Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff. Mom never told you from house to works,
Speaker 1: not come hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
Speaker 1: and I'm like Caroline. Something big happened last night afore
Speaker 1: I watched The Craft for the first time. And you're
Speaker 1: how old? I'm thirty and I watched The Craft for
Speaker 1: the first time. Gosh darn at Caroline was raising a
Speaker 1: very conservative home and movies with the cult themes were
Speaker 1: not allow. What about slumber parties? They weren't allow. You know,
Speaker 1: I went to slumber parties, But I never saw The Craft.
Speaker 1: I just never saw it. I was obceased with it.
Speaker 1: Tell me more because that's why that I loved that movie.
Speaker 1: I was equal parts like terrified and adoring of Perusa
Speaker 1: Ball in that movie, like her use of dark lipstick.
Speaker 1: I so admired. You can still try to pull it off, Caroline.
Speaker 1: I was about to say pull it off, the decided
Speaker 1: to add the try too, because it's a tough look.
Speaker 1: It is a tough look, and I am very pale.
Speaker 1: My skin tends to get a little ready, especially when
Speaker 1: I'm embarrassed, and I feel like a dark, dark, almost
Speaker 1: black red would just not look good on me, or
Speaker 1: just make your lips pop. You know, I was so
Speaker 1: surprised watching it that a movie made in nine six,
Speaker 1: it still felt fresh to me. I mean, maybe it
Speaker 1: was just like skeet Ulric's face just shining through on screen.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe it was their cool semi coordinated outfits.
Speaker 1: Maybe it was the soundtrack, which I kind of now
Speaker 1: I want to buy and yes on CD, just you know,
Speaker 1: for nostalgia. Um, but it was really good. It's a
Speaker 1: great movie. And then I realized though in preparing for
Speaker 1: this episode, so not only was I like super excited
Speaker 1: to maybe potentially chat about The Craft, but I started realizing, like, wait,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of great which is that I
Speaker 1: love in movies that I've seen over the course of
Speaker 1: my life, Like which is the movie which is with
Speaker 1: Angelica Houston. Yeah, that's the purpose of this entire podcast.
Speaker 1: I know. Well I was. I just enjoyed my trip
Speaker 1: down memory lane. So should we save some of your
Speaker 1: favorite witches for later in the podcast? Sign? I know,
Speaker 1: because I'm only asking because I could sit here and
Speaker 1: talk along. Because also not as big of a thing,
Speaker 1: but another thing that happened last night before I watched
Speaker 1: The Craft for the first time, I watched teen which
Speaker 1: for the first time and have not seen that. Well,
Speaker 1: well here we go movie, I've seen, Buddy, you haven't
Speaker 1: how the tables have turned, Caroline. They have literally what
Speaker 1: slumber parties have you not been to? You know? So
Speaker 1: it was either the Craft or wild Hearts can't be
Speaker 1: broken now that I have seen so many times tragic
Speaker 1: love story. We'll do another podcast episode on Versus in
Speaker 1: swimming Pools. So, dear listeners, Halloween is coming up at
Speaker 1: least at the time that we are recording this podcast,
Speaker 1: and we got to talk about witches and nothing really
Speaker 1: to do with the history of real live witches, but
Speaker 1: witches especially on screen, because the more you start thinking
Speaker 1: about the appeal of witches, I'm not talking about like evil,
Speaker 1: witchy witches like the Wicked Witch of the West. I'm
Speaker 1: talking about like witches in the craft, like your Angelica,
Speaker 1: which in the witches that you love so much, Like
Speaker 1: why do we as ladies love which is so much?
Speaker 1: Because a lot of times which is are associated with evilness, ugliness, spinsterhood,
Speaker 1: and yet there's this whole other, bigger group of witches
Speaker 1: that are associated with cunning and power and fun. Well,
Speaker 1: I think even the witches that are associated with evil
Speaker 1: and ugliness and spinsterhood are still delivering a big old
Speaker 1: middle finger to convention. But I mean, especially if we
Speaker 1: are talking in terms of like pop culture and and
Speaker 1: movie and TV representations. When you any time I feel like,
Speaker 1: because Hollywood is not only sexist but agist, anytime you
Speaker 1: have a woman over like thirty, Uh, that's like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, how are we going to cast her? Uh?
Speaker 1: And so yeah, the fact that a character could potentially
Speaker 1: be older, she could maybe wear one of those like
Speaker 1: fake witch noses and a fake witch wart, it's like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: screw you convention and beauty norms. So who was the
Speaker 1: first witch you saw on screen? Caroline? I don't remember.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I have any hunches. I mean it
Speaker 1: was I mean, speaking of the wicked Witch, it was
Speaker 1: probably the Wizard of Oz. I'm guessing mine was the
Speaker 1: Wizard of Oz too. Yeah, but it was it was
Speaker 1: shortly thereafter. I mean, I know I saw the Wizard
Speaker 1: of Oz for the first time. I was very very young,
Speaker 1: but it wasn't too long after that I saw the
Speaker 1: roll Doll movie interpretation of of Witches. Yeah, I gotta
Speaker 1: tell you, I am obviously really catching up in terms
Speaker 1: of pop culture, which is because like I said, growing up,
Speaker 1: which is we're not something that we're welcome in my household.
Speaker 1: And you know, my parents were doing and what they
Speaker 1: thought was right. But I feel a little sad that
Speaker 1: I'm not as as which knowledgeable as well you and
Speaker 1: like all of my peers, like anyone of your generation. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's fine, but it's it is really fascinating. Even even
Speaker 1: I who have not seen all of the possible witch
Speaker 1: movies their artists, e um, can understand this historic symbolism
Speaker 1: that we do see reflected in a lot of our
Speaker 1: most beloved witches on screen. Because what do witches represent?
Speaker 1: I mean power, they really connote women's power, you have intuition, fertility, sisterhood,
Speaker 1: spinsterhood even Yeah, and they're also defying that normal patriotic
Speaker 1: normal patriotic they hate this country. They're all communists. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not to mention, of course, they're defying the normal patriarchal
Speaker 1: social order. And what I love, you know, talking about
Speaker 1: power and the social order and everything. And I'm going
Speaker 1: to continue sighting the movie Witches is that these women,
Speaker 1: for instance, in that movie, all of these witches are
Speaker 1: together at a convention at a hotel. And it's so
Speaker 1: funny thinking back on that movie and realizing that the
Speaker 1: way that strikes me now is like the way that's
Speaker 1: so many business centric like women's organization conferences go. I mean,
Speaker 1: they're not witches. So what do you mean by that?
Speaker 1: Oh well, it's just it's like it's it's say, a
Speaker 1: witchy version of networking. God, is what it feels like.
Speaker 1: You've got all of these witches at a convention at
Speaker 1: a hotel. They're having like their annual meeting, their netwitching.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's so perfect. That's so perfect. Can we start
Speaker 1: that LinkedIn spin off site net witching that witching? Well yeah,
Speaker 1: and we need to actually have that in real life. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm serious. We're gonna host it. Right, We've got so
Speaker 1: many stuff on invertold you side businesses just popping up
Speaker 1: left and right. We should really start to write them
Speaker 1: down at some point. I do like it though, And
Speaker 1: listeners will email us in like a few weeks later
Speaker 1: and like remind us of bands or random products. So
Speaker 1: we've talked about launching. Yeah, we still get emails about
Speaker 1: the potential Sminty menstrel Cup Men's stroll cups, menstrel cup
Speaker 1: Well back to witches though, from periods to witches. I
Speaker 1: feel like that is a perfect segue or a book title,
Speaker 1: from periods to witches. Um. Someone who wrote an entire
Speaker 1: book about which is Catherine Howe, who wrote the Penguin
Speaker 1: Book of which is put this Whole, which symbolism perfectly
Speaker 1: in an interview with NPR where she said, what made
Speaker 1: which is dangerous in the early modern period makes them enticing.
Speaker 1: Now here's a case of a figure, a person, a
Speaker 1: woman generally laying claim to power that doesn't belong to her,
Speaker 1: that should belong only to God, or should belong only
Speaker 1: to people in authority, and she's taking that power for herself. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the New Inquiry echoed the sentiment a little more poetically.
Speaker 1: I would argue they sounded like they got drunk, they
Speaker 1: maybe had too much red wine and wrote an ode
Speaker 1: to which is uh? They said, in a male supremacist society,
Speaker 1: female power must logically appear illogical, mysterious, intimate threatening, which
Speaker 1: stands for all of those unnamable shadow acts of disappearance
Speaker 1: and withdrawal, self cultivation and self medication that a leude
Speaker 1: the social and sexual order. So which is I mean,
Speaker 1: which is are a lot to put it very eloquently, Yeah,
Speaker 1: wrapped up in that witch hat, You've got a whole
Speaker 1: lot of messing with convention So Hollywood so called Season
Speaker 1: of the Witch. Yeah, donovan reference any fans out there.
Speaker 1: Uh makes so much sense because this is such a
Speaker 1: rich character to play around with, and it's one that
Speaker 1: has been really popular in the past four or five years,
Speaker 1: especially with help from Harry Potter. We have her Maiani,
Speaker 1: who pops up on every single listical about best most
Speaker 1: favorite awesome witches in pop culture of all time. Well,
Speaker 1: so does Maggie Smith's character, right, Yeah, Yeah, she's a
Speaker 1: common one too. I'm gonna admit something, admit I have
Speaker 1: never never read, nor have I watched any Harry Potter
Speaker 1: Caroline are in box? Like just hear it from I
Speaker 1: just heard the tippy typing of people being like, what
Speaker 1: is wrong with you? And I don't I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just let it pass me by as a social phenomenon.
Speaker 1: Do you need to take a vacation so you can
Speaker 1: read up Caroline. I'm shaking my head at you, conquer
Speaker 1: only for the pronunciation of Caroline. Um well, I don't
Speaker 1: know about any of that, but I do know that
Speaker 1: Maggie Smith looks great in a witch hat. She does?
Speaker 1: She does? I mean, I say, you know, uh, this
Speaker 1: fall bonnets were supposed to be, you know, come into fashion.
Speaker 1: It's not a true thing. That was a true thing,
Speaker 1: and bonnets are not going to happen. But I would
Speaker 1: be behind trying to make witch hats happen, you know,
Speaker 1: could we get can we combine the slouchy beanie and
Speaker 1: the witch hat? Absolutely? Caroline? Um, But back to television, okay,
Speaker 1: sure again. So it's really funny to see how the
Speaker 1: witch craze has been reported in entertainment media. UM. And
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, the vampire craze kind of gave way
Speaker 1: to witches on TV and in the l A Times
Speaker 1: Melissa Mayor's reports for network seeking female viewers and mean
Speaker 1: girl heroines, which is offered the perfect double threat because
Speaker 1: which is cast girls quite literally in control not only
Speaker 1: of their lives but of entire worlds. So you have
Speaker 1: witches appearing that you're in true blood the CW's the
Speaker 1: Secret Circle and a wicked witch slash queen appearance and
Speaker 1: once upon a time, so everyone's like, oh, my gosh,
Speaker 1: which is here everywhere. We're having a witch moment, and
Speaker 1: we were apparently still having a witch moment, according to
Speaker 1: Mary McNamara over at the l A Times. Uh. She
Speaker 1: gives the examples of American horror story Coven, which is
Speaker 1: apparently very controversial among people, depending on if you think
Speaker 1: it's like the best thing ever or the worst thing ever.
Speaker 1: So we'll talk about it, Caroline good, okay, Also the
Speaker 1: Witches of East End, and which characters appearing on Sleepy Hollow,
Speaker 1: the Originals, Supernatural and more. And if it sounds like
Speaker 1: I'm reading off a lift, I am, because I haven't
Speaker 1: watched any of these things. I'm sorry to say. I'm sorry. Well,
Speaker 1: she I mean there were so many though that A. Yes,
Speaker 1: it does make up a list, and McNamara declares the
Speaker 1: year of the Witch. I mean, so, I mean arguably
Speaker 1: we've already past peak witch. Oh, I don't know, you
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, I mean, like, I agree, I think
Speaker 1: that we're we're still really enamored with witches. Um. But
Speaker 1: McNamara really got me thinking a lot about this longstanding
Speaker 1: pop cultural symbolism, of which is because um, she tidally
Speaker 1: sums up their appeal to television creators, saying and a quote,
Speaker 1: and it's a long quote, but it's a good one,
Speaker 1: which is are handy solution to other more pragmatic narrative problems.
Speaker 1: They can be old and wise and still beautiful. There's
Speaker 1: that ages in Caroline. They're allowed to commit acts of fury,
Speaker 1: sex and violence, still the hallmarks of important drama that
Speaker 1: would be far less acceptable from a mortal female character.
Speaker 1: And they often come in groups, which is how television
Speaker 1: writers like women. And I'm now imagining Sex and the City,
Speaker 1: Sex and the City recast as a coven. Were they
Speaker 1: just a coven the whole time? Yeah, I mean that
Speaker 1: just changes everything. It's like Garfield without dialogue, Garfield without John,
Speaker 1: you know, it's John without garth people, which is so depressing.
Speaker 1: But no, I think that's such a fascinating, perfect quote
Speaker 1: that hits all of it right on the head in
Speaker 1: terms of, uh, allowing women characters to get away with
Speaker 1: stuff that they wouldn't normally. I mean that's so it's
Speaker 1: not necessarily something I think about all the time, but like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's absolutely true. Imagine if you had just your
Speaker 1: run of the mill average late on television who was
Speaker 1: being in some way sort of evil or doing something
Speaker 1: perceived as evil, we wouldn't have any sympathy for her,
Speaker 1: whereas if she's a witch, it's like, oh, well, it
Speaker 1: makes sense, I love this, Let her do more of
Speaker 1: it well and interesting too to think about the whole
Speaker 1: age beauty thing that we often see come up with witches,
Speaker 1: where it's so rare to see a woman portrayed as
Speaker 1: hauntingly beautiful and mesmerizing if she is over a certain age, right,
Speaker 1: But that's often so part like a crux of these older,
Speaker 1: more evil witches. Evil witches. You know, you can't be
Speaker 1: a good witch necessarily and be old and beautiful. But
Speaker 1: if you're both, then you're probably more evil. I don't
Speaker 1: know from my from my casual which observations that's anecdotal. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, but that's that's like such a plot device anyway.
Speaker 1: I mean, you mentioned how vampires gave way to witches
Speaker 1: in terms of pop culture craze. Sort of combining these
Speaker 1: ideas is the movie adaptation of one of Anne Rice's novels.
Speaker 1: I can't remember what the title is now, but it's
Speaker 1: the one where Aaliyah is starring as the ancient vampire
Speaker 1: queen and how gorgeous she is, and she's so beautiful,
Speaker 1: and her beauty is this big thing. And she's also
Speaker 1: very young and gorgeous and all of that stuff to
Speaker 1: to super emphasize how beautiful she is. But being that
Speaker 1: she's a vampire queen, she's also a bajillion years old,
Speaker 1: and it's that same thing. It's like, oh, well, here's
Speaker 1: a woman of a of a significant age, but oh
Speaker 1: it's it's Aaliyah. Don't worry, she's still real pretty well.
Speaker 1: And speaking of the vampire thing too, something it might
Speaker 1: have been McNamara uh and some other people have pointed out,
Speaker 1: is how interesting it is that which is followed up
Speaker 1: on the heels of the vampire craze, because vampire lore
Speaker 1: sprang out of Victorian panic over female sexuality essentially, and
Speaker 1: so to then have these powerful, often sexual, self possessed
Speaker 1: women and follow in the wake of the vampire craze
Speaker 1: might say something too, including that I might be reading
Speaker 1: a lot into television. Well, no, I mean also uh,
Speaker 1: pop culturally speaking, um, which is this entire episode? Um.
Speaker 1: More recently, all the representations of vampires for the most
Speaker 1: part have been dudes, like look at Twilight, you know,
Speaker 1: like the handsome, shiny vampire man boy. But now you
Speaker 1: were getting more and more witches and they're they're all handsome,
Speaker 1: handsome women. Handsome some handsome women, which very much a
Speaker 1: side note. I like the adjective handsome for women. I
Speaker 1: say we bring it back, Katherine Hepburn, What a handsome woman.
Speaker 1: I'm going to offer you a transition now, Kristen. Yes,
Speaker 1: one handsome woman that we can talk about is one
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Montgomery. Oh, she of bo witch fame indeed. Okay,
Speaker 1: So here's the thing listeners to keep in mind as
Speaker 1: we're talking about all of this symbolism of witches, and
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to women's power and sexual agency.
Speaker 1: When we look at old school witches in pop culture,
Speaker 1: a lot of times the name of the game is
Speaker 1: to repress your witchiness in order to better fit into
Speaker 1: society's little boxes, or to use your powers, however expressed
Speaker 1: or repressed, to serve the men in your life. So again,
Speaker 1: going back to Mary McNamara's l a Times piece, she
Speaker 1: notes the social symbolism of which is on TV starting
Speaker 1: with Samantha Stevens played by no twitching Elizabeth Montgomery on
Speaker 1: but which which premiered in nineteen sixty four, notably the
Speaker 1: same year that the feminine mystique hit bookshelves. Yeah, so,
Speaker 1: at the same time that Betty for Danna is saying
Speaker 1: that housewives are afraid of asking the question that's bouncing
Speaker 1: around in their brains, of the question that has no name, Caroline,
Speaker 1: this all, Samantha the Witch is emphatically saying, yes, this
Speaker 1: is all, and it's everything. She her entire happiness is
Speaker 1: wrapped up in her devotion to Darren and Judy. D
Speaker 1: O'Reilly wrote an entire book about this so called Bewitched
Speaker 1: effect and the bewitched archetype. The book is Bewitched Again,
Speaker 1: Supernaturally Powerful Women on Television to two thousand eleven, and
Speaker 1: she really put a lot of these pieces together. It
Speaker 1: was really interesting reading so deeply into Bewitched because I
Speaker 1: had never before felt angry feelings about Bewitched. I'd really
Speaker 1: never felt feelings about Bewitched at all, and then it
Speaker 1: made you upset. It did. Yeah, it got my panties
Speaker 1: a little bit. In a twist, I've got to tell you, well,
Speaker 1: she quotes Samantha Stevens, which is obviously Elizabeth Montgomery's character
Speaker 1: in which as saying I happened to think cooking on
Speaker 1: the stove is more fun than using witchcraft lies Steven's
Speaker 1: you know that's a lie. Um, what would Indra say
Speaker 1: to that? You know? She has a quotes TV Guide
Speaker 1: in a profile of Elizabeth Montgomery and her husband Bill Asher,
Speaker 1: who plays Darren, saying that this character of Samantha would
Speaker 1: rather scrub the floor on her hands and knees for
Speaker 1: the man she loves. It is emotional satisfaction she craves.
Speaker 1: And I just I'm like, I'm just imagining, like being
Speaker 1: in a real, like actual adult couple where people have
Speaker 1: to clean up after each other and like take care
Speaker 1: of a home together, And I'm like, I would not
Speaker 1: rather scrub the floor on my hands and knees as
Speaker 1: a way to show love. I'd rather use my freaking witchcraft.
Speaker 1: Speak for yourself. We all know you love to load
Speaker 1: the dishwasher, and honestly I do too. I read do
Speaker 1: the way that my boyfriend does it. But here's the thing.
Speaker 1: We might be jumping ahead of ourselves a tiny bit
Speaker 1: for listeners who aren't familiar with the Bewitched premise, Let's
Speaker 1: let him know what's going on here. Because it's not
Speaker 1: just the thing of Samantha Stevens is a nineteen fifties
Speaker 1: housewife or should I say nineteen sixties housewife and also
Speaker 1: a witch. I mean the in the pilot, we have
Speaker 1: her and Darren get married, and on the wedding night
Speaker 1: she finally reveals that she's a witch, and he flips
Speaker 1: out and he's like, the only way I'm going to
Speaker 1: stay married to you is if you keep your witchcraft
Speaker 1: in check. I didn't marry a witch. I married a
Speaker 1: wife and also learn how to do all of the
Speaker 1: domestic goddess stuff. Yeah, and also go to dinner I
Speaker 1: think every Friday. It is at his mother's house. So
Speaker 1: he has his whole list of requirements for her. And
Speaker 1: she is like, Okay, I think you're I mean, your
Speaker 1: jaw is just so square. I must I must relent.
Speaker 1: I don't mind. But that whole premise was perfectly normal
Speaker 1: for the audience back then. Yeah, I mean, keep in mind.
Speaker 1: In that same TV Guide article that I mentioned, and
Speaker 1: it was in n there was one was he a
Speaker 1: TV executive. He was someone who was commenting on this show,
Speaker 1: and he said, a witch who's interested in being a
Speaker 1: housewife to an American male is interesting. If she just
Speaker 1: went around being a witch, nobody would care. Basically that
Speaker 1: Darren is uh Samantha's motivation for doing anything anything, And
Speaker 1: it's so fascinating to see how all of the profiles
Speaker 1: of Elizabeth Montgomery at the time emphasized her devotion to
Speaker 1: her husband, who was also a producer on the show,
Speaker 1: and so they kind of tried to like cast them
Speaker 1: publicity wise as the real life the Witched couple. Oh,
Speaker 1: but don't worry. She loves doing chores. She really loves
Speaker 1: doing chores, and she never wants to go do press
Speaker 1: and have to travel without him. So even though she
Speaker 1: might play this witch, calm down, She's actually just a
Speaker 1: wife who at one point they were talking about how
Speaker 1: she still managed to get up before him and make
Speaker 1: him breakfast in bed with like orange juice and coffee.
Speaker 1: Um every morning, because because Bill breakfasts in bed. Kristen
Speaker 1: lucky Bill I would loved it. Well, my boyfriend does
Speaker 1: actually cook breakfast. Um, I am I'm a lucky girl.
Speaker 1: You're a Bill. You're a lucky Bill. I am Bill,
Speaker 1: I am Bill. We're all bill um hashtag We're all
Speaker 1: bill um. But it was just one more supernatural sitcoms
Speaker 1: of that era, which I think is interesting also in context.
Speaker 1: You've got I dream of Genie, my living doll, which
Speaker 1: that's a robot, my mother, the car that's a that's
Speaker 1: a car, the Flying Nun, the Adams Family. Um, these
Speaker 1: shows are all equating the bizarre, the alien, the magical
Speaker 1: with the feminine. But like I mentioned earlier, all of
Speaker 1: these women in these shows have these fantastic extra powers
Speaker 1: that tended to just be used for the benefit of
Speaker 1: the men in their lives. Basically, I mean, especially if
Speaker 1: you look at my living doll, which is like it's
Speaker 1: a robot for the guy, I feel like that could
Speaker 1: go a really negative direction. And I dream of Genie.
Speaker 1: She's like so submissive, she just and and she's adorable.
Speaker 1: And yes, it's a cute show and it's adorable anthers,
Speaker 1: but it's such like a capsule of its time of like,
Speaker 1: I am a magical, empowered woman, but I'm going to
Speaker 1: set that aside to do whatever i can to empower
Speaker 1: you man in my life. And also Caroline, I know
Speaker 1: Jennie Barbara Eden was not allowed to show her belly
Speaker 1: button on television. Oh that's right. She was the first
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift. Yeah, well Taylor Swift is allowed to obviously,
Speaker 1: she just won't. She won't. Um. But if we look
Speaker 1: at the witch it is interesting, as O'Reilly notes in
Speaker 1: her book of how Samantha's witchcraft problematizes the household environment.
Speaker 1: So she asserts that this witchcraft is symbolizing womanly rebellion.
Speaker 1: And you do see this like market contrast and how
Speaker 1: conventionally attract Jove, Samantha is versus and Dora, who is
Speaker 1: her unmarried, wild red haired mother who's just flitting about
Speaker 1: and hates the fact that Samantha is so devoted to Darren. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think hashtag we're all in Dora. Yes, it's not
Speaker 1: that you Okay, wait before you write me a letter.
Speaker 1: It's not that we shouldn't be devoted to our loved ones,
Speaker 1: our partners. I'm just saying we could all use a
Speaker 1: little bit more eyeshadow. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. So, Yeah,
Speaker 1: some do see Bewitched as a landmark for women because
Speaker 1: of its break from traditional form and for Samantha's ability
Speaker 1: to wield some power over her household. But it's interesting
Speaker 1: that you can literally use the same evidence from the
Speaker 1: show to argue that it's empowering versus it's disempowering. So
Speaker 1: you've got things like the idea that Darren in in
Speaker 1: the figures of his wife and his mother in law
Speaker 1: and and also Samantha's aunts, that he's confronting this like
Speaker 1: powerful magical matriarchy and and that is amazing and empowering. Um,
Speaker 1: you've got the idea that being a housewife, being Darren's
Speaker 1: wife and giving up or promising to give up her
Speaker 1: witchcraft was her choice, and that that's empowering that she
Speaker 1: chose that life over another. But the thing is, her
Speaker 1: power still is all for the sake of Darren and housework.
Speaker 1: So she promises him right that she's not going to
Speaker 1: use it, and then when he's away at work, she's like, well,
Speaker 1: I'll just use a spell here to to do the
Speaker 1: dishes and have the dishes be clean. And then when
Speaker 1: Darren is like struggling at work, she's like, well, I'll
Speaker 1: just use a spell to like help him along. But
Speaker 1: the thing is, like you said, her magic always ends
Speaker 1: up like causing wacky hijinks to happen, to ensue and
Speaker 1: causes problems. So for that reason, O'Reilly is less convinced
Speaker 1: that she that Samantha is as empowered of a character
Speaker 1: as we really really really want her to be. Yeah,
Speaker 1: using that same evidence of choosing housewifery. Um, whereas some
Speaker 1: people would say, hey, the choice is empowering, some other
Speaker 1: people would argue, well, she chose the safe, non magical option,
Speaker 1: but really fascinating nonetheless, to just consider it in that
Speaker 1: cultural context, because it does seem to present just a
Speaker 1: snapshot of like, of things that were happening beyond the
Speaker 1: set and outside of of people's homes. As times we're
Speaker 1: starting to change for women. And speaking of that, um,
Speaker 1: O'Reilly notes how in the seventies, these more supernatural women
Speaker 1: like say I dream of Genie or be Whiched give
Speaker 1: way to super heroin so you have Wonder Woman and
Speaker 1: the Bionic Woman, for instance, and then in the eighties
Speaker 1: and nineties you have superpowered women focused on quote proving
Speaker 1: themselves to male authority figures and using their powers to
Speaker 1: serve others and fearing repercussions if their powers are revealed.
Speaker 1: And this is a continual theme of hitting up against
Speaker 1: male authority figures and of the fear of being mothered
Speaker 1: essentially by virtue of your power being put on public display. Yeah.
Speaker 1: She sites shows like Charmed, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and Buffy.
Speaker 1: She says they presented a veneer of empowerment while facing
Speaker 1: constraint after constraint. And I wasn't really into Sabrina the
Speaker 1: Teenage which I was super into Buffy. I watched Charmed
Speaker 1: in the beginning, and I just love to think of
Speaker 1: Shannon Doherty as a witch. I just think that that
Speaker 1: that was perfectly cast. She's got a witchy face. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: and she's got a witchy reputation. It's got a witchy reputation.
Speaker 1: I would take that as a compliment. I would not
Speaker 1: mean it otherwise. Um. And it is in this era
Speaker 1: that these pop cultural whitches are often considered freaks and
Speaker 1: are still fighting against domestic related constraints. Not terribly removed
Speaker 1: from Samantha Stevens, although Buffy probably far more removed, but
Speaker 1: you still have you know, like Sabrina having to deal
Speaker 1: with things at school and then her house, and a
Speaker 1: lot of times like the girls in Charmed are like
Speaker 1: at their house right, and like dealing with dealing with
Speaker 1: life is three sisters who are witches and handsome magical men.
Speaker 1: Oh man, I love a handsome, magical man. And this
Speaker 1: was something too that jumped out to McNamara and writing
Speaker 1: about pop culture's love of witches in the l A Times,
Speaker 1: because she says that these what she calls supernaturally powerful
Speaker 1: women are usually under watch by mail authority figures and
Speaker 1: are usually compelled to use their power in service of
Speaker 1: other people rather than their self. Whereas she writes and
Speaker 1: start contrast, supernaturally powerful male character is found on programs
Speaker 1: such as small Ville and The Dead Zone do not
Speaker 1: experience these same constraints. So it's like, even when we're
Speaker 1: which is, or we're supernaturally powered in some kind of way,
Speaker 1: we're still women. Yeah. And one of the examples that
Speaker 1: she cites, and speaking of Buffy, is Buffy's relationship not
Speaker 1: a very good relationship with her high school principle, who
Speaker 1: expels there because he thinks that she killed another slayer
Speaker 1: when in fact that slayer was killed by a vampire.
Speaker 1: Take your breath, um, But yeah, and so there's that
Speaker 1: like male authority, male power uh up again butting up
Speaker 1: against like sort of a more innocent, spunky but powerful
Speaker 1: young girl. So basically, which is are us hashtag, hashtag.
Speaker 1: We have so many hashtags from this episodo, which is
Speaker 1: our us. That would be a great store, that would
Speaker 1: be a good another side business for us, Caroline. The
Speaker 1: empire continues to grow. Um. But here's the thing, it
Speaker 1: is usually very limited for trail of who us is.
Speaker 1: If we if we look at most of our pop
Speaker 1: cultural witches, they're typically white, middle class, conventionally attractive, straight,
Speaker 1: and able bodied. But I mean we would argue that
Speaker 1: maybe it has to be this way in order for
Speaker 1: Hollywood to sign off on it. I mean, if they're
Speaker 1: gonna build a whole franchise around it, then yeah, you've
Speaker 1: got to make them um attractive in this way because
Speaker 1: witch crones, those evil, old warty crones gonnaly be evil,
Speaker 1: and the prettiness mollifies the transgressive aspects of practicing witchcraft.
Speaker 1: So basically, it's like our to bring the teenage witch
Speaker 1: were an unfortunate looking girl, would she have been is
Speaker 1: popular or did we need her to look kind of
Speaker 1: cute in order for us to be like, okay, cool
Speaker 1: that we like that combination of like you've got a
Speaker 1: cute face and you can also be witchy. It helps
Speaker 1: that she was Clarissa explains at all mean that's true. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean you've got the example also, though, of Melissandra
Speaker 1: on Game of Thrones, who is like exceedingly beautiful and always,
Speaker 1: even though it's so cold outside and she's always in
Speaker 1: the snow, she's wearing dresses that are cut down to
Speaker 1: a belly button. Alessandra, come on, I know your hair
Speaker 1: doesn't keep you that warm. Put on a shirt. Do
Speaker 1: you want a hoodie? Cut? I just always want to
Speaker 1: give her a hoodie. Well, Caroline, you clearly don't know
Speaker 1: that which blood is much hotter than human blood. She
Speaker 1: is always setting people on fire. Uh so that's the thing.
Speaker 1: But I mean a counter example would be true bloods
Speaker 1: Black male, which Lafayette very true. Yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think there have been a few more examples of diversifying,
Speaker 1: Which is probably most prominently of late would be American
Speaker 1: horror story Coven, which presented age wise and ethnicity wise,
Speaker 1: a far more diverse coven than we've probably ever seen
Speaker 1: on network television. But a lot of people were pretty
Speaker 1: disappointed with it in terms of how Ryan Murphy I mean,
Speaker 1: and this is something that um, Ryan Murphy I think
Speaker 1: just kind of tends to do with a lot of
Speaker 1: his shows, and yes, I have been watching Scream Queens
Speaker 1: is focusing the plot more around unquote cat fighting among
Speaker 1: the witches and also some kind of straight up racist
Speaker 1: e portrayals of the black witches that left a lot
Speaker 1: of people scratching their heads. Um, So a lot of
Speaker 1: people felt disempowered by Covin. Yeah. I talked to a
Speaker 1: Holly it's stuck in this in history class about this
Speaker 1: because she was like, what are you guys doing this
Speaker 1: week time? I'm like, witches? Oh my god, you have
Speaker 1: to watch American horror Story, Kevin. And what did she
Speaker 1: think about? She freaking loved it. Really, She strongly disagrees
Speaker 1: with the idea that a all they're doing is portraying
Speaker 1: these women of catfighting and infighting and be that it's
Speaker 1: disempowered ring at all. Granted, I mean she's a super
Speaker 1: fan and all that stuff, Like, I've never seen it.
Speaker 1: All I know is that I Kristen, and I read
Speaker 1: this article um that was describing how disappointing it was
Speaker 1: for people who wanted it to have been so much
Speaker 1: more for for showing both powerful and empowered women working
Speaker 1: together and not just focused on men or relationships or
Speaker 1: marriage and babies or anything like that. Um, and how
Speaker 1: it fell short in a lot of people's minds. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean that was one article though. Yeah then, but
Speaker 1: so what though did Holly like about it, aside from
Speaker 1: like disagreeing with what critics had to say. Oh, I
Speaker 1: mean she she completely on the opposite end of it,
Speaker 1: thought it was empowering, and she thought it was She
Speaker 1: just loves witchy things and thought that these women were incredible,
Speaker 1: and that Jessica Lang and Angela Bassett were incredible. She
Speaker 1: loved the relationships that these women had and that they
Speaker 1: had power. She she loves Kathy Bates and thought Kathy
Speaker 1: Bates was great. Although several places that we looked at
Speaker 1: had Kathy it's like the most problematic, but I don't know,
Speaker 1: I haven't seen it. Maybe, well it could also be
Speaker 1: an example of one of those things where it's like
Speaker 1: everything you like will ultimately be problematic. Yeah, that that
Speaker 1: is the true statement always, And maybe we should have
Speaker 1: Holly back on just to talk about Kevin. Doesn't matter
Speaker 1: if Halloween has long passed, Hollyween. Hollyween, So, I mean, nevertheless,
Speaker 1: any kind of problematic portrayals aside and I only say
Speaker 1: problematic in that goofy voice, because yes, it has become
Speaker 1: a word that has bandied about far too much and
Speaker 1: it's kind of losing its meaning. But um, all of
Speaker 1: these witches that we're talking about still often make for
Speaker 1: a vast majority of us ultra satisfying female characters. We
Speaker 1: love to see witches. So who are our favorites? Because
Speaker 1: one of my one of one thing that delighted me
Speaker 1: the most to discover and researching for this episode is
Speaker 1: just how many best of there are. It's like, if
Speaker 1: you have a blog, if you have a lady site
Speaker 1: of some sort, you've gotta have some kind of roundup
Speaker 1: of your favorite witches. Well, I think it's an excellent
Speaker 1: convergence of things we've talked about before in terms of
Speaker 1: like fandom and girls fandom in particular, and the fact
Speaker 1: that you've got these characters who are female and who
Speaker 1: are empowered to some degree, and so it makes sense
Speaker 1: to me that you would have a bunch of like
Speaker 1: top ten, top twenty, top a million, which characters on
Speaker 1: television and movies. Well, and one thing that didn't strike
Speaker 1: me until Kelly Busman over at Jezebel pointed out was
Speaker 1: that if you have a show or a movie about witches,
Speaker 1: it probably automatically passes the Bechdel tests because you have
Speaker 1: a group of women with names talking to each other
Speaker 1: and probably not about dudes all the time. Not about
Speaker 1: dudes all the time. Although you know, one of my favorite, favorite, favorite,
Speaker 1: favorite favorite which movies is hocus Pocus, and I would
Speaker 1: have to go back and see for sure, because the
Speaker 1: whole thing is throughout that whole movie they're so trying
Speaker 1: to uh, they're trying to destroy Thackeray Banks, who is
Speaker 1: a little boy who then turns into a cat. Have
Speaker 1: you seen have you seen hocus Pocus? Oh god, it's
Speaker 1: so good. We should totally. I don't know if anyone
Speaker 1: would tune in for like a two hour periscope, but
Speaker 1: we should totally periscope was watching that or at least
Speaker 1: live tweeted it is my favorite. But yeah, they are
Speaker 1: very concerned with with killing Sachery Banks and so it's
Speaker 1: a fabulous movie. But they do talk about a boy
Speaker 1: quite a bit. Do they have a conversation just about
Speaker 1: the cat? Maybe we just refer to it as the cat.
Speaker 1: Maybe that could count. Let's do that. Let's have an
Speaker 1: event where we live tweet checking to see if hocus
Speaker 1: Pocus passes the Bechdel test. Hello, I'm sure it does
Speaker 1: at some point. That's that's the stuff that the Internet
Speaker 1: is made of, Caroline, Yeah, exactly. I mean early on
Speaker 1: in the movie. I think they're just like casting spells
Speaker 1: and concerned with each other's yes, having makeover montages. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't know. That's another movie. Um So, if we were
Speaker 1: to amass our witch squad hashtag witch squad goals, who
Speaker 1: would be in it? Well, for sure, I would say
Speaker 1: the Sanders and sisters from hocus Pocus. I would also
Speaker 1: say the two Ants and the two Nieces from Practical Magic,
Speaker 1: which is another one of my favorite favorite movies, Andrew
Speaker 1: Bullock classic. Well, also Stevie Nicks killing it on the soundtrack,
Speaker 1: because you know she her whole witchy woman thing, Rannon,
Speaker 1: that's all that stuff, keep going. No, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I will not. I'd also want um Nancy Downs from
Speaker 1: The Craft, which is for as a box character, just
Speaker 1: to like be my muscle. But also we can't leave
Speaker 1: out Robin Tuney from that movie. She played Sarah because
Speaker 1: she's like the good witch. Yeah. I liked I liked
Speaker 1: her a lot Nancy Downs. I'm sorry, I don't think
Speaker 1: that Nancy could be part of my squad because her
Speaker 1: power might get out of control and I would have
Speaker 1: to bind her, and then she find out that I
Speaker 1: bound her, and then we'd have a fight. Now I'm
Speaker 1: just saying we would just continually bind her finding herself
Speaker 1: when we hang out, Nancy, would you put it out
Speaker 1: and then we bind her? Let's find Nancy again just
Speaker 1: getting out of control? Um? What about what about her Miami?
Speaker 1: Would you want her mini there or would she call
Speaker 1: too many of the shots? Oh? I don't know. I
Speaker 1: haven't have I have no cultural reference for Harry Potter,
Speaker 1: but I mean I know a lot of people love
Speaker 1: her Moony and and her real life equivalent, and Watson
Speaker 1: is like all hashtag key for she, So I mean
Speaker 1: she can come alounch Emma Watson, this is your open
Speaker 1: invitation to join stuff. One never told you Switch Squad
Speaker 1: are coming. Someone let her press person know. Um, you
Speaker 1: know who I would not invite in my Witch squad
Speaker 1: having just seen it. And I haven't been able to
Speaker 1: get this off my chest yet this episode. Okay, Louise
Speaker 1: Miller played by Robin Lively of Teen Witch because Teen Witch.
Speaker 1: While it does have some of the best rap scenes
Speaker 1: ever put on film, um I did not support the
Speaker 1: premise of that movie where she learns that she's a
Speaker 1: witch and she uses her witch power to make this
Speaker 1: handsome ll Bean catalog looking guy fall in love with her,
Speaker 1: and it suggests in the film through some very close up,
Speaker 1: very tongue heavy French kissing in a like random barn
Speaker 1: or something that they run across, that they have sex
Speaker 1: and she's like, oh no, what am I gonna do?
Speaker 1: But the moral of the story is that he fell
Speaker 1: in love with her for real z s and she
Speaker 1: doesn't need to be a witch anymore because now her
Speaker 1: hair is big and the popular guy still likes her
Speaker 1: even though they've had sex, and it was just awful.
Speaker 1: So it's just an when is it? When was it made?
Speaker 1: I am guessing in like the late eighties early nineties,
Speaker 1: so it's like an eighties update of Bewitched, sort of
Speaker 1: like she's giving up her power for a dude. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: um I was surprised at how how upset I was
Speaker 1: at the end the credit started rolling and I was like,
Speaker 1: is is it? This can't be it? Well, I would
Speaker 1: also want to invite. Speaking of of the movie, which
Speaker 1: is starring Angelica Houston, I would also I would not
Speaker 1: invite her because she's evil, but I would invite the
Speaker 1: main character boys aunt, who's the good witch. She's literally
Speaker 1: dressed in white and she's blonde, compared to Angelica Houston,
Speaker 1: who's dresed in black and has black hair. Um, and
Speaker 1: this woman is like super Oh no, it's not his aunt.
Speaker 1: His aunt takes into the conference. It's the white witch
Speaker 1: at the end who comes and turns him from a
Speaker 1: mouse back into a boy. I am sorry, listeners, but
Speaker 1: that woman, I think she drives a convertible. I would
Speaker 1: invite her. Well, this sounds like a pretty solid witch
Speaker 1: squad so far, but I'm sure that listeners have more
Speaker 1: suggestions for our which squad? Who else should we invite? Oh,
Speaker 1: they'll probably say Willow from Buffy. Yeah, I would say, well,
Speaker 1: you don't want evil Willow as long as it's good Willow,
Speaker 1: have her come on. I mean also to Willow. Talk
Speaker 1: about some TV history, one of the first positive portrayals
Speaker 1: of a lesbian couple on television. We gotta do a
Speaker 1: Buffy to the Vampire Slayer episode at some point. Let's
Speaker 1: get back and rewatch all of it. Let's watch some
Speaker 1: hocus Pocus, Let's watch some Buffy. Let's well, we have
Speaker 1: to quit our day jobs to do this, but I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's just tell working. Oh so I've been
Speaker 1: Tella working wrong. Yes, yes, listeners, don't email our bosses. Well,
Speaker 1: send us all of your witchy suggestions in any theories
Speaker 1: as to why whiches are so enduring? Was there anything
Speaker 1: that we missed in this which conversation? Because there really
Speaker 1: are so many which is on film, big screen, small
Speaker 1: screen to choose from, that we couldn't possibly mention them all,
Speaker 1: including one last one Carol Mine, a movie that I
Speaker 1: want to go back and watch. Is I Married a
Speaker 1: Witch starring Veronica Lake, who was probably the most dazzling
Speaker 1: witch because that hair is perfection. Yeah, So with that,
Speaker 1: send us your witchy emails. Mom Stuff at house stuffwork
Speaker 1: dot com is our email address. You can also tweet
Speaker 1: us hashtag we are all in Dora at mom stuff
Speaker 1: podcasts or messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple
Speaker 1: of messages to share with you right now. I have
Speaker 1: a letter here from Beth in response to our ath
Speaker 1: Leisure episode. She says, I love the show. I look
Speaker 1: forward to these bi weekly forays and feminist topics. I
Speaker 1: just listen near ath leisure episode and I felt that
Speaker 1: I had to write in. You mentioned that the rise
Speaker 1: of ath leisure has led to women not dressing for
Speaker 1: a male gaze, but I have found the opposite to
Speaker 1: be true as a woman who comes from a religious background.
Speaker 1: Too many times have I heard about the sin of
Speaker 1: the yoga pant, and I appreciate that you use the
Speaker 1: Stacy London singular pant. She says, These comments, made mostly
Speaker 1: by men, point to how yoga pants help accentuate a
Speaker 1: woman's curves, driving men to a lusty distraction. Very rarely, though,
Speaker 1: is the discussion balance saying that while female clothing maybe
Speaker 1: enticing to the male gaze, it's ultimately the man's responsibility
Speaker 1: for how he responds. Instead, it quickly devolves into slut shaming,
Speaker 1: making women feel guilty for wearing almost any article of
Speaker 1: clothing that they find comfortable and or attractive, And with
Speaker 1: fashions changing, modesty is a constantly moving target that unfortunately
Speaker 1: seems to be predominantly from a male point of view.
Speaker 1: As a feminist within this conservative community, I can tell
Speaker 1: you it really steams my beings to feel subjected to
Speaker 1: these arbitrary rules. So while I've been trying to open
Speaker 1: up communications on what modesty is within my circle of influence,
Speaker 1: I also have been buying the most comfortable and cute
Speaker 1: luggings and yoga pants that I can find. I'll admit
Speaker 1: that some days when I done them, I can still
Speaker 1: feel a twinge of guilt or shame. But I try
Speaker 1: to shrug that off and walk through my life with
Speaker 1: my head held i and my stomach comfortably supported by elastic.
Speaker 1: Thanks again for such a great podcast. I always found
Speaker 1: the topics insightful and have many great discussions with friends
Speaker 1: that have started with the phrase. So I was listening
Speaker 1: to this feminist podcast today. Well, thank you, Beth. Loved
Speaker 1: your letter. Well, I've got a letter here from Jen,
Speaker 1: also about our at Leisure episode, and she writes, I
Speaker 1: had to laugh because as I'm writing this and at
Speaker 1: work in a full writing habit breaches writing socks, belt
Speaker 1: tucked in shirt and vest, boots and chaps are in
Speaker 1: the car to avoid tracking dirt everywhere. Writing clothes probably
Speaker 1: aren't what you were thinking about when you were making
Speaker 1: this podcast, but this is beginning to be more common
Speaker 1: among equestrians. The clothes we buy for writing tend to
Speaker 1: be fairly expensive as well as fashionable and flexible. The
Speaker 1: breaches I'm wearing now are literally the most comfortable pants
Speaker 1: I've ever owned, which makes sense if they need to
Speaker 1: flex and move with you as you move on the horse.
Speaker 1: I'm wearing these today because I plan on going writing
Speaker 1: right after work, but there's definitely a status symbol of
Speaker 1: wearing writing clothes in public. Not to be snobby, but
Speaker 1: there's something satisfying about wearing actual equestrian apparel while everyone
Speaker 1: around you is wearing equestrian inspired accessories that would fall
Speaker 1: apart the minute you mounted a horse. It's just the
Speaker 1: little thing that makes me smile. Anyway, I love the show.
Speaker 1: Please give the episodes coming. They make my work day
Speaker 1: fly by, and your letters help our work day fly by.
Speaker 1: And you can send them to mom Stuff at how
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com and for links to all of
Speaker 1: our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos,
Speaker 1: and podcasts, including this one with links to our sources
Speaker 1: so you can read more about all that symbolism you
Speaker 1: never knew existed and bewitched. Head on over to Stuff
Speaker 1: Mom Never told You dot Com for moral thiss and
Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Does it How stuff works dot
Speaker 1: Com