Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff
Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline and Caroline, I feel like we're
Speaker 1: gonna be so redundant even saying this, because our listeners
Speaker 1: are about to hear our intro all over again. Well,
Speaker 1: but it's great that you're going to hear it again
Speaker 1: because it's actually interactive and kind of special. It's very special.
Speaker 1: So today you're going to hear our live Stuff Mom
Speaker 1: Never Told You show from south By Southwest. And to
Speaker 1: any of you who are listening to this right now
Speaker 1: who were there at speak Easy in downtown Austin, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for coming. It was a ton of fun.
Speaker 1: It was a ton of fun, and it was it's
Speaker 1: always so great to meet you guys, um and to
Speaker 1: remember that they're amazing people out there, men and women
Speaker 1: are like who listen to us, that it's not to
Speaker 1: us in this padded cell of a recording studio. And
Speaker 1: I was so glad that so many people got to
Speaker 1: hear all of the amazing things that our guests, Nicole
Speaker 1: Cabrera had to say. And since Nicole is going to
Speaker 1: introduce herself in the live show in which we talk
Speaker 1: about sexism and science communication with a focus on astronomy
Speaker 1: for a reason that will make itself very known very soon. Caroline,
Speaker 1: should we just dive right in. Let's dive right in. Alright, folks,
Speaker 1: So here you go live from south By, Southwest. It's
Speaker 1: stuff Mom never told you. Since this is being recorded,
Speaker 1: we're gonna start. We're really just gonna pretend that we're
Speaker 1: all in the stuff Mom never told you studio together,
Speaker 1: although be glad that we aren't because it's a tiny room.
Speaker 1: It would be very uncomfortable. Um, but this is our
Speaker 1: stuff I've never told you studio today, and we're gonna
Speaker 1: start our show the same way we start all of
Speaker 1: our podcast us. We're gonna say our names and then
Speaker 1: when I point to you, say and I'm and then
Speaker 1: say your name and it will sound, you know, just
Speaker 1: like hot mess. You'll love it. It's gonna add to
Speaker 1: the effect. All right, you ready, I'm homeless, like it's
Speaker 1: a steeringmail. Let's do it, okay, cool, Hello, and welcome
Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Kristin, and I'm Caroline, and I'm Nicole.
Speaker 1: I caught all of those names and I'll remember every
Speaker 1: one of them. That's so good. Uh. So today we're
Speaker 1: talking about sexism and science communication, and we're gonna let
Speaker 1: Nicole talk a little bit about UM. Why it's so
Speaker 1: relevant to talking about it here at south By Southwest
Speaker 1: Interactive because technology is a huge part of these conversations
Speaker 1: that are going on. So, first of all, Nicole, would
Speaker 1: you just introduce yourself to our wonderful audience. Sure. My
Speaker 1: name is Nicole Cabrera Salazar and I am a PhD
Speaker 1: student at George Say University. I study astronomy and if
Speaker 1: everything goes well, I'll be graduating with my PhD at
Speaker 1: the end of this year, so I will be Dr
Speaker 1: Cabrera Salazar. And so tell us why beyond just hanging
Speaker 1: out with us, you're here at SALPA. This is actually
Speaker 1: the reason, Oh I flew all this way. Um, Well,
Speaker 1: I have a panel. Um. That's it's not just my
Speaker 1: panel actually, but Jen Goldbeck Um, who's a TED fellow
Speaker 1: and my friend a summer ash We're doing a panel
Speaker 1: tomorrow at I think five o'clock if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 1: On UM it's called hashtag distracting lye sexy, and it
Speaker 1: has to do with how to fight science sexism on
Speaker 1: social media. Um, and we're gonna talk about all the
Speaker 1: different Twitter campaigns that have started to fight all of
Speaker 1: the science sexism that y'all have been hearing about recently.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so we're gonna kind of give a little
Speaker 1: intro to some of that stuff that you're gonna be
Speaker 1: talking about even more in depth tomorrow. Um. But first
Speaker 1: we want to tell our meat cute story with the
Speaker 1: hole because it involves a wonderful email to mom stuff
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com, where you can also
Speaker 1: email as cute things. Yes. Um, okay, So we had
Speaker 1: done a two part episode on women in astronomy. We
Speaker 1: got really into it. It was originally gonna be one episode,
Speaker 1: but then we had to make a chick contained because
Speaker 1: it's that much sexism. Um. So we got this email
Speaker 1: from a fabulous lady named Nicole and she said, you
Speaker 1: mentioned in your podcast that you were wondering if there
Speaker 1: would be any lady Neil de grass Tyson's anytime soon.
Speaker 1: It just so happens that I'm getting my PhD in astronomy,
Speaker 1: graduating next year and I'll be going into astronomy education
Speaker 1: and public outreach. Sorry if this is embarrassing the same
Speaker 1: sort of thing thel Degrass Tyson does, just on a
Speaker 1: smaller scale. I'm not sure if I'll ever achieve this
Speaker 1: kind of fame, but I'm super passionate about making astronomy
Speaker 1: accessible to everyone, and I want to focus my career
Speaker 1: on encouraging women and minorities to pursue STEM careers. So
Speaker 1: how could we not reach out to Nicole also because
Speaker 1: she was in Atlanta and be like, hey, let's be
Speaker 1: friends and let's talk in Austin. UM. And Nicole has
Speaker 1: a fantastic Ted Talk that you should absolutely watch after this,
Speaker 1: and I, because I'm creepy, was watching it this morning
Speaker 1: while I was doing my hair. Yeah, I was, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm a fan, not too stalky. Um. And one thing
Speaker 1: that jumped out to me Nicole was how you were
Speaker 1: talking about being a feminist since you were eleven, which
Speaker 1: I was like, dang impressive. Um, But it wasn't until
Speaker 1: you really started pursuing STEM education higher education that it
Speaker 1: awakened more of your intersectional awareness and the activism that
Speaker 1: you're focused on now. So could you just kind of
Speaker 1: take us through your journey with that? Um? So I
Speaker 1: did talk about this a little bit in my in
Speaker 1: my talk and it's that. Um, there's a lot of muchiesmore.
Speaker 1: I grew up in Miami, so a lot of Hispanic people. Um.
Speaker 1: I grew up in a place. Yeah, somebody from Miami's here. Um.
Speaker 1: I was not the minority, right UM. My high school,
Speaker 1: I think I might have known maybe two white people
Speaker 1: growing up and that was just normal for me. Um.
Speaker 1: And it was actually um, not until I came to Atlanta.
Speaker 1: I went to a community college, first, Miami Dad College,
Speaker 1: which was fantastic, and then I transferred to Georgia Tech,
Speaker 1: which was my high school physics teachers alma mater, and
Speaker 1: I wanted to go there because he went there. Um.
Speaker 1: And then when I moved to Atlanta, I very quickly
Speaker 1: realized that I was a minority there. Um and and
Speaker 1: that was really shocking for me. Was a huge culture shock.
Speaker 1: So I had I had been a feminist since I
Speaker 1: was young, because you know, I had recognized all of
Speaker 1: the ship that women have to go through, um in
Speaker 1: my culture. But um, but as far as you know,
Speaker 1: my race being any part of that, I just wasn't
Speaker 1: aware until I had to, you know, especially at Georgia Tech,
Speaker 1: where they're just very few women and very few minorities,
Speaker 1: UM compared to the demographic of Atlanta compared to the
Speaker 1: demographic of the United States. So that was just a
Speaker 1: huge shock for me. Yeah, we'll tell us about how
Speaker 1: what led you to astronomy in the first place. Well, UM,
Speaker 1: so in high school I had this really encouraging physics teacher,
Speaker 1: UM who was amazing, and he saw my potential and UM,
Speaker 1: and he nurtured that, and so I decided I wanted
Speaker 1: to be in physics. So I went to Georgia Tech
Speaker 1: and I studied physics. And while I was there, UM,
Speaker 1: my first semester there, I had an astronomy class and
Speaker 1: it was awesome, and I thought, this is amazing. So
Speaker 1: I started doing research with my astronomy professor and he said,
Speaker 1: you know, you should apply for summer internships the National
Speaker 1: Science Foundation. UM. They fund these UM internships over the
Speaker 1: summer and you go and they pay you. And so
Speaker 1: I applied to ten different ones that year and I
Speaker 1: got into just one and it was in Hawaii. So
Speaker 1: of course I wasn't going to turn that down. And
Speaker 1: I got to live in Hawaii for three months. I
Speaker 1: got to go up to the telescopes and use the telescopes.
Speaker 1: I got to do full time astronomy research, and I
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I could. I could do this for life.
Speaker 1: So that's how I decided to go into astronomy. And
Speaker 1: then of course I applied to grad school and here, well, so,
Speaker 1: but what is the intersection though, I mean we are
Speaker 1: talking about intersectionality, but um, what is the intersection of
Speaker 1: you studying astronomy and getting into the sciences and realizing,
Speaker 1: oh wait, I actually want to go over to the
Speaker 1: h advocacy activist arena? Right? So I had. As soon
Speaker 1: as I came to Atlanta and I started my bachelor's
Speaker 1: in physics, I realized that not only was I the
Speaker 1: only woman in all of my physics classes, but I
Speaker 1: was also the only minority. UM, so it was all
Speaker 1: white dudes and me, and that can be really intimidating.
Speaker 1: And I was just super aware of that, and so
Speaker 1: I wanted to connect with other women. And I always
Speaker 1: had been passionate about science education and just like telling
Speaker 1: people about astronomy because it's so cool. And I just
Speaker 1: focused a lot of that energy trying to reach people
Speaker 1: like me. So because I had a hard time, UM
Speaker 1: going through that. UM. The year that I graduated, I
Speaker 1: was the only woman graduating with a physics degree UM,
Speaker 1: and I'm pretty sure the only minority as well, just
Speaker 1: from Georgia Tech. And so that had a huge effect
Speaker 1: on me. And then grad school. I came in wanting
Speaker 1: to be a researcher. UM. I was there for I
Speaker 1: think four years and after that, UM, there was just
Speaker 1: a lot of hardship that you have to go through
Speaker 1: a lot of intimidating places and just um, you have
Speaker 1: a different experience, I feel like than than when you're
Speaker 1: a white dude who has tons of other white dudes
Speaker 1: around him validating his experience. UM. And I had a
Speaker 1: lot of just difficulties in my department UM or in
Speaker 1: my experience as a grad student that I always thought
Speaker 1: were like because I was a lady UM, but then
Speaker 1: I realized that, um, some of the white women around
Speaker 1: me were not experiencing the same things, right, And so
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, like maybe race has something to
Speaker 1: do with it too, And so that was really shocking
Speaker 1: for me and UM and also just knowing that the
Speaker 1: number of sacrifices I would have to make in my
Speaker 1: life in order to make it as a professor, right,
Speaker 1: Like you have to give so much up and you
Speaker 1: have to you know, travel the world doing temporary research
Speaker 1: positions and then publishing lots of papers, and that means
Speaker 1: working around the talk and maybe putting off having a
Speaker 1: family and putting off you know, having a good work
Speaker 1: life balance. And I didn't want that. UM. And as
Speaker 1: a woman, you have to be much much more competitive
Speaker 1: than your male counterparts in order to make it as far.
Speaker 1: And I just thought, you know, it's not worth it
Speaker 1: for me. I'm not I might get to the end
Speaker 1: of that and be in my late thirties early forties
Speaker 1: and there might not be a job for me guaranteed.
Speaker 1: So and then I'm gonna have to change careers at
Speaker 1: that point. I'd rather do something that I'm also passionate
Speaker 1: about and UM, that I can really dedicate my life
Speaker 1: to enter, um dictate the terms of So in the
Speaker 1: process of all this, I'm curious if you sort of
Speaker 1: found your community people who had experienced similar things and
Speaker 1: probably felt similarly isolated at all. Yeah. So, UM, it
Speaker 1: wasn't until last year, not even a year ago. UM,
Speaker 1: there was this huge, hugely different conference that was started,
Speaker 1: UM called Inclusive Astronomy, and it was the very first
Speaker 1: conference of its kind, and it had to do with
Speaker 1: you know, we're going to talk about these issues, all
Speaker 1: the isms in astronomy, able ism, sexism, racism, and how
Speaker 1: it affects our young scientists and what what are we
Speaker 1: gonna do about it too. So it was this like
Speaker 1: three or four day conference. I took maybe seven grad
Speaker 1: students with me. UM. It was in Nashville, and over
Speaker 1: those three days, we learned about you know, systemic racism,
Speaker 1: we learned about how sexism affects the numbers, and we
Speaker 1: also put together recommendations for the community, the astronomy community
Speaker 1: in terms of universities, departments, the National Science Foundation, you know, NASA,
Speaker 1: how can what can we recommend to them to make
Speaker 1: it better for people like me and for other people
Speaker 1: at other other intersections. UM. And so that going to
Speaker 1: that conference, that was the first time I had met
Speaker 1: other Latina astronomers UM very first time, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: you know, very far along in my graduate career, and
Speaker 1: so that was a huge shock to me, and UM
Speaker 1: it just made me realize, like, wow, I haven't had
Speaker 1: this community this whole time. It has been very isolating,
Speaker 1: and I need to be able to have that so
Speaker 1: that I can UM succeed. And it seems like to
Speaker 1: that point, in the context of being here at south By,
Speaker 1: that social media and tech have facilitated some of that
Speaker 1: community building as well. Yes, yes, because, um, so a
Speaker 1: lot of these conversations you can't have in real life
Speaker 1: because most of your colleagues are they don't get it
Speaker 1: right if they're not experiencing those things. You know, a
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of guys have told me like, wow,
Speaker 1: I can't believe all the sexual harassment and astronomy is happening,
Speaker 1: Like they just had no idea and it's happening right
Speaker 1: under your nose, right, But it's because, um because when
Speaker 1: you don't have to experience some identity, then you're completely
Speaker 1: blind to it. Um. And So I have found online
Speaker 1: several communities that I can connect with other like minded
Speaker 1: people who are fighting for those same rights in astronomy
Speaker 1: and science in general. Um and and those are the
Speaker 1: people that I've really been able to connect with it
Speaker 1: so that I don't feel so isolated and alone. Yeah. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: and it seems too that speaking of astronomy, that's really
Speaker 1: been the hot bed for a lot of this. There's
Speaker 1: been so much activism specifically within astronomy and as a
Speaker 1: lay person. Um, it surprised me. I mean, I had
Speaker 1: no idea. But also that tells you a lot about
Speaker 1: how much I know about the day to day workings
Speaker 1: of astronomers, um, but curious to know why astronomy. So
Speaker 1: I really think, So okay. What we have to realize,
Speaker 1: and this is something that we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: more tomorrow, is that science is not above culture, right A.
Speaker 1: Science is actually deeply entrenched in the culture that we
Speaker 1: all live in. And that means that there's gonna be
Speaker 1: If there's gonna be sexism in society, there's gonna be
Speaker 1: sexual harassment in society, it's going to happen in science
Speaker 1: as well. The problem is that we associate science as
Speaker 1: being this objective, noble field where nothing bad can happen
Speaker 1: because scientists are, you know, so objective and so smart
Speaker 1: and everything, and of course they're going to be above that.
Speaker 1: But they're not. And also another problem is that, you know, um,
Speaker 1: in academia in general, not just in science, but just
Speaker 1: in academia, you have professors who are you know, they're
Speaker 1: bringing in millions of dollars in grants and they have tenures,
Speaker 1: so it's really hard to get them fired. And you're
Speaker 1: they're more powerful, and you have these younger grad students
Speaker 1: or undergrad students sometimes they have no power and they
Speaker 1: are not as important to the universities UM as these
Speaker 1: professors are. And so we have a community that's actually
Speaker 1: willing to talk about these issues. So, starting I think
Speaker 1: with that inclusive Astronomy conference and even much before, there
Speaker 1: are members of the astronomy community who have been fighting
Speaker 1: this all along. And when that story broke out, our
Speaker 1: community rallied together on social media so that UM Jeff
Speaker 1: Marcy would get fired because you know, in the midst
Speaker 1: of all this, you know, it came out that the
Speaker 1: Title nine investigation that he went through, UH, they found
Speaker 1: him in violation. He had harassed several students, undergraduate students
Speaker 1: UM and more than than we even know about. And
Speaker 1: the University of California Berkeley said, well, the next time
Speaker 1: you do something like this, you might get fired. And
Speaker 1: our community was outraged. And so the people in this
Speaker 1: community really fought through social media, a lot of the
Speaker 1: younger people UM and and putting pressure on journalists and
Speaker 1: putting pressure on UM, on departments and agencies, and and
Speaker 1: that's why you're hearing about it. It's not that it's
Speaker 1: not happening in other places. It's that we're speaking out,
Speaker 1: and that's actually a good sign because it means that
Speaker 1: we're having these open discussions. Um, and so hopefully other
Speaker 1: fields will will also follow that example. Yeah, I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask more about Jeff Marcy. So he was he's
Speaker 1: what an exo planet researcher, okay, um, And when news
Speaker 1: broke that he had been harassing women and this had
Speaker 1: been going on for a decade, which he described as
Speaker 1: just misunderstandings, you know, I just played and simple. Um.
Speaker 1: It was really greeded as like an open secret, like
Speaker 1: people had known about what was going on with Marcy
Speaker 1: and the women that he was harassing for years. So
Speaker 1: we were wondering, how is that kind of wilful blindness
Speaker 1: even possible? Um, So it's possible because again because of
Speaker 1: the culture we live in and the culture of silence
Speaker 1: that surrounds these you know, survivors of sexual assault and
Speaker 1: sexual harassment. So you have, first of all, there's a
Speaker 1: power and balance. This thing is actually quite planned out.
Speaker 1: There's something that um in the Women in Astronomy blog
Speaker 1: was called um the Harasser's playbook. So I mean it's
Speaker 1: kind of like grooming victims. And then it's always this power,
Speaker 1: huge power and balance where the person who's doing the
Speaker 1: harassing UM has a hold on your career somehow. And UM,
Speaker 1: they are afraid to report because if they report, then
Speaker 1: it gets dragged you know, through the media or you know,
Speaker 1: in the community. Even in these small communities, you need
Speaker 1: recommendation letters from your advisors. If this guy is your advisor,
Speaker 1: you're not going to succeed in the field. And that's
Speaker 1: why a lot of women end up leaving UM. And
Speaker 1: so that culture of silence. You know, it's gonna affect
Speaker 1: my career. Other people are not going to believe me.
Speaker 1: It's all. It's a symptom of the larger cultural problem.
Speaker 1: And UM astronomy is a huge field. There are lots
Speaker 1: of different sub fields, but my particular subfield is Excel clanets.
Speaker 1: And so I had been warned about this guy, you know,
Speaker 1: years ago, and and someone told me through this underground information, UM,
Speaker 1: you know, don't be alone with this guy at a
Speaker 1: conference if you ever see him, like, you know, try
Speaker 1: to stay away from him because he's dangerous. UM. And
Speaker 1: so I had I never had to meet him. Fortunately,
Speaker 1: I guess. Um, But but that was something that all
Speaker 1: the women knew because they're handing out this information to
Speaker 1: each other to protect each other. But the men, you know,
Speaker 1: by definition, never hear about it. So it's it's this
Speaker 1: the whole system that allows these problems to happen, and then, um,
Speaker 1: you know, we have to come up with ways to
Speaker 1: protect each other. Um, but it's it's not effective, it's
Speaker 1: it's not good enough. Right, So well, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it gets I mean the whole thing is connected to
Speaker 1: this could true of victim blaming and you needing to
Speaker 1: protect yourself and keep yourself away from this guy who's
Speaker 1: still in a position of power, which is so messed up. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well I also want I want to jump off of
Speaker 1: that concept because we were talking in our uber here
Speaker 1: or lift sorry this lift I lift here. Um about
Speaker 1: I wonder if it's a generational thing because all you
Speaker 1: you have the same sexism, in the same harassment, but
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you have all of these women
Speaker 1: in the past. Ye're so really starting to speak out
Speaker 1: and say, not only is this not okay, but we're
Speaker 1: going to hold you accountable. Versus the advice columnist who
Speaker 1: wrote for I Think it was science science magazines. Who guess,
Speaker 1: And somebody wrote in and said, you know, I'm being harassed.
Speaker 1: I'm you know, my boobs are getting stared at at
Speaker 1: the office, like I'm experiencing all this stuff. What do
Speaker 1: I do? And the advice columnists said, well, and this
Speaker 1: was a woman writing, yes, it's not a dude, and
Speaker 1: the lady person said, you know, just deal with it.
Speaker 1: Just started to put up with it. It's part of
Speaker 1: the job. It's part of the industry, you know, you
Speaker 1: you should just put up a shut up And so like,
Speaker 1: what's going on there? Is this a generational thing? Or
Speaker 1: what do you feel like is behind part of the shift?
Speaker 1: So I think that social media plays a hugely important
Speaker 1: role because and Twitter, especially Twitter is actually the social
Speaker 1: media platform that best represents the demographics of the U s. Right,
Speaker 1: So other social media platforms like Reddit, um, you have
Speaker 1: a bunch of you know, men who are between the
Speaker 1: ages of like, you know, sixteen and thirty vibe or whatever,
Speaker 1: and white men, and they dominate the conversation, whereas on
Speaker 1: Twitter you have uh, you know, more diversity, and so
Speaker 1: you get more voices heard. So traditionally women did not
Speaker 1: have a platform to speak. Minorities now have a platform
Speaker 1: to speak, and now social media is providing that. So
Speaker 1: it's not that these conversations weren't happening before, it's that
Speaker 1: no one was listening, and social media provides a platform
Speaker 1: for people to actually, you know, those voices get amplified.
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about some of those campaigns,
Speaker 1: the ones that have stood out to you as extremely effective. Yes,
Speaker 1: so absolutely this Jeff Marcy kase. I feel like most
Speaker 1: people have heard about that, even people who were not
Speaker 1: at all in touch with astronomy. So that was a
Speaker 1: really big one. After that story broke, UM astro s
Speaker 1: H was the hashtag that people used UM and it
Speaker 1: was so it stands for sexual harassment, and people were
Speaker 1: talking about it. People were coming out with their own stories, supporting,
Speaker 1: you know, the victims and and trying to get this
Speaker 1: guy fired. And our community puts so much pressure not
Speaker 1: just on the University of California, Berkeley, but also on
Speaker 1: the journalists who were writing headlines sympathizing with Jeff Marcy,
Speaker 1: who were writing content that you know, his They were
Speaker 1: quoting his wife for some reason as like a legitimate
Speaker 1: source of information. And that was in the new York Times. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so our community did not stop. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: part of this spacebook group that's UM, it's for equity
Speaker 1: and Inclusion in physics and astronomy, And all the people
Speaker 1: in there were like, we're writing a letter, like who's
Speaker 1: gonna sign it, who's gonna help us? Help us draft it,
Speaker 1: you know, or we're over here on Twitter like talking
Speaker 1: about this, like everybody like get on board. And so
Speaker 1: we really organized UM and there were some key people
Speaker 1: doing those that organization too, and so astrosh I mean,
Speaker 1: it has had a huge reach, not just for that case,
Speaker 1: but more recently, there was a case of a sexual
Speaker 1: harassment Title nine investigation that happened UM about Tim Slater. Um.
Speaker 1: This happened like ten years ago or something. But now
Speaker 1: he's at a different university who's also found in violation.
Speaker 1: Now he's at a different university, doing really well and
Speaker 1: getting paid and everything, because UM, that information was either
Speaker 1: not disclosed or dismissed. So he was found in violation.
Speaker 1: Then his next employer either knew the information and didn't
Speaker 1: do anything about it or just straight up didn't know.
Speaker 1: So recently, Representative Jackie Spear, she's a representative from California.
Speaker 1: She heard about this through this hashtag. I think it
Speaker 1: was actually her staffers who informed her about it, and
Speaker 1: she's now proposing legislation that's going to make these tied
Speaker 1: all nine investigations at least in the state of California, transparent,
Speaker 1: so that that information becomes public, right the the conclusions
Speaker 1: of the investigations become public, and that you know, to
Speaker 1: force universities to share that information with the future employer
Speaker 1: of the perpetrators, and that that would be huge because
Speaker 1: currently it's you know, you have a timeline investigation and
Speaker 1: then nothing happens, I mean literally a slap on the wrist,
Speaker 1: and sometimes not even that. I mean, that's incredible though.
Speaker 1: I mean I feel like hashtag activism is dismissed a
Speaker 1: lot of times. It's like, oh, that's so cute, you
Speaker 1: all hashtag fun. But I mean these things are creating
Speaker 1: actual political institutional changes. It's incredible. Yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think the people who complain about it are usually the
Speaker 1: people who don't need it. So like, you know, if
Speaker 1: if you're a white dude and you see yourself represented everywhere,
Speaker 1: like of course you don't see the purpose of it.
Speaker 1: But I actually for people who normally don't have a voice.
Speaker 1: It's a huge deal. And I feel like that divide
Speaker 1: is also I mean, speaking of the New York Times,
Speaker 1: that's your liked it in our mainstream regular media that
Speaker 1: you have. I mean, if you you need to look
Speaker 1: at who's in your newsrooms and who is then covering
Speaker 1: issues like sexism in science, and then that colors how
Speaker 1: those stories come out. And then of course people who
Speaker 1: aren't in science, they are reading these mainstream media outlets
Speaker 1: and and that is informing their opinion of what's going
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Speaker 1: Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage
Speaker 1: and type in stuff that's stamps dot com. Enter stuff.
Speaker 1: And now back to the show. Speaking of mainstream media,
Speaker 1: So there was a a Wired article headlined was the
Speaker 1: year we really started caring about sexism and science. And
Speaker 1: there are a couple of parts that really jumped out
Speaker 1: to me. Um, because this really is a new thing
Speaker 1: that even science journalists are talking about. You know. That's
Speaker 1: why we wanted to talk about science communication because we've
Speaker 1: been hearing a lot of these issues within academia. But
Speaker 1: it's also an issue in the information that we're hearing
Speaker 1: about it and how it's being reported. And may I
Speaker 1: quote from the Wired article, Um, Look, they're just okay.
Speaker 1: So they interviewed Deborah Bloom, who is a science journalist
Speaker 1: and also director of the Nights Science Journalism Program at
Speaker 1: m I T. So this woman knows what she's talking about.
Speaker 1: And she said, quote, I don't think we saw these
Speaker 1: kinds of news stories and saw this kind of reaction
Speaker 1: in the journalism community in earlier generations. We're all catching
Speaker 1: up to this kind of cultural awareness. And then later
Speaker 1: on the Wired writer had to say, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: and also, if we look at Wired, this is what
Speaker 1: I have to also own up to the fact that
Speaker 1: we have only sporadically covered this issue as well. And
Speaker 1: the writer said, we've been silent on many of these
Speaker 1: stories because we've long hoped to cover the ways that
Speaker 1: science can make the world better, not reflect to the
Speaker 1: world's problems. But that's wrong, of course, and ignoring social
Speaker 1: inequality doesn't fix it. Yeah, well, I mean I also
Speaker 1: think there I mean, I didn't read the article, but
Speaker 1: there's also the issue of when you have science represented
Speaker 1: by white men, right, then the other people who participate
Speaker 1: in science are not as important because they're not as numerous.
Speaker 1: And so why would you report on things that don't
Speaker 1: affect your white male audiences or don't affect most scientists, right,
Speaker 1: because they're mostly composed of white men. So I think
Speaker 1: there's there's that branch of it too. I think that
Speaker 1: affects it. Well, I'm going to something that you talked
Speaker 1: about earlier in terms of people assuming, oh, well, science
Speaker 1: is so objective, you know, they're so smart, like these
Speaker 1: these kinds of issues are totally separate. And I think
Speaker 1: it's that idea of almost like church and state of like, oh,
Speaker 1: these like humany feelings, things like sexism are like over
Speaker 1: here and like separate from science because those are facts
Speaker 1: and that's logic and they don't belong together. And that
Speaker 1: sentiment is also i mean almost reflected in this Wired article.
Speaker 1: Um So I'm kind of wondering what your responses when
Speaker 1: people if when people say, like sex talking about sexism
Speaker 1: has no place in science communication. We should be talking
Speaker 1: about science, right. I love the story of how in
Speaker 1: the US there was you know, federally funded They were
Speaker 1: federally funded experiments and studies set out to prove that
Speaker 1: certain races were inferior to other races, namely the Caucasian race. Right,
Speaker 1: So there were scientists who were taking skulls of different
Speaker 1: races of human beings, and they were filling the skulls
Speaker 1: with beings or pas or something so that they could
Speaker 1: measure the volume and say, okay, see this one has
Speaker 1: a bigger volume of the skull, so therefore their brain
Speaker 1: is bigger so therefore they're smarter, therefore their better of
Speaker 1: a race. Right. Um, what they didn't say is that
Speaker 1: there and they literally believed that this was an objective
Speaker 1: experience experiment. And then you realize, well, they used smaller
Speaker 1: bodied skulls for the women and for the other races,
Speaker 1: and they preferentially selected skulls from larger bodied people to
Speaker 1: represent the Caucasian race. And then you want to tell
Speaker 1: me that science is objective and you know scientists don't
Speaker 1: bring their own biases into it. I mean, it's absolutely true,
Speaker 1: and that's that wasn't that long ago. And this is
Speaker 1: again federally funded experiments to do this, so it was
Speaker 1: like legitimate science. And and I just I always point
Speaker 1: that out, like you can't, you can't just use science
Speaker 1: as you know, you're the arbiter of truth when it's
Speaker 1: human beings who are conducting the science, human beings who
Speaker 1: grow up with all these biases that wekend in societies.
Speaker 1: It goes back to gatekeeping. Not only who are the
Speaker 1: journalists covering the press releases and and the new discoveries,
Speaker 1: but also who is doing the experiments. And so I
Speaker 1: think it's easy for a lot of people white guys
Speaker 1: and science. Uh to dismiss the white male scientists. But
Speaker 1: it's easy for a lot of people to poo pooh
Speaker 1: the idea that we need more women or people of
Speaker 1: color or trans scientists. Um, because you know why, why,
Speaker 1: it's just science. It's objective. But you know, what do
Speaker 1: people approach you with these thoughts and ideas and what
Speaker 1: do you tell them? How can diversity possibly make science
Speaker 1: any better? Facts? Or that's a microscope? Right? So I
Speaker 1: think an interesting idea is that diversity initiatives have been
Speaker 1: around since like the seventies, right. I mean they looked
Speaker 1: around and they're like, there are only white dudes in
Speaker 1: science or and you know other areas as well. And
Speaker 1: the fact is, you know, when you look at it today,
Speaker 1: those um, those initiatives have largely benefited white women because
Speaker 1: you know, you have a bunch of white dudes and
Speaker 1: you tell them you have to diversify, and they're like, okay,
Speaker 1: we'll take women, but that means just white women, right. Um.
Speaker 1: So it's just sort of like we just have to
Speaker 1: do the bare minimum here. We can't include women of color,
Speaker 1: we can't include you know, trends people or gay people,
Speaker 1: because it's just like, if we're gonna include anyone, let's
Speaker 1: at least keep the raised homogeneous or whatever. So, UM,
Speaker 1: I just think, you know, people who don't understand that, um,
Speaker 1: it's it's really hard to get them to see otherwise.
Speaker 1: But UM, I like to bring that example up, as
Speaker 1: you know, an example of it's it's just not that's
Speaker 1: just not the way it works. Yeah, I mean there
Speaker 1: was even uh I don't know when it was reported
Speaker 1: but not long ago in New York Times on how
Speaker 1: there is finally being attention paid to all of the
Speaker 1: mice and lab rats, which are usually like the human analogs.
Speaker 1: You know, so many studies are conducted on them, but
Speaker 1: they're almost exclusively male rats because of the assumption but
Speaker 1: females not all rats, not all rats or mice, you know,
Speaker 1: under the assumption and that those female rats and their
Speaker 1: own lady brains, this hysterical rat euter, yes, but legitimately
Speaker 1: that their hormones would throw off studies. And we've seen
Speaker 1: the same kind of thing in human studies, especially for
Speaker 1: biomedical research. I would just like to insert that the
Speaker 1: female viagra you guys read about how it was tested
Speaker 1: on men, I would like to just insert that as
Speaker 1: an example, continue please, Now I'm just I'm off female,
Speaker 1: but wrat that's on viagra. Um. But there's only in
Speaker 1: the past couple of years been attention to that. And
Speaker 1: I mean things like oh pain medicine huh that impacts
Speaker 1: female bodies different than male bodies. Maybe we need to
Speaker 1: to work on that. And that's incredible. I mean we're
Speaker 1: talking about science, right, but we're still like catching up
Speaker 1: in really really basic ways. But thanks to this kind
Speaker 1: of activism. So who are some of the people that
Speaker 1: we should be following on social media? Besides you? I
Speaker 1: mean we already follow you. People we should be following
Speaker 1: on social media, but also maybe some great hashtags that
Speaker 1: are doing a really good job, particularly good job of
Speaker 1: raising awareness, and maybe just people that we should be
Speaker 1: aware of who are in this community having these conversations.
Speaker 1: That's like a multi layer question, Starry, No, Well, I
Speaker 1: I do want to talk about that because these are
Speaker 1: people who have heavily influenced me and taught me just everything,
Speaker 1: um in the last year. So um. So the first
Speaker 1: person I want to mention is Dr Shonda Prescott Weinstein.
Speaker 1: She's the sixty third black woman to have a PhD
Speaker 1: in astrophysics in the history of the United States, okay,
Speaker 1: and which is just mind blowing that that there's that
Speaker 1: few black women being awarded PhDs um in astronomy. And
Speaker 1: she is just amazing. I mean, she's she's an activist.
Speaker 1: She talks about race and sexism in science. Um, she
Speaker 1: talks about um, you know, hetero sexism, just all kinds
Speaker 1: of things that she's amazing and I just I just
Speaker 1: learned so much from her. And she has a blog actually, UM.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that she was she was
Speaker 1: one of the first people to say this when the
Speaker 1: Jeff Marcity story broke out. She pointed out that maybe
Speaker 1: the only reason that we care about these sexual harassment
Speaker 1: cases is that they affect white women, you know. And
Speaker 1: she talked about how we have a title nine office
Speaker 1: on every university campus in this country. Where's my title
Speaker 1: for office? You know, where um is the office that's
Speaker 1: gonna handle racism on these campuses. And some people might
Speaker 1: be like, well, you know, sexism leads to terrible things.
Speaker 1: It might lead to rape or murder. Um. But actually
Speaker 1: racism does as well, and we're not addressing those things,
Speaker 1: and we're seeing all the violence that comes out of
Speaker 1: racism now with a lot of social media and how
Speaker 1: people have been reporting police brutality and all those things.
Speaker 1: So I think it's just as important. And and she's
Speaker 1: one of the people who's at the forefront of like, hey,
Speaker 1: we need to make this issue intersectional. UM and so
Speaker 1: she has a blog on medium and she talks about
Speaker 1: just all these things that you're gonna learn so much.
Speaker 1: She should definitely follow her UM. Also, Sarah Tuttle is
Speaker 1: an astronomer here in Austin at ut UM and so
Speaker 1: she she's she also talks about sexism from an intersectional
Speaker 1: approach in science. Uh. Jesse Shanahan is a PhD. UH.
Speaker 1: She's a grad student at Wesleyan and she talks about
Speaker 1: all kinds of is ms in science. But she's also
Speaker 1: a huge disability activist, So I learned a lot from
Speaker 1: her UM. As an able bodied person, I feel like
Speaker 1: we just don't see the world the same way and
Speaker 1: we're blind to a lot of things, and that's something
Speaker 1: that's super important. I also want to give a shout
Speaker 1: out to Dr Jedidah Eisler. She's another black woman with
Speaker 1: a PhD and astrophysics from Yale. First black woman from
Speaker 1: Yale to graduate with a PhD in astrophysics, ever, which
Speaker 1: is also an atrocity and an accomplishment at the same time.
Speaker 1: And she has a a monthly vlog it's like a
Speaker 1: Google hangout, and she brings in other women of color
Speaker 1: from science, technology, engineering, mathematics, and she interviews them and
Speaker 1: they talked about great things. So it's been a great
Speaker 1: thing for me and for other women of color and science,
Speaker 1: but I think also just for other people, UM, for visibility.
Speaker 1: If you want to learn about other women who are
Speaker 1: currently scientists and women of color, you should definitely watch
Speaker 1: this Google hangout that she has. It's called banguards STEM
Speaker 1: and she's also on Twitter as well. So you had
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, UM, when we were kind of talking about
Speaker 1: the generational shift UM and the silencing effect and the
Speaker 1: risk of kind of going forward with claims of sexual
Speaker 1: harassment or gender discrimination, racism, etcetera. And now we are seeing,
Speaker 1: you know, so much more conversation, especially through social media
Speaker 1: and Twitter, about that, and I was wondering if there
Speaker 1: is still that risk of backlash or if Twitter and
Speaker 1: technology and kind of the visibility and community building that
Speaker 1: they provide, if that's sort of provided an insulating effect
Speaker 1: to that. So unfortunately, uh, this is a field that
Speaker 1: is very slow to change. So I do think that, um,
Speaker 1: that there is probably retaliation, like there's still fear of retaliation,
Speaker 1: of course, But the more people who come out and
Speaker 1: counter this culture of silence, the easier it is for
Speaker 1: other women behind them and other other people behind them
Speaker 1: who experience all of these isms, UM to come out
Speaker 1: and have a voice for themselves. Um. Killer Miich was
Speaker 1: talking about earlier how he wants to be a voice
Speaker 1: for people who don't have a voice, and I feel
Speaker 1: I feel the same way. I mean, the people, um,
Speaker 1: the women who came out in the Jeff Marcy investigation
Speaker 1: chose to have their names attached to that media piece.
Speaker 1: They chose to have their names attached to that title
Speaker 1: nine of investigation publicly, and they have gotten death threats,
Speaker 1: rape threats, um, and all kinds of you know, horrible
Speaker 1: nous but they've also had you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: support from our community, and so um, you know, their
Speaker 1: brave actions are what you know, empower other women to
Speaker 1: do this, And I think really the only way is
Speaker 1: to talk about it. But I don't fault women who
Speaker 1: don't come board because you know your careers on the line.
Speaker 1: It's easy for me to talk about this knowing that
Speaker 1: I'm leaving research and I don't, you know, none of
Speaker 1: these people have anything over me. And you know, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna get my PhD and then I'm gonna go do
Speaker 1: something else. But when you're staying in that community and
Speaker 1: you need to do your research and you need to
Speaker 1: get recommendation letters, and you need to have people supporting you,
Speaker 1: I can completely understand why they wouldn't come forward with
Speaker 1: those kinds of things. So hopefully this will I mean,
Speaker 1: I know that we're progressing in the right direction. Um,
Speaker 1: hopefully you know, faster rather than slower. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: and oh the irony that science is so slow to change,
Speaker 1: not kind of exactly, I mean, is there What do
Speaker 1: you think it will take though? I mean, obviously it
Speaker 1: will take more than hashtag activism and things like that,
Speaker 1: But what do you think it will take to to
Speaker 1: make it not such a hostile environment for not just women,
Speaker 1: but people of color, disabled people, etcetera. So right now,
Speaker 1: a lot of the young people are taking up these causes.
Speaker 1: I mean, even being outspoken on social media is a
Speaker 1: risky move if you're a young person. You know, if
Speaker 1: you're a post doc or like a grad student and
Speaker 1: people find out about it, you might not have a
Speaker 1: good career. So I think, honestly, the onus is on
Speaker 1: the professors, people with power, people who have tenure UM
Speaker 1: and and really I think the white men in this
Speaker 1: profession if they want to see astronomy going forward UM
Speaker 1: and being successful and having more discoveries and everything, than
Speaker 1: really the onus is on them to start these changes
Speaker 1: to you know, educate yourself about the issues and about
Speaker 1: who's getting left behind, and you know, trying to make
Speaker 1: a change. And I actually see that happening now because
Speaker 1: more people are talking about and it's more visible. You know,
Speaker 1: departments are coming under fire. University of California, Berkeley is
Speaker 1: definitely under fire. UM. People are starting to pay attention
Speaker 1: to save their own asses UM. And I think it's
Speaker 1: it's really going to take those people in the higher
Speaker 1: places because they're the ones with the power, right, and
Speaker 1: the younger people are going to continue to change things
Speaker 1: and and and and push through. But as long as
Speaker 1: those people remain in power and want to do nothing
Speaker 1: about it, then that's change is going to be so slow.
Speaker 1: It'll happen still eventually, but it'll just be too slow.
Speaker 1: So what can we non scientists do, you know, like,
Speaker 1: because it affects us at some point, it trickles down
Speaker 1: to all of us absolutely. I mean, you know, there's
Speaker 1: this image that that society has about what a scientist
Speaker 1: looks like, and that image gets passed around through media, um,
Speaker 1: and it gets passed down to younger children who then
Speaker 1: don't believe that they can be a scientist because they
Speaker 1: don't they're not they don't play the part, right, UM.
Speaker 1: So I think talking about it and like sharing this
Speaker 1: information supporting the people who are on the bad side
Speaker 1: of this, you know, the victims of the sexual harassment. UM.
Speaker 1: If you talk about it on your own social media
Speaker 1: pages with these hashtags, it gets the information out there.
Speaker 1: And know these scientists who are committing these crimes really
Speaker 1: because if it's sexual assault, it's a crime. And there
Speaker 1: you know, that's another story. But these people are paid
Speaker 1: by your tax dollars. The money that comes at that
Speaker 1: pays these professors comes largely from the big agencies like
Speaker 1: the National Science Foundation NASA UM, the National Institution of
Speaker 1: Health UM, the Department of Energy. This is all taxpayer
Speaker 1: money and so we should all care about this and
Speaker 1: try to spread this information so that future generations don't
Speaker 1: have to live with this. Absolutely who is there? Is
Speaker 1: there anything else that you want our audience to know
Speaker 1: about you or your efforts and where we go ye
Speaker 1: and also tell them me on how to find you. Okay? Well, um,
Speaker 1: my Twitter handle is at jazz jazz toronomy so j
Speaker 1: A z z t R O n O M y.
Speaker 1: I can actually spell out this industry. UM, so you
Speaker 1: can follow me and I post a lout on Twitter
Speaker 1: and everything. UM. But uh, I I try to do
Speaker 1: as much as I can. So, I mean, I I'm
Speaker 1: one person, but as much as I can, I I
Speaker 1: like to try to support people like me because honestly,
Speaker 1: the motivation that I have is that I went through
Speaker 1: this really hard thing that not a lot of people,
Speaker 1: I mean ninety percent of people in this country will
Speaker 1: never get a graduated you will never get a pH
Speaker 1: and that was that was really hard for me. So
Speaker 1: I knew what it was like and I didn't want
Speaker 1: anybody else to go through that. So I turned around
Speaker 1: and I started um a graduate mentoring program and my
Speaker 1: just in my department UM where like older grad students
Speaker 1: will mentor younger grad or incoming grad students. And right
Speaker 1: now we're seeing, ironically a lot of problems come up
Speaker 1: right and um, you know people are going like where,
Speaker 1: you know, why are we having all these problems now?
Speaker 1: And I'm going, you know, these problems existed before, but
Speaker 1: they flew under the radar, and you know, people were
Speaker 1: suffering silently. But now that we have something in this
Speaker 1: department where students can act stually talk to someone who
Speaker 1: will understand where they're coming from, that's why these problems
Speaker 1: are surfacing. And it's a good sign because it means
Speaker 1: that people are talking about it and now we can
Speaker 1: address those issues. So, UM, I don't know, I want
Speaker 1: to take I want to take that message. I wanna UM.
Speaker 1: I want to reach out to communities of color, people
Speaker 1: who are not represented in science and encourage them to
Speaker 1: go into stem um, which is a double edged sword
Speaker 1: because I'm like funneling them into a system where they might,
Speaker 1: you know, encounter a hostile environment. But I think empowering
Speaker 1: empowering these people too and letting them know like, hey,
Speaker 1: science is just like the rest of the world. There's
Speaker 1: gonna be sexism, there's gonna be racism, there's gonna be
Speaker 1: able is um, you know, um, and letting them know like,
Speaker 1: here's how you empower yourself, here's how you fight that.
Speaker 1: Um you know, don't let anybody tell you that you
Speaker 1: can't do it, because you can. And and having like
Speaker 1: for me getting a PhD, like being an immigrant and
Speaker 1: a woman of color and and getting that far, I
Speaker 1: can turn around and say, you know, I did it
Speaker 1: and you can do it as well. And one last thing,
Speaker 1: since this is stuff MOB never told you, even though
Speaker 1: the name might suggest otherwise, would you like to give
Speaker 1: mom shout out? And one thing that you shouted out
Speaker 1: and your ted talk was how your mom kind of
Speaker 1: accidentally raised you as a scientist. I was just wondering
Speaker 1: if you could talk a little bit about that because
Speaker 1: I love that story so much. Yes, oh my gosh. Okay,
Speaker 1: So a lot of you may not know this, but
Speaker 1: like Latino culture is just the mother is basically she's
Speaker 1: like the boss of the house. And um, Latin women
Speaker 1: are just so empowered. Um. And my mom raised me
Speaker 1: that way. She was, you know, really tough and everything,
Speaker 1: but she raised me to believe that I could really
Speaker 1: do anything. And uh, and you know, when I guess
Speaker 1: I tell I'll tell the story again. But when I
Speaker 1: was young, I would, um, even really like three or
Speaker 1: four years old, my mom would tell me like, go
Speaker 1: clean your room or you know, go tidy this up
Speaker 1: or something, and I wouldn't do literally anything until she
Speaker 1: would sit down and explain to me why I had
Speaker 1: to do it and um. And sometimes she would cry,
Speaker 1: like she's told me, Like I would cry because as
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here like for an hour, you know, arguing
Speaker 1: with a three year old about why she should clean
Speaker 1: her room. But the thing is, you know, she sat
Speaker 1: down and she did that. She knew that, like I mean,
Speaker 1: she knew from experience that grounding me wasn't going to
Speaker 1: do anything. I was still not going to follow her
Speaker 1: orders or whatever. Um, So she did what she knew
Speaker 1: worked for me. A lot of parents wouldn't have done that,
Speaker 1: you know. I you know, I know a lot of
Speaker 1: people who would not have done that. And I just
Speaker 1: think that her reinforcing that, like, my questions were important
Speaker 1: and they deserve to be validated. And you know, I
Speaker 1: didn't have to take no for an answer. I didn't
Speaker 1: have to just be satisfied with any answer that people
Speaker 1: wanted to tell me, you know, that really that's what
Speaker 1: science is. Science is, you know, having a question and
Speaker 1: just pursuing it and failing and trying again until you
Speaker 1: get the right answer. And so I think that really
Speaker 1: is one of the biggest reasons that I'm a scientist today. Yes,
Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you and thanks Nicole's mom. Thanks mom. Well, Nicole,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. We're really
Speaker 1: excited that you're doing what you're doing. We're so excited
Speaker 1: to see what you do in the future, and we're
Speaker 1: really glad you're in Atlanta because we're gonna hang out.
Speaker 1: She's so funny. Let's give it up for Nicole. So
Speaker 1: there you have it, folks. Thanks so much to everyone
Speaker 1: who came to the show. Huge thanks to Nicole Cabrera,
Speaker 1: who I am convinced is going to change the world. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Nicole is amazing, and we're as we said in the show,
Speaker 1: we're super excited to see where she takes her science
Speaker 1: education career, and we're hoping that we'll be able to
Speaker 1: take our live show to other places at some point.
Speaker 1: I know that we've talked about it and longingly posted
Speaker 1: on social about where we should go if we were
Speaker 1: to have a live show so it is top of
Speaker 1: mind for us, because again, we love meeting you all,
Speaker 1: whether it's for lady drinks like we've been doing in
Speaker 1: some cities, or live show. So if you are a
Speaker 1: group and can bring us to your city, or if
Speaker 1: you run a venue and can bring us to your city,
Speaker 1: let us know, see and see you're down to travel,
Speaker 1: So drop us a line of mom stuff at how
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. And of course we also want
Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on everything we talked about in
Speaker 1: that live show on sexism and science communications. So mom
Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com again is our
Speaker 1: email address. You can also tweet us at mom Stuff
Speaker 1: podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple
Speaker 1: of messages this year with you. Right now. Well, I
Speaker 1: have a letter here from Cecilia in response to our
Speaker 1: Adult Coloring Books episode, which we have received so many
Speaker 1: emails about you guys really like your coloring, which I
Speaker 1: kind of love. Um. Okay, so Cecilia says, as someone
Speaker 1: who does not partake in a coloring now, I did
Speaker 1: not anticipate that I would relate so much to the episode,
Speaker 1: but I do. So here goes My mom began teaching
Speaker 1: art in the early seventies and subsequently built her career
Speaker 1: on researching and teaching about the history and practices of
Speaker 1: art education. So, of course, my brother and I grew
Speaker 1: up on Susan Striker's anti coloring books. I remember feeling
Speaker 1: frustrated by the blank spaces, and I often simply colored
Speaker 1: in the illustrated vignettes and moved on to the next page.
Speaker 1: I cherished the single normal coloring book. I owned a
Speaker 1: Barbie Fashion's book, but I spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: drawing my own fashion models as well, so I kind
Speaker 1: of loathed them. In retrospect, I think the anti coloring
Speaker 1: books were a positive influence on my creative development. I
Speaker 1: believe that drawing versus coloring improves visual literacy and helps
Speaker 1: kids build confidence. Through my own experience teaching art, I
Speaker 1: find that most kids show more joy and higher self
Speaker 1: esteem after creating self directed works of art as opposed
Speaker 1: to completing a predetermined project the traced hand turkey for example.
Speaker 1: Why have we got to hate on the traced hand turkey?
Speaker 1: I still draw those, She goes on to say, as
Speaker 1: for adults, I agree that coloring in between the lines
Speaker 1: it is probably more of a sedative than a stimulant
Speaker 1: in college, where I earned my b f A, my
Speaker 1: friends and I would destress at night by smoking weed
Speaker 1: and coloring in our dorm. Well, I imagine that I
Speaker 1: would still enjoy this activity today. I feel obligated to
Speaker 1: put any free creative energy into making art, a practice
Speaker 1: that always suffers because of my job and other responsibilities.
Speaker 1: Thanks again for the episode and for the welcome distraction
Speaker 1: your show brings to my hours working as an art
Speaker 1: fram er. Well, thank you, Cecilia. Well, I've got a
Speaker 1: let her here from Maryland, who is all about some
Speaker 1: adult coloring books, which Caroline whenever I hear the phrase
Speaker 1: adult coloring books, that does sound like something naughty. Oh
Speaker 1: for sure, I without a doubt. Um, But Marylyn writes,
Speaker 1: I just finished listening to your episode on adult coloring books,
Speaker 1: and I had to roll my eyes a little at
Speaker 1: the fuss over coloring books stunting creativity by being a
Speaker 1: quote mindless activity. As someone who does have other creative
Speaker 1: hobbies like crochet and fiction writing, I can definitely say
Speaker 1: that my coloring books, one of which I was working
Speaker 1: on while listening to the episode, aren't making a creatively
Speaker 1: stagnated robot out of me. Coloring may not be as
Speaker 1: demanding as other pursuits, but I would argue that that's
Speaker 1: what's so great about it. It allows people to exercise
Speaker 1: a simple, low stress creativity without the real or perceived
Speaker 1: pressure to make something perfect. Talking to people with creative
Speaker 1: pursuits like writing or art, one of the most common
Speaker 1: threads you'll find is the anxiety and dissatisfaction over imperfect
Speaker 1: finished products, not that I'm speaking from experience or anything.
Speaker 1: With coloring, you get to exercise the same creative impulse,
Speaker 1: but without fear of the world crashing down around you
Speaker 1: if you color outside the lines, or that shade of
Speaker 1: orange doesn't work as well as you thought it might.
Speaker 1: Coloring is certainly more engaging than a lot of the
Speaker 1: games I play on my tablet to kill time or procrastinate,
Speaker 1: and yet at the same time, it doesn't require me
Speaker 1: to have my brain at one at all times, and
Speaker 1: offers a RESTful and harmless activity to keep my hand
Speaker 1: it's busy while I process the rest of my day.
Speaker 1: As always, great podcasts and I look forward to future episodes,
Speaker 1: some of which I will definitely listen to well. Coloring,
Speaker 1: So thanks so much, Maryland, and thanks to everyone all
Speaker 1: of you who have written about coloring, especially so many
Speaker 1: coloring letters and photos. We love to see your coloring photos,
Speaker 1: um and for all of your other emails mom stuff
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is our email address.
Speaker 1: And to keep up with all of our social media links,
Speaker 1: blog posts, videos and podcasts with our sources so you
Speaker 1: can learn more about sexism and science communication, you should
Speaker 1: head on over to stuff mom Never Told You dot
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