Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff
Speaker 1: I never told you are picture of iHeartRadio. And today
Speaker 1: we are once again thrilled to be joined by the fabulous,
Speaker 1: the fantastic Bridget Todd to welcome Bridget.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3: It's always such a joy when I get to start
Speaker 3: my week talking to you all.
Speaker 4: Yes, I feel like you have an extra glow. Maybe
Speaker 4: it's because you've been like soaking in all of the
Speaker 4: sun on the beautiful beaches abroad. I've been stalking you
Speaker 4: on Instagram and I'm like, how is this woman always traveling?
Speaker 4: And I miss and I'm sad that I'm not.
Speaker 2: I'm just kidding. Oh you all should have come.
Speaker 3: We actually so, I was in Mazatlan, Mexico for a
Speaker 3: clips to be in a hospitality. We actually it was
Speaker 3: one of those trips where we'd invited all of our friends.
Speaker 2: We're gonna get a big house on the beach.
Speaker 3: It's gonna be amazing, and then all of our friends
Speaker 3: are in and then one by one by one by one,
Speaker 3: I'm just there.
Speaker 2: Alone, essentially.
Speaker 4: No very enjoyed it.
Speaker 3: I enjoyed it. I love Mexico. It is one of
Speaker 3: my favorite places. It was my first time in Mazatlan.
Speaker 3: Ten out of ten completely recommend.
Speaker 5: Okay, did you see the eclipse and totality?
Speaker 2: I saw the eclipse of totality.
Speaker 3: It was my first time ever being in the path
Speaker 3: of totality of an eclipse.
Speaker 2: Have you have either of you ever experienced this?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 5: Yes? Once?
Speaker 2: What were your thoughts, Annie, I am dying to know.
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: If this was a different podcast, we would go into
Speaker 1: a whole separate thing because I had like a relationship
Speaker 1: issue that was happening on this day.
Speaker 5: And kind of a drama situation.
Speaker 1: So a lot of times when I look back at it,
Speaker 1: a lot of the pictures I took, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh wow, we were fighting. But it was also a
Speaker 1: work event that I was at, so there was that layer.
Speaker 1: But it was beautiful. It was so cool. I it
Speaker 1: sounds silly, but I love space, like I like love.
Speaker 1: The stars are like my favorite thing, So it was
Speaker 1: really really cool to see. It was not what I
Speaker 1: quite expected because the glasses. Samanth and I were joking
Speaker 1: about this recently, but the glasses feel so funny because
Speaker 1: you're like looking around like they're not working and then
Speaker 1: you like find the space you're supposed to look at.
Speaker 1: I was just like very very happy to see it, honestly,
Speaker 1: like all that drama I was working aside, I remember thinking,
Speaker 1: this is really cool that I get to see this,
Speaker 1: and I'm really happy that I get to see this.
Speaker 2: Yes, that was what I remember too.
Speaker 3: I burst into tears, and the next day I woke
Speaker 3: up in the middle of the night in a panic
Speaker 3: because I was worried that I will forget what it
Speaker 3: looked like being in totality like that, Like that's how
Speaker 3: like I had never seen it, but he'd never see
Speaker 3: anything like it. Anybody who listens to their no girls
Speaker 3: on the internet is probably so sick of me talking
Speaker 3: about this eclipse, and I am fully making seeing this
Speaker 3: total eclipse like my personality. But it's kind But yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm already planning where I will go for the next one,
Speaker 3: So I guess I will see y'all in I think,
Speaker 3: what is it, Spain?
Speaker 2: So that's that's the one.
Speaker 3: The next the next one that you can see if
Speaker 3: you can go to Spain and see I think in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty six.
Speaker 2: Ok So, but then the one that you're referring.
Speaker 3: To, Sam is like, don't quote me on any of this,
Speaker 3: but that's supposed to be like the big one, the
Speaker 3: big one that we will probably be able.
Speaker 2: To see in our lifetimes.
Speaker 3: And I think it's in parts of the African continent.
Speaker 2: I want to say, Morocco. Don't quote me on that either.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I did say at one point, like you would be
Speaker 4: able to view it in the US. That's the next
Speaker 4: time you'll be able to. And I don't know it
Speaker 4: is like the actual like the totality, as you say,
Speaker 4: but like I don't know, because I know nothing about this.
Speaker 4: That's the only I.
Speaker 2: Know the date, in no kindness for this past eclipse.
Speaker 3: Earlier this month, we had done so much planning, including
Speaker 3: like looking at farmer's almanacs to see what the weather
Speaker 3: and cloud coverage is like this time of year. And
Speaker 3: that's how we settled on Mazetlan, Mexico, because it was
Speaker 3: the place that is closest to us on the East
Speaker 3: coast in the United States that was most likely to
Speaker 3: not have cloud coverage in April because you could see
Speaker 3: it from Vermont and upstate New York and Texas. But
Speaker 3: a lot of those places in April might be cloudy,
Speaker 3: and so I have friends who were in Vermont and
Speaker 3: Upstate New York who were like, Oh, We're just gonna
Speaker 3: see it from our house, and I'm like, oh, will you.
Speaker 3: Then on the morning of the eclipse in Mazetlan, Mexico,
Speaker 3: we'd been there for a week. Every single day it's
Speaker 3: like a beautiful, cloudless, blue sky day. So I wake
Speaker 3: up on April eighth, the day of the eclipse, and
Speaker 3: it's cloudy, the first day we've had in Mexico for
Speaker 3: the entire week we have been there. Luckily, during the
Speaker 3: eclipse time, the clouds did part, so we did get
Speaker 3: to see it, but there would have been a lot
Speaker 3: of feelings had we not been able to see it.
Speaker 5: It's a lot of pressure to put on a trip
Speaker 5: like that. Honestly, it's pressure to put on the eclipse.
Speaker 4: I mean, it exists.
Speaker 2: It's not their fault.
Speaker 3: So you can can contact like the manager of the
Speaker 3: Sky to be like, actually, we didn't get a good view, and.
Speaker 4: We were like, okay, for y'all who are Christians here,
Speaker 4: tell this got it. Truly, we get canceled.
Speaker 2: We were like.
Speaker 3: Getting a little superstitious, like the things that we were
Speaker 3: doing to try to like ensure good sky. It was
Speaker 3: getting a little a little out there.
Speaker 2: We'll just leave it at that.
Speaker 4: He brought a shaman in. I guess we're going in.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Bridgiet, I want to ask so many questions.
Speaker 2: About this later.
Speaker 5: Oh well, I'm very glad that you got to see it.
Speaker 5: It is.
Speaker 1: It is amazing, like truly and over on the other
Speaker 1: podcast I Do Savor, we did an episode on like
Speaker 1: weird companies making money off of the eclipse with their products,
Speaker 1: and I have heard from so many people about the
Speaker 1: foods they made for the eclipse, and it's brought me
Speaker 1: so much story. So oh oh yeah, like totalityea, like tea, oh,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, so many things like this. So I
Speaker 1: feel like we have a couple of we have some
Speaker 1: years to brainstorm things like this.
Speaker 4: Next giant celebration, but keep that.
Speaker 5: In the back of your head, you know.
Speaker 3: Oh, next time, definitely doing eclipse themed at food party
Speaker 3: or dinner party or something.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 5: Yes, there's a so many puns.
Speaker 1: I will I will hold myself back for now, but
Speaker 1: I have to say I am very very excited to
Speaker 1: talk about the topic he brought today, Bridget because it
Speaker 1: is a thing that I love of like the history
Speaker 1: of something I think a lot of people don't question
Speaker 1: the history of and it's fascinating and I didn't know
Speaker 1: about it. So can you tell us what we're discussing today?
Speaker 3: I feel the exact same way, And today we are
Speaker 3: talking about the Lenna image.
Speaker 2: Is this something that either of you had ever heard of?
Speaker 5: I do not know. I've not known.
Speaker 2: So even if.
Speaker 3: You're listening and you're like, what is the Lenna image,
Speaker 3: I've never heard of this image. I've never seen this image.
Speaker 3: Even if you don't know the story and you don't
Speaker 3: feel like you've ever seen this image before, you kind
Speaker 3: of do know this image, because, as Linda Kinsler puts
Speaker 3: it in a really meaty piece for wireds that I'll
Speaker 3: be referencing a few times in this conversation. She writes,
Speaker 3: whether or not you know her face, you've used the
Speaker 3: technology it helped create practically every photo you've ever taken,
Speaker 3: every website you've ever visited, every meme you've ever shared.
Speaker 3: Owes some small debt to Lenna, and it really is
Speaker 3: exactly as you were saying, Annie, one of those stories
Speaker 3: that is found fundational to the Internet and technology that
Speaker 3: you don't necessarily think of don't necessarily think of how
Speaker 3: it came to be, And especially I think it's one
Speaker 3: of those stories that says a lot about technology on
Speaker 3: you know, here on Sminty, we've had plenty of conversations
Speaker 3: about this. I've had many conversations about this on their
Speaker 3: No Girls on the Internet, about how things like massogyny
Speaker 3: are kind of can sort of be baked into the
Speaker 3: foundation of technology. And I think that is one of
Speaker 3: the reasons why tech is so often perpetuating misogyny, not
Speaker 3: because it's some sort of an unfortunate bug, but because
Speaker 3: this misogyny can be sort of foundational in some ways.
Speaker 3: And I think this image really is a good example
Speaker 3: of what I mean. And I think, especially as we're
Speaker 3: having conversations about the rise of things like new toify
Speaker 3: apps and AI generated adult content creators, we're seeing what
Speaker 3: is kind of becoming a marketplace that is men making
Speaker 3: money off of the bodies and or labor of women
Speaker 3: without their consent, certainly without their compensation. And I think
Speaker 3: this situation in the Lenna image, where the image of
Speaker 3: a woman went on to create this entire field of
Speaker 3: technology without her consent, can perhaps really tell us something
Speaker 3: about where we're headed in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, especially when you consider where it comes from,
Speaker 1: which I know we'll talk about. But also, yeah, these
Speaker 1: conversations we're having now about like actors perhaps not given
Speaker 1: their consent to being used in certain ways. Just and honestly,
Speaker 1: it ekes sense to all of us if you've posted
Speaker 1: an image online, right, not consenting to using an image,
Speaker 1: to an image getting used in a certain way. But
Speaker 1: so much about this history is fascinating because it feels
Speaker 1: so standardized, which is odd. Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 2: Totally?
Speaker 3: So for folks who don't know, the Lenna image is
Speaker 3: literally an image of this woman, Lenna Lenna Forsin. She
Speaker 3: is a woman from Sweden who in the seventies was
Speaker 3: a model. So this kind of sensual image of her
Speaker 3: wearing a tan hat with a purple feather flowing down
Speaker 3: her bare back, staring kind of seductively over one shoulder.
Speaker 3: That image of her was published in Playboy in nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy two. She was essentially a playmate. That image would
Speaker 3: go on to become what's called a standard test image.
Speaker 2: So big caveat here. I am not an engineer.
Speaker 3: If I say something that is you're like, if you're
Speaker 3: an engineer listening, and you're like, that's not totally correct.
Speaker 2: I am at an engineer.
Speaker 3: But here is a definition of what a standard test
Speaker 3: image is that I found from caggle dot com, which
Speaker 3: is like a developer community site. They say a standard
Speaker 3: test image is a digital image file used across different
Speaker 3: institutions to test image processing and image compression algorithms. By
Speaker 3: using the same standard test images, different labs were able
Speaker 3: to compare results both visually and quantitatively. The images are
Speaker 3: in many cases chosen to represent natural or typical images
Speaker 3: that a class of processing techniques would need to deal with.
Speaker 3: Other test images are chosen because they present a range
Speaker 3: of challenges to image reconstrut dirduction algorithms, such as the
Speaker 3: reproduction of fine detail and textures, sharp transitions and edges.
Speaker 2: And uniform reasons.
Speaker 3: So basically, to put that in Layman's terms, a standard
Speaker 3: test image is like a test image that tests to
Speaker 3: make sure that the technology is working as it should be,
Speaker 3: or like rendering the way that it should be. Lenna's
Speaker 3: image is not the only common standard test image. There's
Speaker 3: also one that is like a bunch of different colored
Speaker 3: jelly beans on a table. There's another one that's called
Speaker 3: peppers that's just a bunch of different colored like red
Speaker 3: and green peppers, like calapeno peppers. So this is just
Speaker 3: a thing that becomes a way for technologists to test
Speaker 3: that the image generating technology is working correctly.
Speaker 1: I do think this is very interesting for a lot
Speaker 1: of reasons. But if you have like jelly beans and peppers,
Speaker 1: those are things to be consumed. Then when you're thinking
Speaker 1: about where they got this image from a Lena, like,
Speaker 1: how did this happen? How did this image become this
Speaker 1: standard testing thing?
Speaker 2: So this is actually a pretty interesting story.
Speaker 3: The story of Helena's Playboy picture becomes this standard test
Speaker 3: image that is everywhere and very ubiquitous, starts with computer
Speaker 3: and electrical engineer Alexander Sawchuk. According to the newsletter for
Speaker 3: the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineering, or the I
Speaker 3: triple E, as I have found out it's sometimes called.
Speaker 2: I was talking to somebody about this and I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: the I E E ee, and they were like, it's
Speaker 2: just the I triple E.
Speaker 5: I want to I E E.
Speaker 4: Actually the I E exactly.
Speaker 2: So it's the summer of nineteen seventy three.
Speaker 3: Alexander Sawchuk was an assistant professor of electrical engineering at
Speaker 3: the University of Southern California and also a grad student
Speaker 3: in the sip I lab as a manager. As the
Speaker 3: story goes, he's like frantically searching around the lab for
Speaker 3: a good image to scan for a colleague's conference paper.
Speaker 3: He had just sort of gotten bored with their usual
Speaker 3: stock test images because they most had come from like
Speaker 3: nineteen sixties TV standards and then we're just a little
Speaker 3: bit dull. He wanted something glossy and sort of like
Speaker 3: fresh and dynamic, but he also wanted to use a
Speaker 3: human face specifically.
Speaker 2: Just then, as the story goes.
Speaker 3: Somebody happens to walk in holding the most recent issue
Speaker 3: of Playboy magazine.
Speaker 2: Why this person was bringing Playboy magazine into his workplace,
Speaker 2: I cannot tell you.
Speaker 4: How good did you just come into your world institute?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 5: Cool?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, I mean, I do think that that sort
Speaker 3: of like gives you a sense of like the dynamics
Speaker 3: that we're dealing with. Right, that somebody just happens to
Speaker 3: walk in with the with the most recent Playboy under
Speaker 3: their arm, right, the engineers tore away the top third
Speaker 3: of the centerfold so they could wrap it around the
Speaker 3: drum of their mrhead wire photo scanner, which they had
Speaker 3: outfitted with analog to digital converters, one for each red, green,
Speaker 3: and blue channels, and an HP twenty one hundred mini computer.
Speaker 3: So all of that to say is that they effectively
Speaker 3: crop to this image so that you can't see the
Speaker 3: models bears in the image, so it's just a picture
Speaker 3: of her from the shoulders up looking over her shoulder.
Speaker 3: It's still like quite a seductive photo, but the full
Speaker 3: photo has her like bare booty in it. She's wearing
Speaker 3: I look like a feather boa and like thigh high
Speaker 3: stockings looking over her shoulder. So back in the seventies
Speaker 3: and eighties, this image was really sort of like used
Speaker 3: in very limited cases. You could only really see it
Speaker 3: on dot org domains. It was pretty limited to like engineers.
Speaker 3: Then in July of nineteen ninety one, the image was
Speaker 3: featured on the cover of Optical Engineering, alongside that other
Speaker 3: test image of the different colored peppers. Funny enough, I
Speaker 3: took a look at that cover. It's all black and white,
Speaker 3: so I'm like, oh, I think they're trying to demonstrate
Speaker 3: that like these images had all these different dynamic colors,
Speaker 3: but both of them are rendered in black and white,
Speaker 3: kind of rendering that meaningless. So this is when Playboy
Speaker 3: gets wind of this, and they are not happy because
Speaker 3: it's basically copyright infringement, which this is not related to
Speaker 3: the story, but I always have to add this whenever
Speaker 3: it comes up how litigious Hugh Hefner and Playboy were.
Speaker 3: I always think this is very rich because, as y'll
Speaker 3: probably know, Hugh Hefner made an entire lucrative industry off
Speaker 3: of images of Marilyn Monroe that she did for a
Speaker 3: calendar company for which she was only paid fifty dollars.
Speaker 3: Many years after that photo shoot, Hugh Hefner bought those
Speaker 3: photographs from the calendar company republished them without Marilyn Monroe's
Speaker 3: consent or permission in nineteen fifty three. That was the
Speaker 3: first ever issue of Playboy. Hugh Hefner paid five hundred dollars.
Speaker 3: She got fifty dollars. Right, So, whenever I read about
Speaker 3: how litigious Playboy is, which they're very litigious, I always
Speaker 3: had to chuckle at that that, Oh, like, you don't
Speaker 3: want somebody profiting off of your intellectual property. But had
Speaker 3: no problem profiting off of a woman's body without compensating
Speaker 3: her fairly or even her consent.
Speaker 2: Interesting, this is like par for the course for him.
Speaker 2: Oh my Goodnes, don't even get me started with Shu Hefner.
Speaker 2: We will be here all day.
Speaker 4: The things that came out after he died, which I'm like, Wow,
Speaker 4: he had a pretty good, like powerful handle on people
Speaker 4: not talking until he died.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3: I was listening to an episode of Celebrity memoir book
Speaker 3: Club where they read a lot of X playmate and
Speaker 3: ex Playboy bunny memoirs.
Speaker 2: Some of the things that they write about, I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh my god.
Speaker 3: Like even even Lenna in an interview, she talks about
Speaker 3: how in the seventies, after this photo shoot, she was
Speaker 3: invited to go to the Playboy mansion, and the quote
Speaker 3: is something like, they made it clear in the invites
Speaker 3: that I would have to spend time with Hugh Hefner
Speaker 3: while he was in his dressing robe, and I said no, thanks.
Speaker 5: I mean she already knew.
Speaker 6: Was like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: So Playboy threatens to sue these engineers, and at this point,
Speaker 3: the engineers, it sounds like, had like grown very fond
Speaker 3: of using this image so they fought back. Eventually, Playboy
Speaker 3: back down because, as a Playboy vice president put it, quote,
Speaker 3: we decided we should exploit this because it is a phenomenon.
Speaker 3: So yeah, by his own words like, oh, let's exploit this.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, talk about the fact that this is.
Speaker 3: Two groups of men fighting over who owns this image
Speaker 3: of a woman, in one case being used in a
Speaker 3: manner that is completely without her consent or control. It
Speaker 3: just it already from the beginning, it just feels to
Speaker 3: me like men fighting over how they can use a
Speaker 3: woman's representation that I think is so foundational to some
Speaker 3: of the conversations we're having about technology like AI right
Speaker 3: here in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: Four, absolutely, and she did become pretty foundational, right.
Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely, So this is when the image of Lena
Speaker 3: really becomes super popular. The whole drama about the cover
Speaker 3: catapults this image into what you might think of as
Speaker 3: like early internet virality or popularity.
Speaker 2: This was in nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 3: The use of the photo and electronic imaging has been
Speaker 3: described as clearly one of the most important events in history.
Speaker 3: It is truly hard to overstate how ubiquitous this one
Speaker 3: image is in technology. There is this fascinating interactive piece
Speaker 3: by Jennifer Ding at the Pudding.
Speaker 2: The piece is so cool.
Speaker 3: It's like one of those interactive pieces that has a timeline.
Speaker 2: Definitely check it out. But in that piece, Ding.
Speaker 3: Actually includes a freeze frame of the show Silicon Valley
Speaker 3: on HBO where in the background there is a poster
Speaker 3: with the Lenna image on the wall right. So this
Speaker 3: image is also included in scientific journals just all over
Speaker 3: the place.
Speaker 2: Ding found that within the dot edu.
Speaker 3: World, so like websites related to education, the Lenna image
Speaker 3: continues to appear in homework questions, class slides, and to
Speaker 3: be hosted on educational and research sites, ensuring that it
Speaker 3: will be passed down to new generations of engineer. So
Speaker 3: this became so popular that Lenna herself is often called
Speaker 3: the first Lady of the Internet.
Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, I kuld of like her taking that picture
Speaker 1: having no idea that this is what would happen, Which, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that speaks to the next.
Speaker 5: Question, why did this image take off the way that
Speaker 5: it did?
Speaker 2: Well? If you asked David C.
Speaker 3: Munson, who is the editor in chief of the I
Speaker 3: E or the Tripoli Transactions on Image processing, he said
Speaker 3: that the image happened to meet all of these requirements
Speaker 3: for a good test image because of its detail, it's
Speaker 3: flat regions, shading, and texture. But even he will not
Speaker 3: leave out the obvious fact that it's also a picture
Speaker 3: of like a seductive, sexy young woman. Duh, right, Like
Speaker 3: that's that's definitely part of it. He says, the Lena
Speaker 3: image picture is of an attractive woman. It is not
Speaker 3: surprising to me that the mostly male image processing research
Speaker 3: community gravitated toward an image that they found attractive. And
Speaker 3: so I do think there's something about these highly male
Speaker 3: dominated spaces where it's not just that there's a lot
Speaker 3: of men, it's like their worldviews, their interests, their perspectives,
Speaker 3: their biases that are really taking up a lot.
Speaker 2: Of space in these in these spaces.
Speaker 3: I just think that men feel like these spaces are theirs,
Speaker 3: and that they are free to decorate those spaces with
Speaker 3: the pretty women that they think they feel like they
Speaker 3: should be able to use without their consent or compensation.
Speaker 3: I just think that, like Annie, you mentioned earlier, that
Speaker 3: the other test images are these things that you consume, right,
Speaker 3: like peppers or jelly beans.
Speaker 2: There's another famous one of.
Speaker 3: A baboon that's like has different colors on its face.
Speaker 2: It's interesting to me that it's these.
Speaker 3: Things that are not human, things that are like animal
Speaker 3: or or that you consume that like throwing a sexy
Speaker 3: young woman into that mix. I don't think maybe seem
Speaker 3: like a huge departure for these guys.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, when you think about things in the
Speaker 1: realm of AI or even I know I've complained about
Speaker 1: this many times, but in the worlds of fandom are gaming,
Speaker 1: it's like that, it's like, you can come into our
Speaker 1: world on our terms and you wear what we want
Speaker 1: you to wear. You are here because we let you
Speaker 1: be here in this male dominated space, but you're gonna
Speaker 1: do what we want. It's not up to you. And
Speaker 1: that's the only way that you can you can be
Speaker 1: in this world. But that being said, there has been
Speaker 1: some pushback recently, ish right, Bridget.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So one thing about what you just said.
Speaker 3: When I was researching for this episode, some of the
Speaker 3: different engineers who had contributed to this image's popularity, they
Speaker 3: were quoted when they actually met the actual real Letta
Speaker 3: at a conference that she was invited to. They were like,
Speaker 3: I can't believe she's a real person. A part of
Speaker 3: me was like, you didn't even see her as a
Speaker 3: real human. They just saw her as something that they
Speaker 3: had got an image in a picture that they had
Speaker 3: been consuming for decades, and they had so removed her
Speaker 3: from being a real, breathing human that meeting her in
Speaker 3: real life was like they were surprised that she was real.
Speaker 3: And I think that really speaks to the sort of
Speaker 3: fandom element that you were talking about, this idea that
Speaker 3: like you can come if you are a fantasy and
Speaker 3: in some ways not even a real human.
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: You're like, do I ever, Yeah, Like, don't say anything
Speaker 1: that I don't like, like, keep quiet and look.
Speaker 5: The way I like, then you can be here. But
Speaker 5: oh you're a real person.
Speaker 2: Oh no, I don't.
Speaker 5: Want you hear it at all.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So you're exactly right, Annie. All of this happened,
Speaker 3: but it was not without pushback. Around like the twenty tens,
Speaker 3: people started publicly asking whether or not this image of
Speaker 3: a woman from Playboy should be so foundational to technology,
Speaker 3: especially in education seating, you know, given conversations about the
Speaker 3: need for more women in these spaces and how to
Speaker 3: make these spaces more inclusive and more diverse.
Speaker 2: That's really around when you start.
Speaker 3: Hearing like people in public being like, wait a minute,
Speaker 3: maybe this isn't so cool. In twenty fifteen, Mattie Zugg,
Speaker 3: who was then a student at the Thomas Jefferson High
Speaker 3: School for Science and Technology right here in DC riilive
Speaker 3: who I should say now is a product safety engineer
Speaker 3: at Apple who focuses on preventing tech and abled abuse
Speaker 3: and stalking and harassment on Apple platforms.
Speaker 2: So like go Maddie.
Speaker 3: Maddie sounds like she was cool in high school and
Speaker 3: is cool now. So Maddie wrote this op ed basically
Speaker 3: asking the question of like, should I, as.
Speaker 2: A high school student at at a STEM.
Speaker 3: High school, be given an image from Playboy as part
Speaker 3: of my education in technology and STEM? She writes, I
Speaker 3: first saw a picture of Playboy magazines Miss November nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy two. A year ago as a junior at TJ
Speaker 3: my artificial intelligence teacher told our class to search Google
Speaker 3: for Lenna Soderbird, not the full image though, and use
Speaker 3: her pick to test our latest coding assignment. At the time,
Speaker 3: I was sixteen and struggling to believe that I belonged
Speaker 3: in a male dominated computer science class. I tried to
Speaker 3: tune out the boy's sexual comments. Why is an advanced science, technology, engineering,
Speaker 3: and mathematics school using a Playboy centerfold in its classrooms?
Speaker 3: Her piece ends was saying it's time for TJ to
Speaker 3: say hello to inclusive computer science education and say goodbye
Speaker 3: to Lena. So Maddie was not the only person who
Speaker 3: was like, maybe this image shouldn't be the thing that
Speaker 3: all of our education is centered around. In that piece
Speaker 3: for Wired, I mentioned they talked to several women in technology.
Speaker 3: You had very similar stories. This one is actually pretty funny.
Speaker 3: Deanna and Needle, a math professor at UCLA, had similar
Speaker 3: memories from college. So in twenty thirteen, she and a
Speaker 3: colleague staged a quiet protest. They acquired the rights to
Speaker 3: a headshot of the male model Fabio Lonzoni and used
Speaker 3: that for their imaging research. So they kind of like
Speaker 3: turned it around, like, oh, you're gonna use a sexy woman,
Speaker 3: Well we'll use a sexy man.
Speaker 2: What do you think about that?
Speaker 5: I love it.
Speaker 3: So in that piece they actually track down and speak
Speaker 3: to the real Lenna, who also called for her image
Speaker 3: to be retired. She says, I retired from modeling a
Speaker 3: long time ago. It is time I retired from tech two.
Speaker 3: We can make a simple change today that creates a
Speaker 3: lasting change for tomorrow. Let's commit to losing me. And
Speaker 3: there's actually some news on that front, because as of
Speaker 3: April first of this year, that I Triple E officially
Speaker 3: retired the use of the Lenna image and announced they
Speaker 3: will no longer be using that image and their publications.
Speaker 3: Ours Technica points out that this is kind of a
Speaker 3: really big deal that will likely have a ripple effect
Speaker 3: in the space. Because the journal has been so historically
Speaker 3: important for computer imaging development, it'll likely set a precedent
Speaker 3: removing this image from common use. In an email, a
Speaker 3: spokesperson for the I Triple E recommended wider sensitivity about
Speaker 3: the issue, writing, in order to raise awareness of and
Speaker 3: increase author compliance with this new policy, program, committee members
Speaker 3: and reviewers should look for inclusion of this image, and
Speaker 3: if present, should ask authors to replace the Lenna image
Speaker 3: with an alternative.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that from Lenna herself, Like, let's commit
Speaker 1: to forgetting me. That's such a great line, but it
Speaker 1: does speak to it speaks volumes, as you've been saying,
Speaker 1: bridget to our attitude towards women on the internet and
Speaker 1: towards consent on the internet. And so when we're thinking
Speaker 1: about this, which was foundational, what do you think about
Speaker 1: this the legacy of this image.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that question. You know what I was
Speaker 3: reading about how this image came to be? I'm imagining
Speaker 3: a very different time, right, It's the seventies. People aren't
Speaker 3: necessarily having a lot of public loud conversations about the
Speaker 3: power dynamics of who's in the room and who's not
Speaker 3: in the room where a lot of this technology is
Speaker 3: getting built. And it really made me think of like, wow,
Speaker 3: the seventies, that probably was such a different time. But
Speaker 3: here in twenty twenty four, we are having those conversations,
Speaker 3: loud voices, are publicly having those conversations. There are women
Speaker 3: and people of color, and trans folks and queer folks
Speaker 3: and all kinds of folks who are building and making
Speaker 3: the technology that shapes our world today. And so in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four, it almost feels like we are pretending
Speaker 3: that we're still in this nineteen seventies we didn't really
Speaker 3: know how who could have foreseen world? When in fact
Speaker 3: we're not really in that world. People are asking the
Speaker 3: questions people are raising the alarm, and I guess I
Speaker 3: don't think it should be several decades after AI technology
Speaker 3: becomes ubiquitous for people to start asking the question about
Speaker 3: how traditionally marginalized people like women are being used and
Speaker 3: represented and perhaps exploited without their consent in these spaces.
Speaker 3: I think it provides a really interesting precedent for what's
Speaker 3: going on here in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: And Jennifer Ding put it really well.
Speaker 3: She writes to me, the crux of the Lena story
Speaker 3: is how little power we have over our data and
Speaker 3: how it is used and abused. That threat seems disproportionately
Speaker 3: higher for women, who are overrepresented in Internet content but
Speaker 3: underrepresented in Internet company leadership and decision making. Given this reality,
Speaker 3: engineering and product decisions will continue to consciously and unconsciously
Speaker 3: exclude our needs and concerns, right, And so I really
Speaker 3: agree with that that this Leta story really is a
Speaker 3: story about power dynamics and who is represented in technology
Speaker 3: and who is just sort of like has their needs
Speaker 3: exploited or erased.
Speaker 2: Right Like.
Speaker 3: Men wanting to consume the bodies of women is like
Speaker 3: foundational to the Internet. It's like why we have the
Speaker 3: Internet the way that we have it, and I think
Speaker 3: we know that now it's like an objective fact about
Speaker 3: the Internet and technology. I don't think we can still
Speaker 3: make technology that does not honest about that, because if
Speaker 3: we're not being honest about that, we can never fix that,
Speaker 3: we can never question that, we can never have that
Speaker 3: be a dynamic that we stop perpetuating with technology.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's like going back to the
Speaker 1: point about being in a classroom setting and being shown
Speaker 1: explicitly like this is how women are viewed in space.
Speaker 1: This is what built a lot of what we use today,
Speaker 1: and we're still talking about it is telling in itself,
Speaker 1: and especially when we're seeing that perpetuate in all of
Speaker 1: these tech spaces where it still feels in a lot
Speaker 1: of ways even though women in marginalized people have built
Speaker 1: those spaces that like you're the guest here and you're
Speaker 1: only here because we're opening our gates a little bit
Speaker 1: to let you in, but otherwise, yes, get out.
Speaker 3: And I just think that's a dynamic we need to
Speaker 3: be questioning in twenty twenty four. And I think so
Speaker 3: like something about the use of this image it's ubiquity
Speaker 3: in education spaces I find so telling. But also, even
Speaker 3: if you're not studying to be an engineer or something,
Speaker 3: I think there is a dynamic that says that if
Speaker 3: you are a person who is traditionally marginalized, you're not
Speaker 3: a decision maker, you're not a power holder, you're not
Speaker 3: doing or making anything that anybody needs to care about.
Speaker 3: And the entire dynamic is that we use you. In fact,
Speaker 3: so Ding actually points this out on her piece. She says,
Speaker 3: while social norms are changing toward non consensual data collection
Speaker 3: and data exploitation, digital norms seem to be moving in
Speaker 3: the opposite direction. Advancement and machine learning algorithms and data
Speaker 3: storage capabilities are only making data misuse easier, whether the
Speaker 3: outcome is revenge porn, or targeted ADS, surveillance, or discriminatory AI.
Speaker 3: If we want a world where our data can retire
Speaker 3: when it's outlived its time, or when it's directly harming
Speaker 3: our lives, we must create the tools and policies that
Speaker 3: empower data subjects to have a say in what happens
Speaker 3: to their data, including allowing their data to die. And
Speaker 3: so I think, even if you're not somebody who is
Speaker 3: a techie, that does concern you this dynamic that just says,
Speaker 3: we consume, we exploit, we make money from you, and
Speaker 3: you don't get to have a say about it. That's
Speaker 3: the dynamics that I think this Lena image really did
Speaker 3: usher in without really even necessarily meaning to.
Speaker 4: I think there's a big conversation here on like the
Speaker 4: power of capitalism within the tech industry and what makes money.
Speaker 4: I can't help but think, like with the Lina image,
Speaker 4: the fact that this toxicity was used to make more
Speaker 4: profit and more power within this industry. It took forty
Speaker 4: to fifty years for it to even have a conversation about,
Speaker 4: like let's change it, let's retire it. But the fact
Speaker 4: that it had that much pushback because they didn't care
Speaker 4: enough and they wanted to build on this toxicity because
Speaker 4: they knew it could make money is the most concerning
Speaker 4: thing to me. And then the powers that be are
Speaker 4: saying that, yeah, yeah, we're definitely going to control this
Speaker 4: and then just goes after an app instead of the
Speaker 4: root of the problem. It seems like the biggest part
Speaker 4: of the conversation because even in the AI world, with
Speaker 4: new apps coming through, new programs coming through, and they're
Speaker 4: all competing with each other, they don't want to let
Speaker 4: go of the toxicity. But that's what's making the money,
Speaker 4: which is really really concerning.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean, like if there was one, so
Speaker 3: what of why I wanted to have this conversation Sam.
Speaker 3: That is exactly it that it is about money. It
Speaker 3: is about capitalism. It is about making money off of
Speaker 3: people's own exploitation and selling that exploitation back to them to.
Speaker 2: Make more money.
Speaker 3: And it's just a really toxic dynamic that I believe
Speaker 3: is harming us and making the people who have created
Speaker 3: that dynamic rich all the while they get to be like, Oh,
Speaker 3: it's not a big deal for you.
Speaker 2: Actually, this is going to be really good for you.
Speaker 2: This is going to be convenient for you.
Speaker 3: And I don't know, Like I woke up this morning
Speaker 3: when I was trying to decide like what I wanted
Speaker 3: to talk to you all today about, and one of
Speaker 3: the ideas that I had that I scrapped was just
Speaker 3: this feeling that being on the internet just doesn't feel
Speaker 3: fun anymore. Anytime I go on a website, anytime I
Speaker 3: google something just to find out information, it feels like
Speaker 3: a scam.
Speaker 2: It feels like exploitation.
Speaker 3: I feel like I am one click away from somebody
Speaker 3: getting my social Security number. It feels like AI generated garbage,
Speaker 3: and I just think we have hit the wall of
Speaker 3: that feeling.
Speaker 2: I can't imagine that I'm alone in this.
Speaker 3: I think the feeling of being showing up online today
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty four feels exhausting, and I think part
Speaker 3: of it is because it feels like we are being
Speaker 3: bled dry by people that we have already made rich
Speaker 3: from our own exploitation.
Speaker 2: Do you want to feel that way? Oh?
Speaker 4: Absolutely, I think with because getting on TikTok, the first
Speaker 4: opening video I'm sure you've seen it is that content
Speaker 4: manager who's like, I'm here for the safety of TikTok.
Speaker 4: Have you seen this?
Speaker 2: I have not.
Speaker 4: She's been there. She is for safety in something like
Speaker 4: she has a very specific safety yes, Susie someone she
Speaker 4: is very white and she's very redheaded. It's I was like, okay,
Speaker 4: so we've got played into the xenophobe. She's like, look,
Speaker 4: I'm a white person. I'm gonna help you out here.
Speaker 2: Don't worry. Don't worry.
Speaker 6: I got this.
Speaker 4: But that's the first thing that I'm seeing, So, like,
Speaker 4: you know, urging TikTok users to talk to the government
Speaker 4: because they voted this in and this is real bad
Speaker 4: and all this and not whatnot. And I'm just like,
Speaker 4: all right, it's gonna go away next. This is now
Speaker 4: my attitude because also I'm very tired. But also I
Speaker 4: just got an email saying that AT and d YES
Speaker 4: has a record that oh that that reached. They have
Speaker 4: your stuff. But good news. Since you don't have a
Speaker 4: bill with us, we don't, we didn't. You didn't even
Speaker 4: get any perfecent information. But I literally think every month
Speaker 4: I have been given seeing an email that says something
Speaker 4: of my information is has been breached, and it's nothing
Speaker 4: that I have done. It is literally everything from my insurance,
Speaker 4: my dental insurance, my healthcare provider, my internet, which I'm like,
Speaker 4: what the hell, my phone subscription, my cell phone, which
Speaker 4: I'm like, I'm starting to get back to that. I
Speaker 4: think I want a landline. I'm gonna at this moment, y'all,
Speaker 4: to each of those things popping up on things. I'm like,
Speaker 4: I hadn't I have to use that information in order
Speaker 4: for me to have healthcare. So y'all, let my healthcare
Speaker 4: information go out and they have my Social Security number.
Speaker 4: There's nothing I can do about that as many times
Speaker 4: as I can change my password. The next email I'm
Speaker 4: getting is telling me that I've got a data breach
Speaker 4: of my information. So what is the point. Like, at
Speaker 4: this point, the only way is to rewrite my identity
Speaker 4: and to never get online again, which would be really
Speaker 4: hard for my job.
Speaker 3: Yes, Like if you have a phone in your life,
Speaker 3: if you vote, if you drive, these things that we
Speaker 3: are required to do to participate in public life should
Speaker 3: not just be avenues for somebody to make money and
Speaker 3: scam us.
Speaker 2: But yet it feels that way.
Speaker 3: And you know what, Sam, I have actually not seen
Speaker 3: the TikTok that you're to because I have not opened
Speaker 3: my TikTok app in days. Because it's starting to feel
Speaker 3: like QVC and I cannot take it anymore. Like whatever
Speaker 3: happened to spaces on the Internet that we're supposed to
Speaker 3: feel like safety or exploration or fun or community or connection.
Speaker 3: I'm I hope that somebody out there listening is like,
Speaker 3: bridget you're old and on hip.
Speaker 2: We have those spaces, they are syz tell me about them.
Speaker 2: I want to know about them.
Speaker 3: But I think that we should we really got to
Speaker 3: get back to like to those principles of the Internet,
Speaker 3: feeling like something other than being taken for a ride
Speaker 3: on which you are the chump, right.
Speaker 4: And I will say a lot of people have felt
Speaker 4: like Discord and read it has been like brought in,
Speaker 4: but we already know Reddit has god of its problems.
Speaker 4: And then I think there's a new lawsuit with Discord
Speaker 4: with his problems and in terms of service changing as well.
Speaker 4: I'm like, what, totally it's happened. So there's literally no
Speaker 4: one is protecting the individual to like, there's no protection
Speaker 4: for us at all, but they want us to say,
Speaker 4: they want us to take away things from us, which
Speaker 4: is like the least of our worries, or they're just
Speaker 4: like sorry, You're like, you can't sue us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think everybody is feeling that, but I think
Speaker 3: it is particularly dangerous for people who are traditionally marginalized
Speaker 3: because yeah, which it's just the expectation that, oh, it's
Speaker 3: totally fine. If people who make apps that non consensually
Speaker 3: undress women using AI, why wouldn't they be able to
Speaker 3: advertise on Facebook or Instagram or Twitter.
Speaker 2: They got to make money, that's a business.
Speaker 3: Like how easy it is to erase the human people
Speaker 3: at the heart of this dynamic. Erase their concerns, erase
Speaker 3: their needs, erase their harm because men got to make
Speaker 3: money off of it.
Speaker 4: I'm thick of it, right, Or is tradition literally like, yeah,
Speaker 4: this image has always been here, we need to teach
Speaker 4: it as a historical now. It was definitely not exploiting
Speaker 4: somebody or taking advantage of somebody or using humiliating content,
Speaker 4: because she wasn't humulated, I don't think. But like in
Speaker 4: the ideal of like it being forever and ever and ever,
Speaker 4: of like your seductive picture being used for it people,
Speaker 4: which is a whole different conversation in itself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so Lenna, the real life Lenna.
Speaker 3: And again there's a really interesting Wired article that has
Speaker 3: an interview with her.
Speaker 2: She doesn't feel like she was exploited.
Speaker 3: She's actually really proud of that image, even as she
Speaker 3: recognizes that it's like time for it to be retired. However,
Speaker 3: she does wish that she had been fairly compensated for
Speaker 3: what would go on to be her like non consensual
Speaker 3: contributions to tech when she took that image. There's no
Speaker 3: way that as a you know, young playboy playmate in
Speaker 3: the night in nineteen seventy one or whatever, you would
Speaker 3: have a sense of like, well, if this goes on
Speaker 3: to be to make me the first lady of the Internet,
Speaker 3: I better have compensation and protections, no way, right. So
Speaker 3: in that wired piece they say it makes sense that
Speaker 3: she would feel this way. Unlike so many women in tech,
Speaker 3: Lenna has at least been acknowledged, even fedan for her contribution.
Speaker 3: She did that work, and the people started using that
Speaker 3: photo in this neat new way, and now she has
Speaker 3: this kind of immortality woven into the design of the machine.
Speaker 3: This is from Marie Hicks, a historian of technology and
Speaker 3: the author of programmed Inequality.
Speaker 2: All of this happened for a reason.
Speaker 3: Hicks writes, if they hadn't used a Playboy centerfold, they
Speaker 3: almost certainly would have used another picture of a pretty
Speaker 3: white woman. The playboy thing gets our attention, but really
Speaker 3: what it's about is this world building that's gone on
Speaker 3: in computing from the beginning. It's about building worlds for
Speaker 3: certain people and not for others.
Speaker 4: I find it interesting too that they invited her to
Speaker 4: the conference, Like I'm wondering what the purpose was other
Speaker 4: than two like for because it obviously wasn't to ask
Speaker 4: her questions about tech and how she did this thing
Speaker 4: because they did not even consider human as we know.
Speaker 4: It was just literally to oggle her in real life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking about why they did that.
Speaker 3: I don't know, I have parted me wonders if it
Speaker 3: was like an attempt to be like, oh, we need
Speaker 3: to acknowledge the way that this woman's image was so
Speaker 3: foundational to our technology, but then like not really doing it,
Speaker 3: like still sort of treating her as like a booth
Speaker 3: babe or something like.
Speaker 4: I don't know, right, I just find all of that
Speaker 4: interesting in this level of like not again of not
Speaker 4: what she was doing this for. She came in with
Speaker 4: like whatever her ambitions were in being this model and whatnot,
Speaker 4: and then all of a sudden being told you're being
Speaker 4: used as an example for computers, like for specially images
Speaker 4: for computers, and not only will you see this, but
Speaker 4: your grandkids will also like if she has children, like
Speaker 4: any of those things, and your your family members.
Speaker 3: Forever and like who would who would have ever thought
Speaker 3: that that's how that image would go on to be
Speaker 3: used in history? And I really think like this is
Speaker 3: where we are today, and this is like why I
Speaker 3: wanted to talk about this is that I think, like
Speaker 3: the idea, the concept of images being shared online, the
Speaker 3: way we understand that in twenty twenty four, the fact
Speaker 3: that this image of Letta became so foundational to that
Speaker 3: concept without her consent, you know, perhaps without like proper
Speaker 3: contribution to the way that she actually was foundational to that,
Speaker 3: and building out this entire universe around it that is
Speaker 3: mostly like controlled and protected and profited off by men,
Speaker 3: and nobody stopping to ask about the ramifications of that
Speaker 3: until decades later. I just think it really establishes like
Speaker 3: a concerning precedent for where we're going right now with
Speaker 3: AI in twenty twenty four, And it doesn't have to
Speaker 3: We can learn from what we did with that Letta
Speaker 3: image if we ask the right questions, if we cent
Speaker 3: her the right perspectives and the right voices, and so Yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't want to wait until twenty forty to be like, oh,
Speaker 3: should we have been talking about the ways that women
Speaker 3: and girls and other marginalized people are being exploited and
Speaker 3: used to make technology companies money.
Speaker 2: I don't want to ask that question when it's too late.
Speaker 4: Right, And here's like the big conversation is shouldn't we
Speaker 4: also recognize that big companies, big tech companies and big
Speaker 4: companies that are developing are purposely leaving out marginalized people
Speaker 4: because they like the old ways and in that it's
Speaker 4: only making a certain amount of people money.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's exactly I think that I would argue that's
Speaker 3: exactly what's going on.
Speaker 2: I mean, in twenty twenty four, there are so many.
Speaker 3: Loud, thoughtful voices from women and people of color who
Speaker 3: are really talking about AI in some interesting and thoughtful ways.
Speaker 3: So they exist, They are out there. This is the
Speaker 3: tale as the oldest time when it comes to technology.
Speaker 3: It is not that they are not there. It is
Speaker 3: that they are being, whether intentionally or unintentionally, marginalized, sideline silenced,
Speaker 3: pushed aside to make room for voices who are just
Speaker 3: repeating the status quo, who are just saying like, well,
Speaker 3: I'm trying to get rich, so who cares how this harms?
Speaker 3: Somebody who cares about whether or not this goes on
Speaker 3: to exploit.
Speaker 2: And I think that's really it's really.
Speaker 3: Like a it's a little bit of a complicated cultural
Speaker 3: dynamic and cultural shift that I think that we really
Speaker 3: got a break.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, And it's really sad, going back to your point,
Speaker 1: Bridget of like the internet not being a place of
Speaker 1: joy anymore, because so many times it was marginalized people
Speaker 1: who made those spaces because they couldn't.
Speaker 5: Find them anywhere else.
Speaker 1: And then these companies come in and are like, Okay,
Speaker 1: well we can make money, and then it doesn't become
Speaker 1: a joyous space anymore. It becomes a very toxic, a
Speaker 1: toxic place. And so like hearing this story and seeing
Speaker 1: how so much of what we use still is based
Speaker 1: on something that was.
Speaker 5: A guy walked in with the Playboy.
Speaker 1: Magazine like, it's it's bad when you that doesn't feel
Speaker 1: so out of place and what we're talking about in
Speaker 1: our current time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again, I mean, I opened up our conversation
Speaker 3: with this, but I guess, and I guess I'll close
Speaker 3: with that too. I believe people when I say this,
Speaker 3: people think I sound alarmist or extreme, but I mean
Speaker 3: it the way that I mean it. I think that
Speaker 3: these things are features, not bugs. I think we've got
Speaker 3: to be honest about the ways that things like misogyny
Speaker 3: and exploitation, particularly when it comes to marginalized people, has
Speaker 3: been foundational to technology and the Internet.
Speaker 2: From the very beginning. I love the Internet. I love technology.
Speaker 2: It is why I do the work that I do.
Speaker 3: But I think that until we are honest about that,
Speaker 3: but these things are features and not bugs, we will
Speaker 3: never get anywhere. And so I think that it really
Speaker 3: starts with having honest conversations about where we started so
Speaker 3: that we can get to a place that we that
Speaker 3: actually feels a little bit better for everybody.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, well, thank you so much. As always, Britte,
Speaker 1: every time you come on, I'm like, we could talk
Speaker 1: for hours about this and this and this.
Speaker 3: Invite me back for an episode just dragging Hugh Hefner.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll be here for it.
Speaker 4: I think we need to do this because I think
Speaker 4: this for a minute about back into the magazine world
Speaker 4: and jumping into like all of that.
Speaker 3: Don't even get I mean like this is like spoiler alert.
Speaker 3: I like totally had this wrong. For so long in
Speaker 3: my life, I was like, oh, Hugh Hefner was a
Speaker 3: champion for free speech.
Speaker 2: And the riots and blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: Then I grew up and learned and I was like, actually,
Speaker 3: she wasn't such a good guy.
Speaker 4: Right, I Mean, we really fed into the but read
Speaker 4: the articles so so good.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, the corbell.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, oh yes, please come back for that Bridget.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, where can the good listeners find you?
Speaker 3: Well, you can listen to my podcast. There are no
Speaker 3: girls on the internet. You can follow me. I'm not
Speaker 3: really on social media that much anymore, but you can
Speaker 3: try to find me there. I'm on Instagram at Bridget
Speaker 3: Marie in DC. I am at Blue Sky at Bridget
Speaker 3: Todd on Threads at Bridget Marie and DC sometimes on TikTok.
Speaker 3: You'll I'm easy to find. You'll find Google me. You'll
Speaker 3: find me, Yes, google me.
Speaker 4: That's a flex.
Speaker 5: It's true though. Our listeners are smart. They can find
Speaker 5: you and listeners.
Speaker 1: If you would like to contact us, you can our
Speaker 1: email us a step media mom stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at most of the podcasts,
Speaker 1: or on TikTok and Instagram that stuff I'll.
Speaker 5: Never told you.
Speaker 1: We're also on YouTube. We have a tea public store
Speaker 1: and a book you can get wherever you get your books.
Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super duced Christina, our executiveroducer
Speaker 1: My and your contributor Joey.
Speaker 4: Thank you, and.
Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening. Stuff will never told you
Speaker 1: this poiction by Heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio,
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