If you want
better relationships and who doesn't?
We need to be better communicators.
This is a profound truth and it is the focus of our conversation today.
And while we have been in relationships and communicating our entire lives,
we can all get better at it, at work, at home.
And as leaders join us today, as we help you understand
and unlock the communication code.
Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership
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And with that, we bring in my guest.
His name is Jeremy Cuba Jack.
He's been here with me before long ago, and he's back.
I don't remember when it was
I was going to look it up and then I didn't get around that.
We'll have it in the show notes for everybody.
Let me introduce Jeremy to you and then we'll dive in.
And he's a powerful communicator, a serial entrepreneur and a content builder.
He creates content used by some of the largest companies around
the globe found in the six books he has authored, including his latest,
The Communication Code, coauthored with his business partner, Steve Cockrum.
Jeremy is the co-founder of Giant, a company that certifies coaches
and consultants that serve companies and their employees.
He started he has started over 25 companies while living in Oklahoma
City, Moscow, Atlanta and London.
And welcome back to the show, Jeremy.
Glad to have you.
Thanks for joining us.
Kevin, always good to be with you.
I love what you do and I'm just grateful to be with you.
And probably more grateful if my phone hadn't gone off.
But that's another story, everybody.
I was telling him before we started 424
episodes, you'd think I'd remember to turn off my phone before we start.
So, listen, we have been together, but it's been a while,
and many people who are with us have not don't know you well.
So tell us a little bit
about the journey that led you, Jeremy, to this point.
Yeah.
So my the whole journey, what I'm after is I want people to become more
relationally intelligent because I keep watching what happens when they're not.
And I've spent my career in leadership.
You know, I used to run the leader cast event and built that and built
the Catalyst conferences and ran John Maxwell's worlds for a number of years,
started companies in lots of places and then have written my own books.
And every time what I keep finding is that we have this pandemic of
cynical know it alls
who don't know what it's like to be on the other side of themselves.
And I've been that myself.
So it's really the goal of my life.
And what I'm trying to accomplish is help people
see what it's like to be
on the other side of themselves, but then give them actual practical tools
to not only solve it for themselves, but change
the dynamics of the relationships in their life.
So I mentioned in the introduction six books.
This is the sixth book. It's called The Communication Code.
So you really I think, answered
already sort of why this book?
But I'm curious as to the title.
Why do you think of it
or why should we think of communication as having a code?
Yeah. So here's here's what I want you to think about.
If you're listening to this and a podcast, our life here, the communication code.
Think about communication, and communication is a transmission.
I'm transmitting something.
So when I transmit something, transmission has an expectation.
Every transmission has an expectation.
It's like I'm communicating something to you.
It means, Hey, Kevin, I'd love to get together
soon and talk about a few things. Okay.
What's the agenda?
What's the what's the expectation attached to that?
What are you wanting?
So when you understand that most people miss communicate,
which means we mess up the expectation transfer.
We don't. We're not aware, We don't know
or we haven't solved the expectation of the person.
That means we we won't meet their needs and then we further
disappoint people.
Like I did it again. Yep.
And so there's a we.
What Steve and I realized was this happened kept happening with
he and I, and we had an infamous session.
This is eight years ago.
We've been using this tool for about eight years.
We were sitting in this restaurant called Jack and Alice in London.
Seems British. And I used I used to live in London.
And so we're setting this restaurant.
I just gotten back from the States.
I just closed a pretty large deal and I was pretty excited about it.
And so I came to Steve.
I'm like, Dude, let's go, man.
I want to talk.
So my expectation was to celebrate.
I started sharing my what happened?
And Steve
starts to go, Ha!
Well, that's not how we talked about it.
Why did why did you do it that way?
I thought we were going to do X, Y and Z.
He starts critiquing the very deal that I closed
when what I closed was bigger than what we had talked about.
But it didn't happen the way that we had talked, that we thought it would happen.
It happened in a different way.
But his critique caused me to turn beet red
and I started to literally build up.
And what I realized was every time this was happening, every time with Steve,
every time I'd have a celebration, there'd be a critique attached to it.
In his mind, he thought he was collaborating, but it was coming out.
This didn't feel like that to you.
And it's never happened to anyone who's listening, right?
Ever where someone felt like they were collaborating.
But do you have felt like a critique? Right.
And and therefore, I was like, That's not what I'm looking for right now.
There's a time and place.
So I said it.
Why do you always critique?
It's like putting water on my fire.
I've got this cake with candles I'm trying to celebrate.
And you just doused it with water.
And he goes, Well, why didn't you tell me you wanted to celebrate?
I'm like, Well, why didn't you know?
I wanted to celebrate?
And it took us about 2 hours and we figured out
we just actually committed to stay and solve the issue that kept happening.
And then we started figuring out what was happening
with our spouse and other people.
And we figured out there's code words and everyone's
if they could actually send the code word,
then there's a better chance the expectations will get me,
which means that communications will get better,
which means that relationships will be unlocked.
I want to get to the all the code words, people.
If you're paying close attention, you might know that we've
already mentioned three of them, but we'll get to that in a minute.
But there's two there's like three other things
I think we need to talk about before we dive in to the words themselves.
And and we'll do that in a minute.
In both, the first two of these ideas have already come up in our conversation.
But I think it's important
for us to talk about you talk about the idea of relational trust.
Most people would just use the word trust.
What do you mean when you say relational trust and
how does it relate to this conversation?
So I'll take it a step further.
Again, we we focus at Giant on relational intelligence,
so an unintelligent person will have relational issues.
So relational, unintended, urgent person is someone who's not built
relational trust.
So relational trust is the idea that when we're talking,
when we're communicating, we're doing it in the framework
of a relationship, not in the framework of a transaction.
And a
transaction is very different than than a relationship.
So the transaction is just, yeah, commodity right back and forth.
So if you're inside a relationship, there's
this relational trust or a relational distrust.
There's relational intelligence or relational unintelligent.
What tends to take place is people
have the same tendencies and we're not aware of what we do.
And so take the take the spouse,
the husband, typically the female.
I'm just generalizing here, but the female,
the spouse will say, Hey, I really need to talk.
And this the woman starts going into detail.
The man's tries to solve it.
And all of a sudden the wife because never mind, never mind.
And then they pull back and then she begins to talk to other friends
who will listen because her husband never listens.
And then she says, you know, Dale never listens.
He'll never change.
He's always the same meaning he he has a tendency to critique.
But he's not
doesn't show care, so he doesn't know how to care for me.
So I have to get my needs met in other places.
Well, there's an emotional distress.
Yeah.
So going back to your earlier. Sorry, I didn't mean interrupt.
Going back to your earlier point that once we have these code words
and we're going to talk about this more, but the idea is that
it doesn't necessarily mean that Dale isn't capable of care.
It's just that's not what he's thinking.
Like, I'll take an example, a similar very similar example.
You know, Jeremy, you know, the kind of work that I do.
We do very similar work.
And so all day long people are asking me
for my advice.
And when I go home and hear about my wife's day at work,
that is not what she wants from me.
So we could use the code word as a way to talk about that.
But what I learned a long time ago is that she may want advice
about some work issue at some point, but not first.
And until I realize that that's not what she needs
first and I have to be the one to make the adjustment.
And I'm not saying I'm perfect, and I'm way better.
Way better at it than I used to be, then that
that has the chance to make a huge impact,
including building relational trust.
We then what we've done is we've created common language
so that people can use the common language because common language
builds object, objective
relation or communication is not subjective.
So a subjective subjectivity is where all drama comes from.
You know, Kevin, you never you always.
Why do you.
Why can't you like subjective thoughts
versus common language is like, hey,
I really need you to care.
I just need care today.
I don't really need critique.
I just need you to listen.
You got it.
You sent the code word.
I've heard it. Now I have to respond to it.
You said two things.
Made me
think of my father, who used to say Kevin always and never are a very long time.
And the other problem with those two words are.
As long as I can think of one time when it wasn't true,
then I didn't get everything that you just said.
And there we go to Drama.
I love that.
Well, I don't love drama, but except on the screen.
But yeah, I love that.
So the other thing
that you guys talk about early in the book and that we mentioned briefly
and it relates to what we've just been talking about is the idea of expectations.
And and I think the older
and hopefully wiser that I get,
the more I realize how very important and underappreciated expectations
are not just for us as leaders, certainly for us as well.
You're setting clearer expectations.
People can't read our minds, right, but in all areas of our lives as well.
So anything beyond what we've already said that you want to comment on here.
Yeah.
So expectations they have
they have long memories because you you think about
when you've your expectations have not been met historically.
So if you want if you're listening to this and you want to
significantly change the relationships that you have,
then you've got to do a little bit of work to go back and first recognize it.
Second, apologize.
And then third, create a new standard, which is going to take weeks, months
for people to see that it's legit and it's real that you actually have changed.
Most people are just unaware that they tend to critique
or they're killjoys to other people.
There's no note.
So therefore and so when they don't know it, then they think it's the other person.
Now, she woke up on the other strong side of the bed
this morning, or what's up with him?
Well, you know, it could be you.
It could be that every single time that you're with someone, you find fault
and they see it as critical.
They don't see it as you trying to help them.
Exactly.
So then that creates a dynamic,
which then means that my expectations become limited and maybe even resigned
because I'm going to put a wall up to protect myself from you.
And every time we have a communication, it is exactly the same as the last one.
And the last one. And the last one and the last one.
The wall goes higher and higher and higher and higher.
And my expectations
for us to have a good relationship go lower and lower and lower.
And all that wall does is make sure that not like any wall.
Nothing's getting through it. Right. Now.
All right.
So we've been talking about examples, Jeremy,
that are both personal and professional.
And there's
if if we're on a podcast called the Remarkable Leadership Podcast,
when you talk a little bit about that leadership role piece, which means
there are power dynamics at play. Right.
So talk a little bit about that, about what that looks like
and what that how that matters in this conversation.
Yeah.
So, you know, you think back to history.
You go, okay, if I have a if I'm thinking of a relationship
in my life, the power dynamics are,
well, who is that person to me?
Are they older than me?
Are are they a father figure?
Are they a teacher? A principal?
There's power at play with AIDS, with title.
Are they a CEO in their world?
And so therefore, they're kind of a bigger thing in their world.
So those are all power moves.
And then you put in personality, then you might have a more Type A personality.
So all of those together could
could make it feel like I'm subservient to you
because of age, stage, title, personality.
So being aware then that your power dynamics
can actually shut people down and you may not be aware
of what it's like
to be on the other side of you and how and why people distrust you.
Because all they've experienced is your power and your
critique so they don't feel,
you know,
engage the feel that you're fighting for them.
They might feel like you're fighting against them.
Okay,
we keep talking about the code words,
but I haven't asked you or allowed you, if you will, to sort of outline them all.
By my count, we've actually you've actually mentioned four of the five.
So they all start with C, which I immediately love
because I like alliteration and it helps us remember them, of course.
So why don't you just very quickly describe each of the five.
I'll pop them on the screen for those watching as you do that.
Go ahead.
First one is celebrate.
So what we're seeing is that people have an expectation.
They have a code word.
So a celebration is when someone wants to talk
about something that excited about and just want to celebrate.
I'm not saying a parade.
I'm just saying I want to be able to to celebrate.
And so celebrations, one care is another.
So care is when someone is looking for you to listen
or just to just just to be with them or care about the things they care about.
And so cares going to be different
for different personalities, but that's ultimately what care is.
Third is clarifying, clarify.
So an expectation is, Hey, I need you to clarify what you're saying.
So I know that you know what I'm talking about.
So if we're going to collaborate on it,
I just need to know that you get what I'm saying.
If not, then we're going to have issues.
Then there's collaboration.
And then the collaboration is different.
The collaboration is like, Hey, we're working on this together.
This isn't hey, this is my idea.
Make it better.
This is Listen, I've got something.
Let's build something together.
So we're truly building together.
Whereas critique is allies, critique would be the last one.
So an expectation of critique is basically, Hey, make this better.
Some people take an idea out here and they go, Hey, Kevin, would you take my idea?
And thinkers will do this well,
and you shoot a hole in it and I go and take it away.
I'm like, Hey, good job.
Thank you. I just made it better. Appreciate that.
Well, that's ideal. Critique.
A lot of feelers will be their idea.
Yeah. Hey, Kevin, what do you think of it? And then put their idea right?
Right over my heart.
Right. Total ownership of this puppy. Right.
And so then you shoot at it, and then all of a sudden
you see blood and you're like, Why did you put it over your heart?
you're taking this personal.
No, this isn't personal.
And yet, because we're so passionate, everything is personal,
especially to viewers.
So that's where critique versus being critical are different.
So it crosses my mind.
You're talking about collaboration for those who are listening to the podcast.
Two weeks ago we had an episode who put this
in the show notes where I talked with Chris Dever and
Ian Clawson about their new book, which talks about co-creation
and how it requires us to be brave to do that.
And I think it requires us to be brave, have to know and understand what we need
in this communication, in this relationship, and
and to be brave enough to say, hey, I right now what I need is care,
not clarification, even, for example. Right.
So any you would say about that, about sort of the bravery
that comes or maybe how the words help us be braver perhaps?
Yeah, Well, I mean, we have expectations.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could share what those expectations are?
So all it is is it's a transmission.
Transmission has an expectation.
Expectation has a code word attached to it.
So by me coming to you and going, Hey, Kevin,
man, I've got some things I want to share.
I need you to clarify them first,
because I really need you to help pull out what I'm trying to say.
But I want your full collaboration.
But not until I know you're completely on the same page with me.
That should.
It's almost like a transmission you're aligning.
You're being aligned to actually work together.
So by doing this really, really well, it's it's
me actually giving you the chance to help me.
See, that's the part I love about this.
It's giving you the chance to help me.
Right.
So it puts us in this space of we're in this together, which, of course,
if we're in a relationship, we are in it together.
One of the things I wanted to do was read something from the book
that basically you've already said, but I'm going to
I'm going to read it again, read it here and let you comment on it.
You haven't said it quite this way In the book.
You said honor others by asking what code word they want from you.
You've talked about telling people what code word you want,
but this is saying honor them by asking.
So say a little bit more about that. Yeah.
So it's two ways, right?
So here's the reality.
Let's say, Kevin, let's say you and I are really close friends, okay?
And we've spent a lot of time
and we would be if we've got more time together. But let's just say
you have it's.
Too cold in Oklahoma City. Sorry.
You say one or two things that you'd want, okay.
And I have one or two things I'd want.
So when I'm meeting with you before we start, you go, Hey, man,
I want to meet with you. I'm so excited.
I want to talk to you about some things.
I couldn't miss it if I.
If I don't stop and go.
Okay. Before you do. What?
What are you hoping we accomplish?
What do you need from me?
Now, if you know the language, you go, that's right.
Yeah. I want.
I want your collaboration.
But I want you to clarify first. Perfect.
Thank you.
You've helped me be able to help you.
So that's.
That's the idea.
I have the same expectations as well.
So what we're doing is we're just meeting and matching expectations.
That's the entire game that we're playing here.
And so honor is really doing
that to others as they would want dance to Platinum Rule.
So it's actually providing what you would want
because in you may not even know that's what you want.
But for me to stop you before we go and help you align it,
it's going to it's the chance for me to increase.
My influence goes up dramatically.
So sometimes we read a book
and we can get tremendous value from it for ourselves.
That's true. That is true with this book.
But I think that the thing that is really been
reinforced for me, Jeremy, in our conversation beyond when I read it,
is that this book,
the communication Code, is of greater value when both people in a
in a relationship or everyone on a team all reads it
because of the.
Common. Common language.
Back to this idea of common language where we started.
And so I think that that's, I think is worth
you thinking about as you're listening to us.
Watching us and, and, and I would strongly encourage you
to think about getting copies of this book, not just for yourself, but for
those that you work with.
I'm sure you agree with that.
But anything you want to you want to add to that.
It's true. We've been seeing it.
We've been seeing it.
It's it's just it's really healthy and it's almost like
oil in an engine.
No one thinks about oil.
They think about the engine.
But it's the oil that makes the engine run, Right?
It's the oil. So it removes friction.
The communication code is like oil for a team or a marriage
or for being a dad or a parent.
It actually gives you the language so that we don't get into those
drama loops into the and pride doesn't enter and walls don't go up.
And so to unlock a relationship if you just
if you learn the few words and the system and the way to do this, it
literally changes the entire future of of a relationship.
Yeah I think that's right.
And and we have we have long said
these ideas
about the code words notwithstanding that workplace conflict conflict
but certainly workplace conflict is caused by unmet or unclear expectations.
And so drama is created when there are unmet or unclear expectations.
And so the five code words help create a shared expectations that
not all we need for clear expectations, but it's certainly a piece of that.
Absolutely. And you don't have to stay them.
A lot of people go, it feels weird.
You say them every single time.
I'm like, No, you get so good at it that I can pick up on what you want,
even if you don't tell me by asking a few questions.
I can know.
So, Kevin, before we start, you've got some great ideas here.
How can I be most helpful? Exactly.
So it doesn't have to.
It doesn't have to be formulaic.
However, like a lot of things like this, a little bit of that in your head
to start with.
I mean, if you're doing with this with someone else, using those words more
at the start will help you to ingrain it and make it more,
more real for you.
And the the other thing I just say is we've even gone deeper.
Indigo.
There's actually even a customer communication code.
So now in the top three, four relationships that you have in your life,
my wife and I,
for an example, here's exactly what I'm looking for.
It's not just I need I want celebration
and I want your clarification,
but here's exactly how I want them.
I want clarification to look like this.
And then she'll she'll say, care.
Here's exactly what I want.
I want you to listen
and I want you to be interested in the things I'm interested in,
okay?
So that's not just.
Hearing my words, but actually listening. Right?
But yeah, so interested in anything.
So then when when she's talking about a friend's daughter
and where I might go.
Yeah, okay.
That's my tendency.
But then to go, okay, stop.
We're in a hot tub, We're talking, we're having just conversation.
She wants to go deeper and talk about this other person so she cares.
What is it she cares about? Let me. Let me.
So now I'm trying to know because she gave me the code word.
I'm trying to learn and ask questions about what is it
that she's concerned about or really cares about with that person.
And by asking a little bit and helping now she feels that I care about
the things she cares about.
Yeah, I think that's really, really great.
And again, the stuff we've been talking about, everybody today
applies to all parts of our lives, of course,
but I do want to ask this question.
But as people
put their leadership hat on, Jeremy, sort of the last question before.
So we start to roll into the end of our conversation,
What where should we as leaders start here?
And maybe is there are there somewhat
common mistakes you see leaders make in relationship to these code words?
Is there anything that maybe would be a good place for people to start?
Yeah.
So actually in the book, the communication good.
The first two chapters go back and it's could be very painful
because you actually take one relationship in your life or maybe two,
and you start looking at you go, What's my
my historical power dynamic been with this person?
Have I brought challenge in? No support,
I've been dominating that person.
I've had a negative power play with them, so I've got to make that right.
Right.
And then if I go, well, let me figure out who they are and how they're wired. Now.
The Communication Code. Chapter three.
That gives you a chance to know the words, but then you just go
have a conversation with them.
If it's a team, do it together.
We've had teams actually do this.
Kevin We've had teams
go, Let's use a communication code as a system for our team meetings.
We're going to start with celebration.
What are what do we need to celebrate that happened in the last week.
Little things, high fives. Good job.
Okay, now care.
Everyone doing okay?
Is there anything we need to know in the company or on the team?
Well, you know, Susan's grandfather died.
thank you.
Let's send some flowers.
Yeah. Thanks for sharing.
Right. Care. Then we get to into clarity.
Clarification?
Here's what we're working on today.
Is everyone clear on kind of what we're doing now?
Collaboration. Let's work on it.
By the time you do that, you probably don't even need critique.
There's nothing to critique because you've got an alignment.
So it's a great way for organizations
to use it for organization behavior,
but it's also a 1 to 1 tool in the same, right?
I love that.
So couple more questions, Jeremy, before we finish.
And I'm really I'm going to shift gears on us now.
So if the expectation is we're going to keep talking about the book,
that would be incorrect.
So my question is, so Jeremy, what do you do for fun?
Yeah, so that's I create,
I create I like I actually I like to travel.
I like to go. I like ambiance.
I like friends and travel and go to places
and I meet people around the world and I like to create.
So my not just for business,
but I like to build concepts and content and that's what I do for fun.
It sounds kind of nerdy, so I'll read a lot.
I'll think a lot.
Right now I'm working on fear based
leadership and fear based performance, and I'm learning so much
that it's just fun for me.
I love that.
And you mentioned reading, so what are you reading these days?
So right now I'm reading an old book.
It's called A More Excellent Way.
And it's this
this old
kind of doctor type guy who went around to these communities.
And it's actually he saw how fear, worry,
insecure city affects health and he ties
he ties certain issues like arthritis, bitterness.
It's not saying that anyone who has arthritis is better.
That's not it at all.
But he's saying that if you do forgiveness exercises,
it actually affects your health.
So I'm just interested in how certain
relational issues can actually show up
in physical manifestations.
And it's just kind of an interesting reading right now.
There's no purpose for it other than I'm learning right now what we're.
Well, that's a plenty good reason to read.
Everybody is to learn.
And I think that sometimes we need and I need I'll say it for me,
I need to read with a little less purpose
sometimes, you know, although
I think you clearly described that there is a purpose there.
But I think sometimes we all just need
to find something to read that is maybe not in our norm.
You never know what what connections we will draw, which
Jeremy is actually one of the reasons why I always ask this question
of smart people that I meet and why I always ask it on the show.
The question you've most wanted me to ask from the very, very beginning.
Jeremy, is this Where can we learn more?
Where do you want to point people?
Where can people learn more about you, the work, the book, etc.?
Well.
So my speaking site and all that is Jeremy Cuban, Kayak.com,
which is hard to spell. There you go. Thank you.
And then Amazon has all our books
and Giant Worldwide is our actual business.
And so if you want to find out more about what we do
and how we change the world, then that's what we're to go.
Giant worldwide dot com is where
you can go to get that learn about the content that they've created
and the way that they share it and and how it might help you
or those around you. So.
Jeremy thanks so much for being here so
super glad to have you back on the show.
But before we say our goodbyes, I've got a question for everyone else
and that question for all of you.
If you've been here before, you know the question
now. What what are you going to do with this?
Maybe you have already identified a relationship
that you feel like these ideas could help you with.
Maybe you want to think differently
about the expectations that you're setting with someone or someone.
Maybe there's a specific idea that you heard today
that can help you be more effective, whatever that might be.
I'm not going to presume what that is for you, but what I am going to assume
is that if you take action on what you learned, rather than just
saying, well, this was good, it will be far more valuable for you.
I hope that you will do that.
And Jeremy, thanks again for being here.
Such a pleasure to have you.
It's a great book. Thanks, Steve.
For me and everybody, I hope that you will go out
and get your copy of the communication code.
Thanks again, Jeremy. Thanks, Kevin. Cheers.
And with that, everybody,
you know that.
We'll be back.
So make sure you come back.
So if you haven't subscribe to the podcast, make sure you do that.
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make sure that you follow us there so you get future episodes because we'll be back
next week with another episode of the Remarkable Leadership podcast.