Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining me for session three fifty seven of Me
Speaker 1: for Black Girls podcast. We'll get right into our conversation
Speaker 1: after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 2: Hey there, I'm doctor mel and I'm on the Therapy
Speaker 2: for Black Girls podcasts. I'm in session today unpacking how
Speaker 2: to stop shooting on yourself.
Speaker 1: Take a second to think of all the things in
Speaker 1: your life you've been told you should do. I should
Speaker 1: eat more healthy, I should be a better mom, I
Speaker 1: should have a partner. Now, imagine how much freer you
Speaker 1: could be by transforming those shoulds into cans, allowing you
Speaker 1: the ability to pursue your desires without shame. To talk
Speaker 1: with me today about why women should stop shooting themselves. Yes,
Speaker 1: you heard me right is returning guests doctor Melissa Robinson Brown.
Speaker 1: Doctor mel is a licensed clinical psychologist, health and wellness enthusiast,
Speaker 1: and tip passionate entrepreneur. In her private practice a renewed
Speaker 1: focused psychology services, she helps women who want to feel
Speaker 1: empowered while navigating difficult life situations and transitions. During our conversation,
Speaker 1: we discuss how to notice when you've developed a pattern
Speaker 1: of shooting on yourself or others, the importance of having
Speaker 1: a strong group of friends who can help you combat
Speaker 1: negative self talk, and how parents can stop the cycle
Speaker 1: of shooting by embracing grace and compassion. If something resonates
Speaker 1: with you while enjoying our conversation, please share with us
Speaker 1: on social media using the hashtag TVG in session or
Speaker 1: join us over in the sister circle To talk more
Speaker 1: about the episode, You can join us at community dot
Speaker 1: therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. Here's our conversation. Well, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us again today, Doctor mill Thank.
Speaker 2: You so much for having me. I'm so excited to
Speaker 2: be back on the podcast. It's been too.
Speaker 1: Long, been way too long, and I know our listeners
Speaker 1: are ready for an update. So, as you mentioned, it's
Speaker 1: been a while since you've been with us since twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: people will recognize your voice, maybe from men, but let
Speaker 1: us know what you have been up to since you
Speaker 1: were talking with us about living single.
Speaker 2: So I continue to have a private practice. I now
Speaker 2: have a group practice, so there are more clinicians available
Speaker 2: to see clients. I have the side Packed designation, which
Speaker 2: means I can see clients in over forty states and
Speaker 2: do telehealth and actually have openings right now, which is
Speaker 2: so rare. I have also moved a little bit into
Speaker 2: the coaching space, so I have a coaching program called
Speaker 2: Limitless and Fearless the Badass Transformation, where I help women
Speaker 2: start to step into more of their authenticity, become bolder
Speaker 2: in their requests and their asks, and set better boundaries
Speaker 2: so they can go to work and leave that toxic
Speaker 2: job that's been holding them back, or ask for that
Speaker 2: raise they've been deserving, have more space in their lives
Speaker 2: because now they are setting better boundaries with their family,
Speaker 2: with their kids, their partners, and they feel seen and
Speaker 2: they're developing really healthy relationships. So I'm really excited about
Speaker 2: that program. And I have a journal coming out this
Speaker 2: year called the Badass Transformation Journal. So we've been busy.
Speaker 1: We've been busy over Yeah you have, Yes, you have.
Speaker 1: So doctor Mail, tell me a little bit about what
Speaker 1: made you start the coaching program and how it is
Speaker 1: different maybe from the work that you do in clinical practice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. So clinical practice, I love it.
Speaker 2: I love what I do, but there are limitations in
Speaker 2: the sense that I get to see my clients one
Speaker 2: to one forty five minutes a week. And while I
Speaker 2: love that, I know that there is so much additional
Speaker 2: work to be done in between, right in between those sessions.
Speaker 2: And I also think there are such value to community.
Speaker 2: So my coaching program right now is a group coaching program.
Speaker 2: So the goal being, especially because I'm focusing on on
Speaker 2: building healthier relationships, I want women to be able to
Speaker 2: be in a space where they can start to build
Speaker 2: community and get feedback about their growth, to get affirmation,
Speaker 2: because so often they don't. Women don't get that right.
Speaker 2: And so I moved into this space because number one,
Speaker 2: I wanted to be able to reach and help more women.
Speaker 2: But I just love the idea of coaching and encouraging
Speaker 2: and promoting in a group space and being able to
Speaker 2: do that in between work, in between the sessions, so
Speaker 2: to speak.
Speaker 1: I love that we love in vivo feedback. Right, There's
Speaker 1: nothing like being able to hear in real time like
Speaker 1: how you're coming across the people.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, absolutely, it's so powerful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed. So so much of your work, doctor Mail
Speaker 1: has really been about this kind of badass transformation in
Speaker 1: so much of your work. I'm wondering in your work
Speaker 1: with both your coaching clients and your therapy clients, if
Speaker 1: there are general themes that come up about things that
Speaker 1: get in the way of women and creating the lives
Speaker 1: that they say they want for themselves.
Speaker 2: Yes. One of the things that I really have been
Speaker 2: focusing on I've always focused on, but I'm taking a
Speaker 2: different approach to it is there are so many rules
Speaker 2: and structures ways in which we are socialized to behave
Speaker 2: to show up right, the concept of professionalism and how
Speaker 2: we need to be in a space and be more professional. Right,
Speaker 2: So somebody may look at me right now with my
Speaker 2: purple hair, my big red earrings, these nails and be like, ugh,
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's professional, but that has nothing
Speaker 2: to do with what's coming out in my mouth, right,
Speaker 2: And so, really, so many of the things that get
Speaker 2: in the way of women getting closer to what they
Speaker 2: want is they're trying to follow the rules that were
Speaker 2: set and established hundreds of years ago, and they were
Speaker 2: relevant back then, but they're not relevant now, and the
Speaker 2: idea of changing them is scary. There's no new template
Speaker 2: to follow, there's no new pathway, and so we don't
Speaker 2: change them because that's all we know. But we can't
Speaker 2: get caught up in that old stuff because it's blocking
Speaker 2: our come up now.
Speaker 1: Ooh, I love that, So talk to me more about
Speaker 1: what does it look like to start because I think
Speaker 1: for some people they don't even realize like they are
Speaker 1: following these rules that like society and our parents and
Speaker 1: other people have given us. So what does it look
Speaker 1: like to start the work of changing some of these rules,
Speaker 1: especially if you don't even know that you're operating by them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. So I think it's first.
Speaker 2: I was talking to somebody recently and knowing when you're stuck,
Speaker 2: because usually when you feel like you're stuck, it's because
Speaker 2: there's a rule you're following that doesn't fit, or there's
Speaker 2: something about yourself that you're not accepting, and so once
Speaker 2: you can start to identify what that is, it's helpful.
Speaker 2: I'm a big journal start to get the things out
Speaker 2: of your head because we think this and then we
Speaker 2: get distracted by our kids and then oh this other
Speaker 2: revelation comes up, and oh yeah, I gotta return this
Speaker 2: work email. So all that good work that's happening in
Speaker 2: your head, it gets lost. So journaling is so important
Speaker 2: getting it out of your head and writing it down,
Speaker 2: or getting it out of your head and talking it out.
Speaker 2: Sometimes people are like, I don't want to write, or
Speaker 2: journals are scary because what if somebody finds it? So
Speaker 2: you do a voice memo, anything you can keep personal
Speaker 2: to yourself. But start there and think about what do
Speaker 2: you value the most in your life and what's driving that.
Speaker 2: Is there a particular value, Is there a particular belief
Speaker 2: that you're holding onto, and does that feel like it's
Speaker 2: in alignment with how you want to live your life,
Speaker 2: not how you should live your life, but how you
Speaker 2: want to live it. And that's just a great place
Speaker 2: to start to just start to jot those down.
Speaker 1: So I wonder if you have a couple of journal
Speaker 1: prompts that you maybe share doctor mail that you can
Speaker 1: offer with our community that could be helpful for this process.
Speaker 2: So I'm going to take it to like career, right,
Speaker 2: because I talk about this a lot, and I'll even
Speaker 2: do professionalism or what I wear to work. So you
Speaker 2: may be thinking about, Hey, I want to show up
Speaker 2: at work as my most authentic self. So the first
Speaker 2: prop would be what does that look like to me?
Speaker 2: Like if I had no restrictions in the world at work,
Speaker 2: if there wasn't a dress code, if there wasn't a
Speaker 2: boss telling me that I had to look or dress
Speaker 2: a certain way, what would I put on? How would
Speaker 2: I show up? What would it look like for me
Speaker 2: to use my voice in those situations? Starting to journal
Speaker 2: about if there were no restrictions, what would I do?
Speaker 2: And then once you've written that down to say, am
Speaker 2: I showing up this way now? Yes? Or no? And
Speaker 2: if I am, what about this environment allows me to
Speaker 2: do that? So thinking about Okay, yeah, I do think
Speaker 2: I can show up the way I want at work.
Speaker 2: I can wear color, I could change my hair, I
Speaker 2: can put in braids, I can wear my fro I
Speaker 2: can straighten it. What about that environment allows me to
Speaker 2: do that? And then if your answer is no, to
Speaker 2: am I showing up this way? What about this environment
Speaker 2: is stopping me? What are the rules? What are the thoughts?
Speaker 2: What's the culture here that's stopping me from showing up
Speaker 2: the way I want? And do I want to continue
Speaker 2: to stay here? Right? Is it worth it for me
Speaker 2: to sacrifice this thing that I'm feeling or this thing
Speaker 2: that I'm wanting to be in this work environment. I
Speaker 2: feel like I gave you like ten prompts, but.
Speaker 1: I'm sure the community will love that. We love a
Speaker 1: good journal assignment, so I appreciate you sharing that. And
Speaker 1: something that you talked about that I think will be
Speaker 1: helpful for us to talk a little bit more about
Speaker 1: is not the things that you should do, but the
Speaker 1: things that you want to do. And I know so
Speaker 1: much of your work really focusing on stopping people from
Speaker 1: shooting all over themselves, So can you talk to us
Speaker 1: more about what does that mean? Like when you say, like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're shooting on yourself again, what are we saying?
Speaker 2: I have a series on TikTok that I do shooting Tuesdays,
Speaker 2: and so many people will go what did you just say?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I remember learning about that in grad
Speaker 1: school and thinking I was so tickled if that was
Speaker 1: a word.
Speaker 2: Oh but when you should on yourself, you literally put
Speaker 2: the shoulds on you and you are judging. So a
Speaker 2: should signals judgment the minute you use it in your vocabulary.
Speaker 2: I should mother this way. I should get married at
Speaker 2: twenty six because that's what women do. I should have
Speaker 2: a baby, I should pursue this career path because this
Speaker 2: is what I went to school for. And it doesn't
Speaker 2: matter if I really like art. I should be a
Speaker 2: lawyer because that's what I got my degree in. Right, So,
Speaker 2: the minute you start saying that, you're putting a judgment
Speaker 2: on yourself because if you don't do it, then it
Speaker 2: must be bad, right if you should and you're not.
Speaker 2: And when we're shoulding on ourselves, we're just judging ourselves
Speaker 2: all over the place. It's like judging up and down,
Speaker 2: back and forth every which way, and that is really challenging.
Speaker 2: We start to feel bad. Right, I should put my
Speaker 2: kids to bed at seven pm. So then when you
Speaker 2: put them to bed at eight pm, now you're feeling
Speaker 2: like a bad mom. Right, I don't know any should
Speaker 2: that then turns into a good thing. Even I should
Speaker 2: do more self care Okay, But then because you don't,
Speaker 2: you start to feel bad. Oh, I don't make enough
Speaker 2: time for myself. I'm just failing at life. So when
Speaker 2: you're shoulding on yourself, you're constantly judging and you're actually
Speaker 2: not helping yourself make progress in any way.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I'm thinking, what then is the balance? Because
Speaker 1: some of those things that we're talking to ourselves about
Speaker 1: are important, right, Like it is important for us to
Speaker 1: make time for ourselves. It is good for kids to
Speaker 1: have some structure, bed time kind of thing. So what
Speaker 1: kind of language should we be using? Should what kind
Speaker 1: of language can we be using with ourselves to still
Speaker 1: do the things that may be helpful for us, but
Speaker 1: maybe not as judgment field.
Speaker 2: So it's really about accepting yourself where you are and
Speaker 2: recognizing that you want to do something differently or do
Speaker 2: something better right. And also when you accept yourself where
Speaker 2: you are, understand and recognize if you want to do
Speaker 2: the thing you think you should be doing. Right. So
Speaker 2: I should be putting my kids to bed at seven pm, Okay,
Speaker 2: if that's something you truly believe because you've looked at
Speaker 2: the science and you believe when kids go to bed
Speaker 2: at seven pm they do better in the mornings, they
Speaker 2: sleep better. Right, So you're aiming for something. You say,
Speaker 2: I want to put my kids to bed at seven pm.
Speaker 2: Right now, what we can make it to is eight.
Speaker 2: But I know it's something I want to work on.
Speaker 2: So maybe next week what I'll do is I'll start
Speaker 2: storytime at six instead of at six point thirty. Let's
Speaker 2: see if that gives us a little bit more time.
Speaker 2: The difference is that you've given your self space to grow.
Speaker 2: You've accepted right now, the way the house is working,
Speaker 2: we can't get to bed till eight. But if it
Speaker 2: feels really important to me to get them to bed
Speaker 2: at seven, then I'm going to adjust and try something
Speaker 2: different to see if that works. It's movement. When we
Speaker 2: should we get stuck I should do this at seven. Oh,
Speaker 2: I'm a bad mother. I've done the worst things in
Speaker 2: the world. And then you're just stuck in this storm
Speaker 2: of like, eugh, iickness, right versus the I want to
Speaker 2: do this, and so because I want to do this,
Speaker 2: let me try. Right, I should be more professional at work? Now?
Speaker 2: Why because back in the sixteen hundreds when we came
Speaker 2: up with professionalism and it was for white men. This
Speaker 2: is where it started. We think we should show up
Speaker 2: this way. No, right, I want to show up as
Speaker 2: my best self at work? What does that look like
Speaker 2: for me? And then you figure out what that is
Speaker 2: and then again find the culture. So it really is
Speaker 2: about taking out that should and using more language that
Speaker 2: says I accept where I'm at now. Now what do
Speaker 2: I want to do with where I'm at? Now? Do
Speaker 2: I want to make change? Do I want to actually
Speaker 2: create my own rules here? Right? Maybe you don't care
Speaker 2: about getting your kids to bed at seven, Maybe eight
Speaker 2: nine o'clock works for you because your kids sleep well
Speaker 2: in the morning. I don't know, but yes, got it.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, But first, a
Speaker 1: quick snippet of what's coming up next week on TVG.
Speaker 3: Why would we not focus on neuth mental health because
Speaker 3: our young people, they don't get those issues addressed as
Speaker 3: young people, They're going to grow into adulthood carrying those
Speaker 3: issues which you know well and talk about all the time.
Speaker 3: So so much of our experience as adults is rooted
Speaker 3: in what were our experiences as children and So why
Speaker 3: wouldn't we start the conversation with our young people? Why
Speaker 3: would we not want to support young adults who graduated
Speaker 3: high school and maybe in the military, out working or
Speaker 3: starting families or in college. All of those young people
Speaker 3: have needs, and those are periods of heavy transition, like
Speaker 3: you're going from let makes you the middle middle to
Speaker 3: high hi to college or the work or the military,
Speaker 3: you're getting married, and so finding yourself and trying to
Speaker 3: figure all that stuff out and not having mental health
Speaker 3: support is too much.
Speaker 1: So what kinds of things would be helpful for people
Speaker 1: to identify when they are shitting on themselves? What kinds
Speaker 1: of things should we be paying attention to?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I always tell people to start with noticing. The
Speaker 2: minute I say to somebody, be careful when you use should,
Speaker 2: just like you did just a second ago. You're like, oh,
Speaker 2: I should can just notice first? How often do shoulds
Speaker 2: come up in your life? When I work with my
Speaker 2: clients and we start talking about this, they're like, oh,
Speaker 2: I got to change my language around us because they
Speaker 2: start to become more aware. Awareness is like such a
Speaker 2: big first step. So you want to become aware first,
Speaker 2: and then once you become aware again that journal. Why
Speaker 2: is that a should in your life? Gotta understand, right?
Speaker 2: Why am I holding onto this should? I should put
Speaker 2: my kids to bed at seven? I should only give
Speaker 2: my kids healthy foods. They should not have McDonald's. Right,
Speaker 2: Why are you holding onto that? Well? You know they
Speaker 2: say that kids shouldn't have any fast food, and like,
Speaker 2: feel like I'm really not giving them the best things.
Speaker 2: All right, look at all the things you're doing. Oh
Speaker 2: but during the week you give your kids broccoli and
Speaker 2: grilled chicken and sweet potatoes, and then on Fridays they
Speaker 2: ask for McDonald's. Balance. Balance works, right? So I think
Speaker 2: we start with awareness and then once we identify where
Speaker 2: we tend to say should, start writing. Why am I
Speaker 2: holding onto this belief? Is it because I truly believe this?
Speaker 2: Or is it because society told me this is how
Speaker 2: it should be? Oh, look I said it, or my
Speaker 2: mom told me these are the rules I'm supposed to follow, right,
Speaker 2: or my dad or my caregivers or whoever my friends.
Speaker 2: This is what all my friends are doing. I need
Speaker 2: to be doing it too. So just understanding the source.
Speaker 1: I wonder, doctor Mail, if there are particular shoulds you
Speaker 1: have seen come up for black.
Speaker 2: Women Mmmm, that's such a great question. There's definitely a
Speaker 2: should related to parenting our kids. Right. My kid should
Speaker 2: show up at school, hair done, clothes the best they
Speaker 2: ever have been because we feel like we need to
Speaker 2: represent in a particular way. I hear things around. I
Speaker 2: should be a strong black woman because my ancestors have
Speaker 2: done X, Y Z, because that's what's expected of me.
Speaker 2: I should be careful with how loud I am in
Speaker 2: a workplace because if I'm too loud, they're going to
Speaker 2: criticize me. They're going to not give me the job
Speaker 2: I want. We can do. Shouldn'ts too write. I shouldn't
Speaker 2: ask for a raise because it's not my turn yet,
Speaker 2: even though I've working really hard for a year, all
Speaker 2: of these accomplishments I've had in my job, and then
Speaker 2: it makes sense to ask for a raise. But people
Speaker 2: get stuck in this idea of especially Black women, get
Speaker 2: stuck in this idea of not asking for raisis. I
Speaker 2: hear it a lot in our jobs. I should do
Speaker 2: this particular job because I need to provide for my family.
Speaker 2: I shouldn't pursue my passion because I need to show
Speaker 2: up in a particular way so that I can be
Speaker 2: respected as a black woman, respected as a black professional,
Speaker 2: I should be partnered. So those are some of the
Speaker 2: ones I hear a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not surprised by anything that you shared, and
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: I mean, because in fairness, some of that is what
Speaker 1: the world has told us, right, I mean, and we
Speaker 1: do know that there are expectations, and we know that
Speaker 1: racism and all the isms still exist. So how do
Speaker 1: you balance the reality of the world with the things
Speaker 1: that you would like to do that may be different
Speaker 1: from what the world real tills us. That is possible?
Speaker 2: I think it's such a great question. The one that
Speaker 2: was just coming up for me again was this idea
Speaker 2: around hair. Right. We hear it so often. I should
Speaker 2: wear my hair straight when I go to work, especially
Speaker 2: if I'm in a corporate environment. I can't wear my
Speaker 2: natural curly hair. They're not going to respect me, so
Speaker 2: I should do this. So, first of all, when we
Speaker 2: start to break free of some of these requirements and
Speaker 2: rules and should there's risk taking involved, right, because we
Speaker 2: are taking a risk. If the rule is every black
Speaker 2: woman at work, she's got her hair straight, and if
Speaker 2: I show up in these braids. I don't know what's
Speaker 2: going to happen, Right, You're going to take a risk,
Speaker 2: and you want to take what I call healthy risks. Right, So,
Speaker 2: even if you're deciding to quit a job, even if
Speaker 2: you're deciding to wear your hair differently than you ever have,
Speaker 2: I say, take a healthy risk because I want you
Speaker 2: to think it through. Impulsivity doesn't ever work well. But
Speaker 2: I want you to think about both the advantages to
Speaker 2: you doing what you want to do and the disadvantages.
Speaker 2: I'm a firm believer in finding a culture that works
Speaker 2: for you instead of you always trying to fit yourself
Speaker 2: uncomfortably into a culture that just doesn't work. But even
Speaker 2: that is a risk. Right. So if you say, at
Speaker 2: my job, I tried to wear braids and everybody was
Speaker 2: touching my hair and my superiors were looking at me strange,
Speaker 2: and I just felt uncomfortable. So I went back to
Speaker 2: wearing my hair straight because I needed to have my
Speaker 2: job fair. I want you to keep your job, but
Speaker 2: please start planning your exit strategy, because that's just the
Speaker 2: tip of the iceberg in terms of how an environment
Speaker 2: is going to try to control you. Right. And so
Speaker 2: the world is telling us particular things, and there are
Speaker 2: definitely spaces whereas black women, we are not going to
Speaker 2: feel comfortable no matter what we do. We can shift, change,
Speaker 2: tweak all we want, and they're still not going to
Speaker 2: accept us. So it is a matter of taking a
Speaker 2: healthy risk. All right, I can't be in this environment anymore.
Speaker 2: I'm planning my exit strategy. So in a year, I'm
Speaker 2: out of here. So I'm going to take everything I
Speaker 2: need from this job. I'm going to start putting my
Speaker 2: resume out, start networking, start figuring out how do I
Speaker 2: get out of here right, And in a year, I'm
Speaker 2: also going to start saving because in a year, I
Speaker 2: gotta go because the impact on me is going to
Speaker 2: be too great. So yes, the real world is out
Speaker 2: there and it is telling us particular things, and we
Speaker 2: have to find our spaces, our work environment, the right friends,
Speaker 2: the right partners, the right networking situations. You have to
Speaker 2: find the spaces where authenticity is valued.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you bringing in the piece around risk
Speaker 1: taking because I think that's important, right, Like some of
Speaker 1: the things that you're suggesting and that we may desire
Speaker 1: is a risk. What would you say to someone or
Speaker 1: how might we be able to cope if we take
Speaker 1: a risk, right, So maybe we're a little risk averse.
Speaker 1: We take a risk because we wanted to do something different,
Speaker 1: and then we don't get the expected results right, Like
Speaker 1: it turns out it was a bad calculation or you know,
Speaker 1: people just didn't accept it. What do we say to
Speaker 1: ourselves to move past that?
Speaker 2: So start with grace and compassion. It has to be first,
Speaker 2: because black women, Oh, we're the worst with our negative
Speaker 2: self talk. We go in, right, that was so dumb.
Speaker 2: You shouldn't have done that. There's a should, right, I
Speaker 2: can't believe it. Oh, I'm such an idiot for believing that.
Speaker 2: I knew this wasn't gonna work. See, this is what
Speaker 2: happens when you step outside the box. I'm not doing
Speaker 2: this anymore. But we have to have grace and self compassion.
Speaker 2: Speak kindly to ourselves first and foremost. Applaud yourself for
Speaker 2: taking a risk. It's not easy, right, it's scary af
Speaker 2: to take a risk sometimes, and so the fact that
Speaker 2: you had the courage to do it, applaud yourself for that,
Speaker 2: and have grace and compassion when it didn't work out, right.
Speaker 2: I think the second step there, though, is processing. We
Speaker 2: have to have a good squad, right, and I know
Speaker 2: you're so big on this, doctor Joy. Right, Having a
Speaker 2: good group, particularly of female friends, who hold you down,
Speaker 2: who cheer you on when things go well, who will
Speaker 2: be your support when things don't go so well. Those
Speaker 2: are the people you have to go to process. Don't
Speaker 2: keep this in right, go to them when the risk
Speaker 2: goes well too, But when the risk doesn't go well,
Speaker 2: use your people, right it. Tap in to your people, y'all.
Speaker 2: I need you. I need to talk through this because
Speaker 2: I tried something, it didn't go well. I'm feeling bad,
Speaker 2: but I need your help because those are the people
Speaker 2: who are going to be good reflections. They're gonna be
Speaker 2: good mirrors for you. They're gonna say, yeah, that was great.
Speaker 2: Sometimes things don't work out, or I see why you
Speaker 2: did that, and can I give you some feedback? Right,
Speaker 2: But we need those people in our lives, so grace
Speaker 2: and compassion first, watch that negative self talk, then tap
Speaker 2: into your squad.
Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: why black women are so critical of ourselves. And I
Speaker 1: don't know if you know any numbers of research that
Speaker 1: suggests this. I would love to hear it. I don't
Speaker 1: know that we are more critical on ourselves than anybody else,
Speaker 1: but we definitely do have a lot of negative self
Speaker 1: talk and can be very critical of ourselves. That I
Speaker 1: think then in turn becomes us being very critical of
Speaker 1: other people. So can you talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: why you think black women are so critical in our
Speaker 1: self talk.
Speaker 2: I wish I had specific stats. I don't. I can
Speaker 2: tell you anecdotally because my practice is probably about eighty
Speaker 2: percent women of color, and then I do have the
Speaker 2: other twenty percent that are white women. And I think
Speaker 2: it comes down to two things. I think one is
Speaker 2: sometimes the way we are parented, right, I hear a
Speaker 2: lot of women who have grown up with hypercritical parents.
Speaker 2: There wasn't a lot of room for mistakes, There wasn't
Speaker 2: a lot of room for risk taking, and in fact,
Speaker 2: there wasn't a lot of room for just problem solving
Speaker 2: and decision making. A lot of that was just done
Speaker 2: for us or put on us, or we're told what
Speaker 2: to do without being able to necessarily always use our
Speaker 2: own thoughts. And if something didn't go well, let's say
Speaker 2: a sea got brought home on the report card, or
Speaker 2: you got in trouble at school, or you were supposed
Speaker 2: to practice for an event and you didn't. The hell
Speaker 2: storm that comes down from parenting around a mistake or
Speaker 2: not doing something you were supposed to do. It's heavy
Speaker 2: and it's intense, and we learn from our parents in
Speaker 2: terms of how to react to a thing. So we
Speaker 2: get real critical because when we were young, those mistakes
Speaker 2: were huge, even though they really weren't supposed to make mistakes.
Speaker 2: As kids, we're supposed to mess up, right, But our
Speaker 2: parents are so quick to come for us that when
Speaker 2: we get older, that's what we know. Come for yourself
Speaker 2: when you've messed up. It's not really often taught grace
Speaker 2: and compassion, right. Can I share a small anecdote really
Speaker 2: quickly about this thinking. So I have three kids. I
Speaker 2: have a fourteen, eleven and a seven year old, and
Speaker 2: when my daughter was in seventh grade last year, she
Speaker 2: got caught cheating, and oh my goodness, I think this
Speaker 2: is the other piece of it. As black parents, we
Speaker 2: think I'm working so hard, I'm teaching you the right
Speaker 2: from the wrong. I'm busting my butt to make sure
Speaker 2: you get what you need, and then you do this
Speaker 2: it feels like a personal affront. So often right as parents,
Speaker 2: And I had to sit with myself for a second
Speaker 2: right and say it is not going to help me
Speaker 2: to go at this child and take everything that I'm
Speaker 2: feeling and put this on her. She already feels horrible.
Speaker 2: Charnie feels really bad because she knows how we are
Speaker 2: in our house, right, So for me to then go
Speaker 2: for her in that moment is only going to then
Speaker 2: make her more anxious and be more critical of herself
Speaker 2: as she gets older. So I know what it's like
Speaker 2: as a parent, especially as a black parent, because we're
Speaker 2: sitting here thinking our kids need to be representative of
Speaker 2: who we are, so we come down on them harder, right,
Speaker 2: And as black women, we grow up with that we've
Speaker 2: got to be the representation of black women. So if
Speaker 2: we mess up, the world is ending, and we've got
Speaker 2: to teach ourselves that the world is not ending. That
Speaker 2: everybody is a human and humans air, humans make mistakes.
Speaker 2: We've got to develop better self compassion.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you sharing that because I definitely was thinking,
Speaker 1: and I know you have three beautiful babies. I was
Speaker 1: gonna ask you, like, Okay, as a mom, what kinds
Speaker 1: of things can we be doing to not pass on
Speaker 1: some of that, right, because as I hear you talking,
Speaker 1: I know exactly what you're talking about, and I know
Speaker 1: exactly why many of our moms parented the way that
Speaker 1: they did and dads and caregivers, right, And I think
Speaker 1: we also need to look at how effective are those
Speaker 1: strategies and things anymore, And I think what you're arguing
Speaker 1: is that largely they are not, especially in terms of
Speaker 1: our long term mental health. So when I hear you say, Okay,
Speaker 1: she gets caught cheating, I'm thinking all of these things
Speaker 1: and now I have to figure out how to respond
Speaker 1: to her. What I hear you talking about is having
Speaker 1: to do a lot of regulation of yourself so that
Speaker 1: you can respond to her in a way that she
Speaker 1: does not internalize all this bad stuff about her. Can
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about what we need to
Speaker 1: be doing in those moments and what kind of work
Speaker 1: it takes to get to the place where you can,
Speaker 1: you know, regulate and parent in that way. I'm asking
Speaker 1: for myself.
Speaker 2: I hear it's hard. I'm just gonna say like, it's hard,
Speaker 2: full transparency. It was nice because I heard about this
Speaker 2: when she was not home, and then I had like
Speaker 2: two hours before she got home to like process with
Speaker 2: my husband, with my other mom friends who were all like,
Speaker 2: I know you're mad and right, so yes, there is
Speaker 2: some self work that has to happen. I think we
Speaker 2: need to be really clear about what kind of parents
Speaker 2: we want to be. Take a look at how you
Speaker 2: were parented by grandma, by mom, by dad, right by
Speaker 2: whoever was your caregiver, it was your aunt, whoever it was,
Speaker 2: And take a look and say to yourself what did
Speaker 2: I love about their parenting and what was really not great?
Speaker 2: What made me feel bad as a kid. Right, there's
Speaker 2: historical work we have to do because there's always connections,
Speaker 2: and then you have to I'm going to go back
Speaker 2: to it, have a really good squad, Right, Have people
Speaker 2: in your life that are trying to raise their kids
Speaker 2: similarly to how you're trying to raise them, who have
Speaker 2: similar values. This may be a different group of girlfriends
Speaker 2: than your girlfriends that you go to talk work related things, right,
Speaker 2: because your work related things. Those girlfriends may not have
Speaker 2: kids or maybe their great aunts and uncles, and they
Speaker 2: could still be helpful. But my point is have a
Speaker 2: good squad, because that's what helped me as soon as
Speaker 2: it happened. I picked up my phone and I'm like,
Speaker 2: you will not believe. And my husband is definitely a
Speaker 2: really good yin and yang to me, so he does
Speaker 2: not pop off as easily as I do. So he
Speaker 2: brought me down. But my girlfriends were great. They were like,
Speaker 2: everything you want to say to her, say it to us,
Speaker 2: which was such a good pointer. They're like, every single
Speaker 2: thing you want to be able to say to this child,
Speaker 2: say it to us, so you can just get it out.
Speaker 2: The emotion needs to go somewhere. I'm not telling you
Speaker 2: not to feel angry, because it makes sense to feel angry.
Speaker 2: I'm not telling you not to feel disappointed. That also
Speaker 2: makes sense, but find a different place to put it
Speaker 2: than on your child.
Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you for that, Doctor mill. More
Speaker 1: from our conversation after the break. So you've mentioned the
Speaker 1: importance of our squads at least twice now in our conversation,
Speaker 1: and again you know I am a big fan of that.
Speaker 1: But I also wonder, and you've already referenced this, that
Speaker 1: sometimes the shoulds that we get will sometimes come from
Speaker 1: the people in our lives, maybe including our squads. So
Speaker 1: how can we assess for ourselves if we may be
Speaker 1: unintentionally shoulting on other people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a great point. So a couple of things,
Speaker 2: and I think you know this and have said this too.
Speaker 2: First of all, don't be afraid to reconfigure the squad. Right.
Speaker 2: As we change and we shift, sometimes our friendships don't
Speaker 2: grow with us. And that's okay, season reason, lifetime. Right,
Speaker 2: Sometimes there were friendships that made sense when you are
Speaker 2: at a certain phase in your life, and as you
Speaker 2: move on to the next phase, they're not growing with you.
Speaker 2: They're not shifting with you, so it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2: So I do think that that's part of it, right,
Speaker 2: making sure your squad makes sense at the phase that
Speaker 2: you are in your life. But when we are to
Speaker 2: know if we're intentionally shoulting on other people, should there judgment? Right,
Speaker 2: So you're not only just assessing if you're shoulding, assess
Speaker 2: that you're judging? Right? Am I judging my friend? When
Speaker 2: my friend comes to me and says, I'll take a
Speaker 2: sensitive topic that has happened, right, I think that my
Speaker 2: child is trans and so I'm allowing them to transition.
Speaker 2: And then you get questions like are you sure that's
Speaker 2: something you want to do? I mean, isn't such and
Speaker 2: such a little young for that? All of that is
Speaker 2: disguised judgment, disguised because they're not saying that's a bad thing,
Speaker 2: don't do it, but that are you sure, don't you think?
Speaker 2: Blah blah blah? Right, that's disguised judgment. And if you
Speaker 2: find yourself doing the same thing, going to that friend
Speaker 2: who's about to quit their job, and you're like, are
Speaker 2: you sure you want to quit that job? I mean,
Speaker 2: don't they pay you one hundred thousand dollars a year?
Speaker 2: Can you make up that money somewhere else? That's judgment.
Speaker 2: That's your own sense of judging their decision that you're
Speaker 2: now putting on another person that does not feel good
Speaker 2: when you're trying to make a life transition or a pivot.
Speaker 2: So I think it's just listening to when you yourself
Speaker 2: have judgments or biases or fears. Right, when we see
Speaker 2: our friend getting ready to quit their job and you're like,
Speaker 2: I want to do that, but I could never Are
Speaker 2: you sure you want to do that? That's how it's
Speaker 2: going to come out.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you pointing that out right, because a lot
Speaker 1: of times our judgment is really based in our own
Speaker 1: fear or our own wish that we could do something differently,
Speaker 1: and now somebody else is doing it and it makes
Speaker 1: us feel bad, I think about ourselves. So in the
Speaker 1: example you gave, right, let's say somebody in your squad,
Speaker 1: I'm seeing you in there, Like, I want to leave
Speaker 1: this good government job, as people say, but I want
Speaker 1: to do something else. I want to travel abroad for
Speaker 1: a year. I want to do something completely different. What
Speaker 1: kinds of things might we say or respond that are
Speaker 1: not shitting on them?
Speaker 2: The first one is I love that I am big
Speaker 2: of this. I love that for you? That sounds so exciting.
Speaker 2: How'd you get here? Like? Why did you decide to
Speaker 2: do that? Well, the job has been really rough. I've
Speaker 2: been talking to you like I've just been feeling so
Speaker 2: unseen and my boss is racist. Wow, that's awesome. Like,
Speaker 2: I love that you have gotten to this place where
Speaker 2: you feel like you're ready to make this next step.
Speaker 2: How can I support you? End of story? Right, there's
Speaker 2: no well, how are you going to do that? And
Speaker 2: like a whole year of traveling abroad? Is that okay? Right?
Speaker 2: Have you talked to your husband? I mean, have you
Speaker 2: talked to your husband? Or your partner about that. That's
Speaker 2: not a judgmental question, right, that's just kind of a like, hey,
Speaker 2: have you like discussed this with the people in your life?
Speaker 2: What are they saying about it? Are you feeling supported?
Speaker 2: But the how can I support you? Is a really
Speaker 2: great non judgmental way to be there for your friends
Speaker 2: the excitement about what they've chosen, and y'all, tone matters.
Speaker 2: So if somebody comes to you and share something they're
Speaker 2: excited about and you're like, oh, that's cool, so let
Speaker 2: me talk to you about X, Y Z and YLB
Speaker 2: and if that is so clear that you actually do
Speaker 2: not care or share in their excitement about the thing, right,
Speaker 2: so like, let's actually feel enthusiastic about it. And if
Speaker 2: you're not feeling enthusiastic about it, sit back for a
Speaker 2: second and ask yourself, why am I not excited for
Speaker 2: my friend? Why am I not excited for my bestie? Right?
Speaker 2: She just came and shared amazing news with me. Why
Speaker 2: am I feeling like, oh, that's fine and moving on?
Speaker 2: Because there's something going on with you.
Speaker 1: So, doctor Mail, we have a shared love of pop
Speaker 1: culture and all things film, movie, podcast, all the things
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you can identify some of your favorite
Speaker 1: examples of women characters across tea, the books, and film
Speaker 1: who you've seen stop shooting on themselves and how it
Speaker 1: unlocks something for them.
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't know why being Mary Jane is coming
Speaker 2: to mind, even though that.
Speaker 1: Was what I was thinking. She was the first one
Speaker 1: that fassed into mind, like she's coming.
Speaker 2: To mind, even though that's been off for a little while.
Speaker 2: But I think Mary Jane had a lot of shoulds
Speaker 2: about who she should be professionally, who she should be dating, right,
Speaker 2: that is a big one, like I should be dating
Speaker 2: this really fancy, corporate whatever person, and I actually I am
Speaker 2: really feeling like I love the art teacher at the
Speaker 2: high school. Right. That wasn't who she loved, But there
Speaker 2: was just so much distinction between those two, and people
Speaker 2: have status wise or who I am I should be
Speaker 2: dating a certain person. But I felt like with Mary Jane,
Speaker 2: over time she let go of those shoulds and started
Speaker 2: just leaning into what made her happy, right in terms
Speaker 2: of her relationships, in terms of her work. Right, there
Speaker 2: was a passion she had for what she was doing,
Speaker 2: and like what it looked like to actually pursue that
Speaker 2: regardless of the judgment around her, Right, it just allowed
Speaker 2: her to feel better. I think at the end, right
Speaker 2: in that last sort of long episode they had or
Speaker 2: our movie, whatever they did, at the end, I think
Speaker 2: what I recognize is that she just started feeling better
Speaker 2: about her, Like there's joy when you let go of
Speaker 2: shoulds and lean into what actually works for you. I'm
Speaker 2: trying to think if there's another character that comes to mind.
Speaker 1: Have you watched the Belle Air reboot?
Speaker 2: I have?
Speaker 1: Ooh, okay, so I feel like all of the women
Speaker 1: characters there, like the Mom, Hillary an Ashley. Yes, I
Speaker 1: feel like all of them. Through the series, we've seen
Speaker 1: them let go of some of the shoulds about who
Speaker 1: they should be and do something very different.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, specifically I'm thinking about Hillary right, if
Speaker 2: you think about it too, Even again our long this
Speaker 2: dating piece, I think for a while she was hiding
Speaker 2: her relationship with Jazz because she thinks she should have
Speaker 2: been dating I mean, and she didn't start dating the
Speaker 2: football player, but like she should have been dating somebody else, Right,
Speaker 2: Jazz wasn't the person people would expect her to be with,
Speaker 2: and she experienced dissonance around that because that's who she liked.
Speaker 2: I actually liked how they changed it and made them
Speaker 2: a couple because there was always this fight against it
Speaker 2: in the original. But that was a big part. Even
Speaker 2: though we're talking about women. I saw it a lot
Speaker 2: with Vivian. But like Carlton, right, who Carlton was trying
Speaker 2: to be in that show was messing him up, right.
Speaker 2: It caused him to take drugs. It caused him to
Speaker 2: have so much jealousy and envy because he thought he
Speaker 2: should be a certain way and the people around him
Speaker 2: should show up a certain way. And it was so challenging. Right.
Speaker 2: I think Ashley with her sexuality for a while, she
Speaker 2: was sort of hiding that and should be straight. But
Speaker 2: I think once she came into a place where it
Speaker 2: was like, It's okay for me to like girls, and
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell people that she was able to
Speaker 2: have relationships, right, she likes somebody, She felt freer with
Speaker 2: her family, she could talk about it more freely. It
Speaker 2: was so empowering.
Speaker 1: Agreed, Agreed. I'm ready for the next season. I hope
Speaker 1: we get it very soon.
Speaker 2: I really like it too. I like them. It's a
Speaker 2: good show.
Speaker 1: So you've shared so much with us today, Doctor Miil.
Speaker 1: I wonder if you could summarize or give us three
Speaker 1: takeaways that you would like the community to have after
Speaker 1: checking out your conversation here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so definitely to stop shooting on yourself, right, And
Speaker 2: in order to do that, we have to develop an
Speaker 2: awareness around our shoulds and then work towards why we
Speaker 2: hold them and then what it looks like to let
Speaker 2: it go. That's a really long one. I think the
Speaker 2: second takeaway is taking some time to tap in and
Speaker 2: understand what brings you joy, what makes you tick. Right,
Speaker 2: so many of us deny and don't pay attention to
Speaker 2: what makes us tick. We're so busy following rules that
Speaker 2: are archaic and at a date and don't even make
Speaker 2: sense anymore, but we're still following them, right. So really,
Speaker 2: just taking time to tap in with yourself and really
Speaker 2: get to know yourself. And you can do that in
Speaker 2: so many different ways, but journaling is such a really
Speaker 2: great place to start. And I think the third one.
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed our conversation on parenting, and so I
Speaker 2: think making sure that number one, you have a great
Speaker 2: squad for feedback, and you have a great squad who
Speaker 2: you can go and you can give them all the
Speaker 2: stuff you would want to give to your kids in
Speaker 2: the heat of the moment, but also as a parent,
Speaker 2: like instead of getting caught up and how we should
Speaker 2: parent because our moms told us how to, because society
Speaker 2: tells us how to, really think about, how did I
Speaker 2: want to be parented? What kind of kids do I
Speaker 2: want to raise right? And how do I get closer
Speaker 2: to that based on the values the shoulds I let
Speaker 2: go of, letting go of some of these rules, like
Speaker 2: really again taking time to like understand if the shoulds
Speaker 2: are impacting your parenting and if they are, how do
Speaker 2: you let them go?
Speaker 1: Thank you for those So, where do we stay connected
Speaker 1: with you? Doctor Meiel? What is your website as well
Speaker 1: as any social media challenge you want to share?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, so it's really easy to remember. On all socials,
Speaker 2: I am doctor mel So It's literally i am d
Speaker 2: R M E L on all socials, I'm the most
Speaker 2: on Instagram and TikTok. And then my website is I
Speaker 2: amdoctormeil dot com.
Speaker 1: And can we find information about your coaching there?
Speaker 2: My website is currently being redesigned and launched in April,
Speaker 2: and that is when my coaching program will open. Up
Speaker 2: again right now. I'm not taking new members, but you
Speaker 2: go to my Instagram and click on my link tree.
Speaker 2: There is a waitlist sign up there for Limitless and Fearless.
Speaker 2: So if you are interested and once it launches again
Speaker 2: in April and you want to know more and find out,
Speaker 2: I'll also be doing some free webinars leading up to it,
Speaker 2: then just hop on my Instagram. My link tree is
Speaker 2: linked on TikTok too, and there's a waitlist. Join that
Speaker 2: waitlist and you will not miss a beat.
Speaker 1: Perfect. We'll be sure to include all of that in
Speaker 1: the show notes. Thank you so much for spending some
Speaker 1: time with us again, Doctor Mail, and I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me, Doctor Joy. As always,
Speaker 2: it is so easy to have conversation with you. I
Speaker 2: can't even believe the time has passed.
Speaker 1: Already, right right, Thank you, thank you so much. I'm
Speaker 1: so glad Doctor Mail was able to join us today
Speaker 1: to share her expertise. To learn more about her and
Speaker 1: her work, visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls
Speaker 1: dot com slash Session three point fifty seven, and don't
Speaker 1: forget to chext this episode two of your Girls right now.
Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check
Speaker 1: out our therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com
Speaker 1: slash directory. And if you want to continue digging into
Speaker 1: this topic or just be in community with other sisters,
Speaker 1: come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.
Speaker 1: It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for
Speaker 1: black women. You can join us at community dot Therapy
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced by Elise
Speaker 1: Ellis and Zaria Taylor. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford.
Speaker 1: Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week.
Speaker 1: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all
Speaker 1: real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 2: What's