Speaker 1: Hey, it's me Corinn. Don't fast forward this, okay.
Speaker 2: I Am going on a fourteenth city stand up comedy
Speaker 2: tour with an hour of material that you've never heard before.
Speaker 2: I've elongated bits, I've worked on bits.
Speaker 1: It's good. I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 2: It's I have the Tiger Tour twenty twenty four, featuring
Speaker 2: Chloy le Branch, who you've heard on Guys We Fucked Podcast.
Speaker 2: If you live in these cities, buy your tickets now.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go through them. Tampa, Florida April seventeenth, Miami, Florida,
Speaker 2: April eighteenth, Atlanta, Georgia, April nineteenth and twentieth, Columbus, Ohio,
Speaker 2: April twenty fifth, Raleigh, North Carolina, April thirtieth, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania,
Speaker 2: May first, Boston May second, Portland, Oregon, May fourteenth, San
Speaker 2: Francisco May fifteenth, Sacramento May sixteenth, Seattle May seventeenth, Houston
Speaker 2: June twenty seventh, and Austin June twenty eighth and twenty ninth,
Speaker 2: and then Salt Lake City, Utah, rounding it out on
Speaker 2: September twenty sixth. All the tickets for all those shows
Speaker 2: are available now at Karinfisher dot com. You can also
Speaker 2: get it at the linktree link in any of my
Speaker 2: bios on social media. I'm at Philanthropy Gal again. I
Speaker 2: have the Tiger Tour twenty twenty four. Get your tickets now,
Speaker 2: see you there. We're gonna have a blast.
Speaker 1: Welcome the guys We find the anti slut shaming podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Christina Hutchinson, I'm Kuren Fister, and I'm gona boys friends,
Speaker 1: bring us So it's flooding your horny and your shame. Heys,
Speaker 1: what yes, Okay, we're here recording, recording, rolling, Yay, this
Speaker 1: is first step.
Speaker 3: Great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, greetings, fuckers, how you doing where you've been
Speaker 1: or your socks clean? Welcome to another episode of Guys
Speaker 1: We Fucked.
Speaker 2: It's the anti slut shaming podcast. I'm Karen Fisher, I'm
Speaker 2: Christina Hutchinson. Welcome to the show. Los Angeless May eleventh.
Speaker 1: Are you there? So we're gonna be doing the live
Speaker 1: episode of Guys We Fucked for the Netflix is a
Speaker 1: joke festival.
Speaker 2: It's a live podcast for recording. You're gonna want to
Speaker 2: be there. It's at the Regent Theater. This is fancy.
Speaker 2: This is a big deal. Let's not have everyone regret it,
Speaker 2: including ourselves. Yes, please buy ticket now, don't.
Speaker 1: Wait, don't make us. We're gonna give you the spiel.
Speaker 1: It's I feel like it's stick.
Speaker 2: Your guys is kink to make us sweat it out,
Speaker 2: and then ultimately the room is always full and like, Okay,
Speaker 2: all's well, that ends well, I guess, guys, but you.
Speaker 1: Know it's better. All's well, that's well. The whole time,
Speaker 1: we're not call our daddy. We can't afford to have
Speaker 1: Netflix pissed at us. We can't, we can't. We don't.
Speaker 2: They already didn't like I hate so much, and they
Speaker 2: made it so clear. So the fact that they even
Speaker 2: are letting us do this festival is.
Speaker 1: Like very Yeah, we can't make Daddy mad. It was
Speaker 1: a surprise. Let's not have Daddy get angry. Buy your ticket.
Speaker 1: Please get all of our link tree bios at guys,
Speaker 1: we fucked without the U and fucked. I'm at Christina Hutch,
Speaker 1: I'm at Philanthropy. Ou O click those links, baby, It's
Speaker 1: very accessible, very excessive. Oh my goodness, jesus.
Speaker 2: Okay, guy, if you want to send us an email,
Speaker 2: it's sorry about last night's show at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: This subject line says five months pregnant and want my
Speaker 2: husband to take a dick pill.
Speaker 1: Okay, sounds tommy one. Mommy gets what mommy wants.
Speaker 2: Hi, Corn and Christina love you both and the show.
Speaker 2: Your podcast is the only one I listened to religiously.
Speaker 2: Thank you anyway. I'm thirty one and my husband is
Speaker 2: thirty three. We've been together for nine years, married for
Speaker 2: almost three. He is my favorite person and I'm incredibly
Speaker 2: attracted to him still.
Speaker 1: I love the use of stow. I really love comedically.
Speaker 1: I love how shocked you are by it, writer.
Speaker 2: I really love the stow. I'm five months pregnant and
Speaker 2: super horny all the time.
Speaker 1: That makes me want of a baby like I could
Speaker 1: fuck one to two times a day if we had
Speaker 1: the time. My husband has always had a lower sex
Speaker 1: drive than me, but usually he is always down to
Speaker 1: have sex, especially because he knows how horny I've been lately.
Speaker 1: Good because you are carrying that baby. It's a lot
Speaker 1: of work.
Speaker 2: The problem is his dick just isn't getting as hard
Speaker 2: as it used to. It's hard enough, but not like
Speaker 2: rock hard. I know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yea, yeah for sure.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it'll go soft in the middle of having sex,
Speaker 2: and it's never a big deal.
Speaker 1: That wouldn't be I wouldn't love that thirty three were young.
Speaker 1: We just take a break and he will focus on me.
Speaker 1: But I miss his super hard dick me too.
Speaker 2: I tried to see if waiting a few extra days
Speaker 2: to have sex would help, but it's still only just
Speaker 2: hard enough.
Speaker 1: God, and we all know that feeling. They just hard
Speaker 1: enough dick. I go, I'm just yeah, I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: have a snack. I just like I rather eatwich.
Speaker 2: I would rather eat a piece of chocolate cake than
Speaker 2: deal with your semi erect penis what am I.
Speaker 1: Supposed to do with that? And look, die is your
Speaker 1: dick semi erect? It's only a personal tack.
Speaker 2: If that's the cake, that's because you and you don't
Speaker 2: eat vegetables, Eric.
Speaker 4: I do eat vegetables.
Speaker 1: I have a very healthy diet. I okay, really, yeah?
Speaker 1: Would you eat today?
Speaker 4: I had three hard boiled eggs?
Speaker 1: Oh, guest on over here? Yeah? Oh man morning? Okay.
Speaker 1: I want to gently suggest he literally, he used literally
Speaker 1: any dick enhancing pay it like that.
Speaker 2: He has even mentioned that other male comedian podcasts have
Speaker 2: made him want to try a dick pill.
Speaker 1: There we go.
Speaker 2: But he just said it in passing because he all,
Speaker 2: you got to talk to him. He needs you to
Speaker 2: get desperate, apparently, any advice for a horny pregnant woman. Thanks,
Speaker 2: Buy them for him and leave them out in a
Speaker 2: little dish, like a candy dish. I've done this for people, don't.
Speaker 2: I don't have to be cute about it. No, just
Speaker 2: leave it where you know he will see it. Or
Speaker 2: you can be like sexy like ooh, like you want
Speaker 2: to make your fucking dick rock hard? Baby, I got
Speaker 2: you this blue shoe. I heard it's gonna be rock card.
Speaker 4: Yeah, or just playing this part of the podcast right now, Wow,
Speaker 4: gain an extra half inch, just just for the spectacle.
Speaker 1: Just take it, and it's worth it, gain a half
Speaker 1: an inch. I know, guys, well, I guess if it's harder. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know. It's like when your hair is wet and
Speaker 1: it looks longer, you know.
Speaker 5: I know.
Speaker 1: I know guys who like don't are not even having
Speaker 1: any easy issues, and they will take a dick pill
Speaker 1: just to like make it like a super dick. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they can do it. You can certainly do it.
Speaker 2: I just really don't have any I have. I have
Speaker 2: sympathy for people that they have the problem initially, but
Speaker 2: I don't have any sympathy for people who aren't doing
Speaker 2: anything about it because of the fucking highest ass standards
Speaker 2: women are held to in a society. You have a problem,
Speaker 2: that's fine, fucking do something about it. Enough is enough.
Speaker 1: Doesn't have to be a problem. It doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be a problem.
Speaker 2: There are so many especially when when for men getting hard,
Speaker 2: there are a thousand products on the market to fix this,
Speaker 2: because nothing nothing worse for a man than him not
Speaker 2: being able to use his dick flail it around.
Speaker 1: Okay, they've made the product, you consume it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and if he works out, I mean tell them
Speaker 4: to take it go for a workout, because that I
Speaker 4: mean just the that performance alone.
Speaker 1: Is taking a dick pill and working out in the
Speaker 1: fucking Oh.
Speaker 4: I don't know if you afterwards, but you just take
Speaker 4: to work out. No, but I have taken them and
Speaker 4: then like day of it's I've gone to like the
Speaker 4: gym and I'm like, oh, I can run for so
Speaker 4: much longer.
Speaker 1: Whoa everything longer? It opens up your uh chakra.
Speaker 6: Sure we'll say that, dickra you're.
Speaker 1: Dickra Yeah, you just put it somewhere because you're carrying
Speaker 1: that baby. You your pregnancy happens to make you very horny.
Speaker 1: He needs to be of service as the guy who
Speaker 1: just went into you to make that baby happen. You're
Speaker 1: the one cooking it, Okay, you're doing all the hard work.
Speaker 2: I also wonder though, like if it's something like if
Speaker 2: it did your pregnancy and him having dick problems, did
Speaker 2: that go one hundred percent hand in hand because some people,
Speaker 2: it's like some guys in their heads are weird about
Speaker 2: like just hitting the baby. Yeah, just like it feels
Speaker 2: like and I can kind of understand this. Not not
Speaker 2: that hitting because you're not gonna actually hit the baby.
Speaker 2: That's just like them not understanding science. But it's like
Speaker 2: there is something that maybe you don't want to, like
Speaker 2: you you don't want to just absolutely like eviscerate the
Speaker 2: pussy of the woman like holding your child. Yeah right,
Speaker 2: you know, I get that. I understand that part of it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, but he needs to take a medicine and
Speaker 2: get past that.
Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah, I mean I'm weird, Like I had sex
Speaker 1: this morning and my dog was buried under the blanket
Speaker 1: I'm like, you can't be in here. You got to leave, Kevin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's weird. Can't. Yeah, it's weird. I can't. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: I can see a guy being like, well, there's a baby.
Speaker 1: I can't see it, but I know you obviously you
Speaker 1: know it's there. I can't understand that. Yeah, I can
Speaker 1: do it. I can rationalize this for sure. And some
Speaker 1: women aren't horny during pregnancy and some arm and I'm like,
Speaker 1: if you're horny, that means you owe me your dick. Sorry,
Speaker 1: We're in this together, teamwork.
Speaker 2: I mean, listen, we've told many women on this podcast
Speaker 2: to fucking suck it up and fuck their boyfriend. So yeah, honestly, yeah,
Speaker 2: this is we're giving, I think, really equal opportunity.
Speaker 1: Yes, And if you are in Springfield, Missouri, where are
Speaker 1: you at Springfield, Missouri? I'm headlining the Blue Room Comedy
Speaker 1: Club March twenty second and twenty third. My debut stand
Speaker 1: up comedy album, Goog Girl Barbara is available wherever you
Speaker 1: get your stand up album Spotify, I Heard Radio app
Speaker 1: and iTunes are the iTunes store. I have a Patreon
Speaker 1: where once a week I do group zoom therapy. Therapy
Speaker 1: is what I call because I'm not a licensed therapist, Chad,
Speaker 1: and I'm also doing on my solo podcast, The Voices
Speaker 1: in Our Heads. I'm currently doing a deep dive on
Speaker 1: this book called Supercharged Self Healing by RJ. Spina, who,
Speaker 1: as I've mentioned before, cured himself from chest down paralysis.
Speaker 1: There is something I forgot, there is something I want
Speaker 1: to talk about this intro, but it has to do
Speaker 1: with this. So I'm reading a couple pages of each
Speaker 1: chapter on the end of The Voices in Our Heads.
Speaker 1: It's a really powerful book and he gets very potent exercises,
Speaker 1: and then I'm finishing the chapter readings on my Patreon,
Speaker 1: So if you just sign up for five bucks a month,
Speaker 1: you get to listen in on those zoom sessions, but
Speaker 1: you also get to listen in on the bonus chapter readings.
Speaker 1: But one thing I just wanted to give everybody because
Speaker 1: I feel like it would be very helpful specifically to
Speaker 1: this show. RJ. Spina, who's the author of the book.
Speaker 1: He has another book out let me get the exact title.
Speaker 1: It says some similar stuff. It's called change your deprogramming
Speaker 1: your subconscious mind, rewire the brain, balance your energy. He
Speaker 1: has this one notebook exercise that I thought could be
Speaker 1: beneficial to any listener that kind of them finds themselves
Speaker 1: in relationship pattern that you don't like. He basically says
Speaker 1: that buy a notebook and a pen, and if you
Speaker 1: could take off work grade. If you can't find just
Speaker 1: do it at work if you can. If not, just
Speaker 1: do it when you're not at work. But basically interrogate yourself.
Speaker 1: So every time you go to text somebody, or you
Speaker 1: go to scroll on social media, or you go to
Speaker 1: do something, or you get stuck in this thought pattern,
Speaker 1: take a pause and write down what you're doing and
Speaker 1: ask yourself why why are you doing that? And the
Speaker 1: goal is to uncover your subconscious bringing your subconscious programming
Speaker 1: into your consciousness and it kind of makes it dissolve
Speaker 1: and you gain all this confidence. It's a very intriguing exercise.
Speaker 1: I myself have not done it yet, but this one
Speaker 1: example he gave I wrote down because I'm like, I
Speaker 1: want to share this. So this one woman who was
Speaker 1: a of RJ's he suggested this. She basically on paper,
Speaker 1: she's a Reikie healer, her career is going well. She
Speaker 1: can't even take on any more new clients because her
Speaker 1: business is going so good, but she said, every relation,
Speaker 1: intimate relationship I've have sucks the life out of me,
Speaker 1: and it's ruining my good time and all the things
Speaker 1: that she's worked on for her career. So she did
Speaker 1: this notebooks exercise and it completely transformed her. One of
Speaker 1: the examples that she gave that r J shares in
Speaker 1: the book was so she went to text her boyfriend
Speaker 1: to see how he's doing, and he just says, ask yourself,
Speaker 1: why are you doing that? Why it's because I feel
Speaker 1: responsible for his happiness. Why do you feel responsible for
Speaker 1: his happiness because it's my job to make sure he's happy.
Speaker 1: Why does it feel like that's your job? And she said,
Speaker 1: because I don't want to fail? And then she asked herself,
Speaker 1: why do you think you failed if someone isn't happy?
Speaker 1: And she answered that question saying, because it means I'm
Speaker 1: not good enough, good enough for what for anybody? I
Speaker 1: don't deserve to be in a relationship. If I can't
Speaker 1: make someone happy, I need to make someone else happy
Speaker 1: so I feel better about my my self conscious need
Speaker 1: to make people happy is because I don't value myself,
Speaker 1: so I constantly focus on making sure everybody else is
Speaker 1: doing good. She said she would listen and obsess over
Speaker 1: what she could do to fix people, and I was like,
Speaker 1: oh wow, this this woman did this notebook exercise for
Speaker 1: like a week and it completely transformed. And all it
Speaker 1: is is just bringing in the root of your of
Speaker 1: the habits that you do when your kind of need
Speaker 1: jerk reactions to like people please, for example, it's a
Speaker 1: super toxic trait, and it's kind of easier to get
Speaker 1: to the bottom of things than we think. You just
Speaker 1: ask yourself why, sit there for a second and really
Speaker 1: honestly answer it, and then just the act of answering
Speaker 1: it and bringing it to light will make you more
Speaker 1: aware of why you do that. So a lot of
Speaker 1: people get stuck in negative relationship patterns with romance, and
Speaker 1: I think that's a good little tool. So for me
Speaker 1: to you have fun enjoy it sounds like she needs
Speaker 1: some reking on herself. Well, it's always the healers that
Speaker 1: are the most fucked up people, the therapists.
Speaker 2: I just it's so it's like it's actually like funny
Speaker 2: at this point, Like whenever a time I hear like
Speaker 2: someone going through like some kind of a journal prompt
Speaker 2: or that like I was intrigued by the initial question
Speaker 2: very much. I'm always you know, unhappy in these in relationships.
Speaker 2: And then I'm like, yea on edge of my see,
Speaker 2: I'm like, what's the answer, and then I go, oh,
Speaker 2: immediately have nothing in common with this person?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, not relate to me. Yeah. The goal is
Speaker 1: to uncover like you're operating from a place of insecurity
Speaker 1: and if you can, if you can just bring that
Speaker 1: to the surface by verbalizing it or just writing it
Speaker 1: down on this exercise case, a lot of times, that'll
Speaker 1: make you stop doing it, Yeah, which is pretty cool.
Speaker 1: That's why it's like good to get to the root
Speaker 1: of the problem, to identify it. Yes, and then you
Speaker 1: can do the most important step, which is fix it
Speaker 1: in charge of your own life. Fucking fix it. Personal responsibility. Baby,
Speaker 1: it's what's for dinner. It's amazing. And I was also
Speaker 1: you know, it's your personal responsibility. Everyone buying a ticket
Speaker 1: to one of my Eye of the Tiger twenty twenty
Speaker 1: four shows. Okay, I will be on the road a
Speaker 1: lot in April, May, going into June and September a
Speaker 1: little bit with the one and only Chloe Labranch. So
Speaker 1: here are the cities and the dates. It's Tampa April seventeenth,
Speaker 1: Miami April eighteenth, Atlanta April nineteenth and twentieth, Columbus, Ohio,
Speaker 1: April twenty fifth, Raleigh, North Carolina, April thirtieth, Philadelphia May first,
Speaker 1: Boston May second, Portland, Oregon, May fourteenth, San Francisco May fifteenth,
Speaker 1: Sacramento May sixteenth, Seattle, Washington, May seventeenth, Houston, Texas June
Speaker 1: twenty seventh, Austin, Texas June twenty eighth and twenty ninth,
Speaker 1: and Salt Lake City, Utah, September twenty sixth. Ticks are
Speaker 1: available at Corinnefisher dot com. It's on the main page,
Speaker 1: but you could also click live if you want more
Speaker 1: of that. It's accessible. You can also access it via
Speaker 1: the link tree link in my bio on Instagram at
Speaker 1: Philanthropy gal. Again, you're gonna come to the show, just
Speaker 1: buy the tickets sooner than later, because a lot of
Speaker 1: these are one nighters. A couple are like a couple
Speaker 1: shows at night, but like they do track it and
Speaker 1: if everyone waits till like the week of the shows
Speaker 1: will get canceled. Not that this is in danger of
Speaker 1: happening already, but We're just like we just know from
Speaker 1: the past, like this is how this is. Our listeners
Speaker 1: like to buy tickets late and that is bad.
Speaker 2: Yep, it's not not good. So please stop doing that.
Speaker 2: We appreciate you coming. But if you could make a decision,
Speaker 2: you know, two weeks, three weeks in advance, that would
Speaker 2: be great.
Speaker 1: And uh, just just think about how that like it.
Speaker 2: You know, think of how you feel when a guy
Speaker 2: you like texts you for plans day of instead of
Speaker 2: setting it like a couple days in advance. Think of
Speaker 2: how much better the in advanced plans feel okay and
Speaker 2: they really care. Yeah, it feels like you really wanted
Speaker 2: to be there and it's not just a last fucking restort.
Speaker 1: Oh, this other girl didn't text me, so courn you
Speaker 1: want to go out to dinner exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: And additionally, yeah, it just helps us prepare everything. And
Speaker 2: of course, and this happened in Washington, d C. But uh,
Speaker 2: if you bring someone who doesn't listen to guys, we
Speaker 2: bring someone who's not familiar with my comedy and create
Speaker 2: a new fan and bond with that person. That is
Speaker 2: like amazing thing to do for female comedians in general,
Speaker 2: because as we talk about every week people don't cold
Speaker 2: see female comedians, and they're going to get not one,
Speaker 2: but two great female comedians, probably three if there's a host.
Speaker 2: A lot of times they pick a female host for
Speaker 2: me because I hold a knife up to their throat
Speaker 2: and I sy female only. Otherwise they're not getting on
Speaker 2: my fucking stage. But it's great, and of course you
Speaker 2: can continue listening to without a Country. Last week we
Speaker 2: went over my c Span appearance, which was just fucking incredible.
Speaker 2: The people who called in every week we've been really
Speaker 2: diving in and again getting closer and closer to that
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four election that is going to be Biden
Speaker 2: versus Trump.
Speaker 1: So you're gonna want to be politically aware. And that's
Speaker 1: on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts on Wednesdays,
Speaker 1: all right.
Speaker 4: And come see me, Yes, go ahead, and Edmonton, Vancouver, Plano,
Speaker 4: Phoenix or Minneapolis, and all those those dates are in
Speaker 4: the link my bio at Eric Freddy F R E. T.
Speaker 4: T Y at Instagram.
Speaker 2: Make sure you're following him even if you're not going
Speaker 2: to code any of those shows. Guys support Baby got
Speaker 2: to support the team, the team of guys we fucked
Speaker 2: don't send Eric.
Speaker 1: Hand pictures though, hand pictures. That's that was the thing
Speaker 1: that we had with Mike and Judge. If you're hot
Speaker 1: based on the picture of your hand, yeah, he has
Speaker 1: he's a he has a hand fixation. So people, some
Speaker 1: people have ugly hands. Yeah, and they were men were
Speaker 1: confidently sending my pictures of their hands, and even us
Speaker 1: as non hand aficionados, could tell that they were not
Speaker 1: good hands. Oh yeah, there was some hands build with
Speaker 1: those hands. Girl, Yeah, they were not they were not
Speaker 1: or they're just like stubby little hands oh dump thumbs. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just not good hands that were coming in.
Speaker 4: So listen to my podcast, the podcast at Eric It's
Speaker 4: Eric and Diego have Sex only on Patreon.
Speaker 1: What wow? Is this a new podcast?
Speaker 6: No, I've had it for like a year, but it's.
Speaker 1: Called Eric and dieg ide It was his room. Eric
Speaker 1: and Diego have said, yes, And what inspired you to
Speaker 1: call it that?
Speaker 4: We just thought it is funny, a.
Speaker 1: Bit of an earwork.
Speaker 4: We wanted to gay bait a little bit community.
Speaker 1: Wow, I just say that. Oh my god.
Speaker 2: All right, well, uh, you know it is award season
Speaker 2: and as every awards season goes, there will be a
Speaker 2: man on stage who was once broken but was brought
Speaker 2: back to life talking about Robert by the love of one. Yes,
Speaker 2: I am talking about Robert down.
Speaker 1: I think everyone. I think.
Speaker 2: I think I've gotten so deeply into our listeners' brains
Speaker 2: that I was sitting there hoping I was. I was,
Speaker 2: like anyone who listens to guys we fucked and is
Speaker 2: also watching the Oscars right now knows I'm going to
Speaker 2: feel some sort of way about this speech.
Speaker 1: And let me just preface this.
Speaker 2: By saying, I love Robert Downey gin your He is
Speaker 2: so fucking hot. He is one of the hottest people
Speaker 2: to ever exist. He looked so fucking hot last night
Speaker 2: that Zaddy. I mean, that guy's like he's getting up
Speaker 2: there in eight. He's in his sixties.
Speaker 1: He's yeah, he's he's elderly, and he is so fucking
Speaker 1: feign I fifty eight. Yeah, okay, so I'm sorry, he
Speaker 1: is almost sixty. That's not elderly. I'm gonna retrash it.
Speaker 1: That's great to know that you could be that hot
Speaker 1: at sixty. I think it's not very common, but for Robert.
Speaker 2: Well, and also keep in mind that, like I think,
Speaker 2: he also looked older previously because of all the excess
Speaker 2: of drug use. So now, in comparison to how he
Speaker 2: used to look like, he's he's probably really like obsessed
Speaker 2: with health, because you know how people with addiction get
Speaker 2: obsessed with something else. He probably got obsessed with like
Speaker 2: taking care of himself. And so in his you know,
Speaker 2: he's he's been with his current wife for a while.
Speaker 2: You know, of course he hasn't just been married once.
Speaker 2: He's a celebrity, but he's he doesn't have a terrible
Speaker 2: track record, right, And so he looks down at his wife.
Speaker 2: And she's a movie producer, which makes sense someone who
Speaker 2: has control of a fucking situation. A lot of these
Speaker 2: delinquent men will go with female Hollywood movie producers, which
Speaker 2: even though I am a creedive my personality type is
Speaker 2: definitely a Hollywood producer.
Speaker 1: It's not talent. Talent's all over the place, can't fucking
Speaker 1: remember to pay their own rent. I have producer energy,
Speaker 1: Yes you do.
Speaker 2: And so I know that, and I so anytime I said,
Speaker 2: I go, oh, this is a situation I would find
Speaker 2: myself in somehow.
Speaker 1: And he looks down at her, right, and he and
Speaker 1: you know and everyone.
Speaker 2: It's very well known in Hollywood that Robert Downing Junior
Speaker 2: has had a bumpy road with addiction, like just a
Speaker 2: excess of drug sex worker just like you know, all
Speaker 2: this kind of stuff and not that and you know,
Speaker 2: sex worder is bad, but he managed to do it badly,
Speaker 2: and so he I mean it's you know, he even
Speaker 2: makes a joke about him, you know, kind of being
Speaker 2: unensurable for a good amount of his Hollywood career. And
Speaker 2: he looks down at his wife and he said, you know,
Speaker 2: a really talented, successful person in her own right.
Speaker 1: And he and he goes, you know, baby, you loved me.
Speaker 1: Back to life, and everyone in the in the audience goes, oh,
Speaker 1: everyone's heart strengths are being tugged. That's not cute.
Speaker 2: And I don't know why it is, is society, how we
Speaker 2: can't get that out of our head, that that's not cute.
Speaker 2: This woman, I mean, she's probably twenty and she looked forty.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was like she was no, no. But I'm
Speaker 1: just saying, like, because of how much time he's taken
Speaker 1: off of her life. The told he's taken on this woman, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: And like I appreciate that he's acknowledging her public of course,
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. He can't undo his thus as it happens,
Speaker 1: it happened. He can appreciate her. He can think her publicly.
Speaker 2: But that's not enough. I hope he's doing and maybe
Speaker 2: he is behind the scenes. I hope he's doing a
Speaker 2: thousand times more for that for her. I hope he
Speaker 2: is stepping up in ways above and beyond as a
Speaker 2: an eternal thank you to this woman. You know, what's
Speaker 2: likely that it happens you put in the shee runner
Speaker 2: one day.
Speaker 1: But I want to think.
Speaker 2: Positively about this, right, But what I did not appreciate
Speaker 2: everyone's reaction in the crowd, Grow the fuck up.
Speaker 1: That's not cute, Like, that's not we're thinking.
Speaker 2: We're we're giving a thank you as number one as
Speaker 2: we're accepting an oscar?
Speaker 1: Still something for us? Still something? What did she get?
Speaker 1: Where's her oscar? Where's her oscar? For digging you out
Speaker 1: of a meth ditch? Robert? And then so as a society,
Speaker 1: like I.
Speaker 2: Would like to us to reframe our thinking and stop
Speaker 2: giving men credit for like yet, like, how about if
Speaker 2: you just didn't go to the worst depths of yourself?
Speaker 2: Because I know so many women who didn't. What if
Speaker 2: you just didn't travel there and make a woman pluck
Speaker 2: you out of it, what can we And what if
Speaker 2: we just all applauded you for not ever going there.
Speaker 1: But let's just applaud for that.
Speaker 2: Let's give Matt Damon a round of applause for just
Speaker 2: not ever doing that. You know, there are a couple
Speaker 2: marrying a waitress, right, just just being like a fucking
Speaker 2: normal person.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and uh yeah. And then but then I started
Speaker 1: thinking of like, you know, we get getting very into
Speaker 1: the woo woo and like our roles and how who
Speaker 1: we were in past lives are these lives? And I
Speaker 1: was like maybe.
Speaker 2: Then another part of me was started thinking, like I've
Speaker 2: tried to fight against this, this.
Speaker 1: Like a dynamic for so long. It's a battle. I am.
Speaker 1: I'm not personally losing it, but I feel like as women,
Speaker 1: we are still losing this battle, right, And so then
Speaker 1: I started thinking, what if for the iteration of your life,
Speaker 1: for the lifetime that you are a woman, or the
Speaker 1: lifetimes that you are a woman, is it just our
Speaker 1: role in the dynamic of society to fix broken men?
Speaker 1: Is that just it? Is that?
Speaker 2: Is that the challenge that we are supposed to be
Speaker 2: getting through in that lifetime.
Speaker 1: Is that another option?
Speaker 2: I don't know, because it feels so overwhelming, and we
Speaker 2: are constantly and I mean I think this is the patriarch.
Speaker 2: We are constantly like applauded for helping broken men.
Speaker 1: It doesn't feel good, No, it's not. It's exhausting, and
Speaker 1: it comes from a place of Usually if you repair
Speaker 1: a broken man, it's coming from a different place, right,
Speaker 1: Like you're like trying to fix something else, nothing to
Speaker 1: do with him.
Speaker 2: I mean, or you think that you just have to
Speaker 2: do that much work in order to receive love. I
Speaker 2: think it's more like that totally. But what is yeah,
Speaker 2: like what and as but as also as as people
Speaker 2: not part of these relationships where a woman is fixing
Speaker 2: a broken man, we need to stop. We need to
Speaker 2: stop applauding like the man for like a minimal thank
Speaker 2: you for the chaos, and have the key rates on
Speaker 2: this woman's life and then also like stop applauding the woman.
Speaker 1: For doing that.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna actually say, like stop, maybe if we stopped
Speaker 2: rewarding women for doing these things, they would stop doing them.
Speaker 2: You know, how will we only applaud her for like
Speaker 2: producing the amazing movies? That she's produced and not for
Speaker 2: you know, because he literally said he's like you found
Speaker 2: me when I mean, it was like the language he
Speaker 2: used was like you you know and again like if
Speaker 2: it is no Hollywood mystery that Robert Downey Junr. Was
Speaker 2: fucking rock bottom And then there's a part of me
Speaker 2: I thought that was, like, what did she find appealing
Speaker 2: about Robert Downey Junior at rock bottom? Did she see
Speaker 2: the potential, the Zaddy, the charismatic Oscar Award winning actor
Speaker 2: that was inside of him? And she decided this is
Speaker 2: this is my next project that I want to produce.
Speaker 2: This is this next thing that I want to embark on.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I can't answer these questions.
Speaker 2: Only she can, and like so often like and there
Speaker 2: has to be something to it because so often like
Speaker 2: I'm at home, dry heaving, and the woman you know
Speaker 2: is seems proud and happy with this little acknowledgment.
Speaker 1: And I don't want to take that away from that.
Speaker 1: If you feel proud, good fucking enjoy that, Yeah, But
Speaker 1: I just it makes me have such larger questions about relationships,
Speaker 1: especially had her sexual relationships and societies, like I mean,
Speaker 1: we love a comeback story of course you love a
Speaker 1: comeback story. And I do think too, like when you're
Speaker 1: with a romantic partner and you love them, like even
Speaker 1: with my friends, like I'll see the best in them,
Speaker 1: and so maybe it's like that, like I see how
Speaker 1: good you are, and I see all the muck on
Speaker 1: top of it that you don't really see right now.
Speaker 2: But she she didn't even It's not like she met him.
Speaker 2: He fell into addiction and then she got right. She
Speaker 2: met him when he was I mean, I'm guessing probably incoherent.
Speaker 2: I'm probably pretty charismatic and charming, probably like I don't know,
Speaker 2: like like okay, like what like I mean he was
Speaker 2: using what like what drugs?
Speaker 1: He is so charming and so hot, Oh my god, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like the sex appeal probably wasn't that watered down with
Speaker 1: the addiction stuff. Like sometimes it's hard to tell. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I will say too as somebody and I've said
Speaker 1: this before, but I just I'll remind you I was
Speaker 1: using heroin and crack fuck, so he was okay, wow,
Speaker 1: those are very opposite drugs. See, because I know it's
Speaker 1: not just like a Hollywood guy who's buzzing on coke.
Speaker 1: This this is it says it says by nineteen ninety five,
Speaker 1: he had descended into the harrowing depths of heroin and
Speaker 1: cracked pane abuse, leading to multiple arrests and numerous stints
Speaker 1: in rehab facilities. Yeah, you know, even if Robert Downey Juter,
Speaker 1: even if like I had a friend and I found
Speaker 1: out they were using heroin, I would feel a little
Speaker 1: bit of a responsibility to try to get them, help them,
Speaker 1: to help them as much as I can. I would
Speaker 1: that that's a bummer, But a.
Speaker 2: Lot of times that help really turns into enabling in backfire.
Speaker 2: So like the kind of life that you would need
Speaker 2: to give as a romantic partner, it had to be
Speaker 2: I'm guessing in some way enabling. And then just in
Speaker 2: Susan her name is Susan. In Susan Downe's case, it
Speaker 2: turned out positive, right, luck.
Speaker 1: Of the draw kind of thing exactly right, right right,
Speaker 1: And listen, you know, we love a gambling woman, we
Speaker 1: love a risk taking a woman. Goddamn right, But why
Speaker 1: not it's just again, why not take this risk on yourself?
Speaker 1: Like it was worth that maybe of a risk for love.
Speaker 1: Maybe she already maybe she already risked her like took
Speaker 1: risks on her during her whole life, and she's really
Speaker 1: proud of her progress, and she's like, well, this is nothing.
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe I just mean they like the amount of
Speaker 2: time and the thank you, like you can tell you
Speaker 2: can tell from the thank you how bad the crack
Speaker 2: cocaine used was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got that. I got me.
Speaker 2: Sure we could tell from Robert Downey's juniors things.
Speaker 1: You could believe he was alive. The crack use was alarming. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: cracks alarming. Don't do it, kids, And I'll say I
Speaker 1: I am. I am a person here to tell you
Speaker 1: that it is possible to be with a partner who
Speaker 1: is in an active addiction and they themselves without you
Speaker 1: saying a goddamn thing, want to make their lives better
Speaker 1: and enter sobriety, and you're there for the ride, but
Speaker 1: you had nothing to do with their decision to be sober.
Speaker 1: It's amazing, But you also agree that was a gamble
Speaker 1: for you to enter that in hoping that he would stop.
Speaker 1: Uh huh right, yes, okay, But I also I wasn't
Speaker 1: saying much about it. I was be I was kind
Speaker 1: of like distant from his addiction because I knew that
Speaker 1: I'm like it's not going to be potent in any way.
Speaker 1: If I'm the one who, like who pushes you to
Speaker 1: get there, it won't stick. You have to do it,
Speaker 1: and you know, my head, I'm like, well, we can't
Speaker 1: get to these certain milestones if it's still like this,
Speaker 1: you know, but you gotta kind of hope Hope. Really, yeah,
Speaker 1: sometimes hope works. It's my most destructive addiction is hope.
Speaker 1: But then when it works, you're like, oh, it's so good.
Speaker 1: You don't know Hope like I do. Well, it's just
Speaker 1: me and Hope. It's great. Hope's my best friend. It's
Speaker 1: my fucking lover, she said, spanks me and makes me
Speaker 1: walk around in high heels and crawl on the floor. Damn,
Speaker 1: Hope is so sexy. Hope. You got it girl. So yeah, glad,
Speaker 1: he's glad, he's sober. Yeah, I could tell by that speech.
Speaker 1: Well one I already heard, like I heard your monologue.
Speaker 1: I was watching it and it was killing me because
Speaker 1: I really I was so happy for him, and I really, yeah,
Speaker 1: I can't. This is first Oscar. Yeah it was. He
Speaker 1: was been nominating before but he never won, And like
Speaker 1: you could tell, I mean, there was a number when
Speaker 1: there was too many fucking standing ovations that that Oscars
Speaker 1: last night. Yey were standing for it. They just stood
Speaker 1: for good. They stood for Jimmy Kimmel. I was like, laughable,
Speaker 1: this is laughable. I will say the way that they
Speaker 1: presented like best Actress, best supporting and stuff with they
Speaker 1: had like the previous winners and said the most beautiful
Speaker 1: that was really nice and copy that those actors gave
Speaker 1: it was sincere. It was heartfelt, beautifully performed themselves. I
Speaker 1: hope so too. It felt like it because especially the
Speaker 1: ones that had a personal connection with Yah. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: that was such a beautiful touch. I'm like, damn, I
Speaker 1: liked it too. To be honest, I totally forgot, like
Speaker 1: when Kimmel was like, uh, you know, we thought we
Speaker 1: this is the fifth fiftieth anniversary of the Streaker, we
Speaker 1: thought that was gonna be the most I totally forgot
Speaker 1: about the Will Smith slop. I totally felt it left
Speaker 1: my until I brought that up. I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, yeah, I forgot about that and so and
Speaker 1: because he was like, we thought this was gonna be
Speaker 1: the most memorable Oscars moment until you know, I was like,
Speaker 1: what was it? I forgot about that too. I forgot
Speaker 1: about that too. Yeah, wild that was the most talked
Speaker 1: about and I'm like, this is never not gonna be
Speaker 1: talked about the slap herd around the world and yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it's just we all. It just goes to say like,
Speaker 1: no one's important, no one's thinking about you. I wasn't
Speaker 1: thinking about the Will Smith slap for a year. Yeah
Speaker 1: that's crazy, that's true. We're all busy with our own lives, guys.
Speaker 1: Damn Okay, speaking of damns, We're so excited to be
Speaker 1: here with Mark Groves. We were saying before we before
Speaker 1: we started recording that, uh, it's so nice to have
Speaker 1: a guest on that we can actually use as a
Speaker 1: resource for our own lives. Yeah, we just called you
Speaker 1: in because we need help.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know what whatever, just to be here, so
Speaker 7: excited to be in person. But if we could, you know,
Speaker 7: do some intervention, a please use protection. Come on, the
Speaker 7: bully is an.
Speaker 1: Effective uh yeah yeah, then the fluid bonding is just
Speaker 1: you know, that's the point. I'm not going to date.
Speaker 1: What's the point for dating? But so this is really great.
Speaker 1: So Karin was told, I don't know if you want
Speaker 1: to go first Krin, but you I was thinking about
Speaker 1: what you were telling me earlier about codependency.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so I've been thinking about a lot about codependency.
Speaker 2: I actually like put little homework assignments for myself on
Speaker 2: my to do list for the week, and one of
Speaker 2: them was, like you have this podcast, Like, I know,
Speaker 2: people talk about codependency all the time.
Speaker 1: I seemingly know what it is.
Speaker 2: I think it's just hard with my personality to really
Speaker 2: wrap my mind around it. So when I saw that's
Speaker 2: one of the main things we're speaking about in your
Speaker 2: new book, like, I need some Can you explain to
Speaker 2: me what is codependency in Layman's terms, and what does
Speaker 2: that look like and like and how do people get
Speaker 2: themselves into codependent relationships? It feels like such a foreign
Speaker 2: concept to me that I that I really need someone.
Speaker 1: To break it down. Starts with your mother, Karina.
Speaker 6: I just yeah, I mean most stuff does got a
Speaker 6: bad rap.
Speaker 1: Yeah, some moms are bad.
Speaker 6: That's very true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can go hut time. My mouth was open,
Speaker 1: but I was done.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 7: Codependency The term is traditionally known in the addiction circles.
Speaker 7: So based on alan On and the original work in
Speaker 7: that space is by Melody B. D. It's a book
Speaker 7: called Codependent No More Right. And so we know codependency
Speaker 7: as this idea of being the enabler. So the person
Speaker 7: who's constantly like trying to shape shift help someone save them.
Speaker 7: And so people who are in relationship with addicts really
Speaker 7: need to understand that because they're part of the challenge.
Speaker 6: And I often think about that, and.
Speaker 7: You know, I'll get to like our definition of codependency
Speaker 7: that we have in the book, But I often think about,
Speaker 7: you know, when someone finally gets sober, it's one because
Speaker 7: the people around them say, I love you too much
Speaker 7: to let this happen anymore, and I will no longer
Speaker 7: participate in your addiction or whatever it is, your toxic behavior.
Speaker 7: And but when they get sober or stop doing the
Speaker 7: thing they're doing, the person who's trying to change them
Speaker 7: doesn't have a job anymore. So part of what the
Speaker 7: person who's trying to change people does, and this is
Speaker 7: dating unavailable people. This is staying in relationship dynamics that
Speaker 7: don't serve you, dating someone who's ambivalent, doesn't know what
Speaker 7: they want. These are all ways that we abandon ourselves
Speaker 7: and what we truly desire, and if we were to
Speaker 7: stop doing that, we stop sourcing our worth from someone
Speaker 7: needing us to help them change. So we define it
Speaker 7: in the book as a relational dynamic where we source
Speaker 7: safety from something or someone at the expense of ourselves
Speaker 7: and our overall well being and our safety. So it's
Speaker 7: essentially like you're not the main character in your story.
Speaker 6: It's always about other people. Now.
Speaker 7: On the other side, where we would think an attic
Speaker 7: normally takes that role is actually someone who generally has
Speaker 7: a challenge in the psychological world. They might say that
Speaker 7: they're underfunctioning, that they are not fully adulting, you know
Speaker 7: what I mean. And they might ident defight is broken,
Speaker 7: that there's something wrong with them.
Speaker 6: They really don't have a capacity to hold shame.
Speaker 7: And usually you find these people together, you find the
Speaker 7: person who's quote unquote more anxiously attached with the person
Speaker 7: who's more avoidant. So one is afraid that there's not
Speaker 7: there's too much space between me.
Speaker 6: And the other person.
Speaker 7: Like when we think about attachment styles and have you
Speaker 7: had someone come on and talk about it before.
Speaker 1: We've talked about yeah, talked about it before.
Speaker 7: I like to think of it instead of like I
Speaker 7: am anxious or I am avoidant, or I am secure,
Speaker 7: it's I'm prone to Because.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good because then you're labeling that for yourself
Speaker 1: for the rest of time because you kind of evolve.
Speaker 7: It's called earned secure, So you learn how to become secure,
Speaker 7: and it's your modeling behaviors of what a secure person
Speaker 7: would do, and you become secure. I mean, it sounds
Speaker 7: a lot easier than it is, but the I think
Speaker 7: of it like it's your relationship to space. So anxious
Speaker 7: people don't like too much space. It means a lack
Speaker 7: you're gonna leave me. I'm not safe, and avoiding people
Speaker 7: need space, so when there's not enough, they need space.
Speaker 6: So think about these two people together.
Speaker 1: And we've all seen two people start dating that you're like, no,
Speaker 1: what are you doing? And they just feed each other, right, Like,
Speaker 1: I've witnessed relationships where I'm like, it's just I don't
Speaker 1: want to be around you at a function or any
Speaker 1: and I've certainly been in those relationships. I've been that
Speaker 1: person and it's like you're just going to back away
Speaker 1: until they figure out that that's not good.
Speaker 7: That is such the healthy response when someone is constantly distancing.
Speaker 7: I always think like they can't move towards you if
Speaker 7: you keep taking up the space, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good one. How do you feel safe
Speaker 1: when you don't feel safe? That's a big question.
Speaker 7: Well, usually we're looking for the other person to alter
Speaker 7: the relationship dynamics so that safety becomes, you know something,
Speaker 7: so safety being like am I safe to self express?
Speaker 7: Am I safe to be myself? Am I safe to
Speaker 7: be vulnerable? Am I safe to have wounds? And ultimately
Speaker 7: it's like we're seeking for someone else to finally give
Speaker 7: us that, But it's really us who ask to give it, right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 7: it's all just evidence for our own you know, need
Speaker 7: to heal and grow.
Speaker 1: Have you felt unsafe in relationships past.
Speaker 6: One hundred percent? Even in the book?
Speaker 7: My wife and I in the book we talk we
Speaker 7: talked about relationship one point oh this sacred pause and
Speaker 7: relationship two point zero and that's our first relationship. Then
Speaker 7: a breakup and then we got back together, and that
Speaker 7: was not planned. I did not expect to get back
Speaker 7: together and really no.
Speaker 1: Together what I was very carefully watching this. I really
Speaker 1: love this, this story, I mean, great for the book,
Speaker 1: but I know that's not why you did it. You
Speaker 1: did Wow.
Speaker 6: Yeah. I was like, this is like the Notebook but better.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Relationship one point zero completely lacked safety because my wife
Speaker 7: was previously divorced, very dis She was afraid to come
Speaker 7: fully into the relationship and so she.
Speaker 6: Had this dream.
Speaker 7: And what how this came forward is I was going
Speaker 7: for a run and I was like, man, I keep
Speaker 7: feeling like I chase her and then and then I
Speaker 7: come close to her, and then she runs again. So
Speaker 7: I got back from the run and I was like, hey,
Speaker 7: you know, this is what I'm noticing, and she was like, yeah,
Speaker 7: you're right. I actually had this dream where there was
Speaker 7: a house that was burning and it was our relationship
Speaker 7: and the message I got was.
Speaker 6: You need to go.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 6: And this was about eight months into our relationship.
Speaker 7: Broke up with you no, no, no, but that she
Speaker 7: had been holding this fear because she didn't want to
Speaker 7: go anywhere. She was like, I finally met a guy
Speaker 7: who like thinks about how I think, is open to growth,
Speaker 7: et cetera, et cetera. And she was like, what's wrong
Speaker 7: with me that I can't choose this? I don't want
Speaker 7: to leave mm hmmm. And so she and I spent
Speaker 7: so much of our relational energy trying to figure out
Speaker 7: how to fix this thing right. So one she has
Speaker 7: to believe there's something wrong with her that she can't
Speaker 7: choose this relationship. And two I'm like, hey, like you're
Speaker 7: not you might leave at any moment, Like this dream
Speaker 7: still lives.
Speaker 2: But the dream was just fear right, Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 2: mean like it manifesting because so many we got a
Speaker 2: little too into woo woo stuff. And on this podcast,
Speaker 2: if I get one more email that's like I had
Speaker 2: a dream about this is this So on my relationship,
Speaker 2: I'm going to end it, okay, And I mean my
Speaker 2: own life, I just can't. Like I just so, I'm
Speaker 2: glad that you brought this up, because see, you guys,
Speaker 2: sometimes a dream is just our fear talking to us
Speaker 2: in our sleep.
Speaker 1: He's the show's from God. And a lot of times
Speaker 1: when you suppress your fear, it makes all the sense
Speaker 1: in the world that it's going to be manifest as
Speaker 1: a dream some metaphor. Yes, exactly. So you felt unsafe
Speaker 1: in relationship one point zero.
Speaker 7: Yeah, because at any time, you know, now there's this
Speaker 7: unconscious fear. She could go till it's resolved and she's like,
Speaker 7: I choose this, that dream is no longer relevant, right,
Speaker 7: But it really was. We what shifted towards the end
Speaker 7: of relationship. One point, oh is we were like, hey,
Speaker 7: we've done everything, Like we're two pretty self aware people.
Speaker 7: Were were deep in the work. We're seeing lots of
Speaker 7: mentors and therapists, et cetera, just trying to figure this out,
Speaker 7: like we love each other. And I was like, what
Speaker 7: happens if actually what you're thinking you're broken is actually wisdom? Oh,
Speaker 7: Like you're sensing a deeper relational pattern here that needs
Speaker 7: to be resolved, and so you're saying I gotta go.
Speaker 7: And she talks about it. I love the way she
Speaker 7: expresses it. She's like her body was like the somatic canarian.
Speaker 6: The coal mine.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 7: And it it is so true because by then seeing
Speaker 7: that what was coming up for her was actually wisdom,
Speaker 7: we could act upon that, we ended the relationship. Oh yeah,
Speaker 7: and that was It was so beautiful because now instead
Speaker 7: of me being like, it's okay to be in a
Speaker 7: relationship with someone who might go, I was like, no.
Speaker 1: Right, right, that's the that's an act of safety. Right.
Speaker 7: Really, I couldn't feel safe because I didn't trust myself.
Speaker 7: It looked like she wasn't choosing me, but I was
Speaker 7: leaving myself in circumstances with.
Speaker 6: An ambibiuent person. So like, how could I not have
Speaker 6: anxiety gut stuff?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 6: Like it's I'm thinking it's her and then I get
Speaker 6: to make it her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so in relationships, it's we're so quick to
Speaker 1: think that the other person is the one who needs
Speaker 1: to change, right when we're the ones who needs to change.
Speaker 7: And by a lot of times that change means leave
Speaker 7: the relationship right and and change how we orient to
Speaker 7: someone not changing. Yeah, right, Like that's the big shift.
Speaker 7: It can be a massive shift when as you're saying, oh,
Speaker 7: it's what's my side of the street. Like every relational
Speaker 7: dynamic we're in, we're in. We are the common denominator
Speaker 7: in all our relationship outcomes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and even if the other person does need to change,
Speaker 2: you cannot. That's work they have to do on their
Speaker 2: own time. It's only like I'm like, you have control
Speaker 2: of your own actions to work on that. People are
Speaker 2: so obsessed with other people's or their friend's friends. Like
Speaker 2: there's so many people who write in and they're like,
Speaker 2: my friend is in this relationship.
Speaker 1: I go, you have too much. You have too much
Speaker 1: time on your right unless they're in imminent danger, right,
Speaker 1: you probably have some stuff to work on that you
Speaker 1: can grate on. Yeah, it's so much easier to have
Speaker 1: your intenn's pointed out word than then word.
Speaker 7: Well, isn't that again, Like you're you're putting your attention
Speaker 7: and your life force into trying to resolve other people's conflict. Sure,
Speaker 7: there's more codependency, it's like stay in your lane.
Speaker 1: Do you think how much codependency do you think is
Speaker 1: from a person's subconscious desire to fix their own dynamic
Speaker 1: with a parent? Because that fuel you're blind, like you
Speaker 1: have that fuel, it gives you such tunnel vision that
Speaker 1: all you like because I've experienced that. I've been on
Speaker 1: the rocket of that and it's like nothing else exists
Speaker 1: except this goal. It's wild, never focused on something so
Speaker 1: much in my life, very unhealthy.
Speaker 7: Well, it makes sense because you think it's the unresolved
Speaker 7: need of the child. So the we usually orient a
Speaker 7: relationship from the place of needing to resolve that unconsciously.
Speaker 7: So the relationships, as you know, we draw into our
Speaker 7: lives are usually re wounding us in a way that
Speaker 7: is familiar, and usually with a parent, and usually the
Speaker 7: parent that we sort of experience the most challenged with.
Speaker 7: I'd say it's it's unfortunately usually our mother, because that's
Speaker 7: where we learn secure, attachment, attainment, all the things. So
Speaker 7: you know, it's I would say almost all codependency is
Speaker 7: rooted in our childhood dynamic, but I'd say culture moves
Speaker 7: in there.
Speaker 6: You also look at what do movies tell us.
Speaker 7: The stories are like, be a woman sitting in the
Speaker 7: top of a building who needs to be saved, like
Speaker 7: the top of a castle.
Speaker 6: And then the man needs to be the one who
Speaker 6: goes and fixes it.
Speaker 2: And movies fuck me up. Everyone's talking about child to trauma.
Speaker 2: Go that's movies for me, one hundred percent, not parent stuff.
Speaker 2: It's more like movies also presented a much more exciting
Speaker 2: existence because in a movie, it doesn't show you. You're
Speaker 2: not looking at the mundane parts of life. You're only
Speaker 2: seeing the It's a highlights reel, right, It's like Instagram
Speaker 2: before Instagram existed.
Speaker 1: So I'm like, oh, you guys want to talk about trauma,
Speaker 1: Let's talk about how exciting and thrilling movies are. I Mean,
Speaker 1: a big question that I ask like all the time
Speaker 1: on this podcast is like do I even have a soulmate?
Speaker 1: Because like we're sold this idea that like everyone does
Speaker 1: and then you go, all right, well it's been like
Speaker 1: thirty eight years, Like what's happening here?
Speaker 2: You know, It's like it feels like something that you're old,
Speaker 2: the same way I feel about tits, Like I didn't
Speaker 2: get those either. You know, there's like a long list
Speaker 2: of things that I was like, why really I deserve
Speaker 2: a refund?
Speaker 7: Well, the the idea that we have a soulmate, I
Speaker 7: think it's just so limiting, you know. I know people
Speaker 7: who are in some toxic relational dynamics that the yeah,
Speaker 7: and they'll say there's this one I can think of
Speaker 7: where they're like, he's my twin flame.
Speaker 1: Flame red flag.
Speaker 7: Well, and to me, it's like, soulmate doesn't mean because
Speaker 7: I think we have many. I think that's just a
Speaker 7: much easier they could be. It could be a dog,
Speaker 7: it could be a person, right, and and they're really
Speaker 7: people who wake us up to our patterns, you know.
Speaker 7: But yeah, to think that your soulmate you have to
Speaker 7: work it out with that is the illusion. Maybe the
Speaker 7: lesson from the soulmate is that you actually need to
Speaker 7: choose yourself and not you know, and then you put
Speaker 7: yourself on the path to somebody who's who You're not
Speaker 7: trying to resolve childhood stuff with anymore, you know, And
Speaker 7: that we usually orient to our relationships from place of wounding,
Speaker 7: seeking them to be healed, and we do that in
Speaker 7: our life. Like, think about what brings us to personal growth.
Speaker 7: It's usually the idea that something wrong with us. Yeah,
Speaker 7: but at some point in our life we can't orient
Speaker 7: to the world from that place anymore.
Speaker 6: It has to be there's something right with me.
Speaker 7: These challenges that I'm having are no longer evidence of
Speaker 7: my lack of or my inadequacy.
Speaker 6: They're actually evidence that I'm learning.
Speaker 1: Oh, I like that reframe. It's all about reframing you something.
Speaker 1: And it's like, there was this quote the other day
Speaker 1: from this author that I'm reading, and he said anger
Speaker 1: is the ego substitute for courage, and I'm like, God damn,
Speaker 1: that makes me actually not want to have road rage
Speaker 1: because I have that road rage and I'm like, now
Speaker 1: I do not want to indulge in that getting off
Speaker 1: on the anger thing. Because it's just like thinking of
Speaker 1: it as a substitute for courage. So that's so. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the reframing is huge. I imagine there was a lot
Speaker 1: of reframing when you got back together with your now wife.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: How long was the break?
Speaker 6: Ten months?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 6: Ten months?
Speaker 1: Did you talk a lot?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 7: No, no time, especially right away. I was like, no
Speaker 7: communication for three months, and then we came back together,
Speaker 7: had dinner, and then we were like no, not aligned. Yeah,
Speaker 7: and then yeah, we came back again. And so it
Speaker 7: broke up into September, and I think it was April
Speaker 7: or something like that May the following year that we
Speaker 7: actually were like okay. She actually sent me a message
Speaker 7: and was like, I'd like to chat and like catch up,
Speaker 7: and you know, I'm interested in sharing with you some
Speaker 7: of the things I've learned. And we had a coffee
Speaker 7: and she was like, I'm ready to choose this. Oh,
Speaker 7: I'm ready to have kids, I'm ready to do those things.
Speaker 7: Oh wow with you, But I'm not ready to just
Speaker 7: jump into that as a commitment.
Speaker 6: I'd like to explore that with you. I'd like.
Speaker 7: So we created what we called a dating container. It
Speaker 7: was like and you know, in Stan Tacken's work. He's
Speaker 7: a famous psychotherapist. He talks about how the reason that
Speaker 7: relatesh ships end is because they fail to create clear
Speaker 7: agreements at the start. Yeah, so our container was just
Speaker 7: very clear agreements, like we we weren't seeing other people,
Speaker 7: we were going to check in all the time.
Speaker 1: Everybody's always so scared to ask, Like, so we can
Speaker 1: be monogamous like until it gets too late. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 7: You can't create emotional safety if you're directing your relational
Speaker 7: energy into a person who is directing it into multiple people.
Speaker 6: It's impossible.
Speaker 2: And see, I'm glad you said that because these people
Speaker 2: who are starting open like the starting what like a
Speaker 2: primary relationship, but keeping it open at the start, I
Speaker 2: just think it is a real big mistake.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Like I respect everyone's relational choice. I just I
Speaker 7: just think either.
Speaker 1: I just think, but I'm happy that you do. That's
Speaker 1: that's why that you're in the studio with us.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I don't want to.
Speaker 7: I do think that polyamory is often the changing of
Speaker 7: a relational dynamic that we probably want to end or
Speaker 7: don't know how to do the work within. And that's
Speaker 7: not always true, but I think that's often true. It's
Speaker 7: like we're creating safety nets, yeah, that are protecting us
Speaker 7: from really going deeper with one person.
Speaker 2: It's like it to me, like polyamory to me is
Speaker 2: like a lot of a lot of people. Also is
Speaker 2: my issue is like that they're calling something polyamory that
Speaker 2: is not they're They're just calling the ability to constantly
Speaker 2: fuck around pomory and memory is extremely complex. And I
Speaker 2: know maybe one person who I really feel to be polyamorous.
Speaker 2: And this is a person who has, like in a
Speaker 2: beautiful way, devoted their life to love.
Speaker 1: Nothing I want a part of. But like, goddamn, does
Speaker 1: this person spend a lot of time on relationships and
Speaker 1: love and caring for the people in their life?
Speaker 6: I mean you have to when you have a lot
Speaker 6: of relationships. How do people have our time? I have
Speaker 6: one wife?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine having a bun yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's wild. Yeah. What other agreements were in your dating container? Yeah?
Speaker 7: So I was just reading the audible for our book
Speaker 7: and I laughed because one of the agreements was not
Speaker 7: to have penetrative sex. So I had to say penetrative
Speaker 7: of penetrative yeah, And I was like, I feel like
Speaker 7: the mark, I feel like I'm like in health classes
Speaker 7: or something so clinical. It really felt I always laugh
Speaker 7: whenever I say it. But so we didn't have sex,
Speaker 7: But did you get a finger in?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 6: We did all that. It was actually really fun.
Speaker 1: Were you doing insertions? Okay? Months fun to put a
Speaker 1: little like because then people just jump in physically like
Speaker 1: people just jump in right away, and it's like, man,
Speaker 1: you really miss that out on the making out, on
Speaker 1: the grabbing, the boobs, over the shirt, the fingering, you know,
Speaker 1: all that fun stuff. A good hand job, Yeah, you
Speaker 1: know what is a good hand job?
Speaker 6: Mark, I think it's a two hand job really more attention.
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, I feel like my I like doing it
Speaker 1: with one. The rhythm is hard with two interesting, okay.
Speaker 7: Yeah yeah, it's like your stomach and you know yeah yeah.
Speaker 6: That was another agreement.
Speaker 7: Which I really resisted that one at first. No penetrative act.
Speaker 7: It's a beautiful I've match practice. The audible person's like,
Speaker 7: what penetrative? Yeah, because I'm more like what we would
Speaker 7: think of as the woman in the relationship. As soon
Speaker 7: as I have a connection with someone, I'm like marriage
Speaker 7: the brain and girlfriend. That's that not like no joke
Speaker 7: for sure, And what I found that did for me
Speaker 7: was the container made it so.
Speaker 1: The relationship could not accelerate.
Speaker 7: So even if I was like, you know, a month
Speaker 7: and oh we're doing good, like we're labeling like we're
Speaker 7: good now, and it was like, that's not part of
Speaker 7: the agreement. And what I noticed was that I wasn't
Speaker 7: ready to call it a yes yet, but I wanted
Speaker 7: it to be a yes, so I felt more secure.
Speaker 6: Does that make sense?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 7: And that was part of the me being with someone
Speaker 7: who couldn't fully choose the relationship was that I had
Speaker 7: already bypassed the sense that why would you ever put
Speaker 7: yourself in a relationship with someone who can't fully choose it.
Speaker 7: That makes no sense, but it means that somewhere when
Speaker 7: I was young, I learned that it was okay to
Speaker 7: not feel fully chosen and that became just normal. So
Speaker 7: my nervous system not knowing where I fit was actually familiar.
Speaker 7: And what that three month container and also our breakup
Speaker 7: did for me was recognize what a no is. And
Speaker 7: I was working with this client recently and I was
Speaker 7: talking to her. She had like a lot of guys
Speaker 7: who were her friend who wanted more, and then she
Speaker 7: was friends with guys she wanted more from. And I said, like,
Speaker 7: isn't this interesting that the thing you're doing to these
Speaker 7: men who want more and you know and then you
Speaker 7: like source stuff from them, you're also in the same
Speaker 7: circumstance with someone else. And I said, so till you
Speaker 7: can actually get very clear on what a no is
Speaker 7: in your life, You're yes, actually isn't a real yes, right,
Speaker 7: you know, because your yes still comes with small print.
Speaker 7: It's like, I'm yes on the condition. So if I
Speaker 7: can't say this is definitely not a fit for you,
Speaker 7: but if it's not a fit for you, it's not
Speaker 7: a fit for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: So, like our other agreement, coming back together was a
Speaker 7: fierce dedication to the truth, the truth ahead of anything.
Speaker 7: This working out This not because we realized through working
Speaker 7: with thousands of people and just all the experiences we'd
Speaker 7: had personally, was that the truth is ultimately what deepens
Speaker 7: trust and intimacy. We grow up in families where the
Speaker 7: family create, everyone has a role, where we don't talk
Speaker 7: about dad's alcoholism or mom's narcissism or whatever it is,
Speaker 7: right right and so and so we're like bringing pad.
Speaker 1: The lies in all of your other relationships going forward? Right,
Speaker 1: Why don't nothing to see here?
Speaker 6: That's why I'm like, fuck that, Yeah, Like I don't
Speaker 6: want relationships like that.
Speaker 1: Can you recall the truth? Can you recall something that
Speaker 1: either you said to her or she said to you
Speaker 1: that you were like, ooh, okay, that's the truth. Yep,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to take a break and cry real quick.
Speaker 7: I mean a few One that comes to mind was
Speaker 7: in our previous relationship, and then one when we got
Speaker 7: back together. One in our previous relationship was she was coming.
Speaker 7: So this was like as we were about to meet again.
Speaker 7: She was not living in Vancouver at the time, and
Speaker 7: I said, well, you know what, I'll pay for your flight,
Speaker 7: like come visit. And as soon as I said it,
Speaker 7: this was wild. I could hear this voice inside me
Speaker 7: that was like, if you pay for her flight, you've
Speaker 7: got her. And I didn't notice that really, like I
Speaker 7: noticed it, but I was like, nah, whatever. And then
Speaker 7: when she came to Vancouver. I don't think I ended
Speaker 7: up paying for her flight. But when she came to Vancouver,
Speaker 7: she was like that didn't feel clean, and I was like,
Speaker 7: what do you mean, And she's like, I'm just wondering
Speaker 7: what's wrong with me that I couldn't receive your generosity
Speaker 7: to pay for the flight?
Speaker 1: Oh okay, that's an interesting way to say that.
Speaker 7: And I said, actually, I feel a lot of shame
Speaker 7: saying this, but I think what you were onto is
Speaker 7: that I had this like unconscious sense that if I
Speaker 7: paid for it, I had power.
Speaker 1: Over you manipulated.
Speaker 7: And then I was like, so so when I shared
Speaker 7: with her that, she started crying because she immediately thought
Speaker 7: there was something wrong with her that she couldn't receive
Speaker 7: my generosity, right.
Speaker 1: Jeez, and you were you were having a whole other dynamic.
Speaker 7: I was going on to manipulate and her body, which
Speaker 7: I think women, but I think people, but especially women
Speaker 7: have been taught to bypass that sense and then think
Speaker 7: because think about it, ends I've done a.
Speaker 1: Lot because there's like statistics of like when people don't
Speaker 1: women don't follow their gut because out of basically.
Speaker 2: Politeness A lot of time, like walking on the other
Speaker 2: side of the street when they feel safe, when someone's
Speaker 2: on the like following them or something, they end up
Speaker 2: literally dead.
Speaker 6: Right, And you think, I wonder how they do that.
Speaker 6: Research did you or did you not follow your guys?
Speaker 1: The street and you just did it, mam ma'am below.
Speaker 6: Yeah, she's choice, she attacked.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 7: The with What I found interesting about that was that
Speaker 7: even you know, call it the patriarchal sort of training,
Speaker 7: that I'm fine and I was just being generous. And
Speaker 7: so we in our book go through these what we
Speaker 7: call codependent hooks and their unconscious ways that we hook
Speaker 7: into people's energy so that we can keep them close.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, probably that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, I started to realize how much I
Speaker 7: did it, and that so I had to really I
Speaker 7: had to be with the shame that I had been
Speaker 7: doing this my whole life, using charm, using you know, humor,
Speaker 7: using everything to like try to bring someone close, intuiting
Speaker 7: their needs yea, you know, but leaving my own center.
Speaker 7: Like if I have to pay for someone to keep
Speaker 7: someone close, that's not security, right right, right right, It's
Speaker 7: meeting a need, yes exactly. But think about relational dynamics.
Speaker 7: They are fueled by that power dynamic.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, the cat and schame of just even
Speaker 1: like getting together in the first place, and the attraction.
Speaker 1: It's like, don't call them back right away, don't text
Speaker 1: her immediately after the you know, and it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I mean just the dance is kind of fun, but
Speaker 1: then when the game playing extends into what are we
Speaker 1: it's like this is not enjoyable.
Speaker 6: Right, right?
Speaker 7: And it's crazy to me that we're so worried about
Speaker 7: asking someone if you know, let's say we want to
Speaker 7: not see other people because you can sense that you
Speaker 7: want to invest more and you want more safety emotionally,
Speaker 7: that we're actually afraid to have that conversation because it
Speaker 7: might push our soulmate away.
Speaker 1: But if they're their soul mat away and it'll filter.
Speaker 6: Them, right, you want to filter out the people who.
Speaker 1: Don't want it, right.
Speaker 6: It's such a mind fuck.
Speaker 1: Well, there's this thing with romantic relationships, especially if you've
Speaker 1: had any sort of like trauma of any kind in childhood,
Speaker 1: which most people have, where it's like, man, if I
Speaker 1: lose this, I'll never get this feeling again. And that
Speaker 1: is a really big selling point to cling.
Speaker 6: It really is.
Speaker 7: And I always think, like the the universe God, your
Speaker 7: experience doesn't matter. Whatever words you use will remove people
Speaker 7: from your life who you place your value in having.
Speaker 7: Sure absolutely to remind you that your value doesn't live
Speaker 7: in having them. So if you're if you lose your
Speaker 7: relationship and your sense of self is in your relationship status,
Speaker 7: which I think as a culture we celebrate that. Oh yes,
Speaker 7: basically because if you're single, people go like, oh, why
Speaker 7: are you still single? Like you have an ailment.
Speaker 5: Oh.
Speaker 1: I was literally just talking about those a couple of
Speaker 1: months ago because I was like, I actually like fucking
Speaker 1: hate having a boyfriend, and anytime I had one, it
Speaker 1: was just like a strategic move to like have my
Speaker 1: like like to peer to others like as it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I have everything, so stop asking me about it.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't like having it. So even if
Speaker 2: that appears lower value or like.
Speaker 1: Losing to you, I'm winning because I don't want to
Speaker 1: have a boyfriend because it sucks.
Speaker 6: Like having one, because it is a sense of going validation.
Speaker 1: Just having one in general. Period hard stop. But yeah,
Speaker 1: do you think having a boyfriend suck?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 6: I mean most because the boyfriends suck.
Speaker 1: I it's there's just I don't I guess I need
Speaker 1: to create some things that maybe I need. That's what
Speaker 1: it always seems like. I don't.
Speaker 2: There's nothing I really need. So then you know the
Speaker 2: boyfriend's there and he's like what's my job? And I'm like,
Speaker 2: just be cool and hang out and eat snacks, and
Speaker 2: they seem to want like more of a job, you know,
Speaker 2: And so then I just have someone in my space
Speaker 2: who's annoying me.
Speaker 7: Well, you know, the idea that you need to have
Speaker 7: a need for them to be in your life, right
Speaker 7: is again, like that's what.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to tell them. I go, you don't. You don't.
Speaker 1: There's not a job. This is like a luxury. It's
Speaker 1: a relationship. Should be a cherry on to an already
Speaker 1: great life.
Speaker 6: You've agreed because.
Speaker 1: Yourself, I don't. I certainly don't want another job, Like
Speaker 1: I don't want girlfriends to feel like an occupation. I
Speaker 1: have an occupation, right it comed Yeah, I don't need enough.
Speaker 1: I don't need a second one.
Speaker 7: Well, I think when when we say that to someone,
Speaker 7: especially for a man who doesn't feel like they have
Speaker 7: a place, because I think there's a that idea of
Speaker 7: I don't need a man, which you know, I think
Speaker 7: is really sourced from the pain of the real.
Speaker 1: Of men sucking. No.
Speaker 7: But truthfully, like the relational dynamics that were abusive, that
Speaker 7: were financially abusive, we you know, I'm forty five. So
Speaker 7: I look up my I look at society when I
Speaker 7: grew up, and that was really when divorce really increased,
Speaker 7: especially in nineteen eighty six in the US, because that's
Speaker 7: when separation went from three years to one year. So
Speaker 7: all of a sudden, there was this huge wave of
Speaker 7: women especially who were like, well, three years is a
Speaker 7: lot to be separated before a divorce. I could do
Speaker 7: one year. So divorce actually skyrocketed in eighty six. It
Speaker 7: originally skyrocketed with I mean, you had this sexual revolution,
Speaker 7: you had the feminist revolution, so you had all these
Speaker 7: movements at the exact same time that the Divorce Act
Speaker 7: went in, and that was the first wave, but then
Speaker 7: this was the second wave. And so I think, what
Speaker 7: we're we're healing is this residue from relational dynamics that
Speaker 7: especially occurred in our own parents and maybe for some
Speaker 7: younger people now today their grandparents, where the woman did
Speaker 7: not have autonomy sovereignty.
Speaker 6: Because if you think about it.
Speaker 7: If you're if you depend on your relationship for financial security,
Speaker 7: that means you depend on your relationship for your safety.
Speaker 7: So that means if you are to rock the boat,
Speaker 7: you rock.
Speaker 1: Your survival form feels a childhood part two, you know,
Speaker 1: because it's like the same You're like, this is just
Speaker 1: the same dynamic that you know you have when you're a.
Speaker 7: Child, right, And so it's like, how as because that
Speaker 7: power dynamic can exist, right, Like, let's say I was
Speaker 7: dating a woman who was the breadwinner. The power dynamic
Speaker 7: will exist if she's paying more things. So we're not
Speaker 7: saying that's wrong. But in the book, what we say
Speaker 7: is bring forward what are the implicit contracts of power
Speaker 7: dynamic so that we can if I'm paying, if she's paying,
Speaker 7: how does that make me feel?
Speaker 6: What does that make me?
Speaker 7: Not talk about because you know, Harriet Lerner talks about
Speaker 7: this like she's the best.
Speaker 6: And she was saying that because I said to her,
Speaker 6: why do more women?
Speaker 7: I got eighty five percent of my following as women,
Speaker 7: And I was like, why do more.
Speaker 6: Women consume relational content?
Speaker 7: And she said, because the subordinate group always needs to
Speaker 7: learn the needs and nuances of the dominant group for survival,
Speaker 7: So like women need to learn how to be emotional
Speaker 7: ninjas so they don't die. And I was like, wow,
Speaker 7: that's really interesting. And so we think about like what
Speaker 7: you were saying about not wanting a boyfriend who's a
Speaker 7: project like where they need to have something to do,
Speaker 7: And I think about how for a lot of men,
Speaker 7: our value is in the doing. It's in like providing,
Speaker 7: oh for sure. So it's like, if I'm not providing
Speaker 7: money or rent or food or whatever it is, how
Speaker 7: else can I be needed? And what we equate the
Speaker 7: rebellion from these self abandoning relationships where women didn't have voices,
Speaker 7: and that could be true of other dynamics. It's like
Speaker 7: the response is usually I don't need anybody, right, And
Speaker 7: we're saying it's actually super healthy to be needed and need.
Speaker 7: It's just that we don't trust when we need someone
Speaker 7: because it's like when someone's afraid of commitment, I would say,
Speaker 7: you're not afraid of commitment, you're afraid of what commitment
Speaker 7: leads to.
Speaker 6: You already have a story. You don't trust yourself, you
Speaker 6: don't trust others.
Speaker 7: So it's like, what we really want to look at
Speaker 7: is one type of what type of people are we
Speaker 7: drawing into our lives, and can we actually offer vulnerabilities
Speaker 7: and needs that they could attend to that are not
Speaker 7: financially based, that are not a problem, like you're not
Speaker 7: fixing something, but you're actually, you know, maybe rubbing my.
Speaker 1: Feet or like just being there for the person, right
Speaker 1: and checking in.
Speaker 7: And like my wife, she whenever she opens a jar,
Speaker 7: she's like, oh, can you open this? And I'm like,
Speaker 7: I know she can open jars, but I'm in charge
Speaker 7: of her access to peanut butter. That is, I'll take it, right.
Speaker 2: See, I was actually gonna bring up something very similar
Speaker 2: because like a lot of women's actual like have have
Speaker 2: recommended me, like my female friends have like basically recommended
Speaker 2: like creating jobs that I can do myself to make
Speaker 2: the men in my life feel needed.
Speaker 1: And while I I'm not going to cause play like
Speaker 1: it's ridiculous to me that says the man's self worse's
Speaker 1: wrapped up in providing providing a thing, of course.
Speaker 7: And then and then the next part of this thought,
Speaker 7: which I think is just maybe what you're saying is, well,
Speaker 7: then it's just more placating to men, right. So imagine
Speaker 7: if instead of that we oriented to it from actually
Speaker 7: not trying to carry everything ourselves, right, Because the opposite.
Speaker 6: Of a dependent is an independent.
Speaker 7: And so yeah, I mean you see this politically too,
Speaker 7: It's like collectivism versus individuated. It's like relationships either we
Speaker 7: either abandon relationship for ourselves or abandon ourselves for a relationship.
Speaker 7: And I'm saying, how do you be a self and
Speaker 7: be with another? And where the intention not cause playing
Speaker 7: because I agree with you, like not pretending I have
Speaker 7: I need to be saved in.
Speaker 6: A castle now it's so fake, it's bullshit.
Speaker 7: So instead it's like, what are things that I carry
Speaker 7: that I actually am so used to carrying on my
Speaker 7: own that I can now trust someone else to support
Speaker 7: me with which I'm guilty of this. I'm the like
Speaker 7: I got everything and then I'm like, oh, like buried.
Speaker 3: Talk to me.
Speaker 1: I'm busy, and you're like, Jesus Christ, that's it.
Speaker 7: And that's I mean, that's self abandonment, that's codependency, that's it.
Speaker 6: It's like, I'm going to do everything, so.
Speaker 1: How do you like? I know, one of the things
Speaker 1: I was super codependent, and I'm in a relationship now
Speaker 1: that started off super like toxic dynamic because I was
Speaker 1: going after somebody who was like no, I'm like but yeah,
Speaker 1: and then we are in a really healthy, loving, beautiful relationship.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I with trick that
Speaker 1: I used was like, if this relationship ends, it's okay,
Speaker 1: You'll be fine, You'll be the same person you were,
Speaker 1: and like just reminding myself of that because I think
Speaker 1: back to my previous relationships and it was this thing
Speaker 1: of like what will I do if this if this
Speaker 1: world that we've built in, the safety nest that I've
Speaker 1: built in this relationship goes away, Like I'll die and
Speaker 1: it's like oof. So just reminding yourself being comfortable with uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: you know, uncomfortable outcomes.
Speaker 6: I think that's essential. It's like you're still a self
Speaker 6: regardless of your relationship.
Speaker 3: Step.
Speaker 7: Yeah, And that was the same for me, you know,
Speaker 7: formally in breakups, I was like, you know, I would
Speaker 7: ruminate and be like, oh my god, I miss I
Speaker 7: need them back. But it was it wasn't that. It
Speaker 7: was that I needed to finally stand on my own
Speaker 7: two feet and build a life that was truly about
Speaker 7: cultivating the most powerful version of me, you know, the
Speaker 7: most stepping into my fullest purpose, my potential, and not
Speaker 7: sourcing that from my relationship. I think for a lot
Speaker 7: of us, our relationships become our lives and then we
Speaker 7: lose them and we lose everything.
Speaker 1: Well, it's you know, it's so tricky when you get in,
Speaker 1: when you enter, when you fall in love with somebody,
Speaker 1: the chemicals that happen in your body, The sky is bluer,
Speaker 1: the birds are chirping louder every even if you're having
Speaker 1: a bad day. You don't give a fuck, and like that,
Speaker 1: that way of living and that kind of feeling. It's like,
Speaker 1: who wouldn't want that? All right the time?
Speaker 6: And there's drugs trying to get that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when and when it feels like it's being
Speaker 1: compromised or maybe it's not leading, and you're like, whoa,
Speaker 1: what the fuck? And we act like heroin addicts, it's like,
Speaker 1: that's that's tricky. The feelings that happen when you first
Speaker 1: start a relationship or not misleading, but they make it difficult.
Speaker 7: Yeah. I remember it was Ramdas who said that we
Speaker 7: get lost in the idea of the object of love,
Speaker 7: like we confuse falling in life with being in love,
Speaker 7: and huh, yeah, I really love it when I heard that,
Speaker 7: because it just reminded me so many times I've been
Speaker 7: in the honeymoon phase. And what I love what rom
Speaker 7: DAWs talked about is that the experience let's say it's
Speaker 7: meditation or drugs or LSD or mushrooms or love. We
Speaker 7: think that that experience is only accessed through that, right,
Speaker 7: But he's saying what it does is it reminds you
Speaker 7: that it lives within you. So what feeling is in
Speaker 7: your body exactly? So you think the object is what
Speaker 7: provides you love. Like I remember working with this woman
Speaker 7: is like I'm just more funny when I'm in relationships,
Speaker 7: and I was like, well.
Speaker 1: You have that funny in you, girl, exactly.
Speaker 7: But what they just wake up with you is a
Speaker 7: type of joy and access to play, right, And it's like.
Speaker 1: In your house to like, different people bring out different sides.
Speaker 1: I think this goes for for everybody, Like different people
Speaker 1: bring out different sides of you, right, and like a
Speaker 1: romantic partner. But it's like, how do you bring out
Speaker 1: that side? Like some people I'm really attracted to hanging
Speaker 1: out with because I like who I am around them,
Speaker 1: which is a little selfish, but hopefully they like who
Speaker 1: they are around me and we can both be selfish
Speaker 1: about it. But how do you bring that side of
Speaker 1: yourself out by yourself? Man?
Speaker 6: A mystery?
Speaker 2: I was like, that's so funny because like, for me,
Speaker 2: relationship brings out my bitch monster. So I'm like, as
Speaker 2: long as I'm not in a relationship, I'm great.
Speaker 1: Like I'm the best I've ever been.
Speaker 2: Now. I haven't had sex and months, haven't drank, didn't
Speaker 2: do anything really fun, nothing's really going well, you know truly,
Speaker 2: but I feel great like this like birds and chirping
Speaker 2: thing that we're talking about, Like, I feel that now.
Speaker 1: Because you're acting authentic, yeah, to who you are just
Speaker 1: hanging out? Well, I mean I can kind of always
Speaker 1: doing that, but sometimes I.
Speaker 2: Do things that like I just sometimes it's just like,
Speaker 2: really I just need less.
Speaker 7: People in my life. Well, you know, sometimes I found
Speaker 7: for me too. It's like, as you were saying, you're
Speaker 7: around some people who bring you alive. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 7: and I really In the book, we talk about creating
Speaker 7: a container for yourself.
Speaker 6: Which is how do you do that?
Speaker 7: Yeah? Where you actually do not You actually go into
Speaker 7: an intentional space, you know, much like a cocoon where
Speaker 7: you're like the intention of this is to get to
Speaker 7: know myself. Like you think about what you're talking about.
Speaker 7: If we're living from the neck up, we're not in
Speaker 7: contact with what our body is telling us, maybe because
Speaker 7: we had to disassociate and learn to do that as
Speaker 7: a kid. So the container, what we're talking about, is
Speaker 7: really thawing out the nervous system where colors are brighter
Speaker 7: and birds are louder. And what you do what I
Speaker 7: usually recommend to people, which I think is it's funny
Speaker 7: how people respond to it. But you say, like, no
Speaker 7: engagement at all with whatever sex you're attracted to, so
Speaker 7: you actually there's no sexting, no texting, no nothing, and
Speaker 7: you do that for three months and usually people are.
Speaker 1: Like right, right, even a male friend.
Speaker 6: If you're sourcing from them, yes, oh okay.
Speaker 7: So if you know that, you're like you get a buzz,
Speaker 7: like you get affirmation of your hotness, of your so
Speaker 7: I can talk to my brother, you can talk to
Speaker 7: your brother anyone. Dog my dog, Yeah I have an
Speaker 7: ill dog. Yeah, okay, I have to give them away
Speaker 7: from only a you sour from.
Speaker 5: Dogs?
Speaker 1: Are they're so good for your nervous system? Yeah?
Speaker 6: For regulation? Yeah, but yeah, the container.
Speaker 7: I was working with this woman where she was like,
Speaker 7: three months sounds good, and then as it was coming she.
Speaker 6: Was like, I could do a month.
Speaker 7: Yeah, And I'm like, you're negotiating with what's possible for you,
Speaker 7: Like you're already saying I can't do that, but you can,
Speaker 7: and it's actually true you can't.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm giddy at she's just touching all my
Speaker 1: male friends being like sorry, I can't talk for three months.
Speaker 1: Like that sounds.
Speaker 6: Great, sounds like you're really in the cocoon.
Speaker 1: That sounds sick.
Speaker 2: Well, because there men, men drain me in a way
Speaker 2: that women don't. You know, It's like there's a lot
Speaker 2: of more reciprocity and female friendships. My best friend is
Speaker 2: as a man, he's gay, but there's reciprocity there, so
Speaker 2: that's no problem.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think when any relationship lacks reciprocity, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 7: And of course it's like we have to say no,
Speaker 7: we have to request that the relationship becomes balanced yeah
Speaker 7: or no yes, And so it's like, of course, what
Speaker 7: a great model of like why would we invest in
Speaker 7: things that don't invest in us?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 7: But if we're so used to being the one who
Speaker 7: does all that maintain Like I think about the people
Speaker 7: that if you never texted them, they'd never text you, right,
Speaker 7: or like that's.
Speaker 1: Me, I would never text anyone. No one would ever hear.
Speaker 1: I'm guilty of that.
Speaker 7: You probably get a lot of messages I hear people
Speaker 7: who are creators.
Speaker 6: Which there's such a poll.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, I just don't reach out like I always
Speaker 1: respond though, Yeah.
Speaker 6: You do, see I always respond.
Speaker 1: I don't respond.
Speaker 7: I'm a bad Well, actually I'm not a bad texture.
Speaker 7: I just don't like texting.
Speaker 1: I don't either.
Speaker 7: Yes, Like I think about social media and I'm like,
Speaker 7: shit is so heavy. Yes, And it's like, especially if
Speaker 7: you're putting out your creativity into the world, much like
Speaker 7: you guys do in many different ways. Yeah, it's just
Speaker 7: because I don't think you're designed to get that much feedback.
Speaker 1: No, we're not. There's too much stimulus. It's too much,
Speaker 1: too much information. And they're also like, it's really starting
Speaker 1: to depress me walking around New York City. Not that
Speaker 1: I don't do this, because I do, but just you
Speaker 1: look around and there's maybe one hundred people that you
Speaker 1: can physically see in that second, and they're all looking
Speaker 1: at their phones, and you're like, Dude, this isn't good.
Speaker 6: Guys.
Speaker 1: Look up, You're in one of the greatest cities in
Speaker 1: the world. Just fucking look up. Do your email at home?
Speaker 6: Like I had someone almost walk in at Oh.
Speaker 1: That happens all the time.
Speaker 2: I just feel like that people have I don't like
Speaker 2: being accessible twenty four hours a day. That's what really
Speaker 2: bothers me, and I really I remember getting my mom
Speaker 2: wanting me to have a cell phone in high school,
Speaker 2: like for safety, obviously, and I cried and I fought
Speaker 2: her on it. I'm the only kid I've ever heard
Speaker 2: of who've cried not to get a cell phone.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then when I and then when I when I
Speaker 1: was an adult at my first like really really big
Speaker 1: serious job, which was in talent management, my boss gave
Speaker 1: me a BlackBerry for Christmas, obviously so he could reach
Speaker 1: out to me more. And I cried again.
Speaker 6: I remember blacky BT.
Speaker 2: The time I've gotten a fucking device where people can
Speaker 2: access him more.
Speaker 1: My reaction is to cry, and I'm not like a
Speaker 1: big crier, So this is like a big reaction from me. Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Well you think about what your body's actually telling you.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: It is like I think for a lot of us,
Speaker 7: this is me projecting too, is that I didn't know
Speaker 7: how to take all that energy and not take it
Speaker 7: in you know, yeah, lot of ways, because I am
Speaker 7: very sensitive. I'm very empathetic, but I also lacked boundaries
Speaker 7: and energetic boundaries.
Speaker 6: I was watching this I forget his name.
Speaker 7: But I was watching a video the other day about
Speaker 7: creative burnout and they were saying the guy, I think
Speaker 7: he's a professor at Harvard, he was saying that the
Speaker 7: people who naturally are in creative are arts are people
Speaker 7: who overtly self express So burnout is a result of
Speaker 7: actually people who go into it are already biased to
Speaker 7: burn out because of all the emotional processing and expressing.
Speaker 7: And I thought, that's really interesting that we've, like I
Speaker 7: think in my work I really monetized my codependency. I
Speaker 7: was like, oh, I want to help people, I'll just
Speaker 7: create a brand and get paid. And so what had
Speaker 7: to change was that I no longer needed to source
Speaker 7: from it because otherwise, and I think most people in
Speaker 7: caretaking sort of roles coaches, therapists, dieticians, doctors, you know,
Speaker 7: all the name them are oriented their job because as kids,
Speaker 7: they took care of someone, they managed the energetics of
Speaker 7: the home, and so they have a natural skill set
Speaker 7: that's a survival strategy that can become a superpower when
Speaker 7: it's no longer sourcing a need to be needed. So
Speaker 7: even though you're getting paid to help somebody, there's still
Speaker 7: a part of you that needs the validation of the helping.
Speaker 7: So there's still a book into the person you're serving.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, yeah, but it's like helping, helping is it
Speaker 1: one type of energy attached to it. Serving is a
Speaker 1: different type of like serving people is a different type
Speaker 1: like helping implies. I was reading a quote that it's
Speaker 1: like helping imply something is broken or someone is broken.
Speaker 1: The fixing and helping they have they're both negative energies.
Speaker 1: They're they're called they're a little separate fixing and helping.
Speaker 1: But then serving, how could I be of service to you?
Speaker 1: Is like a totally different energy.
Speaker 6: It sounds unconditional. You're right because in that helping.
Speaker 1: Anything return because I don't need you to give me
Speaker 1: something in order for me to go.
Speaker 7: I'm glad I did that right, Right, it's reinforcing the
Speaker 7: other person then has.
Speaker 6: To identify as broken. Yeah, yeah, good point.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I would be curious in stand up comedy, how
Speaker 7: do you, I mean, how do you separate yourself from
Speaker 7: because the feedback also allows you to shape what you create.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but also sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if it doesn't get a laugh, you're like, all right,
Speaker 1: back to the draw. You just take your emotions out
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, you can't wrap yourself worse up in
Speaker 1: how your set was. That took me personally a long time.
Speaker 6: How long does that take?
Speaker 1: You get used to it, because then you see other
Speaker 1: comics do well on stage and then the audience is like,
Speaker 1: we don't like them, or you see a comic that
Speaker 1: you're like, this guy sucks and the audience loves it,
Speaker 1: and you're like, okay, so you can safely take your
Speaker 1: emotions out of how you did.
Speaker 6: It's not it's practice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just witnessing other people like either like have different
Speaker 1: experiences with audiences. For me, that's that's what helps a little.
Speaker 6: Fy it is it different being a woman in comedy?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah for sure. I mean I like it because
Speaker 1: you're in the minority. So there's something unique about you
Speaker 1: right away, which is cool. Not I mean, now there's
Speaker 1: just so many much anymore. Yeah, you go to any
Speaker 1: of the clubs in New York, there's I mean the
Speaker 1: lineup white women really not, that's not but yeah, we
Speaker 1: started it felt like there was some some type of
Speaker 1: unique thing. But yeah, it's not. I mean I think
Speaker 1: with most women it's like you get you'll get a spot,
Speaker 1: maybe sooner than you're ready for it, because the booker
Speaker 1: wants to fuck you. And then if you're the only
Speaker 1: woman on the lineup and you're you're a little bit
Speaker 1: of a weak sauce and everyone's like, well it's women
Speaker 1: aren't fully and it's like, well, no, it's just the book.
Speaker 1: I wanted to fuck her and she any booked her
Speaker 1: and then she said yeah, as young as I know,
Speaker 1: you know, so that happens.
Speaker 2: But I also felt I think you have to be
Speaker 2: like in your material, like there are some things that
Speaker 2: you can see, like a charming man can get away
Speaker 2: with that even no matter how charming you are as
Speaker 2: a woman, like topics that you can't. You have to
Speaker 2: have like more likable, palatable topics.
Speaker 6: And not as crass or not as you can be.
Speaker 2: Crass, but only sexually. So it's just so funny to
Speaker 2: me because people, you know, it's like it's almost like
Speaker 2: a hack complaint at this point, especially online, that women
Speaker 2: comedians talk too much about sex, But like I challenge
Speaker 2: anyone to try and go and talk about something that
Speaker 2: is interesting or high level that not that doesn't have
Speaker 2: to do with sex, but like it's like politically jarring
Speaker 2: or something like that.
Speaker 1: Try and talk about it and see how it goes.
Speaker 1: It's not going to go well, right.
Speaker 2: People are on people expect women to be a certain
Speaker 2: way and want to hear certain things from them, And
Speaker 2: I think, like step one is hearing graphic sex stuff
Speaker 2: from them, But we haven't gotten to step two yet,
Speaker 2: you know, like in the likability category.
Speaker 1: Is that wild?
Speaker 7: Because you think that's very similar to like the rules
Speaker 7: we take on relationally what we expect from women and
Speaker 7: don't do too much too emotional to a survey, right,
Speaker 7: But then we also are like, don't be too sexual,
Speaker 7: but if you're a comic, please talk about sex, because
Speaker 7: that's how that's the acceptable. It's such a mind weird, yeah,
Speaker 7: because it's like, no matter you're not, you can't.
Speaker 6: You can't well when you.
Speaker 1: Stop warning exactly, the only way you win is you
Speaker 1: have to be fiercely authentic to yourself.
Speaker 7: I think it's such a I would saying to you
Speaker 7: guys before we hit record that like what an opportunity
Speaker 7: to both like on a large level, be empathic to
Speaker 7: a space like you have to be receiving feedback constantly.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, and then you have to be shifting delivery constantly,
Speaker 7: so you become a master communicator.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, and you realize, like, wow, saying this word
Speaker 1: in this different of a tone makes the joke completely different.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 7: I find for me too, that humor was always a
Speaker 7: way that I deflected intimacy. But then I also see
Speaker 7: that humor, when.
Speaker 1: Used it can be very vulnerable too, like when you
Speaker 1: were when you're when your partner jokes about something where
Speaker 1: you're like, uh uh, you know, if you had a
Speaker 1: fight and then somebody is willing to like throw the
Speaker 1: first joke in and you're like, that's nice, Okay, we
Speaker 1: can put our armor down, right.
Speaker 7: It's one of the top qualities of successful couples, is humor.
Speaker 1: Oh really that's good.
Speaker 6: Yeah, thank god.
Speaker 1: In the distance, I just we just we just laugh
Speaker 1: until we cry all day. I love it.
Speaker 6: That's so fun.
Speaker 1: Do you get I wanted to ask you if you
Speaker 1: still get triggered by your wife?
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, and.
Speaker 1: What what does that look like? And what do you do? Like,
Speaker 1: what is it like? What something that she does or
Speaker 1: says that triggers you? And then what is what happens
Speaker 1: behind the curtains of your brain of how you get
Speaker 1: out of it.
Speaker 7: Yeah, we talk about triggers in the book. The context
Speaker 7: we also go into is good triggers. So when we
Speaker 7: think about triggers, we often think about you know, like
Speaker 7: one that does for me is my wife giving me feedback.
Speaker 7: That's is that any kind Yeah, any solicitor unsolicited?
Speaker 6: Yeah, because my you want to be perfect.
Speaker 7: Well, I just like, if I'm getting feedback, it means
Speaker 7: I wasn't good.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's the thought. So I I you get butt hurt. Yeah,
Speaker 6: well there's this thought.
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's well, and there's this idea that you're healed
Speaker 7: when the triggers are done. But actually that's not true.
Speaker 7: It's just what we do with triggers that changes. So
Speaker 7: my trigger is just a radar that's saying, hey, we've
Speaker 7: been in this experience before, and last time, you felt
Speaker 7: really bad about your you know, when you were a kid,
Speaker 7: you didn't feel like you were enough. So when I
Speaker 7: get feedback, I love it because I'm like able to
Speaker 7: observe that and then breathe into it and then ask questions.
Speaker 7: Because the antidote to defensiveness is actually curiosity.
Speaker 1: Ooh, I like that. Yeah.
Speaker 7: So if someone if your natural response is to inflame,
Speaker 7: get defensive, make it about the other person, then what
Speaker 7: we actually would say is tell me more about what
Speaker 7: you're saying, or I can see some truth in what
Speaker 7: you're saying.
Speaker 6: And I would say.
Speaker 7: Ninety nine point nine percent of the time, my wife
Speaker 7: is speaking one hundred percent truth, Okay, And I'm curious, yeah,
Speaker 7: because everything she does is with a positive intention of
Speaker 7: like me seeing something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've had to remind myself. I'm like, your partner
Speaker 1: is not against you on your team because I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: you're gonna fuck it. You're gonna fuck me.
Speaker 6: You're gonna fuck me.
Speaker 1: In any minute. It's like, what an exhausting, What an
Speaker 1: exhausting place to be all the time?
Speaker 7: It's absolutely and so that trigger I now am able
Speaker 7: to breathe into it as always ask questions. But most
Speaker 7: of the time, and if not, we are very much
Speaker 7: about repair. So like, if I don't respond, how I
Speaker 7: maybe could have my best I come back and I'm like,
Speaker 7: I'm sorry, I could have done that better. She's really
Speaker 7: I would say, she's usually first to return. She's definitely
Speaker 7: models that better than I do. But that's the thing
Speaker 7: is like the the like one of the principles we
Speaker 7: talk about in the book is is to have positive
Speaker 7: regard for each other and also that if something's coming
Speaker 7: up for one of us, it's coming up for both
Speaker 7: of us.
Speaker 6: We just don't know yet.
Speaker 1: Oh that's interesting.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that we honor whatever is coming up for each
Speaker 7: person as needing.
Speaker 6: To come up for the relationship.
Speaker 1: Huh.
Speaker 7: Yeah, So there's no longer do you want to avoid subjects, right,
Speaker 7: because you realize that the team, right, and the and
Speaker 7: the relationship needs to work with this material right, So
Speaker 7: we actually see that the frictions of our relationship are
Speaker 7: actually allowing us both to grow. And we just had
Speaker 7: a kid, so you know, it's it's like amplified because
Speaker 7: you have less sleep you have and you know my
Speaker 7: that I mentioned stan tecam before he wrote a book
Speaker 7: called The Baby Bomb and he was talking. I interviewed
Speaker 7: him and he said to me that that everything that
Speaker 7: comes up as a new parent is just stuff that
Speaker 7: wasn't resolved yet from prior to being a parent.
Speaker 6: And I was like, oh, beautiful, morse.
Speaker 1: I got to learn more lessons, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 7: The good trigger's part is that we can actually be
Speaker 7: triggered by good stuff like vulnerability, openness, reliability, safety, trust,
Speaker 7: And so it's recognizing that, hey, like we will sabotage
Speaker 7: or push away what we actually long for because the
Speaker 7: last time we were in relationship to that thing, we were
Speaker 7: really hurturt. Yeah, so you know, I always think that
Speaker 7: it's painfully ironic that where the thing we want most wells,
Speaker 7: you know, love is also where the thing we most
Speaker 7: want to avoid lives. And it's almost this strange humor,
Speaker 7: a dark humor, but that requires us to walk towards it,
Speaker 7: to walk towards it, you know. Yeah, there's a mutuality
Speaker 7: to that.
Speaker 2: For feedback, I think a lot of people struggle with that.
Speaker 2: And I hear what you're what you're saying responding with
Speaker 2: curiosity I think is great advice.
Speaker 1: But what do you do with a partner who.
Speaker 2: Is like I think there's a time and a place
Speaker 2: for feedback, And if you're someone who's constantly giving or
Speaker 2: constantly like expected to receive feedback, no one is living
Speaker 2: perfectly at any time, Like, how do you convey to
Speaker 2: someone be like I don't need fucking constant nos, right,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, I think there's a time and
Speaker 2: a space for it. But if someone's that's that's that's
Speaker 2: getting into nagging territory, you know.
Speaker 7: All. Yeah, well that's a great point because there is
Speaker 7: a delineation between criticism and feedback. So a lot of
Speaker 7: people learn to connect through criticism.
Speaker 1: Oh do they mark? They do?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 1: God?
Speaker 7: And like the person you're talking about is like constantly
Speaker 7: giving feedback. What they're really trying to do is connect,
Speaker 7: probably what they learn from a parent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it sucks because it's like the thing that
Speaker 1: you're doing to try to connect makes me want to
Speaker 1: run away and go to the grave without ever seeing.
Speaker 7: You again, right, because it's like all you're doing is
Speaker 7: reminding me that I never do anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 7: So I think one of the parts of that is
Speaker 7: saying like giving that feedback to the person, saying like, hey,
Speaker 7: can you start to connect with me through positive experiences?
Speaker 7: And also can you try to let me win like
Speaker 7: acknowledge things, because a lot of the times we don't
Speaker 7: let our partner win because if they win, then we
Speaker 7: have vulnerability and closeness. If I'm constantly nagging them, then
Speaker 7: I get to be the one who's seeing all that problem,
Speaker 7: so I don't have a problem. So it's the focus
Speaker 7: is on them, and they then are constantly feeling like
Speaker 7: they suck. So it's creating a relational dynamic where I'm
Speaker 7: in power and you're in the problem.
Speaker 2: That's also good because it feels like a lot of
Speaker 2: times I think people feel like when their partner is winning,
Speaker 2: the winning is somehow distancing their partner from that like this,
Speaker 2: this is creating a space because now you you are
Speaker 2: now better and I am worse when in reality, and
Speaker 2: I mean like this is like kind of like the
Speaker 2: anti antithesis of how I think genuinely, but I truly
Speaker 2: do feel like when I'm dating someone you know who's
Speaker 2: I actually like that it's like it's a team effort
Speaker 2: and I really in my soul believe when they win,
Speaker 2: I'm winning, right, And you know, the the reverse has
Speaker 2: been a lot harder to sell though that's just because
Speaker 2: of like that's more like a heterosexual female male dynamic.
Speaker 1: Though with the women winning.
Speaker 7: That's with powerful women, because well, when we're still operating
Speaker 7: on things.
Speaker 6: Like do I text back, do I not do it?
Speaker 7: Call? Sure, we're still thinking about like the upper hand.
Speaker 7: As soon as you exactly, as soon as you're in
Speaker 7: the power dynamic game. You're recognizing that power is somehow
Speaker 7: you're thinking power is finite, right, And what you're saying,
Speaker 7: which I love, is that your partner becoming powerful doesn't
Speaker 7: make you less powerful in unless some way you gain
Speaker 7: power by their smallness.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so it's making a whole it's to me,
Speaker 1: it's I'm just thinking of it like the whole unit
Speaker 1: now has more value.
Speaker 6: Way more like I don't.
Speaker 1: It's yeah, I'm like, how are we not seeing it
Speaker 1: this way?
Speaker 6: Well if men?
Speaker 7: And I think there's pointing to a really important thing
Speaker 7: that men need to learn today, which I think when
Speaker 7: women become powerful sometimes that can be a protective mechanism
Speaker 7: which makes total sense, or retaliation, but it's like can
Speaker 7: they soften and still be met eye to eye? And
Speaker 7: then can men allow a woman to be powerful without
Speaker 7: thinking in some way they don't have control? Remember these
Speaker 7: unconscious hooks I'm talking about. If my woman can pay
Speaker 7: for all her things and take care of herself, who
Speaker 7: am I?
Speaker 6: Oh you're a self without that? So you have to
Speaker 6: grow and learn that.
Speaker 7: And that's that for us men that's in the heterosexual
Speaker 7: dynamic is really important to learn. I mean, these happen
Speaker 7: in any relationship dynamic, these power shifts and like how
Speaker 7: do I use money, how do I use sex?
Speaker 6: How do I use all these things?
Speaker 7: But I think for men especially, it's learning that having
Speaker 7: a powerful woman who got who has full access to
Speaker 7: her voice actually is in service of you if you
Speaker 7: can handle what she's telling you right.
Speaker 2: Well, for sure, nothing's more confident than seeing like a
Speaker 2: guy a guy kind of just like calmly like let
Speaker 2: their baby do their thing. Now you see it, I
Speaker 2: mean obviously like to actually see it.
Speaker 1: You see it.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I add an award show if you actually want
Speaker 2: to like visualize it. But yeah, like I love watching
Speaker 2: that in a celebrity dynamic where there's like maybe like
Speaker 2: a much even you know, this is just a hack
Speaker 2: example at this point, but even with like a travel
Speaker 2: Kelsey and Taylor Swift obviously they're both famous, but Taylor
Speaker 2: Swift is way way more famous. So it's even just
Speaker 2: watch him just kind of like let her exist and
Speaker 2: and do her thing and not try to like out
Speaker 2: tailor her or something.
Speaker 7: It's very and you get smashed by the Swift is
Speaker 7: also you'd become an album, you'd become a top album.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but I mean I just love that because
Speaker 2: I mean, I was I've been thinking also for the
Speaker 2: interview about what you said at the beginning when we're
Speaker 2: talking about codependency, that a codependent person is often not
Speaker 2: the main character in their own story. And I've I've
Speaker 2: described being a heterosexual woman in the world as that.
Speaker 2: So often I feel like we are a supporting.
Speaker 1: Role in our own movie. And and so.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of coming back to that, like
Speaker 2: how can we receive love and then still be the
Speaker 2: star of our own film.
Speaker 1: That's that's the mountain.
Speaker 7: Isn't that the I think we have to live that question,
Speaker 7: you know, because it's something that you're always getting in for.
Speaker 7: And I think there's an important differentiation of because often
Speaker 7: when people start to center themselves in their lives in
Speaker 7: the relationship, who am I?
Speaker 6: What do I want?
Speaker 7: Especially because of relationship dynamics, you'll just see that be
Speaker 7: a more challenging question for a woman to begin to ask,
Speaker 7: and who am I without the validation of a partner
Speaker 7: of being chosen, like your worthiness is innate. But there's
Speaker 7: a line where we'll call that self centeredness. But self
Speaker 7: centeredness is at the cost of relationship. Being a centered
Speaker 7: self is not. It's actually in service of a relationship.
Speaker 7: And that question you're asking is like, how do we
Speaker 7: how do we begin to prioritize ourselves make our lives
Speaker 7: about us? You know, I think about it being like
Speaker 7: life on your terms. But the why is in brackets,
Speaker 7: because if it's in service of you, it's in service
Speaker 7: of me. And where there isn't this, you have to trade.
Speaker 7: And I think that's the delineation also between self and compromise. Yeah, compromise,
Speaker 7: Like let's say my wife needed us to move somewhere
Speaker 7: because she needed to do something for work or and
Speaker 7: that might mean I have to compromise something wherever we are,
Speaker 7: I would we would work together to see, like to
Speaker 7: acknowledge what I might be losing for something for her
Speaker 7: to gain. But it's actually in service of the unit
Speaker 7: to move forward, and so that compromises in service of
Speaker 7: the relationship with the recognition of the lass and the
Speaker 7: recognition of the gain. Self abandonment is often done in silence.
Speaker 7: It often precedes resentment. Resentment is one hundred percent of
Speaker 7: the time, one hundred ninety nine point nine one hundred
Speaker 7: percent of the time because it's a reflection that you're
Speaker 7: not prioritizing yourself in some way.
Speaker 1: And I think we're getting better at relationships now to
Speaker 1: foresee the resentment. Like I've certainly thought this, and I've
Speaker 1: heard I'm hearing people talk about this in relationships. If
Speaker 1: I agree to do this, I will resent you. That's
Speaker 1: it's great thinking ahead, you know.
Speaker 7: Right, right, And if anyone says that to you, you
Speaker 7: should never do it. You should never allow them right
Speaker 7: to do it. Yeah, because resentment, if we're owning our
Speaker 7: side of the street, we might say I really resent you,
Speaker 7: but it's really because I didn't honor me.
Speaker 1: Because I sacrificed something I would didn't want to sacrifice you.
Speaker 7: Right, And I think like one of my most painful
Speaker 7: experiences in my life was a betrayal when I was nineteen.
Speaker 6: Oh I went through I got cheated on.
Speaker 7: Oh And I remember much later processing that experience.
Speaker 6: How much later, like ten years twelve years later?
Speaker 1: Oh you held it in? Oh?
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I never. I never dealt with it. I drank.
Speaker 7: I did everything to avoid confronting that deep pain of
Speaker 7: like when I love people, they lie to me, they
Speaker 7: cheat on me, I lose myself.
Speaker 6: I don't stand for myself.
Speaker 7: But in hindsight, what I saw was that my experience
Speaker 7: of betrayal was actually preceded by me not honoring myself previously.
Speaker 7: And like, long story short, she had gone away to
Speaker 7: school and we had said it's okay to see other people,
Speaker 7: but I didn't see right.
Speaker 1: And so that's the heartbreaking part that was it.
Speaker 7: That was like that moment drew a path to where,
Speaker 7: of course a betrayal was gonna happen because I was
Speaker 7: living a betrayal.
Speaker 1: Right. We get a lot of emails from a lot
Speaker 1: of times women who they'll say, like their boyfriends or
Speaker 1: husbands or something did all these things and they're still
Speaker 1: there and they're so heartbroken and they're focused on the guy.
Speaker 1: But I'm like, I think you're actually heartbroken because you
Speaker 1: allowed yourself to do that. And that's a tough pill,
Speaker 1: my gal.
Speaker 7: You have to come to that truth though, Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 7: you have to because if you can't, you can't change.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that like it's almost like reassuring in a
Speaker 1: way that like the biggest heartache that I've ever experienced
Speaker 1: because I betrayed myself.
Speaker 7: Yeah, same, you know, that's bummer, And usually that can
Speaker 7: be preceded by being a kid who had to betray
Speaker 7: yourself to stay safe. Right, So then we split and
Speaker 7: there is a part of us that needed to say
Speaker 7: the thing, do the thing, access to our power, but
Speaker 7: that had to go silent.
Speaker 6: And we do this in many ways.
Speaker 7: We wear many masks, you know, because as a child
Speaker 7: we learn don't be too funny, don't be too emotional,
Speaker 7: don't be you.
Speaker 6: Know, be seen not heard.
Speaker 7: We have all these different things we're taught from culture
Speaker 7: and family, but then as adults we need access to
Speaker 7: that again.
Speaker 6: And so it is true.
Speaker 7: It is through the radical confrontation with the truth, with reality,
Speaker 7: because if I could be with yes, they did the thing, Yes,
Speaker 7: I stayed in relationship dynamics that led to that thing.
Speaker 7: We often think when we take responsibility for all of
Speaker 7: the experiences that happen to our in our lives, that
Speaker 7: we're negating the experience of being a victim. But you,
Speaker 7: of course can be a victim to circumstances and other
Speaker 7: people's behaviors one hundred percent, but we can't change them.
Speaker 7: So we have to change how we see the story,
Speaker 7: which is if if even though I didn't choose it,
Speaker 7: and I'm not negating the experience of my victimization. How
Speaker 7: is this actually in service of what I need to
Speaker 7: do today, and that that is actually holding the complexity
Speaker 7: of the human experience.
Speaker 6: That's true anyways, Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, but we don't know how to not be the
Speaker 7: victim of something and also be empowered by it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's hard to do because I think the empowered
Speaker 1: it's like, well, say you date narcissist. Yeah, no, I
Speaker 1: don't know the time, Say you date narcissist after narcissis
Speaker 1: and it's like, yes, I am. But at some point
Speaker 1: it's like, all right, that's a clear cut, Like there's
Speaker 1: very clearly personal responsibility to be had here. The common
Speaker 1: denominator is you, right, Like, there's no you can't get
Speaker 1: mad at that because you can't. And I think that
Speaker 1: people also say like or maybe they're scared. At least
Speaker 1: I was at one point of like, well, if I
Speaker 1: take personal responsibility, I don't have to deal with the
Speaker 1: shame of the behavior. And yes, that's true, but like
Speaker 1: that's good.
Speaker 6: That's the kind of shame that changes you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a shame does have a place.
Speaker 6: It does.
Speaker 7: There's a such thing called healthy shame, which is not
Speaker 7: toxic shame, and it's the recognition of the violation of
Speaker 7: our own reality.
Speaker 6: Yeah, our own values.
Speaker 1: The original definition of sin is to go against yourself,
Speaker 1: and then religion was just it was weaponized against Yeah. Right,
Speaker 1: that's a beautiful definition. We have to wrap up. But Eric,
Speaker 1: I didn't know if you wanted to have we usually
Speaker 1: Eric's are our new third mic, and so I didn't
Speaker 1: know what to chime in. I don't know.
Speaker 4: I feel like I just did a lot of learning myself.
Speaker 1: That's what this Love That podcast is all about. Education.
Speaker 4: I don't I don't think I have any questions.
Speaker 6: I feel like, are you opening your heart?
Speaker 1: Yeah? His heart's very open.
Speaker 6: I can.
Speaker 1: All right, well then plug your book mark. Yeah, let's go.
Speaker 1: Where can we find it?
Speaker 5: Man?
Speaker 1: Is it available in.
Speaker 7: It's available in every form, Kindle, audible, Yeah, the audible
Speaker 7: is actually, yeah, all the places wherever you get your books.
Speaker 7: The audio version is has my wife and I having
Speaker 7: conversations after each chapter.
Speaker 1: Oh that's cue.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was fun. That was really fun.
Speaker 1: Bonus.
Speaker 7: Yeah, to be able to give people more insight into
Speaker 7: our own experience and writing it and yeah, it's called
Speaker 7: liberated love, and it's about releasing codependent patterns and creating
Speaker 7: the love and relationship you desire and so everything we
Speaker 7: talked about, we like navigate what shaped you, so your
Speaker 7: relationship blueprint, we go through attachment and attachment theory. One
Speaker 7: thing we do different than a lot of books in
Speaker 7: this space is that we overlay the nervous system in
Speaker 7: this and how important it is, Yeah, so.
Speaker 1: Important because safety is attached to it exactly and it's
Speaker 1: and really the work is incomplete without integration from the
Speaker 1: nervous system.
Speaker 7: And we talk about you know, the breakup or the
Speaker 7: first relationship, the breakup and then how to go back
Speaker 7: together and and it is for single people or people
Speaker 7: in relationship, and it gives you all the tools to
Speaker 7: do all the things we're talking about today.
Speaker 1: Wow. How thanks for having me, Thanks for existing, and
Speaker 1: thanks you for the great voice out there. We really
Speaker 1: appreciate it. We've learned a lot from you.
Speaker 2: Yes, and Liberated Love is out now by the time
Speaker 2: you're listening to this podcast, So thank you so much.
Speaker 2: This has been Guys we Fucked, the anti slat chiming podcast.
Speaker 2: We'll talk to you next Friday. Guys We Fucked is
Speaker 2: presented by Luminary, created and hosted by Karn Fisher and
Speaker 2: Christina Hutchinson. Editing and music coordination by Mike Coscarelli. Theme
Speaker 2: song by Rob Patterson and Jake Cozen.
Speaker 1: Suck my wet ass pussy. Christina sends to cut that before,
Speaker 1: but now it's in airy. Yeah, let's keep it.
Speaker 5: Chris stuck hell hellos thoughts and you give it a
Speaker 5: round high fe comes to the service a thousand degrees.
Speaker 1: No way to let it out, No way.
Speaker 5: You're not broken in the world to think you are
Speaker 5: in the curst, bad for the sun.
Speaker 3: In the hot time, Just how that the will making
Speaker 3: these to be. Don't stop.
Speaker 5: The hot time, I cannoice.
Speaker 3: Think on your lad.
Speaker 5: You don't have to leave thayla An the end, there's
Speaker 5: poorl outside.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of weird and