Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You. From how Supports
Speaker 1: dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And today's episode on women in Trucking
Speaker 1: has been requested by a number of listeners. It has. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we we I don't know if you guys are in cahoots.
Speaker 1: We've gotten a couple of emails from guys trucker guys
Speaker 1: trucker guy, requesting that we tackle this issue of basically
Speaker 1: like where where are the ladies in trucking? So, for instance,
Speaker 1: we wanted to share a letter from listener Greg, who
Speaker 1: wrote to us, I'm an old, broke down, worn out trucker.
Speaker 1: I wanted to use my time behind the wheel more
Speaker 1: productively and I found your podcast. I've really appreciated your
Speaker 1: feminist viewpoint, as I don't really get the chance to
Speaker 1: see things from a female perspective very often. I work
Speaker 1: in an industry that, as I'm sure you are aware,
Speaker 1: is dominated by men, and as I was listening to
Speaker 1: your podcast on women and visual effects, it made me
Speaker 1: curious to hear your take on women and trucking. The
Speaker 1: trucking industry is essential to the country, yet women are
Speaker 1: severely underrepresented among the ranks of professional drivers. Of course,
Speaker 1: women are certainly capable of performing the job, but it's
Speaker 1: extremely difficult for women to enter the industry, and the
Speaker 1: ones that do often face sexism that could be compared
Speaker 1: to the construction industry. So before we go on, Greg
Speaker 1: and all of the other truckers listening to this podcast,
Speaker 1: this episode is for you and Greg, by the way,
Speaker 1: you're spot on across the board. And also, I'm just
Speaker 1: so excited to imagine Greg finding stuff I've never told
Speaker 1: you and like listening to us like wax feminism as
Speaker 1: he's driving down the road. This is really fun to
Speaker 1: think about. Yeah, and we we love the idea and
Speaker 1: we love the sign justestion. And I don't think though
Speaker 1: that we quite expected the picture to be so grim
Speaker 1: when we first dive into research. Yeah, and it's and
Speaker 1: it's not grim in the way that you might expect.
Speaker 1: But we'll get into that. Fasten your seatbelt, folks, because
Speaker 1: we will get into that um later on. But first
Speaker 1: we want to just give you an overview of the
Speaker 1: trucking industry because I mean, again, Greg, you're so right
Speaker 1: across the board. I mean, it's true that the trucking
Speaker 1: industry is so essential to the country, but there are
Speaker 1: very few women, not surprisingly so there are around two
Speaker 1: thousand female truckers on the road and that sounds like
Speaker 1: a lot, sure, but that makes up just six percent
Speaker 1: of all truck drivers, whereas there are three million fellas
Speaker 1: behind the wheel. Yeah, and that six percent figure for
Speaker 1: women is actually up slightly from four point six percent
Speaker 1: according to the group Women in Trucking, and it's lower
Speaker 1: in the UK. Hey, UK listeners, women make up just
Speaker 1: one point two percent of truckers over in the UK,
Speaker 1: and we didn't find that much solid demographic information on
Speaker 1: women and trucking. But over at the site Real Women Trucking,
Speaker 1: which is run by trucker named Desiree, she says that
Speaker 1: most women who get into it are between thirty nine
Speaker 1: and fifty nine years old, which I thought was really interesting.
Speaker 1: But it's not necessarily a dream job. Um Erica are Vizoo,
Speaker 1: who's an admission supervisor at the dukes In School of Trucking,
Speaker 1: told NPR quote, a lot of them are single women
Speaker 1: trying to support their families, are just trying to help
Speaker 1: their partner because of the economy and everything, just to survive. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean we read a lot too, and this is
Speaker 1: in comments, and I know, you know the refrain like
Speaker 1: never read the comments, But the comments on articles about
Speaker 1: women and trucking are actually pretty enlightening for the most part.
Speaker 1: Um because and I say that because I'm so far
Speaker 1: removed from this industry and so it's fascinating to get
Speaker 1: first person accounts. But a lot of the comments talk
Speaker 1: about how women who not all women, but a lot
Speaker 1: of the women who come to trucking, especially those who
Speaker 1: come later in life, are coming out of really bad
Speaker 1: circumstances because it's a relatively well paying job for a
Speaker 1: lot of women who have either maybe just gotten out
Speaker 1: of prison, maybe women who have experienced homelessness. And not
Speaker 1: that that's not true for some of the guys too,
Speaker 1: but trucking presents sort of a unique and positive opportunity
Speaker 1: for a lot of people. Yeah, I mean, it's a lifeline,
Speaker 1: especially for g I s who have just come home.
Speaker 1: Um and again, it is a crucial industry to all
Speaker 1: of our day to day lives that we probably do
Speaker 1: not think about very often because imagine, truckers move nine
Speaker 1: point two billion tons of freight or of all us
Speaker 1: fright every year, and there still aren't enough truck drivers.
Speaker 1: The American Trucking Association estimates that we're about thirty thousand
Speaker 1: drivers short already, and by I think it's that number
Speaker 1: will probably be up to two hundred thousand if recruitment
Speaker 1: doesn't pick up. Yeah, and so, as we've seen in
Speaker 1: many an industry over our national history, people turned to
Speaker 1: women to fill these traditionally male dominated roles, and anecdotally
Speaker 1: it's working. Um, there are a lot of people in
Speaker 1: the industry who say that more women are getting their
Speaker 1: trucking licenses and that the work environment is female friendlier
Speaker 1: than ever before. Although, as we will continue to discuss,
Speaker 1: everything's relative, that's not saying all that much. Yeah. Ellen Voy,
Speaker 1: who heads up the Women in Trucking Association that we've cited,
Speaker 1: said that if we double the percentage of women working
Speaker 1: in the trucking industry, we could solve the immediate qualified
Speaker 1: driver shortage, which saying quite a lot. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: but keep in mind, listeners, as we're talking about this
Speaker 1: inciting sources that there is um a little bit of
Speaker 1: conflict between women in trucking and real women trucking because
Speaker 1: real women trucking was started to you know, give firsthand
Speaker 1: insight into what it's like being a woman in the
Speaker 1: trucking industry, and the woman who started it often talks
Speaker 1: about how women in trucking, which is more organized. Um,
Speaker 1: it's a bigger organization. It's more geared toward recruitment, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it has more industry connections and so real women
Speaker 1: trucking often claims that women in trucking is a little
Speaker 1: bit misleading and glosses over some of the details about, um,
Speaker 1: what life is like on the road. Um, but women
Speaker 1: are also a safer bet for trucking, come Bennie. Um.
Speaker 1: Derek Leathers, who's the CEO of Werner Enterprises, told Bloomberg
Speaker 1: that women drivers performed better than men across the board.
Speaker 1: They tend to have fewer accidents, they have better inspections
Speaker 1: and fewer compliance issues. Yeah. And VOI who we decided,
Speaker 1: also told the BBC that women are so much better
Speaker 1: with the customers and the paperwork in the equipment with
Speaker 1: what with our tiny hands. Well, there's the equipment in
Speaker 1: there too. I know she had just stopped at paperwork,
Speaker 1: it would have been like Ellen, But why is there
Speaker 1: this scarcity of women in trucking? Well, I mean if
Speaker 1: from the get go it's major job requirements like life
Speaker 1: on the open road, hauling freight, even just driving are
Speaker 1: all masculine gendered activities, though of course some women have
Speaker 1: gotten behind the wheel anyway. Yeah, and this is the
Speaker 1: part of the podcast where we have to talk about trailblazers. Yes,
Speaker 1: let's do it, and and almost literally trailblazers. They were
Speaker 1: the first people on these trails, sometimes blazing them, blazing,
Speaker 1: blazing them. So before there was truck driving, you had
Speaker 1: to have wagon driving. And so during the Western expansion
Speaker 1: in this country, wives would typically take the reins so
Speaker 1: that their husbands could sit on the back or in
Speaker 1: the passenger seat with a gun. This is where we
Speaker 1: get the term writing shotgun. You're welcome. I know, I
Speaker 1: didn't know that before we was searching for this episode. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I never I yelled shotgun a lot in high school.
Speaker 1: I never do, still do. Yeah. I never understood where
Speaker 1: it came from, never even really thought about it. And
Speaker 1: it's because of this, because women were holding the reins
Speaker 1: while husband carried a shotgun, literally writing shotgun. Um. And
Speaker 1: at this point we have to talk about Mary Fields,
Speaker 1: who was a freed slave, who is better known by
Speaker 1: her nickname Stagecoach Mary. She drove six horses and a
Speaker 1: mule as a US Postal Services, second female higher and
Speaker 1: the first African and Eric and postal worker in the US.
Speaker 1: And that happened in when PS she was sixty. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she worked through her seventies in this job and was frequent.
Speaker 1: She even worked. She was like worked as as protection
Speaker 1: for nuns. Yeah. Like, she's a fascinating, fascinating figure. Um.
Speaker 1: But you can consider her an early truck driver. Uh.
Speaker 1: During World War One though, big old leap uh. In
Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen, Luella Bates became one of the first female
Speaker 1: commercial truck drivers, and certainly it's most well known. So
Speaker 1: if you look at histories of commercial truck driving, Louella
Speaker 1: Bates is usually cited as the very first lady. And
Speaker 1: she was hired by Wisconsin's four wheel drive factory along
Speaker 1: with other women to fill positions left by men at war.
Speaker 1: So again a similar theme that we've heard before on
Speaker 1: the podcast. And I love I love her story because
Speaker 1: Bates took a shine to test driving and demonstrating the
Speaker 1: trucks and four wheel drive was like, hmm, we could
Speaker 1: make her the face of our company. So they sent
Speaker 1: her on this cross country marketing tour, and of course
Speaker 1: the press described her as quote a pretty and petite
Speaker 1: woman pilot. Well, yeah, because as you know, the more
Speaker 1: things change, the more they stay the same. And you
Speaker 1: apparently cannot have an article about a woman in a
Speaker 1: male dominated job that doesn't discuss her appearance. And like
Speaker 1: there's always this effort on the part of writers, it
Speaker 1: seems to assure readers that someone is still feminine, like,
Speaker 1: don't worry, she's still pretty. And we see that in
Speaker 1: coverage through today, which is a little bit mind boggling up,
Speaker 1: like relax, okay, Like it's fine, I don't care what
Speaker 1: she looks like. I don't care if she thinks her
Speaker 1: nails it's cool. Yeah, I don't care. But I mean,
Speaker 1: and it's something you hear echoed though in um the
Speaker 1: actual end Street. There was an article we read that
Speaker 1: was interviewing women truckers in the UK, and one woman
Speaker 1: was saying that she always gets comments from other guys
Speaker 1: being like, oh, I can't believe you're straight. Like there's
Speaker 1: all of these preconceived notions about what a trucker is
Speaker 1: supposed to look like. A but then what a lady
Speaker 1: trucker is supposed to be. And so I just I
Speaker 1: want to tell everybody, like relax. I want to borrow
Speaker 1: um Holly from stuff in this in history costs like
Speaker 1: be cool, wand like everybody be cool. It doesn't matter
Speaker 1: what a human looks like if they are doing the
Speaker 1: job that they want to do. Like, just relax, everybody,
Speaker 1: Caroline says, relaxed t shirts. Yeah, exactly that. Um. But
Speaker 1: if we hop back to the nineteen forties, Rusty Dow
Speaker 1: became the first woman to drive the Alaska Highway and
Speaker 1: she was one tough gal. Dal had worked as a
Speaker 1: truck driver in California and then ended up operating her
Speaker 1: own trucking and transfer service. And apparently she's a big deal.
Speaker 1: She has like her own page on like Alaska's history website. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, she drove a ten wheel student Baker with
Speaker 1: bald tires down what is a only a quote unquote highway,
Speaker 1: like whatever highway you're on going to work. It wasn't
Speaker 1: that like it was the wilderness. And she talked about
Speaker 1: how she overheard some dude truckers saying, oh, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: if they ever make this trail easy enough for women
Speaker 1: to travel like we know it'll be time to to
Speaker 1: find another job, to move on. So patronizing. Um. But
Speaker 1: today though, the industry is on the hunt for more
Speaker 1: women like Luella Bates. And here's the big industry pitch
Speaker 1: to women. The big thing that they often advertise is
Speaker 1: how women you can make money, money, money, So in
Speaker 1: pretty much any trucking story you read, it will mention
Speaker 1: how thirty eight thousand is the media and pay and
Speaker 1: there are long haul truckers who can pull in up
Speaker 1: to seventy dollars a year, and many spokespeople insist that
Speaker 1: truckers can start ranking in that cash and only a
Speaker 1: few weeks, which sounds great, sounds amazing. Yeah, why are
Speaker 1: we podcasting? I have no idea can be podcasts from
Speaker 1: a truck? I think so. And of course they also
Speaker 1: tell the fact that you are paid by the mile
Speaker 1: or by the load, so that there's no gender specific
Speaker 1: wage gap. If there's a gap, it's because you're not
Speaker 1: driving as much as others, which of course will come
Speaker 1: into play when we talk about retaliation by companies. But anyway,
Speaker 1: I don't want to give too many spoilers away. Of course,
Speaker 1: a lot of companies also tell that the job is
Speaker 1: physically easier than ever before. You've got uh technological innovations
Speaker 1: power steering, automatic transmissions. You've got people trying to make
Speaker 1: sleeper cabs more comfortable and ergonomic so it can accommodate
Speaker 1: all types of body sizes. Um And and that includes
Speaker 1: making driver's seats even women friendly to accommodate smaller frames.
Speaker 1: And one aspect of a job that's often advertised specifically
Speaker 1: to women is how you can haul what's called no
Speaker 1: touch cargo that doesn't demand any heavy lifting whatsoever. And
Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned, these are improvements for everyone.
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely yeah, um And trucking companies are making intentional
Speaker 1: changes to attract women, not just the technological innovations for
Speaker 1: the trucks themselves. They're trying to clean up truck stops.
Speaker 1: They're actually putting showers in the women's bathrooms at truck
Speaker 1: stops because for a long time there were only showers
Speaker 1: in the men's bathrooms. So I'm sure that was very welcoming. Uh,
Speaker 1: Offering guaranteed home time because you were on the road
Speaker 1: a lot, not surprisingly, and also just directly marketing to
Speaker 1: potential women with messages of freedom, seeing the country. Your
Speaker 1: truck is your home and your office. You can be
Speaker 1: the mistress of your own mobile domain. All of this
Speaker 1: sounds fantastic, it does what could possibly go wrong? So
Speaker 1: the thing as regardless of who you are, man, woman, young, old,
Speaker 1: driving a truck, especially long haul, is tiring, it's dangerous.
Speaker 1: It's often cited as one of the top ten miss
Speaker 1: dangerous occupations in the world. And it's lonely and underpaid. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think fourteen hour days and the fact
Speaker 1: that trucking accidents account for twelve percent of all work
Speaker 1: related deaths in the US, and there's been a huge
Speaker 1: issue of that underpaid aspect. And I mean you are
Speaker 1: working on a strict schedule, so you might be driving
Speaker 1: for these long stretches at a time. I mean, there
Speaker 1: are regulations as to I think fourteen hours is the max.
Speaker 1: Truckers listening, correct me if I'm wrong. Um. But there's
Speaker 1: also no unionization, and so these truckers have little power
Speaker 1: to fight for at our compensation because they're doing such
Speaker 1: important work. That's like the you know, the foundation of
Speaker 1: a lot of our economy. Yeah, exactly. And Desiree would
Speaker 1: who we cited earlier as the founder of real women.
Speaker 1: Trucking does work to highlight these issues, because you know,
Speaker 1: if you definitely want to be a trucker or you're
Speaker 1: just thinking about it, she believes, and I agree with that,
Speaker 1: you should know the risks and rewards. And she points
Speaker 1: out with that whole underpaid thing, that there is a
Speaker 1: lot of unpaid labor that goes into being a trucker,
Speaker 1: since you're only paid per mile or per load when
Speaker 1: you're driving, so you've got time spent standing on the
Speaker 1: dock to count freight. You might end up being detained
Speaker 1: at a shipper receiver for hours past your appointment, and
Speaker 1: you've got to spend time climbing up inside that trailer
Speaker 1: to clean them out before you load them up. And
Speaker 1: there's also the issue with local jobs, which are the
Speaker 1: ones that are often guaranteed, involving a lot more unpaid work,
Speaker 1: according to Desiree would at least than long haul. And
Speaker 1: then beyond that, there's the issue of no industry wide
Speaker 1: training standards, which means some trucking schools will exploit students
Speaker 1: with excessive team driving and try to lock them into
Speaker 1: lease purchase deals for a truck, landing them in debt.
Speaker 1: So you have to pay your tuition to even get
Speaker 1: into the school so you can get a trucking license,
Speaker 1: and some of these schools will try to get you
Speaker 1: to you know, lock you into this lease, and if
Speaker 1: you even make it out of the school, as we'll
Speaker 1: talk about in just a second, um so before you're
Speaker 1: even making any money, you're spending a lot of money sometimes.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is just would I putting this information
Speaker 1: out there just as a buyer beware, like, study your
Speaker 1: school before you sign up for it. And she also
Speaker 1: points out that you're generally not going to be making
Speaker 1: that forty k right out of the gate. You're probably
Speaker 1: more likely to earn about eighteen to thirty seven thousand
Speaker 1: when you first become a trucker, and many women behind
Speaker 1: the wheel often confront gender stereotypes and ridicule and even
Speaker 1: harassment as a part of the job as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, we've already talked about how it seems like
Speaker 1: every article has to mention the appearance and like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, you can't be a driver because you're wearing
Speaker 1: a scart. But there's also all of these gender assumptions
Speaker 1: that krist and I have talked about in previous STEM
Speaker 1: episodes about like, oh, well, you're a woman, so you
Speaker 1: probably didn't play with legos enough, so you have no
Speaker 1: spatial reasoning skills, you can't drive, and you're probably not
Speaker 1: strong enough to do any of this work. And of
Speaker 1: course that's all a bunch of huey. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it was to the point that Um, in an article
Speaker 1: over the BBC Shamim Aktar, whose Pakistan's only female professional
Speaker 1: truck driver, she said that she basically has to divorce
Speaker 1: herself from her womanhood in order to do this job. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my eyes got so wide when I read that, because
Speaker 1: she was essentially saying, Um, you know, I pray that
Speaker 1: women who want to stay home can afford to stay home,
Speaker 1: because I know that when I'm on the road, I
Speaker 1: have to kill the woman inside of me. And you're like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, Like that goes against kind of everything
Speaker 1: that we preach in terms of like be who you are,
Speaker 1: like be a proud lady if that's who you are,
Speaker 1: even if you're a trucker, or because you're a trucker,
Speaker 1: like you know, be authentically yourself. And um, Shamim Aktar
Speaker 1: definitely has a different coping mechanism for facing the type
Speaker 1: of harassment that comes along with being a lady trucker
Speaker 1: in Pakistan. Yeah, I mean, and of course a lot
Speaker 1: of women truckers just I mean, the stereotyping. They just
Speaker 1: kind of have to let it roll off their backs,
Speaker 1: but understandably it can wear you down a bit, and
Speaker 1: men and women arelike. Turnover in the industry is huge.
Speaker 1: The American Trucking Association in celebrated a record low of
Speaker 1: eight percent annual turn up. Mind blown. And the more
Speaker 1: frequent statu you see is a d which, in case
Speaker 1: you're not sure what a hundred percent turnover means, it
Speaker 1: means that everyone is leaving. Responding to this discussion, one
Speaker 1: NPR commenter said, well, consider the pay and the fact
Speaker 1: that you're on the road, away from home and family
Speaker 1: for weeks and months at a time, living out of
Speaker 1: the truck, eating on the road, not working a set schedule,
Speaker 1: but available for work at any hour of the day
Speaker 1: or night in any weather, and should I add sleep deprived.
Speaker 1: And he goes on to say, it's not just a job,
Speaker 1: but a lifestyle, and it's not suitable for most people.
Speaker 1: Like and he's not talking gender, He's like talking whoever
Speaker 1: you are. It might not be your kind of work. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I forget the exact source, but I was reading an
Speaker 1: article about both the psychological and physical told and druck driving,
Speaker 1: especially long haul truck driving takes, because I mean, think
Speaker 1: about if you have a desk job, how often we're told,
Speaker 1: you know, you make sure you stand up. Sitting is killing,
Speaker 1: Sitting is killing you stand up every hour. If you're
Speaker 1: a trucker, you can't do that. You are sitting in
Speaker 1: that fixed position for hours on end, and sometimes by yourself.
Speaker 1: Although I am hartened to know that we are offering
Speaker 1: at least some podcast company to truckers out there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and there are people who drive in teams. There are
Speaker 1: lots of husband and wife teams out there, which I
Speaker 1: didn't realize, But so that could at least let you
Speaker 1: switch off and keep driving. But more often than not,
Speaker 1: you're still driving that twelve hour shift. Let's say so,
Speaker 1: and your spouse or your partner, whoever's in the cab
Speaker 1: with you, will then take the next twelve hour shifts,
Speaker 1: so it's not like you're switching off every hour necessarily. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But then on top of that too, let's say you
Speaker 1: get hungry, it's time for dinner. Uh, if you've noticed
Speaker 1: the immediate food options that are closest to the road
Speaker 1: are usually not all that good for you. I mean,
Speaker 1: you have gas station food you have. I mean even
Speaker 1: if you get like an ice roast chicken and some
Speaker 1: potatoes and carrots, Like, how are you going to eat? Yeah,
Speaker 1: when you know, when you've got to be somewhere in
Speaker 1: a certain set amount of time. Yeah. So um. But
Speaker 1: on top of all of these issues, which I personally
Speaker 1: think the industry needs to take a closer look at
Speaker 1: or at least compensate their employees better. For um, we
Speaker 1: next need to talk about the biggest road hazard for
Speaker 1: women behind the wheel, and we're going to dive into
Speaker 1: that when we get right back from a quick break.
Speaker 1: Now going into this research, Caroline, I mean, I was
Speaker 1: prepared to read about safety and sexual assault issues for
Speaker 1: women on the road, assuming that you're alone, if you
Speaker 1: have to stay at a truck stop, stranger danger, that
Speaker 1: it's it's all happening there after you've gotten the job,
Speaker 1: once you're in the industry. But it turns out that
Speaker 1: the major sexual harassment problem within the trucking industry takes
Speaker 1: place most often during training. Yeah. Yeah, uh so horrified
Speaker 1: to read about this and so glad to be reading
Speaker 1: about it because it seems like nobody wants to talk
Speaker 1: about it, especially I mean especially recruiters. I mean, as
Speaker 1: you can imagine, why would they want to highlight anything
Speaker 1: like that. Um. But we we tend to focus so
Speaker 1: much on sexism in the workplace, on issues of promotion
Speaker 1: and gender wage gaps, and we of course sexual harassment
Speaker 1: and sexual assault. But this, it's the issue is so concentrated.
Speaker 1: It seems like in the trucking industry, UM and sexual
Speaker 1: harassment and we're not just talking like a slap on
Speaker 1: the butt or like hey, hot thing, you want to
Speaker 1: have sex. It's like violent, there's violent sexual harassment going on.
Speaker 1: And it's one of the major complaints that desiree would
Speaker 1: who started real women trucking hears from people. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: what typically happens steering driver training. When you're training to
Speaker 1: get your trucking license, you have to drive in teams
Speaker 1: for a set amount of time, so you'll be driving,
Speaker 1: you know, with someone who's your trainer. But a lot
Speaker 1: of times those trainers are not in official positions of authority,
Speaker 1: so this often leads to sketchy situations that deters some
Speaker 1: women from completing training school, which landsome in debt um
Speaker 1: And we've got to talk about these cases that have now,
Speaker 1: I mean that are already like in court. So in May,
Speaker 1: three lead plaintiffs filed a federal class action suit against
Speaker 1: c r ST Expedited Trucking alleging sexual harassment, assault, and
Speaker 1: rape during training. And according to the lawsuit, this issue
Speaker 1: is so well known and brushed aside in the industry
Speaker 1: that cr ST is jokingly referred to as constantly raping
Speaker 1: student truckers. Yeah, I mean, we read its stories about
Speaker 1: women having to carry knives, tasers, even screw drivers as
Speaker 1: weapons to fend off abusive trainers. Women talking about waking
Speaker 1: up in their bunk in the middle of the nine
Speaker 1: having a naked man on top of them, all sorts
Speaker 1: of insane scenarios. And like Kristen was just saying, you're
Speaker 1: sort of locked in because if you leave the CRST training,
Speaker 1: for instance, early, because of sexual assault or sexual harassment,
Speaker 1: you wind up with tuition debt because so they'll front
Speaker 1: you some tuition money, but they will only forgive that
Speaker 1: debt if you pass your training and then sign an
Speaker 1: eight month commitment after graduating. And so you know, we
Speaker 1: read about all of these women who were saying that,
Speaker 1: you know, I held on by the skin of my
Speaker 1: teeth dealing with all of this horrifying stuff and still
Speaker 1: couldn't make it. I still had to be dropped off
Speaker 1: at a at a terminal or a truck stop and
Speaker 1: ask for help. Yeah, because this, I mean, the training
Speaker 1: environment with the code driving for weeks at a time
Speaker 1: sometimes sets the stage for coercion because trainers might threaten
Speaker 1: not to pass them as a way to, you know,
Speaker 1: try to lure them into unwanted sexual activity. And lawyers
Speaker 1: told Fast Company magazine that when women to CRST due
Speaker 1: to sexual harassment, the company is known to counterclaim to
Speaker 1: recover the cost of training. And then there seems to
Speaker 1: be a particular issue with this trucking company. Um. And
Speaker 1: also I want to give a shout out to and
Speaker 1: really in depth piece over at Jezebel um where a
Speaker 1: lot of this information is coming from as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and coming from that Jezebel article, there was actually a
Speaker 1: case in when CRST lost a lawsuit. Uh, they had
Speaker 1: to pay a driver one point five million dollars because
Speaker 1: she alleged that her trainer, this guy named John Wilson,
Speaker 1: subjected her to constant sexual comments in touching, and that
Speaker 1: her reports of the corporate office were ignored. And we
Speaker 1: hear this over and over again, all the stuff we
Speaker 1: read that it doesn't matter what you've experienced and who
Speaker 1: you tell it tends to get laughed off and just
Speaker 1: brushed under the rug. And again, it does seem to
Speaker 1: be an issue with this particular company, and how it
Speaker 1: has gone on for so long boggles my mind, because
Speaker 1: if we go back to two thousand seven, there was
Speaker 1: a case brought to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission alleging
Speaker 1: seventy two women two at CRST complained of sexual harassment
Speaker 1: and two thousand five alone just in one year, and
Speaker 1: that case was eventually dissolved because of they were like
Speaker 1: bureaucratic steps that weren't taken um. But the thing about
Speaker 1: it is, as Jezebel and Fast Company reported, what typically
Speaker 1: happens to the trainers in these situations is not much.
Speaker 1: They may have their pay docked and they're typically shuffled
Speaker 1: around two different students, like training students labeled as just
Speaker 1: having quote personality problems. Yeah, but you, as the person
Speaker 1: being trained, you don't know who has personality problems, and
Speaker 1: you don't know if it's just like, oh, they don't
Speaker 1: brush their teeth so they're kind of smelly, or if
Speaker 1: it's because they tried to rape someone. And then the
Speaker 1: company is saying, Okay, get in the car, get in
Speaker 1: a truck with this person that you're gonna have to
Speaker 1: sleep on the road with these tiny sleeper cabs, and
Speaker 1: a truck stops and out in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker 1: Go ahead, just go on the open road for a
Speaker 1: few weeks. Yeah. And a lot of women uh in
Speaker 1: these articles brought up the point that many of the
Speaker 1: trainers that they worked with were recently out of prison
Speaker 1: and no, there's nothing wrong with that in a vacuum.
Speaker 1: How However, just like we don't know what these personality
Speaker 1: problems on these charts indicate. If a man went to
Speaker 1: prison for rape or sexual assault and then he becomes
Speaker 1: a trainer and he's locked in a cab with this
Speaker 1: woman for three weeks at a time, that's a dangerous situation.
Speaker 1: It seems like pertinent information you would you would want
Speaker 1: to know as a student. Um And one thing that
Speaker 1: a fast Company and Jezebel pointed out about this is
Speaker 1: how this issue of sexual assault within our Sexual harassment
Speaker 1: within the trucking industry is just it's so stunning to
Speaker 1: the to a greater degree than the issue of sexual
Speaker 1: harassment and Silicon Valley. Yet we hear about Silicon Valley
Speaker 1: and the issues um within the tech industry so much
Speaker 1: more often. And I think it was a writer in
Speaker 1: in Fast Company saying that this is a clear issue
Speaker 1: of class discrimination. Yeah, you know exactly, um. Reflecting on
Speaker 1: the Fast Company stats, the Jezebel writer said, it's hard
Speaker 1: to miss the class element that's likely at work a
Speaker 1: greater interest in the suffering of women in a money flush,
Speaker 1: very public, buzz heavy industry. And although trucking is a
Speaker 1: core part of how the American economy functions, there's a
Speaker 1: general ignorance about how it works, a lack of visibility
Speaker 1: that's benefited some in the trucking industry and hurt many others.
Speaker 1: And of course this isn't to create some kind of
Speaker 1: hierarchy of like which sexual erasma should we care about more,
Speaker 1: But the fact that we aren't more informed about this
Speaker 1: is troubling. And it's even more troubling when you think
Speaker 1: about proposed safety solutions because a lot of times it's
Speaker 1: left up to the women themselves. Carry weapons, install a
Speaker 1: camera in your truck, don't park in the back of
Speaker 1: a parking lot at a truck stop, or walk between trucks.
Speaker 1: That is one piece of advice. Don't walk between trucks,
Speaker 1: And it's also troubling in the context of these super
Speaker 1: strong recruiting efforts that are going on now. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's I'm always an advocate for getting more women into
Speaker 1: positions where they can make a study living, support themselves
Speaker 1: and or their families, feel empowered do what they want
Speaker 1: to do. However, I think it's a little shady when
Speaker 1: you're recruiting strongly a group of people who are at
Speaker 1: an incredible statistical risk of sexual violence. Like we should
Speaker 1: probably be following Desiree Woods lead would of real women
Speaker 1: trucking and trying to inform ourselves and women at large
Speaker 1: about these issues, especially when the question of sexual harassment
Speaker 1: comes up. If you're talking to someone with closer industry ties,
Speaker 1: they're usually like, oh, yeah, I mean, we definitely need
Speaker 1: to fix that problem now now that more women are
Speaker 1: coming into the job, we should absolutely look into it.
Speaker 1: It's like, so it was fine, you know, five ten
Speaker 1: twenty years ago. Like yeah, and and you know, we
Speaker 1: we read a lot. There were again a lot of
Speaker 1: comments on these articles from from women who've been in
Speaker 1: trucking for a while, who said, you know, I experienced
Speaker 1: nothing but politeness. I was treated with respect. You know.
Speaker 1: The worst I ever had to deal with was surprised
Speaker 1: that a woman was doing this job. And to them,
Speaker 1: I say, congratulations, Like that's great. I think it's fabulous
Speaker 1: that you're getting to do this job and make this
Speaker 1: money and not have to deal with this. But that
Speaker 1: positive experience doesn't discount the horrifically negative experience that so
Speaker 1: many women have had. Yeah. I mean, and this is
Speaker 1: one reason why you do see a lot of husband
Speaker 1: wife duos a because then you get to like hang
Speaker 1: out together. But also for safety's sake, I mean, it
Speaker 1: helps to have a guy that you know and trust
Speaker 1: in the truck with you. But I mean it seems
Speaker 1: like if you are a female trucker, you often take
Speaker 1: the good with the bad. Um. This was something reflected
Speaker 1: in a number of comments on a BBC article we read.
Speaker 1: Um Rebecca horsefull Uh said I was a lorry driver
Speaker 1: twenty five years ago and it was really abnormal for
Speaker 1: women to drive trucks. The porn photos all over the
Speaker 1: walls of depots where I picked up or dropped off
Speaker 1: machine parts and cables were incredible because no women ever
Speaker 1: went there. And of course the men were sexist. They
Speaker 1: were always trying to take overloading my wagon or roping
Speaker 1: it for me because they didn't believe I could manage.
Speaker 1: But it added fun sides too, And it's funny because
Speaker 1: that just reminded me of when we talked about pin
Speaker 1: up girls and men having in in any industry, not
Speaker 1: just trekking men having all of these sexy pin up
Speaker 1: calendars all over the place, and how in so many
Speaker 1: other episodes where we've discussed men being so reluctant to
Speaker 1: welcome women into a previously or currently male dominated field
Speaker 1: because it's like, oh wait, you expect me to act
Speaker 1: like a person, like that's crazy. I have to act
Speaker 1: like a normal human being. But I do want to
Speaker 1: end the episode on a positive note because there were
Speaker 1: women reread about, including Desiree Wood, who enjoy trucking. It's
Speaker 1: just clear that it's it regardless of who you are.
Speaker 1: It is a particular, very particular kind of lifestyle that
Speaker 1: not a lot of people are cut out for um.
Speaker 1: But Lindsay Williams commented over the BBC, I've had a
Speaker 1: Class one license for about twenty four years. My childhood
Speaker 1: was spent on the family farm, and I was driving
Speaker 1: a tractor at eleven years old, so I guess that's
Speaker 1: how I started. I drive a big rig and it's
Speaker 1: given me confidence and self esteem, and it gives me
Speaker 1: a chance to see the country and appreciate nature. I've
Speaker 1: earned the respect of my driving colleagues, and it's a
Speaker 1: wonderful feeling to know that I've earned their respect. But
Speaker 1: the bad pits are I hate being in big queues
Speaker 1: of stationary traffic. I hear you like I driving in Atlanta.
Speaker 1: I lose my mind every time I've in traffic. But
Speaker 1: also I watch how the idiots and jerks in Atlanta
Speaker 1: drive around truckers and I can't imagine it, like, Hello,
Speaker 1: they are driving a massive vehicle that weighs a lot.
Speaker 1: You can't just cut them off in Atlanta traffic on
Speaker 1: I seventy five in the middle of rush hour and
Speaker 1: expect your car to be in one piece when you
Speaker 1: do it, Like I feel like I just want a
Speaker 1: bumper sticker. That's like, I love truckers because I will
Speaker 1: always let them in the lane. If they have a
Speaker 1: blinker on, I will let them over. Because so many
Speaker 1: people in Atlanta are so awful to truckers. Uh. And
Speaker 1: yet again, Caroline, we need we need to make those,
Speaker 1: Caroline says, relaxed t shirts so you can, you know,
Speaker 1: throw it, throwing those passenger seats as you're driving by them. Yes,
Speaker 1: I know, everybody, just relax. It doesn't matter what you
Speaker 1: look like in general period set the takeaway. UM. So
Speaker 1: clearly this is an industry looking for a lot of women. Um.
Speaker 1: But it needs to make some major reforms in order
Speaker 1: for that to be sustainable. And and I don't I
Speaker 1: appreciate people like our listener Greg who wrote in wanting
Speaker 1: us to talk about this issue, because people like Ellen
Speaker 1: Boy have pointed out that so many people still just
Speaker 1: like flat out don't want women in the industry and
Speaker 1: don't think they should be there, which I think is
Speaker 1: so it's so ridiculous when there are so many open
Speaker 1: jobs in trucking, women who get into the industry are
Speaker 1: literally taking nothing away from men. They're literally taking nothing
Speaker 1: away because the job is open. There are tens of
Speaker 1: thousands of unfilled trucking jobs. So I I would frankly
Speaker 1: love to hear from our trucker audience. I need, I
Speaker 1: need to know some more firsthand stuff well, and also
Speaker 1: I want to hear from men and women too, because,
Speaker 1: as listener Greg demonstrates, I mean, there are obviously men
Speaker 1: in this industry who are you know, perfectly great people
Speaker 1: who realize that there's a problem and are invested in
Speaker 1: in helping solve it too. So I'm just so curious
Speaker 1: to know because there are so many issues. There's the
Speaker 1: pay issue, there's health, there's you know, um employee organization. Um.
Speaker 1: So I just I'm just curious to hear from from
Speaker 1: folks on the road what it's really like, what it's
Speaker 1: been your experience. Mom Stuff at house stuff works dot
Speaker 1: Com is our email address. You can also tweet us
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or message us on Facebook, and
Speaker 1: we've got a couple of messages to share with you
Speaker 1: when we come right back from a quick break. I
Speaker 1: have a letter here from Sarah in response to our
Speaker 1: miscarriage episode. Sarah writes, I've wanted to write you for
Speaker 1: a while, but when I saw your new podcast pop up,
Speaker 1: I figured now was the time. Time. Last year, my
Speaker 1: baby was still born at thirty eight weeks. Doctors told
Speaker 1: us pretty early on that there were some problems with
Speaker 1: my placenta. I learned that when they tell you you
Speaker 1: have a thick placenta, it's not meant as a compliment. Boops.
Speaker 1: But we ran every test possible and everything always looked fine.
Speaker 1: So we planned for the best and never assumed that
Speaker 1: the worst would happen. Well, it was and still can
Speaker 1: be a deeply sad time. Something that helped me to
Speaker 1: avoid a lot of the guilt and shame you described
Speaker 1: was asking my doctor a lot of questions about why
Speaker 1: it happened. I found that understanding at least some of
Speaker 1: the science steered me away from the magical thinking that
Speaker 1: doctor Zucker described and gave me a concrete reason for
Speaker 1: why it happened. It also helps offen the blow when
Speaker 1: people inevitably told me everything happens for a reason, I
Speaker 1: could respond in my head with yes, and the reason
Speaker 1: is that sometimes cells don't divide normally, creating a challenging
Speaker 1: environment in which to sustain a healthy baby. It didn't
Speaker 1: make the loss of my daughter any less devastating, but
Speaker 1: it at least gave me an answer to the big
Speaker 1: question of why something so horrible could happen, science happens.
Speaker 1: What really resonated with me is when Dr Zucker talked
Speaker 1: about people not knowing how to approach you after such
Speaker 1: a loss. After the initial I'm sorry for your loss,
Speaker 1: people would tell me that they didn't want to bring
Speaker 1: it up because they didn't want to remind me, which
Speaker 1: basically meant that it almost never came up again. I
Speaker 1: knew in my head that I wasn't forgotten and she
Speaker 1: wasn't forgotten, but it sure felt like that and made
Speaker 1: me feel very alone. One thing that I would like
Speaker 1: to tell people who want to be there for someone
Speaker 1: going through a loss is this, I'm thinking about it
Speaker 1: whether you bring it up or not, so you might
Speaker 1: as well show your support and bring it up. I'm
Speaker 1: sure that's not true for everyone, but it was and
Speaker 1: still is very true for me. Also, just because I'm
Speaker 1: the one going through it doesn't mean I necessarily know
Speaker 1: how to approach the subject or have the language to
Speaker 1: talk about it either. The kindest thing you could do
Speaker 1: is talk with me, even if it's uncomfortable for you,
Speaker 1: because it is way more uncomfortable for me, and it's
Speaker 1: hard to get comfortable with something you can't talk about
Speaker 1: any When I was on quote unquote maternity leave afterward,
Speaker 1: I was looking for things to read and listen to
Speaker 1: to occupy my brain, and that's how I found you, guys.
Speaker 1: Thank you for being there for me and getting me
Speaker 1: re engaged with the world. I'm a teacher and your
Speaker 1: podcast always gives me ideas for topics to introduce to kids,
Speaker 1: to broaden their beliefs and challenge their expectations. Well, thank
Speaker 1: you so much, Sarah. We really appreciate your story. And
Speaker 1: I've got a let her here from an anonymous listener
Speaker 1: about our infertility episode, and she writes that episodes stood
Speaker 1: out to me personally for a number of reasons. Though
Speaker 1: I'm only sixteen, the reality that I will never be
Speaker 1: able to bear children is something I was recently faced with.
Speaker 1: I developed an eating disorder at thirteen, which persisted in
Speaker 1: phases throughout my adolescence. The effects of malnutrition on a
Speaker 1: developing body vary, but for me, with my naturally small
Speaker 1: size and severe state of anorexia, it caused chronic amenorrhea
Speaker 1: and damage to my ovaries and uterus. As I recently
Speaker 1: learned from my kind of colleges. The reality of this
Speaker 1: is heavy, and I have yet to fully comprehend it.
Speaker 1: As an absinent teenager, I've never given much serious thought
Speaker 1: to my possible future as a mother. I guess now
Speaker 1: the decision is made for me that if I ever
Speaker 1: choose to have children, I'll have to go through alternate methods.
Speaker 1: Your episode on this topic was somewhat of a stress
Speaker 1: reliever for me on the matter, and gave me lots
Speaker 1: of great information about infertility across the globe and in
Speaker 1: different cultures. I know that if or when the right
Speaker 1: time comes, my inability to conceive does not define who
Speaker 1: I am as a woman or as a person, and
Speaker 1: that there are many other paths to take toward parenthood.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time and dedication to
Speaker 1: talking about these topics and how they pertain to women
Speaker 1: in all walks of life. The show has certainly educated, entertained,
Speaker 1: and encouraged me to be a more inclusive and aware
Speaker 1: of feminist as well as more accepting of myself and others,
Speaker 1: and I hope this has done the same for many
Speaker 1: other fans of the show. Well, thank you so much, Anonymous.
Speaker 1: That is um so so kind to hear and listeners again.
Speaker 1: Our email address is mom stuff at house at work
Speaker 1: dot com and fur links to all of our social
Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and
Speaker 1: podcasts with our sources so you can learn more about
Speaker 1: women in the trucking industry. Head on over to stuff
Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You dot com for more on this
Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff Works
Speaker 1: dot com