Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you from how Supports
Speaker 1: dot com. Well, welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline and
Speaker 1: I'm Christian and we are not contrary to whatever the
Speaker 1: title of this episode maybe talking about the history of
Speaker 1: witchcraft and WICCA specifically. Instead, we wanted to focus more
Speaker 1: on how both men and women throughout our modern history
Speaker 1: have used these two things Wika and Witchcraft, for sort
Speaker 1: of their own purposes, shaped the history of these things
Speaker 1: to fit narratives that were interesting and convenient for them
Speaker 1: at the time. Well, I mean, and wick is still
Speaker 1: super popular today and still has lots of feminists underpinnings
Speaker 1: as well. Absolutely WICKA and Witchcraft, although some people would
Speaker 1: say that those are interchangeable. Um, I saw it explained
Speaker 1: as like the way that Catholicism, Mr. Christianity WIKA is
Speaker 1: to Witchcraft. So WIKA has much longer ceremonies, Yeah, more
Speaker 1: smells and bells. As a family friends says, spells and bells.
Speaker 1: That does that a lot like Witchcraft. I know, all
Speaker 1: of that boiled, boiled, toil and trouble or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: I have Newts so exhausted. It's like about feminist eyes
Speaker 1: of newt today on the podcast. We're gonna cook up
Speaker 1: some potions, cast some spells hopefully on your listening ears
Speaker 1: love it um. Actual witches are listening and being like,
Speaker 1: we are being so poorly represented right now because it's
Speaker 1: not all about spell casting. Obviously it's not, because there's
Speaker 1: no such thing. Yeah, yeah, we should disspel that, Caroline,
Speaker 1: See what I did there. We're also going to dispel
Speaker 1: some other notions Kristen, namely at WICCA and witchcraft. Is
Speaker 1: this ancient connection to our matriarchal, lady loving, solely peaceful,
Speaker 1: utopian past and that it was fostered completely by women.
Speaker 1: Oh man, so many spoilers just got alerted, So many spoilers.
Speaker 1: But first, let's break down kind of what we're talking
Speaker 1: about today. We're we're talking about two main ideas Wicca,
Speaker 1: like we've said, but also this idea of the Goddess
Speaker 1: movement and Goddess feminism. Goddess blessed that whole thing that
Speaker 1: some people put on bumper stickers on their cars exactly.
Speaker 1: So the Goddess movement is the worshiping of the divine feminine,
Speaker 1: the archetypal mother, and they really pushed the idea that
Speaker 1: women need to understand their own value. And this comes
Speaker 1: into when you look at feminist Wicca in particular. So
Speaker 1: there's Wicca, which is a neopagan religion. Practitioners sometimes call
Speaker 1: themselves witches. They worship a duo of a and God
Speaker 1: and a moon goddess, although of course there are variations,
Speaker 1: but that feminist Wicca and the goddess movement are super
Speaker 1: closely aligned because feminist Wicca is a goddess religion, so
Speaker 1: maybe they don't hold that horned God in the same
Speaker 1: type of standing that they do the goddess. But it
Speaker 1: also incorporates a lot of things like green and eco
Speaker 1: politics and folk medicine, and is also super concerned with
Speaker 1: women empowering themselves. And there are all sorts of offshoots
Speaker 1: including Dianic Wicca, Native American Wicca, Greek and Egyptian lesbian separatists,
Speaker 1: wise woman healers. I mean, they are all different forms,
Speaker 1: kind of like feminism that it can take different interpretations
Speaker 1: that people can have. And I guess you would also
Speaker 1: say that they would practice through their Wicca. And I
Speaker 1: always thought that Wicca and witchcraft were these ancient practices,
Speaker 1: like a lot of people have said, I had no
Speaker 1: idea that its origins were so much more modern than
Speaker 1: all of that. And it really is back to the
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, particularly uh Masonic ritual and occult obsessions with
Speaker 1: both goddesses and matriarchies that were pretty much like in
Speaker 1: vogue during that time and mostly though bended about by
Speaker 1: dudes who were grateful not to be in those matriarchies.
Speaker 1: So the matriarchies were discussed as an example of look
Speaker 1: how far we've come. Yeah, basically when when all those
Speaker 1: moon goddesses ruled everything. Um, Yeah, when we look at
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, you have the rise of secret societies,
Speaker 1: occult practices, spiritualism, and rejection of orthodox religion. And I mean,
Speaker 1: I love this period of time because some people are
Speaker 1: really kind of losing their minds. Yeah, this is when
Speaker 1: we see a lot of mediums. You know, Kristen and
Speaker 1: I did that episode way back in the day, were
Speaker 1: mediums the first feminists. And it's so funny to me
Speaker 1: to think about it that, yes, there was a movement
Speaker 1: away from organiz as traditional religion, but much like Fox
Speaker 1: Molder Kristen, people still want to believe it's such human
Speaker 1: nature that even if you reject Christianity, in general, or Judaism,
Speaker 1: or or just a subset of either of those religions,
Speaker 1: or any religion. You still have this drive to believe
Speaker 1: in something bigger than yourself. And I think that's such
Speaker 1: a human trait. And in this case, it was all
Speaker 1: about the occult and these mystical forces that weren't really Christian,
Speaker 1: weren't really Jewish, they were something else that sort of
Speaker 1: borrowed from these new traditions that were arising in the
Speaker 1: nineteenth century. Well, and it seems like a lot of
Speaker 1: them were really enamored with the power of nature, the
Speaker 1: magic in nature. So during the Romantic period, which is
Speaker 1: in the first half of the nineteenth century, you have
Speaker 1: these mostly male German and French thinkers who are really
Speaker 1: interested in natural forces, particularly those aligned with women, because
Speaker 1: you know, as we've often talked about, you know, nature
Speaker 1: is considered very feminine and maternal. Think about fertility and
Speaker 1: all that all that jazz, all that jazz. Well you
Speaker 1: also have to uh take into consideration that around this
Speaker 1: time people are starting to sort of project a lot
Speaker 1: of meaning onto the classic gods and goddesses that have
Speaker 1: been displaced by Christianity. So all of a sudden you
Speaker 1: have a lot of people, both artists, writers, poets, who
Speaker 1: are starting to associate in their works of art, whether
Speaker 1: that is writing or like painting or sculpture. Um, they're
Speaker 1: starting to associate these gods and goddesses with the natural world,
Speaker 1: with natural mystical forces, rather than how back in ye
Speaker 1: old and Greek times people tended to look at these
Speaker 1: gods and goddesses as sort of petty, bigger holy versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves, like they all had fights, and we're cheating
Speaker 1: on each other and causing wars and strife and basically
Speaker 1: men ling in human endeavors. So the way that the
Speaker 1: Romantics were looking at him was more like, well, yeah, maybe,
Speaker 1: but they're they're mystical, and they're they're influencing nature, they're
Speaker 1: part of nature. And so this is when we also
Speaker 1: get Mother Earth and things like fairies, which were typically
Speaker 1: tiny ladies, popping up as popular deities and figures in literature.
Speaker 1: And there's a big milestone in eighteen forty nine when
Speaker 1: German classicist Edward Gerrard becomes the first to assert that
Speaker 1: all ancient goddesses derived from a single mother goddess. And
Speaker 1: this is really Caroline has made me think a lot
Speaker 1: about the title of our podcast, stuff Mom Never Told You.
Speaker 1: Should we update that to like stuff single Mother Goddess
Speaker 1: Never told you? Although the answer would be like nothing,
Speaker 1: because she's the single mother Goddess, of course she probably
Speaker 1: knows all, so it just would. But that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: she would tell us everything. She's also afraid to have
Speaker 1: the birds and bees and periods conversation. The single mother
Speaker 1: God has never prepared us for monarchy. Thanks a lot,
Speaker 1: Thanks a lot. But it's important to keep in mind
Speaker 1: that this narrative is developing despite the fact that ancient
Speaker 1: religions were polytheistic. There's really not much evidence that these societies.
Speaker 1: These ancient societies worshiped a single archetypal goddess. Yes, they
Speaker 1: had goddesses, but this man driven narrative is developing in
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century that like, oh, there was just one
Speaker 1: pure earthy mother goddess who was worshiped by all of
Speaker 1: these societies. Do you think there was sort of mixing
Speaker 1: things up with like the cults that would arise around
Speaker 1: specific gods and goddesses to like the cult of Diana
Speaker 1: or the cult of Dionysus. Men, it could be. I mean,
Speaker 1: there were there were discussions about things like the cult
Speaker 1: of of Diana. People can uh not Princess Diana listeners
Speaker 1: by the goddess Diana. Yeah, I mean there were people
Speaker 1: who were convinced that there were still Dianic cults going
Speaker 1: on in the nineteenth century, that they were just like
Speaker 1: hidden away in pockets, that we had yet to find
Speaker 1: pocket change their tiny cults, pocket pocket sized tiny cults. Um.
Speaker 1: And in eighteen sixty one you've got Swiss jurist and
Speaker 1: writer Johann yakobakafin nice pronunciation that people would disagree with you. Ah,
Speaker 1: he positive that our earliest societies were matriarchies. That sounds great,
Speaker 1: I love it. Let's stop there, feminists, and there are
Speaker 1: a number of feminist thinkers who talk a lot in
Speaker 1: terms of the ancient matriarch. This is this is I mean,
Speaker 1: this is why we're giving you this this nineteenth century
Speaker 1: history fair listeners to to explain where this idea came from. However,
Speaker 1: it wasn't a positive but coffin, I don't know if
Speaker 1: that's really h could be more of a cough and
Speaker 1: says on the cop and bo copon real popping up
Speaker 1: here and the mic he and others saw patriarchy as
Speaker 1: a victory of rationality over those feminine, those traditional feminine
Speaker 1: traits of instinct, nurturing, and closeness to nature. So basically like, yes,
Speaker 1: these ancient societies were matriarchies. I'm sure of it, because
Speaker 1: look at how powerful and amazing we are now that
Speaker 1: we've done away with all of that. Oh that's interesting.
Speaker 1: It's kind of a way to elevate and celebrate. I
Speaker 1: didn't need to make that rhyme, these patriarchal structures. And
Speaker 1: aren't we so glad we have our separate spheres and
Speaker 1: women aren't allowed to go outside and get jobs because
Speaker 1: their uteruses will float away. Some serious humble bragging happening
Speaker 1: then in this early matriarchy philosophy and theories. So by
Speaker 1: the early twentieth century it was generally assumed then that,
Speaker 1: of course, these ancient Mediterranean religions definitely worshiped a great
Speaker 1: mother Earth goddess over everything else, and drawing on nineteenth
Speaker 1: century thought, including the patronizing Victorian idea that ancient cultures
Speaker 1: didn't realize men played a role in reproduction. Basically, any
Speaker 1: archaeological sites and corresponding female figures or representations that were
Speaker 1: uncovered were thought as evidence of the goddess worship. So,
Speaker 1: for instance, one archaeological expedition that's frequently cited in UH
Speaker 1: texts about the development of this goddess worship idea is
Speaker 1: uncovering things at Minoan temples from Minoan society and finding
Speaker 1: artistic representations of women um and just assuming that they
Speaker 1: were either goddesses or that they were participating in a
Speaker 1: goddess worship ritual. There was no like, hey, maybe this
Speaker 1: could mean something else, or these women could be doing
Speaker 1: something else, like who knows, shopping, I don't know, but
Speaker 1: it was automatically assumed by a lot of these people
Speaker 1: that like, oh, no, there's just women. It just means
Speaker 1: that they're worshiping a goddess. They didn't stop to think, like,
Speaker 1: maybe something else is going on. Although I gotta say
Speaker 1: that I like the idea that in the far future
Speaker 1: that if people find the relics of my life, people
Speaker 1: would just assume, oh, evidence of the she was goddess,
Speaker 1: people just worshiping her, you know, yeah, fingers crossed with
Speaker 1: all your YouTube videos with us, with the cash of videos, like,
Speaker 1: people will automatically assume, yes, when people find the pile
Speaker 1: of my YouTube wigs be like, obviously, goddess, she had
Speaker 1: so much hair, she just disappeared. That's all that's left
Speaker 1: of her. So where does Wicca come into all of this?
Speaker 1: It makes a surprisingly late arrival in the mid twentieth
Speaker 1: century thanks to a guy named Jerry. Yeah, amateur anthropologist
Speaker 1: Gerald B. Gardner. Uh, he seems like quite a rabble rouser.
Speaker 1: This this Jerry, He belonged to an organization. It was
Speaker 1: influenced by many nineteenth century occultist groups, which themselves, by
Speaker 1: the way, ps were influenced by Freemasons. And in the
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, Gardner, having all of these influences from this
Speaker 1: like secret society that he's part of, and having read
Speaker 1: all of this stuff by the Romantic authors and poets,
Speaker 1: he introduces a religion that he calls Wicca with only
Speaker 1: one see, which he claimed, I love this. He didn't
Speaker 1: bother to say why, yes, I've developed this system of
Speaker 1: beliefs and rituals. No, he figured that that would not
Speaker 1: get his religion enough. I don't know, we would say
Speaker 1: clicks nowadays in the Internet. It wasn't clickbaitia enough. No,
Speaker 1: he claimed that he encountered these religious beliefs and practices
Speaker 1: through a friendly coven of witches with ties to the
Speaker 1: ancient religion in his organization. But the thing is like
Speaker 1: people have people like very surely they're after up to
Speaker 1: today have gone back and been like there's there's no
Speaker 1: evidence that these people even existed. But the timing of
Speaker 1: this is worth mentioning too, because Gardner kind of debuts
Speaker 1: WICCA in nineteen fifty three, which was made possible by
Speaker 1: the Witchcraft Act finally being repealed in Britain in nineteen
Speaker 1: fifty one. So it was all about timing. Otherwise it
Speaker 1: would have he would have had to have kept it
Speaker 1: more underground because it would be illegal. But like you said, Caroline,
Speaker 1: it wasn't like he was unveiling some ancient religion, but
Speaker 1: rather what was and and not to disparage Wicka at all,
Speaker 1: but in terms of what Gardner was presenting in some
Speaker 1: ways it was a hodgepodge of ideas that he collected
Speaker 1: from British occultists Elis Sir Crowley, Charles Godfrey Leland, who
Speaker 1: was a nineteenth century American amateur folklorist who had claimed
Speaker 1: he found a surviving cult of Diana in Italy. This
Speaker 1: pocket got us. He founds a pocket gottess is polypocket
Speaker 1: gott us. And mainly though he pulled from British egyptologist
Speaker 1: Margaret Alice Murray. Yeah, and Murray herself was inspired by
Speaker 1: Leyland and in the nineteen twenties developed a framework of
Speaker 1: Wickan ritual and belief. She even wrote the introduction to
Speaker 1: Gardner's nineteen fifty four books like that's how intimately aligned
Speaker 1: they were. And Margaret Alice Murray is a pretty interesting
Speaker 1: figure in and of herself, as if you couldn't tell
Speaker 1: by the whole, like egyptologist developing a Wiccan religion thing.
Speaker 1: She wrote the book The Witch Cult in Western Europe
Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty one, And I know we're backing up here,
Speaker 1: but it did regain popularity in the forties and fifties
Speaker 1: thanks to people like Gardener and the growth of what
Speaker 1: we call modern Wicca. And this witch cult book was
Speaker 1: notable because what she did was combed through accused witches
Speaker 1: confessions and treat them Egyptologists that she was as ethnographic data,
Speaker 1: in other words, considering them truthful as opposed to just
Speaker 1: being confessions under duress that aren't to be trusted. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so she noticed patterns in some of the testimony,
Speaker 1: and she wanted to know why so many of these
Speaker 1: accused witches had said similar things, like, for instance, they
Speaker 1: had signed a pack with the devil, they had engaged
Speaker 1: in ritual orgies, they possessed magical powers. To me, this
Speaker 1: just sounds like a college party so far. And she concluded,
Speaker 1: based on the testimony of people who witnessed the trials,
Speaker 1: that there had not been torture, that these people were
Speaker 1: really part of an organized religion or fertility cult that
Speaker 1: had survived in Europe since ancient time. So there's this
Speaker 1: idea again that modern Wicca and witchcraft was connected to
Speaker 1: an ancient lady religion, and all of this helped strengthen
Speaker 1: the ideas that witchcraft again was super ancient, stretched back
Speaker 1: to the Paleolithic era, and that the Church had tried
Speaker 1: to eradicate it. And in fact, she linked Witchcraft's horned
Speaker 1: god that we mentioned a while back to ancient cave paintings,
Speaker 1: and she said the leader of a coven would wear
Speaker 1: horns and was called the devil by early Christians, indicating
Speaker 1: that this is how Christianity came up with the horned
Speaker 1: depiction of the devil. Yeah, And so basically she argued
Speaker 1: that when witches on trial confessed to worshiping the devil,
Speaker 1: they weren't saying, yes, I worship our Lord Satan. That
Speaker 1: it was like, no, we are a peaceful nature people
Speaker 1: who in our coven, you know, swore loyalty to our officer, who,
Speaker 1: as part of the ritual, boots on a set of
Speaker 1: horns and we danced around a fire or whatever. So basically,
Speaker 1: these people are harmless, and witchcraft is ancient and the
Speaker 1: Church is evil. She also, by the way, did assert
Speaker 1: that fairies were real and that they had a matriarchal culture.
Speaker 1: So you throw in some sonic influence and para influence.
Speaker 1: Which side note, Caroline, we do need to do an
Speaker 1: episode all about tarot cards. Heck yeah, oh my god,
Speaker 1: middle school Caroline. Oh, were you into taro rooms and
Speaker 1: taro See? I was like, I was like the people
Speaker 1: at the beginning that I mentioned, like I have to
Speaker 1: believe in something because I'm not into Christianity. Well, I
Speaker 1: can't wait for our podcast tarot card reading. But in
Speaker 1: addition to those things, you have archaic language, especially in spells, rituals, nudism.
Speaker 1: Because Gardner was a nudist and a little bit of
Speaker 1: ritual sex, and you have modern American Wicca basically in
Speaker 1: the way that Gardner outlined it. But Caroline, you gotta
Speaker 1: give an honorable mention to Doreen Edith Dominique Valenti because
Speaker 1: without her, Gardner's ideas probably would not have been as
Speaker 1: successful as they were. Um. She became one of the
Speaker 1: most influential leaders of WICCA and as part of why
Speaker 1: the religion is seen as women friendly today. So she
Speaker 1: was initiated into WICCA in nine three, so she was
Speaker 1: there from the early days and yes, um and she
Speaker 1: was responsible for writing much of early Gardenerian religious liturgy,
Speaker 1: and in later years she played a big part in
Speaker 1: bringing WICCA into wider public attention because she was very prolific.
Speaker 1: So she wrote an ABC of Witchcraft, Natural Magic, Witchcraft
Speaker 1: for Tomorrow, and the Rebirth of Witchcraft. So I mean
Speaker 1: she was really spreading a lot of a lot of
Speaker 1: this stuff about fascinating. So she is she would you
Speaker 1: argue that she helped attract women to WICCA and witchcraft
Speaker 1: during that time, because I mean that was part of
Speaker 1: the attraction to it in the first place, was that
Speaker 1: there was room for female leadership and an unlike more
Speaker 1: traditional religions like Christianity that hasn't always been so kind
Speaker 1: to female leadership. You don't say, well, speaking of that
Speaker 1: impressive woman, I think you mean which, Caroline, I sure do.
Speaker 1: No impressive which, no disrespect because it's us. We should
Speaker 1: probably now talk about how we get our modern links
Speaker 1: between feminism and the practice of wicked and witchcraft, because
Speaker 1: you know, we mentioned that all of those nineteenth century
Speaker 1: romantic dudes, we're basically like, oh, thank god, we're We're
Speaker 1: past that matriarchy period in our history. It was a
Speaker 1: dark period. Once we get into the twentieth century and
Speaker 1: we get into first wave and second wave feminism, you
Speaker 1: have a lot of women saying, no, it's not that
Speaker 1: we're past it. It's that we're just in this like awful,
Speaker 1: terrible patriarchal holding period before we get back to our
Speaker 1: matriarchal cultures. And so we will talk all about that
Speaker 1: after a quick break. So in the first half of show,
Speaker 1: we talked a lot about dudes, and people might have
Speaker 1: been scratching their heads because the child of this podcast
Speaker 1: is feminist witchcraft, and they're probably like, Christine, Caroline, where
Speaker 1: are you talking so much about dudes, where's all the
Speaker 1: feminism and all this stuff? That's right, Feminism and witchcraft
Speaker 1: have been pretty closely aligned, and not just since second
Speaker 1: way feminism with the actual literal group that was called
Speaker 1: which it has its roots in the suffrage movement, to
Speaker 1: with star witchcraft scholar Matilda Joscely Engage, and of course
Speaker 1: you might recognize her name from being oh, a feminist leader,
Speaker 1: a suffragist, and a historian. She used the narrative of
Speaker 1: witchcraft and the witch hunt and witch trials to enlighten
Speaker 1: her readers about basically how the church was damaging women.
Speaker 1: She wanted to give women a historical context for their oppression,
Speaker 1: so she wrote the book Woman, Church and State and
Speaker 1: traced the witch hunts and executions who are religious belief
Speaker 1: in the quote extreme wickedness of woman who would sell
Speaker 1: her soul to the devil to become a witch. And
Speaker 1: basically through her book, Gauge was responding to a conservative
Speaker 1: movement in society to blur the lines between church and state,
Speaker 1: which sounds familiar, and she was determined. This woman was
Speaker 1: determined to educate new suffragists in the movement, those who
Speaker 1: wanted to use their potential vote to support the more
Speaker 1: conservative blurring of the lines changes about the ways in
Speaker 1: which the church had harmed women. She was basically like, look,
Speaker 1: we have this history of the church burning women at
Speaker 1: the stake using the excuse of witchcraft. So let's talk
Speaker 1: about witches and let's talk about how the witch hunt
Speaker 1: was really a woman hunt. Yeah. She was like, just
Speaker 1: subout women for witch and your eyes will be open
Speaker 1: to everything. And she argued that witches could be good
Speaker 1: and we're simply what she called women of superior non colledge.
Speaker 1: And this is a fascinating pop cultural connection between first
Speaker 1: wave suffrage, witchcraft, Matilda Joscely Engage, and The Wizard of
Speaker 1: Oz because listeners prepared to have your mind blown. Her
Speaker 1: concept of good women as witches inspired ultimately Glenda, the
Speaker 1: good Witch and the Wicked Witch of the West in
Speaker 1: The Wizard of Oz. That's right. Yeah, she was the
Speaker 1: mother in law of Frank Bomb, who wrote The Wizard
Speaker 1: of Oz. She inspired this duo because, according to bombs biographer,
Speaker 1: Glinda's power came from within herself. That's an idea that
Speaker 1: Gauge inspired and it's also a theme that we will
Speaker 1: revisit when we talk about second wave feminism and modern WICCA.
Speaker 1: But Gauge put forward the idea, she was one of
Speaker 1: the first women to do so, that the idea that
Speaker 1: Christianity had always restricted the quote liberty women enjoyed under
Speaker 1: the old civil station. So there's that idea again of
Speaker 1: that like super free, utopian, peaceful, woman driven society. And
Speaker 1: she highlighted the Church's targeting of women in the witch hunts,
Speaker 1: and she pointed to their persecution of women of remarkable
Speaker 1: intellect and beauty who were thought to be in league
Speaker 1: with the devil, which is very similar to how we
Speaker 1: even pop culturally portray which is a lot of times today. Um,
Speaker 1: but this is really important. She made the claim that
Speaker 1: the Church had executed upwards of nine million people, mostly women,
Speaker 1: for witchcraft, and this was kind of her hook with
Speaker 1: all of it, of like, look at this massacre that
Speaker 1: has happened. This is clear cut evidence of how the
Speaker 1: Church has pathologically targeted all of these women. So, ladies,
Speaker 1: we need to cut ties. You need to get wise
Speaker 1: to this history or history rather. Um. But the thing
Speaker 1: is modern historians put that number much closer to afforded
Speaker 1: to fifty tho. Nonetheless, her argument and that startling number
Speaker 1: of nine million, which was not entirely accurate, was effective.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was very easy for women of her
Speaker 1: day in the nineteenth century to feel connected to the witchy,
Speaker 1: especially if they were people like Gauge who wanted suffrage,
Speaker 1: who wanted freedom, who wanted to exercise their intellect. Um.
Speaker 1: So you have this this first connection between feminism and
Speaker 1: witchcraft of basically the essence of it being any woman
Speaker 1: who was not interested in the patriarchy. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: It was giving women that historical foundation of you once
Speaker 1: had power, the church did away with it. When we
Speaker 1: get the vote, you cannot support the church because look
Speaker 1: at this colorful and tragic history that we've had. We
Speaker 1: need to get back to a place where women have power.
Speaker 1: So it's easy to see why nineteenth century women suffered,
Speaker 1: just in particular, would be attracted to that narrative. When
Speaker 1: we get into the second wave of feminism, though, it's
Speaker 1: less about that witchtory establishing the witchtory, because by then
Speaker 1: it's already well established, it's ingrained in a lot of narratives,
Speaker 1: and it's more about just smashing that patriarchy, of saying okay, yeah, Matilda,
Speaker 1: Jocelyn engage gave us this history. We believe in it.
Speaker 1: Let's get back now to a point where things are
Speaker 1: driven by women. So in things get about as second
Speaker 1: wave as they possibly can. When you have a group
Speaker 1: of New York feminists led by Robin Morrigan form which
Speaker 1: which stands for Women's International Terrorists, Conspiracy from Hell and
Speaker 1: listen people, they had like zero to do with WIKA.
Speaker 1: They were not religious in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 1: They were more intent on an anarchic sisterhood that urge
Speaker 1: women to claim their power. I mean they're essentially like
Speaker 1: going around and disrupting things. So there. Their favorite was
Speaker 1: to target centers of financial, corporate and academic power with
Speaker 1: very theatrical kinds of protests. And they first struck Halloween
Speaker 1: on Wall Street, which they referred to as the Imperialist
Speaker 1: Phallic Society, And they danced in front of the Federal
Speaker 1: Reserve Treasury Bank, led by a high priestess toting a
Speaker 1: paper machee pighead on a golden platter, and they surrounded
Speaker 1: a George Washington statue and defaced it with which stickers,
Speaker 1: which got them kicked out of that area, but they
Speaker 1: kept on going. They just ran through Manhattan essentially later
Speaker 1: that night, for instance, they exorcised a burlesque cows. They
Speaker 1: put a hex on max factor at a beauty clinic,
Speaker 1: and they went to a fancy restaurant and handed out
Speaker 1: garlic clothes and cards reading we are which, we are women,
Speaker 1: we are liberation, we are we. These women were not
Speaker 1: to be stopped. And you gotta hand it to some
Speaker 1: second wave feminists, like, yeah, they weren't so great with intersectionality,
Speaker 1: but my goodness, were they theatrical in their protests? Yeah,
Speaker 1: they sure were. There are some great pictures if you Google,
Speaker 1: or if you go to stuff I've Never Told You
Speaker 1: dot com and look at the source pots for this episode,
Speaker 1: you can find a link to an article about which
Speaker 1: But there's some great photos out there of them like
Speaker 1: running around screaming, trying to be as scary as possible.
Speaker 1: But yeah, like christ And said, this was obviously not
Speaker 1: a religion, This was not part of wicca as goddess worship,
Speaker 1: but it was based on the idea that which is
Speaker 1: where the original quote guerrillas and resistance fighters against oppression,
Speaker 1: particularly the oppression of women, right down the ages. Again,
Speaker 1: there's that reference to like an ancient female driven religion
Speaker 1: that's been passed down. Yeah, I mean. And they also
Speaker 1: called themselves covens, like rather than some kind of support groups.
Speaker 1: There were covens that sprung up all around Boston, Chicago,
Speaker 1: San Francisco, North Carolina. I was surprised, and he was
Speaker 1: in the research triangle. So um, and they played around
Speaker 1: two with the which acronym um Not all went by
Speaker 1: Women's International Terrorist conspiracy from Hill. There's also women inspired
Speaker 1: to commit her story um. Also women in sensit telephone
Speaker 1: company harassment, which listen, ladies, I can get behind in that.
Speaker 1: But they called their strikes zapps and I like that.
Speaker 1: In nineteen nine, some covens zapped bridal fairs in San
Speaker 1: Francisco and New York because they said, quote, marriage is
Speaker 1: a dehumanizing institution, legal hordom for women. Yeah. Can you
Speaker 1: imagine being in a bridal fair and having a bunch
Speaker 1: of women with their faces painted white, wearing all black
Speaker 1: running in and telling you you're a whore? Hello, say
Speaker 1: yes to the dress? Zapp it. I'd finally watched that show.
Speaker 1: Uh God. Every time every time I go home and
Speaker 1: hang out with my mother, she's watching a show and
Speaker 1: she always looks at me, and she's like, one day,
Speaker 1: when this is you, I promise I won't be like
Speaker 1: these terrible mothers who judge their their daughter's dresses. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not sure what planet you're living on,
Speaker 1: but that's absolutely going to be you anyhoo. I mean
Speaker 1: it's Caroline. It sounds like for what your tone that
Speaker 1: we are, you're primed to zapp yes to the dress.
Speaker 1: I'm saying is that I can envision the headline, you know,
Speaker 1: feminist podcasters arrested dressed up as witches arrested on TLC
Speaker 1: say yes to the dress. Shoot sight Yeah, okay, it's
Speaker 1: a little bit long, alright, it is a little tweaking. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I'm just saying it's got all the ingredients for
Speaker 1: a viral post. We can bring Stacy London along, and
Speaker 1: I have a witch hat perfect, I have a top
Speaker 1: hat perfect, and things don't slow down by any means.
Speaker 1: In one we get spiritual feminist Zusanna Budapest, who starts
Speaker 1: the lovely named I love this name, Susan Anthony Coven
Speaker 1: number one. Yes, she ignored traditional wiccas, so we're not
Speaker 1: talking about feminist wicca. She ignored traditional wiccas. Secrecy and
Speaker 1: their inclusion of men in order to both bring more
Speaker 1: women into the fold and teach more women about the religion.
Speaker 1: And of course she gave her groups protests of religious bent.
Speaker 1: You know, they would also be protesting the financial and
Speaker 1: the corporate but using candles and chants and things like
Speaker 1: that to really give it sort of an eerie vibe.
Speaker 1: And I was interested to learn that it was around
Speaker 1: this time that some Wiccans who were not so interested
Speaker 1: in Susan b. Anthony coven number one and its cohorts,
Speaker 1: complained that feminist witchcraft was this American product, that was
Speaker 1: something that started in the US, and in fact, some
Speaker 1: British mail Wiccands, because remember Jerry Gardner and during VALENTI
Speaker 1: started everything in the UK, and some British mail Wiccans
Speaker 1: were especially put off by feminist witchcraft, equipping that it
Speaker 1: was just populated by a load of lesbians. Now, hang on,
Speaker 1: Gerald Gardner basically just invented something like out of something
Speaker 1: that wasn't real. So so then you have male Wiccans
Speaker 1: in England saying, how dare you create your own Wiccan
Speaker 1: outpost outcropping of this religion that seems a little funny
Speaker 1: doesn't it. I like your simultaneous skepticism and support of happening.
Speaker 1: Right now, I know I'm a complex individual. So the
Speaker 1: following year, in two, this is after Susanna Budapest has
Speaker 1: started the Susan b Anthony covin Glorious Steinhum writes an
Speaker 1: essay about ancient gno centric society's echoing. She echoes, you, guys,
Speaker 1: she's echoing the idea, the Victorian patronizing idea that ancients
Speaker 1: societies didn't understand the whole paternity issue and that women
Speaker 1: were indeed worshiped for their fertility. So I appreciate what's
Speaker 1: happening in order to like inspire women and try to
Speaker 1: empower them and give them a connection to a girl
Speaker 1: power past. However, like, can we please do away with
Speaker 1: this idea that people don't understand how babies are made?
Speaker 1: I mean, this isn't the movie Lagoon right where Brookshields
Speaker 1: doesn't understand how pregnancy works. But women did undeniably have
Speaker 1: a very intimate connection obviously to things like pregnancy, but
Speaker 1: to childbirth as well. And this is something that comes
Speaker 1: more into play the following year, in nineteen seventy three,
Speaker 1: when Barbara Aaron Reich and Dear dre English Penn the
Speaker 1: booklet Witches, Midwives and Nurses, making the case that women
Speaker 1: need to reclaim their place in medicine as healers um,
Speaker 1: because before medicine became more male dominated and professionalized, when
Speaker 1: it came to childbirth, it happened exclusively at home under
Speaker 1: the guidance of usually a female midwife. And you have
Speaker 1: similar things happening in terms of herbalists and natural healers um,
Speaker 1: which were usually women as well. Yeah, and so this
Speaker 1: pair we're saying that which is, were just healers whom
Speaker 1: the church sought to discredit, And a lot of other
Speaker 1: scholars would argue, well, in fact, a lot of the
Speaker 1: women who were accused and executed were not necessarily the
Speaker 1: leaders and pillars of the community, the intelligent healers. A
Speaker 1: lot of these women were poor and had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with sort of leadership. It was more about having
Speaker 1: an unfortunate reputation basically in your neighborhood and then getting
Speaker 1: accused of being a witch. Well, and wasn't there also
Speaker 1: a lot of mistrust if these women were old and
Speaker 1: had no children, Yes, so that that was part of
Speaker 1: it too, Like if you and how is that any
Speaker 1: different from ten, Like, if you fall outside the no
Speaker 1: warms of society, we're going to be suspicious of you. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Instead of calling us witches, they just call us selfish bitches. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean there's still spinster Yeah, that's still around. I
Speaker 1: mean people looked at spinster women back in the day
Speaker 1: and we're like, she's a witch, turned me into a
Speaker 1: newt And it's the same today. You know, people are
Speaker 1: always accusing me of turning them into nuts. And for
Speaker 1: that though, for that reason, I totally totally totally get this,
Speaker 1: especially second wave fascination with witches and witchcraft in the
Speaker 1: desire to reclaim that in a way. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well,
Speaker 1: you have someone like the very influential California which Miriam
Speaker 1: star Hawk semos in nine publishes the book The Spiral Dance,
Speaker 1: a Rebirth of the ancient Religion of the Great Goddess,
Speaker 1: And much like Matilda Joscely Engage and Margaret Alice Murray,
Speaker 1: who had sort of inserted these snippets of sort of
Speaker 1: foe history into our narrative of of empowerment, uh Semus
Speaker 1: did the same thing, and she herself, by the way,
Speaker 1: speaking of reclaiming that whole idea of woman as powerful
Speaker 1: not scary. I do think it's interesting to note that
Speaker 1: star Hawk, as she calls herself, has said that she
Speaker 1: identifies as a witch because it forces people to confront
Speaker 1: why they fear the word. So, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: that's an interesting perspective on it. But in her book, Uh,
Speaker 1: star Hawk lays out all of these ideas and ideals
Speaker 1: around Wicca that aren't entirely accurate and that are borrowed
Speaker 1: from those feminist women who came before. She claims that
Speaker 1: it's the oldest religion, going back thirty five thousand years,
Speaker 1: that its earliest adherents worshiped a mother goddess and a
Speaker 1: horned god. You know, we've been over all of this.
Speaker 1: She says, it was part of a peaceful, woman centric,
Speaker 1: egalitarian society until those jerks, the Indo European man people,
Speaker 1: rode through on their horse beasts, springing war and weapons
Speaker 1: and patriarchy, which she claimed didn't exist until this happened.
Speaker 1: And so then she jumps from the arrival of Indo
Speaker 1: European patriarchy to then moving on to Christianity, which then
Speaker 1: leads her to discuss the witch hunts and executions, and
Speaker 1: she also puts forward Matilda Gauge's figure of nine million executed.
Speaker 1: And so her book, which by the way, is still
Speaker 1: a lot of people's first introduction to Wicca, inspires a
Speaker 1: lot of second waivers who connected with those narratives of
Speaker 1: the patriarchy essentially ruining everything, taking away women's power, and
Speaker 1: the importance of connecting with a goddess or the goddess,
Speaker 1: and her work is highly influential in the wickest sphere.
Speaker 1: Did I just make up a term? I don't have it?
Speaker 1: That could also be like a candle industry thing, Yes,
Speaker 1: although connected they need candles for these ceremonies new side
Speaker 1: business Carolina cottage industry, and her work did inspire a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of second waivers who connected with this idea
Speaker 1: of the patriarchy ruining everything and the importance of connecting
Speaker 1: with a goddess. And one of the other big names
Speaker 1: during this period in terms of feminism and witchcraft is
Speaker 1: the self described radical lesbian feminist Mary Daily, who had
Speaker 1: talked about which is in her own nine book guinne Ecology.
Speaker 1: There's a slash in there, but in On Mother's Day
Speaker 1: nine eight nine, Daily staged The Witches Return, a theatrical
Speaker 1: reversal of the old witch trials where she basically put
Speaker 1: these so called agents of the patriarchy on trial. Uh. Pornographers,
Speaker 1: serial killers, earth rapers, academic brain drainers, and the Roman
Speaker 1: Catholic hierarchy, just to name a few. Uh. And during
Speaker 1: this ceremony, all of these figures were ritually declared guilty,
Speaker 1: hext and beheaded. And Daily claims that hoddest murder is
Speaker 1: a tenant of the patriarchy. And you know, I can't
Speaker 1: really disagree with her, considering the history of where we
Speaker 1: get this idea of like a one goddess like archetypal
Speaker 1: goddess worship thing from you know, nineteenth century dudes. Um.
Speaker 1: But she says that the answer to that is that
Speaker 1: women need to invoke the goddess within. And she did
Speaker 1: call witch hunts deliberate woman hunts, So we've heard that before. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: So where does all this lead us, Caroline? I mean,
Speaker 1: we're in the nineties, then we transition more into the
Speaker 1: goddess movement, where it seems like it's a return more
Speaker 1: to nature and finding you know, your power from within,
Speaker 1: less so than beheading academic brain drainers say, I mean
Speaker 1: because really the more scholarship on witchcraft in the history
Speaker 1: of which is and especially the killing of which is,
Speaker 1: the more that that happens, the less evidence of this
Speaker 1: turns up. Yeah, I mean, I think that there is
Speaker 1: more evidence, for instance, that there were not these utopian,
Speaker 1: peaceful societies. That's that's not to say that there weren't
Speaker 1: societies that were more egalitarian or that that had matrilineality. Um.
Speaker 1: Claud It did not stumble over that word. Um. But
Speaker 1: you know, there's really little evidence that people weren't killing
Speaker 1: each other. There's more evidence that people were killing each
Speaker 1: other than we're living in egalitarian, peaceful utopias. Um. And
Speaker 1: the thing about this whole narrative to UH woman as
Speaker 1: which it plays into this idea of woman as nurture,
Speaker 1: It seems like a lot of people women too, are
Speaker 1: embracing this idea that was put forth by uh kind
Speaker 1: of misogynistic nineteenth century men that women are closer to nature,
Speaker 1: they're more natural, they're more peaceful, and so we should
Speaker 1: appreciate their their chastity and their peacefulness and their earth motherlyness.
Speaker 1: So do we see, though any based on everything that
Speaker 1: we know all of the things that we've read, do
Speaker 1: we see any usefulness for feminist Wicca because a lot
Speaker 1: of what we've been doing over the past half hour
Speaker 1: plus has been debunking it. Well. Much like many religions,
Speaker 1: Wicca might have a degree of made up nous, but
Speaker 1: feminist Wicca I can definitely see that it's a way
Speaker 1: to experience and exercise power, and to connect with yourself
Speaker 1: and with nature, to reject the patriarchy, and to foster
Speaker 1: a spiritual life in a religion that's all about women.
Speaker 1: It gives them a place at the table, so to speak.
Speaker 1: And Melissa Raphael who wrote Introducing Theology that's theology with
Speaker 1: an a to indicate goddess worship discourse on the goddess
Speaker 1: sites Naomi Goldenberg who said goddess religion can often appear
Speaker 1: as wish craft because it teaches women to use spells
Speaker 1: and rituals to express their hopes, ambitions, and des ires.
Speaker 1: Sometimes the idea of a matriarchy in the past is
Speaker 1: put forward as a wish about history, a desire to
Speaker 1: be realized in the present and future, and so in
Speaker 1: that regard, I think that it's not unlike many other
Speaker 1: religions where you want a sense of belonging and empowerment
Speaker 1: through believing that you have a place in something bigger
Speaker 1: than yourself. And that goes to something that Caroline Ball,
Speaker 1: who wrote a whole thesis on Wicko, Witchcraft and the
Speaker 1: Goddess Revival, points out is that ultimately it's a lot
Speaker 1: more about individuality rather than historical fact, because, as she writes,
Speaker 1: it's a religion based upon individual experience, and Wika is
Speaker 1: simply a framework to allow these experiences to happen. So
Speaker 1: it's understandable if we think about the structure of say
Speaker 1: a coven, and that offers you a community, and this
Speaker 1: offers you a framework to access perhaps this power and
Speaker 1: quotes that you might not otherwise you'll able to to
Speaker 1: do yeah in other religions for sure. And and I
Speaker 1: mean this is why I read OH magazine. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: saying not even like in a religious context, just generally speaking,
Speaker 1: you know, it can allow you to do it as
Speaker 1: opposed to just not having any religion whatsoever. And other
Speaker 1: people find this through the practice of yoga, through meditation.
Speaker 1: There's many different ways to feel like you're connecting to
Speaker 1: a deeper, more peaceful, and more powerful place within yourself. Um,
Speaker 1: that's not an organized official religion or WICCA or anything
Speaker 1: like that. There are many different ways to achieve this
Speaker 1: and this is just one of them. Well, I'm really
Speaker 1: curious to hear from listeners on this because I have
Speaker 1: a feeling there's some wiccans listening who might have some
Speaker 1: very different perspectives in what we've been sharing, and we're
Speaker 1: absolutely open to that. Because this is a half hour podcast,
Speaker 1: it's really hard to condense an entire belief system down
Speaker 1: into like forty five minutes. So listeners, we want to
Speaker 1: hear from you. Mom savat House of Works dot com
Speaker 1: is our email address. You can also tweet us at
Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got
Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you right now.
Speaker 1: I have one here from Megan about our Women and
Speaker 1: Weightlifters episode. She says, Hello, ladies, I listened to your
Speaker 1: podcast today regarding ladies and lifting and had to write
Speaker 1: in I'm an American College of Sports Medicine exercise physiologist
Speaker 1: and I'm a graduate student in a muscle research lab,
Speaker 1: so this podcast was right up my alley. I thought
Speaker 1: you may find one of my teaching stories rather interesting.
Speaker 1: Last year, as part of my assistant ship, I taught
Speaker 1: a college weightlifting class. I'm about five ft two and
Speaker 1: about a hundred and fifteen pounds. People, especially the gents,
Speaker 1: were shocked to see that I was their weightlifting teacher,
Speaker 1: ascribing to cultural stereotypes that only big, burly dudes know
Speaker 1: anything about weightlifting. One d while letting my class free lift,
Speaker 1: an older gentleman approached me and started talking about my class.
Speaker 1: He proceeded to tell me what and how I should
Speaker 1: be teaching. What's even more annoying is that everything he
Speaker 1: was saying was either flat out wrong or outdated. I
Speaker 1: read a lot of research, and I'm pretty well versed
Speaker 1: on resistance exercise, but this guy was unconvinced. Anytime I
Speaker 1: told him research didn't support a thing he said so annoying. Luckily,
Speaker 1: going through some of my course evaluations, many of the students,
Speaker 1: including the gents, learned a lot from the class, and bonus,
Speaker 1: my ladies were less intimidated by the class since I
Speaker 1: wasn't a super bulky man bro glad to spread some
Speaker 1: of the good weightlifting vibes into the world. Also, quick
Speaker 1: p s a since I'm an exercise nerd and as
Speaker 1: super passionate about evidence based practices. If you are looking
Speaker 1: for some help with starting a resistance training regime, I
Speaker 1: highly suggest very critically evaluating the credentials of any fitness expert.
Speaker 1: You may find there are no or very few state
Speaker 1: laws regarding who can prescribe exercise. There's some personal training
Speaker 1: certification exams that are only a twenty minute quiz, so
Speaker 1: you have to be careful with whom you're looking at.
Speaker 1: I highly suggest American College of Sports Medicine or National
Speaker 1: Strength and Condition Association certified individuals. Both of those organizations
Speaker 1: are leaders in the field and use firsthand research to
Speaker 1: make exercise recommendations. Further, the certifying exams are pretty difficult,
Speaker 1: and for some you need an undergrad degree in exercise science.
Speaker 1: Other certifying examps are not nearly as intense, and the
Speaker 1: personal trainers are not nearly as knowledgeable. Not trying to
Speaker 1: sell these organizations, but if you're going to be paying
Speaker 1: someone for a service, I think they should be well
Speaker 1: qualified to provide that service. Anyway. Love the podcast and
Speaker 1: super love this episode. You ladies rock and so do you. Megan,
Speaker 1: Thank you, and I've gotta let her hear from Rhea
Speaker 1: about our rowdy Ronda Rousey episode, and she writes, as
Speaker 1: a UFC fan who's been watching for a few years now,
Speaker 1: I feel like this episode was quite biased off the bat.
Speaker 1: I understand that a contact sport like m m A
Speaker 1: isn't everyone's cup of tea, but a lot of your
Speaker 1: criticisms of Rousey felt out of context, gendered, and removed
Speaker 1: from a sport. Ding Ding Let's go. When you discussed
Speaker 1: the trash talking and comments made about Misha take you
Speaker 1: forgot to mention how Rousey's attitude is not unique to her,
Speaker 1: but part of the game. When top fighters like Connor
Speaker 1: McGregor smack talk opponents in a similar or worse nature,
Speaker 1: it just makes him more charismatic and confident, with no
Speaker 1: one calling him a catty miss and dress even rousies
Speaker 1: do nothing. Bitch's blog within retaliation to Beth Korea's very
Speaker 1: personal attack statements during the lead up to their fight
Speaker 1: to focus on Dana White wanting Rowsey because of her
Speaker 1: looks and not just skill, which is partially true, however,
Speaker 1: didn't highlight the entire UFC works this way and doesn't
Speaker 1: treat the mail fighters any different, with White having recently
Speaker 1: told one of his fighters to get more popular. This
Speaker 1: sport is a modern mix of skills social media, self promotion,
Speaker 1: and entertainment, and Rousey is a smart businesswoman who creates
Speaker 1: the same hype and fan base as other major fighters
Speaker 1: in order to get the championship title fights. It seemed
Speaker 1: as though your discussion used Rowsy's gender as a reason
Speaker 1: for her to be less than her male fighter counterparts.
Speaker 1: Above all, she's a fighter, a point that wasn't stressed enough.
Speaker 1: She needs to make as much money in her physical
Speaker 1: crime before acquiring any serious injuries, beat her opponents as
Speaker 1: fast as possible, and make the most of this time
Speaker 1: in her career. Yes, her comments on potential steroid it
Speaker 1: or transgender opponents were insensitive, but the core of her
Speaker 1: words was that quote, this person is going to physically
Speaker 1: attack me, So muscle mass power or a good chin
Speaker 1: can be as seriously unfair advantage. So thank you for
Speaker 1: those insights, Rhea. We appreciate your more expert look at
Speaker 1: Rowsy gender and UFC. So with that, if you have
Speaker 1: expert views to share with us as well, or just
Speaker 1: you know, funny links to send us, Mom, Steve ad
Speaker 1: alsap works dot com is where you can email us
Speaker 1: and for links all of our social media as well
Speaker 1: as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this
Speaker 1: one with links force versus so you can see images
Speaker 1: of those feminist witches zapping all over town. Head on
Speaker 1: over to stuff mom Never Told You dot com for
Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Isn't how
Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com