Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining me for session three fifty five of the
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our
Speaker 1: conversation after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2: Hi. My name is Alua Arthur and I'm on the
Speaker 2: Therapy for Black Girls podcast. I'm in session today unpacking
Speaker 2: my work as a death doula.
Speaker 1: It is guaranteed that everyone on this earth will eventually die,
Speaker 1: and yet the process is made difficult with considerations such
Speaker 1: as appointing and authorized representative, leaving dependents behind, and other
Speaker 1: bureaucratic formalities that can be outright cruel to deal with.
Speaker 1: When you're already experiencing grief. Stepping in to help with
Speaker 1: these considerations are death doulas, who work to make this
Speaker 1: monumental transition as smooth as possible for both the dying
Speaker 1: and their families. To talk with us today about what
Speaker 1: it means to be a death doulah, I'm joined by
Speaker 1: death doulah and newly published author of the memoir Briefly
Speaker 1: Perfect Human Ailua. Author Alua is the founder of Going
Speaker 1: with Grace, a death doulah training and end of life
Speaker 1: planning organization that exists to support people as they answer
Speaker 1: the question what must I do to be at peace
Speaker 1: with myself so that I may live presently and die gracefully.
Speaker 1: In our conversation today, we discuss the training and certifications
Speaker 1: required to become a death doulah, how deathdulas assist both
Speaker 1: the dying and their families in making end of life decisions,
Speaker 1: and how dying means becoming comfortable with the idea of
Speaker 1: leaning on our community for support. If something resonates with
Speaker 1: you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on
Speaker 1: social media using the hashtag TBG in session, or join
Speaker 1: us in the Sister Circle to talk more about the episode.
Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls
Speaker 1: dot com. Here's our conversation. Heylua, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining us today.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an honor to chat with you. So I
Speaker 1: wonder if you could get started by telling us a
Speaker 1: little bit about what inspired you to go into doing
Speaker 1: the work of being a death doula.
Speaker 2: Sure. About ten years ago, I was practicing law at
Speaker 2: the Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles, and I grew
Speaker 2: really really depressed, clinical depression, and I took a medical
Speaker 2: leave of absence from work, and during that leave of absence,
Speaker 2: I went to Cuba, where I met a fellow traveler
Speaker 2: on a bus who had uterine cancer. We spent a
Speaker 2: lot of time talking about her life. Then I started
Speaker 2: asking her about her death and she answered, and it
Speaker 2: was one of the first times that she felt safe enough,
Speaker 2: comfortable enough to discuss the potential for her dying from
Speaker 2: her disease. And it made me really sad that this
Speaker 2: stranger had nobody that she could talk to death about.
Speaker 2: But also for the first time I started looking at
Speaker 2: my own life through the lens of my death. We
Speaker 2: both had terminal illnesses. If left untreated depression certainly being
Speaker 2: one of them in my estimation anyway, And so I
Speaker 2: considered if my disease had killed me, what would I
Speaker 2: have made of my life? And I wasn't happy with
Speaker 2: what I saw, and so I decided to make some
Speaker 2: changes in my life, which included studying death. But about
Speaker 2: six months after I came back from Cuba, my brother
Speaker 2: in law, Peter Saint John, became ill and I got
Speaker 2: to support him through the end of his life. And
Speaker 2: that's when I saw firsthand the grim reality of people
Speaker 2: walking through the medical care system engaging with death and dying.
Speaker 2: And I didn't like what I saw there either, So
Speaker 2: I decided to do something about that too, and built
Speaker 2: a death doula practice.
Speaker 1: Wow, So tell me more about when you said you
Speaker 1: started learning more about death. Were you enrolled in formal courses,
Speaker 1: were you reading books? What was that practice?
Speaker 2: Like? I read everything I could get my hands on.
Speaker 2: I talked to everybody about death. I mean, I'm talking
Speaker 2: about the cashier at CVS and write aid, Okay, I'd
Speaker 2: be like, have you ever thought about dying? Kind of
Speaker 2: like the Barbie movie. I just was so full of
Speaker 2: the conversation. I also found a death Midwiffrey program here
Speaker 2: in Los Angeles through an organization called Crossings, where I
Speaker 2: learned how to care for bodies after death and natural
Speaker 2: death care principles and practices like green burials, et cetera.
Speaker 2: But the practice that I have right now, the one
Speaker 2: that I built, is one that I learned from studying
Speaker 2: a bunch of different practice areas. Like I went to
Speaker 2: my estate planning friends and asked them to sit with
Speaker 2: them as they walk people through wills and trusts and
Speaker 2: the states. I got a job at an I'll turnative
Speaker 2: funeral home. I volunteered at hospices, got a job at
Speaker 2: a hospice. I did as much as I could to
Speaker 2: learn what it looked like to properly support people through
Speaker 2: dying to build the practice that I have right now.
Speaker 1: Wow, thank you for sharing it. And I'm curious to
Speaker 1: know how you have been able to take care of
Speaker 1: your own mental health doing this kind of work and
Speaker 1: if you saw any change in your depressive symptoms after
Speaker 1: switching to doing this kind of work.
Speaker 2: I felt a massive change in my depressive symptoms. Don't
Speaker 2: get me wrong, I think depression is something that I'll
Speaker 2: probably dance with my entire life. Maybe it's in my
Speaker 2: chemistry and my DNA, it's just in the way that
Speaker 2: I experienced the world. But I did feel a shift,
Speaker 2: majorly because at the time I wasn't capable of much
Speaker 2: of anything. I couldn't make meals, showering I only did
Speaker 2: because I didn't want to stink, But other than that,
Speaker 2: I wasn't really capable of doing much. And what I
Speaker 2: found through my work was that well, mostly through being
Speaker 2: with death and dying is first of all, the impermanence
Speaker 2: in any emotional mental state that I'm experiencing, which allows
Speaker 2: me to just be with it for what it is
Speaker 2: and not think it's never going to end, which is
Speaker 2: certainly something that I felt in the depths of my depression.
Speaker 2: But next, also I have a little bit more clarity
Speaker 2: of purpose of being. And I don't mean in my
Speaker 2: work necessarily. While I thoroughly enjoy my work, I've gotten
Speaker 2: a chance to sit with why I'm here and what
Speaker 2: I enjoy about being here, which allows me to reframe
Speaker 2: often when the symptoms come back, or when things start
Speaker 2: getting to feel like I can't carry them anymore.
Speaker 1: So talk to me about your work. What does does
Speaker 1: a day look like as a death.
Speaker 2: Doulah sure for starters, let me just define so death
Speaker 2: doulas do all of the non medical Karen support of
Speaker 2: the dying person and the circle of support through the process.
Speaker 2: And when I say dying person, I mean anybody who
Speaker 2: has some awareness that one day death will come, which
Speaker 2: means healthy people too that have started to live with
Speaker 2: awareness of their mortality. We help healthy people complete comprehensive
Speaker 2: end of life plans, and people that know what it
Speaker 2: is that they're going to be dying of because they
Speaker 2: have an illness, we help them create the most ideal
Speaker 2: death for themselves under the circumstances. And after a death occurs,
Speaker 2: we help family members wrap up affairs of their loved
Speaker 2: one's life. A day in life typically looks like waking
Speaker 2: up and checking to see who's still living. First of all,
Speaker 2: a lot of gratitude that I woke up that morning,
Speaker 2: and next also checking in to see what happened with
Speaker 2: my clients overnight, probably go to a few end of
Speaker 2: life planning consultations, do some home visits and check in
Speaker 2: with the clients to see how folks are doing, and
Speaker 2: then a lot of emails and paperwork. One thing that
Speaker 2: I didn't really account for was that building a practice
Speaker 2: meant that I was going to be an entrepreneur, which
Speaker 2: meant that I had to build a business and run
Speaker 2: a business. And that is not for the faint of heart. Okay,
Speaker 2: So that was one of the most surprising difficulties in
Speaker 2: getting this whole thing up and running.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me more about like an end of
Speaker 1: life consultation? What does that look like?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that looks like helping somebody fill out their end
Speaker 2: of life plans and paperwork. Often I'm working with healthy
Speaker 2: people when doing this, So we walk through an advanced
Speaker 2: planning tool that covers about nine basic areas to make
Speaker 2: sure that folks have a lot of their plans down.
Speaker 2: I think most important is that people complete advance directives,
Speaker 2: starting with your medical decision maker, who's going to make
Speaker 2: your decisions for you in the event that you can
Speaker 2: the event that you become incapacitated. That person is also
Speaker 2: called a medical power attorney. Also important is life support
Speaker 2: decision making. What do you want done in the event
Speaker 2: that your life cannot be saved, but perhaps it can't
Speaker 2: be prolonged for a bit longer, saving off natural death
Speaker 2: from occurring. Also getting clear on your care and comfort,
Speaker 2: how you want to be cared for near the end
Speaker 2: of your life, what you want done with your body
Speaker 2: after death, your services, considering your possessions, if you're going
Speaker 2: to have a will or a trust or in a state,
Speaker 2: what you want done, Also with your sentimental items, thinking
Speaker 2: about your dependence and pet care, so dependence being children
Speaker 2: or disabled adults that are under your care. Also considering
Speaker 2: all your biographical information and details. And then also all
Speaker 2: your accounts, your online accounts, like getting your passwords and
Speaker 2: any accounts that hold financial information, making sure all those
Speaker 2: are in there. But the last thing, which I find
Speaker 2: most important is thinking through your values around living. Because
Speaker 2: one beautiful thing that death does for us is put
Speaker 2: a highlight on our lives. And so if we can
Speaker 2: think about the values that we have in our living
Speaker 2: and start getting clear on those right them down, that
Speaker 2: can be a really really powerful tool and end of
Speaker 2: life planning.
Speaker 1: And is this something that's typically done in conjunction with
Speaker 1: other family members? Is there software involved in like housing
Speaker 1: all the passwords and thinking through.
Speaker 2: The logistics of all of this great questions. I love
Speaker 2: having families involved. Once about maybe three years or so ago,
Speaker 2: I got to support three generations and end of life planning.
Speaker 2: So they all came together around a dinner table and
Speaker 2: the living room. There was probably about sixteen people there
Speaker 2: and everybody filled out these documents. It's analog because I'm
Speaker 2: a still very analog girl, but it's a document that
Speaker 2: I created where we talked through all the items in there,
Speaker 2: and then they get to keep it for the account cataloging.
Speaker 2: Often I suggest that people write down the accounts that
Speaker 2: hold financial information such as like Amazon and eBay, and
Speaker 2: places where your credit card information might be saved, including
Speaker 2: your banking information, etc. So that those can be easily accessed.
Speaker 2: And I also encourage folks to sign up for some
Speaker 2: password storage systems.
Speaker 1: And how are people typically like finding you to work
Speaker 1: with you? What does your caseload I guess kind of
Speaker 1: look like, Well, it looks like.
Speaker 2: A lot of different things. Lately, I'm not seeing clients
Speaker 2: as much because I've gotten really really busy with my
Speaker 2: book that's coming out and teaching death doulas. But people
Speaker 2: find me a variety of ways. I think from all
Speaker 2: of the word of mouth, because I've been able to
Speaker 2: be with quite a few people in their considerations around dying,
Speaker 2: and also through students, which is really great because folks
Speaker 2: come to learn how to become a death dola and
Speaker 2: then they start figuring the work out there. But I
Speaker 2: think that as the work starts to penetrate more of
Speaker 2: mainstream society, people get curious about it and start going
Speaker 2: snooping trying to find one. And I'm really happy that
Speaker 2: they do.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, and as you're talking, you know, a
Speaker 1: lot of your work sounds like what we might think
Speaker 1: happens in hospice. But I wonder could you tell me, like,
Speaker 1: what is the difference between the world work that you
Speaker 1: do in traditional hospice and how might those two fields collaborate.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you asked. They're really collaborative. If you
Speaker 2: ask me, we can just be an extra set of hands, eyes, ears,
Speaker 2: human for the dying person in the family. Hospice often
Speaker 2: has they hold all the medical stuff, so the doctor,
Speaker 2: the nurses, the CNAs of the ends, certified nursing assistants,
Speaker 2: licensed vocational nurse, et cetera. Folks that come in to
Speaker 2: handle the physical needs of the dying person. Grant that
Speaker 2: there also is a chaplain and a social worker that
Speaker 2: might be part of the hospice team. But we get
Speaker 2: to be a really holistic care, So I'm looking at
Speaker 2: all of the client's needs in totality and making sure
Speaker 2: that everything is covered. So there are things that the
Speaker 2: hospice team won't do or can't do necessarily that the
Speaker 2: doula can do. Also, I can be available when I
Speaker 2: choose to be twenty four hours a day, whereas you
Speaker 2: can't expect the doctor to pop in whenever you might want.
Speaker 1: Got it? And I feel like sometimes hospice care is
Speaker 1: paid for by insurance.
Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, a lot of times it should be covered
Speaker 2: okay care, Yeah, is.
Speaker 1: Your work covered by insurance at all?
Speaker 2: It's still private pay for now, largely because of licensing
Speaker 2: requirements et cetera that we haven't totally found a way
Speaker 2: through yet. Got it.
Speaker 1: Got it?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 1: You say that sometimes like the family is involved with
Speaker 1: the planning. How much of your work involves talking with
Speaker 1: the family about the end of their loved ones life
Speaker 1: a lot.
Speaker 2: My job is to support people who have some awareness
Speaker 2: that death is coming, and that's not always a case
Speaker 2: for somebody who's nearing the end of life. Some people
Speaker 2: resist it all the way to the end, which means
Speaker 2: that I can be hired by the family members to
Speaker 2: support them as they support the person who's dying. There's
Speaker 2: been many a time so when I've worked with a
Speaker 2: caregiver who says, Hey, this looks like a mess and
Speaker 2: it looks like death is coming, and what do I
Speaker 2: need to do in order to prepare? What information do
Speaker 2: I need? Et cetera. Also, the folks that are around
Speaker 2: the dying person are also in a massive experience themselves
Speaker 2: and also require some support. They are maybe dealing with
Speaker 2: anticipatory grief or frustration or anger or whatever may be,
Speaker 2: and they need support too. So we focus on the
Speaker 2: dying person and the circle of support through that process.
Speaker 2: So I'm curious.
Speaker 1: About all of the reading and the learning that you
Speaker 1: were doing as you were preparing to start your organization
Speaker 1: Going with Grace. What kinds of things did you learn
Speaker 1: that you feel like have really become foundational to the
Speaker 1: work you do with your organization.
Speaker 2: For starters, I really sunk into the impermanence of everything,
Speaker 2: as I was just mentioning, is in order to be
Speaker 2: with dying, we have to shift first, I think, into
Speaker 2: the psychosocial, spiritual elements of it to allow us to
Speaker 2: get into the practical things as well. Because the practical
Speaker 2: don't make any sense unless we're also dealing with the
Speaker 2: other stuff. And so when I started to like zoom
Speaker 2: out and think about death and dying holistically is when
Speaker 2: it allowed me to properly sit down and say, Okay,
Speaker 2: what are the things that actually need to happen. Now
Speaker 2: there are different entry points for the work, and some
Speaker 2: clients aren't interested in talking about the emotional, relational, psychosocial,
Speaker 2: spiritual elements of dying but really just want to get
Speaker 2: their stuff done. But did two always come together one
Speaker 2: way or another. So that was something that really supported
Speaker 2: is thinking about dying theoretically and creating a framework for that.
Speaker 2: And then from there, as I had to learn about
Speaker 2: how deep bureaucracy is after death occurs, that really started
Speaker 2: shifting the game for me. It's a whole beast after
Speaker 2: somebody dies, trying to get all their fares wrapped up,
Speaker 2: and I was not prepared for that at all.
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about some of the
Speaker 1: things that surprised you with that process?
Speaker 2: My gosh, after my brother in law died, I was
Speaker 2: trying to, briefly, I thought, brief help my sister before
Speaker 2: I left to go take care of myself. Because I'd
Speaker 2: been with them for a couple of months at that point,
Speaker 2: and it was not quick. It wasn't brief at all.
Speaker 2: I trying to transfer title of his car to his
Speaker 2: nephew because we thought we'd just give the car away
Speaker 2: after he dies. Turns out that's not the case at all.
Speaker 2: It is a long drawn out process where the car
Speaker 2: had to enter into the estate formerly and then through
Speaker 2: the probate process. Then we had to determine who the
Speaker 2: executor was going to be, and then the executor had
Speaker 2: to go to the DMV and on and on and
Speaker 2: on and on and on in order to do this.
Speaker 2: That was just one thing, but also things like trying
Speaker 2: to figure out what pension he'd held through his job,
Speaker 2: or trying to get access to his cell phone because
Speaker 2: we didn't have access to the passcode. I'd call or
Speaker 2: try to reach out to some system and they want
Speaker 2: to talk to him to get verification. I'd be like,
Speaker 2: he's dead, Like it's part of the reason I called,
Speaker 2: just because he died. It was like an unending wellspring
Speaker 2: of bureaucracy and a lot of blocks and obstacles in
Speaker 2: that bureaucracy as well. It was very foolish of me
Speaker 2: to think that the bureaucratic rules would favor the grieving,
Speaker 2: but they don't at all. In fact, you need to
Speaker 2: have all your wits about you and be extra resource
Speaker 2: in order to process something like that. But while doing
Speaker 2: it in the midst of deep grief, it's cruel to me.
Speaker 2: I can't understand for the life of me why the
Speaker 2: systems are set up this way that make it that
Speaker 2: much harder for people that are suffering to navigate.
Speaker 1: Right right, And ideally it sounds like somebody would work
Speaker 1: with you before the end of their life so that
Speaker 1: this stuff is kind of all taken care of.
Speaker 2: But does your work.
Speaker 1: Also sometimes start working with the family after a loved
Speaker 1: one has passed to help with some of this. And
Speaker 1: then how do you get permission, I guess, to kind
Speaker 1: of speak on behalf of the family, Like, is there
Speaker 1: some kind of paperwork that companies need to know that
Speaker 1: you actually are authorized to speak on their famili's behalf.
Speaker 2: Yes, that is an authorized representative form. That's the form
Speaker 2: that I use, and I'll have them fill out several
Speaker 2: of them and just change the name of the company
Speaker 2: that I'm trying to access. And sometimes it's really difficult
Speaker 2: but yes, I often work with folks after the death
Speaker 2: has occurred. In a few of them, there's been both
Speaker 2: mom and dad have died at the same time, and
Speaker 2: they've left adult children with multiple houses and lines of
Speaker 2: credit and kids from one marriage kids from another marriage
Speaker 2: trying to figure out who inherits who. In the couple
Speaker 2: of cases that I've done, that one of them went
Speaker 2: on for about a year and a half where we're
Speaker 2: trying to piece together all the accounts that were open
Speaker 2: and all the possessions that they had, et cetera. But
Speaker 2: I went to law school, so my brain has been
Speaker 2: highly trained to take in a big amount of information
Speaker 2: and whittle it down to its finest, finest points. And
Speaker 2: that cost me only one hundred and thirteen thousand dollars
Speaker 2: and three years of my life. That aside that being
Speaker 2: able to access information that way and use it that
Speaker 2: way is really supportive in a situation like that, because
Speaker 2: I can look big picture at all the things that
Speaker 2: need to get done and all the things that we
Speaker 2: need and shave it down and make it much easier
Speaker 2: for the family members to digest afterward.
Speaker 1: Right right, more from our conversation after the break, But first,
Speaker 1: a quick snip better what's coming next week on TVG.
Speaker 3: I believe a lot of the misconceptions that I dislike
Speaker 3: that I wish we could just completely eliminate are the
Speaker 3: ones that revolve around how people perceive you based off
Speaker 3: which organization you're in. So if you say you're a
Speaker 3: Sigma woman, a Delta woman, a Zeta woman, or an
Speaker 3: Alpha woman, people instantly have this idea of how you think,
Speaker 3: how you move, how you cook, even how you navigate
Speaker 3: life in your relationships. But the reality of it is
Speaker 3: you cannot generalize us based off our organizations. If anything,
Speaker 3: that should inspire you to get to know us about
Speaker 3: our values and our morals better.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned that a lot of your work now
Speaker 1: is training other death doulas. Can you talk about what
Speaker 1: that training process looks like, what is required.
Speaker 2: To become a death doulah? That's my favorite part. Well,
Speaker 2: for starters, I think it's really important for folks to
Speaker 2: have a bit of comfort and emotional depth to not
Speaker 2: run from big emotions because there's a lot of them
Speaker 2: when death and dying come around. That doesn't mean that
Speaker 2: you can't have any In fact, I think my sensitivity
Speaker 2: and my capacity to access my emotions is really a
Speaker 2: strength for me in this work. But the training course
Speaker 2: that we have at Going with Grace is a fourteen week,
Speaker 2: fourteen module program either done online or in retreat in person.
Speaker 2: And I think any death do the training program worth
Speaker 2: its weight should have the individual look at the work
Speaker 2: through the lens of self. It's wildly important that each
Speaker 2: individual have a personal relationship with death so that we
Speaker 2: can avoid collapsing the space between ourselves and the other.
Speaker 2: If I'm clear about what my relationship with death looks like,
Speaker 2: then I won't put all my fears on you, and
Speaker 2: vice versa, I won't take yours on But we look
Speaker 2: at our conscious dying. We bring our attention to our
Speaker 2: own death. We consider the hospitals and the role of
Speaker 2: medicine in our work, even though we do non medical care.
Speaker 2: We also look at signs of dying, understand what's happening
Speaker 2: with the body. We do some natural death care, learn
Speaker 2: how to wash and prepare bodies after death. That we
Speaker 2: support family members, and we support folks in home funerals
Speaker 2: and learning about the funeral industry, legacy, ritual and meaning making,
Speaker 2: so helping folks create rituals for themselves, advance planning and
Speaker 2: advanced directives, wrapping up affairs after our loved one dies, grief, breavement, burnout,
Speaker 2: and then lastly self care and business and practice building.
Speaker 2: So the course is set up to move through all
Speaker 2: the modalities and end of life care and hope that
Speaker 2: the person who's shown up for the work can find
Speaker 2: an area that feels really good to them to carry
Speaker 2: out there.
Speaker 1: Got it. A lot of this sounds similar to what
Speaker 1: the training to become a therapist is in some ways, right,
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, like, how do you teach and how
Speaker 1: did you learn in your own training to kind of
Speaker 1: manage your own emotions around either your death or the
Speaker 1: sadness of working with somebody else who's dying, Like how
Speaker 1: are you managing your emotions related to these kinds of
Speaker 1: things happening?
Speaker 2: So many of us that come to the work of death,
Speaker 2: and I can imagine saying for therapists are highly empathic people.
Speaker 2: Most of us came because somebody died in a way
Speaker 2: that broke our hearts or experienced something so beautiful and
Speaker 2: ide like we want everybody to have it. And that
Speaker 2: means that so many of us are willing to take
Speaker 2: so much on for other people, and so I've had
Speaker 2: to work really hard on shoring up my boundaries and
Speaker 2: getting clear on what belongs to me, what is mine
Speaker 2: to carry, and what is not, because otherwise I'd just
Speaker 2: be walking around like with the weight of the world
Speaker 2: to death and grief on my shoulders. So recognizing what
Speaker 2: is mine as opposed to what belongs to somebody else
Speaker 2: is really really helpful. Can I just tell you a
Speaker 2: quick story about a client? Yeah, please, Okay. Years ago,
Speaker 2: I went to go see a client and her sister.
Speaker 2: I have three biological sisters. They were young black women,
Speaker 2: and one sister was dying, and I was with them
Speaker 2: through the time that they were there in the hospital.
Speaker 2: When the doctor came in, I would listen, ask questions,
Speaker 2: support them and making sure that they had the information
Speaker 2: they needed. And when the doctors were gone, we just
Speaker 2: we sat together for a while. At some point, the sister,
Speaker 2: who wasn't yet dying, started crying and I was overcome
Speaker 2: with emotion for her. Her sister, who was in the bed,
Speaker 2: also started crying. I started weeping with them, and when
Speaker 2: I tell you, just all my sister sadness, fears of
Speaker 2: loss came up in that space. I was certainly in
Speaker 2: my own emotional experience I was with them, but also
Speaker 2: in my own experience, I was collapsing the space between
Speaker 2: the tulus. I excused myself, got it together, and came
Speaker 2: back into the space, and then eventually went home. And
Speaker 2: I beat myself up for like a few hours, thinking, gosh,
Speaker 2: they called me to come in there and hold the container,
Speaker 2: and I collapsed directly into and I felt awful about that,
Speaker 2: just terrible. A few days later, her sister calls and
Speaker 2: she thanked me. She said, it was the first time
Speaker 2: everybody else who was coming into the space had been
Speaker 2: so professional, or they said things like sorry for your loss,
Speaker 2: or they've spoken very technical terms, and it was the
Speaker 2: first time that a professional and I'm using air quotes,
Speaker 2: expressed some humanity. And she was very grateful for that.
Speaker 2: And since then, I've given myself a lot of grace
Speaker 2: for crying, because I cry everything. I cried joy, I
Speaker 2: cry beauty, I cry frustration and anger and sadness and
Speaker 2: all the rest too. So I think as long as
Speaker 2: I can be aware of what belongs to me and
Speaker 2: what belongs to somebody else and hold my boundaries tight,
Speaker 2: then it works out.
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, and again similar to our training, like we
Speaker 1: understand that sometimes there are certain cases you can't take
Speaker 1: on because you overidentify right with the client and so
Speaker 1: then the idiot is harder to hold that boundary. I'm
Speaker 1: wondering what it looks like for you as a trainer.
Speaker 1: So maybe sometimes have to have difficult conversations with trainees
Speaker 1: about maybe you need to take a step back from
Speaker 1: the work, or like what kind of work they need
Speaker 1: to personally do to be able to hold space for
Speaker 1: a family or a person.
Speaker 2: For starters, we ask folks that have experienced to death
Speaker 2: within the last six months to circle back later because
Speaker 2: sometimes folks are coming as an expression of their own
Speaker 2: grief and they want to know heal it through this
Speaker 2: experience and maybe but also maybe just take a breath,
Speaker 2: take a minute, take a nap, and then come back
Speaker 2: and let's consider it. But next we do a lot
Speaker 2: of work around the shadow self and the space from
Speaker 2: which we are giving. Those are some tough conversations sometimes
Speaker 2: because we have people that want to come in and
Speaker 2: help everybody and fix everything, and there's no fixing death
Speaker 2: and grief and loss. And also what part of you
Speaker 2: feels like you are the one who can fix somebody
Speaker 2: else's something. What is this like save you're or healer
Speaker 2: thing that you're working with that says that it is
Speaker 2: mine to do on behalf of somebody. So making sure
Speaker 2: that folks are checking that as often as possible. And
Speaker 2: there is a really dense conversation about privilege, I think,
Speaker 2: and bias and so so much of our training also
Speaker 2: focuses on looking at the privilege that we carry to
Speaker 2: be in this position to be able to support other people,
Speaker 2: and also the privilege that we carry just by virtue
Speaker 2: of our background in our past and our history and
Speaker 2: our intersections of identity, because those often impact I think,
Speaker 2: how we want to show up to support the other person.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, thank you, thank you for that. So
Speaker 1: you mentioned that a part of why insurance does not
Speaker 1: cover this at least as yet is that they're concerns
Speaker 1: around like licensing and like figuring all of that out.
Speaker 1: Are there particular certifications that a death doulah has or
Speaker 1: like how would we vet if we are looking for
Speaker 1: somebody to provide this kind of care, how would we
Speaker 1: find like trustworthy individuals?
Speaker 2: Well, there's no official certification body, no certifying body for
Speaker 2: death dulas. However, we're organized by the National End of
Speaker 2: Life Doulah Alliance and they have a proficiency assessment that
Speaker 2: any depth do loa can take and when you pass
Speaker 2: that test, you get a little badge that you can
Speaker 2: put on your website or to whoever asks, to show
Speaker 2: that you have the basic core competencies of the work.
Speaker 2: But I suggest that when folks are looking for someplace
Speaker 2: to seek training, that you find somebody that you resonate with,
Speaker 2: like somebody that feels good in your spirit, and somebody
Speaker 2: who's doing the work the way that you would like
Speaker 2: to do it, because that's likely what you're going to
Speaker 2: learn and then up to you to decide how you
Speaker 2: carry it on out there. But for folks that are
Speaker 2: looking for a doula, I suggest first of all that
Speaker 2: you check out the National and of Life Doula Alliance
Speaker 2: to see if that person has a proficiency badge. You
Speaker 2: also look at the organization where they got their training
Speaker 2: and who are behind that organization, because since we're not
Speaker 2: licensed or credentialed in any way, there are a lot
Speaker 2: of different training programs popping up and you can get
Speaker 2: a doulah certification in two hours, or you can spend
Speaker 2: three months deep in the consideration. And so consider the organization,
Speaker 2: the person's coming from, or their background in history, because
Speaker 2: they may not have gone to get any formal training,
Speaker 2: but may have been the one that went with their
Speaker 2: grandma for years when they were growing up into the
Speaker 2: community to support the people that were dying. So there's
Speaker 2: a number of different ways to access training. Got it.
Speaker 1: So you've already offered a little bit of this, But
Speaker 1: what other suggestions would you have for somebody who's interested
Speaker 1: in completing a training to become a death DOULA.
Speaker 2: Volunteer for hospice is a great place to start also because,
Speaker 2: like I was saying, so many people are coming to
Speaker 2: this because somebody in their life died, and it's a
Speaker 2: very different ballgame to be with people that you're not
Speaker 2: emotionally connected to and they're dying. And granted, I grow
Speaker 2: close with every client that I get to be with,
Speaker 2: but being able to volunteer for hospice allowed me to
Speaker 2: see what it's like when I know these folks, and
Speaker 2: it was eye opening to see if I really wanted
Speaker 2: to do this work. It also gives you an insight
Speaker 2: into how the systems work, so that if you do
Speaker 2: choose to do the work, you can understand how to
Speaker 2: navigate it a little bit better. Read books, pick up books,
Speaker 2: talk to people about death and dying, Attend some death cafes,
Speaker 2: host a few death cafes. That's an opportunity for folks
Speaker 2: to get together just to talk about the things that
Speaker 2: are on their hearts around death and dying with no agenda.
Speaker 2: Necessarily start to be in the work, talk about it
Speaker 2: and see how it's landing for folks, and see how
Speaker 2: it's landing for you, because you might find that being
Speaker 2: the weirdo in the corner talking about death is not
Speaker 2: your jam. And if it is welcome, we'll be here
Speaker 2: waiting for you.
Speaker 1: So I had not heard the term death cafe. So
Speaker 1: is that kind of, like you said, just kind of
Speaker 1: like an open forum for people to talk about like
Speaker 1: death and dying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so death cafe is actually a branded term. There's
Speaker 2: an organization called death Cafe, and they have some rules
Speaker 2: and guidelines for hosting a death cafe. But yeah, it's
Speaker 2: an open forum. There is nothing to sell, nothing to get,
Speaker 2: but rather an opportunity for people to talk through what
Speaker 2: they're experiencing and what they're curious about.
Speaker 1: Got it more from our conversation after the break. I'm
Speaker 1: wondering if there have been some patterns that you have
Speaker 1: seen come up with clients when you are working with,
Speaker 1: specifically with the person who is towards the end of
Speaker 1: their life. Are their particular conversations or things that have
Speaker 1: been really difficult for them to deal with that you
Speaker 1: want to share with the audience.
Speaker 2: Gosh, so many of them. Every part of who we
Speaker 2: are as humans shows up as we die, and so
Speaker 2: often the things that we struggle with while we're living
Speaker 2: are going to show up and are dying as well.
Speaker 2: And perhaps this is because of who I am and
Speaker 2: where I'm at in my life right now, but I'm
Speaker 2: being called to share the conversations around surrender and vulnerability
Speaker 2: that people really really struggle with at some point in
Speaker 2: our lives. This is, if we live long enough to
Speaker 2: die as a result of disease rather than an accident
Speaker 2: or sudden death of some sort, we will become disabled.
Speaker 2: We're going to need the support of another on some level.
Speaker 2: We live in community, and we die in community as well.
Speaker 2: People don't just run off into the corner and die
Speaker 2: like some animals do, but rather it requires a whole
Speaker 2: team of people in this industrialized age, which means that
Speaker 2: folks need to learn how to surrender into receiving the
Speaker 2: support of another person. It's a lot of work, it's
Speaker 2: a big obstacle to overcome if you haven't been practicing
Speaker 2: it while you're living. And so that's one thing that
Speaker 2: comes up a lot, and I think something that Black
Speaker 2: women really also need to pay attention to, because I
Speaker 2: think for so long we've just put the weight of
Speaker 2: the world on our shoulders and on our backs and
Speaker 2: have found ways to cope and adapt to carrying it
Speaker 2: by ourselves. But we don't need to. And also, at
Speaker 2: some point we're going to have to surrender and let
Speaker 2: somebody else support us to So that's a big thing
Speaker 2: that comes up often.
Speaker 1: It feels like that conversation is coming up in so
Speaker 1: many spaces right like that in all of these conversations
Speaker 1: around black women, Like this idea of surrender and vulnerability
Speaker 1: and like being able to ask for help feels like
Speaker 1: a theme across so many different areas.
Speaker 2: It's time. It's time. I am tired of being strong.
Speaker 2: Let me just keep it all the way real but
Speaker 2: then also noticing how hard it is sometimes for me
Speaker 2: to just accept when somebody is showing up to help. Well,
Speaker 2: I want to feel like I have it all together,
Speaker 2: but you know, surrendering into the help of another doesn't
Speaker 2: mean I'm not strong. And also what values are and
Speaker 2: strong I don't want to have to be. I'm okay
Speaker 2: with being tender and a delicate flower, which I actually am.
Speaker 1: So for the clients that you work with who are
Speaker 1: not necessarily aware that they are at the end of
Speaker 1: their life, so they're doing more kind of preventive kinds
Speaker 1: of things getting their affairs together, can you talk about
Speaker 1: some of the things that you talk with them about
Speaker 1: to kind of get them started on this path of
Speaker 1: dealing with the end of their life, because I don't think,
Speaker 1: you know, like most of us are not in the
Speaker 1: grocery store talking about death like you're saying, so, how
Speaker 1: do you even enter into that conversation.
Speaker 2: Well, most of these people called me and so they're
Speaker 2: ready for it in some capacity, But a lot of
Speaker 2: them are coming because of an event in their lives.
Speaker 2: I can think of a client not that long ago
Speaker 2: who had a pulmonary embolism that ended her in the
Speaker 2: hospital for over three weeks, and once she came out
Speaker 2: of the hospital, she was like, listen, I'm healthy again,
Speaker 2: but let's get this together. I also have a lot
Speaker 2: of clients that are raising children that have elderly parents
Speaker 2: or watching their parents die and don't want that experience
Speaker 2: for themselves. They don't want to recreate it for their kids,
Speaker 2: and so they're like, let me get as much together
Speaker 2: as I can right now. And so often people are
Speaker 2: starting to think about it, and then they call and say, hey,
Speaker 2: this is just an idea. What do you think? And
Speaker 2: sometimes a conversation is, well, I don't think I'm dying
Speaker 2: right now, so why should I plan? And so that
Speaker 2: I always say, well, how soon it's too soon to
Speaker 2: start preparing for something you know one day is going
Speaker 2: to happen. I'm a last minute for sure. I know
Speaker 2: I'm going on a trip about the flight, but I
Speaker 2: wait until the last minute before I go. I'm not
Speaker 2: going to be that way with my dying. I'm gonna
Speaker 2: spend some time. I've been spending the rest of my
Speaker 2: life thinking about it and preparing myself in some capacity.
Speaker 2: And so let's like we can warm up to the
Speaker 2: question and to the idea.
Speaker 1: Got it, got it, And I'm wondering, what is the transition?
Speaker 1: Is the best word I can think of that maybe accurate.
Speaker 1: Like you are somebody who's like kind of constantly working
Speaker 1: with people who are their lives are ending, and so
Speaker 1: you become very close with the family, it sounds like,
Speaker 1: and so it's one of the only professions I can
Speaker 1: think of where you're constantly having to kind of deal
Speaker 1: with these relationships ending. What does the aftercare process look
Speaker 1: like for yourself when continuing to support yourself and doing
Speaker 1: this work.
Speaker 2: It's not so glamorous immediately afterward. It looks like potato chips.
Speaker 2: Looks like kettle potato chips, mostly the salt and vinegar ones.
Speaker 2: Something about the fat and the crunch and the salt,
Speaker 2: and like the bite in my jaw reminds me. It
Speaker 2: grounds me back in my body. I think it's an
Speaker 2: embodiment practice that I'm not conscious of, but it brings
Speaker 2: me right back into the body, that allows me to
Speaker 2: show up those boundaries again and remember that this is
Speaker 2: mine and all that is not all the rest I
Speaker 2: don't have to carry anymore. I often take baths also
Speaker 2: when I get back from seeing clients sitting in the
Speaker 2: water and sitting there and watching as it all goes
Speaker 2: back down the drain for it to wash away what
Speaker 2: I'm carrying that isn't mine. As we're talking before about
Speaker 2: shadow work and being clear about what place I'm giving from,
Speaker 2: how I showed up in that space giving myself and
Speaker 2: my clients a lot of grace. But longer term, I
Speaker 2: stay in touch with some of my clients, the family
Speaker 2: members after their death and learning how to start shifting
Speaker 2: the dynamic of the relationship from one where I was
Speaker 2: available all the time and in a really deep emotional
Speaker 2: experience for them to one that allows them to be
Speaker 2: on their process with some support in the background. I
Speaker 2: also cry a lot. I grieve a lot. I grieve
Speaker 2: for my clients. I grieve with my clients. I grieve
Speaker 2: for myself because as you were, I think alluding to
Speaker 2: I've grown in relationship with these people and then they die,
Speaker 2: and my heartbreaks every time I think I've just gotten
Speaker 2: better attending to it through my tears and my crunch
Speaker 2: of potato chips.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for sharing it. So you already shared
Speaker 1: that a lot of people kind of are brought to
Speaker 1: this work because there is a death, experience of some
Speaker 1: experience in their life, and then they think, Oh, I
Speaker 1: want to do this for work. I'm curious to know
Speaker 1: what has this work taught you about living and what
Speaker 1: do you feel like clients have kind of shared about
Speaker 1: life as they are nearing the end of their lives.
Speaker 2: It's the most basic thing. But this work has just
Speaker 2: taught me again and again about the power of our
Speaker 2: time and our existence and the miracle is to be living.
Speaker 2: Being present in a room where life has just left
Speaker 2: a body is profound. Not only does it humble me
Speaker 2: to the incredible mystery of life, but it also reminds
Speaker 2: me that I still have it for now. My body
Speaker 2: is still animated by that intangible thing that allows me
Speaker 2: to make eye contact and to eat cake, and to
Speaker 2: dance in the rain, and to sit and stare at
Speaker 2: a bird for a while, to speak my truth, to
Speaker 2: do what I want when I want to the extent
Speaker 2: that I can within the legal rules, and all that
Speaker 2: is an invitation into life. So being around dying repeatedly
Speaker 2: is an invitation into life. And I'm grateful, very grateful.
Speaker 1: So you've shared this a little bit, but I definitely
Speaker 1: want to talk more. You're preparing to release your first book,
Speaker 1: briefly Perfect Human. So can you tell us a little
Speaker 1: bit about the book and how you want readers to
Speaker 1: engage with it and what you want us to take
Speaker 1: away from it?
Speaker 2: Oh? My yes, this book is was really an opportunity
Speaker 2: for me to lay out my thoughts and ideas around
Speaker 2: how we die. It's a memoir, so it tracks my
Speaker 2: journey into death care from the practice of law and
Speaker 2: my life thus far, looking back and seeing how death
Speaker 2: had been interacting with my life all the way up
Speaker 2: in and through arriving at death care. And it also
Speaker 2: highlights a decent amount of my client stories. So readers,
Speaker 2: I think, have an opportunity to look at their lives
Speaker 2: through the perspective of their own death through mine as
Speaker 2: an example, and also learn a little bit about the
Speaker 2: practice and the work itself, and also hopefully chuckle a
Speaker 2: little bit. I think I'm hilarious. I was making myself
Speaker 2: laugh as I was writing the book, and I think
Speaker 2: that some of that carried through. My hope is as
Speaker 2: I was saying before, I hope that this book serves
Speaker 2: as an invitation into the lives of the people that
Speaker 2: are reading it, as a reminder that this life is
Speaker 2: fleeting and precious, and that being here for all it
Speaker 2: can be a tremendous gift, not to discount the absolute
Speaker 2: privilege it is to be able to think about our
Speaker 2: mortality consistently and just even to take a time to
Speaker 2: read a book, but to be with the fact that
Speaker 2: one day I'll die, and to use it in a
Speaker 2: way that serves my life. Yeah, that's a gift.
Speaker 1: Beautiful, beautiful, Thank you so much. I think people will
Speaker 1: enjoy this read. So tell us where we can stay
Speaker 1: connected with you, Alula. What is your website and your
Speaker 1: social media channels and where can we find a copy.
Speaker 2: Of the book? Sure, you can find us anywhere on
Speaker 2: the internet at goingwigrace dot com or on Instagram also
Speaker 2: going with Grace, but with some underscores. Otherwise you'll end
Speaker 2: up at like a yellow labrador or dog someplace in
Speaker 2: Kentucky and that's not me. You can find the book
Speaker 2: any major retailer for books. But also please strongly consider
Speaker 2: supporting your independent bookstores. They need our support. Place Places, Place, place, Please.
Speaker 2: You can find them at bookshop dot org. If you're
Speaker 2: not sure, we're an independent book stories near you. And yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm out in the world, so hopefully you'll see me someplace.
Speaker 2: I'll be in Seattle and LA and New York in
Speaker 2: the coming weeks, and workshops and trainings and webinars and
Speaker 2: the whole night perfect.
Speaker 1: We will short to include all of that in our
Speaker 1: show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time
Speaker 1: with us today. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me, Doctor Joy.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'm so glad Ailoua was able to join us
Speaker 1: to share her expertise for this episode. To learn more
Speaker 1: about her and her work, and to grab a copy
Speaker 1: of her memoir, visit the show notes at Therapy for
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot Com slash Session three, p. Fifty five and
Speaker 1: don't forget to text two of your girls right now
Speaker 1: and tell them to check out the episode. If you're
Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And
Speaker 1: if you want to continue digging into this topic or
Speaker 1: just be in community with other sisters, come on over
Speaker 1: and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy
Speaker 1: corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You
Speaker 1: can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Frieda Lucas, Elise Ellis and
Speaker 1: Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all
Speaker 1: so much for joining me again this week. I look
Speaker 1: forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.
Speaker 2: Take good care, what's