Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional.
Speaker 2: Hey, y'all, thanks.
Speaker 1: So much for joining me for session three fifty six
Speaker 1: of the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right
Speaker 1: into our conversation after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2: Hi.
Speaker 3: I'm doctor uj Blackstock and I'm on the Therapy for
Speaker 3: Black Girls Podcast. I'm in session today unpacking the historical
Speaker 3: relationship between black people and hospitals.
Speaker 1: It's no secret that the relationship between black people and
Speaker 1: the healthcare system is a fraught one, and as medical
Speaker 1: racism continues to go unaddressed, we're seeing more and more
Speaker 1: negative health outcomes for black patients, including the perpetuation of
Speaker 1: harmful conspiracy theories, and hesitance to seek medical help when
Speaker 1: in need. Joining me today to talk about the history
Speaker 1: and statistics behind some of these outcomes is health advocate
Speaker 1: and New York Times bestselling author doctor U. J.
Speaker 2: Blackstock.
Speaker 1: Doctor Blackstock is the founder and CEO of Advancing Health Equity,
Speaker 1: an organization created with the mission of partnering with healthcare
Speaker 1: organizations to dismantle racism and healthcare and to close the
Speaker 1: gap and racial health inequities. During our conversation, we discuss
Speaker 1: some of the most prevalent examples of hospital neglect experienced
Speaker 1: by black patients, how healthcare systems can better engage with
Speaker 1: black communities in order to engender trust, and how black
Speaker 1: medical students can find support while studying to become physicians.
Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please
Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag TPG
Speaker 1: in session or join us over in the Sister Circle
Speaker 1: To talk more about the episode. You can join us
Speaker 1: at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me today, Doctor blacksc
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: For having me. I'm so excited to talk to you.
Speaker 2: He is a pleasure to see you again.
Speaker 3: You too, it's been a little while.
Speaker 1: Indeed, it's essence best, right, we're rolling up on Essence
Speaker 1: time again this year.
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you are a highly accomplished author, New York Times
Speaker 1: bestselling author, a physician, and a health equity advocate. But
Speaker 1: I want you to take us back to your time
Speaker 1: at Harvard as a medical student. Can you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about what that experience was like in a
Speaker 1: field that is predominantly not made up of us.
Speaker 3: It's interesting because I should also reflect on how I
Speaker 3: grew up. I grew up thinking that most physicians were
Speaker 3: black because my mother was a physician, my pediatrician was
Speaker 3: a black woman. All of the physicians I was surrounded
Speaker 3: by growing up were black, and a lot of them
Speaker 3: were black women. So it really wasn't until I got
Speaker 3: older and to medical school that I realized how few
Speaker 3: of us there were and that environment. I would say
Speaker 3: it was striking in a way for me because our
Speaker 3: numbers were so small. But with in my class there
Speaker 3: were a decent number of black students. But when I
Speaker 3: think back on my experience during medical school, there was
Speaker 3: so much that we didn't learn about, right, like We
Speaker 3: never talked about racial health inequities. There is this Western
Speaker 3: biomedical model of how medicine is taught that it's all
Speaker 3: about the physician and the patient without really recognizing all
Speaker 3: of the systemic factors that impact health. And that was
Speaker 3: something that I did not learn in medical school that
Speaker 3: I had to learn during my residency in emergency medicine
Speaker 3: when I was working at a public hospital in Brooklyn,
Speaker 3: and afterwards as a practicing physician. So there was so
Speaker 3: much that I didn't learn. There were so many things
Speaker 3: that were implicitly taught about differences between black patients and
Speaker 3: other patients, like that there were differences in kidney function
Speaker 3: right between their normal values for black patients and normal
Speaker 3: values for non black patients, but we were never really
Speaker 3: told why got it?
Speaker 2: Imagine that as you continued in your career.
Speaker 1: I know you started out in academic medicine, right, and
Speaker 1: so was a part of you wanting to go into
Speaker 1: practicing medicine in that way spurred by learning.
Speaker 2: All these things that you wanted to then make right
Speaker 2: for students.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it was
Speaker 3: having a mother who was a physician, seeing all the
Speaker 3: work she was doing in our community with other black
Speaker 3: physicians and seeing her. I read about this in my
Speaker 3: book about seeing her, how she interacted with her patients,
Speaker 3: really understanding the full context social political in which they
Speaker 3: were living, and understanding that when her patients saw her
Speaker 3: wasn't just about what was happening in that room, in
Speaker 3: that exam room, that it was really more about what
Speaker 3: was happening in their lives and their communities at work,
Speaker 3: that all of that impacts health. So when I went
Speaker 3: to medical school and after medical school, I always knew
Speaker 3: that I wanted to work in service to our community.
Speaker 3: And that's when I became really aware of the racial
Speaker 3: health inequities that we have in our community as relates
Speaker 3: to Black maternal mortality, life expectancy, how we're more often
Speaker 3: to carry the burden of chronic disease. And what I
Speaker 3: recognized also was that this was very little about the
Speaker 3: individual choices that we were making as black people, and
Speaker 3: more so had to do with the fact that there
Speaker 3: are systems and practices and policies in place related to
Speaker 3: racism that impact our health and getting really clear about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So talk to us a little bit more about legacy.
Speaker 1: So Legacy is your book. Legacy a black physician reckons
Speaker 1: with racism in medicine. So you shared a little bit
Speaker 1: about the fact that you wrote about your mom and
Speaker 1: her journey as a physician. But what else might we
Speaker 1: be able to expect as a part of legacy.
Speaker 3: Well, legacy it has a double meaning, right, so as
Speaker 3: you allude to about being a second generation black woman physician,
Speaker 3: which is something that unfortunately today in twenty twenty four,
Speaker 3: is still so rare, Like the fact that my twin
Speaker 3: sister Onie and I and our mom were the first
Speaker 3: black mother Daughter legacy graduates from Harvard Medical School, and
Speaker 3: that was two thousand and five when Oni and I
Speaker 3: graduate waited. Since then, there's only been one other Black
Speaker 3: mother Daughter Legacy graduate, So that speaks to the work
Speaker 3: that these institutions have to do, like that is not acceptable, right. Also,
Speaker 3: just celebrating the journey and the work that my mother
Speaker 3: did in her short life. She died at forty seven
Speaker 3: from acute milogenous leukemia, and there was so much more
Speaker 3: that she could have done because she was doing health
Speaker 3: equity work at a time when we weren't even using
Speaker 3: that expression, right, she was doing work on behalf of
Speaker 3: the community, organizing community health fairs and working with her
Speaker 3: colleagues to make things better for residents and neighbors. But
Speaker 3: the other legacy piece is this history of medical racism.
Speaker 3: That the reason why in twenty twenty four that we're
Speaker 3: seeing these health and equities, especially in black communities, and
Speaker 3: the reason why they actually are worstening, is because of
Speaker 3: a deeply rooted history of racism, not only in medicine,
Speaker 3: but in all other aspects of society that negatively impact
Speaker 3: Black health. So I wanted to be able to use
Speaker 3: this book to help connect the dots for a broad audience,
Speaker 3: not just people even in medicine, not it's just people
Speaker 3: in healthcare, but for the general public to understand the history,
Speaker 3: to understand the current day, and to understand why we're
Speaker 3: seeing these appalling statistics, and then ending the book with
Speaker 3: a call to action for different groups about how you
Speaker 3: can make a difference. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I want to spend some times a day, doctor
Speaker 1: Black sat talking more about hospital neglect.
Speaker 2: And I wondered if you could talk.
Speaker 1: With us about some of the most prevalent examples of
Speaker 1: hospital neglect you have seen for Black patients.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think there's so many in so
Speaker 3: many different ways. I think one of the main areas
Speaker 3: is how when black patients go to seek care, often
Speaker 3: our concerns are dismiss minimized, and ignored. Happens more often
Speaker 3: for black women, and we're seeing that contributes to some
Speaker 3: of the poor outcomes, especially for black birthing people, that
Speaker 3: when they are presenting with saying I'm having bleeding or
Speaker 3: I'm not feeling like myself or I'm having swelling in
Speaker 3: my legs, health professionals are not listening to them. Another
Speaker 3: area is around pain and how pain is treated and
Speaker 3: not treated, how it's undertreated specifically. But we know and
Speaker 3: we have studies that show that even in twenty sixteen,
Speaker 3: there was a study of medical students and residents that
Speaker 3: showed that some of them believed in these false myths
Speaker 3: about differences between black patients and other patients that we
Speaker 3: had thicker skin were less sensitive to pain, and because
Speaker 3: of that, this study actually showed that it was a
Speaker 3: mock case between a black patient and a white patient,
Speaker 3: but showed that those students and residents were less likely
Speaker 3: to treat the black patient's pain than the white patient's pain,
Speaker 3: even though everything was similar except the race of the patients.
Speaker 3: What we have in our healthcare system, our health professionals
Speaker 3: who they think that they are providing equitable care, They
Speaker 3: think that they're doing their best, but the fact is
Speaker 3: that they are just like every other American. They're absorbing
Speaker 3: all this cultural messaging that's anti black, anti black women,
Speaker 3: that actually impacts how they make decisions about care.
Speaker 1: So I want to doctor black Clack, if you can
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about what is the treatment for this?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about medical school curriculum
Speaker 1: and what kinds of things is the field aware of
Speaker 1: this outside of you and the other physicians who are
Speaker 1: preaching on the hiel about this, Is the field aware
Speaker 1: of this and what kinds of things are being done
Speaker 1: to combat some of these misconceptions?
Speaker 3: I mean, yes, they are very much aware of this.
Speaker 3: Are they doing the work that needs to be done,
Speaker 3: the deep work. That's one of the reasons why I
Speaker 3: wrote Legacy, because I don't think they are doing enough.
Speaker 3: Some of these issues are just so deeply rooted in
Speaker 3: our medical education system, like there's just been a gap
Speaker 3: in what we've been learning. But I also want to
Speaker 3: say that a lot of this has to stick or
Speaker 3: even before medical school, because we can't have pre med
Speaker 3: students coming into medical school already holding these biases in
Speaker 3: their heads. Right. So that's why it's so important, even
Speaker 3: starting as early as possible in our educational system, that
Speaker 3: we are making future health professionals aware of what the
Speaker 3: history is, aware of what the current day situation is
Speaker 3: for black patients that are interfacing with the healthcare system.
Speaker 3: So yes, medical schools need to do their part, and
Speaker 3: what the part is making sure they're teaching about one,
Speaker 3: medical racism, the history of it, but also teaching about
Speaker 3: what are the experiences of black patients today in twenty
Speaker 3: twenty four when they seek health care right, and what
Speaker 3: is the responsibility and the obligation of health professionals when
Speaker 3: they're caring for black patients, And that one it's so
Speaker 3: simple as to say, like, truly listen to them, truly
Speaker 3: listen to us, and understand that we are also human,
Speaker 3: we also feel pain, we also suffer right, but also
Speaker 3: understanding the context in which we live in this country,
Speaker 3: that there's so many things that actually the outside of healthcare,
Speaker 3: in terms of education, housing, employment, that also impact our health.
Speaker 3: So I think that medical schools have an obligation to
Speaker 3: educate future physicians to understand the experiences of their black
Speaker 3: patients and to respond to those experiences and to care
Speaker 3: for us in a holistic way. And so medical schools
Speaker 3: have a lot of work to do because they're not
Speaker 3: doing their work, and a lot of it is because
Speaker 3: of the current political environment that we're in. We know
Speaker 3: that there's that act that was brought forth recently, a
Speaker 3: federal bill called the Educate Act that is to defund
Speaker 3: medical schools that have diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives. And
Speaker 3: how could that be that in twenty twenty four, when
Speaker 3: we're seeing the actually worsening of racial health and equities,
Speaker 3: that these sort of legislative bills are brought forward.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it really all is just like a
Speaker 1: microcosm for everything we are seeing in every other area
Speaker 1: of our lives. Because you've already alluded to, and you
Speaker 1: wrote about in the book that less than two percent
Speaker 1: of physicians are actually black women, right, and so when
Speaker 1: you already talked about these institutions needing to do a
Speaker 1: better job of bringing in people, but also when the
Speaker 1: students are there, We've had conversations on the podcast about
Speaker 1: the treatment that sometimes happens when black women are in
Speaker 1: medical school and even the treatment of faculty, like how
Speaker 1: many faculty are pushed out or leave for their own
Speaker 1: sanity or health. Right, So it feels really difficult to
Speaker 1: figure out, like how you break into and make some
Speaker 1: differences in this kind of system when it does feel
Speaker 1: like the system is largely just miserable and built to
Speaker 1: work against us.
Speaker 3: Now absolutely, and I write in the book about my
Speaker 3: students that I work with and that A mentored, who
Speaker 3: had their own experiences where they were just in medical
Speaker 3: school to learn how to be a doctor, but instead
Speaker 3: they had to focus on these DII efforts because the
Speaker 3: school wasn't doing enough, and so when they should have
Speaker 3: been focusing on their work, they had to do all
Speaker 3: the heavy lifting, right, and then they have to deal
Speaker 3: with microaggressions and they have to deal with as we know,
Speaker 3: the data shows how black students are evaluated differently than
Speaker 3: other students. The words used to describe us in our
Speaker 3: evaluations are different.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: So it's like you said, even once we get into
Speaker 3: these environments, right, getting into medical schools was just part
Speaker 3: of it. Then once you're in medical school, were often
Speaker 3: environments that are not supportive and hospitable to us. So
Speaker 3: it's again, at every step of the way, there are
Speaker 3: these barriers and challenges, right and even as a faculty,
Speaker 3: I write about how I was in academic medicine for
Speaker 3: ten years. I thought that was going to be my future.
Speaker 3: Got appointed to a DEI role in our Office of
Speaker 3: Diversity Affairs and really got to see what the institution
Speaker 3: was about, and they were not about supporting me. So
Speaker 3: I had to make very difficult decision. I call it
Speaker 3: a life saving decision actually because when I look back,
Speaker 3: I was very unhappy. But also I say I had
Speaker 3: forgotten I was someone that had gifts to share, because
Speaker 3: often when we black women are in these predominantly white environments,
Speaker 3: they undervalue us and underappreciate us so much that we
Speaker 3: lose sight of what we have to offer. So leaving
Speaker 3: that environment for me, even though I say, I was
Speaker 3: very very scared, because people don't leave academic medicine. It's
Speaker 3: very secure. I mean, I had multiple roles, multiple titles.
Speaker 3: People would have looked at me and thought I was happy,
Speaker 3: but I was actually miserable. And so like I say,
Speaker 3: I made that life saving decision because I was not
Speaker 3: thriving in that environment. When I look back at pictures
Speaker 3: that I took during that time, I'd lost a lot
Speaker 3: of weight. I wasn't sleeping at circles under my eyes.
Speaker 3: You know how you can look back at old pictures
Speaker 3: and be like, oh, that was not a good time.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So a lot of times as black women were forced
Speaker 3: into these situations where we have to make these tough
Speaker 3: decisions where like do we stay do we leave? I
Speaker 3: left financial security, but I also left an environment that
Speaker 3: was psychologically violent to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, but first, a
Speaker 1: quick snippet of what's coming up next week on TVG.
Speaker 4: When you should on yourself, you literally put the shoulds
Speaker 4: on you and you are judging. So a should signals
Speaker 4: judgment the minute you use it in your vocabulary. I
Speaker 4: should mother this way. I should get married at twenty
Speaker 4: six because that's what women do. I should have a baby.
Speaker 4: I should pursue this career path because this is what
Speaker 4: I went to school for. And it doesn't matter if
Speaker 4: I really like art. I should be a lawyer because
Speaker 4: that's what I got my degree in.
Speaker 1: And I wonder if you can talk a little bit
Speaker 1: more about what kinds of things helped you to make
Speaker 1: that kind of decision. Because I would imagine many of
Speaker 1: the people who are listening to our conversation now may
Speaker 1: find themselves in a similar situation right and not sure,
Speaker 1: like how do I take this leap? Or I know
Speaker 1: this isn't healthy for me, but I'm not sure what
Speaker 1: to do. Can you share a little bit about your process?
Speaker 3: I mean, I always say I consulted with my village.
Speaker 3: I have a wonderful therapist that I've been working with
Speaker 3: for the last five years, and she has seen me
Speaker 3: through some very very difficult times. But just working with her,
Speaker 3: I feel like gave me permission to deviate off of
Speaker 3: that path that I thought I had to take. Especially
Speaker 3: in medicine, many of us are like, Okay, we're like
Speaker 3: checking off boxes. I talk about right pre med check,
Speaker 3: medical school, residency check, faculty position or job check right.
Speaker 3: And I realized I was just like going through the
Speaker 3: motions and not really thinking at each step. It's just
Speaker 3: really what you want to do, Chay. So working with
Speaker 3: my therapist, Shinikua. She doesn't mind me saying her name,
Speaker 3: but working with her really helped me through those very tough,
Speaker 3: tough moments. When I look back, I'm like, I don't
Speaker 3: even know how I got through it, but I know
Speaker 3: it was because of our bi weekly sessions where I
Speaker 3: was given permission to think bigger. I was reminded that
Speaker 3: I was someone that had gifts to share. And it's
Speaker 3: interesting when my book came out a few months ago,
Speaker 3: she sent me flowers and with a note and she said,
Speaker 3: I've always seen the magic in you, and so you
Speaker 3: just need those kind of people in your life. Of course,
Speaker 3: I have my twin sister, Onni, who was there every
Speaker 3: day supporting me. I would call her crying. And then
Speaker 3: my girlfriends. I talked to them. Many of them maybe
Speaker 3: they were not in the same position as I was,
Speaker 3: but they saw how upsetting it was for me and
Speaker 3: encouraged me and said, you don't need to have an
Speaker 3: institutional affiliation. You don't need all the things that you
Speaker 3: think you're supposed to have to feel important, like you
Speaker 3: are enough on your own. And that was definitely a
Speaker 3: process that I had to internalize that knowing that I
Speaker 3: did not need to be affiliated with NYU, I didn't
Speaker 3: need to be associate professor to know that I still
Speaker 3: can make an impact. And actually, what I recognized was listen.
Speaker 3: Once I left that environment that was so incredibly stifling
Speaker 3: to me. It was just abundance flowed opportunities that I
Speaker 3: never thought would open up for me, opened up, doors opened.
Speaker 3: So if you had told me five years ago I
Speaker 3: would be where I am today, I would have been like, really, no,
Speaker 3: I don't think so, but truly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1: I appreciate hearing about that because I think, again, many people,
Speaker 1: when we're checking off these boxes, we're just following what
Speaker 1: we think we're supposed to do and don't ever really
Speaker 1: check in with ourselves about whether this is.
Speaker 2: Something that feels right for me.
Speaker 1: You've already shared so much about like all of the
Speaker 1: racism and all the other isms that impact the care
Speaker 1: that black people get as a part of the medical institution,
Speaker 1: And I think an unfortunate byproduct of that is that
Speaker 1: there is often a lot of conspiracy theory, a lot
Speaker 1: of misinformation and disinformation that continues to be perpetuated in
Speaker 1: the black community related to medicine. I mean we saw
Speaker 1: that of course most recently related to the vaccine, and
Speaker 1: just warranted concern about like whether this is something that
Speaker 1: is going to be good for us. So can you
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about like how that kind of
Speaker 1: system continues to perpetuate given what we know about medical institutions.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting because that misinformation or disinformation. I get
Speaker 3: it in a way because I talk about how healthcare institutions,
Speaker 3: all different societal institutions, have proven themselves untrustworthy to black
Speaker 3: people for a very long time. Right, So, like I
Speaker 3: think about, how can you expect us, when there is
Speaker 3: a pandemic out of the blue, to then be like, Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna get vaccinated when we have this not only
Speaker 3: the history but the current da mious treatment of black
Speaker 3: people in healthcare settings. And so that's why I think
Speaker 3: is so important one that we have black health professionals
Speaker 3: who are out there speaking up using our platforms. And
Speaker 3: that's why for me it was so important. I never
Speaker 3: thought I would do like health communications or media work,
Speaker 3: but I saw that when the pandemic started, given all
Speaker 3: the misinformation that was out there, even from the presidential administration,
Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, we got to get out there.
Speaker 3: Black folks who are in health, we got to get
Speaker 3: out there to make sure that our communities have the
Speaker 3: information they need to make an informed decision. Like no
Speaker 3: one's trying to force anything on anyone I just want
Speaker 3: to make sure that we have the information to make
Speaker 3: an informed decision, and I think that is critical. The
Speaker 3: other thing I think is it's a reminder of when
Speaker 3: healthcare institutions don't center or have not centered Black communities,
Speaker 3: that you don't engender trust. Right. I talk about in
Speaker 3: the book how even my barber, I store my hair
Speaker 3: really short in my twenties. My barber and I still
Speaker 3: see him all the time in my neighborhood. We stop
Speaker 3: and talk. But he reached out to me about a
Speaker 3: year after the vaccine came out and said, I really
Speaker 3: want to talk to you because I don't have insurance,
Speaker 3: I don't have a primary care doctor. You're the only
Speaker 3: doctor I know, and you're the only.
Speaker 2: Doctor I trust.
Speaker 3: A year after and we talked like for an hour
Speaker 3: on the phone with his adult daughter, who also had
Speaker 3: not been vaccinated yet. He asked me the most thoughtful questions,
Speaker 3: and one thing he said to me is like, I
Speaker 3: know that there are other folks like doctor Anthony Fauci
Speaker 3: on television saying I should take this vaccine, but I
Speaker 3: don't trust him. I don't know who he is. He is,
Speaker 3: and I trust you. So that's why I think It
Speaker 3: is so, so so important that the investments in our
Speaker 3: community happen in terms of creating a strong relationship between
Speaker 3: the healthcare system and our community. It should be ongoing
Speaker 3: because we saw what happens when it's not ongoing, and
Speaker 3: that kind of environment allows that misinformation and disinformation to spread,
Speaker 3: where people tell me, oh, my hairdresser or my barber
Speaker 3: told me that the vaccine doesn't work, or just like
Speaker 3: inaccurate information, people were listening to people who were not
Speaker 3: even in healthcare.
Speaker 1: Yeah, getting information from all kinds.
Speaker 3: Of places I know, or like you know, social media
Speaker 3: or somewhat's app thread, and that is dangerous.
Speaker 1: It's dangerous. We also know that there's also a large
Speaker 1: focus I think again rightfully so on like more natural
Speaker 1: kinds of ways to take care of ourselves.
Speaker 2: Can you speak to how.
Speaker 1: We can kind of vet information about the people orn't
Speaker 1: necessarily wanting to sign up for like more traditional kinds
Speaker 1: of medicine. What kinds of things can we do to
Speaker 1: kind of vet sources into really integrate maybe more natural
Speaker 1: ways of healing into our practices. Oh?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think that's such an important question because again,
Speaker 3: my training is from the western biomedical model, traditional right,
Speaker 3: and we know that there are other ways that people
Speaker 3: can care for themselves in a more holistic way. But yes,
Speaker 3: making sure the source of the information is important. So
Speaker 3: I always say, just to make sure that people are
Speaker 3: vetting the source, looking at the background of this person,
Speaker 3: What kind of experience, what kind of training.
Speaker 1: Do they have?
Speaker 3: Do other people who are responsible trusted messengers? Do they
Speaker 3: follow these people? Are they people who others can co
Speaker 3: sign on that what they're saying is accurate information? So
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter how many followers someone has, but maybe
Speaker 3: reading up on them, reading up on their background, I
Speaker 3: think could be helpful.
Speaker 1: Can you share some of your favorite websites or podcasts
Speaker 1: or other kinds of things where you send people for
Speaker 1: like trusted information.
Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting.
Speaker 3: I feel like I sent them to myself and I'm kidding.
Speaker 3: I'm kidding, but no, I feel like there are a
Speaker 3: lot of black health influencers in different specialties that I
Speaker 3: can co sign because I know them personally, like doctor
Speaker 3: Heather or Abunda who is an obstetric gynecologist, or doctor
Speaker 3: Camilla Phillips, who I've known since I was very very
Speaker 3: young person. I also think that we have to remember
Speaker 3: that groups like the National Medical Association, the largest and
Speaker 3: oldest organization of black physicians. They have a lot of
Speaker 3: great resources on their website. Health in her Hue also,
Speaker 3: which is a startup that was founded by doctor Ashley Wisdom,
Speaker 3: has a directory of health professionals that are trained to
Speaker 3: care for black women and women of color. But they
Speaker 3: also have a lot of educational content on their website
Speaker 3: people can use that it has been vetted thoroughly. And
Speaker 3: then for people who are interested in maternal health issues,
Speaker 3: there's an app called the Earth app Irt started by
Speaker 3: a black woman also that has a lot of information,
Speaker 3: really accurate information about the birthing process and also has
Speaker 3: a provider directory too.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for sharing it.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, doctor Blacksack, I
Speaker 1: wonder if you could say more about how our mistrust
Speaker 1: and distrust of medical institutions and hospitals really impacts health
Speaker 1: outcomes for black people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's like the other impact, right, So when
Speaker 3: we have a very high burden of unmet needs in
Speaker 3: our communities, because when people don't trust the healthcare system
Speaker 3: and they're not feeling well, they end up not pursuing
Speaker 3: care or not seeking care. So what happens is they're
Speaker 3: having symptoms, whether it's lightheadedness, chest pain, whatever it may be,
Speaker 3: it ends up progressing. So by the time they do
Speaker 3: seek treatment, they are sicker than they would have been.
Speaker 3: They may have more advanced cancer, they may have uncontrolled
Speaker 3: high blood pressure or diabetes that lead to more complications, harm,
Speaker 3: and even death. So that's why I think it's so
Speaker 3: important that the way that we frame this sort of
Speaker 3: mistrust and distrust for health care that is actually ends
Speaker 3: up being very, very harmful for us. But again, it's
Speaker 3: up to the institutions to center our communities, center our voices,
Speaker 3: our priorities and needs, and to do that in gendering
Speaker 3: the trust process that is so so important.
Speaker 1: We've talked about this a little bit, but I love
Speaker 1: to hear more of your thoughts. One of the I
Speaker 1: think most awful outcomes of everything that happened with the
Speaker 1: pandemic was a loss of trust for institutions that I
Speaker 1: think largely had been credible and specifically, I'm thinking about
Speaker 1: the Centers for Disease Control, right, like the CDC. I
Speaker 1: had always thought the CDC like, okay, this is like
Speaker 1: the goal star of information if anything, happens like they're
Speaker 1: going to have the right information, They're going to like
Speaker 1: steer us, right. But I think in the pandemic we
Speaker 1: largely saw and I think political reasons were behind this,
Speaker 1: but that we could not even trust I think some
Speaker 1: of the information coming from the CDC. So what is
Speaker 1: the work that institutions like the CDC need to do
Speaker 1: to regain the public's trust so that we can't have
Speaker 1: a public health field again?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: It's so interesting because the CDC is a predominantly white
Speaker 3: institution and it has the same issues internally right in
Speaker 3: terms of representation of black folks, in terms of prioritizing
Speaker 3: health equity as every other organization, so they are not
Speaker 3: immune to that. I think that the pandemic showed us
Speaker 3: that there is so much self reflection and inner work
Speaker 3: that the CDC needs to do. And what does that
Speaker 3: look like. That looks like engaging with communities, that looks
Speaker 3: like hiring, retaining, promoting black public health professionals, that looks
Speaker 3: like prioritizing what ideal health equity looks like. And there's
Speaker 3: so many opportunities for them to partner with black led
Speaker 3: organizations that are already embedded in the community. Right. I
Speaker 3: think that is how they can engender trust, like investing
Speaker 3: resources funding into organizations. Because there's so many organizations out
Speaker 3: there that are already doing the work, how can we.
Speaker 1: Lift up their work?
Speaker 3: And I think the CDC needs to think about what
Speaker 3: kind of partnerships can they do with community based organizations
Speaker 3: that are already doing the work, that already have relationships
Speaker 3: with community members and not reinvent the wheel.
Speaker 1: So in the meantime, why we are waiting for these
Speaker 1: systems to change? We know that means that there is
Speaker 1: a lot of work that needs to be on the
Speaker 1: individual right in terms of advocating for themselves and doing
Speaker 1: all these things. What suggestions would you have for people
Speaker 1: about how they can advocate for themselves within the medical system.
Speaker 3: I know, And it's interesting because that question I'm always like, Ah,
Speaker 3: it's the system, as you alluded to, it's a system,
Speaker 3: like it shouldn't be on us to feel like we're
Speaker 3: going to war when we are seeking care, when we
Speaker 3: are at our most vulnerable, at our weakest in discomfort
Speaker 3: and pain. Right, But a few things. So, I don't
Speaker 3: know if you saw this recently, there was a viral,
Speaker 3: but I think it on social media of a white
Speaker 3: male physician who said he's like, I want to know
Speaker 3: why when I go into the room to see black patients,
Speaker 3: they usually have someone on FaceTime.
Speaker 2: Hello.
Speaker 3: It's because they don't trust you and they need someone
Speaker 3: else there, like for surveillance. So I say, bring someone
Speaker 3: with you to your appointments, a loved one, a family member,
Speaker 3: your best friend, someone who can help support you, whether
Speaker 3: it be just to ensure that you are getting respectful,
Speaker 3: dignified care, or someone who can make sure that you're
Speaker 3: asking all the questions that you need to ask. I
Speaker 3: also think it's important for people to go into the
Speaker 3: healthcare settings prepared, So take notes on what your symptoms
Speaker 3: have been like, the duration of your symptoms, the quality
Speaker 3: of your symptoms, what has worked, what hasn't worked. Make
Speaker 3: sure to have notes because a lot of times when
Speaker 3: we get in front of a health professional, we get nervous,
Speaker 3: anxious also for not feeling well. We may not be
Speaker 3: able to share all the details. Making sure that you
Speaker 3: ask a health professional, what do you think is going on?
Speaker 3: What is your plan for me? What is my follow up?
Speaker 3: What are red flags I should look out for it
Speaker 3: where I would come back or go to the emergency
Speaker 3: department making sure that you have answers to those questions.
Speaker 3: And then I think that I always say, and this
Speaker 3: is more difficult obviously in emergency medicine settings, but if
Speaker 3: you feel like your health professional is not listening to you,
Speaker 3: minimizing your complaints, get a second opinion, get a third opinion.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: The other thing is I think that we have our
Speaker 3: informal circles, our friends. I do it even as a physician.
Speaker 3: I asked my girls my village, who do you see
Speaker 3: for this? Who's your dermatologist, who's your obgyn?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: Because these are people that we already know, have been
Speaker 3: vetted and we know will give us good care. But
Speaker 3: like I mentioned, there are provider directories out there. National
Speaker 3: Medical Association has them. Health in her Hue has one
Speaker 3: specifically for black women and women of color. We are
Speaker 3: creating the solutions right to make sure that we are
Speaker 3: receiving respectful and equitable care.
Speaker 1: And are there specific questions that we can ask providers
Speaker 1: that can help us to vit whether they are culturally
Speaker 1: competent or culturally responsive.
Speaker 3: I think that is more challenging. But I think maybe
Speaker 3: when you go see someone, you can ask them what
Speaker 3: is your patient population, like even looking but like where
Speaker 3: did they train, where do they go to medical school?
Speaker 3: What kind of settings have they been practicing in, a
Speaker 3: lot of that you can actually find out online. I
Speaker 3: would look at even physician reviews, even though sometimes people
Speaker 3: may go in there and it may not be accurate
Speaker 3: in terms of what folks are saying, But definitely looking
Speaker 3: up physical reviews and seeing what people are saying about
Speaker 3: them because that can be very helpful as well.
Speaker 1: Nowc of Black PEC, I wonder what kind of message
Speaker 1: or charge would you give to either current medical students
Speaker 1: or future medical students about how they can continue to
Speaker 1: advance this work even if it is not being taught
Speaker 1: as a part of their formal curriculum.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's interesting because I actually gave a keynote talk
Speaker 3: the week before last the Student National Medical Association, which
Speaker 3: is the largest organization for black pre medical and medical students.
Speaker 3: One I wanted to remind them that it's a hard
Speaker 3: road to becoming a physician, especially in these predominantly white institutions,
Speaker 3: that they really have to be clear on what their purposes,
Speaker 3: what their values are, always stay in alignment, but also
Speaker 3: gather your village around you find the people, other students
Speaker 3: that you can trust, find the faculty that are open
Speaker 3: to mentoring and sponsoring you and to help support you
Speaker 3: if something comes up. I think organizing is something we
Speaker 3: don't talk about in medical school, but organizing, the more
Speaker 3: students that we have that are speaking up about these
Speaker 3: kind of issues, the more protected you are.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't try to sugarcoat it, because I
Speaker 3: know there's so much more work that medical schools need
Speaker 3: to do in creating diverse, inclusive environments for our students
Speaker 3: where they can show up authentically. And I also say,
Speaker 3: just keep your village, keep your family close to you,
Speaker 3: your loved ones, your blood and chosen family close to you,
Speaker 3: because they're the ones that are going to keep you
Speaker 3: grounded during your process where you're an environment that is
Speaker 3: very unfamiliar to you and sometimes unwelcoming to you. So
Speaker 3: stay grounded, remembering your purpose, seeking help when you need to,
Speaker 3: finding your village, whether it be other students or faculty.
Speaker 3: When I was faculty, I really felt like it was
Speaker 3: my purpose and obligation to support our students if something
Speaker 3: came up, to speak on behalf of them, to let
Speaker 3: their instructors know that something is going on to really
Speaker 3: have their back, and I know there are a lot
Speaker 3: of black faculty out there that are still doing that.
Speaker 1: Wonderful Well, thank you so much for that, doctor Blacksack.
Speaker 1: I wonder if you could share how we can stay
Speaker 1: connected to all the work that you're doing and where
Speaker 1: can we grab a copy of your book? Sure?
Speaker 3: So my organization is Advancing Health Equity. So that's actually
Speaker 3: what I left Academic medicine to focus on. It's five
Speaker 3: years old this month. It's a health equity consulting firm
Speaker 3: and we work with healthcare organizations around the issues we're
Speaker 3: talking about today to create diverse, inclusive environments where we
Speaker 3: can retain black health professionals and where we can deliver
Speaker 3: the most equitable care to our patients. So the website
Speaker 3: for Advancing Health Equity is ww dot Advancinghealthequity dot com.
Speaker 3: But if you want to follow me on social media
Speaker 3: because I talk about these issues all the time they
Speaker 3: mean so much to me. I'm on Instagram at UJA
Speaker 3: Blackstock MD, I'm on Twitter at uja Underscore Blackstock, and
Speaker 3: I'm on LinkedIn as well, and i also have my
Speaker 3: own website wwwja Blackstock dot com. If people are interested
Speaker 3: in book events and some media that I've appeared and legacy,
Speaker 3: my New York Times bestseller is available wherever books are sold,
Speaker 3: but I always recommend people to buy local, buy black owned,
Speaker 3: so find those stores close to you.
Speaker 1: We'll be sure to include all of that in the
Speaker 1: show notes. Thank you so much, Doctor Blacksock.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Doctor Joy.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad doctor Blackstock was able to join us
Speaker 1: for this episode. To learn more about her and her work,
Speaker 1: be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot com slash Session three fifty six, and don't
Speaker 1: forget to text two of your girls right now and
Speaker 1: tell them to check out the episode. If you're looking
Speaker 1: for a therapist in your area, check out our therapist
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. And
Speaker 1: if you want to continue digging into this topic or
Speaker 1: just be in community with other sisters, come on over
Speaker 1: and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy
Speaker 1: corner of the Internet designed just for black women. You
Speaker 1: can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Elie Ellis and Zaria Taylor.
Speaker 1: Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much
Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to
Speaker 1: continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,
Speaker 1: what