Speaker 1: Welcome to Guys We Fucked. Guys We Guys Book. I'm Christina,
Speaker 1: I'm Corren. We're sorry about last night, the anti slut
Speaker 1: shaming podcast. I never stopped. Hello everyone, Welcome to another
Speaker 1: episode of Guys We Fuck. It's the anti slut shaming
Speaker 1: podcast some Corren. I'm Christina, and thank you so much
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Speaker 1: And then we opened it and there's like there was
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Speaker 1: I don't even like jewelry very much, and I've worn
Speaker 1: all the jewelry because it's just like nice for every day,
Speaker 1: but it makes a statement. Um, and it's just fun
Speaker 1: to like get something in the mail. Oh my god. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be in Philadelphia Friday, September fifteenth, the headlining
Speaker 1: the Philly Comedy Club UH Toronto, Canada, September twenty one
Speaker 1: and two. We're at the Just for Last Comedy Festival
Speaker 1: in Toronto twenty one. Is a live recording of the
Speaker 1: podcast Sell that Outcome. It's not sold out, guys, I
Speaker 1: mean it's not. Oh yeah, because I still I was
Speaker 1: exactly so much what we need to do it um
Speaker 1: Saturday September Glama plus seven thirty pm at Zinc Party
Speaker 1: to us third Crede Coast by myself Wendy Starling. Oh
Speaker 1: and we're gonna go out of order. But I on Friday,
Speaker 1: September PM. It's my birthday. I can't even believe it's
Speaker 1: here again. Addition of Nacho Bitches at New York Comedy
Speaker 1: Club Code Nacho for ten dollar tickets, co hosted by
Speaker 1: myself and Blair doing a very special lineup. I can't
Speaker 1: even believe I'm I'm able to do this, but all
Speaker 1: the comics I booked are from my hometown of Union,
Speaker 1: New Jersey. That's so cool. It's really cool that we
Speaker 1: were able to do that, UM and I'm excited for that.
Speaker 1: And then Boston on Sunday September at seven thirty pm,
Speaker 1: I am headlining Laugh Boston with very special guests James
Speaker 1: Myers and Christina Hutchinson. Tickets for that one are flying
Speaker 1: like crazy, so use code Alfred if you want to
Speaker 1: get fifteen dollar tickets that will sell out. And then
Speaker 1: the next day in Boston Monday septe be headlining Cityside Boston. UM.
Speaker 1: Admission is free to make a reservation because those that
Speaker 1: venue fills up every week. And then New York City
Speaker 1: on Thursday, November nine, we are doing our biggest New
Speaker 1: York City show to date as part of the New
Speaker 1: York Commune Festival we are so excited. It's a almost
Speaker 1: thousand seat theater in Tribeca called the Tribeca Performing Arts Center.
Speaker 1: Is it in? I hope yes it is, because sometimes
Speaker 1: something in Tribeca and then it's like and you're like,
Speaker 1: fuck you, Um, but this is gonna be the best
Speaker 1: time in your life. This is a big deal. We
Speaker 1: even invited people we know in real life, which when
Speaker 1: you when you when you start doing comedy, like basically
Speaker 1: two years can you come to my show? You stopped
Speaker 1: in writing friends, um, but real life people to this.
Speaker 1: Please buy a ticket, A S A P. Friend will
Speaker 1: be there. My dad's coming, Like, this is a big deal.
Speaker 1: This is a big deal guys. Um, and that's it.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. With school starting up again, as schedule
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Speaker 1: He gets it every week. And then one time when
Speaker 1: I switched banks and I didn't put the new debit
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Speaker 1: this is his He loves Blue Apron and he loves
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Speaker 1: posting on Facebook, you're screwed. Don't get distracted. Okay, last
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Speaker 1: the ones that you did, and you're like, how how
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Speaker 1: move by putting the back the mattress back in the box,
Speaker 1: even though they used like a would have thought that
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Speaker 1: and conditions apply. One thing I ever had to talk
Speaker 1: about last intro, Oh boy, is this about farts? You're
Speaker 1: laughing like it's about far No, I wish no. Remember
Speaker 1: when we watched the eclipse a K. I think it
Speaker 1: got talk a little bit for thirty seconds me and
Speaker 1: we're right, fucking We took our Cashi guy the f
Speaker 1: zero boxes and we follow the YouTube video and we
Speaker 1: cut holes of them and then my fucking hole, my
Speaker 1: whole like doubled from transporting to the studio. We recorded
Speaker 1: our audiobook which is available for pre order, and it's
Speaker 1: very good. Um and and it just it made me.
Speaker 1: It makes me giggle every time thinking back to everyone
Speaker 1: in that park. Like I I almost wanted to postpone
Speaker 1: the last day of the audiobook record or it was
Speaker 1: like five pages we had to read, but you know,
Speaker 1: figure out another date for it and to go to
Speaker 1: the path of totality because I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: it's gonna turn fucking dark in the day. That's insane,
Speaker 1: I know. And I debated, and then I watched all
Speaker 1: these YouTube videos. This guy was on an Alaska Error
Speaker 1: Lines flight and he's like, oh my god, it was
Speaker 1: like he was coming, but like, I get it because
Speaker 1: what he was showing, what the camera show one was
Speaker 1: fucking core. It was. I mean, if I didn't know
Speaker 1: what was going on, I would have thought, oh, it
Speaker 1: was the end of the world. But it was so cool.
Speaker 1: And then fucking we were sitting around and so who
Speaker 1: A lot of people said the animals were going to
Speaker 1: be acting all weird, and I was just staring at
Speaker 1: Geese for like two hours, being like, the GeSe looks weird,
Speaker 1: right or no? Is that a way he always does?
Speaker 1: But it looks like a statue, right? Maybe not? And
Speaker 1: I just thought it was funny because last night I
Speaker 1: thought of when those like middle schoolers came with a
Speaker 1: teacher and they all had their fucking they had like
Speaker 1: fancy versions of our ship, Cereal Box, and they were
Speaker 1: like and this one kid was looking in the box
Speaker 1: and he was like wow, but like it wasn't that cool? No,
Speaker 1: I mean, And also I saw a video of it
Speaker 1: later and I'm like, what the fun And I didn't
Speaker 1: I didn't even realize the sliver I'm washing and this
Speaker 1: guy's yam backwards. Cereal Box is the fucking move. Oh
Speaker 1: you didn't know if that just looks like because it
Speaker 1: just looks like a bunch of spots of light. I
Speaker 1: was like, I could have shown it. I could have
Speaker 1: shined a flashlight in a box at home. It was
Speaker 1: the stance I climactic, the fuck results of what I expected.
Speaker 1: Like it was the biggest difference of ratio between how
Speaker 1: climactic I expected it to be and how just not
Speaker 1: thrilling it was at all. Yeah, I have no everyday
Speaker 1: I have no everyday logic. So like I was, I like,
Speaker 1: I guess we should go to this park number one.
Speaker 1: I didn't even realize when I was making this fucking
Speaker 1: cereal box at home, I'm thinking I'm using these like
Speaker 1: glasses and I'm like why am I like, why would
Speaker 1: I make this? To turn around and watch and watch
Speaker 1: a like of a shadow puppet stevens cascy zereo box
Speaker 1: He's I was like, all right, fucking cereal box. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just ridiculous. It's just so funny. And the video
Speaker 1: of you I watched like ted times on my Instagram
Speaker 1: prins reaction to the solar clips, which like I think
Speaker 1: I just got my period. It was just so I
Speaker 1: just to see all these New Yorkers outside and they're like,
Speaker 1: but everyone's going with high power jobs and college degree.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and he was like fancy suits and we're
Speaker 1: all there like an idiot looking into a goddamn cereal box.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was cool to see the sliver in
Speaker 1: the end of my cauchy cereal box through that tinfoil,
Speaker 1: But I also was succumbing to the pressure of that
Speaker 1: I put on it to have a great time and
Speaker 1: see something spectacular. So I feel like that reaction was
Speaker 1: just kind of he needed to get dark. If it
Speaker 1: didn't get dark, it's like, why are even here? That's something.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, that was not real. It was a bit.
Speaker 1: I know. It's the worst part is when comedians trick
Speaker 1: you with bits and you're like, yeah, about their dog. Oh,
Speaker 1: I hate what kimedians traded me about their dog. I
Speaker 1: was very concerned for Alfred, and I was very disappointed
Speaker 1: and how he was rehaving real talk. He did have
Speaker 1: very vicious diarrhea all over my apartment. No, in your apartments,
Speaker 1: on your couch. I put the brand new branch and
Speaker 1: bowl bowling branch branch sounds like anymore, and climbing trees.
Speaker 1: So no, they fucking they are really great promo. And
Speaker 1: then I was like, he wiped he had diarrhea and
Speaker 1: then wiped out. Don't I got it. It's called an
Speaker 1: expensive ass dog et toilet, paper, bull and branch a
Speaker 1: better way to wipe your dog back? Like, wait, he
Speaker 1: wipes his own. Ask that's pretty progressive because you know,
Speaker 1: dogs drag their butts across things. Like yeah, there's this
Speaker 1: commercial of this fucking every time it comes all my
Speaker 1: dad dies laughing, where this woman is just sitting on
Speaker 1: a couch entertaining a friend and she looks over at
Speaker 1: her Golden Retriever and she's like Toby, and the dog
Speaker 1: just looks like it's it's it's like doing something so
Speaker 1: horrible and foul, and it's just rubbing its ass across
Speaker 1: the carpet. It's so far. I don't mind he does
Speaker 1: it like normally because he doesn't have diarrhea on his
Speaker 1: but he just does it because like you know, he's
Speaker 1: and he's like he has he's sensitive because he's a puppy,
Speaker 1: so he has some allergies and like the anal glands. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my brother's dog. Yeah, but this time he actually just
Speaker 1: wiped his butt on my I have one to our
Speaker 1: white sheets. Oh no, he's I think I don't maybe
Speaker 1: like once he's farted. Steven's parents dog Buster barts so bad,
Speaker 1: but it's always like a and then it's just armageddon
Speaker 1: in the whole house and you're like, oh my god.
Speaker 1: But then you're like, am I making the dog feel bad? Yeah? No,
Speaker 1: he's young, so he I don't think. I think he's
Speaker 1: not farting too much. Diarrhea is vicious. I'm sorry that
Speaker 1: hap that sucks. Yeah, well, I mean it's it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's like, at least I don't have a kid, all right,
Speaker 1: So you know, I really, I really try not to
Speaker 1: create Facebook drama, but I just cannot help myself. So
Speaker 1: I was um on a comedy fest schedule to be
Speaker 1: in a comedy festival last week, in the last week
Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Comedy Festival. I want to give them a
Speaker 1: shout out because everyone thinks like this has anything to
Speaker 1: do with them, like negatively, and it doesn't. Brooklyn Comedy
Speaker 1: Festival is fabulous when it happens again next year if
Speaker 1: your local or if you want to fly in. Tremendous shows,
Speaker 1: great lineups, reasonable prices. Julian and Chris to run It
Speaker 1: thumbs up really good dudes, and I know we're like
Speaker 1: supposed to Julian, really really great people. And this has
Speaker 1: absolutely nothing to do with the Brooklyn Comedy Festival. They
Speaker 1: handled this like champs and like people who understand comedians.
Speaker 1: So I want to make that very clear off the bat. Now,
Speaker 1: let's trash shocks a bitch, let's talk shit. I'm not
Speaker 1: naming names, but if you know how to use Google,
Speaker 1: you can find out what who I'm talking about. If
Speaker 1: you're like death happy girl, because even Stephen came upstairs
Speaker 1: and was like, it's Karin Okay, I saw her Facebook
Speaker 1: and what just so furious there's we want to talk about.
Speaker 1: There's a war on fucking everything these days. Um, there's
Speaker 1: a war on free speech. And if you do not
Speaker 1: understand that, you don't understand. And I think it's really important,
Speaker 1: especially on this podcast, because number one, podcasting is the
Speaker 1: ultimate free speech, ultimate free speech. There are so many
Speaker 1: creators and comedians who are able to express their opinions,
Speaker 1: opinions that would not be heard on any mainstream programming
Speaker 1: if it were not for podcasting. Uh. And I know
Speaker 1: we've talked about this so many times before, but like
Speaker 1: our podcast at the beginning. If you guys have been
Speaker 1: listening for a long time, and remember was tried to
Speaker 1: They tried to censor it on iTunes. So we're all
Speaker 1: part of this free speech discussion, and that's what today's
Speaker 1: episode relates to every in different ways, but it does
Speaker 1: free speeches. It relates to everybody, and it's part of freedom,
Speaker 1: which is why we all fucking live in America. So
Speaker 1: I was scheduled to do the show. It was the
Speaker 1: day of this show. They had already sold tickets. Promoted me,
Speaker 1: you promoted it, Uh yeah, use my name to to
Speaker 1: get people in there. Everything. And so this was being
Speaker 1: outside produced for the Brooklyn Comedy Festival by like a
Speaker 1: like blog slash magazine actually a magazine that guys has
Speaker 1: been featured in. Yes, and then also a very popular
Speaker 1: like internet feminist kind of beauty site that makes a
Speaker 1: lot of videos. So we've decide who it is. So
Speaker 1: the community festival producer says, okay, the outside producer just
Speaker 1: wants to have a quick word with all the comedians.
Speaker 1: So this woman emails us all it's maybe like less
Speaker 1: than five hours before showtime. She goes, HI, all so
Speaker 1: excited that you're all joining us, tonight. It should be
Speaker 1: a great show. Blah blah blah um. But I just
Speaker 1: wanted to make one note about content. So, oh, that
Speaker 1: is not a discussion that is ever posed to a
Speaker 1: stand up comedian, right, And so I want to say,
Speaker 1: like this lady number one is not a comedian. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm already hated. Damn, she's not even in the comedy industry.
Speaker 1: And she's now telling me on the day of the show,
Speaker 1: after using my name to promote the show, what I
Speaker 1: can and cannot say out of my own mouth and
Speaker 1: for a stand up comedian in my own act, all
Speaker 1: we have is our thoughts and opinions, that is, and
Speaker 1: jokes like that is stand up. That's our words. You
Speaker 1: can't you can't sensor that to take that away. So
Speaker 1: she goes on to say, on our sites, we try
Speaker 1: to avoid talking about women's bodies negatively or like things
Speaker 1: that need to be fixed anything in the quote I'm
Speaker 1: fat and I need to lose weight, vein, I'd appreciate
Speaker 1: if you guys would leave any material like that out
Speaker 1: of your sets. And she said it very casually, like
Speaker 1: it didn't mean anything. Then I lost my ship. The
Speaker 1: thing is in the email chain, did you reply all
Speaker 1: absolutely not. I kept a professional There was a lot
Speaker 1: of really like fabulous comedians on this lineup that I
Speaker 1: really respected. I was really bummed not to be able
Speaker 1: to do the show because I was I was like,
Speaker 1: I would say, I was like one of the least
Speaker 1: talented and I think I'm very talented. Yeah, I was
Speaker 1: one of the least talented people on this line the
Speaker 1: fucking killer lineup. Um and um uh and so like,
Speaker 1: And I think, to the the the un comedian ear,
Speaker 1: this might not seem like that crazy of a request,
Speaker 1: but like, I know something is bad news if like
Speaker 1: I feel a bodily response to it, and so like,
Speaker 1: I wasn't even angry in my head. My body was angry. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's just wrong. And so I because I didn't know
Speaker 1: this woman, I re fid specifically to the singular male
Speaker 1: comedy producer who I had a pre existing relationship with,
Speaker 1: who I um who who booked me? So the woman
Speaker 1: that had emailed you wasn't a comedy show producer. She
Speaker 1: just worked for the magazine. She worked for the magazine
Speaker 1: website and you know they and they're basically this. The
Speaker 1: issue is companies are now trying to use comedy shows
Speaker 1: as brand extensions, which is our art is not a
Speaker 1: brand extension. It's not a fucking extended commercial for your
Speaker 1: god damn Vagina website. And Stephen had said this to
Speaker 1: me a while ago about deals that you and I had, Karen.
Speaker 1: But everyone I'm noticing this pops up. They people want
Speaker 1: the edge. They don't want the fucking risk, the risk
Speaker 1: meeting of offending people who gives a ship comedy is
Speaker 1: supposed to make you uncomfortable. Sometimes it's okay, well I
Speaker 1: mean and also like, this is my fucking area of
Speaker 1: expertise you want to like and and it's it's just
Speaker 1: offensive on many reasons. So I'm actually gonna read And
Speaker 1: then I posted I did respond to the guy, and
Speaker 1: basically I said almost what I said on Facebook, but
Speaker 1: I'm gonna read the Facebook thing better because I I
Speaker 1: like the way I were to this matter. So I
Speaker 1: was like, I always like put like my schedule for
Speaker 1: comedy on Facebook, and so I go tonight eight pm.
Speaker 1: Just dropped out of a Brooklyn Comedy Festival show because
Speaker 1: after booking me, one of the female non comedy producers
Speaker 1: told me that to stay on brand with the magazine
Speaker 1: and website, who are hosting the event. I couldn't call
Speaker 1: myself fat, I'm not, but I should be able to
Speaker 1: say and think that I am if I'm in a
Speaker 1: fucking fat mood slash say that I wanted to lose weight.
Speaker 1: Slash say anything negative about my own body on stage. Please,
Speaker 1: I will body shame myself until I am Instagram fucking ready?
Speaker 1: Are you going to write me a new seven minutes?
Speaker 1: Didn't think so? And yes, I do co host the
Speaker 1: Comedian Project where we don't allow sex stating a relationship talk.
Speaker 1: But we tell that to comics before we book and
Speaker 1: promote them, so they have the freedom to decide whether
Speaker 1: or not they want to participate. Eight. Also, the Comedian
Speaker 1: Project is for all sexes. The show tonight is just women,
Speaker 1: and the purpose of the Comedian Projects censorship certainly isn't
Speaker 1: to protect people's feelings. Fuck. I am so heated right
Speaker 1: now sharing this because I know how desperate we all
Speaker 1: are for spots for real. I saw travel to Brooklyn
Speaker 1: to perform for four disinterested people at least once a week.
Speaker 1: But comedy is already in danger and I just cannot
Speaker 1: be a part of its death. You know what's more degrading,
Speaker 1: than body shaming, telling a thirty one year old woman
Speaker 1: who has been doing comedy for seven plus years that
Speaker 1: she does not know how to do her job correctly.
Speaker 1: If you are not confident enough to sit through a
Speaker 1: comedy show without taking every joke as a personal fucking attack,
Speaker 1: then you should be at therapy, not at a comedy show. Um.
Speaker 1: The lineup is fucking stacked, and that show is going
Speaker 1: to be amazing because it's full of some of my
Speaker 1: favorite people and some of the best joke slingers I know.
Speaker 1: And all this anger is totally only directed at the
Speaker 1: producer lady. But god damn, this is not feminism. Go
Speaker 1: out and tell a joke about what a fat funk
Speaker 1: you are tonight, no matter if you're a size double
Speaker 1: zero or a size twenty two. Um, and I see.
Speaker 1: And but this woman worked for the Feminist publication And
Speaker 1: it's like, all right, right, come on, And you do
Speaker 1: have jokes that I love the gym. I mean, you
Speaker 1: have so many jokes that do you do comment about
Speaker 1: bodies in general and your body, and they're fucking amazing jokes.
Speaker 1: But that's your But those are your words. It's your body,
Speaker 1: it's your words, it's your set, it's your jokes. And also,
Speaker 1: I mean the beauty of comedy and the catharsist comes
Speaker 1: from being able to talk about things that we think
Speaker 1: about a lot and that bother us a lot. So
Speaker 1: it being in this industry especially and just being a
Speaker 1: fucking woman on the planet with a body, we are
Speaker 1: naturally going to talk about bodies a lot. And uh,
Speaker 1: it's something that everyone it's like it's and it's also
Speaker 1: makes me so angry because it's like, how much of
Speaker 1: my time is spent listening or almost hiding comments about
Speaker 1: my body and what other people are saying about my body,
Speaker 1: but you can't say in my set? Are you out
Speaker 1: of your goddamn mine? So I got heated and the
Speaker 1: real the real thing was like, it's like, if you're
Speaker 1: hiring a professional comedian to do a job for like
Speaker 1: fifty dollars. Also side note, for this gig, you have
Speaker 1: you have to have faith that they can talk about anything.
Speaker 1: And I even wrote back to this lady, I said
Speaker 1: that could includes rape, that includes pedophilia. I'm like, if
Speaker 1: you don't want to, you either want a comedy show
Speaker 1: or you don't want to fucking comedy show. It's like
Speaker 1: I'm not. Yeah, I know she's not a comedy booker,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't matter. Like, if you're booking comedians, you should.
Speaker 1: You can see their clips on YouTube, you're listening to
Speaker 1: the podcast, whatever the funk you want to do to
Speaker 1: get a sense of their tone. But then it's like
Speaker 1: a lot of people book you and I on shows
Speaker 1: to draw because we draw because the people listen to
Speaker 1: podcasts are fucking awesome and they come out to shows
Speaker 1: and they're wonderful, and they're great crowd, they're great audience members.
Speaker 1: I'm actually really proud of everyone listens to this podcast
Speaker 1: and comes out to our shows. Or there's only like
Speaker 1: one or two off the top of my head shows
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, funk this. But then otherwise it's
Speaker 1: the comedy community loves our audience. Like it's to that
Speaker 1: point like when people do glamorous and stuffy're like, damn,
Speaker 1: your crowd is good, and they are, but it's like,
Speaker 1: you can't you just have it's the faith, it's the trust,
Speaker 1: and it's the don't fucking that's so insulting? Sure, And
Speaker 1: then I mean so and this goes on, and it
Speaker 1: was and I was really and I and I this
Speaker 1: is a lesson I have learned from working on this
Speaker 1: podcast and trying to engage people in constructive conversations. I mean,
Speaker 1: because what I wanted to do is reply out along
Speaker 1: all you're a dumb count. But I didn't do that. Yes,
Speaker 1: because sometimes I want to say that too, and I'm like, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: and so and so I and so I talked to
Speaker 1: the comedy producer separately, and then obviously it got back
Speaker 1: to this, uh you know blog whatever. Producer. She's more
Speaker 1: than that, but I just am mad um and so
Speaker 1: she was like, just spoke to Blah blah blah from
Speaker 1: the Brookn Comedy Festival and he let me know, uh,
Speaker 1: you think tonight's show might not be a fit for you.
Speaker 1: Because I wasn't even trying to be a sin, I
Speaker 1: just replied and said, I'm I gotta, I gotta remove
Speaker 1: myself from this lineup. That's all I said. I said,
Speaker 1: I said, I hear, because you didn't even want to.
Speaker 1: I said, this is not the show for me, notion
Speaker 1: of being able to talk about certain things right. And
Speaker 1: I had to leave early. So I was gonna be
Speaker 1: first on the lineup. And I know myself well enough
Speaker 1: that if I let myself do that show. I was
Speaker 1: gonna end up doing the materiane and ruining the show
Speaker 1: for everybody else. So I was like, I'm going to
Speaker 1: remove myself from this situation because in five hours, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to change entire magazine and websites uh thoughts
Speaker 1: on body image. But I think I can make a
Speaker 1: statement that's loud enough if I just as someone who's
Speaker 1: one of the biggest draws on the line up, remove
Speaker 1: myself from the line up. Yes, yes, yes, and and
Speaker 1: so she's like the body stuff She's like, we happy
Speaker 1: to talk this through, as we would love to still
Speaker 1: have you participate. The body stuff stuff walks a really
Speaker 1: tricky line for our audience. For example, in a recent show,
Speaker 1: we had a comedian talk about how she had to
Speaker 1: go on a diet because the industry UH and guy
Speaker 1: she was dating expected that of her. Recognizing that women
Speaker 1: are subject to these huge pressures about their bodies and
Speaker 1: what they look like. That was totally cool. We just
Speaker 1: don't I'm doing a bit you boys. Sorry, that was
Speaker 1: totally cool. We just don't want to perpetuate the quote
Speaker 1: skinny is a better idea ourselves. Oh my god, does
Speaker 1: that make sense? And then you're not. If you hire
Speaker 1: comedians do a thing, it doesn't mean that you think
Speaker 1: what the comedians think. Well, it just doesn't mean Damn.
Speaker 1: It's just either either either it's free speech or it's
Speaker 1: not free speech. There's no fucking middle ground. It's not like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is what our audience wants to hear you talk about. Well,
Speaker 1: then I'm not the comedian for you. Uh, you should
Speaker 1: do your research on what I talk about. Then she
Speaker 1: fucking links to an article. Would so much more pissed.
Speaker 1: And it's an article from the magazine that she works for,
Speaker 1: which is never a good way to back up a point. Um,
Speaker 1: everyone who works with me and agrees with me also
Speaker 1: backs up my opinion. Even someone and opened a page
Speaker 1: in our books and had them read it like see,
Speaker 1: and I wrote it down to um, please write my Twitter.
Speaker 1: I discuss it at length. So so, and this is
Speaker 1: not a body, but this is there is a I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: there is like a medically being medically morbidly obese is
Speaker 1: a thing. First it is, but the point my favorite
Speaker 1: show is my six centre pound life, like I know it.
Speaker 1: And uh, and so she sends me and the first
Speaker 1: thing I see is a picture of a woman who
Speaker 1: is medically morbidly obese, and it's just like your new wife,
Speaker 1: your new wife is curveous fuck And I'm just like,
Speaker 1: that's a that is so fucking condescending it and I
Speaker 1: do I would be curious to hear from people who
Speaker 1: are who are more overweight. I don't know what the
Speaker 1: word adjective the non and not me, but like if
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not that, but if I was, I
Speaker 1: would think correct me. If I'm wrong, please email us
Speaker 1: that that's fucking insulting, Like just don't fucking like, you know,
Speaker 1: prance around my lifestyle as and say this girl. So
Speaker 1: it's it's exactly the equivalent of going, wow, you went
Speaker 1: outside with no makeup. That's so brave. Fuck you well.
Speaker 1: And it's also like, I mean, I've heard a lot
Speaker 1: of my friends who are heavier and be like they
Speaker 1: would they just say things to me like fat people
Speaker 1: know they're fat, right, we all have shipped going on,
Speaker 1: We all have things that you know, and maybe you're
Speaker 1: heavy and you want to lose weight. Maybe you're heavy
Speaker 1: you don't want to lose like whatever it is, that's
Speaker 1: her absolute choice. Like, like I talked about a lot
Speaker 1: of times like yeah, like we all have like a
Speaker 1: thing that maybe is not quote healthy. Do whatever the
Speaker 1: funk you want to do, whatever the funk you want
Speaker 1: to do. That's not the and somebody else's like and
Speaker 1: making jokes about it or whatever, like that's just like
Speaker 1: she has to go into there and just start pointing people,
Speaker 1: you're a hor you're a whore, You're a whore, right,
Speaker 1: and and and so and that would be equally aggravated
Speaker 1: about this if I didn't have so much content on this,
Speaker 1: But then it made me even more aggreat And you
Speaker 1: have great content on it, I have. You know, I
Speaker 1: had twelve other minutes I could have done. That's not
Speaker 1: the issue. I could have easily skirted around this and
Speaker 1: had a great set. But I should not have to.
Speaker 1: And and so I go. I said a lot of
Speaker 1: stuff that I said before, and I said, it is
Speaker 1: not the comics job to cater to an audience. I
Speaker 1: am not a jukebox. I do not take requests. Girl.
Speaker 1: I agree, skinny is not always better, but I can
Speaker 1: still want to be skinny. And I think that's this
Speaker 1: thing in this in this body positive society, body shaming
Speaker 1: has gone the other way. I can want to be skinny,
Speaker 1: and you have to respect my wishes to want to
Speaker 1: be skinny. Yes, because that respect your fucking business you
Speaker 1: being whatever you wait you want to be, you can.
Speaker 1: You have to respect the fact that I work really hard.
Speaker 1: I go to the gym a ton, I'm sucking food
Speaker 1: processing ship. I work really really hard on it, and
Speaker 1: it's um and I had just literally come back from
Speaker 1: like a brutal training session at the gym, and I
Speaker 1: was like, fucking kidding me right now. And if that so,
Speaker 1: then I go onto the email. If that threatens an
Speaker 1: audience member or makes her feel bad, that's something she
Speaker 1: needs to work on, not me. It doesn't make me
Speaker 1: bad or a bully or a body shame or an
Speaker 1: anti feminist or a person with an eating disorder. The
Speaker 1: article sent you sent me as fine, but it has
Speaker 1: nothing to do with the email you sent out to
Speaker 1: the comics. That's it was more a piece directed towards
Speaker 1: people speaking to a heavier woman in her everyday life,
Speaker 1: and I agree, no one should be commenting on the
Speaker 1: bodies of others in everyday life, and people with a
Speaker 1: sexual fetish rooted in weight as well as an essay
Speaker 1: on selflow of an acceptance. That was what the article
Speaker 1: was about. It had nothing to do what we're talking.
Speaker 1: It was just literally about heavy women. Any comedian with
Speaker 1: experience knows how to talk about anything in a smart way,
Speaker 1: even the scariest topics, rape, pedophilia, etcetera. It is our
Speaker 1: job to talk about the tough stuff. Once we start
Speaker 1: letting society or consumers tell us how to do our jobs,
Speaker 1: comedy is over. I have been placed on another show
Speaker 1: without constraints, which I was in the fest of all
Speaker 1: where I will be able to do my job properly
Speaker 1: and I know your show will be phenomenal. The lineup
Speaker 1: is great. Things will be better this way again, thank
Speaker 1: you for writing. I respect your opinion, but I do
Speaker 1: not share it. And damn girl. Uh And I know.
Speaker 1: And it's so funny because people have are still asking
Speaker 1: me about this. This was like a week ago, and
Speaker 1: not only comedians, people in the publishing and like media
Speaker 1: industry that I've worked with before have reached out to
Speaker 1: me like it like went through can I get um?
Speaker 1: And then closing after all this drama on Facebook, uh
Speaker 1: a another fellow comic quite love and respect super feminists
Speaker 1: and amazing and talented uh message me privately, and she goes,
Speaker 1: are you talking about blah blah blah? And I go
Speaker 1: I am. She goes, I knew it. She said, I
Speaker 1: had a similar problem with them last year. She goes,
Speaker 1: I hosted a comedy show that was quote again, another
Speaker 1: fucking brand extension for them, and she said, I hate
Speaker 1: the word brand. And she said, apparently there was like
Speaker 1: a quote body positivity panel that happened before the comedy show,
Speaker 1: which is never the correct order to do things. And
Speaker 1: one of the comedians on on the show, who I
Speaker 1: know and is a sweet person and a talented person,
Speaker 1: and I've worked with her before. She used to be
Speaker 1: really overweight and now she is thin, and she was
Speaker 1: talking about it in jokes on stage. She's the perfect person,
Speaker 1: that's her, and he has allowed to that has her
Speaker 1: fucking experience. She wasn't saying like fat people are have
Speaker 1: less value, and the audience tackled her off stage, and
Speaker 1: that comedian left the show crying. So I just want
Speaker 1: to we have to be really careful because yes, no,
Speaker 1: we know we shouldn't talk about fat people or any
Speaker 1: person like they are less value. But in trying to
Speaker 1: stop bullying, a lot of us have become the bullies,
Speaker 1: and uh, it's not okay. And body positivity does not
Speaker 1: mean making people who look better than you feel bad.
Speaker 1: Correct anytime I see lots of hot Instagram people and
Speaker 1: they're allowed to be a size zero and they are
Speaker 1: allowed to be proud of their bodies, and they are
Speaker 1: allowed to go on whatever fucking diet they want to
Speaker 1: go on, They're allowed And I'm allowed to like that
Speaker 1: ship on that this is, this is If it's that's
Speaker 1: a threat to you, you gotta look on the inside. Yep.
Speaker 1: And then so that was mine and you can't. You
Speaker 1: cannot censor a comedian's speech, anybody's. But the fucking porn
Speaker 1: of being a comedy. Could you imagine if someone went
Speaker 1: out to Wendy Starling because she was she was on
Speaker 1: this podcast because she was raped, and she has an
Speaker 1: fucking incredible bit. It's edgy, it's uncomfortable, it's beautiful, it's vulnerable,
Speaker 1: it's hilarious, it's everything. I couldn't if someone, if I
Speaker 1: witnessed anybody going up to be like, can you just
Speaker 1: not do that? But I actually brought Wendy. That's amazing,
Speaker 1: iron she has ship, that's so what what a lot
Speaker 1: of people will say, wow, that's very edgy. It's fucking great,
Speaker 1: it's great material, but it's her experience if anybody could
Speaker 1: you imagine someone was like, can you not de rape?
Speaker 1: But like, I know you're rape, but like, don't do
Speaker 1: the bit about it might trigger someone. I'm going to
Speaker 1: take your experience and I'm gonna put a cage around it. Okay, cool.
Speaker 1: Comedy is certainly healing, and you know what, maybe comedy
Speaker 1: is just like every you know, just everyone's not into acupuncture.
Speaker 1: Maybe comedy is not your specific brand of healing, and
Speaker 1: then don't go to comedy shows. But you can audiences
Speaker 1: cannot start telling comedians what we can and cannot say.
Speaker 1: That is so dangerous. Comedians have are so often the
Speaker 1: people who start things in society. Uh, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of comedians you can think of who have have started
Speaker 1: really important conversations and social movements and have had a
Speaker 1: lot of pull in them. Comedy is a powerful force,
Speaker 1: and it's underestimated and underrated. And a comedy club the room,
Speaker 1: and a comedy club is sacred, and a comedy show
Speaker 1: whom is sacred? I don't have these views because I
Speaker 1: have I'm a comedian. I know this is why I
Speaker 1: am a comedian. Yes, um, and so we feel so
Speaker 1: strongly about this issue that we actually made today's whole
Speaker 1: episode about freedom of speech. And I'm so I was
Speaker 1: looking for this episode for so long. Yes, I want
Speaker 1: to thank Melissa and Zickler, one of my best friend
Speaker 1: in the whole world and the best lawyer in the
Speaker 1: whole world and a superhero. Um. She this woman that
Speaker 1: we are interviewing today on Guys We Fucked, is one
Speaker 1: of her mentors. She is what This was such an
Speaker 1: incredible interview. I was so honored to speak with to her. Uh,
Speaker 1: we could have talked to her for more at for
Speaker 1: like five more hours. She is a professor of law
Speaker 1: at New York Law School. She's the first female president
Speaker 1: of the American Civil Liberties Union. She's currently a member
Speaker 1: of the a C. L USE National Advisory Council. She
Speaker 1: wrote a book called Defending Pornography, Free Speech, Sex, and
Speaker 1: the Fight for Women's Rights. She's working on a book
Speaker 1: right now, but I'm really excited to read out in
Speaker 1: twenty team called hate Why we should resist it with
Speaker 1: free speech, not censorship. Ladies and gentlemen, please give a
Speaker 1: warm welcome to Nadine Strawson. You when you were cursed
Speaker 1: and watched to go from that worse. You could cry
Speaker 1: and you could grieve, but sometimes it's just best to leave.
Speaker 1: So you got gone, you got found Lily Heat. You
Speaker 1: don't coming around right now. You're broke, now, you're tired,
Speaker 1: and it keeps bloating out your fires. But I O
Speaker 1: little life. I'll burn for you through the night every night.
Speaker 1: Now everything we are here with Nadine's Shawson, Professor. You
Speaker 1: were the first female and the youngest president of the
Speaker 1: a c L Unit. Right. Yes, she is a badass.
Speaker 1: You're so cool and you're my best friend. Melissa's idol.
Speaker 1: And see you as a fabulous student. She's amazing and
Speaker 1: she in her career. It's just so amazing to see
Speaker 1: her just crushing it. I don't think she's lost a
Speaker 1: case yet, and she's and she she oh yes, I'm
Speaker 1: very superstitious. And she's the man she manages people. She's
Speaker 1: like kind of people's bosses too. In addition to her case,
Speaker 1: I'm like, man, I'm so proud of you. So so
Speaker 1: she was a standout student and through her I got
Speaker 1: to meet Yes and your lovely Connecticut home Um, so
Speaker 1: we were talking. We're having a discussion about free speech.
Speaker 1: I think this is a really interesting place to start
Speaker 1: because it's very timely about protecting free speech on both sides,
Speaker 1: on every side of every argument. And how people didn't
Speaker 1: you say something about it current on your social media
Speaker 1: and people got pissed off. Well, I mean that's a
Speaker 1: whole different thing. I mean that was there's a lot
Speaker 1: of censorship in a lot of areas right now, I
Speaker 1: mean especially as stand up comedians. Um, and yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess I'll talk about it in the intro for this episode.
Speaker 1: But I was recently hired to do a show for
Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Comedy Festival, and like they had used my
Speaker 1: name to promote it, I was on the lineup, people
Speaker 1: had bought tickets to see me. The day of, I
Speaker 1: get a an email from one of the producers basically
Speaker 1: telling me that there I couldn't talk about my own body,
Speaker 1: in my set um in a negative way. I couldn't
Speaker 1: talk about anything I wanted to fix. And so I, uh,
Speaker 1: first stand pope, and so I I said, well, I am,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but I have to drop off of this
Speaker 1: show because this is really dangerous territory that we're heading
Speaker 1: into and I wrote this whole big thing on Facebook
Speaker 1: as I like to do UM, and it became like
Speaker 1: a huge issue and I didn't mean it to be,
Speaker 1: but I think it's really important and that's why I
Speaker 1: want I didn't want to share it like look at me,
Speaker 1: I'm so great, but I think it's really important. And
Speaker 1: we have a lot of feedback UM on this podcast.
Speaker 1: We have a lot of young listeners, a lot of
Speaker 1: you know, millennials, who I think are really want to
Speaker 1: be involved and do the right thing and say the
Speaker 1: right thing. But I think times they lean towards shutting
Speaker 1: people up when I really don't think that, you know, everybody,
Speaker 1: We all of course support free speech for ideas we
Speaker 1: agree with. That's the easy thing. My friend Nat Hantoff,
Speaker 1: who sadly recently died, although at a ripe mature age,
Speaker 1: UM wrote a book whose title said it all was
Speaker 1: called freedom of speech for me but not for the
Speaker 1: How the left and right relentlessly censor each other. And
Speaker 1: then there was a writer for the Los Angeles Times,
Speaker 1: so I think said it even better. He said their
Speaker 1: urge to censor is by far the most strong human drive.
Speaker 1: It's even stronger than the sex drive a lot, even
Speaker 1: with men. And I think that you know well that
Speaker 1: I can give another quote, but Donna had a line
Speaker 1: that was Martin Luther King Malcolm acts, freedom of speech
Speaker 1: is as good as sex. So that is a good line.
Speaker 1: But you know, because I think there's this natural human
Speaker 1: instinct that if it's a bad idea, it might cause
Speaker 1: bad things to happen. And we don't want to take
Speaker 1: a risk of bad things happening. So let's shut up
Speaker 1: that idea. And what's hard about defending free speech? Which
Speaker 1: I do cheerfully, but you can't do it in a
Speaker 1: sound bite because you have to get people say, for example,
Speaker 1: the a c l U and the organization I was
Speaker 1: proud to head for almost two decades, has always defended
Speaker 1: freedom of speech, even for ideas we deeply disagree with,
Speaker 1: such as anti civil liberties, ideas freedom of speech for
Speaker 1: Nazis and KKK and the all right and communists and
Speaker 1: other totalitarians. Um. But the reason so people will say,
Speaker 1: why is the a c l you defending the Nazis?
Speaker 1: Why are you defending the alt right? And I'll say,
Speaker 1: we are not defending them. We are defending freedom. A
Speaker 1: principle that has to be defended wherever it's attacked, so
Speaker 1: that it will be available for exactly the opposite message
Speaker 1: as well. And if you look at our history, uh,
Speaker 1: those very same principle that allowed the Nazis to march
Speaker 1: in Skokie, this town with a lot of Holocaust survivors
Speaker 1: and other Jews. That's was that very same principle we
Speaker 1: use to allow Martin Luther King to march in Cicero, Illinois,
Speaker 1: a community that was as hostile toward his views as
Speaker 1: the Jews and Skokie were towards the Nazis views. And
Speaker 1: same thing with you know, why do anti abortion protesters
Speaker 1: want to demonstrate outside an abortion clinic so they can
Speaker 1: get the attention, But that means that we can then
Speaker 1: allow somebody who's protesting, you know, would defends department policy
Speaker 1: to get to demonstrate outside the defense department. So it's
Speaker 1: a neutral principle. And if it doesn't exist for speech
Speaker 1: that's controversial in one place, it's not going to exist
Speaker 1: for the exact opposite message, which in another place is
Speaker 1: going to be equally controversial. Yeah, it's not a universal
Speaker 1: freedom and it's and it's I mean, I was actually
Speaker 1: interested in and one of the questions I have for
Speaker 1: you was when people do a protest outside abortion clinics,
Speaker 1: and and the same with the Nazis protesting in that
Speaker 1: town that was primarily Jewish residents, what's the line with
Speaker 1: what they can say? I mean, because obviously threats are
Speaker 1: not so very very And then and that's a perfect example.
Speaker 1: So you know, I'm writing this whole book which is
Speaker 1: called hate, why we should resist it with free speech
Speaker 1: not censorship. And for that book, which I want to
Speaker 1: reach a general audience, not just lawyers, I had to
Speaker 1: really boil down, down, you know, thousands and thousands of
Speaker 1: pages of Supreme Court decisions into simple principles, and I
Speaker 1: was really able to do it, which was very educational
Speaker 1: to me too. So all of that complex free speech
Speaker 1: jurisprudence really boils down to two simple, sensible principles. One
Speaker 1: is a reason that you may never sensor speech, and
Speaker 1: the other is the only reason that you can censor speech.
Speaker 1: So you may never censor speech mere and this one
Speaker 1: is called viewpoint neutrality. You may never censor speech merely
Speaker 1: because the government or the majority of the people disagree
Speaker 1: with that viewpoint or the ideas. That is never just
Speaker 1: a vacation for censorship. You may censor if but only
Speaker 1: if the speech presents an emergency and imminent danger of
Speaker 1: serious harm that will happen immediately unle s their censorship.
Speaker 1: And you can only use censorship as a last resort
Speaker 1: if law enforcement can prevent the harm. You need to
Speaker 1: have law enforcement. You know, if um, counter speech and
Speaker 1: education persuasion can prevent the harm, then you need that.
Speaker 1: And so one example in the Supreme Court has created
Speaker 1: like the subcategories that satisfy the emergency test, and one
Speaker 1: of them is called lawyers call it a true threat,
Speaker 1: you know, not the way we loosely use the term
Speaker 1: threat in everyday life. But it has to be when
Speaker 1: the speaker means to instill a reasonable fear that there
Speaker 1: is going to be harm. So it can't just be
Speaker 1: all I feel scared. It's got to be objectively based,
Speaker 1: and the speaker doesn't have to intend to carry out
Speaker 1: the harm. The mere fact that you feel reasonably frightened
Speaker 1: is enough, because that already chills your freedom of movement
Speaker 1: and your freedom of speech. I just that just reminds
Speaker 1: me everything. Donald Trump says, it's hard to It's hard
Speaker 1: because when you're saying this. He I mean, I know
Speaker 1: that politicians, this is a time of strategy of instilling
Speaker 1: fear in a means to control, but that's in a
Speaker 1: loose way. I mean, like you fear that bad things
Speaker 1: are going to happen to the country. But you know,
Speaker 1: there are many things short of censoring his speech or
Speaker 1: the speech of his supporter, is that we can do
Speaker 1: to avert that danger actually coming to pass. Right, so
Speaker 1: it would be let me give you an example of
Speaker 1: a Supreme Court. Well, I can give you a horrible
Speaker 1: example that occurred in Washington, d C. Just testified in
Speaker 1: Congress recently on censorship on campus. And what was really
Speaker 1: amazing about it was all these college students came to
Speaker 1: the Congress to hear the testimony, and one of them,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm not going to remember her name, uh,
Speaker 1: an African American woman who had just been elected president
Speaker 1: of the student body at American University. And to my amazement,
Speaker 1: it was the first effort African American student body president
Speaker 1: in American University. So the day that she was installed
Speaker 1: as president, there were all of these nooses that were displayed.
Speaker 1: I know, I get a chill as I hear that,
Speaker 1: and To make it even more pointed, they hung bananas
Speaker 1: in the Newses and they had on the bananas they
Speaker 1: wrote the initials of her sorority and it said something,
Speaker 1: you know, like die. That is a true threat that
Speaker 1: would make you really reasonably fear, you know, not that
Speaker 1: bad things are ultimately going to happen in the country,
Speaker 1: as Donald Trump might instill, but that bad things are
Speaker 1: imminently going to happen to you physical danger. So saying
Speaker 1: that a population uh stereotyping Mexicans as rapists is not
Speaker 1: that's an idea, and it's an idea that we may deplore,
Speaker 1: but it's not posing a threat of imminent violence. And
Speaker 1: another major example that may well be satisfied by, you know,
Speaker 1: some other current events is what's called incitement, but again
Speaker 1: not the way we loose use it. So we would
Speaker 1: just say, oh, Donald Trump is inciting people to have
Speaker 1: discriminatory ideas and that might lead to discriminatory conduct. Now
Speaker 1: that's too loose to connections exactly. You know, So when
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court used to enforce this very loose test,
Speaker 1: which is called the bad tendency test, and it used
Speaker 1: the word incitement very loosely, you know that might lead
Speaker 1: to a bad idea that might lead to bad conducts
Speaker 1: sometime in the future. Oliver Wendell Holmes in dissent said, well,
Speaker 1: every idea is an incitement, and what I mean therefore
Speaker 1: we can censor any idea. No, it meant we have
Speaker 1: to have a very tight and direct causal connection the
Speaker 1: emergency standard. So Homes said, only an emergency can justify repression,
Speaker 1: and for an excitement it would be Uh, it has
Speaker 1: to be intentional incitement of imminent violence that's going to
Speaker 1: happen immediately. And then the banana in the news, well,
Speaker 1: that's a true threat, so it's a different kind of harm.
Speaker 1: So there was a case that the Supreme Court had,
Speaker 1: I mean, it was very sad case um arising so
Speaker 1: many of these cases arise out of context of race.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just so much of free speech jurisprudence
Speaker 1: came from the civil rights movement because Martin Luther King
Speaker 1: and the other civil rights demonstrators were constantly censored because
Speaker 1: guess what, their speech was seen as threatening, frightening, dangerous
Speaker 1: to national security, and citement. So we I always want
Speaker 1: to remind people that you now we associate censoring speech
Speaker 1: with censoring, anti racist, But those same principles have been
Speaker 1: used for advocates of every form of justice inequality not
Speaker 1: too long ago too. Why did Martin Luther King write
Speaker 1: his famous letter from Birmingham jail because they he was
Speaker 1: trying to speak and that was treated as a crime.
Speaker 1: You know, Margaret sing Or, why did she and Emma
Speaker 1: Goldman and other advocates of contraception they were imprisoned because
Speaker 1: oh there citing by giving women information about contraception and
Speaker 1: about their bodies. That's really dangerous, right, because you know,
Speaker 1: it was a crime then to use contraception. And if
Speaker 1: people get this idea, we'll guess what they might be
Speaker 1: incited to violate that law and to use contraception now dangerous,
Speaker 1: canna be? That's why it's terrifying as a comedian, because
Speaker 1: I mean people just don't realize. I mean, like, if
Speaker 1: you watch the Common the History of Comedy on CNN, uh,
Speaker 1: it was not very long ago that Lenny Bruce was
Speaker 1: getting dragged off stage and arrested, and I'm like, how
Speaker 1: can you stand Francisco and New York? This is uh?
Speaker 1: And how crucial it is to this art form surviving
Speaker 1: and frightening people's comfort levels, and that's what they're going
Speaker 1: off of. What they're saying, that it should be their
Speaker 1: liberty to take away others. It's so good about comforting
Speaker 1: for comics, for educators, for civil liberties activists, all of
Speaker 1: what we do, we're trying to move people out of
Speaker 1: their comfort levels, right about them. Well, when you're comfortable,
Speaker 1: you don't do anything because you say I feel comfortable,
Speaker 1: I'm okay, I'm not going to make a change. When
Speaker 1: you feel uncomfortable, you say I have to do something
Speaker 1: to get out of this state of discomfort. You know.
Speaker 1: One of the favorite lines that I've come across on
Speaker 1: on these topics with all the campus controversies about censorship,
Speaker 1: and you know how many major comics don't even go
Speaker 1: on campus anymore because they famous Um and my favorite
Speaker 1: statement came from quite a long time ago. It would
Speaker 1: have been around the year two thousand, I believe um
Speaker 1: Ruth Simmons, who was the first African American president of
Speaker 1: any Ivy League university and the first female president of
Speaker 1: Brown University, her grandparents were enslaved uh and they were
Speaker 1: already having these kinds of battles now where students are saying,
Speaker 1: I want to be comfortable. I don't want to hear
Speaker 1: an idea that's unwelcome. And she said education is the
Speaker 1: antithesis of comfort. Isn't that true? She said, If you
Speaker 1: come here seeking comfort, then there's yon iron gate depart.
Speaker 1: But if you care about education and about justice, stay
Speaker 1: here and fight. I had at Penn State my first
Speaker 1: year of college is at Penn State University, and there
Speaker 1: was a preacher or pastor, uh. Every day I passed
Speaker 1: him and he would say how homosexuality is the worst
Speaker 1: thing a human being can do. It's worse than incests,
Speaker 1: it's worse than rape, it's where and I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: oh he said, I mean he made he made the
Speaker 1: most ridiculous and a lot of his the things he
Speaker 1: was saying was so outlandish. But I would see people
Speaker 1: get really angry at him. I'm like, that's what he wants, though,
Speaker 1: and he can say what he wants to say on
Speaker 1: this campus, like the there is a free speech zone,
Speaker 1: so you can't. And I mean it made me uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: but that's like there are and you know, there are
Speaker 1: so many. We've been sort of talking about the principled
Speaker 1: reasons of why there should be robust free speech. They're
Speaker 1: also very practical and strategic reasons. And I was very
Speaker 1: because what you do by censoring an idea or a
Speaker 1: speaker is you draw more attention to them, right you
Speaker 1: You increase sympathy for them. Uh, they become free speech martyrs.
Speaker 1: People who try to censor them lose the moral high ground.
Speaker 1: So I was just writing about, you know, this infamous
Speaker 1: Scogee case, which kind of um epitomizes American law on
Speaker 1: this subject, because we really in law live up to
Speaker 1: the famous Voltaire statement, I despise what you say, but
Speaker 1: I defend to the death you're right to say it.
Speaker 1: And that pretty much sums up as I said, the
Speaker 1: viewpoint neutrality principle doesn't care how hated or loads the
Speaker 1: idea is by how many people, if it's not creating
Speaker 1: an emergency of physical danger that's imminently going to happen,
Speaker 1: say it, and the and the answer is counter speech
Speaker 1: or law enforcement. So when the a c when the
Speaker 1: the Skokie officials, supported by the local Jewish leaders in
Speaker 1: the community, initially we're going to let the Nazis march there.
Speaker 1: That was always there the strategy of all the major
Speaker 1: Jewish organizations because they didn't want to give the Nazis
Speaker 1: the publicity that they were seeking, and how do you
Speaker 1: get publicity by being confronted, either through violence or through censorship.
Speaker 1: But through some agitators they changed their position. They did
Speaker 1: pass these laws trying to block the Nazis from marching,
Speaker 1: and next thing, you know, for years that became just
Speaker 1: immedia sensation all over the world. The Nazis got all
Speaker 1: of this attention that they never would have gotten. I
Speaker 1: was shocked because I've just read for the first time
Speaker 1: that the Nazis had had submitted a permit application to
Speaker 1: march for twenty minutes with that thirty people, which is
Speaker 1: the wild exaggeration. They probably didn't have thirty people. That
Speaker 1: nobody would have paid any attention. I'm gonna coming on. Instead,
Speaker 1: it became this media frenzy for two solid years. In
Speaker 1: the same thing with Milo. As recently as January, I
Speaker 1: knew intelligent, more educated people who had never heard of him.
Speaker 1: But as soon as college has started trying to shut
Speaker 1: him down, that suddenly becomes this worldwide phenomenon. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then on the other side of that, like we I
Speaker 1: was telling you, really, we started recording. We were centered
Speaker 1: from iTunes and The Daily Beast gave our first gave
Speaker 1: our interview that like almost immediately upon releasing the podcast,
Speaker 1: and the headline was the podcast too hot for it. Oh,
Speaker 1: that's perfect, that's correct. It really does. It really does
Speaker 1: make this idea so much bigger. You know that they're
Speaker 1: they're actually it's such a common phenomenon that I came
Speaker 1: across many different terms that are accepted. So the forbidden
Speaker 1: fruits phenomenon, right, And then have you heard this the
Speaker 1: streisand effect, because yeah, so like many years ago, um,
Speaker 1: she tried to suppress photographs that of her Malibu beach
Speaker 1: and that's then then everybody got so interested and it
Speaker 1: got far more attention to kN that. So a lot
Speaker 1: of people you're evidencing the streisand effect. Well, I mean
Speaker 1: another legendary group obviously, the Race Girls that I quote
Speaker 1: a lot of times. I mean, this is not their
Speaker 1: original quote, but they always used to say, like, any
Speaker 1: publicity is good publicity, because unfortunately, in the world we
Speaker 1: live in, it absolutely is. I mean, even the story
Speaker 1: you were just you were just telling. I mean it's
Speaker 1: kind of similar to Charlotte'sville. Obviously that was a bigger scale,
Speaker 1: but I mean, I did a lot of research on that,
Speaker 1: and and the all right really depends on liberals pushing
Speaker 1: back as free publicity for this notion that most of
Speaker 1: the country does not share these ideals. And I was
Speaker 1: very interested to read an organization that I really admire
Speaker 1: a lot, called the Southern Poverty Law Center SPLC. So
Speaker 1: they recently issued brochure specifically for campus because the right
Speaker 1: wing groups are and the white supremacist groups are now
Speaker 1: really gearing up to recruit on campus. It's a big
Speaker 1: target for them. So with schools starting, they issued this
Speaker 1: this brochure, which was very helpful. What should students who
Speaker 1: are opposed to those white supremacist ideas do? And I
Speaker 1: had not realized this about SPLC. They absolutely opposed counter demonstrations.
Speaker 1: They understand why people want to do it, but they,
Speaker 1: you know, cajole and persuade that this is going to
Speaker 1: be it's going to be counterproductive to your goal of
Speaker 1: trying to draw attention away from these two people. Yes,
Speaker 1: have another event if you'd like, but have it completely separate.
Speaker 1: Have it be affirmative, so you can have a party
Speaker 1: and celebrating diversity and equality and inclusivity, but don't go
Speaker 1: face to face with them, that you're you're falling into
Speaker 1: their trap when you do that, they like, what's more
Speaker 1: annoying than just like a bunch of people celebrate and
Speaker 1: sparkles in the air. My favorite since the whole theme
Speaker 1: of my book, and I really believe it. I believe
Speaker 1: that free speech is by far or more effective in
Speaker 1: you know, mocking them, decrying their message, recruiting haters away
Speaker 1: from hate groups, recruiting other people UM to support equality,
Speaker 1: providing comfort to people who are victimized, UM, passing anti
Speaker 1: you know, there's so many positive steps. Martin Luther King
Speaker 1: is so unbelievably eloquent. But of all the eloquent statements
Speaker 1: he's made, I think my single favorite one is this,
Speaker 1: and it's on the front page of of my book. UM,
Speaker 1: in the end, we will not remember, um, the words
Speaker 1: of our enemies, but the silence of our friends. So
Speaker 1: that's so, that's what we have to And you know
Speaker 1: that makes me think of UM, the T S A
Speaker 1: and all those you know, regulators of transportation are always
Speaker 1: saying if you see something, say something. So I'm thinking
Speaker 1: if you hear something, say something, right, if you hear
Speaker 1: some hateful message or you hear somebody being harassed, then
Speaker 1: you have a responsibility to speak up. Why I was
Speaker 1: just reading about speaking of like counter protesting and stuff
Speaker 1: in Boston. Um, there was a I forget how they
Speaker 1: marketed it, how the white national was marketed it, but
Speaker 1: it was basically it wasn't like white whiteis Forever. But
Speaker 1: they marketed it that you could free speech. Yes, so
Speaker 1: it wasn't um and so. But then there were I
Speaker 1: don't know if it was a counter protest or or
Speaker 1: they were surrounded, but but it wasn't to my knowledge
Speaker 1: that I've read, there wasn't violence. And in fact, the
Speaker 1: people that were the liberals were actually helping the white
Speaker 1: nationalists if they wanted to escape the crowds, like while
Speaker 1: escorting them through the masses so they wouldn't get injured.
Speaker 1: But that was I guess that was a counter protest.
Speaker 1: But that's sure work. I'm not sure because I don't
Speaker 1: know enough of the facts. And you see, it would
Speaker 1: but I don't want people to be denied an opportunity
Speaker 1: to speak, So I don't want to give them acgen
Speaker 1: or publicity, but I don't want them to be so
Speaker 1: intimidated by the counter protesters that they can't voice their
Speaker 1: message because ultimately that can do more harm than the
Speaker 1: ghost of the KKK. Wow. Yeah, we went from black
Speaker 1: to white. Well, I mean I saw some aerial shots
Speaker 1: and basically everyone who's doing the counter protest seemed to
Speaker 1: be very excited because they're like, look, we got infurrounded.
Speaker 1: But it's like, but but if you had just not
Speaker 1: done the protest at all, it would have just been
Speaker 1: like and the center it would just look like an exactly,
Speaker 1: and they wouldn't have gotten attention. And that's that's but
Speaker 1: they rely on like I also think you with their
Speaker 1: marketing and branding strategies. I don't know if they put
Speaker 1: this much loot into it, but that's what I'm getting
Speaker 1: out of it. Oh, absolutely, you better believe it. They
Speaker 1: they view equality as radical and that's and that's what
Speaker 1: they kind of push onto liberals and kind of use
Speaker 1: it against them. And that's why the liberal snowflake kind
Speaker 1: of stereotype can be. I mean, I understand um being
Speaker 1: upset when liberals are like, well, I don't want racists
Speaker 1: to be able to say racist things, but it just
Speaker 1: you know what, if there are people with racist ideas,
Speaker 1: I want to hear it right. I want to know
Speaker 1: who they are. I want to make sure that they
Speaker 1: don't translate their ideas into actions, so I kind of
Speaker 1: want to watch that. I want the opportunity to perhaps
Speaker 1: debate them too, if that would be helpful in persuading
Speaker 1: somebody else who might be on the fence to hear
Speaker 1: an open date debate will be much more persuasive. But
Speaker 1: I also have a very hopeful attitude that I would
Speaker 1: like to discuss with them to try to dissuade them.
Speaker 1: Have done that, Uh No, I've never really had the opportunity. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, not somebody who was an out and out racist,
Speaker 1: but people with whom I've had strong disagreements. I often
Speaker 1: do that, and I always ask for the opportunity. It's
Speaker 1: always in a public context. I do so much public speaking.
Speaker 1: I don't really have time, not enough time for private conversations,
Speaker 1: even for my friends. Um. But you know, it's one
Speaker 1: of the reasons why I always say, if I have
Speaker 1: a choice, can we please make this a discussion rather
Speaker 1: than a debate, Because I think debate is designed to
Speaker 1: kind of score points, so you're trying to emphasize the
Speaker 1: differences involved, Whereas I really believe in trying to find
Speaker 1: the points of commonality. And if I've debated like every
Speaker 1: major conservative anti civil libertarian of my time, including Justice Scalia,
Speaker 1: just as Thomas Um. And this is actually debated Justice
Speaker 1: Glean yes, many times, on abortion, on on everything, oh
Speaker 1: except where we you know, one of the nice things
Speaker 1: about being a neutral. So what's true for all of us?
Speaker 1: But the A c L you deals with so many issues.
Speaker 1: I'm really aware of them, perhaps more than other people are.
Speaker 1: And and when you are a thinking person, and you're
Speaker 1: part of an organization that is not just knee jerk um,
Speaker 1: then there is no other thinking person with whom you're
Speaker 1: not going to agree on at least some issues of
Speaker 1: common concern and disagree. So no matter. And and I
Speaker 1: can say that. And I used to, you know, on
Speaker 1: the issue of sexual expression or pornography, to use the
Speaker 1: demonizing term I had in my book examples and pictures
Speaker 1: to try to that could convince anybody, no matter what
Speaker 1: your ideology was, no matter what your sexuality, no matter
Speaker 1: what your religion, I could give you an example of
Speaker 1: where you would be very upset that something that somebody
Speaker 1: else called pornography was being censored. To take a Christian conservative.
Speaker 1: For example, there's so much in the Bible that falls
Speaker 1: under any definition of pornography, including very very violent you know,
Speaker 1: gang rapes and murders. And oh, I've never I've grew
Speaker 1: up with zero religions, I've never read it. I actually
Speaker 1: really want to really read religious texts. I would not
Speaker 1: have guess is covered in the Bible. Well, you can
Speaker 1: read just a few pages in my book Defending Pornography,
Speaker 1: which gives examples from the Bible of what would be
Speaker 1: censored under the so called feminist anti pornography law. But
Speaker 1: Jesus hung out with a prostitute, I write, Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: some of this may have been from the Old Testament.
Speaker 1: There's the old one new damn. Um. We were watching
Speaker 1: one of a speech that you gave before we came here,
Speaker 1: and you mentioned something about a woman who was anti
Speaker 1: choice protesting in a safe speech zone on a college campus. Now,
Speaker 1: when I went to college, it was just whatever, New
Speaker 1: York City. But I mean, also, I'm just a little
Speaker 1: bit older before this stuff kind of like free free
Speaker 1: speech zone thing started. Um, but I know my cousins
Speaker 1: go to school in that kind of environment, and what
Speaker 1: is that? What is what is the free speech zone.
Speaker 1: The whole campus is exactly You're exactly right, the whole
Speaker 1: campus except for a classroom. Right. So basically, you should
Speaker 1: have a right to engage in free speech, which you
Speaker 1: would include with a group as well as individually, in
Speaker 1: any place that is not disrupting the educational function. So
Speaker 1: you wouldn't do it in a classroom unless the class
Speaker 1: is not being used for teaching at the moment, but
Speaker 1: certainly any public space, right, any sidewalk and a you know,
Speaker 1: rassy area and so forth. Now if there are multiple's say,
Speaker 1: there are multiple groups that all want to hold a
Speaker 1: demonstration at the same time, then there could be what
Speaker 1: we call viewpoint, neutral time, place and manner restrictions. Well
Speaker 1: you can't both use it at the same time, so
Speaker 1: you know, first come, first serve or some other neutral approach.
Speaker 1: But it's so orwellian to have these tiny little zones
Speaker 1: and their way remote where nobody can see them. Um,
Speaker 1: that is a way. That's a form of censorship, and
Speaker 1: the a c l U and FIRE, the Foundation for
Speaker 1: Individual Rights and Education have been challenging them with great success.
Speaker 1: So you know, a lot of the stuff that we're
Speaker 1: talking about is unconstitutional. But the fact that it's unconstitutional,
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it goes away. The constitution is not self enforcing.
Speaker 1: So until or unless you get a student who has
Speaker 1: guts enough too and cares enough to speak up against
Speaker 1: it and gets involved, you know, gets an organization that
Speaker 1: will help her him to challenge it, you know, the
Speaker 1: law might as well not exist. And that's why we
Speaker 1: have It's so critically important a to make people aware
Speaker 1: of what their rights are, be to make them impassionate
Speaker 1: about their rights, and and and so fire and the
Speaker 1: a c l U and other organizations that defend freedom.
Speaker 1: A huge majority of the cases are one just by
Speaker 1: making a phone call or by writing a letter, because
Speaker 1: once you tell the government official that you know, by
Speaker 1: the way, what you're doing is violating free they don't
Speaker 1: want to waste their money fighting it is what about facts?
Speaker 1: What what happens? What are those exactly? What about them?
Speaker 1: Because it isn't legal to for the President of the
Speaker 1: United States, for example, to state a statistic that is incorrect.
Speaker 1: I'm going to be a law professor, and that's my
Speaker 1: one and I'm and I'm going to ask, because law
Speaker 1: professors answer questions with question questions, do you think that
Speaker 1: it should be illegal for the president or for any
Speaker 1: official to uh lie? Should it be illegal? Well, what
Speaker 1: constitutes a lie? Oh, your dress looks lovely? But I
Speaker 1: don't think so, because sometimes you have to lie because
Speaker 1: he it's his job to keep us like safe, and
Speaker 1: so I think sometimes you have to lie to keep
Speaker 1: hysteria from from happening. And so I think that's what
Speaker 1: I'm trying to say, is why we think it's outrageous
Speaker 1: for a president to lie. It's even more outrageous to
Speaker 1: think that the government could be policing truth right, especially
Speaker 1: because sometimes it's ambiguous, sometimes it's hyperbole, and you know,
Speaker 1: and and sometimes it's a nice white lie to make
Speaker 1: people feel better, and they are very so. In fact,
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court had a case a few years ago
Speaker 1: in which it said lying is not automatically cannot be punished.
Speaker 1: It can be punished in certain very specific circumstances, such as,
Speaker 1: let me give you an example, fraud. If you make
Speaker 1: a lie that somebody reasonably relies on and that causes
Speaker 1: specific detriment. You know, you say this product is going
Speaker 1: to do X, and the person pays a hundred dollars
Speaker 1: in the product, does he not do X? Yeah? So
Speaker 1: that is a lie that's punishable. But you know, the
Speaker 1: kinds of lies that we hear are exaggerations or have
Speaker 1: truths that we hear politicians make all the time. We
Speaker 1: wouldn't want the government, like you know, listening to what
Speaker 1: they say, and we don't. We do want counterspeech, right,
Speaker 1: We want the polit effect and all those other monitoring
Speaker 1: organizations to be telling us when it's a lie and
Speaker 1: to be giving us the accurate information. That's much more
Speaker 1: informative than just stopping them from saying and balances of
Speaker 1: the government. Yeah, I mean, like basically that's why you know,
Speaker 1: so it's like you he can't turn into a dictator,
Speaker 1: like we have people checking what he says. But I
Speaker 1: mean statistics though, statistics if you if I think it's
Speaker 1: like if you start like nicol and diimy, like what
Speaker 1: it can what it can be. I mean, like an instance,
Speaker 1: like if you want to go really woooll into stuff
Speaker 1: that I like, like aliens. I fully believe that there
Speaker 1: are aliens, but the government can't tell us that because
Speaker 1: we'll freak the fucking right you shadow with the people
Speaker 1: in the government. Are there aliens? But statistics are get
Speaker 1: back to that, but statistics they are also, you know,
Speaker 1: so debated, and it depends on how you frame it.
Speaker 1: And Mark Twain, great humorist, I said something. He said,
Speaker 1: there are lawes, damn lies, and statistics, right if you
Speaker 1: got a good collection of quotes. When I used to
Speaker 1: be doing these debates against there was this guy named
Speaker 1: Ed Meats who was Attorney General under Ronald Reagan, and
Speaker 1: he was you know, people hated him the way that
Speaker 1: I mean liberals did, the way that a lot of
Speaker 1: liberals hate Jeff Sessions, I mean extreme right wing, very influential,
Speaker 1: and we debate it on everything, crime policy, and race
Speaker 1: and abortion, you name it. And I remember one time
Speaker 1: and we both had statistics, but they're completely different from
Speaker 1: each other, and neither one of us was lying because
Speaker 1: you've had diffferent sources, and are you know, looking at
Speaker 1: different premises or describing them in different ways. And I
Speaker 1: remember at the end of one campus debate, some student
Speaker 1: came up to us and he said, do you too
Speaker 1: live in the same universe? So I guess that kept
Speaker 1: back to your question about aliens. He was one of them.
Speaker 1: I am interested in this isn't I wrote about it
Speaker 1: in the book A little, and it's it's an it's
Speaker 1: an issue that it's really hard for me to talk
Speaker 1: about with someone who disagrees with me without me losing
Speaker 1: my temper. And I really want to try and talk
Speaker 1: to somebody who and have a discussion with somebody who
Speaker 1: believes opposite of me, because I want to see if
Speaker 1: I can get through it without yelling abortion and women's
Speaker 1: right to choose what to do with their own body
Speaker 1: and and all that and the and how. And I
Speaker 1: know that there are many reasons. But America's an industrialized
Speaker 1: nation but has one of the highest maternity death I know,
Speaker 1: I know. And there are factors, like more women in
Speaker 1: America are obese than in other countries, and you can
Speaker 1: link that to the food and what we're what passes
Speaker 1: is healthy from our government. But why why would a
Speaker 1: man have say, like the idea and I know this
Speaker 1: is such a simple silly thing, but like the idea
Speaker 1: that men decided that, like that's just I mean, but
Speaker 1: there are there are women the control, there are women
Speaker 1: who support restriction portioned. I just agreed to debate one
Speaker 1: right before coming down here? Did you debate or you know?
Speaker 1: I just they just invited me to do the debate
Speaker 1: public debating at the University of Virginia. I'm sure it'll
Speaker 1: be on YouTube by this YouTube my censor. What are
Speaker 1: the standards for some twhip You just can't steal? Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can't steal it. Just don't play like a Maryland
Speaker 1: man exactly. If you have a copywritten song in your video,
Speaker 1: they'll take it down. Otherwise you good. I think she
Speaker 1: shows slides of like a boarded fetuses. Maybe that might
Speaker 1: not that might not make cut in on YouTube. I
Speaker 1: don't know why. I was when we were in Washington,
Speaker 1: d CEE. We played a gig at the nine thirty Club,
Speaker 1: and I walked around before the gigs. I got got
Speaker 1: to the city early and I was walking. I waltchd
Speaker 1: to the White House and there was this guy who
Speaker 1: had the pictures like he just went to Kinko's and
Speaker 1: had a day and they were huge, like half the
Speaker 1: size of this giant conference room table of dead fetuses.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, look, no one likes the idea of
Speaker 1: it sit in their right mind, unless exact specifically for babies.
Speaker 1: Um So it's it's like, God, it's a lazy, interesting thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a great question. Christina I think part
Speaker 1: of the reason why, you know, the thousands of debates
Speaker 1: that I've done, I really lost my temper only once
Speaker 1: and and and I thought that I was eloquent, but
Speaker 1: I was showing my anger and I was yelling. I mean,
Speaker 1: I was that a high pitch. And everybody told me
Speaker 1: that was the least effective debate I had ever done.
Speaker 1: It wasn't that substantively, it was ineffective, But that affect
Speaker 1: so detracted from the persuasiveness. So you have to if
Speaker 1: you want to be persuasive, certainly to the person you're
Speaker 1: directly debating, but even to the audience, that's got to
Speaker 1: be an incentive for you to control the anger. It's
Speaker 1: not why Hillary Clinton never lost her ship because I'm
Speaker 1: looking at her, girl, I know what you're doing those debates.
Speaker 1: I was in the corner of the room where he
Speaker 1: was like creeping up behind. It's just it's not effective
Speaker 1: people for some reason. And you know, you're in media,
Speaker 1: so you know this stuff. People don't judge you so
Speaker 1: much by what you say, is by what they call
Speaker 1: your Q factor and your personality and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: And then the other thing that works for me, and
Speaker 1: it's not a put on it. Really it feels genuine.
Speaker 1: I have not debated somebody who I think is a
Speaker 1: person of bad faith. Now, we all start at a
Speaker 1: broad level with very common values, a real reverence and
Speaker 1: respect for life, a joy in life, a belief in ideas,
Speaker 1: and education. By definition, if they're if they're debating me,
Speaker 1: they're open to different ideas, They're willing to put their
Speaker 1: ideas to the So we have a lot of commonality
Speaker 1: at this high level of abstraction, and then passionate disagreements
Speaker 1: about how do you show reverence for life given that
Speaker 1: the fetus is definitely a potential life, given that that
Speaker 1: woman is definitely a life, uh and and a life
Speaker 1: that's going to be immediately impacted by whether or not
Speaker 1: she's forced to carry the pregnancy to term. But I
Speaker 1: think you have recognize that there are concerns on both sides,
Speaker 1: if you will, and that I think people of good
Speaker 1: will can come out differently on that. Uh So, would
Speaker 1: I say it's um So. I don't think that they're
Speaker 1: evil people. I don't think that they're people who hate women.
Speaker 1: I mean, some of the some of them might might.
Speaker 1: But I do think that they're fighting for something that
Speaker 1: they believe in everyone is even you can argue that
Speaker 1: the extremist terrorist groups are fighting for their religion and
Speaker 1: they're passionate about what they believe. I think about isis. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but if you believed so seriously, if you believed as
Speaker 1: these people do according to their religion, it's like and
Speaker 1: you can't. Kind of a belief in that sense is
Speaker 1: not subject to persuasion or dissuasion. It's just you believe
Speaker 1: in it. Um. If you believe that the fetus is
Speaker 1: a life, then killing it is tantamount to a horror.
Speaker 1: Is a terrorist killing a born child. They honestly don't
Speaker 1: see any difference. And I have seen people who have
Speaker 1: that deep faith and they look at me because I
Speaker 1: will never I will often go into pro life so
Speaker 1: called organizations I don't believe in only preaching to the
Speaker 1: converted um and they have you know, they look at
Speaker 1: me and people like me the way yeah, of course.
Speaker 1: And I've had people say to me things like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: you don't look like a devil, and I literally you
Speaker 1: don't have borns in it. Because they think it is
Speaker 1: so evil to support abortion the way we would say
Speaker 1: it's evil to support terrorism to advance your view of
Speaker 1: the good life. Do you know people? Are there people?
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are, But have you ever come across
Speaker 1: one debated one talk to one that believes that contraception
Speaker 1: should be illegal, like his anti concert certain forms of
Speaker 1: contraception that they believe act as a board of faciens. Yes,
Speaker 1: not so not the birth control pill, no, but certainly
Speaker 1: the morning so called morning after pill they do. And
Speaker 1: I can't uh um, I can't remember tech which ones.
Speaker 1: But this was a case that went to the Supreme
Speaker 1: Court under the Obamacare case. There were certain forms of
Speaker 1: contraception that a number of religious organizations thought were aboard
Speaker 1: of facians and that employers should not have to even
Speaker 1: provide insurance that was, you know, like the employer was
Speaker 1: two steps removed from it. Uh And the Supreme Court,
Speaker 1: by a five to four votes said that they didn't
Speaker 1: yet didn't have to provide that kind of insurance. Has
Speaker 1: anybody ever also believed Have you ever met? And I specifically,
Speaker 1: I'm interested if there is a mail that has ever
Speaker 1: believed this, because I know a lot of it blows
Speaker 1: my mind, but I I get it. I do understand
Speaker 1: that men have so like when I go, when I've
Speaker 1: been outside of an abortion clinic, or when I'm outside
Speaker 1: when I see people protesting with THETA signs, just in
Speaker 1: my personal experience, it's usually men. And yeah, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: so interesting because the cases that go to the Supreme Court,
Speaker 1: the demonstrators have all been women. So I wonder if
Speaker 1: that's strategically picked by the lawyers to make it seem
Speaker 1: more sympathetic. Yeah, maybe about right. But I wonder if
Speaker 1: there's a man who also believes whose anti choice and
Speaker 1: who is instead of pro life. I don't like saying
Speaker 1: pro life anymore because I know I know your branding
Speaker 1: and gonna work on the um. Ironically, a man did
Speaker 1: point out, like, you should say anti choice. I'm like, cute,
Speaker 1: you're right, Um, but if no one's ever been against
Speaker 1: men masturbating, because that's a bit that could have been
Speaker 1: a baby, I know. So there was a very funny
Speaker 1: article that was written long long ago, right after Roe
Speaker 1: versus Way first upheld this right and then it immediately
Speaker 1: became enormously controversial, and a law professor I'm sorry I
Speaker 1: can't remember her name wrote this article and she said, well,
Speaker 1: first of all, she said that, um, if abortion, if
Speaker 1: men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament. You
Speaker 1: heard that, but she did and use she's she's spelled
Speaker 1: it out. I want to say, spilled it out that
Speaker 1: if there were going to be an analogy, that that
Speaker 1: would that And she actually drafted a lot that was
Speaker 1: in the Law Review article that it would be a
Speaker 1: crime for a man to ever ejaculate except inside. I
Speaker 1: love the fact I can say this on the air.
Speaker 1: I can It would be a crime for a man
Speaker 1: to ejaculate except inside a fertile woman's vagina. And if
Speaker 1: he ever ejaculated outside of that context, he had to
Speaker 1: catch the stuff and put it in a baggy and
Speaker 1: run it down to some local place where it could
Speaker 1: be stored and ultimately used for vitro because that's potential babies,
Speaker 1: and I want to make sure that they get their chance.
Speaker 1: If that's the argument that we're taking, it's it's very um,
Speaker 1: it's very infuriating. And I know, I know you've spoken
Speaker 1: about abortion and its relationship to gender equality. Can you
Speaker 1: speak a little bit about that. Yeah, you know, it's
Speaker 1: so interesting that the very first woman on the Supreme Court,
Speaker 1: Sandra Day O'Connor, who was conservative Republican from a very
Speaker 1: conservative state, Arizona. She was the majority leader in the
Speaker 1: state legislature. Uh so she was no feminist liberal activist,
Speaker 1: and yet so it was very surprising. And she had
Speaker 1: spoken against Roe versus Wade. But then when push came
Speaker 1: to shove, and it was the first time the Supreme
Speaker 1: Court after she joined it was considering in a very
Speaker 1: important a c l U case from Pennsylvania called Planned
Speaker 1: parent and versus Casey. The Supreme Court was being asked
Speaker 1: to overturn Roe versus Way, And everybody thought that the
Speaker 1: votes were there because O'Connor and Kennedy had both spoken
Speaker 1: against it in other cases. Uh It, to everybody's surprise,
Speaker 1: there was this very dramatic joint opinion by Kennedy and
Speaker 1: O'Connor's all, all three of them were conservative Republicans appointed
Speaker 1: by conservative Republicans, and they all reaffirmed um ROW, but
Speaker 1: they did it on a slightly different rationale. So Row
Speaker 1: was based on this notion that's usually called privacy. It's
Speaker 1: a little bit misleading a term, but it means the
Speaker 1: freedom of choice to make decisions for ourselves on private
Speaker 1: matters that relate to our own bodies and our own
Speaker 1: sexuality and so forth. O'Connor inserted a women's rights rationale
Speaker 1: sheet for the very first time. She said, women can
Speaker 1: never be truly equal members of this society if they
Speaker 1: don't have control over their reproductive functions. And and and
Speaker 1: Ruth Pader Ginsberg, who had been the founding director of
Speaker 1: the a c l U Women's Rights Project, she had
Speaker 1: always made that argument too. She wasn't on the Court
Speaker 1: at the time, but she was making that argument as
Speaker 1: a lawyer. Yeah, she's she's an angel. But but how
Speaker 1: how come though that's not it's still isn't it? States
Speaker 1: U States have the power to enforce trap laws, which
Speaker 1: are essentially you know, the blades of grass on your
Speaker 1: on the lawn of your clinic. Canonics two inches oh,
Speaker 1: an expector goes down and their three inches shut down.
Speaker 1: Or hospital privileges which are unnecessary. But you would think
Speaker 1: hospital privileges makes sense, but then you learn that a
Speaker 1: colonoscopy is actually as procedure. So these are all So
Speaker 1: the standard the Supreme Court uses is and it's actually
Speaker 1: the standard that O'Connor invented. The question is whether any
Speaker 1: regulation imposes an undue burden on women seeking abortions And
Speaker 1: and then part of that analysis is is it just
Speaker 1: when they say it's to protect a woman's help, I mean,
Speaker 1: because a lot of them are rationalized, oh, this is
Speaker 1: for women's own good. But maybe that is just pretext
Speaker 1: and what they're really doing is just making it more costly,
Speaker 1: more difficult. And so the women who are driven away
Speaker 1: from abortion are the poor women and the young women
Speaker 1: and the uneducated women, and women who live far away
Speaker 1: from abortion providers, which are becoming few and far between.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Texas it only has a few abortion clinics.
Speaker 1: But then the maternity, the death of pregnant women goes
Speaker 1: up because if they if they made a decision for themselves,
Speaker 1: they're going to a lot of times. Figure it out
Speaker 1: to one of the things that you know, a free
Speaker 1: speech event ties in here so well because a strategy
Speaker 1: that had never ever ever been used before in the
Speaker 1: last Supreme Court case about abortion, which pro choice one,
Speaker 1: because Kennedy used the swing vote has which is very good,
Speaker 1: like a very yes, he was appointed by a conservative
Speaker 1: kind of figured that he was going to vote, so
Speaker 1: it really shows tjudicial independence. But anyway, in that case,
Speaker 1: for the very first time, so called friend of the
Speaker 1: court briefs were submitted, so when people aren't involved in
Speaker 1: the case directly, but they say, we've got some perspective
Speaker 1: that we think would help the court decide this case
Speaker 1: that has earth shattering significance far beyond the parties. Immediately
Speaker 1: before the court, and for the very first time, briefs
Speaker 1: were submitted by women who had had abortions, prominent women,
Speaker 1: successful women, professional women, including many lawyers and district attorneys
Speaker 1: and judges, in which they said, we've had abortions and
Speaker 1: it was so essential for our careers, for our family,
Speaker 1: So really giving substance to this idea that O'Connor had introduced.
Speaker 1: But in the abstract, we would not have meaningful equality.
Speaker 1: We would not have been able to pursue our education,
Speaker 1: we would not have been able to pursue our employment.
Speaker 1: We could have been good mothers to our existing children
Speaker 1: if we had not had the option of abortion. And
Speaker 1: what it was almost like coming out of the closet.
Speaker 1: I hate to say that because abortion has been so stigmatized.
Speaker 1: It's like you can't you don't talk about it. That's
Speaker 1: so important. You're really making a big contribution. I thought
Speaker 1: that was a huge breakthrough. Why is it such a
Speaker 1: taboo and as you were saying earlier, Karen, that you know,
Speaker 1: even though the government doesn't censor certain speech, there they're
Speaker 1: these social taboos that are as speech suppressive. And even
Speaker 1: though you have a right to an abortion, somehow it's
Speaker 1: treated like something that's so you should be so defensive
Speaker 1: and apologetic about and you should be ashamed of it,
Speaker 1: and it should be a stigma to you. And the
Speaker 1: only way to overcome that is to talk openly about it,
Speaker 1: and you can be a role model. You know, I
Speaker 1: had an abortion. I'm happy about out of it. And well,
Speaker 1: it's interesting is somebody who is so pro choice, pro choice,
Speaker 1: pro choice. And then the topic of like late term
Speaker 1: abortions had come up because people email us from all
Speaker 1: over the world at all hours of the day the
Speaker 1: most fast, their their stories, and a lot of times
Speaker 1: there are stories that they haven't told anybody else. And uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I never really had looked into it, but
Speaker 1: a lot of times and then and then I started
Speaker 1: to research it and and a lot of times, if
Speaker 1: if it is determined by multiple doctors that your baby
Speaker 1: will die either in utero, but if not very shortly
Speaker 1: after birth, like minutes an hour max, that's a huge
Speaker 1: reason that a lot of women, that's a major reason
Speaker 1: most of the women who have those abortions are people
Speaker 1: who they're planned pregnancies. They that the baby. Well, I
Speaker 1: were heard from a woman who um just said I
Speaker 1: could speak because I said, if anybody has any experience
Speaker 1: with that, I'm just curious to actually hear from women
Speaker 1: who have experience. And and she this one woman who
Speaker 1: wrote us had said, uh, she wanted the baby so bad.
Speaker 1: Her and her husband have been wanting a child, and
Speaker 1: and they learned seven or eight months in because a
Speaker 1: lot of those abnormalities manifest until the pregnancy. And she said,
Speaker 1: I made the choice to have the baby. She gave
Speaker 1: she gave birth. They were they were like seventy thirty,
Speaker 1: it's going to be a stillborn the baby. And but
Speaker 1: she she gave birth and her baby died maybe two
Speaker 1: minutes after and she held and she actually she sent
Speaker 1: me the picture of her holding her her deceased child.
Speaker 1: And but she said, I would never want a woman
Speaker 1: to be forced to do that. It worked for me.
Speaker 1: I was glad I did it, and we gave the
Speaker 1: baby a funeral and we but that's what I wanted
Speaker 1: to do. But I would never so the idea that
Speaker 1: you would have to force a woman to do that,
Speaker 1: and then the hysteria around the word late term abortion.
Speaker 1: Of course, no right human being wants to even think
Speaker 1: of babies, the impartial birth abortion. Yeah, that sounds hard.
Speaker 1: The language is very import and as you know, and
Speaker 1: I haven't followed this, but I heard that pro choice
Speaker 1: is no longer the term of choice, no pun intended
Speaker 1: for pro choice or so. I don't know what the
Speaker 1: new terminology. I like it because to me it connotes
Speaker 1: what the central value of liberty is, which is the
Speaker 1: individual right to make these basic determinations. But um, in
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court case in which they upheld the so
Speaker 1: called partial birth abortion band with Kennedy's switching side, so
Speaker 1: we lost that one five to four, the language was unbelievable,
Speaker 1: he wrote the majority opinion. He never once referred to
Speaker 1: it as a fetus. He referred to it as a
Speaker 1: preborn child, and unborn child, even a child. He never
Speaker 1: once used the word doctor. He called it abortionist. So
Speaker 1: I mean, you didn't even need to get beyond the
Speaker 1: statement of the facts, quote unquote, before you knew who
Speaker 1: was going to win and who was going to lose.
Speaker 1: And this is gonna make your blood boil. Cres Sina.
Speaker 1: Here is he you know, this Catholic man, conservative Republican. Well,
Speaker 1: that's beside the point. Um. He wrote an opinion in
Speaker 1: which he said, well, we're basically outlining these procedures for
Speaker 1: women's own good, because women will come to regret. They
Speaker 1: think they're making this choice, but they will come to
Speaker 1: regret it. Now, Ginsburg wrote a fabulous descent. But it's
Speaker 1: you know again, I say, even from bad speech, something
Speaker 1: good happens, because it was that statement that provoked for
Speaker 1: the first time women to come out and to submit
Speaker 1: those brief saying, you know what, I have no regrets
Speaker 1: at all. I'm thrilled that I had that abortion that
Speaker 1: was specifically in response to his opinion. Even anyone have
Speaker 1: a family needs abortion to be legal. I think, just
Speaker 1: any I mean just the Kennedy's general. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is a Columny podcast. I just want to let the
Speaker 1: irony of like a lot of halperful people, a lot
Speaker 1: of powerful people who say that they're against it. If
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like and then you sometimes story service
Speaker 1: of like yeah, well he gave a woman hush hush
Speaker 1: money to get rid of her situation on the side
Speaker 1: and stuff, but I really, um, do you think and
Speaker 1: this is this again is more of a personal opinion
Speaker 1: versus a law question. But um, yeah, we have three minutes.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, um that somebody. It seems to me, you know,
Speaker 1: anti choice is primarily a lot of Republicans are anti choice,
Speaker 1: men and women. It seems the majority. But you know what,
Speaker 1: there's a real there's an organization called Republicans for Choice.
Speaker 1: There's an organization called Catholic Love. Somebody emailed me about
Speaker 1: that and I was like, oh, thank you, because you know,
Speaker 1: so I wouldn't have known if you read their stuff.
Speaker 1: You realize it's not clear cut that the Catholic Church
Speaker 1: opposes abortion. And there's something else called the Religious Coalition
Speaker 1: for Choice. And you can actually go through every religious tradition,
Speaker 1: including Catholicism, and there's a lot in there that supports
Speaker 1: the principle of freedom of choice. Well, and the pope,
Speaker 1: the current pope had had said, freak defective, we can
Speaker 1: you can forgive yourself of the sin if you get
Speaker 1: an abortion, Like okay, thank you, But that was a
Speaker 1: big deal. And I think it's a lot of people's
Speaker 1: eyes Catholicism equals restricting and limited freedoms. But it seems
Speaker 1: like and maybe I don't know, I don't know if
Speaker 1: this opinion is just or not, but why would you
Speaker 1: want to Why would you want to vote against a
Speaker 1: woman being able to choose what to do with their
Speaker 1: own body, unless it's for your control over a population
Speaker 1: meaning gender, I like voting rights and stuff. I just
Speaker 1: I think it's you just because you don't share the idea.
Speaker 1: But I really they really do think it's murder. So
Speaker 1: that's why calling it a preborn baby kind of captures that.
Speaker 1: You know, they're saying, what's the big difference between the
Speaker 1: minute that has partly out of your body, then of
Speaker 1: course you can't kill it. So why the Rebecca Tray
Speaker 1: star in the in her book Um All the Single Ladies,
Speaker 1: was talking about how and she kind of quoted Republican
Speaker 1: politician speeches about um really being for a wife's you know,
Speaker 1: when women should be married, kind of being anti single woman,
Speaker 1: but not directly saying that, just saying that through other means,
Speaker 1: because then you have And then she kind of makes
Speaker 1: this larger argument a little bit about the means of control.
Speaker 1: So I was just like Oh, is there a connection
Speaker 1: there with with women's rights? And I know a lot
Speaker 1: of people truly just don't want babies being murdered because
Speaker 1: and I'm sure there are people who have bad motivations
Speaker 1: and there are people who have good motivations, and um,
Speaker 1: and you know, it's a little bit frustrating as somebody
Speaker 1: who engages in debate and and reasonable discourse. And I
Speaker 1: think comedy is is a the ultimate form of reasonable discourse. Right,
Speaker 1: You're always dealing with ideas. There are some unshakable faiths
Speaker 1: that people have, and I don't know how to how
Speaker 1: to get a red can't. Yeah, I don't really empathize
Speaker 1: with that. I've never had interested in it myself, but
Speaker 1: I've seen it in other people. Um, we need to
Speaker 1: let her go. Okay, I've got to teach. Yes, Yes,
Speaker 1: I could stay talking to you forever. Do you want
Speaker 1: much more? We'll have you on again. But we don't
Speaker 1: need to be late for your students, because that's selfish
Speaker 1: of us. This was so interesting. Um, where can we
Speaker 1: find you and your book? And what would you like
Speaker 1: to promote to our listeners? Oh? I would like to
Speaker 1: promote well, my book, but it's not going to be
Speaker 1: out till next year, so keep your eyes peeled for it.
Speaker 1: Oxford University Press. And it's called hate all caps. Why
Speaker 1: we should resist it with free speech not censorship. And
Speaker 1: other than that, I would say on the issues that
Speaker 1: we've talked about, freedom of speech, freedom of choice, women's equality,
Speaker 1: racial justice, every single one of those issues is on
Speaker 1: the A c l U Agenda. We defend all fundamental
Speaker 1: freedoms for all people, including people whose ideas we disagree
Speaker 1: with UM, so we need all the support we can get.
Speaker 1: These are rychelling time for civil liberty. So that's why
Speaker 1: we're so thankful to thought to thank you so much,
Speaker 1: well so much, and we'll put up a link to
Speaker 1: Tony and when your book comes down next year, we'll
Speaker 1: remind the listeners, thank you so much for seeing so much.
Speaker 1: It's my pleasure. This has been guys. We fucked the
Speaker 1: anti slut shaming podcast. We'll talk you next Friday. Every
Speaker 1: day funding keep drawing the knights because it's shocking. And
Speaker 1: if you still sting, how this side is what you
Speaker 1: wanted to be shouting to be. I sid want to
Speaker 1: be shooting to be. We're saying good bye. But it
Speaker 1: is that, he says, looking for. It's a dug your
Speaker 1: mind and it is. What he says is such a
Speaker 1: far sad shouting to be side should be to t