Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional.
Speaker 2: Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me for session
Speaker 2: three point fifty four of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast.
Speaker 2: We'll get right into our conversation afterword from our sponsors.
Speaker 2: In honor of Black Maternal Health Week, we're circling back
Speaker 2: to one of our inventory episodes that so many of
Speaker 2: you enjoyed. For our new listeners, you're definitely in for
Speaker 2: a treat. This episode features doctor Christy Christopher Holloway, a
Speaker 2: licensed professional counselor here in the state of Georgia. In
Speaker 2: our conversation, doctor Christy and I discuss what life can
Speaker 2: look like during pregnancy, birth, and in the postpartum period. Plus,
Speaker 2: we explore the growing research around black women's experiences giving birth,
Speaker 2: how the process of giving birth can be traumatic, the
Speaker 2: difference between postpartum depression and the baby blues, and how
Speaker 2: Black women can be strong advocates for ourselves in medical settings.
Speaker 2: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please
Speaker 2: share it with us on social media using the hashtag
Speaker 2: TBG in session, or join us over in the sister Circle.
Speaker 2: To talk more about the episode. You can join us
Speaker 2: at community dot therapy for Black Girls dot Com. Here's
Speaker 2: our conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today,
Speaker 2: doctor Christopher Holloway.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really excited we were able to kind of
Speaker 1: arrange the time to chat because, you know, there has
Speaker 1: been so much more conversation just about the experiences of
Speaker 1: black women getting pregnant, having babies, you know, the whole
Speaker 1: issues related to the maternal death rate related to black moms.
Speaker 1: So it definitely feels like a conversation. I want to
Speaker 1: make sure that we're continuing to have and I know
Speaker 1: that this is a specialty for you. Yes, absolutely, yeah,
Speaker 1: so can you start off by talking a little bit
Speaker 1: about like your perception of like everything that's being shared
Speaker 1: in the news and like, and I'm sure or you
Speaker 1: may have been seeing this in your practice even before
Speaker 1: it became a news item, right.
Speaker 3: Right, absolutely, So I think as I kind of look
Speaker 3: at it and I pay attention to it, especially with
Speaker 3: the maternal mortality rates and things like that that's going on,
Speaker 3: part of me gets, you know, a little frustrated, like gosh,
Speaker 3: why is it still happening? Why does this disparity still exist?
Speaker 3: What are we doing about it? What can we do
Speaker 3: about it? But then the other part of me feel
Speaker 3: somewhat happy that it is being shared and it it
Speaker 3: is being talked about, and that you know, light is
Speaker 3: being shipped on it, and that it's not a matter
Speaker 3: that's just consistently still being swept under the rub. So
Speaker 3: I feel torn sometimes in the issue, But you know,
Speaker 3: I guess if we have to look at it in
Speaker 3: those terms just being excited that okay, at least now,
Speaker 3: maybe this is not something that people can keep acting
Speaker 3: like doesn't exist or that can be ignored. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: I'm hoping you know that we will also see you know,
Speaker 3: like some kind of tasks if that hasn't already started
Speaker 3: to talk about, you know, both what practitioners could be
Speaker 3: doing more, but also how maybe we can become better
Speaker 3: advocates for ourselves. And I know that you do a
Speaker 3: lot of that with your clients, like helping them to
Speaker 3: really become advocates for their own like health and stuff.
Speaker 3: Absolutely definitely teaching them that their voice is super important.
Speaker 3: They don't advocate for themselves or know that it's okay
Speaker 3: to speak up that you know, sometimes they may be
Speaker 3: in a setting where they may feel intimidated or feel
Speaker 3: like they can't speak up, and so letting them know
Speaker 3: that it's okay and that they deserve that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think a part of what has scared
Speaker 1: me too, you know, just with the recent conversations. You know,
Speaker 1: we've heard about Serena Tiamari, Beyonce even has shared, you know,
Speaker 1: like the difficulties related to pregnancy, and you think about,
Speaker 1: like with people with this level of resources still having
Speaker 1: to do so much advocating and saying no, this is
Speaker 1: you know what I think is going on. You need
Speaker 1: to check me for this, And it does worry that,
Speaker 1: you know, like, okay, if this is happening to people
Speaker 1: with this level of resources, what might be happening to
Speaker 1: people that don't have this level of resource.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, you know, the research that shows that ethnic minority
Speaker 3: women do experience higher rates of maternal mortality, and so
Speaker 3: not having those resources, or not knowing what to look for,
Speaker 3: or not being heard in a lot of times situations
Speaker 3: or things that may arise may be kind of shunned
Speaker 3: off for second guests, and maybe we're thinking, oh, maybe
Speaker 3: this is just the part of being a new mom,
Speaker 3: and so it's not really looking into they're not like
Speaker 3: educated on some of the signs and symptoms, and so,
Speaker 3: like you're saying, for someone that has such a huge
Speaker 3: platform or has access to these resources to still feel
Speaker 3: that kind of way, it definitely does make you think
Speaker 3: about what may be happening to those people that may
Speaker 3: not have that access, who may be in a lower
Speaker 3: socioeconomic status situation, and what it is that they're experiencing.
Speaker 1: So a lot that has come out of the research
Speaker 1: that's being conducted related to like the maternal death rates
Speaker 1: for black women is talking about like this whole weathering effect,
Speaker 1: right that black women have, just like the cumulative stress
Speaker 1: related to being a black woman in the world, how
Speaker 1: that may be something that is like contributing to the
Speaker 1: death rates. And so working with a lot of moms
Speaker 1: or you know, soon to be moms, how do you
Speaker 1: in your work help them to kind of manage some
Speaker 1: of the stressors of just being a black woman in
Speaker 1: the country.
Speaker 3: So one of the things that I do is we
Speaker 3: talk about it, Like I give them permission in our
Speaker 3: sessions to really talk about what that looks like for them,
Speaker 3: talk about what it means to be a woman, a
Speaker 3: black woman, and then now a black woman that's about
Speaker 3: to be a mom. So giving them that permission to
Speaker 3: really just talk about all of the day to day
Speaker 3: things that they do and those stressors. And then from there,
Speaker 3: as we kind of get through that and talk about it,
Speaker 3: and I can get off their chest because a lot
Speaker 3: of times we're told to like hold it in or
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter, or we you know, we shouldn't complain.
Speaker 3: It's seen as complaining as opposed to talking and getting
Speaker 3: that support and that help, or sometimes unfortunately they may
Speaker 3: not have the type of support system that they require
Speaker 3: or that they really need or deserve. So we get
Speaker 3: all of that out and then from there, what I
Speaker 3: really do is educate my mom's on what it may
Speaker 3: look like, what some eternal mental health issues may look like,
Speaker 3: how it may present, what they should be on the
Speaker 3: lookout for, and just really kind of letting them know
Speaker 3: how it may take shape or how it may take form,
Speaker 3: and when they need to seek out extra support. If
Speaker 3: I'm fortunate enough to have their partner, I'll also educate
Speaker 3: the partner on this too, because sometimes we may not
Speaker 3: see it. We may be so busy in the hustle
Speaker 3: of bustle of doing all these other things that we
Speaker 3: may miss it. And so I'll try to educate the
Speaker 3: partner or family member or friend or someone like that
Speaker 3: on what to be on the lookout for as well.
Speaker 1: So can you share some of those things with us
Speaker 1: actor as Followay, I mean, I know one of the
Speaker 1: big ones that everybody often hears about is postpartum depression.
Speaker 1: So can you tell us a little bit about like
Speaker 1: what signs we need to be looking out for there.
Speaker 3: So first what I tell people is, you know, you're right,
Speaker 3: we do hear about postpartum depression, but a lot of
Speaker 3: times what gets left out is postpartum anxiety, postpartum psychosis,
Speaker 3: postpartum OCD. So a lot of those are left out,
Speaker 3: and so now women aren't sure what's going on because
Speaker 3: they've never been educated about it or told about it,
Speaker 3: or that it even exists. So now they're experiencing this
Speaker 3: maybe and they don't know what it is, or they're
Speaker 3: writing it off or they're thinking it's normal. So post
Speaker 3: part of depression, though, is what is beyond just the
Speaker 3: baby blues. So a lot of times you'll hear someone
Speaker 3: talk about having the baby blues and what that is.
Speaker 3: It lasts about two weeks post birth, and that's kind
Speaker 3: of the sadness and things like that, maybe some crying.
Speaker 3: That's when we're having that huge hormonal shift, and so
Speaker 3: our hormones are all over the place and we're adjusting
Speaker 3: to being a new mom, adjusting to this great bundle
Speaker 3: of joy that you may have. And I'm speaking in
Speaker 3: terms of those who are able or fortunate enough to
Speaker 3: bring those babies home, because I do also work with
Speaker 3: pregnancy and infant loss, which is a whole another thing
Speaker 3: when it comes to postpartum. Post part of depression is
Speaker 3: beyond the baby blue. So this is looking more like, Okay,
Speaker 3: am I losing interest? Am I not connecting with the
Speaker 3: baby am I not eating? Am I getting sleep but
Speaker 3: not getting rested? You know, like, am I having a
Speaker 3: hard time with getting sleep? Am I not refreshed? And
Speaker 3: at heart? Sometimes? Because who is refreshed when you have,
Speaker 3: you know, a new baby and you're up throughout the
Speaker 3: night and things like that. So post part of depression
Speaker 3: goes way beyond just that baby blue. Sometimes what starts
Speaker 3: happening is the mom may experiencing the suicidal thoughts, maybe
Speaker 3: not active, but just thinking, gosh, I'm not a good mom,
Speaker 3: and maybe you know, the place would be better off
Speaker 3: without me, or this baby would be better off without me,
Speaker 3: or I don't know what I'm doing. So I kind
Speaker 3: of educate the moms on that and what that may
Speaker 3: look like for them, especially if they've already had this
Speaker 3: prevalence of depression prior to conceiving, because sometimes that can
Speaker 3: increase the risk of experiencing postpartum depression. So I try
Speaker 3: to educate them and let them know that this is
Speaker 3: beyond that. In this moment, this is like I'm continuously sad,
Speaker 3: I'm continuously crying, I'm continuously having thoughts that may not
Speaker 3: be healthy thoughts or that may be very maladaptive thoughts
Speaker 3: or even scary thoughts to him, and so they get
Speaker 3: afraid to even talk about it because then the next
Speaker 3: thing that happens is they're afraid that someone's gonna come
Speaker 3: take the baby away or you know, remove them from
Speaker 3: the baby. And so then there's this hard time with
Speaker 3: like talking about what's going on as opposed to just
Speaker 3: sitting there and kind of grunting and dealing with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned that, because I don't
Speaker 1: think we hear enough about like the postpartum psychosis, like
Speaker 1: all of these different things that can happen after the
Speaker 1: birth of a baby. And I feel like there is
Speaker 1: so much going on that you often don't know, right,
Speaker 1: like even if you're somebody who's trained to know the symptoms,
Speaker 1: Like there's just so much going on homonally with your sleep,
Speaker 1: just like just a whole host of things that can
Speaker 1: kind of be contributing to you having some issues.
Speaker 3: It's important, you know, to be able to talk about
Speaker 3: that and to understand what that looks like, what that
Speaker 3: may mean, and then what the mom needs to do
Speaker 3: to get that support if she is experiencing some of that.
Speaker 3: So what I typically do is when I have new
Speaker 3: moms and they're expecting we go over all this. I
Speaker 3: give them like a little checklist or what it looks
Speaker 3: like for them and to them for their normal right
Speaker 3: because everyone's is different, and then some things to look for.
Speaker 3: And so after the baby is born, I'm constantly checking
Speaker 3: in with them because postpartum can also present up to
Speaker 3: about a year or two after birth. So usually we've
Speaker 3: been told, oh, you know, six weeks, that's not postpartum,
Speaker 3: and it is, it can be. So I let them
Speaker 3: know that if it's five months down the line and
Speaker 3: now you're experiencing some things that seem out of the
Speaker 3: norm for you, like, let's talk about it, because this
Speaker 3: may be what's.
Speaker 2: Going on, got it?
Speaker 1: So I bet that checklist is handy, especially like you said,
Speaker 1: for like partners or other supportive friends and family members
Speaker 1: who can maybe help to kind of keep an eye
Speaker 1: on some of those symptoms. Absolutely, absolutely so, doctor Christopher Halloween.
Speaker 1: Can you talk more about the anxiety piece?
Speaker 3: Sure? And this is why it's so hard sometimes for
Speaker 3: new moms and new parents, because again, a lot of
Speaker 3: it seems extremely normal, like, yes, you're anxious, you have
Speaker 3: this new baby. Yes you're standing over the crib and
Speaker 3: making sure they're breathing right. Yes, you may be nervous.
Speaker 3: Am I you know breastfeeding correctly? Am I doing the
Speaker 3: formula correctly? Did I check their diaper? Did I change it?
Speaker 3: So a lot of times the anxiety that comes with
Speaker 3: being a new mom that it looks like postpartum could
Speaker 3: be a lot of increased agitation, a lot of extreme
Speaker 3: like panic and heart racing, being super alert, constant worry,
Speaker 3: constant racing thoughts. There may be heart palpitations or feeling
Speaker 3: like your heart skipping a beat, may have trouble breathing,
Speaker 3: and so then you're having like these really extreme moments.
Speaker 3: Are these extreme episodes sometimes of anxiety and panic, and
Speaker 3: so it's beyond like, okay, let me go and check
Speaker 3: and make sure my baby is breathing. Because if you've
Speaker 3: had a baby, for instance, that may have been born
Speaker 3: a little earlier, needed some time, and then I think
Speaker 3: it's very normal as you're adjusting to make sure they're okay.
Speaker 3: So this is going beyond that. This is I'm worrying
Speaker 3: all the time. I'm not sleeping, I can't control my thoughts,
Speaker 3: I can't catch my breath. It feels like I'm having
Speaker 3: a heart attack, I'm constantly sweating, Like those are some
Speaker 3: of the symptoms that may present when someone is experiencing
Speaker 3: some postpart of anxiety.
Speaker 1: So what kinds of things might you do with a
Speaker 1: client to help them to manage some of this anxiety?
Speaker 3: Definitely, so one we identify it. And so one of
Speaker 3: the things that I do, I'm more of a cognitive
Speaker 3: behavioral type therapist, and what that basically is is I
Speaker 3: help clients to understand how their thoughts, their feelings, and
Speaker 3: their actions or behaviors are all connected. And so one
Speaker 3: of the things that I'll do is have them stop
Speaker 3: and say, Okay, this fear or this worry or this
Speaker 3: concern that I'm having right now is it because it
Speaker 3: may be extremely rational. And then I'll have them ask
Speaker 3: and basically say, okay, is there anything that I can
Speaker 3: do about it? And if there is something they can
Speaker 3: do about it, then figuring out like how they need
Speaker 3: to implement that to do something about it. If it's
Speaker 3: an irrational fear an irrational thought, I'll have them say, okay,
Speaker 3: now what thing do I need to do to help myself?
Speaker 3: So to speak, quiet this fear or quiet this thought.
Speaker 3: So that may mean I can journal, at a talk
Speaker 3: to my partner. I can take a nap because a
Speaker 3: lot of times it's due to exhaustion and just being
Speaker 3: completely tired. I can go and hold the baby if
Speaker 3: I'm concerned that I'm not breastfeeding correctly or my baby's
Speaker 3: constantly crying. Am I starving them? And so then I'll
Speaker 3: give them facts on breastfeeding and how breastfed babies respond
Speaker 3: and react, and how the mom responds and reacts. So again,
Speaker 3: I'll use a lot of CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy
Speaker 3: to help them identify their thoughts, to help them understand
Speaker 3: how it's affecting their feelings and emotions, and then to
Speaker 3: help them understand how it's affecting their actions or their behaviors,
Speaker 3: and then basically having them understand. I call it like
Speaker 3: detective work. And so if you watch a lot of
Speaker 3: I was huge on Law and Order, yes and otherwise, right,
Speaker 3: you know, you get caught up, but you know, so
Speaker 3: typically though, you know, they have to find this preponderance
Speaker 3: of evidence, right, like they have to find enough evidence
Speaker 3: to either convict someone or to take it to trial
Speaker 3: or press charges whatever that is. And so if it's
Speaker 3: not enough evidence, sometimes they can't move forward. They have
Speaker 3: to drop the charges or reduce the charges. And so
Speaker 3: I tell my clients, I want you to be a detective.
Speaker 3: I want you to get a preponderance of evidence that
Speaker 3: this right here, that your experiencing and thinking is a fact.
Speaker 3: If you can't find any evidence, then this lets us
Speaker 3: know that this fear we can kind of start working
Speaker 3: through moving forward from like it's not going to happen.
Speaker 3: You may have some evidence because again, maybe your baby
Speaker 3: did have some trouble in nick you, or you have
Speaker 3: had some trouble during birth, or you experienced loss before
Speaker 3: infertility before something like that. So then we'll say, Okay,
Speaker 3: how can we help or how can I help you,
Speaker 3: or how can your partner help you as it relates
Speaker 3: to having more adaptive thinking or thinking that'll be more
Speaker 3: healthy for you, so that you can connect to this
Speaker 3: baby and you can attach and that you can you know,
Speaker 3: be the mom that you were hoping that you would
Speaker 3: be more.
Speaker 1: From our conversation after the break, so you brought up
Speaker 1: another thing that I think we should touch on, dictor
Speaker 1: Christopher Halloway, related to breastfeeding, because I do know that oftentimes,
Speaker 1: like the relationship that you have as the mom with
Speaker 1: breastfeeding can bring up a lot like if you're doing
Speaker 1: it right, or if for some reason you can't do
Speaker 1: it but you really wanted to, then does that bring up,
Speaker 1: you know, some feelings of regret or sadness or guilt
Speaker 1: for you. Can you talk a little bit about how
Speaker 1: breastfeeding kind of as another layer to this whole puzzle.
Speaker 3: Absolutely so, And then that even goes in with education.
Speaker 3: So breastfeeding can do one of two things. It can
Speaker 3: really promote this attachment and help the mom because now
Speaker 3: she's feeling like I'm doing something right. You know, I'm connecting,
Speaker 3: I'm feeding my baby. I may be depressed, I may
Speaker 3: be sad, I may be anxious. I may not know
Speaker 3: anything else, but I know that I can latch this
Speaker 3: baby to my breast and nourish it and give it
Speaker 3: everything that it needs. On the flip side of that,
Speaker 3: you may have someone who has not been properly educated
Speaker 3: about breastfeeding. And so when I say that, what I
Speaker 3: mean by that is maybe they don't understand how their
Speaker 3: milk comes in the process of lactation. They think maybe
Speaker 3: as soon as I give birth, my milk should be
Speaker 3: flowing and you know, just running endlessly, and so they're
Speaker 3: not educated on that. They're not educated on latching the
Speaker 3: baby or how breastfeed. Babies may feed more off than
Speaker 3: babies that are given formula, and so now it's creating
Speaker 3: again anxiety. It's creating I'm felling my baby. My baby
Speaker 3: is starving because it's crying, or it's hurting me to
Speaker 3: breastfeed because maybe they haven't been shown how to appropriately
Speaker 3: latch the baby, and so they give up or they
Speaker 3: decide to you know, not pursue it, or it's too much,
Speaker 3: and so that can bring on some depression in anxiety
Speaker 3: because this may be something that they have this expectation
Speaker 3: of and that they really really wanted to do and
Speaker 3: to fulfill, but because now they feel like it's not
Speaker 3: working or they're not successful, or maybe they are successful,
Speaker 3: they're just not understanding what it looks like. And so
Speaker 3: this can also increase because now again all of these
Speaker 3: expectations that I may have had when it comes to
Speaker 3: breastfeeding my baby is not happening. I'm not nurishing my child,
Speaker 3: I'm not giving my child what they need. Or sometimes
Speaker 3: society does this mom shaming and you'll have folks that
Speaker 3: are just saying, you know, breast is best. You'll have
Speaker 3: other folks safe formula, and then you'll have some people
Speaker 3: in the middle that may say fed is best. And
Speaker 3: as long as you're feeding your baby and you're giving
Speaker 3: it what it means. So sometimes the mom can get
Speaker 3: a little discouraged thinking that she's spelling this baby or
Speaker 3: letting this baby down in turn letting herself down and
Speaker 3: not meeting all of those expectations that she had set
Speaker 3: up as it relates to how she wanted to nourish
Speaker 3: this baby. And so again I talked with moms about this.
Speaker 3: I am not a lactation consultant, but I am an advocate,
Speaker 3: and so I'll talk to moms about that, and then
Speaker 3: also put them in touch with a lactation consultant or
Speaker 3: knowing what to request if they're having a hospital birth,
Speaker 3: knowing what to request so that they can get the
Speaker 3: education before leaving. And then also maybe some different Facebook
Speaker 3: support groups or Instagram followings that they can do that
Speaker 3: can kind of help educate and keep them motivated as
Speaker 3: they are trying with their breastfeeding journey.
Speaker 1: So, doctor Christopher Halloway, you mentioned this whole idea of expectations,
Speaker 1: and I do think, especially as a first time mom,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of expectations about like what everything
Speaker 1: is going to be like. And so I know, another
Speaker 1: thing that you really work with women on and your
Speaker 1: practice is related to birth traumas and maybe not having
Speaker 1: the birth outcomes that they wanted. Can you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit more about that part of your work.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, so, yes, I do deal with or work with
Speaker 3: women who experienced birth trauma. And so one of the
Speaker 3: things that I always say is trauma is in the
Speaker 3: eye of the beholder. It is not on mean to
Speaker 3: tell someone that they weren't you know, what they experienced
Speaker 3: was not traumatizing. But birth trauma can look like perhaps
Speaker 3: you were wanting to have a natural, battional birth and
Speaker 3: you now had to be maybe at a hospital or
Speaker 3: with a doctor or somewhere that didn't understand your birth
Speaker 3: plan or wasn't away of your birth plan. It can
Speaker 3: look like you have been preparing this entire time for
Speaker 3: a vaginal birth, and because babies do what they do,
Speaker 3: maybe it flips, or it turns, or you know, maybe
Speaker 3: there's heart rate acceleration or something that's putting you in
Speaker 3: the baby at risk. So now you're having the cesarean
Speaker 3: section that you were not prepared for. It's an emergency cesarean,
Speaker 3: so you know the things that go along with that.
Speaker 3: Maybe you know, I've watched a video where a doctor
Speaker 3: was saying, you know, I'm just gonna yank this baby
Speaker 3: out of you, and so that's traumatic because you are
Speaker 3: at the most vulnerable state. Your legs are up, you know,
Speaker 3: your houhas out, and it's a lot going on, and
Speaker 3: so you don't know what to do. So that was
Speaker 3: very traumatizing for that mom. And so I work with
Speaker 3: moms and helping them kind of understand that, Okay, this
Speaker 3: may be your birth plan, but these are some things
Speaker 3: that may come up that we may need to deal with.
Speaker 3: And sometimes I don't get that opportunity to do that
Speaker 3: because maybe I've gotten a mom who's come in now
Speaker 3: because of birth trauma, and so it can look like
Speaker 3: I had the healthy pregnancy all of a sudden, my
Speaker 3: water broke at thirty weeks and I had no idea.
Speaker 3: They couldn't stop anything, and now I have this two
Speaker 3: pound baby that I was not prepared for, and I'm struggling.
Speaker 3: I'm afraid, and I don't know how to connect to
Speaker 3: this child. I don't know what to do. Am I
Speaker 3: gonna be a good mom with maybe a NICKI baby?
Speaker 3: Do I know how to handle them? Are they going
Speaker 3: to be safe in the car seat? And so I
Speaker 3: work with moms to kind of help them with that
Speaker 3: and what that experience may look like. And then you know,
Speaker 3: if any post traumatic stress develops from that, even working
Speaker 3: through the trauma of this unplanned earth that they weren't expecting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it definitely feels like, you know, there's just so
Speaker 1: much that's out of your control, right, Like you can
Speaker 1: be planning for whatever it is you think you want
Speaker 1: the birth to be, and then you just don't know,
Speaker 1: like you said, because babies do what they do and
Speaker 1: it's just kind of all unexpected.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, And so for some women it's not traumatizing.
Speaker 3: They just say, okay, you know, as long as my
Speaker 3: baby is here and healthy. And for others, because sometimes
Speaker 3: of those expectations or prior experiences, like I said, maybe
Speaker 3: loss or things like that, it can be very traumatizing
Speaker 3: for them, and it you know, it just has to
Speaker 3: be worked.
Speaker 2: Through, right right.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, So I know,
Speaker 1: another thing that will often come up and I know
Speaker 1: that neither of us are psychiatrist, so we're not going
Speaker 1: to dive too deep into medication stuff. But it does
Speaker 1: often come up that, you know, clients may need to
Speaker 1: start medication, either maybe towards the end of a pregnancy
Speaker 1: or soon after a pregnancy to help them manage some
Speaker 1: of the symptoms related to like post qutum depression or anxiety.
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about like maybe some
Speaker 1: general things clients have kind of commented about after you know,
Speaker 1: starting medication, or the discomfort of maybe wanting to start medication.
Speaker 3: Yes, definitely, And so you're right, sometimes it is needed
Speaker 3: because maybe the depression or the anxiety or whatever, you know,
Speaker 3: mood disorder is happening. It may be so intense that
Speaker 3: it's difficult for us to get far in treatment because
Speaker 3: how deep it's running. And so sometimes medication is suggested
Speaker 3: and recommended. And sometimes there may be apprehension because maybe
Speaker 3: this person has had a completely natural lifestyle or natural birth,
Speaker 3: or is not really into medications and psychotropic medications as
Speaker 3: they say, or our mind altering or brain altering rather medicine,
Speaker 3: And so what I have to do is talk with
Speaker 3: them about at this point the risk and the benefit
Speaker 3: to take in it, and just reminding me that this
Speaker 3: may not be something that's long term. It's just to help,
Speaker 3: you know, help you get through this hump, get over
Speaker 3: this hump. Sometimes there's apprehension about taking the medication because
Speaker 3: they are breastfeeding and they don't want it to be
Speaker 3: transferred to the baby. And so there are medications that
Speaker 3: are acceptable or that are okay when it comes to breastfeeding,
Speaker 3: and of course there are some that are not, and
Speaker 3: so I encourage the mom to definitely talk with the
Speaker 3: psychiatrists as well as there you know, if they had
Speaker 3: a OB or their midwife or nurse practitioner in conjunction
Speaker 3: with me, so that we can figure out maybe the
Speaker 3: best treatment, the best medicine, and then maybe putting hopefully
Speaker 3: some type of guide or expectations or just a plan
Speaker 3: in place on maybe how long this may be needed,
Speaker 3: with the understanding that maybe it may need to be
Speaker 3: needed a little longer, or maybe you know, if we
Speaker 3: start seeing that progress and their coping skills or back
Speaker 3: to where it needs to be, their support system is
Speaker 3: there and they're talking and they're attending therapy, that it
Speaker 3: may not be as long. But when it comes to
Speaker 3: situations where if mom does not get on some medication
Speaker 3: that is going to be harmful to her or the baby,
Speaker 3: or you know, anyone in the family, then it's kind
Speaker 3: of almost like, look, the benefits of you getting on
Speaker 3: right now will greatly outweigh the risk of you not
Speaker 3: being on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that is often like difficult conversations to have,
Speaker 1: you know, for a lot of the reasons that you
Speaker 1: just named right, right, So what are some of the
Speaker 1: other things that you do, Doctor Christopher Holloway with moms
Speaker 1: just kind of working through this whole period of you know,
Speaker 1: like welcoming a baby, a new baby or you know,
Speaker 1: a sibling now into the family to kind of help
Speaker 1: them to, you know, make sure they're taking care of
Speaker 1: their mental health right.
Speaker 3: So, in addition to educating them on and so I
Speaker 3: use the term you know, normal because it's very relative
Speaker 3: to the person. In addition to educating them on their
Speaker 3: normal and what things look like for them, we talk
Speaker 3: about putting a support system in place. Sometimes the Internet
Speaker 3: can be great and other times it can be very devastating,
Speaker 3: So we talk about what that may look like for them.
Speaker 3: And so their support system may include certain groups or
Speaker 3: you know certain websites, and sometimes it may not we
Speaker 3: may have to completely ext but we talk about how
Speaker 3: your friends and family can support because sometimes you know,
Speaker 3: as new moms, we want to figure it all out,
Speaker 3: we want to do it all We say, well, no
Speaker 3: manual comes and you know this is my baby, let
Speaker 3: me do this and figure it out. So being able
Speaker 3: to say, how can you reach out for that support?
Speaker 3: What are some things that we can put in place
Speaker 3: so your family knows that maybe you need some support
Speaker 3: if they have access to it. I recommend adula that
Speaker 3: can kind of be a postpartum doula who can be
Speaker 3: there after birth and helping them and helping around the
Speaker 3: house and making sure mom is eating because unfortunately in America,
Speaker 3: in our country, sometimes we don't get afforded six eight,
Speaker 3: you know, twelve plus weeks of maternity leave, and then
Speaker 3: the father may not get paternity leave. You know, you
Speaker 3: may not have a mom or a sister or a
Speaker 3: sibling or someone that can be around to help you.
Speaker 3: And so sometimes having a duela there to help and
Speaker 3: make sure that mom is eating, helping oh the baby
Speaker 3: so mom can take a quick shower or a quick
Speaker 3: nap is extremely beneficial and if they don't have access
Speaker 3: to that, then talking about how can your partner support you,
Speaker 3: How can friend support you? What are some code words
Speaker 3: that we can put in place so people will know
Speaker 3: that you need help. I encourage my clients to give
Speaker 3: themselves permission, and that permission may look like whatever it
Speaker 3: is that you need permission for in that moment. So
Speaker 3: giving yourself permission to breathe, maybe the type of birth
Speaker 3: that you thought you were going to have. Given your
Speaker 3: self permission to breastfeed uncovered without a care in the
Speaker 3: world you know, or given your self permission to take
Speaker 3: a nap, given yourself permission to co sleep if that's
Speaker 3: what you do, given your self permission to have the
Speaker 3: type of birth that you want. So if that's a
Speaker 3: natural birth, that's a home birth, if that's a birth
Speaker 3: and a birthing censer, if that's a hospital birth, if
Speaker 3: that's a medicated birth, just whatever permission that's needed, because
Speaker 3: that's very free for a lot of people. And so
Speaker 3: I try to do a lot of work with that
Speaker 3: and putting that plan in place so that way when
Speaker 3: it comes to the nitty gritty and baby is here
Speaker 3: and it seems like the whole world has been flipped
Speaker 3: upside down, that they'll have this and they can refer
Speaker 3: back to it and say, Okay, this is what I
Speaker 3: need or I don't have to portray being this strong,
Speaker 3: got it all together mom. In this instance, I can
Speaker 3: say no, I need help with this, or can you
Speaker 3: do that? And so if mom is breastfeeding man, maybe
Speaker 3: the partner can change the diapers or changed clothing, so
Speaker 3: that way, you know they're both having this time with
Speaker 3: this baby and bonding with the baby, mom not feeling
Speaker 3: like everything is on her. So that's some of the
Speaker 3: stuff that I try to do. And again, if they
Speaker 3: don't have a huge support system and maybe there's not
Speaker 3: a partner there, maybe they've chosen to be a single parent,
Speaker 3: just still talking about what that may look like for them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, those all sounds like some really great tips, you know,
Speaker 1: for anybody who is in the throes of this process.
Speaker 1: Are preparing for this process.
Speaker 3: Absolutely because you don't know really, you know that I
Speaker 3: was telling someone the other day that and I had
Speaker 3: all the what to Expect when expecting books. I had
Speaker 3: every last one of them. I even saw one of
Speaker 3: what to expect when you have a teenager. But at
Speaker 3: the end of the day. You can read those and
Speaker 3: have those and it can give you some common knowledge,
Speaker 3: but nothing's going to prepare you until you were here
Speaker 3: in the throes of it and build with it.
Speaker 2: Right right.
Speaker 1: So what are some of your favorite resources? Actor Christopher
Speaker 1: Halloween Some of the things you find yourself recommending to
Speaker 1: your clients pretty frequently.
Speaker 3: Yes, So when it comes to just what's going on
Speaker 3: with you know, the baby and what's happening? One of
Speaker 3: the apps, and there's also a book, but I you know,
Speaker 3: sometimes we don't have time to be reading books. One
Speaker 3: of the apps that I definitely recommended was the Wonder
Speaker 3: Week's app or the book, but it basically tells you
Speaker 3: everything that's going on with baby up until I think
Speaker 3: I think it goes up to it may go up
Speaker 3: to two years old. I know it goes up to
Speaker 3: a year old. But it talks about developmental leaps that
Speaker 3: the baby may be having or that may be approaching,
Speaker 3: so to help you understand, Okay, why is baby so
Speaker 3: fussy or why is this happening? Why isn't this working?
Speaker 3: And it just worked last week? So I definitely recommend
Speaker 3: the Wonder Weeks app because I think I know for
Speaker 3: me having twins. It just gave me a whole lot
Speaker 3: of information that I needed and helped me understand like, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: that's what's going on. So I definitely recommend that for
Speaker 3: moms who are just dealing with these expectations that they
Speaker 3: had that have now been slapped with reality. There's a
Speaker 3: great book that I recommend called This Isn't What I Expected.
Speaker 3: Another one is Life Will Never Be the Same, And
Speaker 3: it's just basically talking about postpartum and what that looks
Speaker 3: like and having just a resource for you know, moms
Speaker 3: to read and understand like, I'm not the only one
Speaker 3: in the world that's experiencing this. And although they know that,
Speaker 3: sometimes it can feel very isolating, and again we can
Speaker 3: get caught up in our mind and in our thoughts
Speaker 3: and feel like I'm the only one that's dealing with this,
Speaker 3: or you know, why didn't I breastfeed longer sheep breastfeed,
Speaker 3: or why didn't I do this? And why didn't I babywear?
Speaker 3: And did I mess them up? And am I attaching?
Speaker 3: Am I abunding to this? Am I a horrible mom my?
Speaker 3: Baby was in the nick you and I wasn't able
Speaker 3: to be there for the first two three, five, ten weeks,
Speaker 3: you know, did I damage my child? And so it
Speaker 3: just helps with all of that. So those are some
Speaker 3: of the great resources that I recommend.
Speaker 1: Perfect And where can we find you online? Your website
Speaker 1: as well as any social media handles you'd like to share.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, so the website is www dot New Vision Counselingcenter
Speaker 3: dot com and on Facebook you can find the company
Speaker 3: as well on at New Vision Counseling Center as well.
Speaker 1: And all of that information will be included in the
Speaker 1: show notes so people can find you easily. Awesome, Perfect, Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing with us today, doctor
Speaker 1: Christopher Halloway. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you for having me, and hopefully this
Speaker 3: has helped some women out there and even you know,
Speaker 3: partners out there who may be trying to figure out
Speaker 3: what's going on and help help that new mom in
Speaker 3: their life. Right.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'm so glad doctor Christy was able to join
Speaker 1: us for that conversation. To learn more about her and
Speaker 1: her work, be sure to visit the show notes at
Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Session three point fifty four,
Speaker 1: and don't forget to text this episode to two of
Speaker 1: your girls, right now. If you're looking for a therapist
Speaker 1: in your area, check out our therapist directory at Therapy
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And if you want
Speaker 1: to continue digging into this topic or just be in
Speaker 1: community with other sisters, come on over and join us
Speaker 1: in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the
Speaker 1: Internet designed just for black women. You can join us
Speaker 1: at community dot Therapy.
Speaker 2: For Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Frida Lucas,
Speaker 2: Elise Ellis, and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.
Speaker 2: Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.
Speaker 2: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all
Speaker 2: real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 3: What what