Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
Speaker 1: I'll Never Told You production of Iheartradium, And today we
Speaker 1: are bringing back a classic that we did with Bridget
Speaker 1: around politics and misinformation and disinformation. Because we are in
Speaker 1: perpetual election season, it seems there's been a lot of
Speaker 1: headlines recently about some AI generated photos that are misleading,
Speaker 1: outright lies in some cases. And then I got this today.
Speaker 1: I got a message about this, and I think we
Speaker 1: should come back into a whole episode about it. But
Speaker 1: it was from an article called women are Getting Off
Speaker 1: birth Control a mid misinformation explosion. It's from the Washington
Speaker 1: Post and I read it and I was very concerned
Speaker 1: about it. It was all about like these lies that
Speaker 1: women are being told about birth control that they're getting
Speaker 1: from social media, largely things that are like it'll change
Speaker 1: you're attracted to. It'll be somebody who's less traditionally masculine. Yeah, no, yep,
Speaker 1: horror of horrors. I don't even know what you I
Speaker 1: know what you mean, but I'm like, really, I.
Speaker 2: Mean, I feel like they're saying like the stereotype of masculine.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it'd be that what we see is like
Speaker 3: them calling themselves alphas or just dicks exactly, and therefore
Speaker 3: how I feel, and that has nothing to do with
Speaker 3: birth well, it was kind of a birth control. I
Speaker 3: don't want to have a baby with you.
Speaker 1: Right right, That's that's about how I feel. But also
Speaker 1: like honestly threatening women that they'll gain weight, which I
Speaker 1: think is very toxic, that you should just be cycling,
Speaker 1: like timing yourmnstruation cycle for your brick control, which yea
Speaker 1: science is that's not there. And surprise, surprise, there is
Speaker 1: a very conservative push behind this, which is terrifying because
Speaker 1: everything that's going on with abortion, a lot of people
Speaker 1: have been coming in saying like I've been doing this
Speaker 1: that I've read on that I saw on social media.
Speaker 1: Now I'm pregnant and I can't get an abortion, and
Speaker 1: the doctor's sort of like I also read this quote
Speaker 1: from the article. To be anti fertility is to be
Speaker 1: anti woman. So what when we like talking about our
Speaker 1: Comstock episode we recently did. They're putting the roots down
Speaker 1: even harder now with this. They are really like trying
Speaker 1: to set the stage for what they're going to do
Speaker 1: into further making it difficult to get access to reproductive rights,
Speaker 1: to healthcare it is a bigger issue than I can
Speaker 1: talk about. Obviously, I hope in a classic intro because
Speaker 1: there's other pieces at play here for why it's exploding
Speaker 1: right now. But all that being said, we are seeing
Speaker 1: a huge wave of misinformation, so please keep that in mind.
Speaker 1: I believe our listeners are very savvy. But it's just
Speaker 1: worth saying because I've had two friends of mine tell
Speaker 1: me a piece of news lately and I was like,
Speaker 1: that doesn't seem right, and then when we got.
Speaker 2: To the bottom of it, it was not. It was
Speaker 2: not right, So can.
Speaker 1: Happen to anybody? Please be aware, yes, But in the meantime,
Speaker 1: please enjoy this classic episode.
Speaker 2: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Steffan Never Told your protection of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Today listeners.
Speaker 1: We are so excited we have such such a et
Speaker 1: episode for you, and we have such a wonderful guest,
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd, past host and host of There Are No
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet, the podcast, which you should absolutely
Speaker 1: check out, is here joining us today.
Speaker 4: Hello, I'm so excited to be here hang out with
Speaker 4: you guys during the quarantine.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, we're so excited to have you. And we're
Speaker 1: also excited because this is the first of a regularly
Speaker 1: occurring segment about women about the Internet. Would you like
Speaker 1: to describe kind of what you're envisioning for this segment.
Speaker 4: Yeah, what I'm envisioning is, you know, I'm the kind
Speaker 4: of person who is online all day, every day on Twitter,
Speaker 4: looking at memes and all of that, and from all
Speaker 4: of that time, useless time spent online stories about women,
Speaker 4: about marginalized voices about you know, how we are showing
Speaker 4: up online always occur, and so I thought the smintee
Speaker 4: listenership might appreciate going into those rabbit holes with me
Speaker 4: and talking about some of the ways that a our
Speaker 4: stories show up or don't show up.
Speaker 5: On the Internet.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, the listeners know. I'm a big fan of
Speaker 1: a good Internet rabbit hole. I like to spotlight a
Speaker 1: rabbit hole today because you never know what you'll find.
Speaker 1: And I've been like racking my brains trying to think
Speaker 1: of a clever name for this segment. So if you
Speaker 1: have any ideas on that, Bridget or any listeners have
Speaker 1: any ideas, just just I'm all ears. I love a
Speaker 1: good title for things. Yeah, I want to I want
Speaker 1: to throw much to the listeners.
Speaker 4: I bet listeners probably have some good some good ideas.
Speaker 5: I hadn't thought about that though.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, we love good title alliteration is even better, So.
Speaker 5: Alliteration can't be that yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1: And I keep saying segment, which isn't totally accurate. This
Speaker 1: is like a series, and for today, as we are
Speaker 1: in the United States, we're in this. It feels like
Speaker 1: more season is not accurate to say, but that's what
Speaker 1: most people call it. We're talking about disinformation and misinformation
Speaker 1: and election season and women and how all of that
Speaker 1: interacts correct exactly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I was partly inspired by the episode that
Speaker 4: y'all did on q Andon and women.
Speaker 5: I think that we often assume.
Speaker 4: That when things happen online, you know, the deep ball
Speaker 4: assumption is that the person online is a white male,
Speaker 4: and so as we know that is not true, we
Speaker 4: often kind of leave out this very critical and growing
Speaker 4: section of people who are having these important experiences online.
Speaker 4: And so I was really happy to see that y'all
Speaker 4: spotlighted women and QAnon and that very strange intersection there.
Speaker 5: And yeah, it was just really inspired.
Speaker 4: By the work that y'all have been doing.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's another interesting aspect too, because, as you say,
Speaker 1: a lot of the default assumptions are this internet user
Speaker 1: is white male, and even when you think of QAnon,
Speaker 1: you think white male.
Speaker 5: Exactly.
Speaker 2: It is a.
Speaker 1: Growing phenomenon that more and more women are becoming involved
Speaker 1: in QAnon and being involved online in QAnon, which is, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're not hearing too much about that, but we really
Speaker 1: should be looking into why that's going on exactly.
Speaker 6: That's what we were talking about with the major candidate
Speaker 6: that's running for the US House of Representative here in Georgia,
Speaker 6: Marjorie Green, who is a QAnon advocate and has used
Speaker 6: that as part of our platform and is winning and
Speaker 6: is winning and is most likely going to be elected
Speaker 6: because she's not being contested. The one man who was
Speaker 6: contesting her in the Democratic Party dropped out because of
Speaker 6: unknown threats. So that says a lot in itself. And
Speaker 6: that's kind of one of the things that I love
Speaker 6: that we're talking about this because not only are they
Speaker 6: playing and I say they as a broader day of
Speaker 6: QAnon and people of conspiracy theory, which originated as possibly
Speaker 6: a joke to see what they can fish fish out
Speaker 6: into this fear of motherhood and children and It's kind
Speaker 6: of just opened up this huge world of oh my god,
Speaker 6: what is happening and why are we being so misled
Speaker 6: and why does it seem to be specifically targeting women
Speaker 6: in this misinformation?
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's These are all great points.
Speaker 4: I think that you know, you brought up this connection
Speaker 4: between like QAnon and like fear of motherhood. I think
Speaker 4: that it really goes down to the fact that women
Speaker 4: often are marginalized or not supported, They're not heard, and
Speaker 4: so we have to take these issues that are very
Speaker 4: real issues in our life to the Internet, and I
Speaker 4: think that that can make us vulnerable in these like,
Speaker 4: very specific ways. Combine that with the fact that people
Speaker 4: assume that Internet users are all men.
Speaker 5: The way the very specific.
Speaker 4: Ways that women are being targeted and are vulnerable for
Speaker 4: this kind of exploitation just go unexamined, untalked about. And
Speaker 4: I think there's also an assumption that quote unquote women's
Speaker 4: spaces online, you know, uh, places like Pinterest or places
Speaker 4: like Facebook groups for moms or like anti vacs Facebook groups,
Speaker 4: things like that, there's this assumption that there's nothing worth
Speaker 4: investigating going on in these groups. But we know that
Speaker 4: this allows them to be hotbeds for disinformation and misinformation,
Speaker 4: which is actually really harmful.
Speaker 1: Yes, And actually, before we get too deep into this conversation,
Speaker 1: would you mind explaining the difference between disinformation and misinformation.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, it's a question I get a lot. So misinformation
Speaker 4: is misleading or incorrect information that leads to somebody being misled.
Speaker 4: They might not actually have, you know, bad intent, or
Speaker 4: they're not there may not they may not necessarily be
Speaker 4: like spreading bad or inaccurate information on purpose, but they
Speaker 4: are leading somebody to be misled. Disinformation, on the other hand,
Speaker 4: is nefarious intentional spread of inaccurate information. And so a
Speaker 4: good way that you can think about it is misinformation
Speaker 4: is misleading. Disinformation is a damn lie. Right, This is
Speaker 4: like someone is lying to you on purpose to cause
Speaker 4: some kind of problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we've seen a lot of that unfortunately during
Speaker 1: this election cycle. And also it's been interesting seeing kind
Speaker 1: of social media companies struggling to deal with this and
Speaker 1: hearing a lot about that in the news of you know,
Speaker 1: flagging this tweet is false or whatever. What in your
Speaker 1: experience as someone who is on the internet a lot,
Speaker 1: what kind of disinformation strategies are you seeing?
Speaker 5: So many.
Speaker 4: Right, So a big one that people are probably kind
Speaker 4: of familiar with is people will impersonate, marginalize people, oftentimes
Speaker 4: black women, to just honestly so discord and confusion. Right,
Speaker 4: So that's one when it comes to women candidates really
Speaker 4: playing into biases, so you know, spreading falsehoods about women
Speaker 4: candidates being you know, shrill or unstrustworthy or incompetent. We
Speaker 4: know these things are not grounded in fact, but these
Speaker 4: are messages that really take off on social media and
Speaker 4: I can really have a lot of a lot of
Speaker 4: a big impact. Things like cheap fakes. You know, we
Speaker 4: people are pretty familiar with deep fakes, these videos that
Speaker 4: are you know, not real or manipulated in some way,
Speaker 4: but we also have cheap fakes where a video is
Speaker 4: taken out of context and spread on social media, you know,
Speaker 4: saying as if like, oh so and so has said
Speaker 4: this thing, but actually it's a it's an out of
Speaker 4: context snippets that's a cheap fake.
Speaker 5: But all of these different ways that are.
Speaker 4: Really meant to create confusion in voters and really meant
Speaker 4: to have people, particularly women and people of color, just think, well,
Speaker 4: the system is rigged, The system is so confusing.
Speaker 5: It's so chaotic.
Speaker 4: That I'm just going to check out of the democratic
Speaker 4: process altogether. It's not worth it, right, Yeah, And you know.
Speaker 1: We've talked a lot about on this show those words
Speaker 1: that you kind of use that we see leveled at
Speaker 1: female politicians, and how ambition is like my favorite one,
Speaker 1: where like a man being ambitious is great, but a
Speaker 1: woman being ambitious Wait a minute now, And then I
Speaker 1: remember the episode you and I did bridget where about
Speaker 1: reporters in India getting slutshamed and just like waking up
Speaker 1: to an inbox full of these very disturbing images of
Speaker 1: your face on some other woman's body and some like
Speaker 1: horrific act like violence being perpetrated against you, and sharing
Speaker 1: those images with your family, with the world, with everybody,
Speaker 1: And just how like even me thinking about that that
Speaker 1: makes my just tense up, Like that's it's so awful.
Speaker 1: And I was just wondering if you could speak to
Speaker 1: sort of this gendered attack and gendered disinformation.
Speaker 5: Absolutely.
Speaker 4: There was actually a recent study by Lucina di Meco,
Speaker 4: who is a senior expert and advocate and a writer
Speaker 4: on women's leadership in gender equality. The study is called
Speaker 4: She Persisted and it really shows the ways that disinformation
Speaker 4: is so gendered, and so that's one of the reasons
Speaker 4: why it's so important to.
Speaker 5: Talk about it through this lens.
Speaker 4: You know, social media can really be a double edged
Speaker 4: sword for women in politics. On the one hand, it
Speaker 4: really allows women to have this platform to cut through
Speaker 4: chatter and have direct communication with the public, but also
Speaker 4: that is where we get these incredibly biased, gendered, sexist attacks.
Speaker 4: So the thing that you talked about with the journalist
Speaker 4: in India, sensitive images, whether they're like sometimes doctored, sometimes
Speaker 4: not real, that is a common occurrence for women running
Speaker 4: for office or women in politics in general. And I
Speaker 4: would even take it a step further and say women
Speaker 4: in public, women who speak their mind or have an
Speaker 4: opinion in public, right, Like, there is nothing people love
Speaker 4: to pile on more than a woman who has an
Speaker 4: opinion in public. And oftentimes the way that these attacks
Speaker 4: are framed are very gendered. You know, research actually shows
Speaker 4: that men, even men of color, when compared to their
Speaker 4: female colleagues of color, don't get the same kind of attacks, right,
Speaker 4: And so they're highly racialized and highly gendered.
Speaker 6: And I think it's really interesting when we talk about
Speaker 6: women of color being really ridiculed when we look at
Speaker 6: Kamala Harris and her even debate style, the fact that
Speaker 6: the matter was that she was holding back, but even
Speaker 6: with our holding back and making a few faces still
Speaker 6: made her a target as being overly disingenuous, untrustworthy, and
Speaker 6: according to Trump, a monster. Like with that, how do
Speaker 6: we actually talk about this kind of level of misogyny
Speaker 6: slash racism, especially when we're in this type of debate,
Speaker 6: especially in this type of election, Well, how do we
Speaker 6: address it? How do we make sure we call it
Speaker 6: out as we see it?
Speaker 5: Well, that's a great question.
Speaker 4: One of the organizations I work with, Ultraviolet, actually created
Speaker 4: a media guide.
Speaker 5: You can find it if you.
Speaker 4: Just google Ultraviolet Media Guide. I'm sure you can find
Speaker 4: it to help us spot and talk about these incredibly racialized,
Speaker 4: gendered attacks on not just Kamala Harris, all women of color. Right,
Speaker 4: they could often be very subtle, things like calling Kamala
Speaker 4: Harris quote aggressive.
Speaker 5: We know that's a dog whistle for.
Speaker 4: Black women who speak their mind are very assertive in
Speaker 4: their speech style. So sometimes they can be really subtle.
Speaker 4: Sometimes they can be really obvious, right, like Trump calling
Speaker 4: Kamala Harris a monster, you know, after her debate style,
Speaker 4: we know that these are just you know, especially when
Speaker 4: you think about Trump, he has a pattern of lashing
Speaker 4: out at black women when he feels attacked, and so
Speaker 4: this is nothing new from him. But I also think
Speaker 4: the media really plays a role in shaping how we
Speaker 4: talk about and think about these kinds of sexist, gendered attacks.
Speaker 4: And so one of the things that we've really been
Speaker 4: working on with Ultra Violet is trying to have a
Speaker 4: little bit of a media accountability and say, you know,
Speaker 4: if Trump says something that is a racist, sexist attack
Speaker 4: on a black woman in politics, don't put don't repeat
Speaker 4: that in the headline so that it goes all over
Speaker 4: social Because evidence shows that the more people see something,
Speaker 4: even if it's not true, they believe it. And so
Speaker 4: if Trump perpetuates a racist, sexist attack on a black woman,
Speaker 4: if a news article puts that attack in the headline
Speaker 4: and it just goes all over social media, people will
Speaker 4: start to believe that, right, even if we all know
Speaker 4: it's to be as And so really making sure that
Speaker 4: we understand and know how to spot these attacks and
Speaker 4: that we're able to hold the media accountable when they
Speaker 4: you know, unwittingly perhaps, you know, perpetuate it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I know last time you were here,
Speaker 1: you spoke about how in twenty sixteen there were these
Speaker 1: Russian actors. There was a Senate inquiry that found that
Speaker 1: these Russian actors were behind a lot of disinformation attacks
Speaker 1: that were specifically targeting black people to keep them from
Speaker 1: voting in twenty sixteen. And is that our foreign countries
Speaker 1: normally behind disinformation.
Speaker 5: That's a great question.
Speaker 4: So in that case in twenty sixteen, you know, the
Speaker 4: Senate inquiry did ton affirm that these were likely Russian assets.
Speaker 4: But I almost find that focusing on foreign entities and
Speaker 4: foreign and bad actors makes us let our guard down
Speaker 4: for the reality, which is that a lot of these
Speaker 4: tax and campaigns are actually domestic. They're you know, homegrown
Speaker 4: attacks on women and people of color. And so I
Speaker 4: think it's really important that we say, like, yes, we
Speaker 4: have documented evidence that these things happen in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 4: but also in twenty twenty. It's not just foreign actors,
Speaker 4: it's people right here in the United States who are
Speaker 4: trying to sow chaos and distrust, right.
Speaker 6: And I noticed the surge of accounts coming up with
Speaker 6: stock photos of black men or black people who are
Speaker 6: saying and it's all the same tweet essentially saying that
Speaker 6: they were no longer going to be voting for Democrats
Speaker 6: because they no a long with trust the system and
Speaker 6: now are going to be Republicans and have for the
Speaker 6: first time, you know, voted as a Republican.
Speaker 5: What is this surge?
Speaker 6: And is this kind of like the lazier form of
Speaker 6: the buye because it's obvious stock photos when you start
Speaker 6: like looking at it, but then it's kind of like, wait,
Speaker 6: why even put that effort?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's almost kind of funny when you
Speaker 4: look at it. I actually did an episode with this woman,
Speaker 4: Shapeka Hudson, who you know, she started the hashtag your
Speaker 4: slip is showing to call out some of these fake
Speaker 4: accounts posing as black people. And what's funny is that
Speaker 4: when you actually at first glance, you're like, oh, this
Speaker 4: is a suspiciously good looking black person who is leaving
Speaker 4: the Democratic Party after years, okay, But then when you
Speaker 4: actually keep looking, you think like, oh, well, this the
Speaker 4: way that he's phrased this sounds like this other tweet
Speaker 4: I saw, or oh the way that he's using you know,
Speaker 4: he's he the way that he's using like African American
Speaker 4: vernacular English just seems a little bit off. Honestly, if
Speaker 4: you dig into them and like look at them enough,
Speaker 4: I think that they have these little tells.
Speaker 5: But yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Think, you know, creating this impression that there is a
Speaker 4: mass exodus of black people from the Democratic Party by
Speaker 4: using these fake accounts. I could see how it would,
Speaker 4: you know, just be so confusing and like, I mean,
Speaker 4: he's like, you see these tweets and you're like, what's
Speaker 4: going on?
Speaker 5: I could like the ultimate goal.
Speaker 4: Was to get people to just be like, the political
Speaker 4: process doesn't make sense to me. It's so confusing. I'm
Speaker 4: not even going to be involved. And I can see
Speaker 4: how that would actually, you know, lead to that. What's
Speaker 4: funny is that in twenty sixteen, somebody sent me a
Speaker 4: link to a Twitter account that used my picture from LinkedIn,
Speaker 4: like an old headshot, and this person was saying all
Speaker 4: of these very strange things about Hillary Clinton, and you know,
Speaker 4: I flagged the account and it was taken down, But
Speaker 4: I never quite figured.
Speaker 5: Out what was going on. It just was a very
Speaker 5: weird situation.
Speaker 4: And this was way before we knew or I knew
Speaker 4: any of this, and you know, I never.
Speaker 5: I was just like, what is this?
Speaker 4: Who would who would take my LinkedIn picture, make go
Speaker 4: through the trouble of making a Twitter account and then
Speaker 4: have these like incredibly like I don't know how to
Speaker 4: put it, but incredibly fake bad like obviously not.
Speaker 5: A non black person trying to pretend to.
Speaker 4: Be a black woman kind of tweets like who would
Speaker 4: do this?
Speaker 5: Now? I know?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 6: And on top of that, as we were reading, we
Speaker 6: know Canice Owens, who has been a big proponent for
Speaker 6: Trump talking about black people for Trump, she actually created
Speaker 6: a blexit event Like that feels like a whole new
Speaker 6: level of trolling. And on top of that, admitting like
Speaker 6: allegedly paying a few of the attendees to even.
Speaker 2: Come to this event.
Speaker 5: Oh my god, what kind of level is this? And
Speaker 5: I have to say, you know, I live in Washington,
Speaker 5: d C.
Speaker 4: This happened, and this event happened at the White House.
Speaker 4: I was so sam I like all the things you
Speaker 4: just said, yes, yes, yes, But also I was so
Speaker 4: curious when that event was happening because I'm thinking, you know,
Speaker 4: there's still a pandemic. You have a group of black
Speaker 4: people who are you know disproportionately impacted by COVID you
Speaker 4: group'im on the White House lawn?
Speaker 5: Who knows? Max? Who knows? Right?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 5: Who knows?
Speaker 4: I was furious to see that, literally imber thinking from
Speaker 4: what I understand, people got there lodging and.
Speaker 5: Meals paid for by attending the event.
Speaker 4: The idea of these people being like unleashed on my
Speaker 4: city and going into restaurants.
Speaker 5: I was furious, furious.
Speaker 6: As you should be because that's irritating as well. But
Speaker 6: speaking of canus Owens, I didn't want to kind of
Speaker 6: talk about her whole play because it again coming back
Speaker 6: to Kamala Harris and just anyone in person of color
Speaker 6: in general coming out attacking Kamala for not being black enough,
Speaker 6: not being Indian enough, not being able to qualify as
Speaker 6: this type of person and able to speak and say yes,
Speaker 6: I am a person who is making kind of headway
Speaker 6: and trying to be in leadership. Why do you think
Speaker 6: that this type of rhetoric is not only harmful but
Speaker 6: can work in some cases in deterring people to vote
Speaker 6: for her.
Speaker 4: Well, I think that we just really don't understand how
Speaker 4: to talk about race and ethnicity and our heritages. I
Speaker 4: really don't like Candice Owen, but you know, she tweeted,
Speaker 4: I am so excited that they get to watch Kamala Harris,
Speaker 4: who swore into Congress as a quote Indian American, now
Speaker 4: plays a black woman card all the way to November, right,
Speaker 4: Like I have to say, if you were someone who
Speaker 4: was hell bent on misrepresenting people's identity to weaponize it
Speaker 4: against them, that's effective, right, And so.
Speaker 5: I think that she really I think that people.
Speaker 4: Like Owen really play into the fact that people don't understand,
Speaker 4: you know, people's identities in this country. The idea that
Speaker 4: Kamala Harris, you know, her identity can contain multiple things.
Speaker 4: That's how identities work. We don't have a lot of
Speaker 4: I think that people don't really necessarily understand how to
Speaker 4: talk about that, and so it leaves the issue very
Speaker 4: vulnerable to be exploited by people who you know, want
Speaker 4: to weaponize someone's actually like someone's identity, like who they are.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: Kamala Harris has been even before she was in the
Speaker 4: national spotlight, has been so clear about the ways her
Speaker 4: Indian American heritage and her you know, African American heritage
Speaker 4: have really made her the person that she is, you know,
Speaker 4: grounded her in her identity, and that's so beautiful and
Speaker 4: so rich, and honestly, it's such an expression of I
Speaker 4: would say, the platonic ideal of America, that someone could
Speaker 4: have different identities and those identities could enrich them and
Speaker 4: become part of who they are and their legacy. To
Speaker 4: tear that down and then try to reframe that to
Speaker 4: weaponize it against somebody I think is so like vile,
Speaker 4: but unfortunately it's effective.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And speaking of Kamala Harris, I know that when
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, forever ago, we saw these attacks on Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 1: I remember being, oh my gosh, back.
Speaker 2: When you could go out and do things.
Speaker 1: I was at a rally and somebody had a sign
Speaker 1: for Hillary Clinton and this was a college in Atlanta.
Speaker 2: That said like go back to the kitchen.
Speaker 1: So how would you say, like the difference, what differences
Speaker 1: do you see in these attacks on Hillary Clinton and
Speaker 1: the attacks on Kamala Harris.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say, you know, I remember those attacks
Speaker 4: on Senator Clinton.
Speaker 5: You know, oh gosh, I mean it seems like forever.
Speaker 4: Ago now, but you know, so many gendered attacks, like
Speaker 4: do you remember when she had pneumonia and people acted
Speaker 4: like she was, you know, one foot in the grade
Speaker 4: that store.
Speaker 6: Yeah, she needed to quit, immediately, quit campaigning, quit everything
Speaker 6: because she was about.
Speaker 5: To die exactly. I mean, yeah, people, it's just so simple.
Speaker 4: People just don't like women, right, And so definitely she
Speaker 4: we all saw it. She had these incredibly gendered attacks
Speaker 4: on her character. But I think when it comes to
Speaker 4: you know, Kamala Harris, I think whenever you occupy intersecting identity,
Speaker 4: So if you're a woman and you're also black or
Speaker 4: you know, whatever intersection intersecting identities you have, that always
Speaker 4: makes attacks more salient, right, because people are exploiting your
Speaker 4: identity to create this sort of layered attack. And so
Speaker 4: she's not just being attacked because she's a person of color.
Speaker 4: She's not just being attacked because she's a woman. She's
Speaker 4: being attacked because she's a woman of color. And it
Speaker 4: has the added problem of the fact that if we
Speaker 4: don't really know how to talk about race, and so
Speaker 4: these attacks often go overlooked. It's almost kind of like
Speaker 4: a gas lighting, right that she could be the recipient
Speaker 4: of these gendered, racist attacks. But that because we don't
Speaker 4: know how to talk about race, we would pretend that
Speaker 4: they're not happening right when we're not talking about them.
Speaker 4: And so I think that that it's always going to
Speaker 4: be you know, it's hard for women, but I think
Speaker 4: that for women of color it will always be disproportionately
Speaker 4: more difficult.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I it's strange because twenty sixteen does feel
Speaker 1: so long ago, but it also feels like the specter
Speaker 1: that's just like hanging over and it's I've seen arguments
Speaker 1: still to this day of people being so hurt and
Speaker 1: understandably so from that election. And that was, at least
Speaker 1: in my case, one of the first instances I got.
Speaker 1: I was familiar with disinformation, and especially on online social media.
Speaker 2: As we are.
Speaker 1: Entering twenty twenty, the people are voting now I voted,
Speaker 1: what strategies?
Speaker 2: How do you think it will be different?
Speaker 1: How do you think disinformation will be different in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty or what what do you think what do you
Speaker 1: expect is going to happen in the realm of disinformation
Speaker 1: and this twenty twenty election?
Speaker 6: And can I add to this too, because now we're
Speaker 6: also seeing not only disinformation from outside people, we're seeing
Speaker 6: it directly from the source of our president at this
Speaker 6: point in time, that he's retweeting things in disinformation, real
Speaker 6: disinformation that are harmful to many people out there, and
Speaker 6: we see that as contant. He's getting on the damn
Speaker 6: phone with people and going off rants with disinformation that
Speaker 6: is being heard by instead of social media just being
Speaker 6: by the forties fifty year old boomers, like the senior citizens,
Speaker 6: who may truly believe what he is saying and ranting about.
Speaker 6: Can you talk about that as well, and how that
Speaker 6: is affecting this year's election as opposed to what it
Speaker 6: was before.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, Sam, your point is so accurate. With
Speaker 4: Trump in the White House, it is like a disinformation
Speaker 4: super spreader of like event every day. You know, there
Speaker 4: was just a study I can't remember the exact study,
Speaker 4: but I can find it that said that Trump is
Speaker 4: the number one spreader of COVID disinformation and misinformation, right,
Speaker 4: And so think about that something that could impact someone's health,
Speaker 4: something that in like physically harm communities. He is the
Speaker 4: number one person who is spreading it, right, things about
Speaker 4: false cures, things about you know, like when he when
Speaker 4: he talked about how like like just in like completely incorrect,
Speaker 4: harmful information. And so I think what's different this year
Speaker 4: is that we do have someone who is has proven
Speaker 4: time and time and time again that he is not
Speaker 4: above spreading disinformation and misinformation, no matter how harmful it is.
Speaker 5: And so I think that is a real difference.
Speaker 4: You know, one of the things I've seen in my
Speaker 4: research on disinformation is the way that when Trump tweets something,
Speaker 4: it can get picked up on so quickly and spread
Speaker 4: so fast, right, And so I think that's a real
Speaker 4: difference that we are going to have to contend with
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty, that we have someone who is so
Speaker 4: powerful and has such a huge megaphone and has so
Speaker 4: many people's ears, like you said, you know, spreading this
Speaker 4: information that could really get somebody hurt and really impacts
Speaker 4: our democracy. I think I would say another thing that
Speaker 4: we are seeing a lot of in twenty twenty that
Speaker 4: I think has gotten worse is bad actors' willingness to
Speaker 4: exploit existing fractures in our communities. And so, you know,
Speaker 4: I did an episode of my show There Are No
Speaker 4: Girls on the Internet about Vanessa Yinn, the soldier who
Speaker 4: was killed, and you know that was during that happened
Speaker 4: during earlier in the summer, when we had all of
Speaker 4: these uprisings for you know, black lives, folks like Breonna
Speaker 4: Taylor and George Floyd. And we saw bad actors online
Speaker 4: putting these messages on huge Facebook pages with lots and
Speaker 4: lots and lots of reach, saying things like why should
Speaker 4: the LATINX community support the Black community when quote they
Speaker 4: killed one of.
Speaker 5: Our own, right, And so everybody knows that.
Speaker 4: Marginalized communities are stronger when we work together, but it's
Speaker 4: very savvy how they exploit these existing fractures in communities
Speaker 4: to continue to cause chaos and spread confusion, right. And
Speaker 4: so I think that in twenty twenty, we've seen a
Speaker 4: lot more willingness.
Speaker 5: Of bad actors to exploit really.
Speaker 4: Sensitive topics, topics that take nuance or thoughtfulness to discuss publicly,
Speaker 4: and just collapsing them into you know, us against.
Speaker 5: Them, or this is why we shouldn't vote.
Speaker 4: Democrat, or these things that divide us instead of unite
Speaker 4: us because we're so much stronger when we're united.
Speaker 1: We have some more for you listeners, but first we
Speaker 1: have a quick break for word from our sponsor, and
Speaker 1: we're back.
Speaker 2: Thank you sponsored.
Speaker 6: As you're talking about the issue with the one marginalized
Speaker 6: group up pitted against another in order to break down
Speaker 6: and divide of I've just recently read an article talking
Speaker 6: about how men in the Latino community are there's a
Speaker 6: big chunk of them that are voting for Trump because
Speaker 6: the appeal of his matismo, as they say, is like
Speaker 6: that the manliness of his appeal has actually spoken to
Speaker 6: this group of people. And I find that very interesting
Speaker 6: because we see that played time and time again as
Speaker 6: where he's exploited that I'm a man's man in order
Speaker 6: to get these votes and get this louder vote, and
Speaker 6: even to the point that we have groups that are
Speaker 6: talking about make women great again.
Speaker 5: Have you seen this?
Speaker 6: No, So it's this whole campaign where they are there's
Speaker 6: a group of men, right wing men who are going
Speaker 6: around trying to take money for women to come to
Speaker 6: conventions to be taught to be womanly, feminine and back
Speaker 6: into the original role of what women should be.
Speaker 5: But it's kind of they've taken.
Speaker 6: This huge art on being who they are and playing
Speaker 6: on it because of this new found need to have
Speaker 6: this conversation about we need to be more manly but
Speaker 6: community and Trump is getting us to be mainly again.
Speaker 6: Have you seen this as a part of like a
Speaker 6: push in this disinformation. Is this manly machismo kind of rhetoric.
Speaker 4: Oh, first of all, I just have to I have
Speaker 4: to ask, like, what the hell kind of things do
Speaker 4: you think they're teaching women in these trainings?
Speaker 6: Like I oh, oh my gosh, I think it's like
Speaker 6: how much money was like ten thousand dollars. It was
Speaker 6: at their Florida convention, ten thousand dollars, and then they
Speaker 6: gave this march huge marked down price and it's just
Speaker 6: like ten men talking to women about being feminine.
Speaker 5: Oh my god.
Speaker 4: If I if I could like wear like dress up
Speaker 4: in some sort of disguise.
Speaker 5: And go to one of these with like a camera,
Speaker 5: Oh my god, look out.
Speaker 4: It's such a good question, though, I think that, you know,
Speaker 4: you make such a good point. I think that it
Speaker 4: really comes down to Trump's willingness and effectiveness at exploiting
Speaker 4: these biases that exist in our society, so biases around women,
Speaker 4: misconceptions of like what it is to be like.
Speaker 5: A manly man or a womanly woman. You know.
Speaker 4: I think that Trump is very effective at exploiting these things.
Speaker 4: And the reason why they work is because these old
Speaker 4: these old school stereotypical notions of what it means to
Speaker 4: be a woman, what it means to be a man,
Speaker 4: all of these sort of traditional ideas.
Speaker 5: They have been baked into our society for so long.
Speaker 4: I mean you you all do such a good job
Speaker 4: of breaking them down every week.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: We know that these things have staying power, and that's
Speaker 4: why they're so effective for people at Trump and these
Speaker 4: this group of whoever who is who was like charging
Speaker 4: ten thousand dollars also talk about that price point that
Speaker 4: is a lot of money.
Speaker 6: That might be over exaggerating, but it was a lot
Speaker 6: of money, and I was like, who the hell is
Speaker 6: going to pay this?
Speaker 5: What? I know?
Speaker 4: I'm so curious. I would love to get a syllabus
Speaker 4: for this.
Speaker 6: Court web page and it's yeah, it's incredible. But yeah,
Speaker 6: there's also this whole level of him coming after suburban wives.
Speaker 6: Literally at the recent rally, he is begging suburban women,
Speaker 6: please vote for me, please like me. I'm trying to
Speaker 6: make your community safe again.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think it really just goes back to his willingness
Speaker 4: to try to exploit these very traditional ideas of.
Speaker 5: What women want.
Speaker 4: I'm not going to sit here and say that I
Speaker 4: think that Trump has any kind of a good read
Speaker 4: on what women want. But I think it's like his
Speaker 4: him trying to him, assuming that he does, and trying
Speaker 4: to trying to exploit that.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: It really makes me think about how in earlier waves
Speaker 4: of the alt right and things like that, organizing online,
Speaker 4: all the ways that they were kind of appealing to
Speaker 4: manly men who were sick of these like soy boy,
Speaker 4: betas right it really it really, I mean gender the
Speaker 4: jet like gender norms are our mother fer That's all
Speaker 4: I can say, right, it really, really we are so
Speaker 4: our society is it's so bake into our society in
Speaker 4: these toxic, harmful ways that watching them play out on
Speaker 4: you know, the election stage or in politics or online
Speaker 4: in these ways, it's just so it's just truly so bizarre.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 6: On top of that, as we're sitting here talking about it,
Speaker 6: I have kind of named off every person that he's
Speaker 6: been begging to notice him, whether it's using token black
Speaker 6: people in order to get them into line and not
Speaker 6: doing the blexit, or appealing to suburban women. But the
Speaker 6: one group of people that he's really not talked to
Speaker 6: or actually even notice are typically marginalized women women of color,
Speaker 6: specifically black women.
Speaker 4: Oh of course, right, if you look at the numbers
Speaker 4: of black women who voted for Trump, we knew better.
Speaker 4: Like black women were not falling for it, you know,
Speaker 4: and I mean they always It's almost like a cliche
Speaker 4: at this point when we talk about politics, like listen
Speaker 4: to black women, black women do we do know what's up?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 4: But like whatever he was selling, we were not buying.
Speaker 4: We see him attack black women, our sisters, like Kamala Harris,
Speaker 4: like White House correspondent, you, michelsondor, you know, like April Ryan.
Speaker 4: We see him attack our sisters every day. There's just
Speaker 4: we're not We're not We're not going to do it.
Speaker 4: Like there's nothing We're not buying what he's selling.
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 4: It is funny that it's like he's he's he realizes
Speaker 4: like I'm not gonna win with them.
Speaker 5: It may I may as well just cut my losses.
Speaker 6: You really, he's like literally just like throws his hands up,
Speaker 6: like never mind.
Speaker 5: Next.
Speaker 6: It's really interesting when you really focus on his his
Speaker 6: goals and you're.
Speaker 5: Like, oh, we see who you're afraid of exactly.
Speaker 2: I do want to add in here too.
Speaker 1: One idea I was reading about this a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago.
Speaker 2: And it's just really stuck with me.
Speaker 1: Is if you look at the here in the United States,
Speaker 1: the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, there's almost been
Speaker 1: a masculinization and a feminization of like masculinization of the
Speaker 1: Republican Party, feminization of the Democratic Party, and just seeing
Speaker 1: that play out, and and the Republican Party really really
Speaker 1: leaning into that because in our society, masculine is better, Right,
Speaker 1: be aggressive, be rude, tell women that they belong in
Speaker 1: the kitchen or whatever whatever, because you're speaking your mind,
Speaker 1: and that's okay. But that is something that I've been
Speaker 1: thinking about a lot, and I feel like I am witnessing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, just look at the way that they
Speaker 4: talked about masks at the debate between Trump and Biden, Right,
Speaker 4: Biden wore a mask his people he was with war masks.
Speaker 4: I think it was a Republican commentator Tommy laren or
Speaker 4: I don't know if that's her name, however you say it,
Speaker 4: who tweeted something around along the lines of nice mask,
Speaker 4: Biden may as well carry a purse what?
Speaker 6: And this was after Trump and them tested positive.
Speaker 4: Right, Like, do do some of these Republicans think that
Speaker 4: you can be manlier than a virus, like you can
Speaker 4: be you can sort of out masculine a contagion. What
Speaker 4: do they think this this this equation with people on
Speaker 4: the left with like feminization. So if you are wearing
Speaker 4: a mask because you want to protect you and your
Speaker 4: and your the people around you, that's you know, you
Speaker 4: may as well be carrying a purse, right, you know
Speaker 4: this idea that being I mean, they've they've even shown
Speaker 4: that one of the big problems when it comes to
Speaker 4: COVID is that men don't feel manly when they wear
Speaker 4: a mask, so they don't And just think about how
Speaker 4: how how sick that is, how how toxic that traditional
Speaker 4: gender roles?
Speaker 5: When when when, when like taken to.
Speaker 4: This level, how harmful it is that people are willing
Speaker 4: to get sick and make others sick just to conform
Speaker 4: to these rigid ideas of gender. Is it really is
Speaker 4: so sad, like gender is a hell of a drug.
Speaker 6: Really, I mean, it really is kind of funny because
Speaker 6: they did make this a masculine thing, to the point
Speaker 6: that when Trump was sick and came back, they were like,
Speaker 6: he beat it, He's a real man.
Speaker 5: He out did this and he's.
Speaker 6: Too strong for that, like literally putting on these things
Speaker 6: as of he fought in a wrestling match and beat
Speaker 6: a world champion, like it was that level.
Speaker 5: And that's what people were pushing.
Speaker 6: Even to the point that he's talking about being immune
Speaker 6: and of course spreading more disinformation, causing this whole conversation
Speaker 6: about wanting to kiss people, which is a whole different
Speaker 6: weirdness that I was like, what is happening? But all
Speaker 6: of that to say is like it has become this
Speaker 6: fine line. And it started at the very beginning of
Speaker 6: the virus, like at the very beginning when they're like
Speaker 6: this could be preventative, let's try this, it became a
Speaker 6: a is a female versus male thing, it's a feminine
Speaker 6: versus a masculine thing. And it's played even deeper as
Speaker 6: more and more, over two hundred and what fifteen thousand
Speaker 6: people have died in our country and it's kind of like,
Speaker 6: what is happening in this point as well as the
Speaker 6: fact that the majority of people who are really affected
Speaker 6: is the black community, is the elderly community, are those
Speaker 6: with morbidities, and why are we seeing that as a week?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought this up. I hate
Speaker 4: that so much. I think that there's so much wrong
Speaker 4: with this equating. You know.
Speaker 5: So if you follow that logic.
Speaker 4: That Trump is strong because he was able to quote
Speaker 4: unquote beat COVID, you know, so whatever you know, does
Speaker 4: that mean that the over two hundred thousand people that
Speaker 4: we have lost were week And I also think it
Speaker 4: really plays into this ablest trope around sickness, around healthy bodies.
Speaker 4: You know, I really I hate the way that we
Speaker 4: talk about it. I truly do. And I think we
Speaker 4: saw it at the beginning of the pandemic when the
Speaker 4: party line or the standard line was only the sick
Speaker 4: and weak will die, and there was this sort of
Speaker 4: implication of you know, A, they're expendable and B there
Speaker 4: was a sort of unsaid vibe at least that I
Speaker 4: felt like I saw where it's like, wouldn't we be
Speaker 4: better off without them anyway?
Speaker 5: You know? And I just think that like it really.
Speaker 4: Played into these incredibly disturbing ablest tropes around you know,
Speaker 4: whose lives are valuable and whose aren't, and who's are
Speaker 4: expendable and who's aren't. Just because you're somebody who is
Speaker 4: older or somebody who is you know, chronically ill.
Speaker 5: Your life matters. You deserve to live a fulfilling.
Speaker 4: And enriching life. You're not expendable in society. People talking
Speaker 4: about like their grandparents. Just because your your grandparent is
Speaker 4: elderly doesn't mean that they can just.
Speaker 5: Die and it's fine.
Speaker 4: I really, I really have a big problem with the
Speaker 4: way that the way that that was framed early on,
Speaker 4: and certainly the way that Trump talking about COVID as
Speaker 4: you beat it like as if it was a wrestling match,
Speaker 4: the way that that kind of played into it, I.
Speaker 5: Really really hate it.
Speaker 6: Right, and then again him counting this whole herd immunity,
Speaker 6: which the World Health Organization just was like, police, this
Speaker 6: is unethical and immoral to play pretend like this is okay,
Speaker 6: because what you're saying in the herd immunity mentality is
Speaker 6: people should die and they'll be okay. That literally giving
Speaker 6: permission to kill off people because they're not quote unquote
Speaker 6: strong enough when in actuality, we don't know who is
Speaker 6: affected exactly why. I mean, we obviously know that some
Speaker 6: of the people who have been affected, with not some
Speaker 6: a lot of people who have been affected have com
Speaker 6: abilities and have died. Doesn't mean they should have died,
Speaker 6: doesn't mean they would have been dead without that. This
Speaker 6: is kind of the argument that I've had to have
Speaker 6: with people. I'm like, yeah, but tell me this, because
Speaker 6: the same argument that was like, well, everybody's dying of
Speaker 6: COVID nowadays, even if it's not COVID, they're just putting
Speaker 6: it on death certificate. So I'm like, but tell me this.
Speaker 6: If it wasn't for COVID, would they be alive right now? Well, yeah, okay, then,
Speaker 6: oh my god. It's this whole mentality.
Speaker 4: Bless you for entertaining these conversations and trying to inform
Speaker 4: the masses a loss of.
Speaker 6: My family, to be honest, But anyway, uh yeah, that's
Speaker 6: just such a whole big thing. But it kind of
Speaker 6: comes down to once again this whole like masculine versus
Speaker 6: feminine point of view and why we continue to have
Speaker 6: to have a fight about what's wrong and what's right,
Speaker 6: and we know, let's talk about the current Supreme Court
Speaker 6: hearing in confirmation is the fact that there is a
Speaker 6: lot at stake, especially for marginalized people, most likely for
Speaker 6: mar Yeah, absolutely, can we talk about this whole like
Speaker 6: they're trying to make her a hero because she is
Speaker 6: a mom who has adopted black children, which I want
Speaker 6: to vomit, but just go ahead and add that there
Speaker 6: be because that's nothing more infuriating than tokenizing children because
Speaker 6: the family may have done something that is just fine
Speaker 6: and responsible, and it is that something you're called to
Speaker 6: do and if you find yourself in a good place
Speaker 6: that you can adopt these wonderful children that need Holmes
Speaker 6: was great, But we also know that a lot of
Speaker 6: times this comes with white savior complex, which has a
Speaker 6: lot of implications and a lot of trauma behind this.
Speaker 6: And now we're seeing it played as her plant being
Speaker 6: the hero and they're touting her.
Speaker 5: As a new RBG.
Speaker 6: Can we talk about how social media is kind of
Speaker 6: helping in this rhetoric.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's funny that you say this.
Speaker 4: So my in one of my day jobs, I'm working
Speaker 4: with feminist groups and women's groups to you know, track
Speaker 4: this and you know, keep an eye on how messages
Speaker 4: about her are being framed online. And you're exactly right
Speaker 4: that she is being framed as this feminist hero. And listen,
Speaker 4: Sam to your point about the way that she has
Speaker 4: been framed as a hero for adopting black children. I mean,
Speaker 4: just one proximity to blackness does not make someone anti racist.
Speaker 4: So being so saying like I have an adopted black daughter,
Speaker 4: I have a black you know spouse, I have black friends.
Speaker 4: Obviously that doesn't make somebody anti racist. And two, what
Speaker 4: really makes me sad is that that thinking, the thinking
Speaker 4: that she is a hero for adopting black children, it
Speaker 4: really just it really leaves out the adopted kids.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: I just really hate the way that when we have
Speaker 4: these conversations, they often cent her, the white person who
Speaker 4: adopts did children you know, their story, you know, as
Speaker 4: a hero, or their story as someone who you know,
Speaker 4: did this great thing, And it really just leads doesn't
Speaker 4: leave a lot of room for the agency of the kids.
Speaker 4: And I think that like most people who I know
Speaker 4: who have adopted children for them, they say, you know, oh,
Speaker 4: don't tell me that my kids are so lucky that
Speaker 4: I adopted them. We are the lucky ones that we
Speaker 4: adopted our kids. And I think that most people who
Speaker 4: have adopted kids really want to center their kids and
Speaker 4: not make it seem like they's some kind of a
Speaker 4: hero for what.
Speaker 5: They did, right. I think it's fun.
Speaker 6: I found it interesting because one of the first things
Speaker 6: I saw about her was of course a misleading post.
Speaker 6: Not misleading, it was misleading because they posted a picture
Speaker 6: of her sister instead of her and their black children,
Speaker 6: which I.
Speaker 5: Hilarious, just walk about.
Speaker 6: You can't even find their like hell family, I mean,
Speaker 6: come on, But that's the first thing they wanted to
Speaker 6: tell was well, obviously she can't be racist because she
Speaker 6: has two children. Obviously she uh is anti choice because
Speaker 6: she believes an adoption. And of course I am adopted
Speaker 6: as well, And I get told that often to my face,
Speaker 6: that I should be anti choice because I was, you know, saved,
Speaker 6: because I wasn't aborted, And I'm like, well, no, there's
Speaker 6: a whole lot of other complications to that story, and
Speaker 6: we won't we won't go there. But being told that
Speaker 6: you should be grateful and having these things, but honestly
Speaker 6: putting this on a platform and making her the idealist.
Speaker 6: But we know that, uh, the white couple that actually
Speaker 6: drove the children off the cliff and killed themselves and
Speaker 6: the children with them. We see things like that which
Speaker 6: doesn't always happen. I talked about a family recently who
Speaker 6: are YouTube families, adopted an Asian child who was autistic
Speaker 6: and then gave them away.
Speaker 5: I remember that. I remember that.
Speaker 4: And what's what's a lot about that story is that
Speaker 4: when they were trying to adopt their child, Hutsley, they
Speaker 4: gave him a new name, but they chose was Huxley.
Speaker 4: They were before that, they were on message boards asking
Speaker 4: people were looking to adopt someone from another country who
Speaker 4: has disabilities, but as they put it, like disabilities that
Speaker 4: are easier to manage, you know, like they were it
Speaker 4: seemed as if they were trying to gear upon Yeah,
Speaker 4: they were hand picking.
Speaker 5: You know, their child for what.
Speaker 4: It seems like we want to get, we want to
Speaker 4: get the attention that comes with this, but we don't
Speaker 4: want it to be that hard. Like I really that story.
Speaker 4: Not to go off on a tangent, but that story
Speaker 4: just broke my heart. It really broke my heart. When
Speaker 4: people say things like this to your face about how
Speaker 4: you must feel about abortion because you're someone who was adopted.
Speaker 5: What like what is that like? Like, what is your response?
Speaker 6: Oh girl, this is a whole big conversation. But a
Speaker 6: lot of I mean a lot of this has to
Speaker 6: do with the anxiety of being having an imposter syndrome
Speaker 6: and being told this is about what I should feel
Speaker 6: and when I am against it or what I don't
Speaker 6: feel that way, having to backtrack and explain myself even
Speaker 6: more because I feel like I have to justify something
Speaker 6: that shouldn't have to be automatically justified. That makes sense, Yeah,
Speaker 6: and so yeah, it's this is a whole narrative that's
Speaker 6: placed on me that I'm like, grew up with saying yes,
Speaker 6: I'm so grateful, I'm so grateful, don't say anything bad,
Speaker 6: don't say anything bad, and then waking up as an
Speaker 6: adult be like that sucked. Some of these things are
Speaker 6: really bad and having to acknowledge that. And that's kind
Speaker 6: of the thing. Is like when you sit here in
Speaker 6: the background and she's not necessarily she because I can't
Speaker 6: say she did it, but whoever is trying to push
Speaker 6: her forward as a saint is using her children as
Speaker 6: the narrative, as subjects, as tokens for her her. It's
Speaker 6: an incredibly distraught type of moment of like, what the
Speaker 6: hell are you doing? You're using these kids without knowing
Speaker 6: what the hell is happening behind behind the scenes, and.
Speaker 4: Kids aren't props, you know, kids aren't props. To further
Speaker 4: some rhetorical message or you know idea. It's just it's
Speaker 4: so like I said, I just feel I feel bad
Speaker 4: for kids who have to whose stories get reduced in
Speaker 4: public in this way. And I can't even imagine what
Speaker 4: that feels like.
Speaker 6: Right well, I mean, just now that I've gone on
Speaker 6: my tangent, just to go back, it's kind of incredible
Speaker 6: to see how social media has been pushing her this way,
Speaker 6: even the White House tweets have been pushing her in
Speaker 6: this way of trying to a make acb happen, as
Speaker 6: if she is the new you know, Ruth Bader, and
Speaker 6: I'm like, no, stop it and be trying to hide
Speaker 6: any of her past stuff, including the several conversations and
Speaker 6: seminars that she was a part of that was very
Speaker 6: anti choice. And it's kind of interesting to see how
Speaker 6: the social media narrative has really dwindled it down to
Speaker 6: making her the hero.
Speaker 4: Oh yes, oh yes, And I think that you know,
Speaker 4: I like if you if like so. The hearing is
Speaker 4: going on today right now as we're as we're recording this,
Speaker 4: and I checked into it earlier, and the conversation on
Speaker 4: social media one is really being dominated by folks on
Speaker 4: the right who are doing exactly that. And so I
Speaker 4: do think that they are just kind of hitting this message,
Speaker 4: like you know, the idea that if you say something
Speaker 4: a million times, it kind of makes it seem true.
Speaker 4: They're just continuing to hit this message like she is
Speaker 4: the new feminist hero. Isn't it great that we that
Speaker 4: we get to, you know, have this new feminist hero.
Speaker 4: Something that someone said when RBG died is that so
Speaker 4: many of the things, the specific policies and things that
Speaker 4: RBG gave us, you know, things that have made not
Speaker 4: just the lives of women, but everybody better. It's like
Speaker 4: RBG opened the door, and now the person who is
Speaker 4: trying to take her place is shutting.
Speaker 5: That door for so many of us. And it's just
Speaker 5: it's like twisting the knife.
Speaker 6: Man.
Speaker 5: I don't know, it's so it's so hard.
Speaker 4: It's been a rough it's been I mean not to
Speaker 4: be too dramatic, but when.
Speaker 5: RBG died, it was.
Speaker 4: The cherry on like it felt like the cherry on
Speaker 4: a sandwich of a year. Like that's the one I
Speaker 4: can say it.
Speaker 1: We have a little bit more for you listeners, but
Speaker 1: first we have one more quick break.
Speaker 2: For word from our sponsor and er back, Thank you, sponsor.
Speaker 6: What are some things that we can do to stop
Speaker 6: some of this misinformation from being spread right now?
Speaker 4: Well, the most important thing to think about is, you know,
Speaker 4: there's so much disinformation and misinformation out there. The most
Speaker 4: important thing that all of us, anybody listening.
Speaker 5: Right now, can do is to become.
Speaker 4: A trusted source of accurate and positive information. Right so,
Speaker 4: you know, make sure that the people in your community
Speaker 4: have the accurate information they need to vote, make sure
Speaker 4: that they understand what they're voting for, who they're voting for,
Speaker 4: make sure that they have that information, and kind of
Speaker 4: become an influencer.
Speaker 5: In your own little pocket of the internet.
Speaker 4: Even if you only have five ten followers, somebody on
Speaker 4: your timeline, whether it's your family member, your friend, probably
Speaker 4: look to you and.
Speaker 5: Thinks this person knows what they're talking about.
Speaker 4: I can count on this person to provide accurate information.
Speaker 4: So focus on, you know, becoming that person in your
Speaker 4: online community.
Speaker 5: And really that is a good the most.
Speaker 4: Important thing we can all do to inoculate our communities
Speaker 4: against disinformation. Another important thing to note is you don't
Speaker 4: want to inadvertently help disinformation or misinformation spread.
Speaker 5: I see this all the time on social media.
Speaker 4: Because of the way that social media works, it's algorithm based.
Speaker 4: People you know, will see a tweet that's wrong or
Speaker 4: misleading and they'll retweet it to debunk it. But because
Speaker 4: the algorithm is just like pushing it into more people's
Speaker 4: feed so you're actually helping it grow. So never retweet,
Speaker 4: never share, even if it's to debunk it, because you're
Speaker 4: only going to make it grow. So instead focus on
Speaker 4: just posting positive information and accurate information about how people
Speaker 4: can vote and make sure that folks know, make sure
Speaker 4: that people have the information they need to vote in
Speaker 4: these new, these different ways that we're doing it now,
Speaker 4: vote by mail, all of that, make sure that they
Speaker 4: have the information they need to do it safely, and
Speaker 4: just focus on putting that message out.
Speaker 2: Oh those are great tips.
Speaker 1: What are there any resources you want to shout out
Speaker 1: or any groups you want to shout out who are
Speaker 1: particularly fighting disinformation right now?
Speaker 4: Well, Ultraviolet, a groups that I work with, is really
Speaker 4: doing a lot of work to make sure that just people,
Speaker 4: you know, everyday people have the information they need to
Speaker 4: you know, not make disinformation spread. Also, groups like the
Speaker 4: Pen America Foundation are putting together guides. Sam you mentioned
Speaker 4: that you often have conversations with your family if you're
Speaker 4: someone who's listening and you're like, yes, I know this,
Speaker 4: but my wild uncle posts wild things in the group
Speaker 4: chat or on the WhatsApp group or on Facebook.
Speaker 5: Pen America Foundation has a great.
Speaker 4: Guide about how to talk to the people in your
Speaker 4: community about their use or spread of disinformation or misinformation,
Speaker 4: Because nobody wants to be the person that's like getting
Speaker 4: into a long ass Facebook back and forth with your
Speaker 4: uncle that you're going to see at Thanksgiving and it's
Speaker 4: going to get awkward, and everybody's going to be seeing it.
Speaker 4: Like nobody wants that. There are better ways to do it,
Speaker 4: So definitely check out pen America's guide.
Speaker 2: Love it are there.
Speaker 1: What do you think like social media companies should be
Speaker 1: doing to deal with all of this?
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I mean they've pretty much done nothing,
Speaker 4: so I think they could start by doing something. You know,
Speaker 4: I think we really have to have a real reckoning
Speaker 4: around the ways that social media platforms like Facebook and
Speaker 4: Twitter have allowed disinformation to run rampant and really cause
Speaker 4: chaos and our democracy. So at the very base level,
Speaker 4: I would love to see, you know, Facebook be more
Speaker 4: transparent about their policies and how they are enforced. Enforce
Speaker 4: their existing policies that are on the book, you know,
Speaker 4: every now and then when they have some sort of
Speaker 4: big pr disaster like that kid out in Kenosha who
Speaker 4: shocked those two protesters and used Facebook events to organize
Speaker 4: you know, come to arms or you know, beare arms rally,
Speaker 4: that event went against their policies. So you know, it's
Speaker 4: difficult to trust Facebook when they come and say like, oh,
Speaker 4: we're gonna have a new policy, we're gonna crack out
Speaker 4: on this, or that they should be enforcing their existing
Speaker 4: policies and you know, having more transparency around how those
Speaker 4: policies are enforced. So that's the very baseline thing they
Speaker 4: can do to help prevent the spread of harmful disinformation
Speaker 4: and misinformation and also violence on their platforms.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And I hope that. I hope that happens
Speaker 1: because I know all of us are being exposed to
Speaker 1: this more and more, and we have people we care
Speaker 1: about being exposed to it more and more. And I
Speaker 1: hope that next time you're on show, Bridget our conversation
Speaker 1: is more positive and upbeat.
Speaker 5: I don't know where.
Speaker 2: We'll be in a month from now.
Speaker 1: But fingers crossed, fingers crossed.
Speaker 5: I hope so too. I hope so too.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, so thank you so much for being
Speaker 1: here and having this conversation, much needed conversation. So looking
Speaker 1: forward to having you on the show in the future.
Speaker 1: Where can the listeners find you in the meantime, Well, you.
Speaker 4: Can listen to and subscribe to my podcast. There are
Speaker 4: no girls on the internet. On iHeartRadio, this very network,
Speaker 4: we don't just have enraging conversations.
Speaker 5: Some some of them are fun and.
Speaker 4: Interesting and insightful or touching.
Speaker 5: They are not just in raging, I promise.
Speaker 4: And you can follow me on Twitter at at Bridget
Speaker 4: Marie or on Instagram at Bridget Marie and.
Speaker 1: DC awesome and definitely do that listeners if you're not
Speaker 1: doing it already. If you would like to contact us,
Speaker 1: you can Our email is Stuff Media Moms Stuff at
Speaker 1: iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Instagram at
Speaker 1: stuff I Never Told You or on Twitter at mom
Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard.
Speaker 5: Thanks Andrew, and.
Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You,
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