lot at the time. If we continue
Speaker 2: down this path at this pace, this is what the
Speaker 2: impact will be, not just on our team morale and
Speaker 2: our team structure, but also for the quality of our work.
Speaker 1: So it sounds like you have worked across a variety
Speaker 1: of sectors. It sounds like with lots of different leaders.
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about some of the
Speaker 1: common challenges that have come up in your work with leaders?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I was just leading full day staff retreat on
Speaker 2: the West Coast with a leading advocacy organization nationally, and
Speaker 2: what I'm noticing in working with them, We're all dealing
Speaker 2: with this capacity issue, like do we have capacity to
Speaker 2: take on all these transformative goals and this expansive vision
Speaker 2: that we have for our work right now? And does
Speaker 2: it have to be right now because right now we're
Speaker 2: considering a reality that might stretch us even thinner than
Speaker 2: many of us on the team you already feel. So
Speaker 2: that is the collective theme that I'm noticing across my
Speaker 2: portfolio work currently, and that's going to be the subject
Speaker 2: of my next monthly newsletter around capacity.
Speaker 1: So is it that people are kind of seeing so
Speaker 1: much need that they are trying to like take on
Speaker 1: additional task and like have the organization perform? Is that
Speaker 1: a part of it.
Speaker 2: Sometimes and sometimes it's deep within the psyche of the
Speaker 2: organization where they feel like they have to perform at
Speaker 2: this pace to visibly look like they're being productive. And
Speaker 2: that's a difficult conversation to first have at the leadership level,
Speaker 2: noticing what has been their contribution to this reality, noticing
Speaker 2: the impact it's had on the rest of the direct reports,
Speaker 2: and then having the conversation with the board and or
Speaker 2: funder that might be pressing really hard on the gas
Speaker 2: And I understand that, you know, the macro also sometimes
Speaker 2: reflects the micro. So what's going on in vial with
Speaker 2: each leader where they feel like they have to contribute
Speaker 2: to this pace? And that's where my individual coaching really
Speaker 2: kicks in and where we see some changes because leadership
Speaker 2: is an extension of who you are and yourself in
Speaker 2: the way it's landing on others. And if we don't
Speaker 2: really on earth what's going on there through your leadership actions,
Speaker 2: you just going to be having a lot of people
Speaker 2: being impacted by you not doing the work and influencing
Speaker 2: your own practices of self compassion and support.
Speaker 1: So I'm wondering, doctor Mombi, how do companies understand whether
Speaker 1: they're following their values or whether they're trying to like
Speaker 1: hitch to some arbitrary kind of sense of value.
Speaker 2: Oh, that shows up in the numbers people are dropping,
Speaker 2: they're leaving. It shows up in their retention, it shows
Speaker 2: up in their staff. Lack of engagement shows up in
Speaker 2: not just exit interviews, but sometimes anonymous reviews. So glassdoor.
Speaker 2: It shows up when something has happened in the organization
Speaker 2: and it's highly visible and delicate, and folks need someone
Speaker 2: to come in and support them. And that's how I
Speaker 2: typically get connected to people because it's through word of mouth.
Speaker 2: They're like, yes, me and her team can come in
Speaker 2: here and help us objectively figure out the best path
Speaker 2: forward and also to support people through this transition and
Speaker 2: change management. I got to say a lot of that
Speaker 2: effort and work comes from my comfort being in the
Speaker 2: middle of what can be ambiguous and highly anxiety provoking
Speaker 2: for many leaders in the midst of organizational change and shifts.
Speaker 2: And that grounding really comes from my practice for myself
Speaker 2: of meditation and reflection and journaling and writing, and and
Speaker 2: it also helps that I was a teacher and a
Speaker 2: community organizer, and I'm the oldest of four, so I'm
Speaker 2: used to finding solutions.
Speaker 1: You got a lot of experience in a lot of
Speaker 1: different ways to do this work. It sounds.
Speaker 2: We all do.
Speaker 1: We all do So you mentioned that a majority of
Speaker 1: the clients that you work with are often black women,
Speaker 1: and we know that black women are often expected to
Speaker 1: have these really high expectations, but also the pay and
Speaker 1: the promotion rates don't necessarily kind of match up with that.
Speaker 1: So can you tell me a little bit about what
Speaker 1: kinds of questions black women should be asking themselves and
Speaker 1: their supervisors if they feel like their level of work
Speaker 1: isn't necessarily matching either their pay grade or their.
Speaker 2: Title, and not necessarily matching the team infrastructure to support
Speaker 2: them to be successful. Yes, we can talk about that.
Speaker 2: We can talk about that. So some of the questions,
Speaker 2: it depends on where you are in the process. So
Speaker 2: if you are considering a role, whether you're an internal
Speaker 2: candidate or external, these questions could be helpful. Whether you're
Speaker 2: in the thick of the role and you're seeing that
Speaker 2: your work is outpacing what was initially written down about
Speaker 2: what the role would be, these questions can be helpful.
Speaker 2: And if you are considering whether or not you want
Speaker 2: to stay in the role given that your work has
Speaker 2: outgrown what initially was supposed to be be within the
Speaker 2: scope of work, these questions could be helpful. One I
Speaker 2: would have the conversation with the decision maker, because having
Speaker 2: the conversation with folks who don't have decision making power
Speaker 2: can distract from the purpose of why you need to
Speaker 2: have such a conversation and move towards solutions. So I
Speaker 2: first narrow in is this the decision maker? And if
Speaker 2: this person isn't, then I need to find out who
Speaker 2: is so I don't waste my time. One of the
Speaker 2: questions I have folks consider is what's the scope of
Speaker 2: work initially laid out for this role or what has
Speaker 2: been the scope of work? What are you doing now
Speaker 2: within the scope of work? How have you exceeded the
Speaker 2: limits of what the scope of work were supposed to protect?
Speaker 2: And then what is the difference between the two, And
Speaker 2: how has that impacted not just your workload, but the
Speaker 2: time you have spent on the work, perhaps the quality.
Speaker 2: Most often you've been able to keep up high quality
Speaker 2: work even being limited and stretched, And how has it
Speaker 2: impacted the work assigned to other colleagues, Because if you're
Speaker 2: taking on additional work and you're noticing other colleagues don't
Speaker 2: have such a pace of work expected of them, nor quality,
Speaker 2: then chances are you might be taking on some of
Speaker 2: their work that they should have been doing or could
Speaker 2: be doing, and just aren't aware that now it's grown
Speaker 2: within their scope before instead of yours. So those are
Speaker 2: the first foundational because we've got to get really clear
Speaker 2: with the evidence. What do we see? And then I
Speaker 2: want to know what's going on socially collegially amongst your colleagues.
Speaker 2: How are you being treated? Are people asking you? Pinging you?
Speaker 2: Some people use Slack, some people use Microsoft teams? Are
Speaker 2: they pinging you fifty eleven times? Hey? Have you done this? Hey?
Speaker 2: How's this going? Hey? Can you give me an update
Speaker 2: on this? Chances are folks have already internalized that you
Speaker 2: are at this leadership role taking on more of this work,
Speaker 2: and are treating you such and have the expectations of you.
Speaker 2: But yet that hasn't translated into your pay, hasn't translated
Speaker 2: formally into your scope over for your job description, and
Speaker 2: it hasn't translated formally into the resources money you need
Speaker 2: to bring on the team or to support the team
Speaker 2: that you're supposed to have or do have to do more.
Speaker 2: And so that's the beginning, just the beginning, that's the analysis.
Speaker 2: Second part the process we go through Okay, what's the strategy.
Speaker 2: Who do we talk to, what's the messaging for each person?
Speaker 2: What do they care about most that would get them
Speaker 2: to understand what you're going through? How do we built
Speaker 2: empathy around that conversation? And then thirdly we go into
Speaker 2: actually role playing and mapping it out. What are we doing?
Speaker 2: And then fourth we go back to evaluation. What has happened?
Speaker 2: What are the results? That's kind of valuation. So this
Speaker 2: all occurs within an engagement of coaching around your leadership development,
Speaker 2: because so often we're out here on our own trying
Speaker 2: to figure it out and also implementing in a way
Speaker 2: that can feel isolating, even though other folks have gone
Speaker 2: through what you were going through are going through it
Speaker 2: alongside you, and that's sense of community helps embolden you
Speaker 2: to stand up for yourself.
Speaker 1: So would somebody kind of reach out for your support
Speaker 1: if they are considering asking for a promotion? Like it
Speaker 1: sounds like you work with people who are mid level
Speaker 1: or even senior level leadership. But even if somebody's enjoying
Speaker 1: our conversation and they, you know, are in an organization
Speaker 1: and thinking like, Okay, I feel like I'm ready to
Speaker 1: move to that next level, they could reach out to
Speaker 1: you for some support around how to make that ask.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, A lot of the folks that I work
Speaker 2: with now, I've been with them since their promotion because
Speaker 2: they have grown in their awareness of what they have
Speaker 2: capacity to do and what they're capable of doing outside
Speaker 2: of what people expected them to do. And they have
Speaker 2: wonder curiosity and interest in exploring other realms of their
Speaker 2: work and that could connect to a different pay grade,
Speaker 2: a different role, a different organization. And so through inquiry
Speaker 2: based approach that I have with folks, I never present
Speaker 2: answers for people. I ask a lot of questionquestions and
Speaker 2: I listen and I understand more about what people care about,
Speaker 2: and I ask questions around their values and their alignment
Speaker 2: of what they're doing their day to day People come
Speaker 2: to their own clarity, and once they come to that clarity,
Speaker 2: that might lead to a promotion, and then once they're
Speaker 2: in the new role, it's like, Okay, how do I
Speaker 2: build this within my team?
Speaker 1: So there's been lots of conversation, it feels like, particularly online,
Speaker 1: around black women's refusal to deal with microaggressions and that
Speaker 1: being read as antisocial. So can you say a little
Speaker 1: bit about like what suggestions you have for people who
Speaker 1: might be enjoying the conversation around like how to kind
Speaker 1: of do this dance that is sometimes required in co
Speaker 1: working spaces if you are not particularly fans of your coworkers.
Speaker 2: We are human beings. We are not here for entertainment.
Speaker 2: As a team member, as a colleague. A lot of
Speaker 2: times we can be seen as the person who has
Speaker 2: to show up and be everything for everybody, and that
Speaker 2: often takes out our abiliity to be human, our humanity,
Speaker 2: and in looking at us devoid of such humanity, it's
Speaker 2: why aren't you performing or entertaining or being in the
Speaker 2: way that I expect of you absence of me considering
Speaker 2: your personhood. That's the culture within your organization. And then
Speaker 2: if people are acting in that way and forwarding on
Speaker 2: that dehumanization, if you will, then you got to wonder, okay,
Speaker 2: is this the place for me? And if you are
Speaker 2: going to stay and it doesn't overload you emotionally and
Speaker 2: you're in a financial position where you can stay. I
Speaker 2: would take it down to the most fundamental level of communication,
Speaker 2: and that is strictly technical, like I would not go
Speaker 2: into any emotional connected conversation because sometimes people won't appreciate
Speaker 2: that from you, and so we can get over extended
Speaker 2: emotionally for trying really really hard to in some instances
Speaker 2: appease folks appeal to their of empathy and they might
Speaker 2: not have it for us. So the more we do that,
Speaker 2: the less it will be reciprocated, and then that can
Speaker 2: also lead to further further burnout. So if you must stay,
Speaker 2: then I would keep the conversation to a technical foundational
Speaker 2: level that is central to your subject matter expertise in
Speaker 2: your role.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break so you mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: dictum would be that some people do the calculation and
Speaker 1: sometimes it's just not possible for you to leave a
Speaker 1: work please, even if you feel like your spirit is
Speaker 1: not being felled, and you know, you feel like in
Speaker 1: tostile maybe even in some ways. So if someone is
Speaker 1: forced to kind of stay in a situation because bills
Speaker 1: have to be paid, what kinds of things would you
Speaker 1: suggest for them to continue to take care of themselves
Speaker 1: even in that kind of environment.
Speaker 2: First, that's doing it. Else of where are the spaces
Speaker 2: in the organization where you feel you could be somewhat
Speaker 2: who you are without being penalized for who you are
Speaker 2: and where are the spaces where you just know there
Speaker 2: is little to no psychological safety. It would be a
Speaker 2: detriment for you to show up as you are because
Speaker 2: people would take advantage of it. So we need to
Speaker 2: understand the terrain that we're working with and then in
Speaker 2: those spaces, who are the people and do the same
Speaker 2: analysis and then take that and understand who you can
Speaker 2: and frankly cannot be in a room with alone and
Speaker 2: document document, document, So that's what you could do. Technically,
Speaker 2: you keep your scope of work very closely aligned to
Speaker 2: what you have been assigned to do, and you readily
Speaker 2: seek the decision maker within your team to pinpoint where
Speaker 2: in your scope of work you are operating outside of
Speaker 2: it because the work has been assigned to you, or
Speaker 2: you have literally outgrown the role and you've taken on more,
Speaker 2: and you can do it so that you all can
Speaker 2: have a conversation whether or not that needs to be reconciled.
Speaker 2: And when I say whether or not needs to be reconciled,
Speaker 2: you can keep doing that extra work. But then we
Speaker 2: got to make some adjustments on the pay of the promotion,
Speaker 2: or you can choose, Hey, that's not the work we
Speaker 2: need to be doing, and they might say that's not
Speaker 2: the work they need you to be doing anymore. Then
Speaker 2: then they take some things off of your plate. Because
Speaker 2: if you're feeling squeezed within the amount of work you're
Speaker 2: doing and the colleagues you're working with and really honestly
Speaker 2: have looked at your reality and you cannot make a
Speaker 2: transition at this moment, then we need to decrease the
Speaker 2: amount of stress and the input from many people into
Speaker 2: your work so that you can literally make it day
Speaker 2: to day. It can be emotionally taxing, it can be
Speaker 2: very exhausting, and it can be done with those picular instances.
Speaker 2: I move very strategically and tactfully because I know it
Speaker 2: is a delicate situation for that leader.
Speaker 1: So I wonder, doctor may, if you can set us
Speaker 1: straight on the purpose of HR in workplaces, because I
Speaker 1: feel like we've been hearing a lot about, you know,
Speaker 1: reminding people HR is there to protect the company, is
Speaker 1: not necessarily there to protect you as an employee. So
Speaker 1: can you say a little bit about if HR is
Speaker 1: a resource for us to go to and if not,
Speaker 1: what are the spaces that we can kind of lean
Speaker 1: on as resources if we're having difficulties in a workplace.
Speaker 2: On paper, yeah, HR supposed to be supportive, but like
Speaker 2: you said, we have been hearing and folks have been
Speaker 2: coming on around like their interest isn't in us. It's
Speaker 2: in the protection of the organization to keep going. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: so what else can you do? So a lot of
Speaker 2: the folks that I work with, it's through leadership coaches,
Speaker 2: it's through the colleagues who they have found to be trustworthy.
Speaker 2: It gives you a built in team to protect yourself
Speaker 2: when you have to be sometimes in a defensive mode
Speaker 2: in an organization that you feel just isn't there for you.
Speaker 2: And like I said, everything is temporary. So in a
Speaker 2: situation where HR isn't necessarily expressing as if they're there
Speaker 2: for you, then long term that can't stay as the
Speaker 2: reality for you. It can't. And there are other spaces.
Speaker 2: We just have to find the bridge to them. And
Speaker 2: in the meantime, there are ways to better support yourself
Speaker 2: along the way, in addition to you know, attorneys, because
Speaker 2: that far I know some people has gotten that far.
Speaker 1: So some of the other terms that often come up
Speaker 1: when we're talking about black women in the workspaces is
Speaker 1: confirmation bias and the glass Cliff, and I know you
Speaker 1: talk a lot about this in your work. Can you
Speaker 1: define those terms for us?
Speaker 2: Confirmation bias, there's a bias towards AH. As a leader,
Speaker 2: I'm looking for this kind of information to quantify or
Speaker 2: analyze whether or not this decision is the best for
Speaker 2: our team and for the role and for the work.
Speaker 2: And so instead of looking at the full span of
Speaker 2: all the evidence and the train of the reality of
Speaker 2: what's going on across the sector, across the role, this
Speaker 2: leader looks for particular instances of evidence that match up
Speaker 2: with where they want to go anyway and their decision making.
Speaker 2: Confirmation bias biasing their confirmation glass Cliff, Oh, we need
Speaker 2: to do a longer conversation on this, but I'll just
Speaker 2: start here. A lot of times organizations find themselves realizing, oh,
Speaker 2: our leadership does not reflect the values that we say
Speaker 2: that we have, our leadership does not reflect the population
Speaker 2: of folks we're working with, or our work is directly
Speaker 2: impacted by and we need to change that. And so
Speaker 2: sometimes in those instances when that realization occurs, it's also
Speaker 2: sometimes occurring at the same time as an internal crisis
Speaker 2: or a highly delicate issue has occurred that is central
Speaker 2: to the survival of the organization, and sometimes organizations go, ah,
Speaker 2: let's put the two together and let's have in some
Speaker 2: cases the black woman be the leader and lead us
Speaker 2: through this difficult, turbulent time. And to make sure she
Speaker 2: has what she needs to do it, let's promote her
Speaker 2: and Vola will figure it out together. And so it's
Speaker 2: kind of like you're on a glass cliff. You've ascended
Speaker 2: in leadership, but yet you're literally on the cliff of
Speaker 2: success and or failure. And while you're up there, it's
Speaker 2: glass because everybody's watching you. And so this reality of wow,
Speaker 2: I've worked so hard to reach this point in my
Speaker 2: career to have this level of trust across the organization,
Speaker 2: and now I'm questioning whether or not I'm set up
Speaker 2: for success and whether or not people are watching, waiting, witnessing,
Speaker 2: ready for me to either be successful or fail walking
Speaker 2: on a class cliff. So is this.
Speaker 1: Typically a conscious decision by leadership. Is it typically like, oh,
Speaker 1: let's find like a black woman to take the fall
Speaker 1: for this, or is it that it ends up being
Speaker 1: that way because black women are kind of thought to
Speaker 1: be the ones who can save everything for everybody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wouldn't be telling the truth if I didn't
Speaker 2: tell you that. I know in certain conversations, in certain
Speaker 2: moments of crisis, some leaders realize if we don't have
Speaker 2: a person to be upfront leading this kind of initiative,
Speaker 2: it could lead to further damage to our reputation. And
Speaker 2: sometimes people will then look towards a group of people
Speaker 2: and see if there is someone within who is willing
Speaker 2: and interested in leading. And that does not necessarily mean
Speaker 2: that person isn't qualified for it. They probably been qualified
Speaker 2: and you just gave him a shot because as you're struggling.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about if we find ourselves at the
Speaker 1: pinnacle of making this decision right, because I think for
Speaker 1: a lot of people, this is the life changing opportunity,
Speaker 1: right like this title, there's probably lots of money, not
Speaker 1: probably a lot of resources, which you've already talked about, right,
Speaker 1: So you're being set up for failure, but it is
Speaker 1: I think, probably like a once in a lifetime kind
Speaker 1: of shot. And so what kinds of things should somebody
Speaker 1: even ask themselves, like if they recognize this is probably
Speaker 1: not gonna end up well for me, but do I
Speaker 1: not take the shot. What kinds of conversation should we
Speaker 1: be having with ourselves?
Speaker 2: Well, it actually might end up going well for you.
Speaker 2: It might. It just means you also might not be
Speaker 2: set up initially to be successful. And that's where the
Speaker 2: conversations around what you need to be successful need to
Speaker 2: be had. And do not feel bad about it, because
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, it is your name,
Speaker 2: not theirs, on this work. So whatever you need, it's
Speaker 2: a conversation. Just like they need you. You come on,
Speaker 2: you need some things.
Speaker 1: Too, So what kinds of things might you need to
Speaker 1: be successful in this kindilyst situation.
Speaker 2: Who's the staff that's supporting me on this that's huge?
Speaker 2: Who is the staff? And do we need to hire externally?
Speaker 2: They don't necessarily have to be FTEs. They could be consultants,
Speaker 2: they could be contract colleagues. Coming in, what's the budget
Speaker 2: and is the budget set? Because as I get in
Speaker 2: here and I find out what we need more of,
Speaker 2: we need to have more conversations about upping the budget.
Speaker 2: That's got to be on the table. That fluidity and
Speaker 2: that trust for them to have in you in honoring
Speaker 2: your expertise when you say we need more funds to
Speaker 2: do this this and this, and of course you're gonna
Speaker 2: be meticulous and deliberate and intentional about what you share
Speaker 2: and the price points for each initiative and what it
Speaker 2: would take in the team. But that needs to be
Speaker 2: there money and the staff, the team, and thendly, the
Speaker 2: trust to listen to what you have said and to
Speaker 2: not actively or indirectly, rather not try to dismiss it,
Speaker 2: not try to undermine it. You have me in this
Speaker 2: role for reason. Trust what I got to say. Listen
Speaker 2: to what I have to say. You know, if those
Speaker 2: three things are there from the jump, then go for it.
Speaker 2: If they aren't, but yeah, you still want to do
Speaker 2: it because one, like you said, it could be a
Speaker 2: life changing opportunity decision, and two it can open up
Speaker 2: other avenues for you to be in collaboration with other organizations,
Speaker 2: other sectors. So for the visibility, cool, but make sure you,
Speaker 2: like I said, are documenting, documenting, documenting, because no matter
Speaker 2: what happens on the other end, you will have the
Speaker 2: story and the narrative and the truth of what it
Speaker 2: took to get to that point, what happened in the
Speaker 2: middle of him, and how you were a leader through it.
Speaker 2: Because whatever the organization does. You're one person. That's what
Speaker 2: the organization does. But you, as a leader were essential
Speaker 2: in these parts of the work, and you led them
Speaker 2: to the best of your abilities and to the extent
Speaker 2: of your expertise. And so you make sure you are
Speaker 2: very clear on that narrative that you will have to
Speaker 2: share no matter what at the end, whether the initiative
Speaker 2: went the way you needed it to go and wanted
Speaker 2: it to go and the way you let it, or
Speaker 2: folks just didn't honor all the expertise you had, all
Speaker 2: the work you did and chose to do something differently.
Speaker 2: That's on them, But you know what you did.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, you know, doctor Mumby,
Speaker 1: I'm curious if there are any pretty public examples of
Speaker 1: black women who could have been walking off the glass
Speaker 1: cliff but then it actually turned around to be a
Speaker 1: success for them. Are you aware of any stories of
Speaker 1: people we could look to for examples.
Speaker 2: Of this, Yes, I do. To be a black woman
Speaker 2: in the workspace is to be a highly watched, surveilled, scrutinized,
Speaker 2: and that in itself is like living, walking, working at
Speaker 2: the edge of a glass cliff. So there are examples
Speaker 2: all around us, And what I will share is that,
Speaker 2: in particular, I've been watching her leadership for a while
Speaker 2: and I thought of her as you mentioned this question.
Speaker 2: So I looked to Sheila Johnson. So she was the
Speaker 2: co founder of BT Opened Up Salamander had just released
Speaker 2: a memoir about her life, her leadership in the midst
Speaker 2: of so much that many of us can relate to.
Speaker 2: And she's definitely at least one person who has not
Speaker 2: just walked on a glass cliff, but just shattered so
Speaker 2: many ceilings and so many barriers and has lived to
Speaker 2: tell I would lift her up right now.
Speaker 1: Heard memoir is definitely on my two b red list
Speaker 1: because lots of people have had great things to say
Speaker 1: about it. Is that pay you're sharing that example. So
Speaker 1: we talked a little bit about microaggressions a little earlier,
Speaker 1: but I want us to back up a little bit
Speaker 1: because I think sometimes people don't even recognize that something
Speaker 1: that may be happening in the workspace is a microaggression.
Speaker 1: What suggestions would you have for people who are wondering, like, oh,
Speaker 1: is that behavior from the coworker, Like is this something
Speaker 1: I should be concerned about? What kinds of suggestions would
Speaker 1: you have there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes you're thinking, wait, what's that or wasn't that?
Speaker 2: Look for a pattern of behavior. Look for the pattern,
Speaker 2: Look for who else they are speaking to and how
Speaker 2: they're speaking to them, and look for the pattern of
Speaker 2: behavior there. If it's not there, but it's shown up
Speaker 2: with you, you might have something here, and you keep
Speaker 2: documenting and documenting and documenting. I have folks who I
Speaker 2: work with look to this really good framework that orders
Speaker 2: thoughts that you have in conversations that can feel emotionally charged,
Speaker 2: and it's out of the management center Situation behavior SBI.
Speaker 2: So you ground the conversation in the situation when this
Speaker 2: occurred behavior, this is what I noticed. You did impact.
Speaker 2: This is the impact it has had on me on
Speaker 2: my work on my team. Situation behavior impact. That is
Speaker 2: the foundation they'll get you going. So notice the pattern
Speaker 2: and then when you have the pattern, document have the
Speaker 2: documentation in the pattern, have the conversation rooted in situation
Speaker 2: behavior impact. That is a good start.
Speaker 1: We love a good framework to start the conversation. Thank you.
Speaker 1: That's helpful. So you mentioned early on in our conversation
Speaker 1: that you know a large part of your work and
Speaker 1: kind of stems from your own personal experience around like
Speaker 1: over indexing in work versus being available to your family.
Speaker 1: What kinds of suggestions do you have for people for
Speaker 1: how to leave work at work so that there is
Speaker 1: more of a balance in your life.
Speaker 2: I like that you said so there is more of
Speaker 2: a balance, not so that there is balance, because I
Speaker 2: mean that's a practice and I don't know. I'm really
Speaker 2: into interweaving elements of yourself that bring you joy and
Speaker 2: make you feel a sense of being. Yeah, I look
Speaker 2: at time, look at how you're spending your time. So
Speaker 2: I have this offering at a mini workshop. It's called
Speaker 2: the Time Reclamation Blueprint, and it's basically a workshop around
Speaker 2: time and values that I distilled a portion of it
Speaker 2: into a document. It's on my website. You're free to
Speaker 2: get it. Look at your time, where are you spending it,
Speaker 2: and be honest with yourself, no judgment. It's just you
Speaker 2: looking at you. Where's your time, how you're feeling when
Speaker 2: you're doing it, and the things that you're doing during
Speaker 2: that time, and how you're feeling. You have to and
Speaker 2: it's the start time reclamation, reclaim your time.
Speaker 1: Okay, doctor Mumby. There is a trend going around on TikTok.
Speaker 1: So I want to see if you want to play
Speaker 1: a little game with me. I don't know if you
Speaker 1: are you on TikTok at all or pay attention to TikTok.
Speaker 2: I mean, I pay attention, but I'm not gonna officially.
Speaker 1: We're not gonna go too far. We're not gonna go
Speaker 1: too far. Maybe you have seen this trend where people
Speaker 1: are like, how do I say this thing? But in
Speaker 1: a way that's not gonna get me? Fine, I'm I
Speaker 1: all right. So the first one is, how do you say?
Speaker 1: That's not my job? So you talked earlier about like
Speaker 1: your scope of work.
Speaker 2: I got this. That's that's it. Oh, that sounds really
Speaker 2: interesting and exciting. Let me go back to my team
Speaker 2: and figure out if we have the capacity to do
Speaker 2: that and if it's within our scope at this point,
Speaker 2: because it might not be. And if it isn't, then
Speaker 2: I'm very open to collaborating with other colleagues who might
Speaker 2: have the capacity to do this.
Speaker 1: Ooh, I like that one. Okay. The second one is
Speaker 1: I said that already or I just said that.
Speaker 2: I absolutely understand what you just said, and I agree.
Speaker 2: I plus one. In our earlier conversations I connected to
Speaker 2: that idea because blah blah blah blah blah. I'm happy
Speaker 2: to see that you also are in agreement with it.
Speaker 2: Let's do da da da da da da da.
Speaker 1: I love it. Okay, here's the last one. I'm swamped
Speaker 1: with work.
Speaker 2: We might be at capacity at this point in the quarter,
Speaker 2: but let me go back and see if we can
Speaker 2: add this to our scope of work for quarter two
Speaker 2: or quarter three and see how we can backwards plan
Speaker 2: to make sure that what you're suggesting works within our
Speaker 2: team's capacity.
Speaker 1: Oh. I love that. I also love how like the
Speaker 1: voice is like so much softer right because we're like, oh,
Speaker 1: let me try to massage this the.
Speaker 2: Way I am. I'm giving myself away now. The softer,
Speaker 2: the softer my voice is, the more furious I am.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, doctor mummy, tell us where can we stay
Speaker 1: connected with you? It sounds like you already have at
Speaker 1: least one great resource on your website, So tell us
Speaker 1: what else can we find at your website? What is
Speaker 1: the website in any social media channels you want to
Speaker 1: share with us?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, definitely. So. My website is my name, It's
Speaker 2: www dot yasmine mumby dot com. Y A s M
Speaker 2: E n E m U m b y dot com.
Speaker 2: And I have the Time Reclamation Blueprint, I have meditations.
Speaker 2: I write monthly ish. I say ish because I'm a
Speaker 2: human and sometimes it don't come out every thirty days.
Speaker 2: A monthly ish newsletter that has all of the reflections
Speaker 2: and the tips and the insights that I've gathered over
Speaker 2: the month of working with organizations and clients I'm coaching.
Speaker 2: So nothing I put out there is in the abstract.
Speaker 2: It's all rooted in the practical, what's current, and also
Speaker 2: research centered. So sign it for my newsletter for my
Speaker 2: website to get that if you're interested. And I'm on
Speaker 2: Instagram because that's just what I can handle right now.
Speaker 2: And it's my name is Yasmine Underscore yas M E
Speaker 2: n E Underscore, the tictac and the threads and the Facebook.
Speaker 2: I'm on LinkedIn's it's my name, but listen, it's Instagram
Speaker 2: on the website because I just had a ten month
Speaker 2: old and that's all I can do right now. Let's see,
Speaker 2: I'm talking about my capacity.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. There you go, real life examples
Speaker 1: of that. Well, thank you so much for all that
Speaker 1: you shared today. Will be sure to include all of
Speaker 1: that in the show notes so people can stay connected
Speaker 1: with you.
Speaker 2: I had a great time in this conversation with you.
Speaker 2: Thank you for inviting me. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Doctor Mumby was able to join us
Speaker 1: for this episode. To learn more about her and her work,
Speaker 1: visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
Speaker 1: slash Session three point fifty and don't forget to text
Speaker 1: two of your girls right now and tell them to
Speaker 1: check out the episode. If you're looking for a therapist
Speaker 1: in your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want
Speaker 1: to continue digging into this topic or just be in
Speaker 1: community with other sisters, come on over and join us
Speaker 1: in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the
Speaker 1: Internet designed just for black women. You can join us
Speaker 1: at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode
Speaker 1: was produced by Frida Lucas, Elise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor.
Speaker 1: Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much
Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to
Speaker 1: continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take you
Speaker 1: care
Speaker 2: What what what