Speaker 1: Welcome to Guys We Fucked. Guys We Guys We Book.
Speaker 1: I'm Christina. I'm kn' sorry about last night anti slut
Speaker 1: shaming podcast. I never stopped. Hello, Fucker's Welcome to another
Speaker 1: episode of Guys We Fuck. It's the anti slut shaming podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Karrin. I'm Christina. Tonight tonight, if you are in
Speaker 1: the Montreal area of Canada, we are doing two shows
Speaker 1: at Just for Last Tonight VERSTS at five fifteen. It's
Speaker 1: a live podcast recording of Guys We Fucked. That's gonna
Speaker 1: be amazing. It's at the Hyatt Inspiration Room. Fine links
Speaker 1: in the description of this episode. You don't want to
Speaker 1: miss the live recordings. They are always insane and being
Speaker 1: there is uh an unforgettable experience, and the room is smaller,
Speaker 1: so if you like want to me and us hang out, yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll take a picture. Better opportunity there than at the
Speaker 1: show later, absolutely, because that show later at nine thirty
Speaker 1: is gonna be Guys We Sucked the Experience show. And
Speaker 1: then the next day tomorrow or else Saturday, we're hosting
Speaker 1: two off JFL shows. One I think is at seven
Speaker 1: fifteen and the other ones. UM go to our website
Speaker 1: or the link description this podcast for the links to
Speaker 1: UH more info. But come hang out with this Montreal UH.
Speaker 1: And then on Philadelphia Friday, August eleven at nine pm,
Speaker 1: UM headlining the Victoria Freehouse and I used that word
Speaker 1: loosely because it's pretty small. Get your tickets now. James
Speaker 1: will be featuring for me because that's the way feminism works.
Speaker 1: Use code Alfred for fifteen dollar tickets. And then the
Speaker 1: next night I'll be in Baltimore. That's Saturday, August twelve
Speaker 1: again at nine pm, location TVD because we had to
Speaker 1: move it because I was like, I don't like the
Speaker 1: looks of that place. UM, and again, use code Alfred
Speaker 1: for fifteen dollar tickets. Both shows me James lots of fun.
Speaker 1: If you're gona be in the Hamptons on Wednesday, August,
Speaker 1: Grit and I are going to do a show that
Speaker 1: Rauschmeier's and it's free but gate in Montalk. Yeah. Oh,
Speaker 1: I was in. Oh my god, that's so funny. I
Speaker 1: had a weekend with my girlfriends in the Hampton's this week.
Speaker 1: I've never really done that. And they said that they
Speaker 1: were at Rashman's but it was only open to Myers. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Rush Meyer's yeah. Yeah, it's a it's a free show.
Speaker 1: It's like they have a comedy series there on Wednesdays.
Speaker 1: But that just make sure to get there earlier if
Speaker 1: you're going to that show, because it is popular already.
Speaker 1: H and so it'll it'll cap out to brag. And
Speaker 1: then on Saturday, August is the two year anniversary of
Speaker 1: Glamor Plus. Uh, this is gonna be insane show at
Speaker 1: seven thirty pm. It's in Bar two third Street, hosted
Speaker 1: by myself and Wendy Starling. You're gonna want to get tickets.
Speaker 1: It's gonna sell out, and uh, just come with a
Speaker 1: full stomach, uh and an empty liver. Okay, alright, So Christina,
Speaker 1: oh boy, how I mean it's it's funny because this
Speaker 1: is like a fake how are you doing? It's going
Speaker 1: on in your life when we've got I've been going
Speaker 1: through a tough time in my relationship and uh, I
Speaker 1: guess stuff that have been it's been building up for
Speaker 1: a while, I guess, or just you kind of notice
Speaker 1: these little things and then one day you're like, wait,
Speaker 1: you've been doing this this whole time and it really
Speaker 1: makes me sad. Um. Yeah, I think in the first
Speaker 1: time in six years, like our relationship got my relationship
Speaker 1: with Stephen got like shooken up, and we like actually
Speaker 1: discussed the possibility, which I didn't even think. I never
Speaker 1: even thought of it. Always in a lot of times
Speaker 1: in a relationship will be like a man, I wonder
Speaker 1: if we'll ever break up. I didn't even wonder that
Speaker 1: with him. I didn't. I don't know, my brain never
Speaker 1: really went there. And I think this past week or
Speaker 1: maybe the past two weeks, um, we contemplated that. And
Speaker 1: it's this weird thing where, you know, for the first
Speaker 1: time in our relationship, I I looked. I always reflect
Speaker 1: on how much I love him, Like our relationship really
Speaker 1: is is wonderful, and I'm constantly feeling like so fortunate
Speaker 1: to have some buddy who I like this much, I'm
Speaker 1: attracted to, I have fun with, We talk endlessly all
Speaker 1: the time, we go on adventures. I respect him, I
Speaker 1: admire him, and vice versa. And uh. But there was
Speaker 1: this like this like little things that were creeping up,
Speaker 1: and I kind of came to a head, you know,
Speaker 1: with Like when I first met Stephen, I was just
Speaker 1: in the gutter in terms of like non in terms
Speaker 1: of career aspirations, but in terms of success, I just
Speaker 1: didn't have it yet or but I knew. I always
Speaker 1: kind of knew, like I've I feel like I've gotten
Speaker 1: where I him today because of my positive attitude. And
Speaker 1: I know that sounds very Tony, uh the fox his
Speaker 1: name Tony, the guy who does those workshops. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean he's a little he's a little more aggressive
Speaker 1: like this. Yeah, I know you're talking about I forgot
Speaker 1: his last name, but I watched the documentary. But yeah,
Speaker 1: but I but and then so there was just some
Speaker 1: issues and I don't know. I hope he's okay with
Speaker 1: me talking about this, but I didn't want to buy him.
Speaker 1: I know, I kind of assume he'll probably fine. Um.
Speaker 1: I I didn't want to talk about it last week
Speaker 1: because when we were rushed, and also I was in
Speaker 1: the middle of feeling it and I was just like
Speaker 1: had crying Tourette's and I like, right before we interviewed
Speaker 1: a lista in Perio, I was like, just I was
Speaker 1: gonna say, hey, guys, if I cry, just ignore me,
Speaker 1: Like I'm just gonna like put the microwaves and we
Speaker 1: can hear me and just kind of don't you know,
Speaker 1: look at me, and I couldn't even get the sentence
Speaker 1: out because I was crying. Well also then people would
Speaker 1: just be very like thinking about why you were almost
Speaker 1: crying the whole time, right right, Well, well I was
Speaker 1: going to do it so that I no one would
Speaker 1: hear me. And I'm like, I just wasn't gonna talk
Speaker 1: for however long it takes me to stop crying. And
Speaker 1: like I've slept on the couch a couple of days,
Speaker 1: not now, but it's we're in this weird period of
Speaker 1: do you work on it or do you do? You say?
Speaker 1: By and I kind of went around to everyone in
Speaker 1: my life that I that I care for and that
Speaker 1: knows me, and no, Stephen, you were one of those
Speaker 1: people who you see Stephen and I in environments that
Speaker 1: no one else does. You know, Same with when Starling
Speaker 1: because she has a podcast with Stephen, so she she
Speaker 1: has experienced what I've experienced with Stephen and some of
Speaker 1: the things I'm saying. She has a unique understanding of
Speaker 1: because she works with him and she kind of knows
Speaker 1: him well. And you've we've worked with him, you and
Speaker 1: I and you know, and you just kind of and
Speaker 1: then I go went to my mom, and I was
Speaker 1: just like, because sometimes I really can't tell what's best
Speaker 1: for me, and I can't tell all all my gut
Speaker 1: instinct is a little off, and I've been trying so
Speaker 1: hard the past honestly ten years to hone in on
Speaker 1: trusting my gut instinct. But a lot of times my
Speaker 1: gut instincts are wrong or I'll think I'll doing something
Speaker 1: where with this relationship, I'm like, is it bit more
Speaker 1: beneficial to me than not beneficial? Because it is my belief.
Speaker 1: I've been with the same person since I was twenty
Speaker 1: three years old. There's a lot of things like I
Speaker 1: feel like I missed out on hooking up with a
Speaker 1: shipload of people, even though I guess I did. But
Speaker 1: now I look back and I go, oh my god,
Speaker 1: twenty three is so young, right, And so that's that's
Speaker 1: just one little aspect of it. But you know, I,
Speaker 1: I honestly couldn't tell and if it was better for
Speaker 1: us to continue, were better for us not to continue, um,
Speaker 1: And there's varying factors in it, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: So I'm in this period where thankfully I can be
Speaker 1: so open with Steven and I could say, you know,
Speaker 1: when you're negative. I'm not attracted to you when you're
Speaker 1: being negative like that, and uh, and it's frustrating and
Speaker 1: I feel like I've been saying the same thing for
Speaker 1: six years in terms of just you gotta change your
Speaker 1: attitude and work hard. And that's certainly part of relationship.
Speaker 1: I will say it is. I mean, because there you know,
Speaker 1: I think as women we go in especially women everyone's
Speaker 1: guilty of it, but especially women, Like I mean, there
Speaker 1: are things no one's going to be perfect, of course,
Speaker 1: so there are things that are gonna always be there
Speaker 1: about somebody that you're never going to be able to change,
Speaker 1: and you have to and at a certain point you
Speaker 1: have to say, can I just accept this person as
Speaker 1: they are and maybe change the way I see, I
Speaker 1: see how they live? Like I talked to Tommy kind of.
Speaker 1: I talked to Tommy about relationships a lot, not about
Speaker 1: your specific situation. But it's like he's like, he's like you.
Speaker 1: He's like, if things bother in a relationship, you need
Speaker 1: to say instead of just like being bothered by and
Speaker 1: keep trying to change the behavior, site is, how can
Speaker 1: I react differently to this behavior that my partner will
Speaker 1: always have? And and one thing that I am bad
Speaker 1: at deciphering for myself is is this something that like negativity?
Speaker 1: Is that something that depletes my happiness a little bit
Speaker 1: or kind of takes me down off of the Oh
Speaker 1: my god, this is so exciting, right, yeah, But because
Speaker 1: it's I'm weighing the pros and cons basically in my head,
Speaker 1: or I have been lately, and and to him with him,
Speaker 1: I I you know, I've included him in this process
Speaker 1: because I think that that's what I want to do,
Speaker 1: and he's cool with that. But you know, is that
Speaker 1: negativity going to take the wind out of my sales forever?
Speaker 1: Is that I can't tell if it's a behavior that
Speaker 1: I don't deserve to have this behavior in my life,
Speaker 1: or it's like you can change the approach to how
Speaker 1: you think of it and realize that the roots of
Speaker 1: it have nothing to do with you, and it's okay.
Speaker 1: I cannot tell what the right thing to do of
Speaker 1: negative though, though, so okay. So it's like if so
Speaker 1: there's like being a negative person, and you know it's
Speaker 1: not it's not necessarily fun to be like a negative person,
Speaker 1: Like I am like a negative person, but it's just
Speaker 1: like I it's just like the way I am. It's like,
Speaker 1: view as negative you Beata's honesty. Yeah, well that's what
Speaker 1: that's what he's It's realistic. So it's like but so
Speaker 1: there's a but you have to be careful as a
Speaker 1: negative person, and I say, I don't think of being
Speaker 1: a negative person as a negative thing, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: So you have to be careful that you do not
Speaker 1: turn that negativity in towards like kind of like knocking
Speaker 1: other people down in your life so that you feel
Speaker 1: as bad as I do. It's kind of like, just
Speaker 1: let that person float in whatever they're A kind of
Speaker 1: comfortable spot is for you. The comfortable spot is happiness.
Speaker 1: For me, the comfortable spot honestly is negative. It doesn't
Speaker 1: bother me, it doesn't make me. It just this is
Speaker 1: just how I see the world, and I'm okay with that.
Speaker 1: I honestly feel though that I am allergic to bad feelings.
Speaker 1: It's weird, like I don't like when when when someone
Speaker 1: in my life is being negative, my instinct immediately and
Speaker 1: I will try so hard, and that's probably a problem
Speaker 1: with it myself, is to change it so that they
Speaker 1: can be happy, or phrase it in a way or
Speaker 1: try and get them to see it in a way
Speaker 1: that's like this is actually good thing. Well, you definitely
Speaker 1: have it. I mean that's obviously from your relationship with
Speaker 1: your mother. Yeah, but I can't. I honestly, we're gonna
Speaker 1: see a couple of therapists, which I'm so excited about.
Speaker 1: Did you pick one out? Yeah? Yeah, we did, we did.
Speaker 1: We haven't excited to hear. I've heard really good, really
Speaker 1: good things about it. Yeah, And and it's at the
Speaker 1: point where like, I can't decide what the best thing
Speaker 1: is for me. But I also am a firm believer
Speaker 1: of I think partnership is a luxury, not a necessity.
Speaker 1: I think having a romantic companion or a life companion
Speaker 1: in can be a cherry on top to a wonderful life.
Speaker 1: And it doesn't mean there's a lack of anything if
Speaker 1: you don't have that. I think champanionship can be beautiful.
Speaker 1: There's certainly challenges with both ways of being. Even if
Speaker 1: you're a polly person you have a shipload of companions, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's challenges to that. So I I don't know, it's
Speaker 1: just been this really interesting. It feels weird because I
Speaker 1: slept on the couch twice, and it just feels bad.
Speaker 1: It feels like I remember feeling honestly up until this
Speaker 1: kind of thing happened with like that riff between us
Speaker 1: and we kind of were like ship, should we stay together?
Speaker 1: You know? I I question that, and uh, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I've been thinking, you know, obviously what Okay, how would
Speaker 1: I feel if we broke up and I just want
Speaker 1: to die? Well, I mean, you're gonna feel like that
Speaker 1: no matter why, even if it's the right choice for you.
Speaker 1: So just don't, I know, don't. It's almost like it's
Speaker 1: hard to say, don't be scared of the feeling of
Speaker 1: wanting to die. But as someone who has been through
Speaker 1: that exact same feeling, and I will say, even though
Speaker 1: I'm super like a negative person, it's the only time
Speaker 1: in my life that I truly wanted to die. I've
Speaker 1: never been and not suicidal, just like I just didn't
Speaker 1: want to be on the planet anymore. So. But and
Speaker 1: this is not here there there. Once you get past that,
Speaker 1: you are truly capable of anything totally. Oh and and
Speaker 1: beautiful things come out of a feeling absolutely you And
Speaker 1: it's but it's I mean, if anyone tells you it's
Speaker 1: not going to be the most miserable, longest, uh most
Speaker 1: a long time in your life. That's there. I've had
Speaker 1: that feeling before, not in the scale, but like there
Speaker 1: are just I mean, there're a moment up until this
Speaker 1: like rift happened with us or kind of stuff came
Speaker 1: to surface. I mean, I up three weeks ago, up
Speaker 1: until for the past six years, I just I will
Speaker 1: think about I'll be on this couch at night doing
Speaker 1: work and I'll be sleeping, and I'm just think to myself,
Speaker 1: like I'm so excited to lay next to him or
Speaker 1: hold his hand, like I really love him. I didn't
Speaker 1: know you could love someone that much. I really didn't.
Speaker 1: And and and I get and he brings out the
Speaker 1: best in me, and he pushes me and sometimes and
Speaker 1: that then that's where the problem is comes because sometimes
Speaker 1: he pushes me too far or or kind of takes
Speaker 1: the win out of my sales and it and but
Speaker 1: it's just like that period of time in which you
Speaker 1: decipher like what are we in it? Are we not?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean kind of thing, And I
Speaker 1: just I don't know. And that's why I'm excited for this,
Speaker 1: for to see a couple of therapist, because I don't
Speaker 1: know what. I've asked my friends this the other day
Speaker 1: when we were had a weekend together, I'm like, what
Speaker 1: do you ask yourself? What's the checklist when you go?
Speaker 1: Should I stay or should I go? What? What are
Speaker 1: the what do you ask yourself? I mean, I guess
Speaker 1: everyone has different Well, what's the right thing? I wish?
Speaker 1: And when we interviewed Nicki Glazer and this one thing
Speaker 1: that she said, I was like, oh my god, you
Speaker 1: articulated this how I feel about something. Actually it's simple,
Speaker 1: but I've never articulated heard it articulate like this. I
Speaker 1: wish someone could just make the decision for me. I
Speaker 1: wish somebody who knows better and could see into the
Speaker 1: future can go, this is what you should do, and
Speaker 1: that would be so much easier. But you do know,
Speaker 1: you know yourself better. I know you feel like you don't,
Speaker 1: but you you're I think you're not giving yourself credit
Speaker 1: for me. This is this is what I use for me.
Speaker 1: I this is so corny, but this is exactly what
Speaker 1: I do. I picture myself in the audience at the
Speaker 1: Academy Awards and I looked to my left and I say,
Speaker 1: who is sitting next to me, and if the person
Speaker 1: that I am with at that point is that person,
Speaker 1: then there's your answer. It is, that's your answer, all right,
Speaker 1: problem solved, Problem solved. But but it's like so then
Speaker 1: it says, that's that's a good way to think. What
Speaker 1: do I what do I work? When when I'm up
Speaker 1: there and I look out into the audience, who do
Speaker 1: I think? Yeah? Who do I want to think? Who's
Speaker 1: been there for me? Him? I mean him, The support
Speaker 1: is insane. I mean, how excited he is, and how
Speaker 1: about what we're doing and and and oh my god,
Speaker 1: he'll just be when he goes with us on tour gigs.
Speaker 1: So I don't have to entertain him if I'm freaking
Speaker 1: out or have an anxiety attack. He just sits in
Speaker 1: the on the bed and he said, if you need me,
Speaker 1: let me know. If not, I'm gonna be on my phone.
Speaker 1: It's the most supportive. He doesn't make me feel bad
Speaker 1: about that about the way I can be like my
Speaker 1: anxiety and stuff, or when I when I feel rushed
Speaker 1: or I'm being nasty to people like he's he's an angel.
Speaker 1: So can I mean, I don't know if you want to?
Speaker 1: I mean, I can we can? I ask you, like,
Speaker 1: what is so? What is the negativity? Um? And his Uh,
Speaker 1: he's so fucking talented. He's a director. He makes music videos.
Speaker 1: I guess never really familiar, dope know what he does,
Speaker 1: but he is. It's so sexy how talented he is.
Speaker 1: He he makes music videos, he makes documentary shorts. He
Speaker 1: makes all of these pieces, film pieces. He shoots them,
Speaker 1: he directs them, he outlines them, he edits them, he
Speaker 1: does every the sound design, the color. He's a one
Speaker 1: stop shop. And he's so he's a brilliant storyteller on film.
Speaker 1: It is. I I am so in awe of what
Speaker 1: he does, of his art, and that's important to me
Speaker 1: to be with somebody who I respect their art or
Speaker 1: what you do. And um, and he's so talented and
Speaker 1: but he gets in his own way of of of
Speaker 1: um in terms of you know, career progress. And it's
Speaker 1: been that way since I met him. And he's always
Speaker 1: been frustrated with his career. And I see it as
Speaker 1: I'm someone who's like, all right, I want to be
Speaker 1: a comedy. You know, at the very beginning, my goal
Speaker 1: is Saturday Night Live. So I was like, okay, I
Speaker 1: gotta transfer colleges. I gotta transfer to Mary Manhattan, I
Speaker 1: gotta get an internship with Saturday Night Live. That and
Speaker 1: you plot out little steps to get you. It might
Speaker 1: not get you to Saturday and Live, but I'll get
Speaker 1: you on a billboard on the side of a bus
Speaker 1: stop in New York City that's fucking amazing, or on
Speaker 1: the ted you know what I mean, Like good things
Speaker 1: will come out of it. You just have to. It
Speaker 1: seems overwhelming. A goal, a career goal, can seem so
Speaker 1: overwhelming and scary, but if you just break it down
Speaker 1: into the little step. But he doesn't think of it
Speaker 1: that way, and so it drives me a little enough
Speaker 1: because I see how talented he is and I want
Speaker 1: him to be making documentary, to be making movies like
Speaker 1: he could. I mean, his work is so fucking good.
Speaker 1: And so we talked about that a lot, and it's
Speaker 1: always the same conversation. And when you hear the same
Speaker 1: conversation for six years, you start to feel like in
Speaker 1: the same person. Yeah, you know, And that thing is
Speaker 1: you're not You're not his manager, And I get and
Speaker 1: I get it because as some I have a really
Speaker 1: big problem with wanting to manage all my friends because
Speaker 1: I also because find up not their comedy, but like
Speaker 1: like with Frank with the I remember, I don't know
Speaker 1: if he grew beer, took the beard off or something.
Speaker 1: You did something and because and I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, he looks great. I mean, my advice is
Speaker 1: amazing and everyone should always follow it. But I mean, no, truly,
Speaker 1: I truly, I mean I can't even get into some
Speaker 1: other things because it will reveal details of like who
Speaker 1: Frank is. But uh, yeah you have, but you have
Speaker 1: these little things that he that worked. Sure, and it's
Speaker 1: not coming from nowhere. I have a background in management,
Speaker 1: but I mean, but the thing is, you have to
Speaker 1: and I find I find the same frustration in knowing
Speaker 1: someone so talented who is executing their career in what
Speaker 1: I think is the wrong way. I totally here, even
Speaker 1: though we're examples of I mean my theory, we have
Speaker 1: different theories on how to ext your career in terms
Speaker 1: of like I'm just like thing positive, but it fucking worked.
Speaker 1: Are both of our things worked? Well? There's so I mean,
Speaker 1: I think there's okay, just luck I'm in the middle
Speaker 1: of you guys as far as my approach to things,
Speaker 1: and I mean all it also has to do with
Speaker 1: like it's not you know, that's why we work together.
Speaker 1: We are both successful on our own, but the powerhouses
Speaker 1: together because the two elements, I mean, what you bring
Speaker 1: is like almost the blindness in that I have. You
Speaker 1: put blinders on and you say, this is what's happening.
Speaker 1: We're gonna, you know, talk to Lauren Michael's. We're gonna
Speaker 1: get this show. We're gonna, you know, create this thing
Speaker 1: whatever it is. You just say we're gonna do it,
Speaker 1: and I go great, but okay, what how are we act?
Speaker 1: Like what are the logistics of this? And so those
Speaker 1: are the two things that you need. You do need
Speaker 1: this blind faith in yourself, which we both have. Yes,
Speaker 1: there's never a moment, no matter how hard things got,
Speaker 1: that I was like I'm not gonna make it or
Speaker 1: I should quit. That's never never even never even caught
Speaker 1: us inline since I was camp ever ever ever plan
Speaker 1: And I know the same thing with you, since you
Speaker 1: were a little kid, and since I was a little kid.
Speaker 1: What people say what you to be when you grow up?
Speaker 1: And I say famous, Yeah that's it. That's the answer. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I showed you that paper I wrote seventh grade about
Speaker 1: me in two thousands, I said the years two thou seventeen,
Speaker 1: I walk outside of a building as a creative writing project,
Speaker 1: and people are asking for my autograph. I wrote that
Speaker 1: in two thousand one, right, and I mean they're along
Speaker 1: the way. Certainly people have you know, I've had I
Speaker 1: had a psychology teacher say, but you know, but what
Speaker 1: is fame? And I go, I don't know, but I'm
Speaker 1: gonna get it or like or that or you know,
Speaker 1: people saying that doesn't have meaning. I'm like, well has
Speaker 1: meaning to me? I think you getting married has no meaning? Right? Well,
Speaker 1: I was. I brought up our relationship, your Anize relationship
Speaker 1: with Stephen. Actually we're talking about this last night because
Speaker 1: Stephen edits the podcast and Stephen chooses the music for
Speaker 1: the podcast every week. We have podcast music at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com. By the way, he asked me that I
Speaker 1: forgot to do that. We need more submissions. Um anyway,
Speaker 1: streaming links. But you guys need to listen to each
Speaker 1: other better. There's a relationship problem. But one of the
Speaker 1: one of the I think setting boundaries is so healthy
Speaker 1: and one of the boundaries that you would set that
Speaker 1: I now set with me and Wendy and me and
Speaker 1: Joseph Bessie are working on a project. And I set
Speaker 1: that boundary with him because I took that. I was
Speaker 1: like that, whenever it's a business related thing that we
Speaker 1: need to talk to each other about, always email, always, always, always,
Speaker 1: and if it's personal text, but if it's a business
Speaker 1: thing we talk about over text, that means it's either, hey,
Speaker 1: we need to pick the title of this podcast, I
Speaker 1: need to get ahold of you now kind of thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like super urgent. And I was I was telling Stephen
Speaker 1: like I could not imagine if I was like in
Speaker 1: the Hampton's with my friends and this weekend, and if
Speaker 1: you were had an turned about something project and you
Speaker 1: were just texting me and texting me and texting me,
Speaker 1: I'd be like, then that means our business relationship is
Speaker 1: leaking into times in my life where I don't want
Speaker 1: to be bothered. I want to be able to read
Speaker 1: my email, choose the times I read my email. That's
Speaker 1: such a valuable boundary to set. And Wendy and I
Speaker 1: have it, Joseph and I have it, and we it's
Speaker 1: this weird it's this weird thing where we pay Steven
Speaker 1: every episode to work on the podcast. And to talk about.
Speaker 1: He'll talk to me about it because the three of
Speaker 1: us are like when we're on tour and he's around,
Speaker 1: he doesn't want to bother us because we're doing stuff.
Speaker 1: But one of the things I kind of dawned on
Speaker 1: me last night, I said, you know what would really
Speaker 1: help I just said it out of nowhere if any
Speaker 1: time you talked about how much we're paying you, or
Speaker 1: what we could be, other things we could be doing,
Speaker 1: or whatever, if you only addressed those things when you,
Speaker 1: me and Karin were in the same room or on
Speaker 1: email with me and Karin, I actually don't think that
Speaker 1: would be a problem in our relationship at all, because
Speaker 1: I don't want I think of the anxiety of I
Speaker 1: want Stephen as my boyfriend to get anything he wants.
Speaker 1: I want him to be paid billions of dollars if
Speaker 1: I if it was up to me. But then, but
Speaker 1: number one, when it comes to me and you, you're
Speaker 1: number one. You have to be and I want you
Speaker 1: to be. And that's the way I think it needs
Speaker 1: to be, because this is this is our podcast, exactly
Speaker 1: and right, and then but then I'm going, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I don't want I want him to get what he wants.
Speaker 1: But then on top of that, I go, I don't
Speaker 1: want to put you in an uncomfortable position of can
Speaker 1: my boyfriend do the thing? For it makes me feel
Speaker 1: I want to explode. It creates this tension in me,
Speaker 1: and I just I'm like, you know what, if we
Speaker 1: implemented that boundary, I don't think I would have a
Speaker 1: problem because I that whole time where I'm worried about Stephen,
Speaker 1: and I'm worried about if you're gonna if I'm putting
Speaker 1: you in a position that's uncomfortable, I don't want to
Speaker 1: do that. And then I don't even think about what
Speaker 1: I think of it. I don't even consider my own feelings.
Speaker 1: I'm just worried about I don't want to make you uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: I don't want Stephen to get piste, and I don't
Speaker 1: want to have a fight. And you know, because you're
Speaker 1: the middle, the link between us and I mean and
Speaker 1: and I mean and this is you know, I've expressed
Speaker 1: this before. When we first started, I was really hesitant
Speaker 1: having Steven work with it exactly because I four, I
Speaker 1: saw these problems coming up because I know, I mean,
Speaker 1: I mean, this comes back to like, you know, I
Speaker 1: had in middle school. I had a husband and wife
Speaker 1: directing team directed all the school plays and it was
Speaker 1: a fucking nightmare. And I go, oh god, I never,
Speaker 1: I just never want to have this kind of a
Speaker 1: business relationship with my partner um and and it's hard.
Speaker 1: It's hard. I mean James and I, you know, we
Speaker 1: tour together, but it's like you have to really like
Speaker 1: just be be be separate and together at the same time.
Speaker 1: I mean Kate Winslett and her recommends they broke up
Speaker 1: because she would go home and she wouldn't stop talking
Speaker 1: about the film. And it's very real, and it's very, very,
Speaker 1: very very hard to separate this because you love someone
Speaker 1: and when they're in you know they're also an artist.
Speaker 1: You love them and you want and you think they're
Speaker 1: amazing and brilliant, and you want all the jobs to
Speaker 1: go of them, and you want to collaborate with them.
Speaker 1: But at a certain point, I mean, I can't. If
Speaker 1: I had a dollar for every time I told James
Speaker 1: we can't talk about comedy right now, I'd be a
Speaker 1: fucking millionaire. Because sometimes you just have to start. I
Speaker 1: literally will go I will just well, I'll pick a topic.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll be like old board games, and we're just
Speaker 1: we have to talk about that, just so we don't
Speaker 1: talk about comedy, because you don't want to end up
Speaker 1: hating the thing that you love more than anything, yes,
Speaker 1: or the best true love, Oh my god, yes, But
Speaker 1: I I do like, I like. I mean, he's great
Speaker 1: at picking the music for the podcast every week. We
Speaker 1: don't have time to do it. I don't know how.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a whole different black hole that I
Speaker 1: have to get my dig into, right. I love that
Speaker 1: he does that, and I I personally don't want him
Speaker 1: to not do that, but I'm just like, but that's
Speaker 1: the camp, you know. And it was just negotiating that
Speaker 1: and figuring it out, and it's just been so stressful.
Speaker 1: And there's like these moments where we haven't had sex,
Speaker 1: I guess, and he said two weeks. I thought it
Speaker 1: was one, but I think it's been too and the
Speaker 1: line for two weeks, so I would all, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it seems like one week to mean, but it's been too.
Speaker 1: Um And like, we kiss the other day and that
Speaker 1: felt oddly, I don't know, it felt it felt good.
Speaker 1: It felt good, it felt like our first kiss, but
Speaker 1: it was also kind of sad because there was the
Speaker 1: rift and we never felt that. And I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I'm just kind of trying to navigate through
Speaker 1: it and uh figure it out. But there's all these
Speaker 1: little layers of things that I just can't Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I'm just in a weird space with that.
Speaker 1: But I were, we're doing great right now. We're going
Speaker 1: to go into the therapist thing, which I'm so excited about,
Speaker 1: and uh talk about things that like I almost feel
Speaker 1: like it's a crossroads of either on board or you're
Speaker 1: all you're completely on board or you're completely off board,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean kind of thing. We just
Speaker 1: have to figure out what the best I think on
Speaker 1: board is certainly the direction it's heading. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, but and I mean I mean and I
Speaker 1: and even if you know, even if you do need
Speaker 1: to break up, I feel a friend of mine who
Speaker 1: goes to a couple of therapy was like, sometimes a
Speaker 1: couple of therapists just helps you break up, but in
Speaker 1: the right way. Certainly, don't go in with that. I
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't want I mean, I don't want
Speaker 1: that to happen, But you know, I don't know. But
Speaker 1: either way, I'm excited. I have a positive outlook on
Speaker 1: this of that either way, Yeah, he does, very he
Speaker 1: doesn't want to change that very negativity. He does want
Speaker 1: to change. It's a really great start. And you're so
Speaker 1: self aware and which is amazing, and that's why I
Speaker 1: could talk to him about all this stuff. And it's
Speaker 1: just like to have a partner that you can literally say, oh,
Speaker 1: I have a crush on this person, and that you
Speaker 1: can talk about it and geek out on it and
Speaker 1: kind of that's to me. That is such a beautiful
Speaker 1: bond between two people and you're still sexually attracted to
Speaker 1: them and you want to hold their hand and you
Speaker 1: want to I mean, I I feel like so long
Speaker 1: this whole relationship, I feel like I've hit the lottery
Speaker 1: and night. But I think there's all the there's these
Speaker 1: little pockets of our relationship that I really have a
Speaker 1: problem with and I'm excited for the chance to work
Speaker 1: on it. And I gotta tell you, you're not really
Speaker 1: missing a lot on the outside. Yeah, I know it,
Speaker 1: Like I know, it feels like you are like you know, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm twenty three. I want to funk
Speaker 1: a lot of other people I had the same, Well,
Speaker 1: that feeling of chasing dick and feeling alive from that
Speaker 1: and the electricity that comes with pursuing somebody sexually here
Speaker 1: is exciting, and you cannot get that with a person
Speaker 1: you've been with for a long time because it's it's
Speaker 1: not how those feelings work. It's not saying a lack
Speaker 1: on anything on your relationships part. It's just science. But
Speaker 1: you have to choose my other It's like, do you
Speaker 1: want to leave like this kind of like bachelorette lifestyle
Speaker 1: for a long time, because no matter what relationship, that
Speaker 1: will always go away. And I feel like there is
Speaker 1: you know. It's like you, guys, you're very lucky that
Speaker 1: you're both so sexually explorative because I mean, even as
Speaker 1: far as you've gone, and the fact that he's willing
Speaker 1: to like have a threason with a dude, I mean, like,
Speaker 1: I know, no one would do that just because of fairness.
Speaker 1: He's like, to be honest, no one would do that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean but he would exactly. He's not attracted me
Speaker 1: at all. He's like, you know what, we've on it
Speaker 1: with a girl. Yeah, if you want to do that, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I'm on board. I'm like oh god, damn it, Stephen,
Speaker 1: you are great, right, um, But you know, it's just
Speaker 1: a weird time because the things I wrote about him
Speaker 1: in the book and we're on these like final final
Speaker 1: you can change one period and that's it of the
Speaker 1: book process. And I'm like, two weeks ago, I was like,
Speaker 1: I just wrote the dedication and I'm like, do I
Speaker 1: have to change that? And but I don't has that.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't mean the words that you run in
Speaker 1: the book, that doesn't she know nothing about this changes
Speaker 1: the relationship that you have had all this time exactly.
Speaker 1: And I meant everything I said, Yeah, I just dug
Speaker 1: real deep into it, but in the book, but uh
Speaker 1: yeah I mean it. I meant it, and I do
Speaker 1: still mean it. I still mean it. And the lessons
Speaker 1: you've learned and and you know, the woman you've become
Speaker 1: to sound corny, but like none of that, you're none
Speaker 1: of that changes. Yeah, it's just it's it's I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I told you this, but I constantly think about your
Speaker 1: joke about you can't listen to music after breaking up
Speaker 1: because every fucking song is is some commentary if wasn't
Speaker 1: hard enough. Yeah, I didn't want to save you, but Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just been a weird time, but but a good
Speaker 1: time because it's it's it's forcing you to kind of
Speaker 1: look at what you have and and figure out what
Speaker 1: the areas you can improve upon. And I'm all for
Speaker 1: improving anything in my life all the time, right, And
Speaker 1: I think I mean over certainly, over the course of
Speaker 1: this podcast, I think your relationship has been presented as
Speaker 1: something that was, you know, pretty much a fairy tale.
Speaker 1: So I think I think it's you know, I didn't
Speaker 1: realize that Stephen said that she's like, you build me
Speaker 1: up on the podcast to be this like angel, and
Speaker 1: that's really not who I just only talk positive about
Speaker 1: me and and your word that people are getting vol
Speaker 1: I am so protected. No, and that's also you know,
Speaker 1: difficult for people who might be like working with you,
Speaker 1: like I can I know that I can't say anything
Speaker 1: and I gative about yeah, but you can't mean you're different,
Speaker 1: you can because I know that you don't mean it
Speaker 1: will Well, I mean, it's fine. We've been through a lot,
Speaker 1: We've are you know, Steven, and my relationship is certainly better.
Speaker 1: We've worked on our relationship. Well, there are times where
Speaker 1: I was like you should he was like, can I
Speaker 1: just hang out with Karan and talked her because you
Speaker 1: guys are very similar in certain things. But then you
Speaker 1: love yourself. He doesn't love himself. I can help him
Speaker 1: with that. I mean we, I mean, yeah, well, I
Speaker 1: often find myself talking to Stephen at like parties and
Speaker 1: stuff when I'm like, oh god, I don't want to
Speaker 1: do anything that anyone else is doing. Talk about something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not drinking. You're not drinking, right, yeah yeah, society culture?
Speaker 1: Um yeah, okay, so that's that. Well, and be updated.
Speaker 1: But you're feeling positive right now. This is more positive
Speaker 1: than you were last week. For sure. Last week it
Speaker 1: was doomsday all day. Just yeah, that's just who cares
Speaker 1: about anything? What's the point anymore? And it's always alarming
Speaker 1: to see you in that in that I'm never feeling
Speaker 1: like that. That's why I feel like I'm allergic to
Speaker 1: sadness because I was just like when I was at
Speaker 1: Nachra bitches, I was just like looking at the floor
Speaker 1: you were, and I just but allergic to sadness in that?
Speaker 1: Do you find can I feel a sad thing? I'm
Speaker 1: like out, how can I get you out of my brain?
Speaker 1: Why do you think that is because I don't like
Speaker 1: being sad like being happy. But can you run what's
Speaker 1: the last time in your life then you were that
Speaker 1: you were truly that you were truly sad like? Was it?
Speaker 1: What was it connected to? Almost? W my mom got
Speaker 1: didos with dementia. I couldn't do anything about it, right,
Speaker 1: That's why that was the status feeling I've ever felt.
Speaker 1: Is it's because it's a control issue. There's nothing I
Speaker 1: can do about it. Yeah, okay, yeah, because you are
Speaker 1: a control for you. Oh yeah, oh my god, um okay,
Speaker 1: because I feel because that's I think that's the difference
Speaker 1: between us. I feel very comfortable and sadness. It's a
Speaker 1: comfortable place for me. I think the world is a
Speaker 1: sad place and it's fine. Should I learn to be
Speaker 1: comfortable in sadness or I mean, I think you need
Speaker 1: to be more comfortable in sadness because if you don't
Speaker 1: allow yourself the comfort of being sad, you'll never You
Speaker 1: need to like go through the process so that you
Speaker 1: feel the release. Yeah. I think feeling sad is beautiful feeling.
Speaker 1: It can be really beautiful feeling. Well, that's also that's
Speaker 1: all that that's the poeticizing things. It's I mean, being
Speaker 1: sad isn't really great. I listen to Count of Curls
Speaker 1: color Blind for like twelve times. I just think of
Speaker 1: like cruel intentions when they get hit by the car.
Speaker 1: That's bitter sweet Symphony too. That sound Yeah, but that
Speaker 1: soundtrack is amazing. That is all around me. Or and
Speaker 1: I would love the best. That was one of the
Speaker 1: songs that I listened to, And I would walk around
Speaker 1: the city and just be like everything shit. But that's
Speaker 1: that's but so that is a step towards being comfortable
Speaker 1: in sadness, to be able to kind of just sit
Speaker 1: there and just be like roll around in the sadness.
Speaker 1: Like the sadness is like your Scrooge McDuck, and the
Speaker 1: sadness is his fucking pool full of money. You just
Speaker 1: need to roll around in it. But then the ability
Speaker 1: to come out of it when it's time. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: say I've felt sorry for myself long enough, Well, I
Speaker 1: can only feel sadness for I have like a cap
Speaker 1: on it. My body has a cap on sadness. Feeling
Speaker 1: like I cannot be as sad as I wasn't not
Speaker 1: to pitches, I cannot be that sad for more than
Speaker 1: two days. I when my mom got diagnosed, that lasted
Speaker 1: longer that but uh, I can't my even my brain
Speaker 1: will just go, okay, how can we rethink this? So
Speaker 1: you're up that set, right, I just cannot feel it.
Speaker 1: It's like I'm allergic. My body rejects it. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I spent a year in that deep level
Speaker 1: of sadness and I almost die. Yeah yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I was not good. So it's not your you know,
Speaker 1: it's the body forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, your body is
Speaker 1: sending out. Depression is one of the most cruel diseases
Speaker 1: a person can have. It's it's cruel. But yeah, that's
Speaker 1: where I'm at. All right, Thanks for listening, everybody, Um okay,
Speaker 1: and so that's that's it for the intro. We're just
Speaker 1: gonna bring on our guest. Uh we we've had him
Speaker 1: on before. We basically never repeat guests. But for anyone
Speaker 1: who listens, you know, we fucking quote this guy all
Speaker 1: the time. He's like my personal uh Jesus, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean he really is. I truly like live my life
Speaker 1: a lot by some things that he's written and probably
Speaker 1: creep him out a lot. With the amount of Google
Speaker 1: alerts he gets over me mentioning him, and for that
Speaker 1: I don't apologize. Um guy. He's a journalist, he's an author,
Speaker 1: He's a documentary filmmaker, screenwriter, radio presenter. He has a
Speaker 1: new Audible series called The Butterfly Effect out, as well
Speaker 1: as a film on Netflix called oak Jah. Please give
Speaker 1: it up for John Ronson? Do you remember single thing?
Speaker 1: After I slipped through the karak in the I felt
Speaker 1: to my death, even all my regrets, his picturesque scars
Speaker 1: in the Duke, when my body was left to to
Speaker 1: to the girl. You seem not to know me at
Speaker 1: least you don't show me any signs of relief. You
Speaker 1: stay threw me blankly. I beg that you see me.
Speaker 1: I seemed to be out of this world. I revel
Speaker 1: in you, my girl, Oh dear, I'm still restless despite
Speaker 1: makinsent man, I feel more alive than Manysdea of the
Speaker 1: life that I lived when us slept past the world
Speaker 1: that A bandoned my soul and abandoned morales A. Man.
Speaker 1: We are so excited to be here with John Ronson. Hey,
Speaker 1: how you doing. It's very nice to be back. Yes,
Speaker 1: we're are. Yeah, we were at a studio the first time.
Speaker 1: Now we're in my home, yeah, and I feel like
Speaker 1: it's more intimate now. Yeah. On a number of occasions
Speaker 1: since I was here last time, people have kind of
Speaker 1: sidled up to me and said I heard you, and I,
Speaker 1: oh really yes. Can I tell you the two most
Speaker 1: memorable occasions? Yes, and you love said and I think
Speaker 1: you are love starting out in reason's why it's my favorite? Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: the first one was when I when I was checking
Speaker 1: into the gym and the woman like, I just you know,
Speaker 1: I kind of beat my app and the woman that
Speaker 1: looked at my name and said, I I recognize you
Speaker 1: from a podcast and I said which podcast? And she
Speaker 1: said it wouldn't be appropriate for me to say the
Speaker 1: name of the podcast right now in the workplace and
Speaker 1: found and so obviously it wasn't like the New York
Speaker 1: aread that could be offensive to some you never know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I assumed that, Wow, I can't think any of
Speaker 1: the girl like young and good looking. Yes, yeah, that's us.
Speaker 1: That definitely, guys. It is blows my mind how beautiful
Speaker 1: our audience member, our listeners. And then we got to
Speaker 1: live show. I'm like, you guys are all beautiful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and Then the second occasion was I was at a
Speaker 1: fancy dinner party and the daughter of the hostess at
Speaker 1: the end of the night came over and said, I
Speaker 1: think should showed you on. Oh my god, that makes
Speaker 1: me so excited. These are just instances in John Ronson's
Speaker 1: life where he was hanging out with young chicks. Girl nearby.
Speaker 1: Chances are well they yeah, they put us up on
Speaker 1: the bus stops and stuff. Now I saw that Spotify
Speaker 1: and I was like, good for you, Spotify, Like giving
Speaker 1: a crap what the people think, you know, just because
Speaker 1: there's children, you know what I want to see. I
Speaker 1: want to go take a picture to start it to
Speaker 1: my mom, and there was just this little girl looking
Speaker 1: at it, and I'm like, oh, move along, honey. But
Speaker 1: you know, on both occasions, I've really got the sense
Speaker 1: that like people like they're like the two women. And
Speaker 1: there's been like the occasions too, But on both occasions,
Speaker 1: I've got the strong sense that people don't just listen
Speaker 1: to for like just you know, for diversion or entertainment.
Speaker 1: They listened to because it kind of really sort of
Speaker 1: helps them in some way or matters to them in
Speaker 1: some way. Yeah, Yeah, there's this weirdness is concussion and yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's where a pr person and then there you go. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I think with the Shamed, the book that you wrote
Speaker 1: that we talked about last time we had you on,
Speaker 1: when you help people feel better, you kind of give
Speaker 1: them permission in a way to go, it's okay that
Speaker 1: you're ashamed of this, and it doesn't need to be
Speaker 1: a big deal. They there's this barn that forms, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's nice. Yeah, there's Yeah. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who have like vested interests
Speaker 1: to make other people feel bad about themselves. So why
Speaker 1: do you think that is though? It's I think they
Speaker 1: hate themselves. It's really weird. Is there any other reason that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's a whole bunch of reasons. I mean,
Speaker 1: and in different you know, there's different reasons for different circumstances. Um. Well,
Speaker 1: you know we talked about last time, like sort of
Speaker 1: when shaming comes from the left, it's it's a sort
Speaker 1: of I don't know, it's like a sort of political
Speaker 1: I think, a kind of you know, misguided political decision
Speaker 1: to sort of reinvent the left as this sort of Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a sort of aggressive um, you know, if you
Speaker 1: don't step out of line, you know, sort of hard.
Speaker 1: I was thinking, like, you know, since since we were
Speaker 1: last together, Trump got elected, I forgot about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot of happened two seconds, a lot had happened.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure, you know, I'm sure that, like you know,
Speaker 1: part of the reason why Trump got elected was because
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of people in Middle America who would
Speaker 1: have voted for Bernie probably, who would have voted for
Speaker 1: somebody who spoke to the working classes, instead looked at
Speaker 1: the left and what the left was doing. And they
Speaker 1: knew this from like, you know, Bright Burton info wars,
Speaker 1: because they were propagandizing the hell out of this stuff.
Speaker 1: Was that, you know, the left was just getting people for,
Speaker 1: like for small transgressions, and then people in Middle America
Speaker 1: would think, well fuck that. Yeah, like that doesn't speak
Speaker 1: to me. Do you really think that a lot of
Speaker 1: people in Middle America would have voted for Bernie over Trump?
Speaker 1: I mean, he's a Jew, though I really don't think
Speaker 1: they would have. Honestly, I think there's still a lot
Speaker 1: of anti Semitism that I mean, even in New York
Speaker 1: that I uncover because I call myself. I can undercover
Speaker 1: jew people don't always know because I'm Italian too, but
Speaker 1: I'm both so got youa uh and so people say
Speaker 1: really shitty things about Jews in front of me all
Speaker 1: the time, and I'm real really yes all the time,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, it's fucking New York guys. I mean,
Speaker 1: the chances that a Jew is in it can hear
Speaker 1: you right now is like, Yeah, there's a guy in
Speaker 1: our building who works in up building who told my
Speaker 1: um son that he was reading a book called Synagogue
Speaker 1: of Satan, And I was thinking, you are really comedy.
Speaker 1: I think if you suspicious of Jews, like where every
Speaker 1: especially the Upper West Side, we see, that just made
Speaker 1: ten more people suspicious or that remark, I don't. I
Speaker 1: just found out I'm je Well, I found out I'm Jewish.
Speaker 1: Since we last talked, forty eight percent of Canaji jewis
Speaker 1: on my mother's side. Yeah, I feel like I feel
Speaker 1: like I've got it. I'm like accepted now by all
Speaker 1: these Jewish people. It makes me so happy. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: really hate anyone who's not jew. She Yeah, canazas Eastern European, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I am. I did, I did, I got
Speaker 1: I got one of those like three meals I did, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I did twenty three and I am sucking nine. But
Speaker 1: it's on my mom's side, all right, all right. I
Speaker 1: didn't come here to get shamed on my judyism, jewishness. Wow,
Speaker 1: you are exceptionally that's the only person who is more Jewish.
Speaker 1: I think I have Morgan Murphy posted hers and it
Speaker 1: was like I was like, yeah, yeah, cool. One of
Speaker 1: the other things that we talked about last tnime was
Speaker 1: porn and you kind of teased a project that you
Speaker 1: were doing in which you were on a porn set,
Speaker 1: and just I just wanted to like you on a
Speaker 1: porn set. Just I have so many questions. Well, I've
Speaker 1: been on so many poems sets since we last talked.
Speaker 1: Let's get into it. Step daughter, cheerlead or jay I
Speaker 1: should experience yeah, oh my god, actually spend Okay, So
Speaker 1: the last time we met, like, I've been on my
Speaker 1: first poem set, and that was a film called Public
Speaker 1: disc Grace. And that's because I was writing about public
Speaker 1: shaming and somebody suggested that I looked into how public
Speaker 1: shame had become a kind of size. So I went
Speaker 1: on the set of Public disgrace. And my big memories
Speaker 1: of public disgrace were the fact that I just went
Speaker 1: on for hours, like, well, that's the one where people
Speaker 1: shouting at the girl in the center, right, Yeah, there
Speaker 1: was a good yeah case you mention that, Yeah, she's
Speaker 1: dragged into the bar. She's called Jody Taylor. She's dragged
Speaker 1: into the bar by Princess Donna from King and then
Speaker 1: everybody in the bar has to like feign surprise. Were
Speaker 1: you one of those people or were you like behind
Speaker 1: the camera guy, No, I was in the bar. You
Speaker 1: were in the porn because you yelled. Okay, this is
Speaker 1: how the last podcast ended. Okay, so we're picking up that, right,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to go look up that video because
Speaker 1: you're actually in it, and I didn't. I didn't yell though,
Speaker 1: like I'm not somebody who would ye in the form film.
Speaker 1: I sat there quietly. What did people say? I remember
Speaker 1: like some because people were like trying their best to
Speaker 1: like they would just be game. They were just trying
Speaker 1: their best. So somebody, somebody shouted out, put ice on
Speaker 1: her teeth? What take that horror? Yeah, well, you know,
Speaker 1: there was a nice drink, and somebody suggested that to
Speaker 1: humiliate this. She has very sensitive enamel. That's why you
Speaker 1: see me is around because people are real bad and improvised. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I inadvertently crept into shot because I just wanted to
Speaker 1: see what was going on and there was such a
Speaker 1: crowd of people, so I sort of correct I crept
Speaker 1: into shot. And then so somewhere there was a pawn
Speaker 1: film called Public Disgrace, and halfway through a kind of
Speaker 1: owl like just pops over with a note pad. What's
Speaker 1: going on over there? Yeah, I think I've ruined. I
Speaker 1: think I think I was a buzz kill. I'm sure
Speaker 1: she loved it. I'm sure. I'm sure it was a
Speaker 1: great addition to the piece. Yeah, I don't think I
Speaker 1: might have mentioned this last time that the other thing
Speaker 1: might have. The big memory of that night was the
Speaker 1: fact that it just went on and on and on
Speaker 1: light like I was ready. I was on New York
Speaker 1: time and it was in l A, so I was
Speaker 1: already tired, and it was like two am, and I
Speaker 1: was just thinking, you know, about the guy, because by
Speaker 1: this time they were having sex, and I was just like, guy,
Speaker 1: please ejaculate. Yeah, I could go to sleep. A lot
Speaker 1: of women think that too, but a different circumstances, millions
Speaker 1: of women before me. So so anyway, I was I
Speaker 1: remember thinking that it was like a good atmosphere. Well
Speaker 1: you know, my tell know what I really remember thinking.
Speaker 1: So I was meeting Princess Donna at the hotel, I
Speaker 1: think it was the next morning or the next afternoon
Speaker 1: at my hotel. And I was staying in a quite
Speaker 1: a fancy West Hollywood hotel, Yeah, the Chateau of Mormon
Speaker 1: and the and I was in my room and the
Speaker 1: the concierge phoned and said, you know, your guest is
Speaker 1: waiting for you on the lobby. So I went down
Speaker 1: to the lobby and everybody in the lobby was wearing
Speaker 1: exactly what I'm now wearing, like kind of gray hoodies,
Speaker 1: like kind of you know, they're all New Yorkers, Yeah,
Speaker 1: sort of inconspicuous colors, except for Princess Donna, who looked
Speaker 1: at this kind of you know, great mad peacock. And
Speaker 1: I walked towards her, and I happened to look over
Speaker 1: at the guy behind the desk, and he was looking
Speaker 1: at her, not realizing that that I was looking at
Speaker 1: him looking at her, and he was looking at her
Speaker 1: with a look of total contempt, and it made me think,
Speaker 1: you know, while there's some there's a lot of people
Speaker 1: out there who are only comfortable with porn people when
Speaker 1: they're on their computers and not in their vicinity. And
Speaker 1: then I thought, you know, with contempt comes in curious nous,
Speaker 1: like he is not going to be curious about her
Speaker 1: her life. Oh that's a great point, and that's a
Speaker 1: dangerous thing. It's true, right, yeah, because curious people are
Speaker 1: often not violent or I don't know, it's there's certain
Speaker 1: attributes to Yeah, I never really thought about that, Damn, John,
Speaker 1: you could Around the same time, I went to this
Speaker 1: radical honesty session at this church school in New Orleans.
Speaker 1: Of course you did, and it was for Actually this
Speaker 1: ended up being in my porn series. A should explained
Speaker 1: that all of this is in the series that I've
Speaker 1: made callup for Audible called The Butterfly Effect. Everything I'm
Speaker 1: telling her so um so. So, when there was this
Speaker 1: girl there from a church, from from this church in
Speaker 1: New Orleans, and she was confessing her secrets, and her
Speaker 1: secret was that she was, in her words, addicted to pawn.
Speaker 1: So afterwards I asked her what porn size did you
Speaker 1: go to? And she said, she said porn herb like,
Speaker 1: of course, like everyone, that's where everyone goes. It's like
Speaker 1: the number one Google search, right. So I said, or
Speaker 1: did you ever like get to get so into it
Speaker 1: that you would reconne is the act is like, oh,
Speaker 1: there's sty And she said no, no, no, and then
Speaker 1: she laughed and she said it's like when you kill
Speaker 1: a deer, you don't name it because then you can't
Speaker 1: eat it. WHOA. So I know she was being very
Speaker 1: self aware, like she knew, like like, yeah, she was
Speaker 1: being self aware when she said that. But again I thought,
Speaker 1: you know, she had to be incurious about porn people
Speaker 1: to not feel bad about herself. True. Yeah, well that's
Speaker 1: that because that creates an emotional distance that allows you
Speaker 1: to take pleasure in something that could be I don't know,
Speaker 1: because there's there's some weird correlation with like horny is
Speaker 1: an anger or like just it's like when a person
Speaker 1: is turned on. Also it's like they're dark. The dark
Speaker 1: side of them is like activated in a weird way.
Speaker 1: I don't know what you go into a fit of passion.
Speaker 1: I think, like I feel like when you're about to
Speaker 1: kill someone or what that would be Like I've never
Speaker 1: killed anyone, don't go just kind of like it's like
Speaker 1: a black It's almost like a blackout, Like there's black
Speaker 1: outrage and then there's blackout horny nous. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: we've horns. We've all had like a blackout horn is
Speaker 1: where you're just like whatever I gotta do right now
Speaker 1: at a time, yeah, and then afterwards you're like, wait,
Speaker 1: what was I doing? And that's why, like that's why
Speaker 1: I Like men have explained that like a lot of times,
Speaker 1: like that's why they'll kick a chick out of bed,
Speaker 1: because I'll do whatever they want and then like almost
Speaker 1: the sight of the woman discussed them afterwards, Like a
Speaker 1: lot of my guy friends have said that because interest
Speaker 1: it disgusts them because of their own exactly the more
Speaker 1: of a self reflection, so once again, you know, I
Speaker 1: funked up. Our own shame means that we then lash
Speaker 1: out against an innocent person, which is just what my
Speaker 1: public shaming books about. Right. We want to hurt people,
Speaker 1: and then we and then we feel bad about hurt
Speaker 1: and then but we don't want to feel bad, so
Speaker 1: we just think, got, I'm sure they're fine. Yeah, Yeah, Honestly,
Speaker 1: that conversation that we had last time. It blew my
Speaker 1: mind and that book just changed how I think about
Speaker 1: and I thought about you a lot. And so is
Speaker 1: ran like throughout the presidency where you feel this urge
Speaker 1: to shame the president and you go, well, he's he
Speaker 1: speaks in a vulgar way. He so I should be
Speaker 1: able to do this. But then it's like why might
Speaker 1: you know? And then you just get into this black
Speaker 1: hole of reasoning. Then you can't figure out what the
Speaker 1: right thing to do is sure because there is this
Speaker 1: thought it's like, okay, well you he's the president, so
Speaker 1: you know it behooves us all if he does a
Speaker 1: good job. It's like, yeah, it's fun to see someone
Speaker 1: you don't like fail, but it's not fun when they're
Speaker 1: running the country that you live in and it affects
Speaker 1: your life. So you want him to do well, but
Speaker 1: he doesn't really have a shot because all the leaders
Speaker 1: of all these foreign countries, I mean except for his
Speaker 1: buddy Putin, are like just outwardly disrespecting him and not
Speaker 1: giving him a chance kind of at anything. So then
Speaker 1: it's like, well, I don't know how to feel about this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like it's like if we're not going to kick
Speaker 1: him out, then shouldn't we kind of like try to
Speaker 1: be behind him as much as we can. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm really conflicted about this. What Yeah,
Speaker 1: what do you think? Because the same thing that you think,
Speaker 1: and you you put your opinions out there, you're the
Speaker 1: only person who's opinion I follow. It's kind of the
Speaker 1: only persons of she really respects it. Well. Honestly, when
Speaker 1: it comes to Trump, I think there's there's no way
Speaker 1: back from the fact that it is. In the speech
Speaker 1: in which he announced his candidacy he called Mexicans rapists,
Speaker 1: and I sort of yeah. So so honestly, my feelings
Speaker 1: about Trump is that, you know, you can have sort
Speaker 1: of nuanced feelings about this and that, but my kind
Speaker 1: of grand theory about Trump is that the moment he
Speaker 1: did that, it's like, you know, how do you how
Speaker 1: do you come back from that? You unveiled who you
Speaker 1: are and who you always will be. It seems, yeah,
Speaker 1: part of the reason why you became president was was
Speaker 1: appealing to like the bassist of emotions and demonizing people
Speaker 1: who shouldn't have been demonized, and so, you know, and
Speaker 1: and he did that throughout his campaign. So I'm creating
Speaker 1: Hillary of course, yeah, and Muslims until we find out
Speaker 1: what the hell is going on? And as a result,
Speaker 1: you know, and then the travel bound happened as soon
Speaker 1: as he became president, and it was like cause I know,
Speaker 1: it only lasted a day before the court stepped in.
Speaker 1: But the kind of you know, the confusion and panic
Speaker 1: and sorrow, you know that that he spread across the world.
Speaker 1: So so my, you know, so I have kind of
Speaker 1: nuanced views about about Trump on you know, sort of
Speaker 1: you know, small but but my sort of my kind
Speaker 1: of my overriding theory about Trump is that he did
Speaker 1: so many bad things to to become president that I've
Speaker 1: got no sympathy from it. Yeah. So then but then,
Speaker 1: so what do you what do you like? What are
Speaker 1: your feeling? So what do we do? Because he is
Speaker 1: the president no matter if we like him or not,
Speaker 1: a matter if he's terrible or not, And like, so
Speaker 1: what do we do? Because I feel like the country
Speaker 1: is in you know, constant state of chaos right now. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's funny. Someone said to me the other day that, like, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: I've got the stren Doo has who's a voice hera?
Speaker 1: I do these shows with her. So she's you know,
Speaker 1: she was diagnosed a schizophrenia and anyway, like the voice
Speaker 1: hero voice HERA, oh that's a nice way. Is that
Speaker 1: a nice voice? Well, she doesn't like the term schizophrenic
Speaker 1: because it's well, it's such an interesting story as a
Speaker 1: digression when I tell you this story. But then, can
Speaker 1: I can we talk about porn some more? Absolutely good?
Speaker 1: We need to go. We need to go off travel.
Speaker 1: Don't worry. We have tons of time. John, We're only
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes. Okay, that's good. Okay, I'm gonna tell you
Speaker 1: my Eleanor's story. And I think in the end of
Speaker 1: office like a potential insight into Trump if you think
Speaker 1: of Trump as a particularly malevolent voice in people's heads. So,
Speaker 1: my friend Eleanor was like, you know, she had a
Speaker 1: rough childhood. You know, there was some abuse there. Then
Speaker 1: she went to college and one day she you know,
Speaker 1: she was fine for the you know, she kind of
Speaker 1: joined the clubs and like you know, film society or whatever.
Speaker 1: And then one day she got out of bed. And
Speaker 1: then she got out of bed, she heard a voice
Speaker 1: that said she is getting out of bed. So Elena
Speaker 1: that looked around and there was no one there. And
Speaker 1: then she left the house and a voice said, she
Speaker 1: is leaving the house. So then she walked down the
Speaker 1: street and the voice said she's walking down the street.
Speaker 1: So for se four weeks this, um, this, this voice
Speaker 1: would just narrate whatever she was doing in the third
Speaker 1: person in quite a benign way, like she you know,
Speaker 1: she was a bit alarmed at first, but after a
Speaker 1: while she was just observatory or not, like, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like a movie. Yeah, like as I said to her,
Speaker 1: like like the world's most boring podcast. Yeah to the bathroom,
Speaker 1: Yeah she is going to anyway. After a few weeks
Speaker 1: of this, she told her flatmate, um, and she said,
Speaker 1: you know, it's funny things happening, like hearing voices. And
Speaker 1: flatmate that said, that's very bad. That it's very very bad.
Speaker 1: You need to go to a doctor. So she went
Speaker 1: to like the college. Doctor ended up said what's wrong
Speaker 1: with you? And Elena said, I've been feeling anxious and
Speaker 1: the doctor said was like kind of palpably bored. I've
Speaker 1: been feeling a bit depressed. And the doctors and what
Speaker 1: I've been hearing a voice and said the doctor like
Speaker 1: spun round. That dropped his pent. So I was incredibly excited.
Speaker 1: We're talking lady. Yeah. So the doctor then sent her
Speaker 1: to a psychiatrist, and the psychiatrist said, you should spend
Speaker 1: a little bit of time in a mental hospital, but
Speaker 1: it's fine, Like there'll be just like table tennis and
Speaker 1: it'll be fine. So I said, okay. So she went
Speaker 1: to like the mental hospital and then got committed and
Speaker 1: was diagnosed with schizophrenia. And the really interesting thing about
Speaker 1: this this story is that like when she was told
Speaker 1: it was bad, it became bad, so the voice has
Speaker 1: got much worse and much more frightening. Like when she
Speaker 1: was told it was bad, and when she was diagnosed
Speaker 1: with schizophrenia, it was no longer one voice. It was
Speaker 1: like fifteen voices or yelling at each other and yelling
Speaker 1: at her. It got so bad that at one point
Speaker 1: to try to drill a hole in her head to
Speaker 1: get the voices out. So that's why Alan sort of
Speaker 1: kind of won't use the word schizophenia because she said,
Speaker 1: like a like a frightening label like that made it worse.
Speaker 1: So anyway, have the power almost yes, and a guilt
Speaker 1: or a shame, yeah, all of those things as opposed
Speaker 1: to like how she began to see the voices, which
Speaker 1: was as as like parts of herself, like um like
Speaker 1: reflections of herself, like friends instead of enemies. So when
Speaker 1: she started to feel that way about the voices and
Speaker 1: stopped like fighting them and battling them, but instead started thinking, well,
Speaker 1: maybe they're sending me messages about my own health. Like
Speaker 1: the voices get a little bit worse when I'm stressed out,
Speaker 1: so that means I should calm down and chill out,
Speaker 1: and then the voices get better. So she learned to
Speaker 1: think of the voices that way, and then she went
Speaker 1: back to college. After like ten years of being committed
Speaker 1: and ten years she was like in the mental health system,
Speaker 1: she went back to college and got the highest degree
Speaker 1: that that particular college had ever given anyone in psychology.
Speaker 1: She's now like a kind of noted act a demic.
Speaker 1: She said. The voices like gave her the answers as
Speaker 1: she was doing her example. Yeah, yeah, she is a
Speaker 1: voice to advantage, and I say to her, like, so
Speaker 1: I interview her on stage as a part of the
Speaker 1: show that I do called psychopath NTE. Not that anything
Speaker 1: to do with her condition was to do with psychopathy,
Speaker 1: but but it's kind of about mental health labeling as well.
Speaker 1: So so um, and you know, I say to her light,
Speaker 1: so when was the last time you heard a voice?
Speaker 1: And she always says, I hear them all the time,
Speaker 1: Like I hear them. I've heard them while I've been
Speaker 1: on stage with you, or I heard them like back
Speaker 1: at the hotel, but they decided to stay at the
Speaker 1: hotel because they didn't want to distract me when I
Speaker 1: was on stage. Anyway, the way this relates to Trump is,
Speaker 1: I honestly, I don't know if this is good at
Speaker 1: first night. It's probably bad advice, but I don't know. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't know if as long as you feel it,
Speaker 1: it's it's your, it's you. Well, it's one perspective that
Speaker 1: may or may not be something I believe in. But
Speaker 1: she said like the more the more she she bought
Speaker 1: against these voices, the worst the voices got. But when
Speaker 1: she respect would not respected, when she sort of gave
Speaker 1: the voices like some time, Um, curious, Yeah, then the
Speaker 1: voices got better. And this is what the Kran did
Speaker 1: in France, right, like all the other European leaders are
Speaker 1: kind of you know, calling Trump and twat the crown
Speaker 1: and fights Trump to Paris, like puts out a big
Speaker 1: you know, pump and you know, sort of ceremony for
Speaker 1: with like the military holds his hand for ages and
Speaker 1: how Trump will do anything from mccrown. So basically, the
Speaker 1: Crown is Eleanor. Trump is the voices, the voices in
Speaker 1: Eleanor's head like that, because it goes along with the
Speaker 1: moment about the wife that maybe the best way to
Speaker 1: kind of control Trump is not because he's he's you know,
Speaker 1: if he's you know, somebody's got such a big narcissism issues,
Speaker 1: is gonna fight back like battling them in some circumstances,
Speaker 1: This isn't gonna work. It's what is your point? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I mean I don't think we should
Speaker 1: just like sit back as the world deteriorates. But I
Speaker 1: mean I think that I think it has to be
Speaker 1: more like we have to just be like more clever
Speaker 1: than him, I think is the key. So it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you don't want to fight everything that he says. You
Speaker 1: just kind of like treat him like an idiot, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's a good idea, what a great idea. Well that's
Speaker 1: what mc gran did him films. It's what Mackie haypen
Speaker 1: and you know the few journalists that he'll talk to.
Speaker 1: Like when you hear a little bit of Mackie Haypman's
Speaker 1: interviewer Trump, she's like she's saying to him, Oh, you
Speaker 1: know that dinner that you had with mccron went on late.
Speaker 1: You must have been very tired by the end of
Speaker 1: the next right, And he's like, yes, I was very sleepy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you want to be nice to get them close, kind
Speaker 1: of get some insight you want. You know, it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, you're with Mafia World, always want to keep
Speaker 1: your enemies close. Like, I mean, I really, I really
Speaker 1: think that's that's smart. Yeah, I think I think I
Speaker 1: think you're onto something. Also, when they when they left,
Speaker 1: well you've seen it happen these past few months. The
Speaker 1: left have have become kind of crazy conspiracy theorists about
Speaker 1: Trump and believe things that aren't true. And you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of crazy conspiracy theories going on because, yeah,
Speaker 1: because of the trauma of being a Trump presidency. But
Speaker 1: that's not helpful when you start really worked about something.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there's this you know that's quote unquote fake
Speaker 1: news is on both sides for sure. Oh no, question.
Speaker 1: It's on both sides. I mean, I spend so much
Speaker 1: time when I see a tweet, when I see a
Speaker 1: thing on Facebook, I spend so much time looking up
Speaker 1: is this real or is this not? And then Snopes
Speaker 1: was a source, but I found out Snopes is just
Speaker 1: also paid, so you can't trust them either. So it's
Speaker 1: like who snopes Snopes? And then I'm just and then
Speaker 1: it's just a black hole. And that's why I don't
Speaker 1: read the news kind of, I mean, because I can
Speaker 1: just like fucking just guess and use like the thirty
Speaker 1: years of experience I have and just make up kind
Speaker 1: of almost as accurate and news stories I'm going to
Speaker 1: get if I read one. Yeah, we weren't it, but
Speaker 1: we need um. I mean, I know that, you know,
Speaker 1: the new terms in Washington Post are doing their best,
Speaker 1: but you know they've made mistakes, They've published things that
Speaker 1: aren't true. Yeah. Yeah, Well, I feel like the reporters
Speaker 1: are so much pressure to just pump out stuff and
Speaker 1: be the first. So it's like, if you want to
Speaker 1: be the first, you don't have that time to fact
Speaker 1: check like you should. It's because it's a competition. Speaking
Speaker 1: of pumping out stuff, can I take you back to
Speaker 1: to the guy in the lobby at the hotel looking
Speaker 1: at looking at Donna with content. You are a writer
Speaker 1: that was wow, beautifually executed, brought us on this journey,
Speaker 1: and then you gently bring us back. I love it.
Speaker 1: So after that I thought, I thought, um, well, I
Speaker 1: had a couple of thoughts. First, I thought, I had
Speaker 1: enjoyed my time on the porn set in the valley
Speaker 1: for public disgrace. I thought it was a kind of
Speaker 1: a little collegiate collegiate okay. And my second thought was,
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about palm people. I don't know
Speaker 1: their concerns, um and I remember that look of contempt
Speaker 1: in that man's face, and I thought, I want to
Speaker 1: know what their lives are like. So I said, the
Speaker 1: first thing I started doing this is maybe eighteen months ago,
Speaker 1: kind of close to two years ago. I started reading
Speaker 1: like blogs written by porn people. Stayer had a blog,
Speaker 1: and a few other people had blogs, and I thought,
Speaker 1: you know what what you know what's concerning them? And
Speaker 1: it turned out that a lot of them were concerned
Speaker 1: about the very same, very particular thing. And it was
Speaker 1: a man called baby and and uh. I kept on
Speaker 1: hearing about babying and how Fabian was ruining their lives.
Speaker 1: Who the fuck is Fabian That was my question, Who
Speaker 1: the fund is Fabian? So it turns out that fabian
Speaker 1: Um single handedly took over porn in around twenty eleven,
Speaker 1: um unprecedented, one person from Brussel coming in and basically
Speaker 1: just taking over porn in in in these very smart
Speaker 1: but pretty ruthless ways, Like how does one just take
Speaker 1: over a porn Well, I can tell you, okay. So
Speaker 1: the first thing he did was by a fledgling website
Speaker 1: which would only be going a few months called porn Hub.
Speaker 1: So he became the owner of porn Hub, which was
Speaker 1: really a small It was getting like a million hits
Speaker 1: a day or something. I suppose so much more than
Speaker 1: that now yeah, oh well now it's like I think
Speaker 1: I can't and thinks that figure. But you know, like
Speaker 1: like I think seventy million hits a day just in America,
Speaker 1: sneak in some education in porn, like secret education and
Speaker 1: can't write for learning, and so much that the porn
Speaker 1: and porn hub is pioted, uploaded by by fans. So
Speaker 1: as a result of that, the valley just slumped because
Speaker 1: you know, you'd make a porn film until Porner came along.
Speaker 1: You'd sell on DVD maybe, or you'd sell on a
Speaker 1: subscription channel online. But now somebody would upload it illegally
Speaker 1: to Pornhub. So the money just sort of flowed overnight.
Speaker 1: The money just flowed from the San Fernando Valley into
Speaker 1: Fabian's bucket. Fabian became so rich that m that in
Speaker 1: his den at his house in Brussels, he had his
Speaker 1: own aquarium that was so big that a diver had
Speaker 1: to come every week to clean to like diving in
Speaker 1: a wet suit and clean the coral reef. Like you
Speaker 1: know you're doing well when you've got your own diver.
Speaker 1: I mean, I just can't have you ever met him.
Speaker 1: I've spoken to him down the line on a number
Speaker 1: of occasions, but I've never met him. I'm just so
Speaker 1: curious as to what who how he is as a person.
Speaker 1: He's a he's a tech nerd Oh well, I mean
Speaker 1: that I'm sure. I wonder if you could have predicted
Speaker 1: when he bought porn hub and he essentially owns all
Speaker 1: of the sites, right, yes, well, let me tell you
Speaker 1: what happened next. So this is when he thinks became quiet.
Speaker 1: I mean he would say, like a like a good
Speaker 1: business plan, but I think from the outside you think, WHOA,
Speaker 1: I mean, stay warm, Marty. So Fabian porn Hub the
Speaker 1: Valley was like panicking because piracy was like killing them.
Speaker 1: Fabian wanted to get a bank loan to help him expand.
Speaker 1: So like, if you're a woman in porn, sometimes you
Speaker 1: found it really hard to get even a checking account
Speaker 1: because you considered like disreputable. It's crazy they get they
Speaker 1: get shut down. The story was telling us when we
Speaker 1: talked to her, like din't for no reason. But then
Speaker 1: all of other porn friends had their bank account shut down.
Speaker 1: It's like what right, Yeah, they're considered disreputable. Whereas Fabian,
Speaker 1: because he wasn't a female porn star, he was a
Speaker 1: male tech entrepreneur who basically wanted to create an empire
Speaker 1: based on the handling of those women stolen porn got
Speaker 1: a three hundred and sixty two million dollar alone from
Speaker 1: a hedge fund. And that is the disparity as a
Speaker 1: great metaphor for the disparities between men and also men
Speaker 1: and women. But also I think but also like people, yeah,
Speaker 1: people who are deemed respectable, people who were deemed unrespectable. Yes, absolutely, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Fabing being a male tech entrepreter, like, of course he's
Speaker 1: going to get three in sixty million dollars. So he
Speaker 1: then used that money to go to the valley who
Speaker 1: were like panicking because piracy was killing them, and then
Speaker 1: he bought all all their companies at cut price rates.
Speaker 1: So then like like now, well not now because he's
Speaker 1: out of the business now, but because he got embroiled
Speaker 1: in tax evasion charges. But at one point in about
Speaker 1: of everybody in the world who watched porn was watching
Speaker 1: it on one of his sites. Um it means like incredible. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I talked to this guy called Brandon, who was
Speaker 1: the head of porn Hub's mobile division. His name would
Speaker 1: be Brandon. So so on the plus side, if you've
Speaker 1: ever watched porn up on the mobile, you've got Brandon
Speaker 1: to thank thanks. I do. And sometimes I acidentally dropped
Speaker 1: my phone on my face. I'm like, oh, but that's
Speaker 1: the only downside of watching porn your phone, right, So
Speaker 1: I said to Brandon, you know, did you ever like
Speaker 1: set foot on the porn set. He was like no, no, no,
Speaker 1: Like people who worked for porn hub never set foot
Speaker 1: on the porn set because their tech people and they
Speaker 1: wouldn't feel comfortable on the porn set. So I said, well,
Speaker 1: isn't isn't there a kind of negative consequence to that,
Speaker 1: because it means you're not able to see the negative
Speaker 1: consequences of all of that, you know, free porn, pot porn. Good,
Speaker 1: thank you, And he went their livelihoods whoa and he
Speaker 1: said he said, businesses changed and you have to adapt.
Speaker 1: So that was his and that's who he is, right, Well,
Speaker 1: I mean that's often how you become of business. I
Speaker 1: mean a successful pusiness. And there's very few people who
Speaker 1: are like top business owners who didn't do something shitty.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's good, I'm not. That's what the
Speaker 1: guy in the lobby did, though, the princess. I mean
Speaker 1: that's in order to morally continue his job. He could
Speaker 1: not humanize. And then Blending went on and said to me,
Speaker 1: so do you think YouTube didn't exist? And I had
Speaker 1: to agree, you know that I don't think YouTube shouldn't exist.
Speaker 1: So you know, it's not like he's a he's a
Speaker 1: bond villain. He said, he's a tech he's a tech utopian. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she'll say, I mean it's so weird. I think about
Speaker 1: it's kind of like this a similar concept all the time,
Speaker 1: because it's like, I do want to be really successful
Speaker 1: in the entertainment business, but there's just too many instances
Speaker 1: already when I've been presented with things were like to
Speaker 1: get more ahead, I would have had to do something shitty,
Speaker 1: and I just don't want to do that. So it's like,
Speaker 1: do you just say, Okay, well, I'm gonna sleep at
Speaker 1: night knowing that I'm a moral person who is like
Speaker 1: less successful. Make me make a little bit. I know,
Speaker 1: I think in the long run, yeah, that's what you
Speaker 1: do for sure, but but it's and it's but it's frustrating.
Speaker 1: That's such a nonetheless. I mean, it's all human Yeah no,
Speaker 1: I yeah. Hey, these are kind of confusing times when
Speaker 1: people are sort of all the world and we're just
Speaker 1: catching up. And part of the reason why we're what
Speaker 1: we don't quite know what to think is because you know,
Speaker 1: they're basically giving people what they want, which is free porn.
Speaker 1: But then people like Story and all these porn stars
Speaker 1: are angry. You noticed they were all angry because that
Speaker 1: affects their livelihood, their paycheck there everything. So I wanted
Speaker 1: to do you people up in Montreal, which is where
Speaker 1: Paul herb HQ is never going there. This week, we
Speaker 1: are going there this shield trip. Can you give us
Speaker 1: a little directions the code to the door. It's an
Speaker 1: anonymous looking glass building just off a freeway. Cool Google
Speaker 1: see where it takes us. Now it's called mind Geek
Speaker 1: used to be called man. When Stayer said to me,
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't story doesn't appear in our series
Speaker 1: because I recorded her on a really shifty little dictophone
Speaker 1: and the same policy was too bad. But she was
Speaker 1: just about the first person I met for my research,
Speaker 1: and she said, it's not a coincidence that when Faye
Speaker 1: be and bought the company he changed its name to
Speaker 1: man Win. Yeah, I was just gonna say man Win.
Speaker 1: Why sears it is a coincidence? And he talks about slip, Yeah,
Speaker 1: what a man would me? And then well, he used
Speaker 1: to be everything. He used to be called man Seth
Speaker 1: before he bought the company. So he just wanted like
Speaker 1: another He said, he wanted another six letter words which
Speaker 1: began with an end, and man Wind sounded good because men. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's why I know why it sounded good. But that
Speaker 1: humanization thing like I think you had talked to Storia
Speaker 1: by the time we interviewed you the first time, because
Speaker 1: we were talking that my boyfriend Data and I told
Speaker 1: a story on us a Comedy Central show about basically
Speaker 1: following a porn storm feeling masculated and stuff. But the
Speaker 1: that one, I don't know if I brought this up
Speaker 1: the last time we were on, but that line she
Speaker 1: said to me where it's She said, it feels like
Speaker 1: I'm standing on top of a pedestal inside a garbage can.
Speaker 1: That was like, she's so, she's so brilliant with words
Speaker 1: and uh, and that struck me. But one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why I hated hearing that and I felt discussed
Speaker 1: because it made me realize that I was part of
Speaker 1: the garbage. And I feel like that's that every person
Speaker 1: who watches porn has to at some point, uh, distance
Speaker 1: themselves morally from That's why it gets so animalistic and
Speaker 1: and I don't know why people can dive in and
Speaker 1: enjoy it right, which is also by the way, the
Speaker 1: other thing I've done since I met your last was
Speaker 1: this film. And that's what thank you. That's what I
Speaker 1: was just about right to eat the mate you have
Speaker 1: to pretend this no slot, Yeah, no, I know. I
Speaker 1: was like I was already like almost really considering going pesketarian.
Speaker 1: And I was like, no, I fucking have to that
Speaker 1: wasn't even know what you eat me, right, No, No,
Speaker 1: I'm pesctarian. Vegetarians call us pescetarians. Fish and rites. Oh
Speaker 1: my god. Well, I mean I just like, you know,
Speaker 1: at a certain point, I just can't have gas all
Speaker 1: the time, so I gotta eat some fish. Well, there
Speaker 1: was there at the end of Ocha where I was questioning, oh,
Speaker 1: is I wonder if, like I bet some people are
Speaker 1: saying this is a propaganda film because there but you're not, uh,
Speaker 1: like the way that the aims get slaughtered and stuff,
Speaker 1: But that's just also how it has it's seccurate, there's truth.
Speaker 1: And also the way Bong directs the slaughter house scene
Speaker 1: and at the end of oak Chat it's not even
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's actually humane slaughter like that the
Speaker 1: the animal dies in a in an instant. So you
Speaker 1: can't even accuse Bob of light portraying the slaughter houses
Speaker 1: like you know, horrific. He portrayed as truthful in it, right,
Speaker 1: and so the horror of it is. It's it's not
Speaker 1: exploitative to that Sunds so and when they were all
Speaker 1: and that, when they were walking past, and then all
Speaker 1: of the other animals were on the other side of
Speaker 1: the fence and they were crowded, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: and they're crying. And I mean, because animals do have feelings.
Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, I was talking to have,
Speaker 1: like you know what animals can Elephants can cry and
Speaker 1: a lot of other animals can't cry. But it's like,
Speaker 1: if you think that animals don't have very deep feelings,
Speaker 1: like obviously you've never owned a fucking animal or had
Speaker 1: a pet or like been in a place with an animal. Like,
Speaker 1: animals are very smart and they have lots of feelings.
Speaker 1: Obviously there's different kinds and you know, funk fish, but
Speaker 1: fish whatever make me a walk No, I mean I
Speaker 1: still get sad when I hate when people like fish
Speaker 1: for sport because I'm just like, I'm just like, you're
Speaker 1: putting that the fish through so much terror and ripping
Speaker 1: its mouth and then throwing it back. I mean, can't
Speaker 1: just let use something fake? I don't know that's I'm like,
Speaker 1: if you're going to eat it at least like coming
Speaker 1: full circle. Yeah, I don't know very that's me. But
Speaker 1: but in answer to your question, I know not that
Speaker 1: when when bum bum the first draft and then me
Speaker 1: and him collaborated and all the subsequent drafts, and at
Speaker 1: no point where we like, you know, this is great,
Speaker 1: we're making a pro vegan moving making a propaganda film.
Speaker 1: It was never about that. I have noticed that, like
Speaker 1: Peter and the animal rights groups are like really going
Speaker 1: for ucture. It's like as as a as a way
Speaker 1: of getting people going for it. So and I'm glad
Speaker 1: you like, I want people to like way less annoying
Speaker 1: than Peter. Yeah, I mean, I hear what they're standing for,
Speaker 1: but god damn, could you be any more annoying? That know,
Speaker 1: I want people to like what I do. So I'm
Speaker 1: sort of happy for any praise. But that wasn't the
Speaker 1: intention of the film, right, And in fact, you know,
Speaker 1: media's favorite media eats chicken stew in the film Fish,
Speaker 1: So you know, so she doesn't become a vegan at
Speaker 1: the end of the movie. It'd be really funny if
Speaker 1: she did an alternate ending. Well, I feel like it's
Speaker 1: more about her her friendship. It's about Yeah, it's about
Speaker 1: her realization about how the world works, and his animals
Speaker 1: are pure, pure souls. It's the same as my Butterfly fad,
Speaker 1: as my porn series. It's about it's about it's about
Speaker 1: looking inside the slaughterhouse in terms of Paul, and the
Speaker 1: slaughterhouse isn't porn sets, but it's the tech takeover of
Speaker 1: the porn industry. And do you talk to various porn
Speaker 1: stars in this series. Well, yes, So after I heard
Speaker 1: about Fabian and interviewed Fabian, I thought, I want to
Speaker 1: do what none of these people do, which is I
Speaker 1: want to go to the valley and kind of see
Speaker 1: look at you meet them, and look at the consequences
Speaker 1: of the tech takeover the porn industry. So the entire series,
Speaker 1: The Butterfly Effect, is like a seven part series, and
Speaker 1: the entire series is that it's looking at consequences and
Speaker 1: also consequence through the consequence, through the consequence, so you
Speaker 1: end up in like the most unexpected, like crazy places. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's sort of structurally, I think, quite a kind
Speaker 1: of novel way of telling a story because there because
Speaker 1: if you think if it's a busterfly effects, so the
Speaker 1: flap of the Butterfly's Wings is Fabians business plan and
Speaker 1: then the consequences are just go to the most crazy places. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which and the joy of the series, I think is
Speaker 1: this adventure where it's like, fuck, well, I'll give you
Speaker 1: one example. By the end of episode two, um as
Speaker 1: a direct consequence of Fabian's business plan, a man in
Speaker 1: Norway is commissioning three women to destroy his beloved stamp
Speaker 1: collection and and those two things are connected. So for me,
Speaker 1: the fun of the Best Flare Effects is like the
Speaker 1: journey for from you know, tech in Montreal through to
Speaker 1: st Yeah, exactly. So that's the kind of joy of it.
Speaker 1: And so when you decided to like, you wanted to
Speaker 1: do this, so you decided on your own. This was
Speaker 1: your own idea. No one like pitched it. This was
Speaker 1: your experience. I created this. And then did you pitch
Speaker 1: it to someone and say, hey, this is this thing
Speaker 1: that I want to do. Do you want to be
Speaker 1: a part of it or yes? So at the same time,
Speaker 1: Audible and I was like a fan of Audible anyway
Speaker 1: because I listened to audiobooks all the time, and and
Speaker 1: also I know that lots of people who read my
Speaker 1: books do it via me. Yeah, I had. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: you've been public ashamed. I have the audio, Yes, so
Speaker 1: I knew that voice like that, I mean yeah. So
Speaker 1: Audible said to me that they were doing original content
Speaker 1: and didn't have any ideas. So I thought, well, I
Speaker 1: want to do this porn thing, and I know that
Speaker 1: like Audible, people like like Audible subscribe. I was liked
Speaker 1: me and I like Audible, so I pitched it to them.
Speaker 1: So I started doing it like on my own, working
Speaker 1: with the producer in London called Lucy Greenwell for a
Speaker 1: few months, and then Audible put me together with Lena
Speaker 1: Lena mass et Ses who became like my collaborator in this,
Speaker 1: and Lena kind of embedded herself in the valley for
Speaker 1: a year. Um, so there was no hesitancy about like
Speaker 1: Audible doing a project about porn at any point. If
Speaker 1: there was hesitancy, it didn't kind of get to me. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's awesome, Yeah, great, that is great. It's probably because
Speaker 1: I sort of said to them, look like I want
Speaker 1: this to be. You know, it's an adventure story. It's
Speaker 1: a mystery story, a lighthearted journey Nancy drew. But everyone's
Speaker 1: naked and having sex, like if Nancy Drew Bowder stepbrother.
Speaker 1: So you know, honestly, I think they were like happy
Speaker 1: that I was making an original series for them. Maybe
Speaker 1: deep people ever had they just they very recently started
Speaker 1: doing Yeah, so they're doing one with Esther pan about
Speaker 1: Oh my god, her infidelity Ted talk is amazing. You
Speaker 1: should get her own. She's she's doing something I would
Speaker 1: love to. Yeah, and they're they're doing sort of a
Speaker 1: few others, but this this one is probably the most
Speaker 1: like highly produced, Like, this one's probably like that's like
Speaker 1: the best one. Well, I know that the ester Pro
Speaker 1: one has been very popular. People like that one a lot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have no idea whether this one's going to be
Speaker 1: because because it's not coming up for another two days.
Speaker 1: Oh it is, okay, I have have by this time
Speaker 1: we're with this that you might not be able to answer.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it gives it away, but will
Speaker 1: it Will it ruin porn for people? No? Okay, No,
Speaker 1: it's not. That's why everyone's not watching those meat to
Speaker 1: ask you hamburgers forever. No, it definitely won't ruin porn
Speaker 1: for people. They porn people, the porn people in Ah.
Speaker 1: You know me, I don't do things about kind of
Speaker 1: good guys and bad guys. But if this was a
Speaker 1: series about good guys and bad guys, which it's not,
Speaker 1: the good guys would be the poorn people and the
Speaker 1: bad guys would be the tech people. Oh well, that's well,
Speaker 1: I mean, who doesn't want to villainize? I mean, that's
Speaker 1: what I would expect. And we will make us more
Speaker 1: conscious about the kind of porn we are consuming. Yes,
Speaker 1: they would definitely make you where that it's not good
Speaker 1: to watch piotic porn. And that's good because I remember
Speaker 1: Storia had trench coat her website. I don't know if
Speaker 1: that's still going off, the company's still going I'm I'm
Speaker 1: not sure, but I create I can't watch it because
Speaker 1: of my relationship with her. To Storia, I just can't.
Speaker 1: It's that that whole, the whole necessity to remove yourself
Speaker 1: from the person you're watching and able to enjoy it.
Speaker 1: I can't do that anymore. But I when I learned
Speaker 1: about that, how how how much porn is stolen, and
Speaker 1: how it's morally you should be buying your porn and
Speaker 1: no one cares because it's poor, really cares. When it's
Speaker 1: like musicians, who's whose music not lime? Wire doesn't really
Speaker 1: exist anymore up everyone's compute, but I I certainly did
Speaker 1: illegally download music, and what we need is like a
Speaker 1: Spotify for porn though, like, is there is there a
Speaker 1: site that has like a cheap price, like ten dollars
Speaker 1: a month for porn. That's a really good question. I
Speaker 1: could do that, but it's like, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: pay a crazy high subscription price because I just don't
Speaker 1: watch porn that often enough for that it makes sense,
Speaker 1: I do I should subscribe as something, because I was
Speaker 1: actually thinking of subscribing to Churn to cope, But I
Speaker 1: also can't watch Tooya because of your relationship because we
Speaker 1: talked about her too much and it's too personal. Now,
Speaker 1: did you have a did you have do you have
Speaker 1: a talk to about the fact that you had a boyfriends?
Speaker 1: I mean, that's here, that's the story that I told
Speaker 1: on the this is not happening Garman Central was feeling
Speaker 1: like less of a woman because I was the girlfriend.
Speaker 1: After story. What did she say? Um, she was very
Speaker 1: sensitive to that in a very sweet way. Well, I've
Speaker 1: had a message her a lot lately because of the book.
Speaker 1: Like our legal department, it was like, you need to
Speaker 1: give permission from Stoya to say that she sports like
Speaker 1: a fire hose. Uh And there's just like the emails
Speaker 1: back and forth were amazing. And then I keep texting
Speaker 1: her like, hey, sorry about all these kind of talk
Speaker 1: about your request, but it's it okay if I tell
Speaker 1: the time about how I found your butthole flesh light
Speaker 1: while her apartment was flooding to her in case Sandy,
Speaker 1: and she's like, yeah, she's a great sense of humor
Speaker 1: and she's awesome, and she she's always very she's sensitive
Speaker 1: to the fact that I feel weird and famasculated, and
Speaker 1: which is very nice of her too. What does she say?
Speaker 1: What was that the best thing that she said about that?
Speaker 1: About that particular things she said now that when she
Speaker 1: dates people, well the trash can the pedestals out of
Speaker 1: garbage camp was that line. I'll never forget. But she
Speaker 1: said now when she dates people, she gives them this
Speaker 1: little talk when she breaks up with them. Before she
Speaker 1: starts dating, I'm like, hey, now you might have other girls.
Speaker 1: You're gonna have other girlfriends after me, and they might
Speaker 1: feel weird. Okay anyway, And I was like, do you
Speaker 1: do that because of me? She goes, yeah, kind of
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, thanks, What did she say
Speaker 1: after that you might have had a boyfriend, Yeah, other
Speaker 1: girlfriends that they might have a hard time of the
Speaker 1: fact that you dated me. So before we date, do
Speaker 1: you want you just know that and know that you
Speaker 1: should handle it with sensitivity and you know, just she's
Speaker 1: very I like her a lot, and she's a really
Speaker 1: brilliant writer, and she has this like sassiness to her
Speaker 1: that I think is really great. Um, but yeah, it was,
Speaker 1: but it's so it was uncomfortable for me to be like, thanks,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it felt weird. But I happened to
Speaker 1: notice today it because I fellow on Twitter she posted
Speaker 1: a picture of herself doing like a stussy campaign. That
Speaker 1: always makes me feel happy when the porn stuff gets
Speaker 1: sort of mainstream, Yeah, because it's sort of blurs the
Speaker 1: lines between what's considered respectable and what's not. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, but yeah, when we when we interviewed her,
Speaker 1: and she was talking about just the way people treat
Speaker 1: her and stuff and how um she a lot of
Speaker 1: times on a landlord will maker on a least application
Speaker 1: when she puts what she does, she have to pay
Speaker 1: a full years where the run up front, right, and
Speaker 1: that is fucking and you know what, Comparatively, I would
Speaker 1: say she has it lucky because she said to me,
Speaker 1: like she's been on the cover of the Village Voice.
Speaker 1: She's like the sort of hipster porn person. That was
Speaker 1: a big part of my story. It was a couple
Speaker 1: of months into dating. It was and the headline was
Speaker 1: the prettiest girl in New York as a porn star.
Speaker 1: When I was already feeling self conscious, she was on
Speaker 1: every fucking corner with her face, was just staring at me,
Speaker 1: and I was, yeah, thing, go along with her look though,
Speaker 1: because she has this kind of like natural look that
Speaker 1: you don't see a lot in porn. So it's like
Speaker 1: you can't look at her and be like, that's a
Speaker 1: porn star. That's the she fits the stereotype of a
Speaker 1: porn star because she doesn't she's super flatch us right
Speaker 1: out of the gate, really pale, kind of like thin
Speaker 1: not I mean like that's just and and so I
Speaker 1: think they're like, oh, well, we can pass her. I
Speaker 1: was like this like almost like an approachable porn star,
Speaker 1: and I think it's more digestible for people. Um, So,
Speaker 1: can I tell you about one or two of the things,
Speaker 1: because I was really interested in the consequences of Yeah,
Speaker 1: tell you one two of these things, because I kind
Speaker 1: of unexpected and interesting. Yes please. So I think some
Speaker 1: of the things that you think when tech techs over pool,
Speaker 1: you'd sort of imagine what the consequences are. So, you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of mom and popcorn producers are going out
Speaker 1: of business. Um, a lot of performers are going into escorting,
Speaker 1: which I think, you know, there was always an amount of,
Speaker 1: but I think it's really to rely on animal Yeah,
Speaker 1: like that's way more than before. A few porn people
Speaker 1: told me that, like, like escorting is like way more
Speaker 1: than it used to be before Paul came along. So
Speaker 1: that's another. Um. Another thing is that, Okay, here's one.
Speaker 1: This is one of my favorite ones, favorite in a
Speaker 1: kind of dark way. So I was on the set
Speaker 1: of Stepdaughter Cheerleader Orgy that was nice. What was that about?
Speaker 1: Well exactly. So I was like, so the director, Mike
Speaker 1: quas I said, you know, one of the biggest consequences
Speaker 1: of the tech takeover of porn is that all the
Speaker 1: titles need to be keyword searchable nowadays. So I said, so,
Speaker 1: it didn't used to be that way and said none
Speaker 1: of the first porn film I ever liked wrote a
Speaker 1: script for what was? He called it an idiotic script
Speaker 1: for his head, was called Women of Influence. They took
Speaker 1: their artistic integrity out, of creative integrity, out of the titles.
Speaker 1: It's like a kind of arms race of keywords, like
Speaker 1: because it's like scrabbling their way up the necklace too.
Speaker 1: Exactly when people are horny, they're stupid. I think everybody,
Speaker 1: every person, no one is, no one is immune from that.
Speaker 1: Who wants women of influence when you've got stepdaughter, cheerleader
Speaker 1: or g Exactly. So I said to Mike, I thought
Speaker 1: about this for a minute because like the back of
Speaker 1: my mind, I thought, well, like, you know, the Women
Speaker 1: of Influence sounds generally like a more kind of holistic
Speaker 1: poured film that stepped oil. So I've never seen Women
Speaker 1: of Influence. But maybe all I know is that the
Speaker 1: model of the film is that women shouldn't have influenced.
Speaker 1: But my feeling is that it should be like I
Speaker 1: think it's like influencing your to get Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: think it's creating a business, so I said to Mike. So,
Speaker 1: you know, if everything's reliant on keywords. Now, if it's
Speaker 1: all keyword other people in the valley who like live
Speaker 1: in a kind of hinter land between keywords, who can't
Speaker 1: get work, like they're like people who just aren't keywordy
Speaker 1: enough to get work. And the answer was, and this
Speaker 1: sort of blew me away, the answer is, you know, yes,
Speaker 1: if you're a twenty five year old woman, import now
Speaker 1: you can't get work because you're too old to be
Speaker 1: a teen and you're too young to be a milf.
Speaker 1: So there's this eight or nine year period, these kind
Speaker 1: of follow years between teen and milf where it's like,
Speaker 1: you can't get I'm not a teen, I'm not yet
Speaker 1: a mill Yeah yeah, yeah. So I said, so at
Speaker 1: what age do they become like a milk and become
Speaker 1: employable again? And he said, well, I try and use
Speaker 1: thirty as my guideline, although then Mike's assistant Jacob said it,
Speaker 1: but if they're twenty nine and they've actually had four kids,
Speaker 1: then you know they could milf. Um It isn't that
Speaker 1: I mean, isn't that such an extraordinary insight into not
Speaker 1: just porn but the Internet? Right, You've got to if
Speaker 1: you're not a teen and you're not a male flight.
Speaker 1: You're just you can just appeal to my dumbst instincts
Speaker 1: and you're hired. Yeah, nothing, nothing, Wow. I know. So
Speaker 1: that now, I wouldn't say that Fabian's intended for that
Speaker 1: to happen like he would. He was never smart enough
Speaker 1: to kind of you know, imagine that that would happen.
Speaker 1: But that's definitely a consequence of all of those kind
Speaker 1: of tech utopians up in Montreal that like twenty five
Speaker 1: year old woman in porn just can't get work. They
Speaker 1: just have to sit there to this sort of mature
Speaker 1: into a mill employable again incredible. Well, and we and
Speaker 1: you know what, you know what fascinates me so that
Speaker 1: women in porn have a hard time earning a decent living.
Speaker 1: Like to me in my head before I met story,
Speaker 1: like she's probably a millionaire, she's been always coverage, she's
Speaker 1: been in a daily show, she's been ever, you know,
Speaker 1: and she somebody of our fans of her. No, not
Speaker 1: at all, not the case. And and then we interviewed
Speaker 1: a humiliatrix which was so fascinating as girl Sierra, and
Speaker 1: she sells her she sold her poop in a suppleware
Speaker 1: container twice for four or thousand dollars each. Um she
Speaker 1: has an ignore line where men will call her and
Speaker 1: then she gets paid to ignore them and tell them
Speaker 1: they're fucking idiots. And I'm like, what and so, But
Speaker 1: she has two homes, cars, she owns, she's making more
Speaker 1: money than these porn stars. Well, that doesn't surprise her.
Speaker 1: Idea was unique though true, but it's also simple, I get.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just honing in on a kink, someone's kink.
Speaker 1: Does she get paid if she just doesn't kind of
Speaker 1: reply to their emails? I don't know that. I didn't
Speaker 1: ask she email stuff. She talked about some email things.
Speaker 1: I think that was more like trying to like things
Speaker 1: where almost getting caught by the wife. Yeah, the guy
Speaker 1: would rack out a scenario, right, Well, that doesn't surprise me,
Speaker 1: even though I didn't know that particular thing that you
Speaker 1: just said. But because the way that porn people are
Speaker 1: making money now, especially in those sort of you know,
Speaker 1: hint to land years between teen and milf is to
Speaker 1: um is to have these one on one relationships with
Speaker 1: their clients, just like the woman that you just said.
Speaker 1: Now in that could be escorting, but it could be
Speaker 1: something more surprising and interesting. I think, which is this
Speaker 1: other thing that we discovered when we were in the valley,
Speaker 1: which was customs like bespoke porn films. So if you've
Speaker 1: got like a particular niche, that's so unusual that there's
Speaker 1: just no porn film out there that that does it
Speaker 1: or skill. Um, it could be either, but I'm thinking
Speaker 1: like niche, then they'll make it for you, so you
Speaker 1: write the script. So, yeah, that bespoke poor I this, Yes,
Speaker 1: So there's teams of professional porn people in houses across
Speaker 1: the valley who are kind of conjuring into life, entire
Speaker 1: porn films for just one person. How much is there, Well,
Speaker 1: it depends on how complicated the scenario is. That the
Speaker 1: very the very first one we heard about on the
Speaker 1: step of Stepdaughter on the set of step or Cheerle Orgy,
Speaker 1: because I think it's Mike these days has to shoot
Speaker 1: everything himself. How many times can you say that I
Speaker 1: love it? Keep saying it is that the new jo? Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: now it's not going to be there that gives me
Speaker 1: any accident. It's yeah, stepdaughters, stepdaughter. So usually Mike shoots alone.
Speaker 1: Now because you know, budgets are so kind to raise
Speaker 1: a thin that kind of profits, so mchy thing. But
Speaker 1: because on Stepdaughter Cheerle Orgy, nine people are having sex
Speaker 1: at once, he might have to employ a second cameraman
Speaker 1: like for coverage. So it was just kind of bit. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it was this guy called Nate Nate Liqueur Liqueur
Speaker 1: who Mike used to work with all the time in
Speaker 1: the pre porn hub days. But Nature just happened to
Speaker 1: mention to me and Lena, um, oh, this is like
Speaker 1: an unusual day for me, like shooting real porn. And
Speaker 1: so I said, so, what do you normally do? And
Speaker 1: he said, oh, customs. I said, what's that? And he
Speaker 1: said he said what I said to you? So I
Speaker 1: said to what's the kind of you know, give some
Speaker 1: examples and he said, well, there was one guy they
Speaker 1: never actually made this film, but this was the first
Speaker 1: one he told us about. There was one guy who
Speaker 1: wanted them to buy a van and it was a
Speaker 1: particular kind of van off of Craig's list. Um like,
Speaker 1: it was a specific van and he wanted these He
Speaker 1: wanted to fill the van with women who would like
Speaker 1: drive around the desert for a week in this van,
Speaker 1: smoke cigarettes in the van, p in the van, and
Speaker 1: then at the end of the week, they would drive
Speaker 1: the van out to the desert where they would blow
Speaker 1: it up. I mean, this sounds awesome, I know, But
Speaker 1: where's the porn part where they while they were there?
Speaker 1: He didn't mention that, damn. But I think some people's
Speaker 1: like what they get off on it is not necessarily
Speaker 1: like intercourse. It's just like financial domination was one of
Speaker 1: the things that like, I like when not watching people clean.
Speaker 1: Remember we talked about that. That's an actual kink. Oh,
Speaker 1: you get turned on by that. Yeah, when you get
Speaker 1: turned on when I clean my house? No, not, I
Speaker 1: mean just clean all the time. I can't have like
Speaker 1: a personal relationship with the Yeah. Yeah, but and that's
Speaker 1: actually like a thing like it's more like because it's
Speaker 1: just like a like it's like there, it's like there's
Speaker 1: a rhythmic kind of like it lulls you, like a lullaby.
Speaker 1: Like it's calming, like when someone does make up that's
Speaker 1: also calming. It does that include like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: filling the dishwasher does that? No, it has to be
Speaker 1: there has to be like some kind of emotion like
Speaker 1: a like a dusting motion or like a wiping down motion.
Speaker 1: It's the motion. I think, yeah, like if you're washing
Speaker 1: the dishes in the sink, that can work ashwasher? Now
Speaker 1: that doesn't do it for me? How much clanking? So wait,
Speaker 1: with this custom porn video, did the women actually stay
Speaker 1: in the van that entire I mean that torture? Well,
Speaker 1: on that occasion, they had to budget it like unreasonably
Speaker 1: high because they needed, like how a fire marshal to
Speaker 1: like you know, oversee the exploding of the van. So
Speaker 1: they had to budget it at dollars and the guy
Speaker 1: never went ahead with it. It was too much, damn it.
Speaker 1: So that van video does not exist. Now when these
Speaker 1: things that made or they do, does the person who
Speaker 1: pays for them or commission them literally just get a
Speaker 1: hard drive with the file on it? Or can they
Speaker 1: share it? Doesn't go on pornhub eventually? What Well, there's
Speaker 1: two ways of doing it, like if you pay a
Speaker 1: little bit extra. This was very very handily for us
Speaker 1: because I wanted to like include some clips of these
Speaker 1: custom porn films in our series. Handily for us, the
Speaker 1: custom producers always retained copyright, so I didn't have to
Speaker 1: like ask the client's permission, because I'm sure they would
Speaker 1: have said no, I'll just not got back to us
Speaker 1: or whatever. Uh. But so sometimes the customs producers will
Speaker 1: put the film on so that their own site and
Speaker 1: then somebody else can buy it off off the internet.
Speaker 1: But then often it's just for that one person. I
Speaker 1: would be pissed if I had a coustom porn film
Speaker 1: and then everyone was watching it and it's not special,
Speaker 1: you know exactly because they write the scripts, they choose
Speaker 1: the camera angles, this this this porn style. We became
Speaker 1: friends with called Casey calvert um uh told us, like
Speaker 1: the one time it got kind of tense was that
Speaker 1: she shot a film for this guy and he got
Speaker 1: really annoyed with her because one of the camera angles
Speaker 1: was wrong. She wanted a roll shop. He wanted all
Speaker 1: shop from the front, and she started a segment of
Speaker 1: it from the back, and that was like disgusting for him.
Speaker 1: It was like the grossest, the grossest. You just have
Speaker 1: to tell such a fine line with these people when
Speaker 1: they're like in terms of like fulfilling a a kink
Speaker 1: or a fantasy of some sort, it's like, damn. But
Speaker 1: that is the only negative story that we heard. Most
Speaker 1: of the time, the relationships between the clients and the
Speaker 1: customs producers were very positive. Oh that's great. What that
Speaker 1: surprised you that you learned well while making the series vulnerable,
Speaker 1: like or with all of one, well, all the things
Speaker 1: I just said, Well, you know, Fabian has changed the world.
Speaker 1: For instance, you know, how does every two of your
Speaker 1: old kid in the world learn about sex these days?
Speaker 1: And which porns that did they go to? Always Pornhu
Speaker 1: one of their umbrella sides. Yeah, like you poored or
Speaker 1: red Shirt, but it's usually porn Hub. It's like the
Speaker 1: thirty eight most popular website in the world. Fabian doesn't
Speaker 1: want to think about this. He doesn't want to think
Speaker 1: about the consequences when you talk to him, did you
Speaker 1: force him to think about the consequences. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I tried. There was a few things that he said, okay,
Speaker 1: you know, yes, I worry about that. One thing he said, okay,
Speaker 1: I worry about that was the fact that porn Hub like.
Speaker 1: A positive thing about porn Ub, obviously is that it's
Speaker 1: sort of the you know, the kind of big goody
Speaker 1: of porn means that porn is destigmatized. So it's not
Speaker 1: as as shameful to watch Paul now as it would
Speaker 1: have been like twenty years ago. So and obviously that's
Speaker 1: a positively anything that destigmatized is sexy is good. Um.
Speaker 1: But one consequence of it is that the valley is
Speaker 1: like full of young women who grew up on pornhub.
Speaker 1: Think that looks like a cool career move. They come
Speaker 1: to the valley like there's more women trying to make
Speaker 1: it imporn now than like ever before. Yeah, and as
Speaker 1: Mike Quasi said to us, in the old days, like
Speaker 1: there was a little bit of a sort of Scott
Speaker 1: you were body in Clyde. If you wanted to go
Speaker 1: to the Valley, it was just like, oh, you're like
Speaker 1: a runaway, I don't know, rebel, Yeah exactly, but not anymore.
Speaker 1: So a consequence of that is the valleyes like inundated
Speaker 1: with women, which means that unless you're one of the
Speaker 1: very very few porn stars who can somehow be a
Speaker 1: porn star now usually by signing up to this agency
Speaker 1: called the Spieglue Agencies. Guy Mark Spiegler, I've heard of
Speaker 1: him and the Heart Girls Wanted documentary think, so he's
Speaker 1: still a kind of golden sail of approval, but he
Speaker 1: only takes like twenty five women at any one time. Um,
Speaker 1: so unless you can get yourself to be a spiegler
Speaker 1: girls as they're called, what happens to a hell of
Speaker 1: a lot of people is that you come to the Farley,
Speaker 1: you're like fresh mate for like a month, you shoot
Speaker 1: and shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot, and then
Speaker 1: you're just unemployed and you never get work again, and
Speaker 1: the pay that you get for that is way and less,
Speaker 1: way less um and it's kind of like you have
Speaker 1: what you're being asked to. Unfortunately you're like tarnished because
Speaker 1: you know, until this stigma goes away, like that's a
Speaker 1: really big problem on your resume for a lot of people.
Speaker 1: And it's such a short amount of time that you're
Speaker 1: living that kind of you know, presumably quite fun theatrical
Speaker 1: life as long as it's the good point, the kind
Speaker 1: of port like Mike Quasar shoots, where everyone's respectful of
Speaker 1: each other and it's like a good working environment. I'm
Speaker 1: sure there's like other porn sets that aren't like that. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's so that that was one consequence that Fabian
Speaker 1: was like, yes, I feel bad about that, but a
Speaker 1: lot of other ones he just wouldn't take beyond that.
Speaker 1: He can feel bad all. I mean, but like you know,
Speaker 1: he's doing not doing anything act part of your fortune
Speaker 1: to start up a porn studio or something. I mean,
Speaker 1: just help put your money back into the damn industry. Dude,
Speaker 1: you have so much of it. I've got to say.
Speaker 1: Fabian also feels like you might. You know, part of
Speaker 1: my scoffs at this, and part of me understands what
Speaker 1: he means. Fabian also feels like stigmatized. Now, it's a
Speaker 1: lot easier to be stigmatized when you have like yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know so, so he sort of doesn't feel
Speaker 1: like an exploit it because he says, well, look, I
Speaker 1: I too. I'm gonna have the word porn follow me
Speaker 1: around for the rest of my life. But it's but
Speaker 1: it's you've got a sick paycheck face. Well that's what Mike.
Speaker 1: We put in the final episode of the series, we
Speaker 1: put Mike, who hates Fabian, together with being to talk
Speaker 1: it out. Yeah, and that's what That's what Mike said
Speaker 1: to Fabian, like, you know, if I had your money,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I can handle a bit of stigma. And
Speaker 1: Fabian's response was, well, yeah, except having my money causes
Speaker 1: other problems and Mike was like what, and Fabian said, well,
Speaker 1: you know, massive amount of like tax investigations and so on,
Speaker 1: Like he says he wouldn't never have them. He would
Speaker 1: never have been done for tax evasion if if he
Speaker 1: wasn't rich from porn. Money isn't everything anywhere? I mean,
Speaker 1: I can I can only imagine if you're that rich,
Speaker 1: Like how many people are on your cock all the time,
Speaker 1: just asking you, not all your family and your friends,
Speaker 1: maybe like people in the in the industry are on
Speaker 1: you when you have a good bar show, Like if
Speaker 1: I found in my own aquarium, it would be none stop.
Speaker 1: He said this. This guy who saways aquarium said it
Speaker 1: was like a great barrier re, which is, hey, doesn't
Speaker 1: my series sound good? Yeah, it's it's fascinating talking it
Speaker 1: out here in the way that like I haven't really
Speaker 1: done it. I'm we're gonna listen. I'm actually even going
Speaker 1: to listen. And it's very hard to get me to
Speaker 1: listen to anything in my ears? Is that because it's
Speaker 1: like a bustman's holiday, because you make podcasts. I don't
Speaker 1: I have no idea what we were talking about, but
Speaker 1: I used context clues and now I'm back on board.
Speaker 1: Um so yeah, yeah, no, I can't listen. I listened
Speaker 1: to like maybe one podcast like a month if that right. So,
Speaker 1: but this is I'm going to really this is my
Speaker 1: first time having someone talked to me in a series
Speaker 1: listen to how do we get it? Where do we
Speaker 1: go to get it? Well? Thank you for asking? Can
Speaker 1: I before give you the answer? Just say a basuma.
Speaker 1: Bustman's holiday comes from the idea that, like people who
Speaker 1: drive buses for a living, then if they go on
Speaker 1: holiday on a bus not holiday, it's just terrific. There's
Speaker 1: just a day at work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I also
Speaker 1: like that we're calling it a bus man. Yeah, I drive.
Speaker 1: I got to say, man, we never colde best drive
Speaker 1: as best man. I don't know why the phrase person.
Speaker 1: I like that. I like this phrase and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: continue to use it. Like it. Uh, how do you
Speaker 1: get to hear the series? I'll tell you. There's a
Speaker 1: number of ways, so it's perfect. Like a vacuum cleaner salesman,
Speaker 1: I was thinking a knife salesman that takes out a
Speaker 1: shoe and cuts it in hair. Well, you know what
Speaker 1: the upside The upside of doing stuff for audible is
Speaker 1: there's many upsides. One is that they put me together
Speaker 1: with Lena, who John has a knife to throat right now.
Speaker 1: There's a guy from Honorable Suit right now and he's
Speaker 1: about to stab johnalists he's continued, and they about to
Speaker 1: head to the downside. The upside is that they have
Speaker 1: like incredible resources, Like I was back and forward to
Speaker 1: the valley for like a year and that no one complained,
Speaker 1: And who's going to like for the podcast. Who's going
Speaker 1: to do that, right? No one? So that's and they
Speaker 1: put together with Lena, who turned out to just the
Speaker 1: best producer you know, I've worked with. And so there's
Speaker 1: many the only complicated things that it does take a
Speaker 1: little bit of explaining as to how you get to
Speaker 1: hear the thing. So let me explain. So if you
Speaker 1: are an Audible subscriber, you can just get it for free.
Speaker 1: Just just go to Audible type in Butterfly Effect John Renson,
Speaker 1: and it's right there for free. If you're not allordiable
Speaker 1: to subscribe, but you can, you can still get it
Speaker 1: for free. All you have to do is download the
Speaker 1: Audible app. And on the Audible app is this thing
Speaker 1: called channels, which is where all the original content is I,
Speaker 1: by the way, listen to Channels a lot inaudible, because yeah,
Speaker 1: because one thing that Channels gives you is like like
Speaker 1: the best articles in the New York Times, somebody will
Speaker 1: read it out to you while you're at the gym,
Speaker 1: which is that it's yeah, yeah, yeah. Channels has a lot,
Speaker 1: has like a lot of nice cool things and explore this.
Speaker 1: So that's two of the three ways. And all of
Speaker 1: that's from July. And then if for some crazy reason,
Speaker 1: you just don't want to do any of the incredibly
Speaker 1: easy things that I just told you about, then we
Speaker 1: won't change you, but we'll just think bad thoughts of
Speaker 1: how ways you are. Come the beginning of November, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be out on Apple podcasts or iTunes like for
Speaker 1: everybody for free. But it's for everybody for free anyway.
Speaker 1: I think free was the key word. The way to
Speaker 1: hear you don't have to pay to this was subscribe
Speaker 1: to audible. Um, I will answer this question. Okay, So
Speaker 1: the man with the knife just gave Johnna crunch sharp
Speaker 1: piece of paper. Leader spent a year on phone sets. Um. Basically,
Speaker 1: Lena has said that if you go to audible dot
Speaker 1: com slash butterfly effect. That's that will give you like
Speaker 1: the instructions, and then yeah, I believe nobody has to
Speaker 1: pay for like for any reason whatsoever. I think there's
Speaker 1: a there's a tiny little window where if you're not
Speaker 1: an audible subscriber in a few months time, you might
Speaker 1: have to pay. So get on board now. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: you know, basically everyone can listen to it easily for nothing.
Speaker 1: And how long is each episode? So the whole seven
Speaker 1: episodes that eased about half an hour each. Oh, that's
Speaker 1: I would have made it, you know. So I think
Speaker 1: the whole thing is about three and a half hours.
Speaker 1: I would have made it longer. But I I a bore.
Speaker 1: I bore um flim flam. Yes, I hate. I knew
Speaker 1: what you I know what you mean. You know. I
Speaker 1: impressed with myself, but I hate I hate bullshit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I hate interviews going on a little bit too long,
Speaker 1: A dressed me insane. I can never be you know,
Speaker 1: I can never do what you guys do. I just
Speaker 1: I couldn't do it like I can barely. As long
Speaker 1: as you're curious about the person the whole time, it's great.
Speaker 1: I feel like we've been talking for ten minutes. And
Speaker 1: there's just a lot, a lot of food you can
Speaker 1: think about while someone else is talking. As long as you,
Speaker 1: you know, just to keep a constant eye contact. No
Speaker 1: one'll ever know. But I find like being on your show,
Speaker 1: or being on Joe Rogan or being on my own,
Speaker 1: I really enjoy being a guest but the top of
Speaker 1: the time, But being the host of it, I couldn't
Speaker 1: do it, like because for me, like if I listened
Speaker 1: to like an hour's interview like that we've just done,
Speaker 1: I'm looking for like four great minutes. Um. That's that's
Speaker 1: the way my sort of brain goes. Um. So that's
Speaker 1: why I need so So that's why the series even
Speaker 1: though it looks like a year and a half, it's
Speaker 1: only three and a half hours long. Wow, But it's
Speaker 1: a compilation of the best of a year and a half.
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm not in any way disparaging your
Speaker 1: your way of doing podcasts. I wish I could do it.
Speaker 1: I just can't do it. I can't. Well, you have
Speaker 1: a curiosity about things that leads you places for a
Speaker 1: long period of time. Your your interest in this Fabian
Speaker 1: after you were reading all the blogs, led you to
Speaker 1: do this for a year and a half. I mean
Speaker 1: that to me, I couldn't do. But that's fascinating. That's
Speaker 1: a different type of what we do. Well, what you do,
Speaker 1: and you know what Markman does so brilliantly, you know you,
Speaker 1: Markman and Joe Rogan I think are probably the three
Speaker 1: best that I know. That's another audio clip we're gonna cut.
Speaker 1: And what you do is like you somehow, in the
Speaker 1: course of like this hour long or hour and a
Speaker 1: half long kind of encounter, you really cleverly sort of
Speaker 1: structure it so it's like it's like a sort of
Speaker 1: moment happens, and the moment is across the entire the
Speaker 1: entire encounter. Oh wow, I don't heard anybody put it
Speaker 1: that way. I think too. It's just a natural conversation
Speaker 1: of us being curious about what we're talking about. It
Speaker 1: our our guidelines for interviewing people are if you have
Speaker 1: a scenario or experience or an expertise or something that
Speaker 1: we're like, wait, what done? We could talk to you
Speaker 1: for probably five hours, but we do it for an
Speaker 1: hour and a half of the people don't, you know,
Speaker 1: get board? But yeah, that's that curiosity. Being curious is
Speaker 1: uh good quality is a fun quality I have. But
Speaker 1: you know, you do things. This is probably getting a
Speaker 1: bit Bustman's holiday do it, But I think like you're
Speaker 1: really good. You do something that I'm bad at, which
Speaker 1: is that, you know, you keep the conversation going by
Speaker 1: kind of interjecting. Quite often. I've got this annoying habit
Speaker 1: of like in a situation like this when I'm doing
Speaker 1: the interviewing, of just listening for ages and letting the
Speaker 1: person talk for too long, and then it's like you
Speaker 1: can't it's just unlistenable to right, so you'll you know,
Speaker 1: so it's it seems like you're just having a conversation,
Speaker 1: but you're not. You're you're working, you're you know, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of it's not calculated though, which I which
Speaker 1: is the best part about it. It's just just like
Speaker 1: it's just naturally flowing um, which I like. But I
Speaker 1: was thinking, you know what, I was thinking, this is
Speaker 1: like a random interjection the way technology is ruining porn.
Speaker 1: Technology is doing that for a lot of like everyone
Speaker 1: has a podcast now because it's so easy, there's so many,
Speaker 1: the number of podcasts that exist, or I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are exact figures on this but have
Speaker 1: quadrupled since the past three years, two years even and
Speaker 1: then and then also Stephen who's uh, who's a director
Speaker 1: and he makes film content for people and companies. He's
Speaker 1: like and now, because cameras can be made so cheaply
Speaker 1: and have such a great quality of picture, any Joe
Speaker 1: Schmo can do it for cheaper, somebody's always under so
Speaker 1: that undercutting is also a direct effect of technology taking
Speaker 1: over an industry. Yeah, oh so much. It's it's happening
Speaker 1: in music, is happening in radio, it's happening in porn,
Speaker 1: it's happening in journalism. And sometimes it's for good, Like
Speaker 1: you know, you want to empower people, of course, um,
Speaker 1: but everyone I do sometimes think, like, you know, the
Speaker 1: great thing about social media is that it gave a
Speaker 1: voice to voiceless people. But that doesn't necessarily mean that
Speaker 1: people should use their voices all the I thought about
Speaker 1: this a lot. I feel mean, but I'm like, maybe
Speaker 1: not everyone should have a black or just not use
Speaker 1: it all the time, like the turney, the turney of
Speaker 1: needing to hav an opinion about everything, like sometimes just
Speaker 1: you know, you don't need to say, don't need and
Speaker 1: also we don't need to know about your life. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've seen like Facebook updates, like I got new contact lens.
Speaker 1: It is like, can I tell you how much I
Speaker 1: don't care about that, Like that's that's like that's pollution
Speaker 1: on my Facebook. Yes, yeah, And it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: going back to public shaming like my last book, Like
Speaker 1: you know, one of the problems of like a sort
Speaker 1: of pyle on is that everyone feels like they have
Speaker 1: to get involved, like you can you can think that
Speaker 1: somebody did a really fun, stupid thing without having to
Speaker 1: tell that. Let's be one of the hundred thousand people
Speaker 1: to tell that pist And now that's so rare that
Speaker 1: it's like to have an opinion and go, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to post it. I'm just gonna give that to myself.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, that's kind of nice, and I wish
Speaker 1: more people would. I mean, because I feel like it's
Speaker 1: exactly what you said, Grant, it's pollution. It feels like pollution. Yeah, um, alright,
Speaker 1: but anyway, let's cut at this flam flam and uh rabbit.
Speaker 1: Where can we find you besides audible? Oh you mean
Speaker 1: in not doing other things? Anything else on social media life,
Speaker 1: anything else, wanted Twitter real quick. Well, oh well on Twitter,
Speaker 1: I'm at John Ronson with no h j Owen R. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I guess my two new things since I saw
Speaker 1: you last The Butterfly effecta which is on Netflix, which
Speaker 1: men have to watch. It's one of those beautiful films
Speaker 1: I've ever seen. Thank you. I have many interesting projects
Speaker 1: just out of reach, just that you can't talk about
Speaker 1: him yet. Yeah, none of them have been Convercid so busy.
Speaker 1: He's always doing such a cool ship. But right now
Speaker 1: I'm in a slightly frustrating position, which is that there's
Speaker 1: like a whole bunch of things that I really want
Speaker 1: to do, but they're all like like somebody needs to
Speaker 1: give me permission to do them, like and I'm just
Speaker 1: that you're right outside the bubble bubble of like five
Speaker 1: like projects, and I'm thinking that logically, like one or
Speaker 1: two them have to come off. And how do you
Speaker 1: decide the topics? Just your curiosity? Yes, sometimes it's me,
Speaker 1: sometimes it's it's other people. Um So for instance, as
Speaker 1: a couple of the way to go, like I have
Speaker 1: found like I've been involved in like two movies, well
Speaker 1: three movies. If you current the Minister at Goats, which
Speaker 1: I like the Book of Um but I was involved
Speaker 1: in like Frank and oct I kind of co wrote
Speaker 1: both of those films. And what I found about movie
Speaker 1: Hope is this boy and this No I'm fascinating because
Speaker 1: you dive into so many different parts of humanity with
Speaker 1: everything you take on, whether it's a movie or a book.
Speaker 1: And that's why I want to know, like what where
Speaker 1: is that? So whether the roots? Well, what I've what
Speaker 1: I've noticed with movies is that like the way movies
Speaker 1: get made and I think TV shows two is to
Speaker 1: sort of jump aboard a moving train. So so the
Speaker 1: moving chain of Octure was the fact that Bomb June Hoe,
Speaker 1: who's like a beloved director and it's like in career
Speaker 1: he's like the most probably one of the two most
Speaker 1: popular directors in career, sort of asked me to get
Speaker 1: involved and so I kind of left on board that train. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I suppose. You know, once in a while, you can
Speaker 1: write script on spect Like if I if I've got
Speaker 1: an idea for a book, I'll just write the book
Speaker 1: and then it will come out, and that's easy. But
Speaker 1: if you've got an idea for a movie and you
Speaker 1: write the script, it almost definitely won't get made. You
Speaker 1: need to You need to get involved in a project
Speaker 1: where where there's some reason, you know what, like film
Speaker 1: people they don't want to make sucking films, you know,
Speaker 1: like there's so many that I'm slightly exaggerating, but basically
Speaker 1: like if you say to a film finance here, you know,
Speaker 1: can you give me ten million dollars? They're going to go, No,
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? Films don't make money, most
Speaker 1: of them, And it's a lot of money to make
Speaker 1: a film ten minutes is cheaper an independent film exactly. So,
Speaker 1: so the way to get a film made is to
Speaker 1: get involved with something way a big movie still wants
Speaker 1: to do it, or a big director yeah or already
Speaker 1: or kind of really kind of popular producer. And that's
Speaker 1: why all these things are just slightly out of reach
Speaker 1: because there's that things I want to do, but for
Speaker 1: them to be viable, like like I have to get
Speaker 1: like a really great director or a really great producer
Speaker 1: or stuff. But aren't you famous? I'm so I was
Speaker 1: going to say, you're a famous person and a well,
Speaker 1: like you're you're a famous intellectual you and are openly
Speaker 1: I think if you ever want to do anything with us. Yes, well,
Speaker 1: I think in movies all of that doesn't count for
Speaker 1: that much. That industry is a whole another. Yeah, game,
Speaker 1: it counts for stuff in like in books and podcasts
Speaker 1: and stuff. Better think it counts so much in movies.
Speaker 1: You need like you need to like hook up with
Speaker 1: the director that people love or producer that people love. Okay,
Speaker 1: That's why I'm in the position that I'm in now.
Speaker 1: I'm just waiting for that extra thing to make a
Speaker 1: to make a project like like do a pop er happen? Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're the cheeringtup that will actually be green light exactly Cool. Well,
Speaker 1: you want to end on a port I'm just really quick,
Speaker 1: really quick. What's the weirdest thing you saw on a
Speaker 1: porn site throughout your times on the porn site for
Speaker 1: the funniest or porn set or point I'm sorry, porn
Speaker 1: porn set point injuries. Oh yeah, I was on the
Speaker 1: set of Amish Girls on rum Spring a volume two.
Speaker 1: The director I love it. The director Ike said, uh
Speaker 1: that he's surprised that he was commissioned to make a
Speaker 1: volume two, but maybe volume one left too many unounswered questions. Sure,
Speaker 1: I've gotten kind of to Amish porn and Mormon porn.
Speaker 1: That's pretty good. Well I didn't even know. It's pretty good.
Speaker 1: I discovered Mormon girls and Mormon and Amish. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know, very different to people who are, but kind
Speaker 1: of like the same to look at. Okay, you say Amish,
Speaker 1: and I say, that's that's why. That's why I too, Amish.
Speaker 1: People say Amish the same. They probably say, Mesh, Yeah,
Speaker 1: well you got an accent, you gotta past. So is
Speaker 1: that so you saw something on answer? Well, not just
Speaker 1: about that that set existed. I'll tell you, Okay, I'll
Speaker 1: tell you a moment I'm gonna end on like a
Speaker 1: sad moment perfect life. We've spoken much to this interview
Speaker 1: about stepdaughter cheerleader orgy, which turned out to be a
Speaker 1: quite a pivotal moment in my life. That day, at
Speaker 1: one point, Mike wanted to shoot a establishing scene of
Speaker 1: the of the cheerleaders rising of having home from cheerleader practice.
Speaker 1: So we were outside and this is like in a
Speaker 1: big mansion in the valley that's secluded mansion. But somehow
Speaker 1: some kids from a from a nearby house how cattland
Speaker 1: on to what was going on. So they were like
Speaker 1: I couldn't we couldn't see them, that we could hear them.
Speaker 1: They were like cat calling and mocking from the top
Speaker 1: and nearby hill and all the cheerleaders. Unsurprisingly, I just
Speaker 1: found this kind of sad but also very resonant. Um
Speaker 1: suddenly felt was like even the Garden of Eden. They
Speaker 1: all suddenly felt very self conscious. And you know, they
Speaker 1: were wearing these light kind of cheerleader outfits that were
Speaker 1: much too small that Mike had probably brought from a
Speaker 1: costume shop or something, and they all try to sort of,
Speaker 1: you know, put down their their skirts to sort of
Speaker 1: you know, everybody felt weird and self conscious because the
Speaker 1: shifted the vibe. Yeah, and you know why, because of
Speaker 1: fucking outsiders. And this reminded me of what a gay
Speaker 1: porn stuff called Connor beeB said to me when I
Speaker 1: started on my project. He said, every bad thing and
Speaker 1: you know, and and he's probably exaggerating a bit, but
Speaker 1: he said, every bad thing that happens to porn people
Speaker 1: happens because of outsiders looking in, not because of what
Speaker 1: happens in the industry itself. So that was an example
Speaker 1: of that, and we'll leave it at that. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much. John ronson for joining us. This has been
Speaker 1: Guys We Fucked, the Anti slot Chimning podcast. We'll talk
Speaker 1: to you next Friday, So under five when we stand
Speaker 1: up the acor so to move to the side. Pick
Speaker 1: ups you well, now to be free, treat in to
Speaker 1: free man. It's thank you. Ust you keep on playing,
Speaker 1: taking and not just to keep you coming. Come on
Speaker 1: a slow Oh now guess you're fr game. I know
Speaker 1: to find you. Blame you, Twisty Cander, fight you well.
Speaker 1: Thank you everybody for listening to this episode of Guys
Speaker 1: We Buck. Did you know that you can listen to
Speaker 1: Guys Who Sucked on Spotify? Yes, the streaming service you
Speaker 1: know and love for music is also fully loaded with podcasts.
Speaker 1: Find us in the podcast section within the browse tab
Speaker 1: when you're using Spotify on mobile, or just by searching
Speaker 1: Guys we Fucked. While you're there, click to follow us
Speaker 1: and to have our new episodes delivered right into your
Speaker 1: Spotify library. Had to Spotify dot com slash podcast for
Speaker 1: more