Speaker 1: Pushkin. This is Talk Easy. I'm San Fragoso. Welcome to
Speaker 1: the show, Nick Offerman. How you doing.
Speaker 2: I'm very well, thank you. I'm glad to be in
Speaker 2: touch with you. I'm a big fan of the podcast,
Speaker 2: and I'm glad to have reason to have your glance
Speaker 2: fall upon me.
Speaker 1: So the reason we are talking is because you're in
Speaker 1: this new movie called Civil War. It's directed by Alex Garland.
Speaker 1: He's made films like Ex Machina, Annihilation. There was a
Speaker 1: TV show you made with them called Devs. You texted
Speaker 1: me out of the blue and started the message Offerman here,
Speaker 1: which is one of my favorite texts to receive. It
Speaker 1: just says Offerman here, and then I'm like, Okay, what's next?
Speaker 1: And what was next in this case was you asking
Speaker 1: me have you seen this movie? Why did you reach
Speaker 1: out and why should people see this movie?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I'm a fan of Talk Easy as
Speaker 2: well as a longtime listener and one time interviewee. One
Speaker 2: nice thing about the podcast age is you find people
Speaker 2: who are having interesting conversations that I find the conversations
Speaker 2: on this show particularly edifying and elucidating, and so I
Speaker 2: just am really interested in the conversations that this film
Speaker 2: is engendering. In a nutshell, it's a movie about a
Speaker 2: fictional American civil war in a fictional America that doesn't
Speaker 2: weigh in in any way on any real life American
Speaker 2: politics or world politics. It's just a government and then
Speaker 2: a rebel faction or two, and there's a civil war
Speaker 2: seen through the eyes of some journalists. And it's been
Speaker 2: the number one movie in America the last two weekends running,
Speaker 2: so it's doing very well. But it also is exciting
Speaker 2: some really emotional responses from otherwise calm, clearheaded people. There
Speaker 2: was an article in The New Yorker yesterday by Richard
Speaker 2: Brody who said that he was ashamed of Alex because
Speaker 2: Alex didn't have his characters whisper things when they took
Speaker 2: photographs as Richard Brody would have preferred. They and a
Speaker 2: whole litany of the ways Richard Brody would have made
Speaker 2: the film in a much more commanding and intelligent and
Speaker 2: effective way.
Speaker 1: The review was oddly paternal.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 2: It was very admonishing, and you know, without disparaging a
Speaker 2: very intelligent writer. That's what I'm fascinated by is this
Speaker 2: sort of embarrassing takes that people are revealing from this
Speaker 2: film because the film doesn't take a stand on the
Speaker 2: current state of American politics or global politics, but instead
Speaker 2: to give us this sort of rich pastiche of a
Speaker 2: novel that also happens to be a gripping action film,
Speaker 2: to make us talk about it, get us excited and say, well,
Speaker 2: that was uncomfortable seeing crimes outside of Pittsburgh. Maybe we
Speaker 2: should consider a different tack in this country.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about it without spoiling the movie. It
Speaker 1: is set in the near future, feels like it could
Speaker 1: be twenty twenty four, some kind of begins in what
Speaker 1: feels like the end of the second act of a
Speaker 1: civil war. We don't know why there's been an uprising.
Speaker 1: We don't know who's responsible for that outside of the President,
Speaker 1: which is the person you play, who is now serving
Speaker 1: his third term and has eliminated the FBI and is
Speaker 1: asking his fellow citizens to come back to the country
Speaker 1: peacefully and that they will accept them with open arms.
Speaker 1: You said that you did not look to Donald Trump
Speaker 1: to play this part. Where did you begin in thinking
Speaker 1: about this character.
Speaker 2: Some reviewers have accused me of aping Joe Biden, and
Speaker 2: some have accused me of nodding towards our disgraced former.
Speaker 1: President, which accusation offended you more?
Speaker 2: Neither of them really offended me. They just make me
Speaker 2: shake my head when you know again, I turned to
Speaker 2: Theodore Roosevelt's wonderful quote about the critic and how I
Speaker 2: would rather get out and be in the arena taking
Speaker 2: a swing at it than judging the swingers.
Speaker 1: So Roosevelt was your chief influence.
Speaker 2: No, son of a bitch, now that I will not
Speaker 2: stand for. It's a funny thing when I get offered
Speaker 2: something and they say we want you to play the plumber.
Speaker 2: You read the thing and it happens in your imagination. Oh,
Speaker 2: I know I am this guy. I know how to
Speaker 2: do this guy, and so I, for one, don't ever
Speaker 2: say I'm going to base this on any attributes.
Speaker 3: Of another person.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: The writer answers all the questions you need answered. So
Speaker 2: I didn't need a lot of backstory or I didn't
Speaker 2: need any like real life correlations for this guy. All
Speaker 2: I needed to know is what we've sort of gone
Speaker 2: over in the story is that there are some fascist
Speaker 2: elements to this guy. And as the film opens, we
Speaker 2: see imagery of America at war, we see America is
Speaker 2: on fire, while the president is standing at his podium
Speaker 2: saying everything is terrific. We're about to take a victory lap.
Speaker 2: This is all really cool, so please come back into
Speaker 2: the fold and so you know, then I get a
Speaker 2: hold of Alex and I say, okay, so correct me
Speaker 2: if I'm wrong. We don't need to know who the
Speaker 2: factions are, We don't need to know anybody's politics. All
Speaker 2: we need to know is this is the state of
Speaker 2: affairs in America, and this is the state of affairs
Speaker 2: with this guy. And my questions were more like how
Speaker 2: much how loud do you want this guy to be?
Speaker 3: Like how much of a.
Speaker 2: Carnival Barker snake oil salesman versus a human being?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: And we sort of aired on the side of sincerity,
Speaker 2: you know, instead of turning it up and being a
Speaker 2: little bit of a showman. We tried to make him human.
Speaker 3: Sow that.
Speaker 2: In the opening of the film, especially, we see him
Speaker 2: kind of rehearsing his speech and going over his phrasing,
Speaker 2: and then we see him delivering the speech at the
Speaker 2: presidential podium on TV as we're so accustomed to seeing.
Speaker 2: And I found it to be a humanizing moment where
Speaker 2: we say, Okay, this is a guy doing it. This
Speaker 2: is a salesman in a particular job, selling us the
Speaker 2: kind of thing we have been sold many times, but
Speaker 2: in a new context.
Speaker 1: You mentioned at the top that there's been some criticism,
Speaker 1: whether it's in the New Yorker or on Twitter, where
Speaker 1: people are going, how come this film is not choosing
Speaker 1: a side? What exactly is it saying about our current
Speaker 1: political moment? But it feels to me in watching the movie,
Speaker 1: and I think this may inspire other people to watch it.
Speaker 1: The politics are very much prologue. Garland has a quote
Speaker 1: in GQ recently where he said, I'm a centrist. When
Speaker 1: I talk about things like left or right, I'm talking
Speaker 1: about things like whether you believe in a free market
Speaker 1: or not. I'm talking about what taxation levels should be
Speaker 1: at I see no reason why, no reason at all,
Speaker 1: why those sorts of definitions need to be defined. People
Speaker 1: need to talk freely and respect each other, and underneath
Speaker 1: this film is a kind of conversational centrism. It's a
Speaker 1: fascinating quote. It feels like an especially British quote because
Speaker 1: we are in these polarized times. And I guess, do
Speaker 1: you worry that making a centrist film that essentially says
Speaker 1: there can be good people on both sides, when in
Speaker 1: this current moment, in twenty twenty four, in our politics,
Speaker 1: there's only one side that says X persons vote should
Speaker 1: not count, or X persons should have a more difficult
Speaker 1: time in voting, or if the results come in and
Speaker 1: they are not favorable to me, I may not accept them.
Speaker 1: I'm all for talking about where and how we can
Speaker 1: come together, But do you worry that a film that
Speaker 1: is this dead and the center in a moment where
Speaker 1: one side is trying to take a bludgeon to our democracy,
Speaker 1: to our constitution, do you worry that it's not doing
Speaker 1: or saying enough.
Speaker 2: I'm starting to suspect that this podcast is not centrist, Nick,
Speaker 2: you listen to the show. The thing I love about
Speaker 2: Alex is he is wonderfully eloquent, but he's an incredibly
Speaker 2: thoughtful artist. And so I'm astonished that even hearing you
Speaker 2: ask this question, like I know you know, I know
Speaker 2: you well enough to agree with you in most things,
Speaker 2: but even having you sort of lay out the term
Speaker 2: centrist positive to me in this way gets my blood going.
Speaker 2: We exist in a time when any of stance, whether
Speaker 2: it be left right or center, brings up emotions and
Speaker 2: vitriol of one sort or another. And so I don't
Speaker 2: see this film as centrist or remotely suggesting a sort
Speaker 2: of reductionist idea of centrism. I e. There's good people
Speaker 2: on both sides. There are good people on both sides,
Speaker 2: and you know I agree with that. I do, and
Speaker 2: so instead I applaud Alex. He's not espousing centrism with
Speaker 2: this film. I think he's espousing neutrality. He's giving it
Speaker 2: to us through the point of view of neutral journalists.
Speaker 2: We see actions by different factions that are despicable, that
Speaker 2: are lawless, that are very upsetting, and I think that
Speaker 2: is his message that in wartime, lawlessness rules the day.
Speaker 2: So I believe the film is being positive as a
Speaker 2: cautionary tale to say, no matter who is saying, what
Speaker 2: about whom or who votes for whom, do we want
Speaker 2: to end up in this situation. That's why I think
Speaker 2: people leave the theater saying that's really irresponsible, that he
Speaker 2: didn't give me something to shake my fist at. I mean,
Speaker 2: we're having this conversation on I don't know day eight
Speaker 2: of Trump's first trial in New York. David Pecker is
Speaker 2: completely just urinating all over Trump's cake by describing in
Speaker 2: detail all of the nefarious practices they got up to
Speaker 2: on behalf of the former guy. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2: The world is upside down, And I think that had
Speaker 2: Alex even begun to suggest anything in either direction in
Speaker 2: this film on behalf of the factions, then it immediately
Speaker 2: becomes a one sided film, even coming in as neutral
Speaker 2: as he did, a lot of pundits and a lot
Speaker 2: of critics are still shaking their fists and saying. There
Speaker 2: is a Fox News headline that said, Kirsten Dunst and
Speaker 2: Nick Offerman on the red carpet of the premiere staunchly
Speaker 2: deny that The Sky is based on Trump. And it's
Speaker 2: easily denied because it's a complete work of fiction and
Speaker 2: we're sort of way above that kind of of tabloid thought.
Speaker 2: But isn't it interesting that.
Speaker 1: That fids Fox News.
Speaker 3: That this fascistic dipshit.
Speaker 2: They're the ones that they're like, how can you deny
Speaker 2: that this is based on Trump?
Speaker 3: Really, you're not giving him any compliments.
Speaker 1: The film has upset both Democrats and Republicans, which tells
Speaker 1: me I think you've done something right.
Speaker 2: I think Alex has done something right, and I think
Speaker 2: the reaction that we're discussing just goes to show he
Speaker 2: sort of hit the nail on the head. And I mean,
Speaker 2: in this modern climate, to sort of run the gauntlet
Speaker 2: to where you're the number one movie in America even
Speaker 2: though people are shaking their fist and saying you didn't
Speaker 2: either defend my opinion or you didn't give me any
Speaker 2: libtard bullshit, you know, to get with what my friends about,
Speaker 2: so we could go out and shoot at a twelve
Speaker 2: pack of some erroneous light beer product.
Speaker 1: It's called bud Light.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 1: I don't know what you do on Friday's Nick, but
Speaker 1: that's what I'm doing. The film has done very well
Speaker 1: at the box office. I'm curious. You saw the film
Speaker 1: in theaters this morning?
Speaker 3: I did.
Speaker 1: How did that feel?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: It's interesting. I saw it last October in a screening
Speaker 2: room by myself, and yeah, I don't know. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm fifty three. I'm a shitting, stumbling human and so
Speaker 2: you know, and I'm also working as an actor, so
Speaker 2: like I have a life full of rejection with like
Speaker 2: many peaks of triumph. Here and there. But nonetheless, when
Speaker 2: I go in to see this film, you know, there
Speaker 2: are things in my life like, well, my knees hurt,
Speaker 2: so probably I'm not going to get to play Superman.
Speaker 2: Maybe I can get cast as old Superman. Anyway, let's
Speaker 2: see what Alex is cooked up and so to then
Speaker 2: you know see and by the way, my analogy when
Speaker 2: I tell people about my role in this film, I
Speaker 2: say that I'm much like Soren, who you don't you
Speaker 2: don't see a lot, but he's foundational to the narrative.
Speaker 2: Nobody's hiking to any mountains without my character. So I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, my journey and I apologize for using that term.
Speaker 3: The last thing.
Speaker 2: Anyone wants to hear is about a fucking actor's journey.
Speaker 2: But my journey has been such it's been a very
Speaker 2: slowly rolling snowball through Chicago theater, through the beginnings of
Speaker 2: TV and film in Los Angeles. And like I got
Speaker 2: my sagcard thirty years ago when I was twenty three,
Speaker 2: and so across those thirty years, I still feel like
Speaker 2: I'm ascending. I still feel like I'm getting to do
Speaker 2: better stuff, work with better you know, on better projects.
Speaker 2: But as I'm you know, stumbling my way forward. To
Speaker 2: see something like this that's so affecting and be a
Speaker 2: small part of it just makes me really grateful, And
Speaker 2: so when I'm along for the ride, it makes me
Speaker 2: well up with emotion.
Speaker 1: You call the film a cautionary tale. Do you think
Speaker 1: it is a clarion call as well? And if so,
Speaker 1: a call to do what.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you read the paper, but there's
Speaker 2: been some talk about politics in this country, especially since
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, and the terrifying and shameful problems.
Speaker 1: Of Thank you you listen to the show, you know,
Speaker 1: I exclusively read Deadline and.
Speaker 2: Variety, So I'll send you a couple of links.
Speaker 1: Please, and some Wendell Berry.
Speaker 2: But there's some bad news. Yeah. The thing that I'm
Speaker 2: driving toward is there's been a lot of talk.
Speaker 1: Usually you call it guff.
Speaker 2: There's been a lot of guff. There's been a lot
Speaker 2: of beef between the Red and the Blue and the
Speaker 2: other splintered factions, and I believe the chasm has not
Speaker 2: grown less. I mean, as a storyteller, Parks and Recreation
Speaker 2: is a great example. I'm glad to be a part
Speaker 2: of that show that was basically a really good hearted
Speaker 2: show about decency and how funny it is trying to
Speaker 2: get anything through a bureaucracy at all, and just a
Speaker 2: lot of human lessons about friendship and character and so
Speaker 2: forth that I think should be appealing to audiences of
Speaker 2: all political stripes. But again, these conversations require nuance. You know,
Speaker 2: I love to work with Ava du Verne, whose stuff
Speaker 2: you know will will be banned in the libraries of
Speaker 2: Florida because she mentions the phrase black people and other
Speaker 2: such social crimes.
Speaker 1: Critical.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I consider that to be a good
Speaker 2: medicinal storytelling that's good hearted for everybody. It's not strident,
Speaker 2: and it's not partisan. It's it's simply telling the truth.
Speaker 2: And so the fact that Alex has created this gripping
Speaker 2: action movie, I mean, first and foremost people should know
Speaker 2: it's a rip roaring road movie that has you on
Speaker 2: the edge of your seat. I mean, I knew what
Speaker 2: was going to happen, and I've seen it twice and
Speaker 2: still is the end credits rolled. I caught myself like
Speaker 2: deep breathing, like oh my, like the end of a
Speaker 2: really long roller coaster.
Speaker 1: I saw it in Imax, and it was all the
Speaker 1: lame criticism cliches of pulse pounding, rip roaring, terrifying. Is
Speaker 1: a terrifying movie, and I think ultimately the reason I'm
Speaker 1: at times frustrated by the movie, deeply moved by the movie,
Speaker 1: all of which I think our good response is to
Speaker 1: have to something that's an interesting piece of art, is
Speaker 1: because the vision it offers us, the window it offers
Speaker 1: us into a near future, regardless of your politics, regardless
Speaker 1: of where you live, who you choose to love, it
Speaker 1: should terrify you.
Speaker 2: I agree, And that and that, you know, brings us
Speaker 2: back to why how is it a cautionary tale? What
Speaker 2: do we want the audience to come away with it?
Speaker 2: And it is to sort of elicit an emotional response.
Speaker 2: That's that to my way of thinking, that says, where
Speaker 2: can we take a left turn? We're barreling toward something
Speaker 2: like this. You know, we're not helping by calling each
Speaker 2: other names and worse, and so how can we continue
Speaker 2: to try to arc our conversations toward decency and away
Speaker 2: from division.
Speaker 1: My favorite piece of writing on the film is this
Speaker 1: piece in Vulture by Bilga Ebery, and he wrote this
Speaker 1: is maybe his best idea and why the film's lack
Speaker 1: of political context feels more pointed than spineless. The concept
Speaker 1: here is to depict Americans acting the way we've seen
Speaker 1: people act in other international conflicts, be it Vietnam or
Speaker 1: Lebanon or the former Yugoslavia, or Iraq or Gaza, or
Speaker 1: the list goes on and on. In that sense, Civil
Speaker 1: War ends up becoming a movie about itself. Beyond the
Speaker 1: plausibility of war in the United States or the tragedy
Speaker 1: of such an eventuality, It's about the way we refuse
Speaker 1: to let images from wars like this get to us.
Speaker 1: It's more of a call for reflection, an attempt to
Speaker 1: put us in the shoes of others, than a warning
Speaker 1: not and it can happen here.
Speaker 3: Movie.
Speaker 1: But here's what it's like.
Speaker 4: Movie.
Speaker 1: It doesn't make us want to feel so much as
Speaker 1: it wants us to ask why we don't feel anything.
Speaker 3: Boom.
Speaker 2: That's fantastic, and that to say that it's that his
Speaker 2: lack of political assignment to the forces is more pointed
Speaker 2: than spineless. That's the So many of the thinkers that
Speaker 2: are conducting in our information streams today and those of
Speaker 2: us that are consuming said information were so in third gear.
Speaker 3: We're so in the.
Speaker 2: Mode of having to pay attention and be vigilant and
Speaker 2: participate in the ongoing conversation that involves a lot of
Speaker 2: these divisive topics, and so when we see something like this,
Speaker 2: it has a lot of triggers that says, you know,
Speaker 2: this should be fuel this should be part of this conversation.
Speaker 2: I'm grateful for that review that that is able to
Speaker 2: calmly say, oh, the way this, this remains in the
Speaker 2: eddy of the river and not in the middle of
Speaker 2: the current, is actually the point and it's and it's
Speaker 2: very effective.
Speaker 1: That last line that was sounding a lot like Wendell
Speaker 1: Berry poem.
Speaker 2: The reason I brought that up is a couple of
Speaker 2: nice articles came out today, one in GQ, one in
Speaker 2: the Washington Post about me, uh and how I seem
Speaker 2: to get cast as conservatives or even you know, the
Speaker 2: rural characters.
Speaker 3: One way or another.
Speaker 1: You're often cast as a Republican avatar, like in the
Speaker 1: Last of Us you play a survivalist toombsday prepper. In
Speaker 1: Ava Duvernet's new film Origin, you're playing a maga hat
Speaker 1: wearing plumber. Of course, Ron Swanson was a was a
Speaker 1: different kind of man, more of a libertarian, and then
Speaker 1: now the fascist president in civil War.
Speaker 3: And it's funny.
Speaker 2: I mean, when I was tickled at these thoughtful writers
Speaker 2: who wanted to sort of look at me through that
Speaker 2: lens because it hadn't occurred to me again just the
Speaker 2: last of us, for example, I never thought about Bill's
Speaker 2: politics as it were. But you're right, you know, standing
Speaker 2: back from it, people see a guy, a doomsday prepper
Speaker 2: who can use a shovel and a shotgun. They don't
Speaker 2: think liberal, even though in the Washington Post I say
Speaker 2: I compare Donald Trump to a pile of dog shit
Speaker 2: that is being sold as pumper nickeled bread. And I know,
Speaker 2: I know that I'm not helping like I know that
Speaker 2: doing that, I'm now participating in the partisan conversation where
Speaker 2: I'm giving, you know, anybody who is voting for that
Speaker 2: guy who somehow now is receiving the pumper nickel messaging
Speaker 2: and not the reality of the dog shit those people
Speaker 2: are saying, Okay, so Offerman is a libtard. You know,
Speaker 2: we should dismiss everything that comes from him, and vice versa.
Speaker 2: And I recognize the problem with that fractionalized messaging. Like
Speaker 2: most of those people, I would like those people, and
Speaker 2: I would like to sit down with them and say,
Speaker 2: I think if you knew the information that you're not getting,
Speaker 2: you'd be pretty embarrassed. And especially if you claim to
Speaker 2: be voting, you know, like based on Christian values, for example,
Speaker 2: I think you'd be pretty embarrassed if you saw what
Speaker 2: it looks like to the rest of the world. We're
Speaker 2: all assholes. That's the thing is, We're all flawed humans.
Speaker 2: We're trying to govern a nation of wealthy burger eating
Speaker 2: truck drivers, and among which I proudly include myself and
Speaker 2: shamefacedly include myself. Like, we're all doing our best in
Speaker 2: this very messy world. But there's a legislation that leans
Speaker 2: much more toward compassion, and then there's legislation that leans
Speaker 2: much more toward bigotry. And so when I get confused,
Speaker 2: I always think of this Wendelberry poem called questionnaire. How
Speaker 2: much poison are you willing to eat for the success
Speaker 2: of the free market and global trade? Please name your
Speaker 2: preferred poisons for the sake of goodness? How much evil
Speaker 2: are you willing to do? Fill in the following blanks
Speaker 2: with the names of your favorite evils and acts of hatred.
Speaker 2: What sacrifices are you prepared to make for culture and civilization?
Speaker 2: Please list the monuments, shrines, and works of art you
Speaker 2: would most willingly destroy in the name of patriotism and
Speaker 2: the flag. How much of our beloved land are you
Speaker 2: willing to desecrate? List in the following spaces the mountains, rivers, towns,
Speaker 2: farms you could most readily do without. State briefly the ideas,
Speaker 2: ideals or hopes, the energy sources, the kinds of security
Speaker 2: for which you would kill a child, Name please, the children.
Speaker 3: Whom you would be willing to kill. That's it.
Speaker 1: About as perfect of a summation of this film as
Speaker 1: you could possibly have delivered. Wow. I love a guest
Speaker 1: that comes in with palms ready to go, Like I
Speaker 1: don't even have to do my normal amount of prodding
Speaker 1: and preparing and setting up clips. You just you come in,
Speaker 1: hot and ready to go. And for that I am
Speaker 1: eternally grateful.
Speaker 3: Well, we're equally grateful.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm a fan, and so please understand that
Speaker 2: I just as you pleasure us all with your homework
Speaker 2: and what you are able to extrapolate from that research.
Speaker 2: I also wanted to bring in. I wanted to pack
Speaker 2: a lunch to share with you as well.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. I thank you for the time, the thoughts,
Speaker 1: the poems, and as always, please text me whenever you
Speaker 1: want to get into it again.
Speaker 3: I sure will.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me, Sam.
Speaker 1: And so with that, after the break the story of
Speaker 1: actor Nick Offerman. Nick Offerman, how are you doing?
Speaker 3: Good? Sam? How you doing?
Speaker 1: The response is quick.
Speaker 2: That's probably the last quick response you'll get from me.
Speaker 1: I have faith in you. Slow talking is my bag,
Speaker 1: and it doesn't help what the show is called. Talk easy.
Speaker 1: How have the last few months been for you? Though?
Speaker 2: Hectic, chaotic, but fruitful and warm. The fruitful and warm part.
Speaker 2: I've been doing some acting jobs. I've been with my
Speaker 2: wife for twenty one years, and the ups and downs
Speaker 2: of living through the pandemic and like trying to get
Speaker 2: along with everybody has been wonderfully bolstered by my household.
Speaker 2: So all of that is nice and supportive, which is great,
Speaker 2: because then like traveling and being a part of a
Speaker 2: film company or a crowd of people on a tram
Speaker 2: at the Atlanta airport has been very difficult at times.
Speaker 2: So I mean that's the hectic and chaotic part. Looking
Speaker 2: at the fellow earthlings around me and saying, man, how
Speaker 2: can we be so wrong so frequently?
Speaker 1: It's funny because that seems to be some of the
Speaker 1: guiding force of this new book, And in the opening
Speaker 1: it's called where the Deer and the Antelope Play you write.
Speaker 1: Ever since that epiphany, with my limited cognitive capacity, I
Speaker 1: thought you're being hard on yourself there. I have instead
Speaker 1: been able to periodically glimpse the ways in which we
Speaker 1: industriously sell to one another our own demise. One of
Speaker 1: the most pernicious ways in which we do that is
Speaker 1: by pretending and convincing one another that the planet's resources
Speaker 1: are unlimited.
Speaker 3: Heavy shit.
Speaker 1: That seems like a pretty clear mission statement for this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't heard it read out loud. I feel
Speaker 2: like it holds up pretty well.
Speaker 1: Did it feel okay coming from me?
Speaker 2: It really did. I mean, frankly, I take it as
Speaker 2: a compliment that you would read it on your show.
Speaker 2: Hopefully it makes the cut. You just write that down,
Speaker 2: must cut tim grab that timecode. When I first read
Speaker 2: my first Wendelberry stories in about ninety five, it's the
Speaker 2: same epiphany where you know, I grew up in a
Speaker 2: rural part of Illinois and a farming family with great values,
Speaker 2: and I was trying to make my way in the
Speaker 2: theater community of Chicago and really having a hard time
Speaker 2: reconciling myself my self worth with what I perceived to
Speaker 2: be popular culture and just mass media.
Speaker 1: What does that mean?
Speaker 3: I hadn't yet.
Speaker 2: Learned to value myself or understand that I had a
Speaker 2: place in the world of culture, you know, like I
Speaker 2: felt like a complete outsider. And all my cool friends
Speaker 2: who grew up in the suburbs or the city, who
Speaker 2: already had heard of David Mammot, I was like, oh man,
Speaker 2: they're so far ahead of me.
Speaker 3: I'm such a dipshit.
Speaker 2: And so eventually I was like, oh, okay, you guys
Speaker 2: know all about Gucci and Versace and Vidal Sassoon, but
Speaker 2: this guy knows the difference between a standard and a
Speaker 2: Philip said screwdriver, and together we'll make magic.
Speaker 1: The way you said Gucci, was it correct? But do
Speaker 1: you think I would know? I wouldn't. But the way
Speaker 1: you said it, I can hear it playing over an ad.
Speaker 2: The raiments of Stefano Gucci. I'm assuming Gucci's a Stefano,
Speaker 2: I hope. So when I was looking for my place,
Speaker 2: sort of in the world of storytelling and entertainment. Somebody
Speaker 2: dropped these Wendell Berry stories on me, and it just
Speaker 2: was a huge epiphany about how the world I was
Speaker 2: trying to fit into was actually selling a bill of
Speaker 2: goods to the rural world from which I came. And
Speaker 2: I've spent the subsequent twenty five years, you know, trying
Speaker 2: to reconcile that and sort of tell everybody else you, guys,
Speaker 2: I come from gardeners, and we've forgotten about this and
Speaker 2: we shouldn't.
Speaker 1: At that same time in nineteen ninety five, before your
Speaker 1: friend gives you some Wendell Berry to read working at Steppenwolf,
Speaker 1: and you have this time with Sam Shepherd. But I
Speaker 1: think it's kind of a fitting playwright for the culture
Speaker 1: you're talking about. It's hard to convey how culturally ignorant
Speaker 1: I was. Well, we can try it.
Speaker 2: I'll give it a shot. Like I still had no
Speaker 2: inkling that I could ever get from Chicago theater to
Speaker 2: New York or Los Angeles, or to ever work in
Speaker 2: film or television. I had gone to theater school, and
Speaker 2: now I had a company in Chicago with my friends
Speaker 2: called the Defiant Theater, and we were professionally putting up plays,
Speaker 2: and then I ended up getting to work at Steppenwolf.
Speaker 2: But even then Gary Sinisee was directing the show. I
Speaker 2: was understudying Ethan Hawke. Sam Shepherd was there doing rewrites
Speaker 2: on his incredible play Buried Child, which is a great
Speaker 2: representation because it's about a corn farming family.
Speaker 1: Now, this is a play he want to appeel the
Speaker 1: prize for in nineteen seventy nine. Then decided he needed
Speaker 1: to do revisions on a play that won prestigious prize.
Speaker 2: And that's correct. He was a hard man to please.
Speaker 1: Apparently, Sam's usually you.
Speaker 2: Better come correct if you're going to sit down across
Speaker 2: from a Sam. I was a simple laborer, and I
Speaker 2: mean that affectionately. My skill set in my mid twenties
Speaker 2: was way more steered towards working professionally as a scenic carpenter.
Speaker 2: I was just beginning to understand the path to decent
Speaker 2: representative naturalistic acting. But it was my other skills. It
Speaker 2: was my work as a fight combatant and choreographer that
Speaker 2: partially helped get me hired at Steppenwolf when we did
Speaker 2: a clockwork orange and so I was just not that
Speaker 2: sharp and so the fact that Sam Shepherd, you know,
Speaker 2: sent me out for a bottle of Maker's Mark, I
Speaker 2: didn't see him as existing in the world I was in.
Speaker 2: I was one of the dipshits putting on plays here
Speaker 2: in this Chicago scene. And then a dinosaur or a
Speaker 2: dragon would come along, like Sam Shepherd, and we didn't think, oh,
Speaker 2: he came from us, or where we can get where
Speaker 2: he is. And so he sent me out for whiskey,
Speaker 2: and all I could think was in terms of how
Speaker 2: of like James Dean, you know, just asked me for
Speaker 2: a stick of gum, and I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: I'll never wash this pack of gum again. I went
Speaker 2: out and got him a bottle of bourbon. And by
Speaker 2: the end of the anecdote, I was given cause to
Speaker 2: stop and think, like, wait a second, this guy. It
Speaker 2: was before a rehearsal of Buried Child, in which he
Speaker 2: was participating as playwright, like watching the rehearsal, doing rewrites
Speaker 2: and so forth. Some people would say that's not a
Speaker 2: good idea to use intoxicants at work. Basically, other people,
Speaker 2: especially from Sam's heyday in the seventies, would say that
Speaker 2: my friend is what we call rock and roll. As
Speaker 2: a young person, I gravitated towards well, great rock and
Speaker 2: roll sounds good. But as I became more and more
Speaker 2: of a working professional, I was like, oh, I don't
Speaker 2: create my personal rock and roll by drinking whiskey. That's
Speaker 2: my reward for creating rock and roll. If I'm going
Speaker 2: to be rock and roll, it's going to be from soberly,
Speaker 2: like applying the skills.
Speaker 3: I've been given.
Speaker 2: And so you know Sam and the whole up in
Speaker 2: Wolf Company and situation, which is such a gorgeous anomaly.
Speaker 2: You know, these cool, smart, open minded kids mainly from Illinois.
Speaker 2: John Malkovich, Lori, Metcalf, Glenn Headley, Jeff Perry all came
Speaker 2: together and started this theater company that was really groundbreaking
Speaker 2: and sort of dropped their drawers and showed their rear
Speaker 2: ends to American theater.
Speaker 1: You've said a couple of times already that you felt
Speaker 1: as an outsider that the acting space you orbited in
Speaker 1: appeared otherworldly, something far away from where you grew up
Speaker 1: in Minooka, Illinois. But I'm wondering, at what point do
Speaker 1: you think these two worlds diverged or maybe converged.
Speaker 3: That's a great question.
Speaker 2: So I moved to Los Angeles and had two or
Speaker 2: three years of flailing, like trying to find my way
Speaker 2: in this entirely different animal of a city.
Speaker 1: What does that look like?
Speaker 2: I mean, simply being broke, living with my best friend
Speaker 2: and drinking a lot of bourbon and smoking a lot
Speaker 2: of weed and watching the movie Billy Jack over and
Speaker 2: over again, and just you know, trying to like stay
Speaker 2: true to our shared artistic sensibilities while the world is
Speaker 2: telling us, don't be weird and like yourself, do everything
Speaker 2: you can to get on Baywatch or Dawson's Creek, and
Speaker 2: having the wherewithal to be like, yeah, I don't. I
Speaker 2: think that would be a bad move.
Speaker 1: This is nineteen ninety six to nineteen ninety nine, that's correct,
Speaker 1: and you're twenty six to twenty nine.
Speaker 3: Late twenties. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was really having a tough time, and I said,
Speaker 2: you know what, Los Angeles is not a good theater
Speaker 2: town because everybody that you would want to do theater
Speaker 2: with is busy doing TV and film. But nonetheless, my
Speaker 2: entire adulthood has founded upon theater. So I need to
Speaker 2: do a play. And I sort of announced this to
Speaker 2: my circle of friends and two very great casting directors
Speaker 2: Nicole Arbusto and Joy Dixon hooked me up with this
Speaker 2: production of a Charles me play called The Berlin Circle,
Speaker 2: in which I met my wife, my future wife, Megan Malalley.
Speaker 2: I mean, it was never lost on me the power
Speaker 2: with which I said, you know, theater built this guy
Speaker 2: named Nick Offerman, and if I'm going to survive, it's
Speaker 2: going to be with theater. It was a fascinating turn
Speaker 2: of events because I had come to Los Angeles and
Speaker 2: like had good luck. I got meetings with studios and
Speaker 2: casting people and they all basically one way or another,
Speaker 2: said you're not cool, Like you don't get it, and
Speaker 2: I was like, I couldn't agree more. I never said
Speaker 2: I did I like doing plays?
Speaker 3: Do you have any of those going?
Speaker 1: I like you showing up to a film studio being
Speaker 1: like plays.
Speaker 2: I mean my resume. I had a wonderful theater resume
Speaker 2: and they would look at it and say this, have
Speaker 2: you been on MTV?
Speaker 3: Like what are we supposed to do with you?
Speaker 1: When you're standing there in front of these casting directors
Speaker 1: or maybe even before you walk into that audition, what
Speaker 1: is going through your head?
Speaker 3: Not much?
Speaker 2: I mean I was pretty thick headed. When I was
Speaker 2: in Chicago, things started going well right towards the end
Speaker 2: of Chicago and I had a little part in a
Speaker 2: film in Indianapolis. It was a Ben Affleck film before
Speaker 2: Goodwill Hunting. It was a sun Dance movie called Going
Speaker 2: All the Way. And I had a wonderful time as
Speaker 2: like a supporting antagonist in that film. Most of my
Speaker 2: role got cut, actually sadly, because Ben had a prosthetic
Speaker 2: beard that looked so bad they cut the beard scenes,
Speaker 2: which were my scenes. Nonetheless, the gang on that film
Speaker 2: was very supportive and said, you make really funny faces.
Speaker 2: You should try Los Angeles, And I said, that's all
Speaker 2: I need.
Speaker 1: It's incredible that it just took a couple lines of encouragement,
Speaker 1: and I think a whole bunch of talent, a.
Speaker 2: Whole bunch of potential energy that I didn't know what
Speaker 2: to do with.
Speaker 3: Yet.
Speaker 2: Once I got here and was in those meetings, I
Speaker 2: knew that I wasn't cut out to pursue a typical
Speaker 2: Hollywood path, and so pretty quickly I quit auditioning for
Speaker 2: commercials and started working as a carpenter more full time. Eventually,
Speaker 2: I'm coming back around to answer the question of when
Speaker 2: did I feel like I diverged with the rest of
Speaker 2: the people, And I guess that was in my early
Speaker 2: years with Megan, when I first got to hang around
Speaker 2: Will and Grace. In two thousand and one, I befriended
Speaker 2: the writers and the people making the show. And that's
Speaker 2: when I sort of in another graduation from the Steppenwolf days,
Speaker 2: I learned that we're all just trying to find our
Speaker 2: ass with both hands. It's that adult lesson of Oh,
Speaker 2: the high school principle that I thought was such an
Speaker 2: authority figure was just as big a dipshit as I am,
Speaker 2: like or if not more, which is a wonderful lesson.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's, you know, if you could go back
Speaker 2: and tell the younger self anything, For me, it's always
Speaker 2: everybody probably shot themselves sometime in the last year, and
Speaker 2: that humanizes everybody. This is also just a person, and
Speaker 2: so I can just be myself instead of trying to
Speaker 2: be some other notion of a cool actor.
Speaker 1: But it's funny, as children were told, when you're nervous
Speaker 1: in front of people, imagine them without clothes as opposed
Speaker 1: to being told, imagine them being rich, complicated, nuanced people
Speaker 1: with problems like your own. I feel like the underwear
Speaker 1: imagining is not effective.
Speaker 2: I think that's totally true. I think become a trick
Speaker 2: partially through listening to George Saunders. I now have an
Speaker 2: immediate switch that I flip if somebody's behaving in an
Speaker 2: aggressive or violent way. Instead of thinking should I punch
Speaker 2: them or what should I do? I think what must
Speaker 2: have happened to them this morning or in their childhood
Speaker 2: or somewhere in between. Why are they so bummed out?
Speaker 1: Are you always able to do that?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: It's kind of new. Recently, I was on a tramcar
Speaker 2: at the Atlanta Airport and it was one of those
Speaker 2: tram cars just kept filling up with people like a
Speaker 2: subway car.
Speaker 1: This is what you mentioned earlier, Yeah.
Speaker 2: And it gets like a sardine situation. And halfway down
Speaker 2: this packed car, this muscle dude had his mask under
Speaker 2: his chin, and the whole rest of the car, of course,
Speaker 2: is filled with decency and people covering up. For some reason,
Speaker 2: the guy made eye contact with me, and I took
Speaker 2: the front of my mask and I just tugged. I
Speaker 2: just gently was like, hey, put your mask on, And
Speaker 2: the guy reached under his chin and tugged on his
Speaker 2: mask and looked at me insusciantly, as if to say,
Speaker 2: go fuck yourself. And I, thankfully had just been listening
Speaker 2: to George Saunders talk about seeing other people as broken
Speaker 2: machines and we're all, you know, doing our best to
Speaker 2: deal with these incorrect perceptions of the world that we have,
Speaker 2: and thankfully I was able to just be like, Okay,
Speaker 2: don't go shove this dude, Like, don't engage in aggressive behavior.
Speaker 2: What's wrong with this guy? What's wrong with all of us,
Speaker 2: you know? And I was able to derail whatever aggression,
Speaker 2: whatever pugnacious reaction that ignited in me, And I felt
Speaker 2: like that was a great victory. Even though I got
Speaker 2: off the tram, was like, oh man, at least I
Speaker 2: turned off the five alarm fire in my head of
Speaker 2: that guy's being a jerk.
Speaker 3: You should go punch him.
Speaker 1: I think, especially in the past year, George Saunders has
Speaker 1: slowly engendered some kindness in people.
Speaker 2: He's disarming like the reason one of the many reasons
Speaker 2: I love him and Jeff Tweety and aspire to their
Speaker 2: degree of sort of empathetic philosophy and humor in their
Speaker 2: work is because of their ability to do just that
Speaker 2: as middle aged, straight white guys, to sort of ask
Speaker 2: these questions of our human nature and say, how can
Speaker 2: we continue to be decent to one another? George has
Speaker 2: his famous graduation speech about kindness. It's disarming because he
Speaker 2: sounds like such a South side of Chicago, like just
Speaker 2: a normal guy, like do you want to talk? And
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, no, you are the Buddha.
Speaker 1: He's had a profound effect on me, and I think
Speaker 1: on everyone who works on this show after he came on.
Speaker 1: But that question you ask, how can we be decent?
Speaker 1: I wondered was that something you were asking before you
Speaker 1: met Meghan or something you really started to ask of
Speaker 1: yourself as you fell in love.
Speaker 3: Ah boy.
Speaker 2: I had a moment when I got to college, probably
Speaker 2: about age nineteen, when I had been on my own
Speaker 2: two feet for just maybe two or three months away
Speaker 2: from mom and dad's house, and everything landed on me.
Speaker 2: There are simple and life lessons of decency and work
Speaker 2: ethic and common sense values landed on me in a
Speaker 2: way that I called home and said, Okay, first of all,
Speaker 2: I apologize for the last four years of my behavior.
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's reenact this here. You call all right,
Speaker 1: can you do this sound effect for us? Hello?
Speaker 3: Hello, Mom?
Speaker 2: Can I can I talk to Dad?
Speaker 1: Hello?
Speaker 2: Hello Dad, It's Nick. I'm at a payphone near the quad.
Speaker 1: Is that in Iowa?
Speaker 3: No, that's Illinois. Dad.
Speaker 2: You know it's about two and a half hours straight south.
Speaker 2: You're the one that showed me where it is on
Speaker 2: a map. So now I'm worried, But listen, don't distract me.
Speaker 2: I wanted to tell you that I'm sorry for the
Speaker 2: behavior of the last four or five years.
Speaker 3: You know what.
Speaker 2: I'm talking about, my experiments in other ways of life,
Speaker 2: besides the one you suggested to me, And I wanted
Speaker 2: to just say thank you for the simple teachings that
Speaker 2: you and Mom have given me. Be six to two
Speaker 2: and even tell the truth. Work as hard as you can,
Speaker 2: and nobody can ever question you. And from here on out,
Speaker 2: I'm going to endeavor to do just that. Are you
Speaker 2: still there, Dad?
Speaker 1: I gotta be honest. I had to put you on hold.
Speaker 1: Your brother Matt was calling on the other line. I
Speaker 1: had to take it. What's on hold? In nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: click one of us as an actor very clearly.
Speaker 2: That was when I realized that, like the selfish parts
Speaker 2: of my human nature were something that I would be
Speaker 2: combating for the rest of my life. And sort of
Speaker 2: like all the stuff they'd been talking about in the
Speaker 2: Catholic Church I grew up in, I was like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: if you just put it this way, I would have
Speaker 2: gotten it. But you had to dress it up in
Speaker 2: all these parables that put us all to sleep. And
Speaker 2: so that's when my road to adulthood started. Once I
Speaker 2: got into my relationship with Megan, and pretty soon within
Speaker 2: a year or two, realized I was going to do
Speaker 2: my best to marry her again. I just leaned on
Speaker 2: the values my mom and dad instilled in me. So
Speaker 2: that's like the personal domestic part of it.
Speaker 1: When you were being taught by Chozzosanto at the University
Speaker 1: of Illinois, het in you this idea of always being
Speaker 1: a student, always learning every day. And in many ways,
Speaker 1: when I think of what I know of your marriage
Speaker 1: with Megan, it strikes me as something that requires and
Speaker 1: has received routine maintenance. But if we could go back
Speaker 1: to those early months of courtship, because at that point,
Speaker 1: you're in this play that we talked about, the Berlin Circle.
Speaker 1: You're sleeping on a couch in someone's basement. I don't
Speaker 1: know if it has a.
Speaker 2: Bathroom, that's correct, Yeah, I mean it doesn't have a
Speaker 2: bathroom with plumbing. It has a dirt floor, which at
Speaker 2: the time we called a bathroom.
Speaker 1: So how does this happen?
Speaker 2: I never could have gotten to do the things I've
Speaker 2: gotten to do in my life without my sensey teaching
Speaker 2: me that little idiom, and that just always stuck with me,
Speaker 2: especially when I was no longer technically a student. When
Speaker 2: I got to Los Angeles, I had to maintain an openness.
Speaker 2: The answers were never apparent when I arrived in each
Speaker 2: phase in my life, whether it was Hollywood or in
Speaker 2: my relationship with Megan, it didn't make any sense at
Speaker 2: all when we met. I just had a real classist
Speaker 2: leaning in my brain. So when I met Megan, she
Speaker 2: was doing great. She was about to win her first
Speaker 2: Emmy for Will and Grace. She was gorgeous, Broadway star, talented,
Speaker 2: was wearing fashionable clothing. I mean, even that was outside
Speaker 2: of my realm of perception, where I was like, Oh,
Speaker 2: you are announcing when you walk in the door again
Speaker 2: that you like Sam Shepard. You're not I'm not of you,
Speaker 2: We're not on the same plane, and pretty quickly our magnetism,
Speaker 2: the parts of ourselves that were attracted to one another
Speaker 2: made themselves known, and the rest of me was terrified.
Speaker 2: And in hindsight, I can see that I was able
Speaker 2: to maintain the attitude of a student and say, Okay,
Speaker 2: what's going on here. I'm getting a lot of signals
Speaker 2: that there's going to be love making here at some point.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, that doesn't jibe with the
Speaker 2: shoes that you're wearing that I've only seen on television
Speaker 2: or what have you. And I was terrified, And I
Speaker 2: guess many times I've been terrified because I'm entering into
Speaker 2: an unknown part of the realm.
Speaker 3: Of the world.
Speaker 1: What does a terrifying you look like?
Speaker 2: I get butterflies really bad. I mean, I specifically remember
Speaker 2: having this inclination about Megan and myself. There's no greater
Speaker 2: place to make friends, like if you've ever been in
Speaker 2: a school or true situation, either you're really good at
Speaker 2: making fart noises or just good at farting. It's your confederates,
Speaker 2: the people who you make eye contact with and then
Speaker 2: try not to laugh. And that enjoyment of not laughing
Speaker 2: in a reverential setting. You take that backstage at the theater,
Speaker 2: and the things that you do backstage with your castmates
Speaker 2: to fuck around when what's happening on stage, your life's work,
Speaker 2: which demands the ultimate reverence, makes it so funny to
Speaker 2: be silently irreverent off stage. And so Megan and I
Speaker 2: quickly became that where we're like, it's just the little
Speaker 2: one liners. And she would say things to me. She
Speaker 2: was so filthy, and I would go home every night
Speaker 2: to my best friend Pat, I'd be like, check out
Speaker 2: what she said today about my balls, Like this, No her,
Speaker 2: you know, the lead of the show.
Speaker 1: And you were waiting for a woman to say that
Speaker 1: about your balls, I was.
Speaker 2: I was like, she's the one I have found her.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to go on to my dad one
Speaker 1: day and say.
Speaker 2: Check out when she said them out my ball's dad.
Speaker 2: And so all of those positive signals were happening. But
Speaker 2: at the same time, I was a peasant. I mean
Speaker 2: it was very pre peasant prints in the pauper circumstance.
Speaker 2: I was country mouse anymore. The scriptors for what you were, No.
Speaker 3: That's it.
Speaker 2: I was terrified of stepping into the world where people
Speaker 2: pay thirty five dollars for a pair of dress socks.
Speaker 2: My family, my extended farm family in Illinois, there's a
Speaker 2: defense mechanism where you don't buy brand name soda, and
Speaker 2: we all agree. So if we showed up at a
Speaker 2: family picnic with Coca Cola instead of generic cola, eyes
Speaker 2: would roll. People would say, Oh, I guess you're putting
Speaker 2: on airs as they used to say, you're holding yourself
Speaker 2: above and that's dangerous. You sprung for the price here
Speaker 2: soda exactly. But that's a licentiousness in your living that's
Speaker 2: dangerous to a community.
Speaker 1: I don't think that word licentiousness has ever been described around.
Speaker 2: Coca cola, choosing coke over diet cola. These are heady times, Sam,
Speaker 2: but no, it's true. It's something that I was really
Speaker 2: aware of where once I moved in with Megan and
Speaker 2: became part of her world, I then would wear clothing
Speaker 2: home to Minuka that I was aware was offensive because
Speaker 2: it was not bought at J. C. Penny or the
Speaker 2: Farm and Fleet. So there's this old fashioned sensibility that's protective,
Speaker 2: that's like, oh, we don't buy those fancy shoes because
Speaker 2: we don't give ourselves permission that's part of our frugality
Speaker 2: by which we survive. So that was the terrifying part.
Speaker 2: Was was me saying, okay to I'm going to enter
Speaker 2: your world where you're going to take me to the
Speaker 2: halls of j Crewe and put me in a try
Speaker 2: to put me in a sweater. She hasn't succeeded yet,
Speaker 2: but we tried.
Speaker 1: And the turning point came that night at the Hollywood
Speaker 1: Ball seeing Glenn Campbell.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we tossed it back and forth. Megan had had
Speaker 2: some ups and downs. She had been dating, in her words,
Speaker 2: you know, she had been dating like rock drummer types,
Speaker 2: skinny little guys, and she was very much the I
Speaker 2: think the boss of her dating relationships. And when she
Speaker 2: met me, I learned later she found me also to
Speaker 2: be a strange animal. And she thought, oh, this isn't
Speaker 2: dating material, Like if I'm going to get into this,
Speaker 2: this is for keeps. And so with that in mind,
Speaker 2: she made me work a long time, like she made
Speaker 2: me ply my troth for months before like moving into
Speaker 2: the bedroom.
Speaker 1: It took four months. Is that how long?
Speaker 2: That sounds about right?
Speaker 1: That's what she's estimated. Yeah, that's a long time.
Speaker 2: It was, but I mean, you know, there were things
Speaker 2: going on. There were crumbs on the trail before we
Speaker 2: got to the picnic basket. I'll remind you this is
Speaker 2: coming out of a few years of drunken stumbling of
Speaker 2: like is my what am I? And suddenly I found
Speaker 2: the love of my life. And so, as I told
Speaker 2: her at the time, I'll sleep on your couch for
Speaker 2: a long time, I don't. It's so much better.
Speaker 1: Than the couch I'm currently sleeping on then.
Speaker 3: Urinating on a dirt floor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so we ultimately ended up going to the
Speaker 2: Hollywood Bowl to see Glenn Campbell on the fourth of July.
Speaker 2: He was in rare Form and during Rhyanstone Cowboy, Megan
Speaker 2: leaned over and asked me to be her boyfriend. And
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, in hindsight, I believe then all
Speaker 2: the fireworks went off at once.
Speaker 3: It was a big night blacker.
Speaker 4: Cow people.
Speaker 1: So, if we're writing the story of this in the
Speaker 1: aftermath of that night, you two officially are boyfriend girlfriend.
Speaker 1: A couple of years later, you get married by your
Speaker 1: former professor. What I want to go to is this
Speaker 1: remarkably strange coincidence. In the early to mid two thousands,
Speaker 1: you and your wife would be home watching the Office
Speaker 1: and now and again you would see the character played
Speaker 1: by Rain Wilson. Because name is Dwight Droyt Schreut. People
Speaker 1: at home are like, yeah, it's Dwight. Obviously. You would
Speaker 1: see this character and turn to your wife and say,
Speaker 1: you know, if this is ever going to work out
Speaker 1: for me, it's going to be a character like that
Speaker 1: on a show like this. And lo and behold, two
Speaker 1: thousand and nine comes around and you go through a
Speaker 1: pretty arduous process to get the role of Ron Swanson.
Speaker 1: There's a big phone call that happens, but walk us
Speaker 1: through the steps before you got that phone call.
Speaker 2: Backing up even a little farther, when I used to
Speaker 2: go religiously to watch Will and Grace tape every week,
Speaker 2: and I learned that TV shows and films are made
Speaker 2: by people just like me. I would work as a
Speaker 2: carpenter all day, then go watch Will and Grace and
Speaker 2: then drive home over the hill and think, man, and
Speaker 2: how could I ever get a job like that? And
Speaker 2: then you know, I got better and better sort of
Speaker 2: guest star roles. And I had this experience with Megan.
Speaker 2: Now I knew Rain Wilson. We had auditioned together many
Speaker 2: times over the years. I felt like we were kind
Speaker 2: of on the same team. We would always read for
Speaker 2: like the weird guy in the basement. So he had
Speaker 2: a great little arc on Six Feet Under, which is
Speaker 2: maybe the best show in our lifetimes, and then he
Speaker 2: had his huge breakout run as Dwight Shreut And so
Speaker 2: I said that to Megan. I had actually auditioned with others,
Speaker 2: you know, for the role of Michael Scott. I did
Speaker 2: not get that part, but then they read me for
Speaker 2: some other stuff on the office, so I wasn't completely
Speaker 2: out in left field in saying that. Eventually I read
Speaker 2: for a small role that Mike wanted to cast. It
Speaker 2: was an episode that Mike had written. So I auditioned
Speaker 2: for Greg and Mike and the great casting director Allison Jones,
Speaker 2: and Mike wanted to cast me in this part. He
Speaker 2: really he loved me, like I really struck a chord
Speaker 2: with him that day, and I couldn't do it, unfortunately,
Speaker 2: because I had coincidentally promised myself to Gary Sinise. I
Speaker 2: had a rule at the time, and that was no
Speaker 2: CSI shows. But then Gary, who I knew from Steppenwolf,
Speaker 2: was doing CSI New York and there was this guest
Speaker 2: star spot and I committed to doing this CSI New
Speaker 2: York episode. Mike sure wants to cast me on the
Speaker 2: Office finally, and I can't do it. And if I'm
Speaker 2: a man of my word, if I wasn't, I could
Speaker 2: just say sorry Gary something you know, something better came along,
Speaker 2: But I didn't. I stuck to my guns, and thankfully,
Speaker 2: Mike wrote my name on a post it, put it
Speaker 2: on his computer monitor, and a few years later, when
Speaker 2: he was asked to create a new show with Greg
Speaker 2: sort of a spin off of the Office, initially he
Speaker 2: had that post it and he said, I really want
Speaker 2: this guy on the show.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Somehow they got it in their heads to try me out,
Speaker 2: and they liked me, but NBC wasn't satisfied. They were like,
Speaker 2: I don't think so. So they made them audition every
Speaker 2: other actor available on the planet, really for months, and
Speaker 2: it was very painful because I knew that this was
Speaker 2: the situation that they creatively wanted me, but couldn't sort
Speaker 2: of cast me until they had exhausted every other possibility.
Speaker 2: So finally, at the end of that arduous process, they
Speaker 2: had me come in for a final audition, which they
Speaker 2: turned into NBC and I got the job. The final
Speaker 2: sort of straw, the tipping point was Amy Poehler had
Speaker 2: come to town to start work, and so they had
Speaker 2: me come in and improvise some scenes with Amy, and
Speaker 2: that's what they taped and sent to NBC. And I
Speaker 2: had the good sense to just be quiet and let
Speaker 2: Amy improvise because that's what she does. And then at
Speaker 2: the end of each scene, I would say like one thing,
Speaker 2: like Leslie, I've heard what you are asking me and
Speaker 2: my answer is no, And they were like, great, you
Speaker 2: got you know you got it. So Mike Sure called
Speaker 2: me to tell me that I got the job.
Speaker 3: Gosh.
Speaker 2: I remember sitting at our breakfast island and I just
Speaker 2: immediately started wetley sobbing, which is warm water rushing out
Speaker 2: of my face. Because I was thirty eight years old,
Speaker 2: and so for for a good twelve years at least,
Speaker 2: you know, I'd been dealing with a lot of rejection
Speaker 2: in circumstances like these. And so not only was it
Speaker 2: the first time that I finally got the call, but
Speaker 2: also the realization that all of the other lesser projects
Speaker 2: that I didn't get I never could have gotten this one.
Speaker 2: If I had gotten one of those, said Mike, please
Speaker 2: keep talking to me, I'm just going to cry here
Speaker 2: into your ear. And I was right. I was right
Speaker 2: to cry because it changed my life.
Speaker 1: Ron Swanson will be next.
Speaker 2: When it comes to government hearings. The only type of
Speaker 2: witness I enjoy being is a hostile one. That's why
Speaker 2: I intend to answer every one of their questions with
Speaker 2: the question were.
Speaker 1: You aware that all of the entertainment and food was
Speaker 1: provided by rec center teachers?
Speaker 3: Would I have stayed if I knew that?
Speaker 1: I don't know? What do you have?
Speaker 3: Would do you have?
Speaker 5: No? I wouldn't have. Did you hear leslie? Make any promises?
Speaker 3: What constitutes a promise?
Speaker 4: A quid pro quote?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 3: Do you know Latin?
Speaker 4: Okay?
Speaker 1: Thank you, Ron.
Speaker 2: The less I know about other people's affairs, the happier
Speaker 2: I am not interested in caring about people. I once
Speaker 2: worked with a guy for three years and never learned
Speaker 2: his name. Best friend I ever had. I would prefer
Speaker 2: that she asked me for my permission so I can
Speaker 2: say no.
Speaker 3: I like saying no.
Speaker 2: It lowers their enthusiasm.
Speaker 1: The role definitely changed your life and the character. Ron
Speaker 1: Swanson has become kind of embedded into the fabric of
Speaker 1: American culture, and that happened for better or worse, because
Speaker 1: during the Trump years there was kind of memifying that
Speaker 1: happened of Ron Swanson's values. And when I look back
Speaker 1: at this, it reminds me a little bit of how
Speaker 1: Archie Bunker was perceived in the aftermath of All in
Speaker 1: the Family. Normally or Carol O'Connor, both devout liberals, and
Speaker 1: yet many people look to Archie Bunker as validation for
Speaker 1: their behavior, reasons to be racist, misogynists, a patriot. The
Speaker 1: satire was lost on them, and some of that seemed
Speaker 1: to happen with your character.
Speaker 2: It has been a very interesting part of the fandom
Speaker 2: of the of that role. In every instance, Ron Swanson's
Speaker 2: his political stances, I don't I don't think they ever
Speaker 2: veer from decency. He's kind of a cartoon character. He
Speaker 2: can exist in a in a TV comedy written by
Speaker 2: incredibly intelligent people in a way that he I don't
Speaker 2: think he can.
Speaker 3: Exist in reality.
Speaker 2: It's it's strange. It's strange when people misperceive the intent
Speaker 2: of the show, which is so good hearted to begin with,
Speaker 2: but so is universal health care and either way you
Speaker 2: can you can have people shaking their fist demanding that
Speaker 2: they retain their God given right to go to hell.
Speaker 2: And so when I'm dealing with my readership or my
Speaker 2: audience and I have those people that are taken by
Speaker 2: surprise and say, wait a second, you're a snowflake, I
Speaker 2: do my best to gently say no. I don't say no,
Speaker 2: you're a jerk. If you are, I say no. But
Speaker 2: we all have been, and we all have that within us.
Speaker 2: So here's why. And if I can bring a few
Speaker 2: Ron Swanson heads along with each performance on tour or
Speaker 2: each book, that's kind of the crux of my work
Speaker 2: is like, instead of shaking my fist or trying to
Speaker 2: incite rancor instead saying we are a bunch of humans
Speaker 2: and we by definition have been screwing up the whole time,
Speaker 2: and we will always continue to screw up. It's important
Speaker 2: to remember, I think that even when we get something right,
Speaker 2: it won't stay right because everything keeps changing and evolving
Speaker 2: and decaying and dying. And so what life is about
Speaker 2: is the constant vigilance of trying to do right with
Speaker 2: the new circumstances presented by the birth of each new season,
Speaker 2: and so to anyone across the political rainbow, I say, look,
Speaker 2: we're all screwing up. You know, we're in a country
Speaker 2: where we ostensibly get to pick what happens. And look
Speaker 2: at how much pain and injustice there is. So how
Speaker 2: can we What do you guys want to talk about,
Speaker 2: you know, to keep moving forward? What can we fix?
Speaker 2: What have we done wrong? What can we do better?
Speaker 2: And I think Ron would agree with most of those things,
Speaker 2: and where he doesn't agree, Leslie will bring him around eventually.
Speaker 1: I like this idea of you bringing some of those
Speaker 1: diehard fans with you on your travels, and as believe
Speaker 1: I was thinking about where you wanted to take people
Speaker 1: with this book.
Speaker 2: I want to take us to the farm and sink
Speaker 2: our hands into the soil and have the farmers that
Speaker 2: know tell us what's good or not about that soil
Speaker 2: and why and how we've caused it to be that way.
Speaker 2: Take us to the woods and take us to the
Speaker 2: national parks and say, okay, what have we done here
Speaker 2: that's right? And okay, that was quick. Now let's talk
Speaker 2: about what we've done that's wrong. Everybody might want to
Speaker 2: sit down. This is going to take a minute. We
Speaker 2: did this, We committed genocide against these indigenous tribes. For example.
Speaker 2: We can cop to that. It's okay, it's understandable. We're
Speaker 2: human animals. You know, they have more apples than we do.
Speaker 2: Sometimes we think we need to kill them to get
Speaker 2: the apples.
Speaker 3: The humans.
Speaker 2: That's part of what we do. But let's cop to
Speaker 2: it and say, okay, now, what if we find a
Speaker 2: way to try and distribute the apples without any killing.
Speaker 2: So I would like to take us into that conversation
Speaker 2: and hopefully some smarter people than me will get up
Speaker 2: on the tree stump and say, okay, guys, first of all,
Speaker 2: here's a cure for cancer I came up with. Now
Speaker 2: let's talk about apples.
Speaker 1: Well, part of the book is you bring Jeff Tweety
Speaker 1: and George Saunders into the Glacier National Park in Montana.
Speaker 1: You keep referring to them as two people smarter than you.
Speaker 3: No one's going to need any convincing on that front.
Speaker 1: At the end of your trip, you have a dinner,
Speaker 1: and I wondered, for those who haven't read the book yet,
Speaker 1: if you could recount some of that evening when.
Speaker 2: We had our final dinner to sort of wrap up
Speaker 2: the whole trip. George, in his inimitable way, you know,
Speaker 2: talked about how nice everybody was on the trail, and
Speaker 2: it devolved into this idea of when you're with people,
Speaker 2: it's a lot easier to be nice in an instinctive way.
Speaker 2: When you see another person, if they're not brandishing a
Speaker 2: weapon or their teeth, you think, okay, are we sharing
Speaker 2: this bus bench?
Speaker 3: Are you? Is everything okay?
Speaker 2: But the farther you get from people, which is also represented.
Speaker 2: I think by talking face to face, talking screen to screen,
Speaker 2: talking on the phone with no visual to texting, by
Speaker 2: the time you get to that, it's become so impersonal
Speaker 2: that it's so much easier to shake your fist and
Speaker 2: say I hate you. And Jeff talked about how he
Speaker 2: thinks that liberals in general are progressives. I really like
Speaker 2: the terms conservative and progressive because part of conservativism, in
Speaker 2: my way of thinking, is people want to conserve the
Speaker 2: way things are. There's a sense of fear. I think there, like,
Speaker 2: let's everything's cool, the lights are on, let's just all
Speaker 2: be cool, let's not go changing stuff. And progressives want
Speaker 2: to progress. They understand that our lights may be on,
Speaker 2: but not everybody's lights.
Speaker 1: Are on.
Speaker 2: According to the American documentation, everyone deserves to have their
Speaker 2: lights on in an equal measure, and so let's try
Speaker 2: and progress until that's the case. And Jeff points out
Speaker 2: that on the progressive side of things, what those people
Speaker 2: want us to accomplish is to love people in the
Speaker 2: abstract instead of think about foreigners or the other people
Speaker 2: and somehow create an enmity there like they have the
Speaker 2: oil or they want to do bad things to us.
Speaker 2: Come to understand that we're all us and that we
Speaker 2: should love everybody. It's still going to be complicated, you know.
Speaker 2: Just a car full of kids is enough to require
Speaker 2: a lifetime and negotiation, let alone a nation or a planet.
Speaker 2: But you have to start from the place that we're
Speaker 2: all in the same family and ideally we'd like to
Speaker 2: reach our destination with everybody still alive and healthy in
Speaker 2: that vehicle full of kids.
Speaker 1: Well, we've reached our destination, and that is shortly after
Speaker 1: this trip. Jeff Tweety of will Go comes up with
Speaker 1: the song co written by George Saunders, that I'd like
Speaker 1: to play.
Speaker 3: I would love that.
Speaker 6: It's the less less call when it's time for a
Speaker 6: song sake, bed, I know I'm gonna cry.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm gonna cry.
Speaker 6: Because all in all, I'm just having a ball be alone.
Speaker 1: And I don't wanna die.
Speaker 4: It's the end of the end. Oh this beautiful dream
Speaker 4: we're in how wake up again, Robin?
Speaker 5: Or in.
Speaker 4: A howid.
Speaker 5: Howe you feel warm and fuzzy?
Speaker 2: I love those guys. Jeff is super good at songs,
Speaker 2: and so it's Georgian fact. It's like his secret is
Speaker 2: he's a very accomplished guitar player and writer of music himself.
Speaker 2: But I just I love that about them. You know
Speaker 2: that the existentialism of that song that's tied to one
Speaker 2: of the themes of my book, and that is we're
Speaker 2: all part of the same bag of molecules, and if
Speaker 2: you care about anything like your family, or your community,
Speaker 2: or your ecosystem, then we should try our best to
Speaker 2: treat it all with equal affection, because it is all
Speaker 2: the same. And that's a hard thing, I think, for
Speaker 2: everyone to wrap their heads around. But we can just
Speaker 2: start with the people, and then we could maybe expand
Speaker 2: that to the people and the animals.
Speaker 1: Fittingly, I have a poem for us that I thought
Speaker 1: you may want to read before we leave.
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, Okay, This was by Wendell Berry and it's
Speaker 2: called The Piece of wild Things. When despair for the
Speaker 2: world grows in me and I wake in the night
Speaker 2: at the least sound in fear of what my life
Speaker 2: and my children's lives may be, I go and lie
Speaker 2: down where the wood drake rests in his beauty on
Speaker 2: the water, and the great heron feeds. I come into
Speaker 2: the peace of wild things who do not tax their
Speaker 2: lives with forethought of grief. I come into the presence
Speaker 2: of still water above me, the day blind stars waiting
Speaker 2: with their light. For a time, I rest in the
Speaker 2: grace of the world and am free. That's all I'm suggesting.
Speaker 2: I'm suggesting that that that a little more of that,
Speaker 2: and a little less maybe of fantasy football, can be
Speaker 2: not a punishment but a reward.
Speaker 1: Nick Goferman, thank you for your time.
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me, Sam, And.
Speaker 1: That's our show. I want to give us special thanks
Speaker 1: this week to Nick Offerman for joining us on the program.
Speaker 1: I'd like to see his new film Civil War. You
Speaker 1: can do so at a theater near you. We've included
Speaker 1: a link to showtimes in your local area at talk
Speaker 1: easypod dot com. If you want to support the program,
Speaker 1: be sure to share it on social media. You can
Speaker 1: also give us five stars on Spotify Apple wherever you
Speaker 1: do your podcasting. As always, you can reach us at
Speaker 1: SF at talk easypod dot com. If you want to
Speaker 1: check out other episodes with other very funny actors, I'd
Speaker 1: recommend Quintin Brunson, Bill Hayter, Nick Kroll, Alan Ruck, and
Speaker 1: Robbie Yusef. You can find those and more Pushkin podcast
Speaker 1: at Spotify Apple. Wherever you do your podcasting. As always,
Speaker 1: you can follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram at talk Easypod.
Speaker 1: You can also purchase one of our mugs at talk
Speaker 1: easypod dot com slash shop. We also have made a
Speaker 1: record with writer Fran Lebowitz. We don't have many of
Speaker 1: those left, so if you want to purchase a vinyl
Speaker 1: record of that talk with Fran, you can do so
Speaker 1: at talk easypod dot com slash shop. As always, Talk
Speaker 1: Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is
Speaker 1: Chennik Sa Bravo. Today's episode was edited by Andre Linn.
Speaker 1: It was mixed by Andrew Vastola. Our illustrations are by Chrishiashanoy.
Speaker 1: Our graphics are by Ethan Seneca. Our music is by
Speaker 1: Dylan Peck. I also want to thank our team at
Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries, Justin Richmond, Owen Miller, Kerrie Brody, Jacob Smith,
Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, Tara Machado, Sarah Nix,
Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell, Gretacon and Jacob Weisberg. I'm Sam Fragoso. Thank
Speaker 1: you for listening to another episode of Talk Easy. I'll
Speaker 1: see you back here next Sunday with Gerond Carmichael. Until then,
Speaker 1: stay safe and Solo had a patro