Speaker 1: Hello, this is let's talk about mits baby, and I
Speaker 1: am your host live here with an episode to save
Speaker 1: my soul. That's a little dramatic, but like not really.
Speaker 1: Today I am here with one of two episodes today
Speaker 1: and Friday's episode, which will be collections of past episodes
Speaker 1: as I am sometimes wont to do when I need
Speaker 1: to survive. And in this time, we are looking at
Speaker 1: myths from the Bronze Age, or rather myths not from
Speaker 1: the Bronze Age, but which tell us something about how
Speaker 1: the cultural memory of the Bronze Age manifested in the
Speaker 1: later myths. So today we have actually, now that I
Speaker 1: say all of that, we have one one bit of
Speaker 1: the episode is absolutely a myth from the Bronze Age,
Speaker 1: and that is we are starting out with a little
Speaker 1: bit of the epic of Gilgamesh. I covered that back
Speaker 1: I don't even know when, but over two episodes, and
Speaker 1: this is just a little taste of those two episodes
Speaker 1: covering that myth from ancient Iraq. And then we are
Speaker 1: going to create of course, and looking at the myths
Speaker 1: of crete like Europa and Zeus and the sort of
Speaker 1: the mythological memory of creating from the levant the same
Speaker 1: people who would go on to help the Greeks invent
Speaker 1: their alphabet, those Phoenicians. Then, of course we are moving
Speaker 1: to the mainland to the myths of Mycenie and my
Speaker 1: favorite cursed family, those Tantalids and their horrifying familial relationships,
Speaker 1: and then of course the most famous woman of Sparta, Helen.
Speaker 1: We're gonna look at a little bit of that myth
Speaker 1: from a past episode, and of course some of the Iliad,
Speaker 1: because who doesn't want to listen to Patrick Less really
Speaker 1: and Hector, you know, everyone's favorite characters from the Iliad.
Speaker 1: These sections from past episodes were picked out by Michaela
Speaker 1: because she's an absolute gem who wants me to be
Speaker 1: able to continue to function and thus help me put
Speaker 1: together a couple of episodes that will allow me to
Speaker 1: take a little bit of a rest. If it hasn't
Speaker 1: been clear in past episodes. I'm really struggling. And while
Speaker 1: I loved the Bronze Age series so very much, it
Speaker 1: definitely didn't help the struggle as it was not remotely
Speaker 1: in my field of expertise. But it was a joy
Speaker 1: and I'm very glad we did it. In any case,
Speaker 1: today we're just looking at these past episodes. Some of
Speaker 1: them are from a very long time ago, some not
Speaker 1: quite so long ago. All of them are from much
Speaker 1: larger episodes featuring much more of these myths that do
Speaker 1: tell us something about this cultural memory of the Bronze Age.
Speaker 1: There is a Spotify playlist listed in the episode's description,
Speaker 1: and that has all of the original full length episodes.
Speaker 1: If you want to keep listening, if you want to
Speaker 1: return to the whole of the epic of Gilgamesh or
Speaker 1: my favorite cursed family, maybe a little bit, want to
Speaker 1: return to the Iliad, the most famous bit of cultural memory.
Speaker 1: All of that is available in the episode of description.
Speaker 1: If you are so inclined, this is episode two sixty.
Speaker 1: Archaic myth says cultural Memory of the Bronze Age Gilgamesh
Speaker 1: is a king of Uruk, a godly king, part god
Speaker 1: and part human. It's believed that the story is indeed
Speaker 1: based on a real king. That I suppose we have
Speaker 1: to assume that king was all human. You never know,
Speaker 1: though the Mesopotamians were far more advanced. Perhaps they did
Speaker 1: have a god king too. Gilgamesh, king of Uruk, is
Speaker 1: said to be blessed. He's in the style of Heracles,
Speaker 1: He's strong, wise, beautiful. He's everything you want a king
Speaker 1: to be and more. He's also a dick, another standard
Speaker 1: king trait. I would argue Gilgamash is becoming tyrannical, and
Speaker 1: his people are attempting to rise up against him in
Speaker 1: whatever way they can. Gilgamesh is oppressive. He's forcing the
Speaker 1: men to take part in games of strength of forced labor.
Speaker 1: It's not entirely clear which, but they're being oppressed and
Speaker 1: forced into something, and the women well as per mythology,
Speaker 1: Gilgamesh is forcing all the women to have sex with him,
Speaker 1: usually on their wedding nights, before they have sex with
Speaker 1: their new husband, but after they're married. He's an incredibly
Speaker 1: classy man, and I would say that the Greeks likely
Speaker 1: found some inspiration in Old Gilgamesh when they were developing
Speaker 1: their own mythologies. There's some similarities there. In answer to
Speaker 1: these actions by Gilgamesh, the people of Uruk call upon
Speaker 1: their god to help them against this tyrannical king. They
Speaker 1: call to the goddess Aruru, the goddess who created humankind
Speaker 1: to begin with. They ask her to create something that
Speaker 1: could stand up to Gilgamesh, as he is two third's god.
Speaker 1: The people themselves don't stand a chance against him, and
Speaker 1: so a Ruru creates a man, a wild man named Enkidu,
Speaker 1: much like the creation story of the Greeks. Aruru creates
Speaker 1: this new man from a lump of clay, and Kidu
Speaker 1: rivals Gilgamesh in size and strength, but he begins his
Speaker 1: life living wildly amongst the animals and not among the
Speaker 1: other humans of Uruk. And Kidu is discovered by a
Speaker 1: young man, a trapper. He doesn't live in the city
Speaker 1: of Uruk, but in the countryside. His livelihood is trapping
Speaker 1: and hunting animals, but in Kidu is preventing him from
Speaker 1: doing this, and Kidu releases the trapped animals and keeps
Speaker 1: them safe from hunters. But the trapper can see from
Speaker 1: a far that in Kidu is no match for him.
Speaker 1: He's enormous and so strong the man doesn't dare approach
Speaker 1: him himself. The trapper tells all of this to his father,
Speaker 1: who suggests he go find Gilgamesh in Uruk. Gilgamesh himself
Speaker 1: is enormous and strong, and so if anyone can stop
Speaker 1: this wild man from freeing all the animals and causing
Speaker 1: all this trouble, it's Gilgamesh. So the trapper visits Gilgamash
Speaker 1: in Uruk, and the king has a plan. The plan
Speaker 1: may also have originated with the trapper's father, but a
Speaker 1: work that's thousands of years old and also translated from
Speaker 1: a very ancient language and was originally written in verse
Speaker 1: on clay tablets means following along is sometimes left to
Speaker 1: the imagination. So Gilgamesh has a plan to lure in Kidu,
Speaker 1: this mysterious wild man from the forest where he's been
Speaker 1: causing real trouble for this trapper man. Take Shamhat with you,
Speaker 1: he tells the trapper. She'll be able to lure this
Speaker 1: man from the forests. You see, sham Hat is what
Speaker 1: we would now politely refer to as a sex worker,
Speaker 1: but as we all know, it's the oldest profession in
Speaker 1: the world. Get yours, ladies, So sham Hat is the
Speaker 1: real savior here. Sham Hat goes with the trapper back
Speaker 1: to where he's been seeing in key Do, and she
Speaker 1: approaches this enormous, super strong wild man to entice in
Speaker 1: key Too, And on the instruction of the trapper, Shamhat
Speaker 1: legit just strips down to nothing and walks up to
Speaker 1: him like Hi, I'm a naked woman. And that's really
Speaker 1: all you need to know, and it is she walks
Speaker 1: up to him naked and in key do is basically
Speaker 1: just like, yep, let's do this, And so they have
Speaker 1: a lot of sex. It's said that Shamht here does
Speaker 1: the work of a man. I think that basically just
Speaker 1: means she takes control of the sex they're having, which
Speaker 1: really is just refreshing. Would you look at this, a mathware,
Speaker 1: A woman is all, let's have some wild, consensual sex
Speaker 1: in the forest, you hairy, unwashed, wild man. They do
Speaker 1: this for six days and seven nights. Yeah, six days
Speaker 1: and seven nights, and not on and off. No, because,
Speaker 1: as it's translated here, m hm and Kedu is erect
Speaker 1: for six days and seven nights. And after all that,
Speaker 1: Shamhat very easily convinces and Ketu to return to Uruk
Speaker 1: with her. She tells him about the gods of the
Speaker 1: city Anu and Ishtar, and of Gilgamesh, the big strong king.
Speaker 1: And Ketu is keen. He's gotten the taste of living
Speaker 1: amongst humans and he's down for more of it. I
Speaker 1: will absolutely come along with you, he tells Shamhat, and
Speaker 1: I will roll up to the city of Uruk and
Speaker 1: make very clear that I am stronger and mightier than Gilgamesh,
Speaker 1: and I'll just mix things up in the city, keep
Speaker 1: it fresh. Shamhat tries to tone down in Ketu's plans. Here, Nah,
Speaker 1: Gilbleish is pretty impressive. She tells him he's blessed by
Speaker 1: the gods and you really shouldn't fuck with him. Shamhat
Speaker 1: sen Kido to come back to Uric with her, but
Speaker 1: she doesn't want him to die the moment he gets there.
Speaker 1: Europa was, of course, originally from Venetia, where she was
Speaker 1: a princess, daughter of the King of Tyr and sister
Speaker 1: to my beloved hero Cadmus. Like so many victims of Zeus,
Speaker 1: Europa was minding her business one morning, out picking flowers
Speaker 1: by the shore with some of her friends and servants.
Speaker 1: According to the Alexandrian poet Moshus, retold by Edith Hamilton,
Speaker 1: Europa had woken from a dream that she couldn't shake.
Speaker 1: She dreamt of two continents, each shaped as a woman
Speaker 1: possessed by a woman, and they both tried to claim
Speaker 1: Europa as their own. One Asia said she had berthed
Speaker 1: Europa and so owned her. The other was nameless and
Speaker 1: told Europa that Zeus would give her to this nameless continent.
Speaker 1: She was shaken and didn't want to try to sleep again,
Speaker 1: so she and her friends and servants wandered off to
Speaker 1: find themselves. Where they were then when Zeus came picking
Speaker 1: flowers by the shore. There, he sees her and he
Speaker 1: wants her. He will take her. But Zeus is, you know,
Speaker 1: both creative and utterly horrible, So he comes to Europa
Speaker 1: as a beautiful, mesmerizing white bull. Apollodorus tells Us that
Speaker 1: its breath smelled of roses. If you want to understand
Speaker 1: just how appealing Zeus made himself to this young girl.
Speaker 1: The bull catches Europa's attention right along the seashore, and
Speaker 1: she climbs aboard its back in an almost trance like state.
Speaker 1: In an instant before Europa could even blink, let alone
Speaker 1: any of her friends or servants could do anything to
Speaker 1: stop what was about to happen, or to help her
Speaker 1: at all, Zeus, as this sparkling white bull, leapt into
Speaker 1: the sea and swims off. He swims and swims across
Speaker 1: the Mediterranean until he comes upon an island. By the
Speaker 1: time they reach the island, Europa is well aware that
Speaker 1: she is not riding on the back of a real bull.
Speaker 1: It's simply not possible. No, she is certainly on the
Speaker 1: back of a god in disguise. She isn't stupid. She
Speaker 1: knows what that means. Women of greeg mythology learned fast
Speaker 1: on that front. Zeus finally drops Europa on the island
Speaker 1: of Crete, a large island north of Egypt. He doesn't
Speaker 1: choose this island randomly, It's quite intentional, whether it's for love,
Speaker 1: as this poet retold by Edith Hamilton, or simply Zeus's desires,
Speaker 1: which we all know well of. He brings her to
Speaker 1: the island on which he was raised, away from Kronos's
Speaker 1: prying eyes. You see, Zeus was raised on Mount Ida
Speaker 1: on Crete, secreted away from his father, who was, you know,
Speaker 1: in the habit of eating his children another of my
Speaker 1: favorite stories. Obviously, He brings her there to found a
Speaker 1: dynasty on the island, and in order to do that,
Speaker 1: as is Zeus's constant and terrific way, he rapes her.
Speaker 1: This poet would have you believe it's romantic. I beg
Speaker 1: to differ.
Speaker 2: The Minoans. The term Monoans came from this ancient king Minos,
Speaker 2: and he was mythologically the son of Zeus and Europa.
Speaker 2: Zeus and Europa had three sons, and Minos was kind
Speaker 2: of in competition with his two brothers on who would
Speaker 2: be the king of Crete. I guess Minos did officially
Speaker 2: ascend the throne, but his brothers were basically like we
Speaker 2: all know, and they try to take it from him,
Speaker 2: you know how brothers can be always stealing kingships. Minus
Speaker 2: decides that in order to defeat his brothers, or I
Speaker 2: guess just sort of, he has already kings so we
Speaker 2: basically get rid of his brothers. I don't know. He's
Speaker 2: against them in some way, and he asks Poseidon for
Speaker 2: help in defeating his brothers in whatever way he needs to.
Speaker 2: Poseidon is of course the god of the sea. He's
Speaker 2: also the god of horses, but don't ask me why. Anyway,
Speaker 2: Minus asks Poseidon for help. He prays to Poseidon asking
Speaker 2: him to send a snow white bull as a show
Speaker 2: of support. Let's ride another bull. A white bull is,
Speaker 2: of course, how his father seduced his mother, which I
Speaker 2: think makes this a hint creepier. So Minus asked for
Speaker 2: this bull, and Poseidon is a nice guy, and he
Speaker 2: sends it to him along with a show of support
Speaker 2: for the king, or I guess this bull kind of
Speaker 2: is the show of support. So now there's this fancy
Speaker 2: white bull hanging around canasas. Minus is then expected to
Speaker 2: kill the bull to show that he's honoring Poseidon for
Speaker 2: this super pointless and pretty creepy gift. Needless animal death
Speaker 2: if I've ever seen one but spoilies. Minos doesn't kill
Speaker 2: the bull. He thinks it's just too damn pretty. He's
Speaker 2: a sucker for a beautiful bull. I think it runs
Speaker 2: in the family. Poseidon is not psyched by this pretty
Speaker 2: obvious betrayal, and he's basically like, well, fuck you then, Minos,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna totally fuck up your life now. And he
Speaker 2: does a little godly magic and he makes Minus his
Speaker 2: wife Pacife fall truly, madly, deeply in love with this bull,
Speaker 2: and Godly magic is pooned as fuck my friends, because
Speaker 2: boy does she fall in love. Meanwhile, in the lives
Speaker 2: of people not in love with bulls, Minos also has
Speaker 2: his own personal inventor. This is a fellow by the
Speaker 2: name of Daedalus, and he lives on the island of
Speaker 2: Crete with his son Icarus. Daedalus is awesome. He's basically
Speaker 2: the king of fucking crazy, incredible inventions. So Daedalus, this
Speaker 2: resident inventor, is called to see Pacife. See, she's been
Speaker 2: hanging out with her new love lately, this white bull,
Speaker 2: and she's been feeling kind of frustrated. See as much
Speaker 2: as she is truly, madly, deeply in love with this
Speaker 2: rando animal, the animal just doesn't seem to be into
Speaker 2: her unrequited love. She's pretty worked up about it, you know,
Speaker 2: she's feeling forlorn, melancholy. She's walking around the palace just
Speaker 2: houghing in sadness and frankly in sexual frustration. Finally, she
Speaker 2: turns to Daedalus. He's called in to see her, and
Speaker 2: she asks him for a simple, totally normal and not
Speaker 2: at all creepy invention. She wants him to make her
Speaker 2: a wooden cow, Yes, a hollow wooden cow. Do you
Speaker 2: see where I'm going with this, because I will tell
Speaker 2: you where I'm going with this. Pascife wants Daedalist to
Speaker 2: make her a hollow, wooden cow that she can hide in.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, And boy does Daedalist deliver. He creates a
Speaker 2: cow that is realistic enough to convince the bull that
Speaker 2: it is indeed a real cow. The bull is suddenly
Speaker 2: super interested, because you know, he's into other cows, unlike someone,
Speaker 2: or I guess too much like someone.
Speaker 1: Where we return to our cursed family, Pelops has been
Speaker 1: ruling the king of Olympia quite happily for a long time.
Speaker 1: For a while, he was thinking, maybe there isn't really
Speaker 1: a curse at all, Maybe it's just the ramblings of
Speaker 1: a guy he threw off a cliff and it won't
Speaker 1: actually have any effect. Then one day he learns from
Speaker 1: yes an oracle that a son of Pelops should be
Speaker 1: king of my scene. The trouble is, Pelops has two sons,
Speaker 1: Atreus and Thiastes, on the order of their father and
Speaker 1: the hope that they will be king. Atreus and Thiistes
Speaker 1: travel to the city of Mycenae, both expecting to claim
Speaker 1: the throne, and that's when things go really downhill for
Speaker 1: the family of Pelops. Hermes, hell bent on implementing the
Speaker 1: curse issued by his dying son, sends a shepherd to
Speaker 1: my scene. The shepherd brings with him a golden lamb
Speaker 1: that he says has apparently been miraculously born that way.
Speaker 1: According to the Mycenaeans, the lamb is an obvious sign
Speaker 1: of the kingship of the region. For some reason, gold
Speaker 1: livestock guys watch out for it. It means they're going
Speaker 1: to be the ruler of the land. Atreus quickly claims
Speaker 1: that he is the rightful ruler of Mycenae because the
Speaker 1: shepherd has given him the golden lamb personally, obviously, he says,
Speaker 1: that's what it meant. Obviously. Atreus, entirely certain that he
Speaker 1: is now meant to be king, begins preparing for the
Speaker 1: coronation golden lamb after all, but his brother Thiestes isn't
Speaker 1: giving up so easily. Thiestes seduces Aeropay, Atreus's wife. He
Speaker 1: convinces her to give him the golden lamb, And so
Speaker 1: when all the important people of the region get together
Speaker 1: for the ceremony to choose their new king, it's Thiistes
Speaker 1: that rolls up with the gold, gold and lamb, not Atreus.
Speaker 1: And so it's Thiistes that is crowned king of my scene.
Speaker 1: Dont dun, duh. But it isn't over yet, Because this
Speaker 1: is Greek mythology, and it's called the curse on the
Speaker 1: house of Atreus and not peel Ups. For a reason,
Speaker 1: see Zeus wants Atreus to be the king of my scene.
Speaker 1: He doesn't much care for Thiastes, though I'm not sure why.
Speaker 1: So Zeus, now working to make Atrius the king, causes
Speaker 1: the sun to move in the wrong direction. This, as
Speaker 1: you might imagine, causes people down on Earth to freak
Speaker 1: out a little bit. I mean, big, very high profile
Speaker 1: change in the way the world operates. Anyway, they were
Speaker 1: worked up. Continuing on with his plan, Zeus sends Hermes
Speaker 1: to whisper in Atrius's ear. Following Hermes's instructions, Atreus then
Speaker 1: tells the people of my scene that the rightful king
Speaker 1: will be shown by a sign from the gods that's
Speaker 1: much more impressive than some weirdly golden animal, and with that,
Speaker 1: Zeus causes the sun to return to its rightful root
Speaker 1: through the sky. The people are, of course relieved by
Speaker 1: this development. They also recognize that this is obviously what
Speaker 1: was meant by that earlier foretelling, and obviously that means
Speaker 1: that Atreus should in fact be king of Mycenae. Obviously,
Speaker 1: it's all very obvious so Atreus becomes king, but the
Speaker 1: madness isn't over yet. Diestes is banished from the kingdom
Speaker 1: for what he's done, seducing Atreus's wife and stealing the
Speaker 1: precious golden livestock bad news. Atreus is, of course angry
Speaker 1: with his brother and his wife. Shit has gone down,
Speaker 1: and so the immediate obvious thing to do is to
Speaker 1: drown his wife air Opay, you know, as you do
Speaker 1: when you're mad. Best solution murder, But that's not enough.
Speaker 1: Atreus is still pissed. Becoming king is apparently all he
Speaker 1: cares about in the world, because he's really willing to
Speaker 1: function up because his brother and white Pad you know,
Speaker 1: prevented him from being king. He so that's like a
Speaker 1: real great guy. Atreus tells his brother that he's been forgiven,
Speaker 1: so Thiistes returns to my cnae thinking it's all good.
Speaker 1: No news on whether it's red flag to Thistes that
Speaker 1: Aeropay has been drowned, but all the same, Atreus invites
Speaker 1: Thiistes to a reconciliation celebration feast in honor of these brothers.
Speaker 1: Burying the hatchet. How sweet? Right for dinner, Atreus kills Thiistes' sons,
Speaker 1: cuts them up, cooks them, and feeds them to his brother.
Speaker 1: There's a really pleasant theme in this family. Now we
Speaker 1: all remember how the gods feel about cannibalism, particularly when
Speaker 1: it's a family member, big big no no, thankfully unknown
Speaker 1: in most polite societies, but the gods particularly found this
Speaker 1: to be the worst of the worst. We're told that
Speaker 1: the sky darkens as Atreus commits this crime, that the
Speaker 1: sun hides from the site. Thiastes is feeling particularly famished,
Speaker 1: and he eats the food, happily filling himself right up. Finally,
Speaker 1: he wonders aloud, where are my son's Atrius then lifts
Speaker 1: the lid on a serving dish that has gone unnoticed
Speaker 1: in it where Thiistes' sons hands and feet and heads.
Speaker 1: Thistes leaps from the table, losing his damn mind. He
Speaker 1: yells a curse at Atreus, asking that his house may fall.
Speaker 1: So we all know that Helen eventually goes with Paris,
Speaker 1: whether she likes it or not, as you'll hear in
Speaker 1: this Friday's Reading episode, and as you all well know,
Speaker 1: this is because of the judgment of Paris. The silly
Speaker 1: contest between Athena Aphrodite and hera about who is the loveliest,
Speaker 1: a contest that is adjudicated by Paris for some reason.
Speaker 1: But does Helen go with Paris willingly or is she taken?
Speaker 1: That is the age old question of the Trojan War.
Speaker 1: How much say did she actually have? Of course, regardless,
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone could have guessed that it would
Speaker 1: spawn quite the war that it did, so I'm not
Speaker 1: placing any blame here, but the question of her agency
Speaker 1: in the matter is deeply fascinating and deeply up for debate.
Speaker 1: So let's dive into what we do and do not
Speaker 1: know about Paris and Helen's departure from Sparta. First, according
Speaker 1: to most tellings of it, Menelais was away at the time.
Speaker 1: He was called off to some business on crete, leaving
Speaker 1: the pair alone. Of course, not actually alone. They would
Speaker 1: have had loads of other people the Spartan house both
Speaker 1: free and enslaved, but Helen was left to be the
Speaker 1: head of the house in whatever way women were allowed,
Speaker 1: and thus she was the person determining the xenia of
Speaker 1: it all. Remember, xenia is the rule of hospitality that
Speaker 1: was vital in the ancient Greek world, particularly in stories
Speaker 1: from their mythology, everything comes down to Xenia, whether the
Speaker 1: guest was a good guest and the host was a
Speaker 1: good host. It's very much a give and take relationship,
Speaker 1: but when you fuck it up, you're in real trouble. Paris,
Speaker 1: just by visiting Sparta with this secret desire to run
Speaker 1: off with Helen, is breaking Xenia, though no one knows
Speaker 1: it until the truth comes out. And not only is
Speaker 1: he about to spit in the face of his hosts
Speaker 1: by running off with Helen, but they also steal a
Speaker 1: huge amount of Spartan treasure. One thing I noticed when
Speaker 1: researching this is often Helen is described in the Iliad
Speaker 1: alongside the wealth of menelaus As though she is part
Speaker 1: of that wealth, but also that there is a hell
Speaker 1: of a lot of gold and other treasure that is
Speaker 1: at stake in addition to a wife. The two go
Speaker 1: off while Menelaias is away, taking with them so much
Speaker 1: of the Spartan treasure, and they sail off into the sunset.
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't know what time of day it was,
Speaker 1: but it certainly sounds better if they're sailing off into
Speaker 1: the sunset. Off they go, No matter the time of day,
Speaker 1: stopping en route on an island where we are told
Speaker 1: they have sex again consensual tough to say. It's not
Speaker 1: clear one way or the other, but like so many
Speaker 1: instances like these, that could very well just be because
Speaker 1: the men writing the stories down or telling them in
Speaker 1: songs didn't much care how the women felt. The purpose
Speaker 1: was to explain the origins of the war to exemplify
Speaker 1: Helen and Paris's betrayal of Menilaus. Some say they went
Speaker 1: straight to Troy, Others that they wandered around Phoenicia for
Speaker 1: a while. Still more that suggests that in the time
Speaker 1: it took them to reach Troy, Helen had already given
Speaker 1: birth to a child of Paris's. That would certainly be
Speaker 1: a long wander. No one seems quite certain how long
Speaker 1: it took, but it seems to me the most logical
Speaker 1: timeline is a fairly quick arrival in Troy with no
Speaker 1: child of the two. But still we're asking the big question.
Speaker 1: Did Helen want to go? Did she fall in love
Speaker 1: with Paris and leave with him happily? Was this some
Speaker 1: kind of epic love story for the ages? Did Paris
Speaker 1: convince her to go that she would have had a
Speaker 1: better life with him off in Troy. Did Paris seduce her,
Speaker 1: using his handsomeness that seems equal to Helen's beauty to
Speaker 1: draw her in in an almost purely sexual encounter. Did
Speaker 1: that happen? Maybe Helen was willing to have sex with
Speaker 1: him before realizing that this meant she would have to
Speaker 1: leave with him, because if anyone in Sparta found out,
Speaker 1: she'd be well and truly fucked. Or was it a
Speaker 1: straight up abduction, a story of a horrible kidnapping and
Speaker 1: eventual assault by Paris. Like so much of Greek myth,
Speaker 1: it really depends on who you ask. In most of
Speaker 1: the very oldest sources on this topic, the question of
Speaker 1: why any of this happened typically comes down to simply
Speaker 1: divine intervention. Paris picked Aphrodite in the judgment of Paris,
Speaker 1: and that was the end of it. She promised him
Speaker 1: the most beautiful woman in the world, and she followed through.
Speaker 1: According to the work called the Kippris or the Kypria,
Speaker 1: which is one of the lost epics surrounding the story
Speaker 1: of the Trojan War, it was as simple as that
Speaker 1: Aphrodite brought the two together and off they went. The Kippris,
Speaker 1: though lost is talked about enough that we know it's
Speaker 1: basically about the origins of the Trojan war. It's named
Speaker 1: for Aphrodite, the Kyprian goddess. Meanwhile, well in the Iliad itself,
Speaker 1: it remains pretty vague, with Helen only lamenting that it
Speaker 1: ever happened at all, rather than much of anything about
Speaker 1: her own choices in the matter. There's a moment where
Speaker 1: she's speaking with the Trojans, particularly Priam, and they're looking
Speaker 1: down upon the battlefield, taking note of the Greeks laying siege.
Speaker 1: Priam asks her to speak of her old husband, Menelaeus,
Speaker 1: and asks her to tell him about the other Greeks
Speaker 1: that are assembled there, to which Helen replies, quote, Sir,
Speaker 1: father of my husband, dear and reverend in my eyes,
Speaker 1: would that I had chosen death rather than to have
Speaker 1: come here with your son, far from my bridal chamber,
Speaker 1: my friends, my darling daughter, and all the companions of
Speaker 1: my girlhood. But it was not to be, and my
Speaker 1: lot is one of tears and sorrow. As much as
Speaker 1: Helen's phrasing here could suggests that she's taking some kind
Speaker 1: of accountability, it's actually in direct response to Priam telling
Speaker 1: her that he knows it isn't her fault, that none
Speaker 1: of this is her fault, and that the gods are
Speaker 1: to blame. Meanwhile, the Greeks during and after the war
Speaker 1: do love to blame Helen. So what about the idea
Speaker 1: that Paris took her quite literally by force, a violent
Speaker 1: abduction that would then ultimately lead to a violent assault,
Speaker 1: That too, is never really explicit. The idea of that
Speaker 1: kind of encounter has certainly emerged, but it didn't necessarily
Speaker 1: exist in the ancient world, or at least in the
Speaker 1: ancient sources.
Speaker 2: That we have.
Speaker 1: Okay, what about Helen leaving quite willingly, happily by her
Speaker 1: own explicit choice, That in fact does exist, and at
Speaker 1: least one fragmentary source that survives. It's a fragment attributed
Speaker 1: to al Caius, but I'm reading it quoted in Betany
Speaker 1: Hughes's book on Helen. It's noted in the end episode's description.
Speaker 1: So the fragment of this poem goes quote and fluttered
Speaker 1: the heart of our give. Helen in her breast, maddened
Speaker 1: with passion for the man from Troy, the trader guest,
Speaker 1: she followed him over the sea in his ship, leaving
Speaker 1: her child at home and her husband's richly covered bed,
Speaker 1: her heart persuaded by desire. This is a notable fragment,
Speaker 1: but to me it sounds a lot more like the
Speaker 1: blame that we hear placed on Helen in the place
Speaker 1: like Eschylus's Agamemnon, or even just in the references to
Speaker 1: her by the Greeks and the Iliad who are always
Speaker 1: going on about how much better a husband Menelaus. Was
Speaker 1: this idea that she just up and left her husband
Speaker 1: on a whim because a hot guy rolled into town.
Speaker 1: These suggestions are certainly meant to place more blame on her,
Speaker 1: but they can also obviously be read as simply a
Speaker 1: woman doing what she wanted. If you imagine Helen's marriage
Speaker 1: to Menelaus to be less than ideal, to not have
Speaker 1: any love in it at all, then why wouldn't she
Speaker 1: want to leave her home with this stranger, this beautiful
Speaker 1: man from the east who's come professing his love. Could
Speaker 1: she have foreseen a war that brought all the Greeks
Speaker 1: together against Troy? Certainly not, because the idea of all
Speaker 1: the Greeks coming together to do something like this was
Speaker 1: unheard of. It's part of what makes the Eliot notable
Speaker 1: in the first place. This idea that Helen went quite
Speaker 1: willingly and sometimes quite maliciously gets taken up by later
Speaker 1: poets too. Apollodorus describes her as quite callously leaving behind
Speaker 1: her much better husband and child. And of course then
Speaker 1: there's Avid. His heroities include a letter from Paris to
Speaker 1: Helen and a letter from Helen to Paris. I won't
Speaker 1: say too much about these because you just know I'm
Speaker 1: reading them to you on Friday's episode Who, but Avid
Speaker 1: certainly takes his idea of Helen to another level. Yes,
Speaker 1: he makes her leave willingly, but he does add a
Speaker 1: bit more depth to it, and a bit more humming
Speaker 1: and hawing and calling out Paris for his failure to
Speaker 1: adhere to Xenia, to his insult on Menelais for even
Speaker 1: showing up there in the first place. But well, honestly,
Speaker 1: the letter from Paris to Helen is the one that's
Speaker 1: the really good stuff. It's it's truly something else.
Speaker 2: You're going to love it.
Speaker 1: So sure, we do have all these varying notions on
Speaker 1: why Helen left and just how much agency she had
Speaker 1: or didn't have, But if we're sticking to the sources
Speaker 1: from those earliest days, those that surround the Iliad and
Speaker 1: the Odyssey, and those works themselves. The main answer for
Speaker 1: all of this mess is quite simply the gods. It's
Speaker 1: all Aphrodite's fault, because regardless of anything else, Aphrodite controls love.
Speaker 1: One could really blame Aphrodite for any messes that they
Speaker 1: make when it comes to love. But in this case
Speaker 1: we have explicit evidence that Aphrodite instructed Paris to go
Speaker 1: take Helen, that she may have even made him love her,
Speaker 1: and that she at least in part convinced Helen to
Speaker 1: go with him, have made Helen outright love Paris, but
Speaker 1: she certainly made her go with him. Patrickless, disguised as Achilles,
Speaker 1: and the Mermidons swarm the battlefield, startling everyone there. No
Speaker 1: one thought they'd see Achilles fighting in this battle. It's
Speaker 1: been too long and there's been too much death already.
Speaker 1: But now the Trojan spot Achilles is shining armor as
Speaker 1: he rages towards them on his chariot, Mrmadons streaming behind him.
Speaker 1: The Trojans are terrified. They realize that Achilles must have
Speaker 1: finally let go of his anger, probably because of how
Speaker 1: close they've gotten to the Greek ships, having set one
Speaker 1: on fire just moments before Achilles came after them. They
Speaker 1: look around wildly, hoping to find means of escaping. Patrick
Speaker 1: Less himself is full of energy. Appearing as he is
Speaker 1: in Achilles' armor. It makes him feel powerful, like he
Speaker 1: can do anything Achilles can. He throws his spear and
Speaker 1: it draws blood. He kills countless Trojans in his wake
Speaker 1: as he thunders through the battlefield, killing so many in
Speaker 1: his path. Patrickluss finally reaches the gates of Troy with
Speaker 1: the Mirmidons, but the gods can't let him get that close,
Speaker 1: and Apollo appears hell bent on ending Patrickluss's life before
Speaker 1: he can defeat the Trojans. First, he yells down to him,
Speaker 1: telling Patrickluss that he isn't faded to defeat the Trojans.
Speaker 1: Now he should turn back. The Trojans must fall to
Speaker 1: a greater man than he. Hearing this, Patrickless hesitates a little.
Speaker 1: Apollo meanwhile, now goes to Hector. He transforms himself into
Speaker 1: a powerful man known to Hector, and he riles in
Speaker 1: my mind up, telling him to go straight at Patrickless.
Speaker 1: Hector's motivated by this and He brings all his men
Speaker 1: with him as he goes at Patrickless, ignoring all other
Speaker 1: Greeks in his path. He knows who he wants to kill,
Speaker 1: and he doesn't much care if others escape in the process.
Speaker 1: Patrickluss sees Hector coming and he throws his spear, but
Speaker 1: it doesn't hit Hector. It misses him and instead hits
Speaker 1: another Trojan with him. It hits him between the eyes,
Speaker 1: shattering his skull and sending his eyeballs flying. Patrickluss continues
Speaker 1: charging at the Trojans, killing more men every time. He's
Speaker 1: full of adrenaline and the success he's had so far
Speaker 1: is bolstering him. Still, he feels as powerful as Achilles.
Speaker 1: The armor is giving him confidence. He knows the power
Speaker 1: of Achilles, his closest friend and his boyfriend, and he
Speaker 1: knows how powerful he too is. In the armor alone
Speaker 1: for hours, he and the Mermidons continue their success against
Speaker 1: the Trojans, killing countless men as they go. But as
Speaker 1: the sun begins to set and Patricluss charges at the
Speaker 1: Trojans once more, the narration of the Iliad switches. Now
Speaker 1: the narrator directs everything as if he's speaking to Patroclus himself.
Speaker 1: It has the effect of dramatizing the forthcoming events far
Speaker 1: more than before. It's powerful. We're speaking directly to Patriclus
Speaker 1: as everything begins to crumble around him. Apollo meets you
Speaker 1: on the battlefield, covering himself in a mist so that
Speaker 1: he's unseen by you. He appears and knocks off the
Speaker 1: glittering helmet of Achilles that you're wearing. It falls to
Speaker 1: the ground, now covered in blood and dirt. Zeus gives
Speaker 1: the helmet to Hector to wear, signaling even more trouble
Speaker 1: for you as the gods gang up against you. Now,
Speaker 1: your spear shatters in your hand, and your shield falls
Speaker 1: from your shoulders. Apollo comes up and unfastens your breastplate,
Speaker 1: letting it fall to the ground and exposing your bare flesh.
Speaker 1: From behind. You're stabbed by a trojan in the shoulder.
Speaker 1: You're wounded, but you survive. You're now without armor and
Speaker 1: stabbed in the shoulder, and you try to retreat. You
Speaker 1: try to flee, to get away, but you know the
Speaker 1: end is coming, and Hector sees you too. Hector charges
Speaker 1: at you, and he drives his spear into your stomach,
Speaker 1: pushing it all the way through into the other side.
Speaker 1: You fall to your knees, clutching your belly where the
Speaker 1: spear is driven through. Hector stands over you as you die,
Speaker 1: telling you it's too bad. Not even your precious Achilles
Speaker 1: can save you. Now he tells you that a Calles
Speaker 1: must have given you orders to not come back until
Speaker 1: you've wounded Hector. Of course, you know this isn't true.
Speaker 1: You know you went farther than Achilles ever wanted you to.
Speaker 1: Achilles wanted you to drive the Trojans away from the ships,
Speaker 1: nothing further. He didn't want you going at Hector. Achilles
Speaker 1: knew it wouldn't go well, but you didn't listen to
Speaker 1: Achilles though. You just wanted it all to end. You
Speaker 1: wanted an end to the violence. And as soon as
Speaker 1: you'd put on Achilles' armor and his helmet, you knew
Speaker 1: that you were powerful. You wanted to do what you could,
Speaker 1: and you took it too far. And now, with your
Speaker 1: dying breath, you tell Hector that he can boast all
Speaker 1: he wants, but you know the truth. You're only dying
Speaker 1: now because Zeus and Apollo wanted you to. It's them
Speaker 1: who made this happen, not Hector and not only that,
Speaker 1: you tell him, but death will come for you too, Hector,
Speaker 1: sooner than you think. So you die in the bloody
Speaker 1: sand the feet of Hector. It's Menilaus that first sees
Speaker 1: that Patroclus has fallen, and he rushes over to him
Speaker 1: to defend the body. He stands over patrick Less, holding
Speaker 1: his spear and threatening to kill whoever comes near. But
Speaker 1: more and more Trojans, led by Hector, come at Menilaus
Speaker 1: as he tries to defend the fallen Patrickless, and finally
Speaker 1: he's forced to move away from the body. Quickly, Hector
Speaker 1: strips patrick Less and takes the remaining armor, as well
Speaker 1: as that that had been removed by the gods. He
Speaker 1: begins to try to pull Patrickless away. He wants to
Speaker 1: cut off his head and feed it the dogs, which
Speaker 1: is where I begin to dislike Hector bit more than
Speaker 1: I had before. It's a bit of overkill, don't you think,
Speaker 1: Hector pun unfortunately intended. Ajax, though, sees what Hector is
Speaker 1: trying to do, and he comes up immediately to protect
Speaker 1: the body. Along with Menelaus. He places his shield over
Speaker 1: patrick Cless and stands above it, daring anyone to get closer. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Zeus watches as Hector replaces his own armor with that
Speaker 1: of Achilles, which he's just stripped off the poor dead
Speaker 1: body of beloved Patroclus. Zeus watches Hector and notes that
Speaker 1: before long, death will reach him too. Even though he
Speaker 1: may be wearing such a powerful man's armor, it was
Speaker 1: a mistake, Hector, taking that armor and wearing it yourself
Speaker 1: won the ill regret. Thank you all so much for listening.
Speaker 1: As always, I will be back on Friday with another
Speaker 1: of these revisiting episodes, but looking at conversations I've had
Speaker 1: about these myths that have origins in these very real
Speaker 1: Bronze Age people, So stay tuned for that, and I
Speaker 1: will be back soon with new episodes. We're gonna look
Speaker 1: at a Euripides play, you guys, because I want to
Speaker 1: return to my my real roots, my love of loves,
Speaker 1: just so that I can really get back into it.
Speaker 2: I am.
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to that. Who doesn't love a good
Speaker 1: visit with Euripities. Let's talk about mis Baby is written
Speaker 1: and produced by me Live Albert MICHAELA. Smith is the
Speaker 1: Hermes to my Olympians, the assistant producer who put together
Speaker 1: all of these clips for you because she is an
Speaker 1: absolute star. Laura Smith is the production assistant and audio
Speaker 1: engineer who works on so many of the conversation episodes
Speaker 1: and is creating something really great about the website. Check
Speaker 1: it out now. We have opened up some new pages
Speaker 1: listing episodes, going into a bit more detail, just kind
Speaker 1: of laying things out because I have over five hundred
Speaker 1: episodes and it turns out it's like really hard to
Speaker 1: figure out what to listen to when there's that many,
Speaker 1: so we're trying to help select music in. This episode
Speaker 1: was by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcast Network. Listen on Spotify or Apple or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, and I then live and I
Speaker 1: do love this shit