Speaker 1: Now, Agamemnon's was a continental power, and he could not
Speaker 1: have been master of any except the adjacent islands, and
Speaker 1: these would not be many. But through the possession of
Speaker 1: a fleet, and from this expedition we may infer the
Speaker 1: character of earlier enterprises. Now, Mycenie may have been a
Speaker 1: small place, and many of the towns of that age
Speaker 1: may appear comparatively insignificant. But no exact observer would therefore
Speaker 1: feel justified in rejecting the estimate given by the poets
Speaker 1: and by tradition of the magnitude of the armament. For
Speaker 1: I suppose if Lacedaemon were to become desolate and the
Speaker 1: temples and the foundations of the public buildings were left,
Speaker 1: that as time went on, there would be a strong
Speaker 1: disposition with posterity to refuse to accept her fame as
Speaker 1: true exponent of her power. Hi, Hello, Welcome once again
Speaker 1: to Let's Talk About Myths Baby, the podcast whose title
Speaker 1: is deceiving right now, particularly during this month's series, I'm
Speaker 1: your host, live here once more with history of the
Speaker 1: Bronze Age people of Greece nestled amongst their own mythical history.
Speaker 1: That quote I just read like those i've read before
Speaker 1: for this series was from the classical Athenian historian Thucydides,
Speaker 1: from his work detailing the Peloponnesian War once more. He
Speaker 1: serves as a beautiful example of the way that ancient
Speaker 1: Greece's mythical origins remained very real to later Greek authors,
Speaker 1: who had, in the case of Myceni like only what
Speaker 1: remained of a once great palace and the stories of
Speaker 1: Agamemnon and Menelaeus that the poets had given to them
Speaker 1: centuries earlier, this line of Tantalids and their war against Troy,
Speaker 1: and it's only through this which they could parse the
Speaker 1: Bronze Age culture's lost history. In the case of that
Speaker 1: particular quote, it's him trying to fathom how the Achaeans
Speaker 1: and Agamemnon had so many men and ships to send
Speaker 1: to Troy when the Mycene that was left by his
Speaker 1: time was quite so small. Last week we looked at
Speaker 1: how we know what we know of Bronze Age Greece,
Speaker 1: some of the wider Mediterranean, and how it ties with
Speaker 1: ancient Greece's own mythologized versions of history, and specifically the Minoans.
Speaker 1: We looked at the Bronze Age people from Crete and
Speaker 1: their labyrinthine bull decorated palace of Kenosos. As I mentioned then,
Speaker 1: the Minoans came first, but they were followed close behind
Speaker 1: by Myceni. The culture on the mainland of Greece centered
Speaker 1: in the Peloponnese, which grew under the inspiration of the
Speaker 1: Minoans and came to be quite closely tied with them
Speaker 1: through trade and shared influence. So today we are moving
Speaker 1: over to the mainland and looking at those Mycenians during
Speaker 1: this period. And then on Friday an episode with doctor
Speaker 1: Kim Shelton, whose expertise on Myceni made for an incredible
Speaker 1: and utterly mind blowing episode on the culture and religion
Speaker 1: and what we know of these ancient people. But before
Speaker 1: we listen to that expertise, we are going to get
Speaker 1: comfortable in this world of Myceni, a world which was
Speaker 1: later mythologized into the famed home of Agamemnon and his
Speaker 1: children The Curse of his Father and his grandfather and
Speaker 1: his great grandfather father, where a king is murdered by
Speaker 1: his wife while taking a bath because he had the
Speaker 1: audacity to sacrifice their eldest daughter for a bit of
Speaker 1: good wind, a place where the first red carpet was
Speaker 1: rolled out by that very wife, only that one was
Speaker 1: red with the king's blood. The real Mycenie is perhaps
Speaker 1: less dramatic than Agamemnon's Myceni, but all the more interesting
Speaker 1: because it was well real and hopefully featured fewer attempts
Speaker 1: to trick people into eating children, though I suppose we'll
Speaker 1: never know for sure. This is episode two fifty seven
Speaker 1: under the shadow of Agamemnon. The real Bronze Age Mycenians,
Speaker 1: the Mycenaeans are an exciting people to look at, not
Speaker 1: only for the plethora of mythological connections that we can find,
Speaker 1: but also as the more explicit origins of the later
Speaker 1: Archaic and Classical Age Greeks. That's kind of the wild
Speaker 1: thing about the Myceonians as a whole. How much of
Speaker 1: what was going on in the mainland at the time
Speaker 1: was a precedent for what would later happen. It's interesting
Speaker 1: to look at these similarities and differences when thinking about
Speaker 1: how culture develops over centuries of progress. Through Myceni, we
Speaker 1: get this sense that the evolution and development of culture
Speaker 1: moves from the bottom up because as we will look
Speaker 1: at during the Collapse episodes, what's really lost in that
Speaker 1: collapse isn't the culture itself, but the centralization of it
Speaker 1: and its power. It's the elites and the most upper
Speaker 1: echelons of society that were really lost during the collapse,
Speaker 1: and what was left and what persisted afterwards was the
Speaker 1: real everyday people who were able to go on with
Speaker 1: their lives, who were able to adjust and adapt to
Speaker 1: these major changes because they were themselves not rich and
Speaker 1: elite and so weren't affected in the same way it
Speaker 1: tends to be, particularly when we're looking at this kind
Speaker 1: of culture where the written record is minimal and limited
Speaker 1: entirely to the elite palatial structure. All that's left behind
Speaker 1: is the remnants of those elites, and so it looked
Speaker 1: like the culture itself was lost for a long time,
Speaker 1: but it was only the lasting material record that was
Speaker 1: often lost, and not the people themselves. But I'm getting
Speaker 1: ahead of myself. We are going to stick with the
Speaker 1: Myceneans during the Bronze Age for this one. There's a
Speaker 1: lot to look at. They were a rich culture, both
Speaker 1: literally and figuratively, one that we could spend hours on.
Speaker 1: But we will not. Firstly, a couple of quick reminders
Speaker 1: from last week's episode. Linear A and linear B are
Speaker 1: the two proto Greek languages that I will refer to most.
Speaker 1: Linear A originated on Crete and linear B on the mainland,
Speaker 1: though Crete eventually began using linear be as well, and
Speaker 1: that's lucky because linear BE is decipherable today, whereas linear
Speaker 1: A is still lost in translation. As it were, both
Speaker 1: writing systems are predominantly found in palatial record keeping, where
Speaker 1: the clay blocks they were inscribed on were preserved by
Speaker 1: fires like makeshift kilns that are cherished by modern historians.
Speaker 1: There were many Mycenean sights across the mainland of Greece,
Speaker 1: from the Peloponnese into Attica, by Yoshia and beyond. They
Speaker 1: were just as intensely connected with the rest of the
Speaker 1: Mediterranean as the Minoans, like we talked about last week,
Speaker 1: and of course had a very lovely little relationship with
Speaker 1: those Minoans in particular. But I digress. We will get there.
Speaker 1: The Mycenaeans had as humble a beginning as the Minoans.
Speaker 1: Across the mainland. There were groups of people living and
Speaker 1: going about life just as they were on the island
Speaker 1: during the early Bronze Age, before any kind of centralization.
Speaker 1: And you may wonder how we know what we do
Speaker 1: know for this time period. You know, there wasn't any
Speaker 1: writing in Greece at all, yet we have no textual evidence,
Speaker 1: so what are we left with? Well, again, this is
Speaker 1: where all those archaeologically inclined will get excited. The majority
Speaker 1: of evidence from these earliest time periods, and in fact,
Speaker 1: how we get most of our relative chronology, like dating
Speaker 1: in general, is through pottery, and isn't that delightful. Scholars
Speaker 1: who are considerably more knowledgeable on this topic than I
Speaker 1: am could explain it much better. But basically, through patterns
Speaker 1: in morphology, decoration, depiction of fabrics, et cetera, archaeologists have
Speaker 1: been able to map the changes and figure out roughly
Speaker 1: the time frame for this period. And while the pottery
Speaker 1: that is found during this time is not as impressively
Speaker 1: stunning as what we might find later in the archaic
Speaker 1: and classical periods and beyond, I think that you'd be
Speaker 1: surprised just how sophisticated it was. I mean, I have
Speaker 1: the wins mostly in my head at all times, but
Speaker 1: think Bronze Age octopus. There were identifiable workshops all across
Speaker 1: the mainland, all the way from Thrace down to Attica
Speaker 1: and into the Peloponnese, even on the island Agina tucked
Speaker 1: away in the Saronic Gulf between the Peloponnese and Attica.
Speaker 1: The study of pottery from this time period does more
Speaker 1: than help just help us figure out relative chronology. It
Speaker 1: also shows us the level of connection and specialization that
Speaker 1: was happening during this period. Workshop sites found in some
Speaker 1: central Greek locations even demonstrate that at this period there
Speaker 1: was a truly wild amount of specialization happening, with specific
Speaker 1: pieces being made at specific sites and then which moved
Speaker 1: around the mainland and beyond like truly, the level of
Speaker 1: information that we can get from pottery alone is astounding
Speaker 1: and really goes to show that, you know, even at
Speaker 1: the earliest periods of the Bronze Age in the Aegean,
Speaker 1: there was a substantial amount out of connection taking place
Speaker 1: amongst the people. And as we move through the early
Speaker 1: Bronze Age period on the mainland, we also start to
Speaker 1: see signs of what we should probably consider as a
Speaker 1: migration happening. This movement is combined with more fortifications that
Speaker 1: are happening at sites, evidence of people settling in and
Speaker 1: protecting themselves against outside threats. This isn't quite the heavy
Speaker 1: fortification of the later Bronze Age, but we do start
Speaker 1: to see sites building up a bit more as the
Speaker 1: early period moves on, and there's also evidence of migration
Speaker 1: through the burial sites, which are incredibly important for our
Speaker 1: knowledge of the Myceneans broadly. This is something that Friday's
Speaker 1: conversation will go into in much more details. So I
Speaker 1: won't stay too long on the Early Bronze Age and
Speaker 1: these burials, as I really want to get into the
Speaker 1: major sites that we're all familiar with. But what I'm
Speaker 1: hoping you take away from this is from the beginning
Speaker 1: of it all, we are seeing the same themes that
Speaker 1: we saw while on crete last week, those being movement
Speaker 1: of people, interconnectivity between communities both near and far, and
Speaker 1: just this vast amount of connection across the land. The
Speaker 1: Mycenaeans during the Middle Holadic period, which is around the
Speaker 1: eighteenth century BCE, were vastly different from what we saw
Speaker 1: on crete. While on crete we start to see the
Speaker 1: emergence and growth of their palatial period. What we see
Speaker 1: on the mainland is almost like a mini collapse of sorts.
Speaker 1: This is coming long before their own palatial period. While
Speaker 1: this little mini collapse does lead towards the later palatial
Speaker 1: period of the Mycenians, it is important to spend some
Speaker 1: time with this period because it sets up later citadels
Speaker 1: and palaces that we see into the later Holadic period.
Speaker 1: We won't be here long, just long enough to get
Speaker 1: the lay of the land. And I am having to
Speaker 1: be unfortunately brief, and I'm trying not to bog you
Speaker 1: all down with dates too much, but I hope you
Speaker 1: get the sense of the time period we are looking
Speaker 1: at just how ancient this was. So I mentioned this
Speaker 1: little mini collapse, but also that the time period that
Speaker 1: preceded it was, you know, seemed to be going pretty well.
Speaker 1: There was a growth of community interconnectivity between these various
Speaker 1: areas and the fortification of other areas, which at least
Speaker 1: tells us that there are people that care about where
Speaker 1: they're living and you know, care about protecting that space.
Speaker 1: And yet we see this period followed by this other
Speaker 1: period of destruction and depopulation, at least in the southern mainland.
Speaker 1: This distinction is important, of course, like like you know,
Speaker 1: later ancient Greece. It's really easy to bundle all these
Speaker 1: communities of the mainland under this one umbrella of myceny
Speaker 1: and or mainland. But this isn't really fair or accurate.
Speaker 1: You know, the mainland, like later Greece, was an area
Speaker 1: that housed multitude of people that had differences across the communities,
Speaker 1: just as we would say that, you know, classical period,
Speaker 1: Thebans were like the Spartans in any meaningful way. We
Speaker 1: aren't going to do that with the people living in
Speaker 1: the Peloponnese and in Attica and Botia and beyond during
Speaker 1: this Bronze Age. Like, sure, they share some similarities, but
Speaker 1: not to the degree that we can comfortably say that
Speaker 1: they're all facing the same influences and pressures and threats,
Speaker 1: because like why would they. You know, they're in very
Speaker 1: different places, and so they are just facing very different issues,
Speaker 1: no matter how similar they might also be. The destructions
Speaker 1: I mentioned were likely caused by a variety of factors.
Speaker 1: While a migration of people could influence these destructive events,
Speaker 1: they were likely you know, environmental changes that were also
Speaker 1: happening and influence them, stuff like erosion and land degradation causes,
Speaker 1: you know, serious difficulties for a group of people that
Speaker 1: heavily rely on that land in order to sustain themselves.
Speaker 1: These sorts of difficulties cause people to move around, you know,
Speaker 1: trying to find a better way of life, better places
Speaker 1: to live and grow and everything, and they heavily contribute
Speaker 1: to the changes that are happening during this period. And
Speaker 1: of course, you know, we don't have a record of
Speaker 1: what was actually happening, just what evidence was left behind
Speaker 1: in which we can then try to piece together some
Speaker 1: form of explanation. Not only do we have this destruction, though,
Speaker 1: but we also see major changes in the settlements and
Speaker 1: social hierarchy at this very early period. Because of the
Speaker 1: ever changing environment, there was a need to find a
Speaker 1: new way to order society and understand what was happening
Speaker 1: around the individual people. The movement of people into new
Speaker 1: areas and this mixing of individuals likely also influenced these changes.
Speaker 1: And what comes out of this is the later Mycenians
Speaker 1: that we think of today. Understanding this Middle Holadic period
Speaker 1: is not easy. It's not like the Minoan period where
Speaker 1: we have like really clear signs of change and development
Speaker 1: can glean from The evidence that we do have is
Speaker 1: that changes and development, you know, are happening broadly. During
Speaker 1: the earlier part of this Middle Holadic period, we have
Speaker 1: less of an understanding of exactly what is happening, but
Speaker 1: as we move through that period, we're able to pick
Speaker 1: up on some subtle differences that are occurring, and see
Speaker 1: how the later Mysonians pop out, you know, into the Mediterranean.
Speaker 1: And what we are left with at the end of
Speaker 1: this Middle Holadic period and the changes that took place
Speaker 1: is the foundations for what the Mysonians will become. A
Speaker 1: social hierarchy with an elite is created and seen through
Speaker 1: the mortuary practices that are then present in these areas,
Speaker 1: and resettlement of previous sites is also occurring, and we
Speaker 1: see this ever expanding contact with the Aegean islands and
Speaker 1: with crete, and the Minoan energy and influence on the
Speaker 1: mainland was just enormous. You know. While there is evidence
Speaker 1: of influence on coastal sites for obvious reasons, the influence
Speaker 1: has made it deeper into the mainland too. And it's
Speaker 1: likely the Minoans who inspired the later palatial structures that
Speaker 1: are about to start cropping up on mainland Greece it's
Speaker 1: really the late Holadic period where the Mysonines shine, So
Speaker 1: that's where we will spend the rest of our time.
Speaker 1: I don't want to bog you down with the dates
Speaker 1: too much I might have already, but a general idea
Speaker 1: of the time period that we're looking at is that,
Speaker 1: you know, the broad period that we consider to be
Speaker 1: the Mysonine period on the mainland is generally from around
Speaker 1: seventeen fifty BCE to around twelve hundred or eleven hundred BCE,
Speaker 1: ending with the collapse that we will get to later
Speaker 1: this month. The people that we think of as my
Speaker 1: you know, the palatial citadels where we imagine Helen and
Speaker 1: Malayas and Agamemnon and all those figures in the Trojan
Speaker 1: cycle all come from this late Helladic period around the
Speaker 1: fifteenth century down to the collapse in the early twelfth
Speaker 1: They are not real, to be clear, I hope I'm
Speaker 1: making it clear enough. At least we don't know if
Speaker 1: they're real, But the ideas behind those characters come from
Speaker 1: this time period when Mycenians were kind of at their peak.
Speaker 1: Last week we focused on the Mino inside of Kenosos,
Speaker 1: but it's a little more difficult to pick one mysiny
Speaker 1: in sight and still really get a grasp of everything
Speaker 1: that was happening during the period. What was happening at
Speaker 1: the site of Myceni was not necessarily the same as
Speaker 1: what was happening at Pilos or Thebes or Lerna. For simplicity,
Speaker 1: and because this is not an entire history course but
Speaker 1: one podcast episode that needs to keep me from losing
Speaker 1: what little remains of my functioning brain, We're mostly going
Speaker 1: to hang around in Myceni itself, maybe pop over to
Speaker 1: Pilos every now and then. Just remember, the Mycenians were
Speaker 1: not a monolith. They were broadly spread out over the mainland.
Speaker 1: The Minoans weren't either, obviously, but it's a bit harder
Speaker 1: to wrap your head around when we're talking about a
Speaker 1: large amount of the Greek mainland rather than, you know,
Speaker 1: one famously big but still an island. The very beginnings
Speaker 1: of Mycenean culture grow during the late Helladic period until
Speaker 1: they become this vast and various palatial sites that we
Speaker 1: often think of now, the most famous of which are
Speaker 1: probably Mycenian Pilos, mythological homes to Agamemnon and the Great
Speaker 1: King Nestor. The most important regions for the development of
Speaker 1: the administrative and cultural centers of the Myceneane culture, though
Speaker 1: are these sites or just primarily the sites in the Peloponnese,
Speaker 1: but it does extend into other familiar areas like Attica
Speaker 1: and Botia for once, though like Athens, is not the
Speaker 1: most important place, or rather, for once, it isn't the
Speaker 1: place where almost everything survives from, like is so often
Speaker 1: the case in later time periods. One of the best
Speaker 1: things about learning about the Mycenians, though, in my opinion
Speaker 1: and Mikaela's, is that so much of what we know
Speaker 1: about the development of the culture and the practices come
Speaker 1: from grave sites. This is for all my goth girlies
Speaker 1: out there, keep love and graveyards, because they really do
Speaker 1: impart just loads of important cultural information and one of
Speaker 1: the other most important places to learn about ancient cultures.
Speaker 1: Trash holes. That is not the technical term, but it
Speaker 1: does best describe what I'm talking about, going through ancient
Speaker 1: people's trash like that's archaeology dreams. Still like any good weirdo,
Speaker 1: it's cemeteries that we're going to focus on cemeteries. In
Speaker 1: the beginning of this late Holadic period start demonstrating higher
Speaker 1: levels of organization and division amongst the burials. This implies
Speaker 1: the beginning of social stratification that seems to lean towards
Speaker 1: familial ties and lineage. High value grave goods appear in
Speaker 1: burials and we start to see differentiation in how the
Speaker 1: dead are interred. And again, you know, this is something
Speaker 1: that is going to come up in Friday's conversation. We're
Speaker 1: going to go into lots more detail because grave goods
Speaker 1: are awesome. Interestingly, this is a diversified across the region,
Speaker 1: with different areas adopting different burial practices at this beginning
Speaker 1: kind of periods of this, things like the shaft graves
Speaker 1: at Myceni and the Tumuli and regions like Messinia. These differences,
Speaker 1: as well as the presence of rich grave goods, suggests
Speaker 1: that there was a level of maybe competition amongst these elites,
Speaker 1: with each vying to prove that they are so much
Speaker 1: more important than the other simply because they can afford
Speaker 1: to put more swords or jewelry into their grave. It's
Speaker 1: rich people competing to appear more rich than the other
Speaker 1: rich people, but like spending a seemingly large amount of
Speaker 1: their living days and money, preparing to look rich when
Speaker 1: they're dead, which is just like so fascinating ancient, and
Speaker 1: I mean good for them, I guess, like rich people
Speaker 1: have always been weird. But fortunately what this does is
Speaker 1: show us that there was this emergence of rich people,
Speaker 1: the elite in the region, and eventually these grave sites
Speaker 1: would turn into the large Solos tombs that we can
Speaker 1: still see today in places like Myceni. The most famous
Speaker 1: of these Tholos tombs, sometimes called beehive tombs, is called
Speaker 1: the Treasury of Atreus and it is I mean, fuck
Speaker 1: you guys, Like the Tholos tums are just they're so
Speaker 1: incredibly cool, Like there's a reason they're sometimes called beehive tombs.
Speaker 1: They're incredible. Check my Instagram because I intend to post
Speaker 1: some things that I have from the last time I
Speaker 1: visited there. They are whild, they are beautiful, The acoustics
Speaker 1: inside them are bananas. But of course it is the
Speaker 1: stuff that was found inside those Tholos tombs that gives
Speaker 1: us the most information about the people who built them
Speaker 1: and then the people who were then interred in them.
Speaker 1: The types of brave goods that appear are incredible examples
Speaker 1: of just how far reaching the Myceinee contacts were within
Speaker 1: the Mediterranean. You know, things from places like Crete and
Speaker 1: the Eastern Mediterranean have been found in these tombs, and
Speaker 1: so show that not only the Mycenians you know, had
Speaker 1: well defined trade contacts along with influence from these other regions,
Speaker 1: but also you know, could afford to put them when
Speaker 1: they're buried and never see them again. But it also
Speaker 1: implies this influence from the wider area, an influence that
Speaker 1: was likely driving the political and cultural changes that were
Speaker 1: happening on the mainland. And what's wild too is how
Speaker 1: much these things indicate the level of wealth you know,
Speaker 1: that would have had to been present amongst these elites.
Speaker 1: Like they're burying themselves with their wealth rather than passing
Speaker 1: it down to their descendants. And we know that ancestral
Speaker 1: lines were important, you know, that's also clear in these burials,
Speaker 1: But it means that they were all rich enough that
Speaker 1: they could spare the level of wealth they were being
Speaker 1: buried with, which, like frankly, is a nice little thing
Speaker 1: to keep in mind when we look at the collapse
Speaker 1: and the crash of the elite structures that were well
Speaker 1: quite literally hoarding wealth in the earth, a little bit
Speaker 1: of fuck around and find out perhaps a little bit
Speaker 1: of inspiration for the future. Even over time, the regional
Speaker 1: differences that we see in the early Holadic period become
Speaker 1: less pronounced, and influence on the mainland becomes a bit
Speaker 1: more defined into one thing that we can call Mycenian
Speaker 1: you know, not entirely obviously, just more than it had
Speaker 1: been before. It makes sense, you know, the more these
Speaker 1: cultures developed and worked together, the more they collaborated, and
Speaker 1: so things became more similar across the region, similarly to
Speaker 1: how the Minoans eventually used linear b you know, likely
Speaker 1: because their continued contact and trading with the Mysonians. Still
Speaker 1: just like in later Greece, where certain trends are noticeable
Speaker 1: across the board generally, but we would never say that
Speaker 1: the Athenians operated in exactly the same way as the Thebans,
Speaker 1: you know, this is the same for the Mysonians. One
Speaker 1: of the overall themes for the Mysonians, which I'm sure
Speaker 1: no one will be surprised by, is quite a strong
Speaker 1: emphasis on Marshall prowess, you know, the Agamemnon of it all, because,
Speaker 1: I mean, if we understand that the heroes of the
Speaker 1: Trojan War originated mythologically from this culture. Then the emphasis
Speaker 1: on military excellence is not in any way surprising. Have
Speaker 1: you ever googled a boar tooth helmet? Go ahead and
Speaker 1: do that now. On top of all of this, being
Speaker 1: able to protect yourself in a land that isn't you know,
Speaker 1: the most well known for being able to support large
Speaker 1: populations is also not at all surprising. It was of
Speaker 1: utmost importance for the people living on this land and
Speaker 1: in this very early time period, that they be able
Speaker 1: to support and also protect themselves. The social stratification is
Speaker 1: important when we consider how it was on crete too.
Speaker 1: On the island there seemed to have been more focus
Speaker 1: on the community as a whole and an elite ruling
Speaker 1: class that kind of worked with the population. But on
Speaker 1: the mainland there eventually appears to be more of a
Speaker 1: focus on an individual chief of sorts, a head of
Speaker 1: the elite, or at least a leading family within the
Speaker 1: community and within the elites. Like small settlements that appeared
Speaker 1: across the mainland eventually coalesced into a number of key
Speaker 1: sites that seem to consolidate, you know, everything together under
Speaker 1: this leading individual or leading family. And as these sites grew,
Speaker 1: the need to have an organized administrative system became, you know,
Speaker 1: increasingly important. The palatial systems start to make their appearance then,
Speaker 1: you know, small at first, and eventually growing as time
Speaker 1: goes on. As the early Mysonine period goes on, we
Speaker 1: see this expansion of Mysonean powers across the Mediterranean, most
Speaker 1: notably again on Crete, where a number of destructions occur,
Speaker 1: followed by the adoption of linear Bee as the language
Speaker 1: of administration on the island. You know. Traditionally this has
Speaker 1: sometimes been attributed to the Mysonians taking over the island,
Speaker 1: you know, which is a fairly reasonable conclusion, but it's
Speaker 1: definitely not something that's been agreed upon. I even kind
Speaker 1: of phrased it that way, you know, saying followed by
Speaker 1: but really these things are happening at a similar time,
Speaker 1: you know, because it's also just as likely that the
Speaker 1: Minoans had particularly close ties to the Mysonians and therefore
Speaker 1: adopted linear Bee out of convenience or for any other
Speaker 1: number of reasons. And linear be is fun. Linear be
Speaker 1: is fun. I mean, I won't go too deep into it,
Speaker 1: but it is solidly early Greek and entirely selfishly too,
Speaker 1: like thank fuck the Minoans took on linear B, because
Speaker 1: it means that we can actually read some records from Kenosos,
Speaker 1: you know, which wouldn't be possible if they stayed entirely
Speaker 1: using linear A. And it's certainly true that the Mysonians
Speaker 1: were so deeply influenced by the Minoans that it's sometimes
Speaker 1: difficult to parse out like what is distinctly Mysinian on
Speaker 1: the mainland, you know, from the sheer amount of Minoan
Speaker 1: products and influence that also appears in what remained of
Speaker 1: their mysony and palatial centers. And speaking of let's spend
Speaker 1: the last little bit of time that we have with
Speaker 1: you know, the Mysonians at their height and at the
Speaker 1: centers that we are so familiar with, from the great
Speaker 1: sites of the Argylid, which were likely all interconnected in
Speaker 1: their own ways and tyrans, you know, further into the
Speaker 1: Peloponnese at Pilos, and even up into Boeotia at Thebes.
Speaker 1: There was a settlement in Athens too, i should say,
Speaker 1: and even a structure on the acropolis with its Cyclopean walls,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't important enough to make the cut today.
Speaker 1: For once we get to leave Athens out. Just don't
Speaker 1: tell the Athenians of the classical period, you know, they
Speaker 1: are the center of the universe. The palatial centers of
Speaker 1: the Mycenaeans operated in much the same way as the
Speaker 1: ones on crete, as the central areas for administration, ceremony, production,
Speaker 1: and storage for their corresponding areas. The structure of the buildings, though,
Speaker 1: differed from crete in that they often had a central
Speaker 1: room called a megaron that housed a large hearth and
Speaker 1: possibly was like reception area for whoever was leading the
Speaker 1: people at the sites. The central figure also is appears
Speaker 1: in a name like we actually have a word for
Speaker 1: this central figure of the Mycenean cultures. The word is
Speaker 1: wan ax, and it appears in later Greek as an axe,
Speaker 1: and it meant king, lord, protector, or chief, you know,
Speaker 1: something of that sort. This is the one greatest distinction
Speaker 1: between the Minoans and the Myceonians, where you know, in
Speaker 1: the latter there is eventually this clear leading figure, the
Speaker 1: Agamemnon of it all, whereas the Minoans don't necessarily have that,
Speaker 1: or if they did, we're not sure of it. But
Speaker 1: the surrounding areas of each Mycenine settlement, you know, differed
Speaker 1: from site to site, but what's clear is that there was,
Speaker 1: you know, major expansion that had happened and was taking place.
Speaker 1: Mycene fortified their town with great Cyclopean walls and the
Speaker 1: infamous line ins gate that greeted visitors or enemies as
Speaker 1: they advanced into the citadel. In these walls, like the
Speaker 1: ones in Athens, took their name from the later people
Speaker 1: who couldn't fathom, you know, that their mortal ancestors could
Speaker 1: have built walls so large, and thus they were cyclopaean
Speaker 1: built by the cyclops themselves. Inside the citadels, you don't
Speaker 1: just find the central palatial building with its megaron, but
Speaker 1: also buildings that functioned as cult and production centers. These
Speaker 1: are the areas where the linear b tablets tend to
Speaker 1: be found and which give us lots of information on
Speaker 1: the economic and cult religious activities that were happening. This
Speaker 1: is how we see that specialization of certain crafts and
Speaker 1: crops continued to help each regional economy. At Plos, we
Speaker 1: see a booming textile industry where women played a large role,
Speaker 1: something that is evidenced in the administrative records There's a
Speaker 1: lot to say about women in the Mysonian period and
Speaker 1: goddesses too, which will come up heavily in Friday's conversation.
Speaker 1: You know, I picked brains, Mysony and pottery that she
Speaker 1: remained important and spread across the mainland, the Aegean Islands,
Speaker 1: and then all through the Mediterranean. When it comes to
Speaker 1: cults of worship, the Mysonean cult shows the beginnings of
Speaker 1: cult practices that we will see later in the Greek world,
Speaker 1: kind of the origins of what will become ancient Greek
Speaker 1: cult practice and religion. Broadly, burnt sacrifices were common, as
Speaker 1: were libations, and processions seemed to play an incredibly important
Speaker 1: role in their worship. Minoan influence does appear too, with
Speaker 1: some sites adopting very recognizable Minoan symbols like the double axe,
Speaker 1: But we shouldn't actually assume that this meant, you know,
Speaker 1: a Minoan cult of worship was established or dominant in
Speaker 1: any way. It seems that instead the Mysonians used these
Speaker 1: and various practices within their own understanding of their own cult. Instead,
Speaker 1: you know, Minoan symbols were just being translated into myceny
Speaker 1: In practices and adapted for whatever use they needed. It's
Speaker 1: also in this early Mycenean cult that we can see
Speaker 1: the beginnings of the gods themselves, the gods that we
Speaker 1: will come to know and love and hate from later traditions,
Speaker 1: and they appear in these linear be tablets that record
Speaker 1: offerings made to the various deities and sanctuaries. We see
Speaker 1: evidence of most of the Olympian gods in their earliest forms,
Speaker 1: along with many mentions of a goddess called Potnia. She's
Speaker 1: a kind of broad conceptual goddess or mistress of various
Speaker 1: different things depending on the context. Again, these will come
Speaker 1: up heavily on Friday's episode. Goddesses were a major question
Speaker 1: from me surprise the prius, and along with these dedications
Speaker 1: though to these deities, feasting was an important part of
Speaker 1: their cult practice, something that is seen in the Minoan
Speaker 1: world and obviously later in the Greek world, in which
Speaker 1: you know it helped to impart a common community amongst
Speaker 1: its practitioners. And this too, I'm getting too excited, This
Speaker 1: too is going to come up in a future conversation
Speaker 1: episode where we look at how much we can learn
Speaker 1: from animal bones. You know, about the daily lives of
Speaker 1: these Bronze Age cultures, and as time moves on and
Speaker 1: the Mycenians continue into the late Haladic period, we see
Speaker 1: the fortifications at these sites grow more and more intense.
Speaker 1: The walls are built up higher, alternate entrances are added
Speaker 1: to the citadels, and cisterns are built within the safety
Speaker 1: of the walls of those citadels. And all this points
Speaker 1: to something happening on the mainland that is making the
Speaker 1: people living in these regions uncomfortable. They are nervous, and
Speaker 1: they are building these walls stone by stone, higher and
Speaker 1: higher to keep anything and everything out while ensuring that
Speaker 1: they have the resources to provide for themselves within the
Speaker 1: safety of these walls. And this is of course just
Speaker 1: one small piece of what leads into the Bronze Age collapse.
Speaker 1: The end of the Mysonean elites, the end what we
Speaker 1: call the Mysonians as people as a culture, but the
Speaker 1: continuation of everyone else, the regular people who are able
Speaker 1: to live beyond the collapse of their whole entire societal structure.
Speaker 1: The collapse, as we will see, was not sudden. There
Speaker 1: were stirrings long in advance, events that cause the people
Speaker 1: to feel this need to fortify themselves and their lands
Speaker 1: from something or someone. But here's the wild thing about
Speaker 1: the Mycenians, the people that we learn about through the
Speaker 1: Trojan cycle, this mythical history, the very real people behind
Speaker 1: that entire everything of the Iliad and the Odyssey like,
Speaker 1: really only existed for a short period of time. In
Speaker 1: the grand scheme of ancient Greece and the ancient Mediterranean,
Speaker 1: the rise and fall of the Mycenean Citadels happened pretty quickly,
Speaker 1: just a few centuries. That matters very little though, you know,
Speaker 1: in again, this the same grand scheme of ancient Greece,
Speaker 1: because while the actual people we call Mysenians were a
Speaker 1: fairly brief amount of time or lived for a fairly
Speaker 1: brief amount of time, their legacy I mean spanned the
Speaker 1: whole of the Ancient Greek time period and so far
Speaker 1: beyond that. I mean, well, you've you've heard me read
Speaker 1: the Iliad, in the Odyssey, you've seen the new translations
Speaker 1: coming out to this day, new ways of understanding the
Speaker 1: stories that came out of this Mycenean period. Agamemnon may
Speaker 1: not have been real, but he was inspired by the
Speaker 1: very real people of Myceni and all that they left behind.
Speaker 1: He was developed in the culture that emerged from what
Speaker 1: was left after the collapse of Mycenie. Still, the very
Speaker 1: real people of mainland Greece during the Bronze Age were
Speaker 1: so much more than the myths and the later people
Speaker 1: were able to see in them. The regular people in
Speaker 1: their history are so important to remember when thinking about
Speaker 1: the Mycenians, because while we don't see a lot of
Speaker 1: what those regular people did with their lives, they ultimately
Speaker 1: were the ones who continued on after all of the
Speaker 1: elite was gone. After the elite systems their societies collapsed entirely,
Speaker 1: the regular people were what was left. They carried the
Speaker 1: traditions to what we will find in later Greece, the stories, practices,
Speaker 1: and understandings of their place in the world. We may
Speaker 1: have the elites to thank for building the sites and
Speaker 1: being a driving force for some of our later stories,
Speaker 1: for leaving us the things from which we could learn
Speaker 1: about them, but they were the people lost in the collapse,
Speaker 1: and it was everyone else who continued on after it. It
Speaker 1: was only through regular people who managed to get through
Speaker 1: a whole lot of mess and lived to keep what
Speaker 1: they could of their culture alive to pass it on
Speaker 1: and on until it reached people who may have lost
Speaker 1: the direct memory of who had lived and why what
Speaker 1: they'd done. But it was still those same people who
Speaker 1: interpreted what the Wanaks and other elite figures left behind
Speaker 1: and then gave us the stories that would shape all
Speaker 1: of ancient Greece. There would never have been an Odysseus
Speaker 1: without a mainland Greek farmer telling his children's stories of
Speaker 1: their land and what he knew of its past. There
Speaker 1: could never have been a Clytemnestra rolling out the red
Speaker 1: carpet for her murderous husband without the individuals who came
Speaker 1: across the Tholos tombs of Myceni and imagined that this
Speaker 1: was where that great avenging queen was laid to rest.
Speaker 1: Because yes, one of those Tholos tombs does take her name.
Speaker 1: And so I mean thank you to the Mycenians for
Speaker 1: my entire life's purpose and career. Oh Nerds, History's fun,
Speaker 1: isn't it Friday? My conversation with doctor Kim Shelton diving
Speaker 1: into the details of these ancient Mycenians. Oh, I smiled
Speaker 1: through so much of that episode. I can't wait for
Speaker 1: you all to hear it. Thank you all for listening.
Speaker 1: This episode is more than long enough, so let's finish
Speaker 1: off with a five star review from one of you
Speaker 1: amazing listeners. This came into my inbox at the absolute
Speaker 1: perfect time, like literally this morning. It's from a user
Speaker 1: called Rocky Mountain Queen from the States. Came for the
Speaker 1: myths and stayed for the history. I can't praise this
Speaker 1: show enough. It's just the right amount of whimsy, realism,
Speaker 1: and education. I started from episode one about a year
Speaker 1: ago and was hooked immediately. I first heard about this
Speaker 1: podcast when listening to Ancient History Fangirl and knew I
Speaker 1: had to find it and listen to it. I'm finally
Speaker 1: cut up to the President, and I've loved seeing how
Speaker 1: the show has evolved and gotten better with each episode.
Speaker 1: I love the retellings and explanations of the mythology, but
Speaker 1: I have to say I have enjoyed the History Deep
Speaker 1: Dives more. The Atlantis and Sparta series were great, and
Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to this new season of Bronze Age. Grace,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for creating this show and forcing
Speaker 1: me to think deeper about some of these myths and histories.
Speaker 1: I truly love every minute of it, from the mythology
Speaker 1: episodes to the conversation episodes. I definitely have some favorites,
Speaker 1: but all are wonderful and powerful in their own way.
Speaker 1: Keep doing what you're doing, and I look forward to more.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that review, like for so many reasons.
Speaker 1: They all mean the world to me. But I've been
Speaker 1: struggling lately a lot, and the history episodes are, in
Speaker 1: addition to that, like a bit out of my comfort
Speaker 1: zone as much as I love them, So I really
Speaker 1: appreciate the timing of this review and all of the
Speaker 1: ridiculously nice things you've said about this show and all
Speaker 1: the many years that I've been doing it. I really,
Speaker 1: I really appreciate these. I don't think I can say
Speaker 1: it enough. If you like the show, consider leaving me
Speaker 1: another review on Apple Podcasts for me to you know, appreciate.
Speaker 1: I need to read more on the show, you know,
Speaker 1: so maybe give me some love so frankly, my fragile
Speaker 1: mental health could use them. Let's talk about Miss Baby
Speaker 1: is written and produced by me live Albert MICHAELA. Smith.
Speaker 1: I mean, McKayla is everything for this season, this series
Speaker 1: of Bronze Age episodes. It simply would not exist without
Speaker 1: her for countless reasons. Laura Smith is the production assistant
Speaker 1: and audio engineer and doing some incredible work on the website.
Speaker 1: Somehow soon I'm gonna have a slightly more functioning website.
Speaker 1: You're welcome. Select music in this episode was by Luke Chaos.
Speaker 1: The podcast is part of the iHeart Podcast Network. Listen
Speaker 1: on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and help
Speaker 1: me continue bringing you the world with Greek mythology and
Speaker 1: the Ancient Mediterranean. By becoming a patron, you will get
Speaker 1: past bonus episodes and more and hopefully, hopefully you know
Speaker 1: in the future who isitpatroon dot com Sash Smith Baby
Speaker 1: or click the link in this episode of the description
Speaker 1: I am live and can you hear my voice going?
Speaker 1: I love this shit so much. Thank you all for
Speaker 1: being here. Wow.