Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff. Mom never told you from how stuff works,
Speaker 1: not come hello, would welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen,
Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and Caroline, I'm in the midst of
Speaker 1: doing something I never really dreamed about, really planning my wedding,
Speaker 1: all right. Yeah, it has been an interesting process, I'll
Speaker 1: put it that way, because walking into this, obviously I
Speaker 1: have so much stuff Mom never told you, know how
Speaker 1: about all of the constructs and the wherefores and wise
Speaker 1: of these very strange wedding traditions that we tend to follow.
Speaker 1: But once you actually get into the weeds of wedding planning,
Speaker 1: it can be intense. I would imagine I would be.
Speaker 1: I'm imagining lots of pressure from lots of people in
Speaker 1: the rides life. I'm not necessarily stening to you, Kristen,
Speaker 1: but imagine there's a lot of pressure. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know how much pressure is directly from people
Speaker 1: in my life. I gotta hand it to my parents.
Speaker 1: They've been extremely chill about the whole thing. But what
Speaker 1: surprised me the most is the media pressure that I felt.
Speaker 1: Because as soon as you start digging into a lot
Speaker 1: of the mainstream wedding media. You quickly understand why the
Speaker 1: average cost of a wedding in the United States is
Speaker 1: a little over twenty six dollars. Why because there's so much.
Speaker 1: There's just so much, and since it's wedding, there's often
Speaker 1: a markup, and you've got a statistical rundown right of
Speaker 1: some of the individual expenses. Yeah, So before I dive
Speaker 1: into individual stuff, I would just like to point out
Speaker 1: that as of just a few years ago, not too
Speaker 1: long ago, um, the wedding industry in the United States
Speaker 1: was worth fifty three point four billion dollars. That's that's
Speaker 1: so much money. And it's even crazier because if you
Speaker 1: look at gifts that were purchased in off of wedding registries,
Speaker 1: people collectively in the US spent nineteen billion dollars on
Speaker 1: wedding gifts. So I hope your registry looks good. Conger
Speaker 1: and well, I've registered for nineteen billion dollars with a
Speaker 1: gift perfect. You're great, You're right on average. It was interesting.
Speaker 1: So I was looking at some some stats and interesting
Speaker 1: tidbits about weddings and the wedding industry off of this
Speaker 1: CNN story from a couple of years ago, and in twelve,
Speaker 1: they pointed out that seventeen percent of American brides opted
Speaker 1: for a quote unquote casual wedding, which is apparently much
Speaker 1: more than it had been in previous years. It just
Speaker 1: means that you're wearing a denim dress, the Britney Spears dress,
Speaker 1: You're dressed like Britney Spears, and justin Timberlake whatever year,
Speaker 1: that one of the very best couple photo of all time. Yes, Well,
Speaker 1: the thing is casual is such a deceptive term, I
Speaker 1: feel like, because casual can mean a courthouse wedding with
Speaker 1: a backyard party, but casual can also mean just casual
Speaker 1: looking and thousands upon thousands of dollars. So I now
Speaker 1: view the word casual in a wedding context with a
Speaker 1: very skeptical eye. Yeah, but that's something that we're talking
Speaker 1: about today with our special gifts, that's right. I gotta
Speaker 1: tell you, Caroline and I and I'm not saying this
Speaker 1: as some kind of paid endorsement um Legitimately, long before
Speaker 1: we were introduced, a practical wedding has been a lifesaver
Speaker 1: and sanity preserver for me during this wedding planning, because
Speaker 1: I'm doing a lot of it with McGroom to be
Speaker 1: d i Y Style and a Practical Wedding was created
Speaker 1: by Meg Keene, who we're talking to you today in
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, and it is just a haven
Speaker 1: for literally what it says, like, practical advice about wedding planning. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a great website and it's also a book. Now
Speaker 1: it's a book. It's actually two books. So a little
Speaker 1: while back she published a Practical Wedding Creative Solutions for
Speaker 1: Planning a Beautiful, affordable and meaningful Celebration, and just recently
Speaker 1: the newest Practical Wedding book came out, which is a
Speaker 1: Practical Wedding Planner, a step by step guide to cutting
Speaker 1: through the crazy and creating the wedding you want. And
Speaker 1: if you're someone like me who is a feminist and
Speaker 1: you're marrying a feminist and you're approaching this wedding thing,
Speaker 1: and you're like, okay, there's a whole money aspect, but
Speaker 1: there's also the whole like patriarchal tradition in white dress
Speaker 1: and father giving me away and all of this, and
Speaker 1: what do we do with that? Go to a practical wedding.
Speaker 1: It's seriously, it's like it's an amazing wedding site for
Speaker 1: I mean for anybody, but for feminists. Well, I mean
Speaker 1: it literally says on the website that they support laid
Speaker 1: back feminist weddings. That's fantastic. And we were so thrilled
Speaker 1: to get to talk to Meg because she has I
Speaker 1: mean just so much insight from the time that she's
Speaker 1: now spent in the wedding industry. But she's also she
Speaker 1: I mean, she's just hilarious and wise. Oh god, she's
Speaker 1: so funny. I think I think we should no matter
Speaker 1: what our sminthy topic is, we should just have her
Speaker 1: on the phone. I know, I know, and we we
Speaker 1: had so much to chat with her about. This is
Speaker 1: actually gonna be two part conversations, So today we're going
Speaker 1: to talk with Meg about this whole practical wedding thing
Speaker 1: and how weddings became so impractical and what a feminist
Speaker 1: wedding and a feminist bride and groom really means. So,
Speaker 1: without further ado, Meg Keane, ladies and gentlemen, well, Meg Keane,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us, UM for listeners
Speaker 1: who haven't heard of you and a practical wedding, could
Speaker 1: you just talk a little bit about who you are
Speaker 1: and this amazing site and now two books that you've written. Sure, UM,
Speaker 1: so I am sort of an unlikely wedding expert. UM.
Speaker 1: The fact that I am a wedding expert has sort
Speaker 1: of taken me by surprise for the last few years. UM.
Speaker 1: I started the site almost eight years ago, which seems
Speaker 1: insane to me at this point. UM, right after I
Speaker 1: got engaged. And that was back in the day where
Speaker 1: you could just sort of sign up for blog spot
Speaker 1: and start typing away and if you're lucky, people would
Speaker 1: read along. UM. And I I was lucky, UM, and
Speaker 1: people read along UM. And it really has just sort
Speaker 1: of grown gradually and then quickly, and now we're one
Speaker 1: of the biggest wedding sites in the English language. I
Speaker 1: always say in the English language, because I'm like, there's
Speaker 1: probably a huge one in China that I don't know
Speaker 1: about other country. UM. And I have written two books,
Speaker 1: creatively titled A Practical Wedding and A Practical Wedding Planner.
Speaker 1: The latter comes out UM this month. UH. And the
Speaker 1: first one was sort of a it's your bff talking
Speaker 1: you through wedding planning. I would say it's sort of
Speaker 1: a d programming of the wedding industry. UM. I talked
Speaker 1: about the history of weddings, the actual real life history
Speaker 1: of weddings. UM. I talk about, you know how tradition
Speaker 1: is actually just being nice to people. UM, and I
Speaker 1: sort of try to undo all of that horrible, stressful
Speaker 1: nonsense that the wedding industry has his ground into female
Speaker 1: brains for so long. UM. And then the newest book
Speaker 1: which is just coming out, UM, I spent nine grew
Speaker 1: ling months interviewing tens and tens of people while pregnant.
Speaker 1: Don't recommend UM and that is really like the logistical
Speaker 1: wedding planning book that I would have probably given my
Speaker 1: right arm for when I was planning a wedding. The
Speaker 1: cover sort of everything from UM sample dolls you can use,
Speaker 1: to how far apart your tables need to be UM
Speaker 1: so you can walk between them too, how to set
Speaker 1: a wedding budget, to what the real expenses of taco
Speaker 1: truck wed weddings are, to non traditional wedding venues, and
Speaker 1: what to know just sort of all of that information
Speaker 1: that once you're on the ground plant planning, you're like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I super need to know this, and
Speaker 1: there's really no way to find out which is a
Speaker 1: weird thing about the wage. So I'm dying to know
Speaker 1: you use the word deep programming. So as a as
Speaker 1: an unengaged, unmarried lady, I need to know what is
Speaker 1: the stuff that we need to be deprogrammed from and
Speaker 1: what what is the stuff that's been ground into us
Speaker 1: about weddings and wedding planning we like think, I mean
Speaker 1: sort of. The interesting thing is how big weddings have gotten,
Speaker 1: uh kind of while we weren't looking, I think, Um,
Speaker 1: and how difficult that is when you actually start to plan. Um.
Speaker 1: It's funny when you actually compare weddings as they are now,
Speaker 1: Um to weddings you probably went to as a kid,
Speaker 1: or I certainly went to it as a kid in
Speaker 1: the eighties. Uh. They really don't look alike at all,
Speaker 1: and they certainly don't look like anything like say, my
Speaker 1: parents wedding in the mid seventies. Um. So weddings of
Speaker 1: balloon to become this huge and hugely expensive thing where,
Speaker 1: for example, you kind of assume that you'll serve people
Speaker 1: a seated meal. Um, there's all these assumptions that you
Speaker 1: have going into planning just from TV shows and commercials.
Speaker 1: I think commercials are the worst, um, and wedding magazines
Speaker 1: and friends weddings, and so you sort of come into
Speaker 1: it with like, great, I'm just gonna have seated meal
Speaker 1: and this like nice wedding dress and a letter of
Speaker 1: presentations and it's gonna be great. And then you add
Speaker 1: that up and you're like, oh, that's like sixty thousand dollars,
Speaker 1: so maybe I'm not having that. So there's all of that,
Speaker 1: and then there's the the gender issues, which I think
Speaker 1: are really deep seated obviously, um in terms of the
Speaker 1: fact that weddings are you know, the roots. Roots are
Speaker 1: very patriarchal, and there's a lot of really sort of
Speaker 1: stiff gender roles going on there, and within wedding planning
Speaker 1: even even more so. I think the mini start planning
Speaker 1: a wedding, you get sort of every success for Mark
Speaker 1: in the book, um from like every random person on
Speaker 1: the street. UM. So trying to grapple with that is
Speaker 1: another sort of deep programming elements. So it's that whole like, oh,
Speaker 1: I thought I wanted all of these things, and do
Speaker 1: I really want all of these things or have I
Speaker 1: just been conditioned to want all of these things? And
Speaker 1: what can I hoard and what one of my values
Speaker 1: and all of that. I am curious in all of
Speaker 1: the research that you've done on the history of weddings
Speaker 1: and like the cultural history, if you noticed that turning
Speaker 1: point when weddings did become so impractical and did become
Speaker 1: this whole wedding industrial complex machine that we think about
Speaker 1: so much today. I think I thought a lot about
Speaker 1: this question, and I think that probably the most critical
Speaker 1: turning point was Princess size wedding. I don't think it
Speaker 1: actually was that wedding, but I think that cultural shifts
Speaker 1: were sort of happening right then, and that was the
Speaker 1: you know that gives you sort of a local point, um.
Speaker 1: But I think that there were cultural shifts happening in
Speaker 1: the Lakes seventies, um that sort of all culminated in
Speaker 1: the eighties where and I think probably the most critical
Speaker 1: cultural shift was weddings went from being um, just a
Speaker 1: fact of life, just you know, you grew up and
Speaker 1: you got married and that was what happened, UM to
Speaker 1: an optional thing, right, Like suddenly people were cohabitating, not
Speaker 1: getting married. So suddenly then UM, having a wedding was
Speaker 1: like a little bit more of a special snowflake decision.
Speaker 1: I think, um, and people didn't want to, you know,
Speaker 1: the countercultural movement was really, you know, happening, and people
Speaker 1: didn't want to just sort of go along to go along,
Speaker 1: and they wanted to make a statement. Um, and that
Speaker 1: was sort of the wise of the wedding industry was
Speaker 1: happening at happening at the same time. So I think
Speaker 1: that's when it when it started. And then um, you
Speaker 1: have Martha Stewart weddings starting and I want to say um.
Speaker 1: And so I think you have another training points sort
Speaker 1: of right around then as well, where it really powered
Speaker 1: up even more. Thanks a lot, Martha. It's also pretty,
Speaker 1: and then you're like, how much will it cost me
Speaker 1: to do it? All of the moneys I've ever made?
Speaker 1: It's so pretty. I made the mistake when I first
Speaker 1: got engaged of running to the grocery store and picking
Speaker 1: up Bride's magazine and Martha Stewart's Wedding just for fun,
Speaker 1: and gave myself a panic attack flipping through it, just
Speaker 1: being like, oh my gosh, I can never do this.
Speaker 1: What how okay? Well, I can't even do anything that's
Speaker 1: in her regular magazine, so I sure as hell I
Speaker 1: don't think I can do anything in her bridal magazine.
Speaker 1: But I mean that kind of leads me to the
Speaker 1: question of the whole d I Y movement. It seems
Speaker 1: like there's this I don't know if it's a pinterest
Speaker 1: push or if it's another cultural shift that we're seeing it.
Speaker 1: There is this push to have on the flip side,
Speaker 1: like a super cheap wedding, like instead of buying into
Speaker 1: the industrial wedding complex, you're gonna you know, make everything
Speaker 1: from popsicle sticks but wedding. But whether it's a d
Speaker 1: I Y wedding that you're paying a lot for in
Speaker 1: terms of like you're crafting so much that you have
Speaker 1: to spend so much money, or whether it really is
Speaker 1: like super d i Y and you're trying to keep
Speaker 1: it super cheap. How can you accomplish something along those
Speaker 1: lines and not lose your mind trying that kind of wedding?
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Yeah? It does. And I would
Speaker 1: say that that really starts to the the session right
Speaker 1: that that's where that shift took place, um, which was
Speaker 1: right around when I was getting married. Um it's a
Speaker 1: balance and I think I actually learned writing this book
Speaker 1: more than I had any idea before, even though I'd
Speaker 1: been doing this for um nearly that. Okay, it's sort
Speaker 1: of embarrassing how much I learned writing this book, because
Speaker 1: I was like, I probably should have known this already somehow. Um.
Speaker 1: But writing this book, I really got a grip on
Speaker 1: the fact that d I Y isn't always cheaper, and
Speaker 1: that I think you need to be really careful if you.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's two reasons c d I Y. You're
Speaker 1: maybe d I ying because you want to make something
Speaker 1: extra special personal, or you want to make something with
Speaker 1: your hands, or you know, for a lot of people,
Speaker 1: weddings are like this sort of suddenly this creative vocal
Speaker 1: point and outlet, you know, while they're they're in there
Speaker 1: in twenties now and they're sitting at a desk all
Speaker 1: day doing something, you know, incredibly uncreative. So if that's
Speaker 1: the case, like great, not counsel about um. But then
Speaker 1: there's the other the other instinct to d I Y
Speaker 1: to save money UM. And I think I fell warrant
Speaker 1: to that camp. Certainly. We just couldn't afford you know,
Speaker 1: we could afford what I thought was a ton of money,
Speaker 1: but it was still you know, half of the average
Speaker 1: for the area. So, um, we were needing to cut corners,
Speaker 1: and UM, we certainly made some mistakes um in that.
Speaker 1: For example, we did d I Y all of our flowers. Um.
Speaker 1: And it's totally possible to do that, and I actually
Speaker 1: outlined in the book sort of all the best practices
Speaker 1: if you're going to do that. But if I were
Speaker 1: going to go back and do it all again, I
Speaker 1: would order order personal flowers, you know, bouquets um from
Speaker 1: a florist and probably just not have center pieces on
Speaker 1: the tables and call it quits. Because we spent so
Speaker 1: much money on d I Y and our own flowers,
Speaker 1: there was like the test run to make sure that
Speaker 1: we knew what we were doing, which I'm glad we did, uh,
Speaker 1: And then not knowing how many flowers to buy, right,
Speaker 1: so we went to the flower market and like in
Speaker 1: a drunk spending spree of crazy bought like every flower
Speaker 1: under the sun, and then you know, to make sure
Speaker 1: we didn't run out, and then like buying all the supplies.
Speaker 1: And so I think that's really sort of a case
Speaker 1: study and like being careful what d I Y choices
Speaker 1: you make, and also being really realistic about how many
Speaker 1: of them you take on. And my cardinal rule is
Speaker 1: the inverse of what you think is true, which is
Speaker 1: you should only d I Y something if you care
Speaker 1: a lot about it, and if you don't care about
Speaker 1: it and you're just trying to save money, like that's
Speaker 1: it's it's the other way, where things you don't care
Speaker 1: about you should throw money at to make them go away,
Speaker 1: and things that you do care about you might spend
Speaker 1: less money on and like work on it with your hands.
Speaker 1: But if you don't care about flowers, you're gonna want
Speaker 1: to kill yourself. If you to save money have dedicated
Speaker 1: like you know, days of your life to this project. Well,
Speaker 1: that kind of reminds me of the along with the
Speaker 1: d I Y culture. Sort of connected to that is
Speaker 1: the rise of the chill bride, where I mean, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't say that the d I Y bride is necessarily
Speaker 1: the chill bride, but they're they're sort of in the
Speaker 1: same family. They're related, um, and you know, we all
Speaker 1: know how terrible the bride Zilla is. But I'm curious
Speaker 1: about your your observations in terms of this this new
Speaker 1: sort of aspirational bride who's just like she's still laid
Speaker 1: back and you know, just it will happen the way
Speaker 1: it'll happen. And honestly, the chill bride has has made
Speaker 1: me as stressed out as the you know, overly intensive
Speaker 1: bride because it's like, well, but but I need to
Speaker 1: care a little bit, but I don't want to care
Speaker 1: too much. I know, I know, oh that that was
Speaker 1: really starting to happen big time when I got married,
Speaker 1: So like, I feel you all that, and and still
Speaker 1: was in my head that was the stupid part, right,
Speaker 1: Like I was like fighting with myself like, well you
Speaker 1: should be chill or maybe like the internet will find
Speaker 1: out or something like like who's going to find out?
Speaker 1: So what was I even you know, arguing with myself about.
Speaker 1: But um, I think it's really true. Also sort of
Speaker 1: one of our internal mantras, you know, within the staff
Speaker 1: that we try to um like really communicate to people
Speaker 1: online is that if you want to have a chill wedding,
Speaker 1: that does not necessarily equal chill about planning and and
Speaker 1: and we don't mean like stress yourself out, spend a
Speaker 1: million dollars, but for your actual wedding experience to be chill,
Speaker 1: which I would argue is way more important than being
Speaker 1: like quote unquote the chill bride, um, you need to
Speaker 1: have it planned out right, And um, one of my
Speaker 1: co workers was formerly a wedding planner, so she's been
Speaker 1: to just, you know, a zillion weddings, and she points
Speaker 1: out that like the chill bride, like the really chill bride,
Speaker 1: provides like the least possible chill wedding experience for her guests,
Speaker 1: because not that not the only brides are planning weddings,
Speaker 1: but you know, the really chill couple, their wedding is
Speaker 1: like a disorganized disaster. And I've been to those weddings
Speaker 1: where you're like, so, like what's happening next? Or are
Speaker 1: we gonna eat? Or it's definitely been an hour since
Speaker 1: the ceremony and it's like eight like because nothing's been playing.
Speaker 1: So um, I think there's that balance. And god, it's
Speaker 1: just like the city is all of the in city
Speaker 1: is gender tropes about women, right, Like we can only
Speaker 1: be one or the other. We can be Bridezilla or
Speaker 1: we can be the child ride and like it's it's
Speaker 1: like the whole cool girl thing of like I'm the
Speaker 1: cool girl and I only care about things that boys
Speaker 1: care about. I'm just so cool and chill, like is
Speaker 1: that I don't know if that's a real thing that
Speaker 1: a real human can can be. So um, I just
Speaker 1: feel like it's it's like one more, one more for
Speaker 1: for how there's a double standard. Yeah, Caroline and I
Speaker 1: were just nodding emphatically to each other with your comparison
Speaker 1: to a cool girl trope, because it's totally it's it's
Speaker 1: the bridal version of that. Yeptally it seems like it
Speaker 1: doesn't exist in the real world, and you know what,
Speaker 1: it kind of does and and there's like a whole
Speaker 1: marketing thing around it kind of does. But you need
Speaker 1: to be careful about differentiating people that are paying for
Speaker 1: their own weddings, are paying for their weddings along with
Speaker 1: their family of reasonable means, and people whose parents are
Speaker 1: paying for their weddings because they have a whole lot
Speaker 1: of money because there's a market for that, right especially
Speaker 1: in say New York, where a lot of the bridal
Speaker 1: market is. And so it's like, yeah, you can be
Speaker 1: the chill ride if you're spending and no judgment right,
Speaker 1: Like sounds fun, But if you're spending a hundred thousand
Speaker 1: dollars of your parents money and and so you're not
Speaker 1: even stressed about it being your money, Like, yeah, you
Speaker 1: can chill up because guess what, you just like pick
Speaker 1: a dress and some flowers and show up because you
Speaker 1: have a race planner. Um. And so I think that
Speaker 1: gets communicated to us for wedding media. It's like, look
Speaker 1: at this cool in the like chill bride. And now
Speaker 1: that I have a trained eye, I can often look
Speaker 1: at those weddings and be like, oh, that wedding is
Speaker 1: two K. So we're like define chill. Well, what do
Speaker 1: you make of the unweddings trend because that is separate
Speaker 1: from the the chill bride um. So what about what
Speaker 1: about that? What do you think that says about our
Speaker 1: wedding culture? You know, there's a reason to do that,
Speaker 1: And I think there's really a reason to do that
Speaker 1: in some cases. Um. You know, for example, if you
Speaker 1: have a really intense family and planning a wedding with
Speaker 1: them is just going to be terrible. Um, but you
Speaker 1: love them and want them to be there, you can
Speaker 1: you know, maybe you it's up to you want to
Speaker 1: like sort of plan a wedding on the slyly on
Speaker 1: the sly and then be like, hey, we got married
Speaker 1: you're mindaged me very though, Like if you have to
Speaker 1: kind think through like how your people are going to
Speaker 1: react to that. Are they going to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is magical or is your mom gonna like pull
Speaker 1: you aside later and wring your neck um and and
Speaker 1: do you care? But yeah, I think you know, there's
Speaker 1: we've sort of had the rise of the like small
Speaker 1: wedding and the wedding in the past few years. When
Speaker 1: I started to site, one of my stated goals was
Speaker 1: to like make elopements cool again. And and either we
Speaker 1: were really successful or everything changed, because now, like that
Speaker 1: statement seems so ridiculous. We get so many elopements submissions
Speaker 1: every month that we we have to turn most of
Speaker 1: them down because we're like, well, we can't just run alopements.
Speaker 1: That's not helpful for everybody planning bigger weddings. So now
Speaker 1: it's like so incredibly popular to elope that, you know.
Speaker 1: So we've sort of like the pendulum swings, and that's
Speaker 1: where we are on the pendulum right now. Do you
Speaker 1: notice any trends about who's eloping, isn't older couples, younger couples,
Speaker 1: or a mix of both. I'm just I'm curious because
Speaker 1: I'm thirty two and unmarried, and a lot of my
Speaker 1: girlfriends who've already been through the process, many of them
Speaker 1: have not just one, but many have said, God, just
Speaker 1: a lope when it's your turn. So I was wondering
Speaker 1: if this is a case of, like your girlfriends have
Speaker 1: influenced you and you've seen the stress that they've gone through,
Speaker 1: or is it just a mix? Is it a grab bag?
Speaker 1: I think it's funny. I never really thought of that
Speaker 1: about that, um, But I think it's older couples. I mean,
Speaker 1: we've very rarely get a loans where you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: they're twenty two. Um. Also because there's a different perception, right,
Speaker 1: Like if you are thirty five and you a lope,
Speaker 1: people are like, oh, that's cool. If you aren't twenty
Speaker 1: two and you are lope, I think everybody's like, are
Speaker 1: you pregnant? Did you think this through? Like what are
Speaker 1: you doing? Um? So I think you kind of have
Speaker 1: to like be old enough to feel like you are
Speaker 1: in the right to not that you don't have the
Speaker 1: right at any age, but like, I think that's probably
Speaker 1: part of it psychological and the same like you're older,
Speaker 1: you've been to a zillion weddings. Well, most people, actually
Speaker 1: several people on staff, including me, like don't go to
Speaker 1: a zillion weddings for whatever reason. But a lot of
Speaker 1: people I hear in the world go to a zillion weddings.
Speaker 1: So if you've been to like fourteen weddings last year,
Speaker 1: you may just be like, I'm I'm done done. Well,
Speaker 1: you mentioned the patriarchal traditions of weddings and the highly
Speaker 1: gendered roles even just wrapped up with basic wedding planning.
Speaker 1: So we wanted to talk to you about the concept
Speaker 1: of feminist weddings because this well I don't need to say,
Speaker 1: because I mean, what do you what do you think
Speaker 1: about how those two combine. Well, I mean, first of all,
Speaker 1: I am like the world's strongest proponent for like they
Speaker 1: do combine, because there is this, you know, this argument
Speaker 1: that like, weddings are built on patriarch traditions, so it's
Speaker 1: impossible to have a phone a wedding, and I'm kind
Speaker 1: of like, yeah, Also, the world is built on patriarchal
Speaker 1: arcal traditions and we have to like carry on and
Speaker 1: move forward. So, um, if we if we threw out
Speaker 1: everything that was based on patriarchal traditions, like how could
Speaker 1: we even get out of bed in the morning? Um So,
Speaker 1: I just feel like you just have to be able
Speaker 1: to reclaim the stuff that you care about and um
Speaker 1: whether that's like and then decide you don't care about
Speaker 1: other stuff, right, Like I wear a makeup and that's
Speaker 1: not don't wear that's a feminist choice, but like I'm
Speaker 1: a feminist and I like makeup, so whatever. Um So,
Speaker 1: I think part of it is is that, right that like,
Speaker 1: where am I going to make a feminist dance on
Speaker 1: my wedding? And where do I kind of just not
Speaker 1: care enough? Um? And because you can't make every feminist
Speaker 1: dance ever ever, but you can't do it for weddings
Speaker 1: usually there's just sort of too much. Um So, I
Speaker 1: think it's just a process of being thoughtful and then
Speaker 1: I'm sure we'll talk more about this um when we
Speaker 1: talk about sort of relationships in general. But I also
Speaker 1: think it's a process of um fighting for what's important. Um.
Speaker 1: I mean I really think that, especially in in mixed
Speaker 1: gender partnerships, like um, dudes are only as feminist as
Speaker 1: they are required to be. I mean, you know, I
Speaker 1: married like a lovely feminist man and I still fight
Speaker 1: with them over feminist issues like every day o the week. So, um,
Speaker 1: I think I think there's a part of it's like
Speaker 1: feminist education for your partner being like nope, we're not
Speaker 1: going to do that and here's why. Um. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it's picking your battle. Like I was not gonna have
Speaker 1: my dad walked me down the aisle. That's but for
Speaker 1: some people that's like a really emotional important thing. Um,
Speaker 1: you know. But at the same time, we had a
Speaker 1: Jewish wedding and um, my husband stumped on the glasses
Speaker 1: and I didn't because we got we got down to
Speaker 1: the end of sort of decision making, and I finally
Speaker 1: was like I just I like, I have been having
Speaker 1: reoccurring nightmares, which is which is true that I stomped
Speaker 1: on the glass and a shark goes through my shoe
Speaker 1: and like my foot bleeds really badly and I just
Speaker 1: don't want to do it. Um, And my husband said like,
Speaker 1: I just really want to do it on my own.
Speaker 1: I don't want to do it with you, and I
Speaker 1: was like right. So we went to our canter and
Speaker 1: work in our really progressive synagogue and we're like, WHOA,
Speaker 1: what do we do though, because feminism and she she
Speaker 1: said he was feminism is a part also about deciding
Speaker 1: what works for each of you. And if what works
Speaker 1: for you is that he genuinely wants to stump on
Speaker 1: the glass and you genuinely do not, then great, You've
Speaker 1: made the right two weeks for you. So that happens
Speaker 1: to sometimes. Oh that sounds so simple. Then, so a
Speaker 1: feminist wedding basically looks like a wedding that you planned
Speaker 1: together based on what feels comfortable and right and authentic
Speaker 1: and meaningful to you. Yeah, I think so. I mean
Speaker 1: it's the same with decisions around the house, right, Like
Speaker 1: we pick our responsibilities in our household based on what
Speaker 1: we care about and are good at, and that means
Speaker 1: my husband cooks, so that's gender and non traditional, but
Speaker 1: I'm totally our social secretary and that's gender conforming. But
Speaker 1: that's just I'm good at it and I like it.
Speaker 1: He's bad at it and he hates it. So that's
Speaker 1: how we do it. Um. And I think it's sort
Speaker 1: of the same thing with with the weddings that as
Speaker 1: long as you kind of look at each item and
Speaker 1: are like, what is right for us here? Um, then
Speaker 1: you're gonna be fine. Yeah, my fiance and I keep
Speaker 1: joking about how he's going to have a groom's march
Speaker 1: and I'll be waiting for him. There is you was
Speaker 1: wanting to feel a boat. So we were lucky that way.
Speaker 1: We was like we had all these the Gallaxharian things already,
Speaker 1: Like he walked down the aisle of his parents, and
Speaker 1: I worked at the aisle of my parents, I know
Speaker 1: what you know, and speaking of like non non feminist
Speaker 1: things that I love, Like, I was really adamant about
Speaker 1: the fact that everyone would stand up when I walked
Speaker 1: down the aisle, and everyone did, and it's so like
Speaker 1: one of the like emotional moments of my life. So
Speaker 1: you know, whatever that worked for me. Do you see
Speaker 1: any type of like feminist wedding marketing stuff trickling into
Speaker 1: the whole wedding industry or is that still sort of
Speaker 1: a fringe thing when it comes to marketing and planning
Speaker 1: just my stuff? I mean feel like I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm the I'm the guilty party here. Um, there's not
Speaker 1: I don't think god. I mean, feminism is becoming such
Speaker 1: a a buzzword, which you know has use up to
Speaker 1: a nouns, but I think is mostly up right, like
Speaker 1: it's a good thing. Um, but the wedding industry lags
Speaker 1: behind everything so badly, you guys. I mean like sometimes
Speaker 1: that people like such an easy mark to like work
Speaker 1: in the industry and try to make it better because
Speaker 1: you're just like it is legitimately so bad most of
Speaker 1: the time. Um. So, yeah, I haven't seen a lot
Speaker 1: of that, And like on one hand it might be
Speaker 1: feel crashed, but like on the other hand, I might
Speaker 1: be like, well, look at that, that's a nice change.
Speaker 1: So now I've mentioned the egalitarian wedding planning and ceremonies,
Speaker 1: and I just wanted to ask you a little bit
Speaker 1: more about the groom. Where is the groom in this
Speaker 1: whole process. I mean, that's kind of the incredible thing
Speaker 1: with this massive life event, Like obviously the groom has
Speaker 1: the moment with the proposal. We're speaking like hetero terms, obviously,
Speaker 1: but then it's like everyone forgets about him until the
Speaker 1: day of Um. So we have seen a real shift,
Speaker 1: interestingly around that week gay marriage, which is weird, but
Speaker 1: at the first doma decision, but it started changing, Like
Speaker 1: when you talk to wedding photographers, it suddenly was like, oh,
Speaker 1: grooms sort of the point of contact is often it's bride.
Speaker 1: So there was this sort of I mean obviously, right,
Speaker 1: a huge cultural shift, um, but somehow it made up
Speaker 1: you know, fun So so we debunked that argument that
Speaker 1: gay marriages make all of our marriage marriage is weaker.
Speaker 1: Apparently they make all of our marriages more galitarian, which
Speaker 1: is amazing. Um, so we're seeing a little bit more
Speaker 1: of it. But god, it's it's terrible. But there is
Speaker 1: the there's so many things to balance there. I think
Speaker 1: it's important to remember who cares about what, right, because
Speaker 1: I would rate my husband over things like, um, but
Speaker 1: but I need you to pick flower colors, right and
Speaker 1: find He was like, here's the thing. I don't care
Speaker 1: at all, So if you make me pick, I'm just
Speaker 1: going to pick at random. Um. But it was like,
Speaker 1: but it's no, you have to be involved with every
Speaker 1: part of planning. Well no, right, Like people need to
Speaker 1: be involved in parts planning that they're interested in, and
Speaker 1: then you have to divide up the things that nobody's
Speaker 1: interested in amongst yourself, and you have to try to
Speaker 1: balance like the actual amount of work. Right if if
Speaker 1: like he's interested in like sitting in a chair and
Speaker 1: watching TV. Then that doesn't work out for you. UM.
Speaker 1: But the other there's sort of interesting thing that comes
Speaker 1: up is because women are so conditioned to think about
Speaker 1: weddings that often women are kind of a couple of
Speaker 1: steps ahead on the progressive scale with weddings, where by
Speaker 1: the time you get married, you know, you're engaged, you've
Speaker 1: already moved past like I'm going to have a big
Speaker 1: white you know, expensive whatever wet, and you've moved on
Speaker 1: to like I'm going to have a feminist, alternative wedding. UM.
Speaker 1: And your partner maybe has never thought about any of that,
Speaker 1: because the amount of time they've spent thinking about weddings
Speaker 1: is like ten minutes once UM, And so they're like,
Speaker 1: I just whatever, I'm just signed up for this thing
Speaker 1: I see on TV. UM. So we've seen that as
Speaker 1: a point of conflict a lot, where the rooms still
Speaker 1: want something really traditional and um, the bride again speaking
Speaker 1: in hetero terms here, the bride um wants something less traditional.
Speaker 1: And I just think it it has to do with
Speaker 1: the amount of time that we have thought about it
Speaker 1: over the course of our lives. So I'm really interested
Speaker 1: in hearing what the top wedding etiquette and planning questions
Speaker 1: and conundrums are that you feeled at a practical wedding,
Speaker 1: like what are the things that people are dying to know?
Speaker 1: Most often, well, the least common question is what do
Speaker 1: I do about my friend who is making me buy address?
Speaker 1: I saw that, Oh my gosh, and we researched it, right,
Speaker 1: because when people sending questions, we usually do our due
Speaker 1: diligence and research like who they are and make sure
Speaker 1: that like this is a legit thing. Um, we don't
Speaker 1: publish their names, right, but like we do our like
Speaker 1: due diligence, fine disease, We're like, no, I think this
Speaker 1: is for real, So that's not super common. But um,
Speaker 1: I think that our most common question is some variation
Speaker 1: of do I have to pay attention to this opinion
Speaker 1: of X person that I love? Um? And the answer
Speaker 1: is right, like only you know for sure, grasshopper, but
Speaker 1: probably um. Not that you have to like do everything
Speaker 1: that everyone you love wants, but you can't. Probably just
Speaker 1: flow them off. UM. And we've started getting letters in
Speaker 1: the past a year or so from mothers as the
Speaker 1: site's sort of gotten a lot more well known. I
Speaker 1: think UM and I have to say that they are
Speaker 1: the most heartbreaking letters that we get. Um, they're just
Speaker 1: oh God, Like I've cried when I've gotten them, especially
Speaker 1: as a mom um, where it's just like I don't
Speaker 1: understand and they won't tell me anything. And I just
Speaker 1: asked about this one question and they called me invasive
Speaker 1: and I've been crying for like three weeks. But I
Speaker 1: definitely don't want them to know that I've been crying
Speaker 1: for three weeks and can you help explain what's going on? Um? So,
Speaker 1: you know, parents and loved ones get cast in this
Speaker 1: sort of like bad guy role and the truth is
Speaker 1: that you know, depends on your family relationship obviously, but
Speaker 1: like if you have a good family relationship, your parents
Speaker 1: have probably been thinking about your wedding a lot longer
Speaker 1: than you have, or you know, even if it's not
Speaker 1: your wedding specifically, like you're changing your kids diapers and
Speaker 1: you're thinking about like I hope they have a happy life.
Speaker 1: I hope they end up with a good partner. Um,
Speaker 1: So do then have the to totally cut them out? Um?
Speaker 1: I think is really painful for people. So I'm sure
Speaker 1: that many times, UM, people playing their weddings who are
Speaker 1: kind of losing their minds and like at that emotional
Speaker 1: breaking point because it can get very emotional. Who come
Speaker 1: to you and say, oh, this is awful. I don't
Speaker 1: know what to do. What is your go to advice
Speaker 1: to to calm calm, to cook, to calm nervous um
Speaker 1: soon to be brides and grooms. Uh, you know, it's
Speaker 1: it's hard because like people tell you things like, well,
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, you'll be married, and
Speaker 1: that is helpful, like the day before, right like that
Speaker 1: it's really legitimately good advice the day before. Um, but
Speaker 1: people were saying that to me two months out when
Speaker 1: I was saying things like, uh, I we need to
Speaker 1: figure out a way to get the alcohol up to
Speaker 1: the picnic site, and people would be like, at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, you'll be married, And I was
Speaker 1: like that, I mean that you're definitely not gonna let
Speaker 1: us use your car then, right, like that was not
Speaker 1: a question I was asking you, Um, so I don't
Speaker 1: know at the end of the day you will be married.
Speaker 1: But um, I think it's important to remember that. It
Speaker 1: feels really symbolic, but your wedding really is just this
Speaker 1: party to celebrate something that you already have and that
Speaker 1: you will continue to deepen over many years. And you know,
Speaker 1: if things go wrong, it really doesn't matter in in
Speaker 1: the scope of your wife. So it may matter in
Speaker 1: the scope of this year or this month, but in
Speaker 1: the scope of your life, you'll look back and be like, well,
Speaker 1: that's a hilarious story. Hopefully. My mom jokes that every
Speaker 1: wedding is supposed to have a story. Um, and we're
Speaker 1: at a wedding on where the DJ started. He was
Speaker 1: narrating everything that I did. She is now greeting table
Speaker 1: twelve like all night long, and my mom goes, well,
Speaker 1: at least she has her story now and a narrator, right,
Speaker 1: DJ is I feel like it's like massive opportunity for
Speaker 1: awkwardness with some of those DJs out there. So thank
Speaker 1: you so much to Meg Keen, creator of a Practical
Speaker 1: Wedding dot com And listeners. If you enjoyed hearing from Meg,
Speaker 1: that's not all. There's more in the next episode. We're
Speaker 1: going to talk about what happens after you get married
Speaker 1: with a feminist marriage and being a feminist wife. There's
Speaker 1: a lot more to learn. Yeah, and listeners, I can
Speaker 1: promise you that even even I as an unengaged unmarried
Speaker 1: lady found our conversation with Meg fascinating, so stay tuned,
Speaker 1: and in the meantime, we want to hear from you,
Speaker 1: dear listeners, about your wedding planning issues. Have you ever
Speaker 1: felt any conflict between your feminist ideology and the prospect
Speaker 1: of being engaged, of getting married and all of the
Speaker 1: money and all of the expectations, Because listen, I've been there,
Speaker 1: I am there, actually, so commiserate with me. Mom Stuff
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot Com is our email address.
Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or
Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages
Speaker 1: to share with you right now. So I've gotta let
Speaker 1: her hear about our two parter on the history of abortion.
Speaker 1: And this is from someone who would like to remain anonymous,
Speaker 1: and she wrote, I love this show and was so
Speaker 1: excited to see all talking about abortion. I was really
Speaker 1: dismayed though, when you open episode with no one is
Speaker 1: really pro abortion. That's not true, and it plays into
Speaker 1: the weird language that gets used around abortion but not
Speaker 1: other types of healthcare. To crib from the sentiment expressed
Speaker 1: in the Salon article below, I'm pro abortion just like
Speaker 1: I'm pro knee surgery. I think people should get the
Speaker 1: medical care that they need, and I think that there
Speaker 1: should be health care professionals who are trained to provide
Speaker 1: it and facilities where it can be access safely and
Speaker 1: without harassment. I understand that what you were saying is,
Speaker 1: wouldn't it be great if the need for abortion went away?
Speaker 1: But the fact is that pregnancy is complicated, and so
Speaker 1: are the lives of people who can get pregnant. Abortion
Speaker 1: will always be needed by someone somewhere, and again, we
Speaker 1: just don't talk about other medical procedures this way. I
Speaker 1: suppose it would be great if the need for heart
Speaker 1: surgery went away, but I never dream of saying no
Speaker 1: one as pro heart surgery. Again, I'm a huge fan.
Speaker 1: I spread the Sminty Gospel whenever I get the chance,
Speaker 1: and I'm really glad you're talking about this important topic
Speaker 1: and listeners. I didn't want to note that I responded
Speaker 1: to this email to clarify and also, you know, say,
Speaker 1: I totally get what uh this listener meant by that,
Speaker 1: and just to clarify what I had meant by known
Speaker 1: as really pro abortion more thinking about the mechanics of
Speaker 1: abortion as a surgery, as a counter to the hyper
Speaker 1: conservative perception that pro choice women are just running out
Speaker 1: to get an abortion every chance they can because we
Speaker 1: just love this particular procedure so much. But this language
Speaker 1: when we talk about abortion, obviously, is really important to
Speaker 1: pay attention to. So thank you to this listener for
Speaker 1: highlighting that I have a letter here from Ali, As
Speaker 1: she says, thank you so much for all the work
Speaker 1: that you do for Sminty. I started listening to your
Speaker 1: podcast about six months ago, and it's helped me to
Speaker 1: articulate my thoughts on the gender disparities I've noticed, but
Speaker 1: I've never really known how to discuss. I love listening
Speaker 1: to you talk about complex issues in such a straightforward,
Speaker 1: accessible and fun way. Listening to you both from minds
Speaker 1: me of conversations I have with my friends, and I
Speaker 1: really look forward to Mondays and Wednesdays when the new
Speaker 1: podcast are released. I never thought about writing to you
Speaker 1: until your History of Abortion episode came out. I'm a
Speaker 1: technology consultant at a large firm in d C. It's
Speaker 1: my promotion year and my firm has an upper out policy. Basically,
Speaker 1: if I don't get promoted this year, I should start
Speaker 1: looking for a new job. As a woman in technology.
Speaker 1: I'm very mindful of how people perceived me, so imagine
Speaker 1: how I felt when I found out that I was
Speaker 1: pregnant in November by my boyfriend of two years. While
Speaker 1: we love each other and hope to get married one day,
Speaker 1: we both agreed that this was not the right time
Speaker 1: for a baby. I'm working crazy hours trying to get promoted,
Speaker 1: and he travels three times a month for his job.
Speaker 1: A baby would have completely derailed our lives. So I
Speaker 1: made the extremely difficult choice to get an abortion. I
Speaker 1: did it for all of the right reasons, yet I
Speaker 1: still feel like there's a void in my heart. My
Speaker 1: abortion was not an easy decision, but it was a
Speaker 1: decision that I made for myself and my future family.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that you started the podcast with the
Speaker 1: statement we support the right to choose women who use abortion.
Speaker 1: Faced so much hostility that it's refreshing to hear a
Speaker 1: compassion in turn into the conversation. Again, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for all that you do. Your podcast have become
Speaker 1: a staple in my life. Please keep up the good
Speaker 1: work and continue to approach your subjects with respect and compassion.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Ali, and thanks to everybody who's written into us.
Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our
Speaker 1: email address and for links all of our social media
Speaker 1: as well as all of our videos, blogs and podcasts
Speaker 1: with our sources. So you can learn more about Meg
Speaker 1: Keene in a practical wedding, head on over to stuff
Speaker 1: mom Never Told You dot com for more on this
Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works
Speaker 1: dot com