Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told you from House Top
Speaker 1: Works Nott. Come hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Speaker 1: Caroline and Christens on vacation, which is sad for all
Speaker 1: of us, but happily today we have an interview for
Speaker 1: you with two of the members of the fantastic podcast
Speaker 1: Black Girls Talking. We're talking to Alicia and Aurelia today
Speaker 1: and we super enjoyed our conversation with these ladies. This
Speaker 1: is part two in our podcast Summer Camp, our podcasting
Speaker 1: Women series. We've got a couple more of these for
Speaker 1: you guys to enjoy throughout the summer um. But yeah,
Speaker 1: today we're going to talk to Alicia and Aurelia and
Speaker 1: sort of get their perspective on some great things that
Speaker 1: are in the news and sort of how they practice
Speaker 1: self care and how that ties in with them is
Speaker 1: m So, without further ado, let's roll the interview. Could
Speaker 1: you guys enlighten us as to the Black Girls Talking
Speaker 1: origin story and how you've managed to build this amazing
Speaker 1: long distance podcast on top of these amazing long distance friendships. Um, well,
Speaker 1: we all met through Tumbler, which is kind of ridiculous
Speaker 1: but awesome. I really and I were following each other
Speaker 1: for a while. Same with Fatimah. Yeah, I remember and
Speaker 1: I weren't following each other, but once the podcast kicked off,
Speaker 1: we followed each other. But I think we all knew
Speaker 1: each other. We all like ran in the same circle.
Speaker 1: I think I actually followed all three of you. So
Speaker 1: we all talk online and we'd all laughing une jokes
Speaker 1: and complain together. And I think that said the basis
Speaker 1: of a good friendship being able to complain together. So
Speaker 1: that's how it all started. Um Fatima was actually the
Speaker 1: one who came up with the idea though um you
Speaker 1: would always talk about representation, and um Fatima was the
Speaker 1: one who would I guess proactive about it. Yeah. She
Speaker 1: I think she messaged all well, she put up one
Speaker 1: post and was like I really want to do this
Speaker 1: thing and if you're interested in just inbox me and quick.
Speaker 1: We're the only four people that in boxed her. But
Speaker 1: I was like, I'll work behind the scenes and she
Speaker 1: was like you're going to talk. So yeah, but that's
Speaker 1: how it all came together for Timo like put her
Speaker 1: foot down. It was like we're all going to do this,
Speaker 1: and then we all just naturally fell in line. And
Speaker 1: that's we've been we've been friends ever since. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it really hasn't been that hard to maintain friendships because
Speaker 1: we're all pretty active online. And even if we're not
Speaker 1: active like you know and publicly online, we're always emailing
Speaker 1: and it's messaging or damning. So it's been pretty easy
Speaker 1: to stay in contact. Plus we like each other, so that, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the big part. We all like each other and
Speaker 1: like to talk to each other. So yeah, a very
Speaker 1: important part of a successful podcast. I gotta like to
Speaker 1: talk to each other specifically. Um, that's really interesting then
Speaker 1: that you all didn't sort of select self select each other,
Speaker 1: like Okay, it's going to be us for Fatima put
Speaker 1: out a call and you all just happened to be
Speaker 1: the ones who answered. I love that. It's like podcast
Speaker 1: fate is, Yeah, we're gonna destiny each pile. The podcasts
Speaker 1: were the I like, we like to call ourselves the
Speaker 1: end podcasting. I love that reference. Well. In a Hello
Speaker 1: Giggles article from two thousand thirteen, we were reading, it
Speaker 1: said that you all had never met face to face.
Speaker 1: Is that still the case? No, we I think we
Speaker 1: met like not long after that article went up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we all met up in New York City. Um, we
Speaker 1: had like a little well it was it's weird, because
Speaker 1: what's not weird? But we met up and then we
Speaker 1: had other tumbler friends we met up with in New York. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're all friends with the same group of people, So
Speaker 1: it wasn't as weird as it sounds like. I'm all
Speaker 1: actually interacted with like new each other before. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: like when we met each other, it was kind of
Speaker 1: just like I had to stop myself from calling it
Speaker 1: really by her Tumbler name, that's how familiar we were online.
Speaker 1: But yeah, we met each other. Um, I think it
Speaker 1: was two years, like in April or something. Yeah, we
Speaker 1: hopefully have a meet up coming up within sooner than later.
Speaker 1: So why podcasting in particular, Well, I think when we
Speaker 1: started this, there wasn't really anything like it. I mean,
Speaker 1: fortunately now that people have a lot of options, but
Speaker 1: you know, three years ago, we were like, we're not
Speaker 1: hearing our voices really anywhere on the Internet, whether it's
Speaker 1: like in the written word or on YouTube or in podcasts,
Speaker 1: and podcast seemed like the most accessible thing the time. Well,
Speaker 1: now that a bit of time has passed, Um, how
Speaker 1: do you feel about that representation? Now in the podcasting world,
Speaker 1: it seems like we've read a lot of articles about
Speaker 1: how the majority of podcasters tend to be white dudes.
Speaker 1: So do you feel like that representation is getting better
Speaker 1: obvious to be honest to say, no, Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: we're always like psyched when we're on lists of podcasters
Speaker 1: to listen to, but it's always like, listen to these
Speaker 1: people of color, and we can I can always. I
Speaker 1: I kind of gauge it by are we on lists
Speaker 1: including like everyone including white guys too, or to just
Speaker 1: lists including like women or people of color, and it's
Speaker 1: normally just you know, the ladder. So I think when
Speaker 1: you can see these lists put out by people like,
Speaker 1: say I don't know, like MPR or Slate or whoever,
Speaker 1: like these big media conglomerate, when they start including all
Speaker 1: of us and not putting us in these like and
Speaker 1: these boxes, that I'll know that it's finally becoming more
Speaker 1: accessible to everyone. But for now, it's just it's very, very,
Speaker 1: very white. Yeah. I mean, I think with the circulation
Speaker 1: of lists articles like that, it's a lot of choir preaching.
Speaker 1: So it seems a lot more. It seems like things
Speaker 1: are improving a lot more and a lot faster than
Speaker 1: they actually are, because you know, the articles that we
Speaker 1: read on the blogs that we read our gear toward
Speaker 1: our demographic. So there's always going to be a list
Speaker 1: of you know, thirty great podcast by women and people
Speaker 1: of color. But you know, if we're not getting funneled
Speaker 1: out into the mainstream, then the people that really need
Speaker 1: to be listening to this kind of stuff aren't listening
Speaker 1: to it. Yeah, it seems like all of these more
Speaker 1: recent trend pieces, which it seems like I've been largely
Speaker 1: kicked off, things to the success of cereal Um on
Speaker 1: women in podcasting in the excitement around that are nice
Speaker 1: for finally paying attention to the fact that, yes, women
Speaker 1: are making and hosting great podcasts. But like you said,
Speaker 1: the fact that it's still segmented off into that its
Speaker 1: own little like corner is indicative that it's not there's progress,
Speaker 1: but not really, because there has to be the modifier
Speaker 1: of women or black women or you know, these specific
Speaker 1: kinds of parts or or listeners slash readers of blogs
Speaker 1: are being told like, well, no, this isn't for you,
Speaker 1: this is just for women, or this is just for
Speaker 1: women of color. You won't be interested it's almost like
Speaker 1: that's the message that's being sent there. We hear a
Speaker 1: lot like people will pick up our show and say,
Speaker 1: oh my god, you know, after listening to a couple episodes,
Speaker 1: I really love it. I didn't think that was going
Speaker 1: to be for me or pople who we even listen
Speaker 1: to it and say, you know, this podcast isn't necessarily
Speaker 1: for me, but I needed to hear it. That's amazing.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's been a surprise to us to like
Speaker 1: how how open people have been to us. So I
Speaker 1: think historically or I don't know. At first, I thought
Speaker 1: that maybe calming it black girls talking was going to well.
Speaker 1: First I was like, well, we're black girls and we're talking,
Speaker 1: and we want other black girls to know that we're
Speaker 1: talking about black girl stuff, So this is great. And
Speaker 1: then as time went on, I was like, well, maybe
Speaker 1: people aren't instane because I don't know, maybe black is
Speaker 1: like a negative connotation for them, which I don't know
Speaker 1: why it would be. It's awesome, but for a lot
Speaker 1: of people there's kind of like black. I think that's
Speaker 1: slowly changing, And like I said earlier, I was I
Speaker 1: continue to be surprised when we get like, you know,
Speaker 1: white people from like Middle America who are like awesome
Speaker 1: podcast like us. Hello, yeah, so I'm black girls talking.
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit, especially for listeners of
Speaker 1: ours who haven't heard the podcast, some of your personal
Speaker 1: favorite things to talk about, particularly with these other three women.
Speaker 1: Everything really Yeah. I don't think there's one thing that
Speaker 1: we've covered where it has been like unpleasant to talk about.
Speaker 1: Even when we disagree, it's still a pleasant conversation. And
Speaker 1: I feel like we all learned something because we all
Speaker 1: come from we all do come from different backgrounds. So, um,
Speaker 1: we talked about it because we talked about pop culture.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about uh like Fiminius issues, social issues. We
Speaker 1: talk about everything, So it can be serious like in
Speaker 1: our last podcast, Um we're talking about the Rachel Doles
Speaker 1: golf fiasco. Or we can be talking about Drake, which
Speaker 1: well I talk about Drake. So what then, are a
Speaker 1: couple of the most meaningful conversations that stand out to
Speaker 1: both of you, you know what, As frivolous as it
Speaker 1: may sound, I love it when we do our self
Speaker 1: care episodes and like our beauty episodes, because that's something that,
Speaker 1: at least for me, there wasn't really a community of
Speaker 1: women who look like me, giving you know, makeup tips
Speaker 1: or like how to keep your skin nice or how
Speaker 1: to keep your hair and eyes like that's not that's
Speaker 1: not a common thing. So it's really great when I
Speaker 1: get to talk to my girlfriends about it and you know,
Speaker 1: send that out to other people who might not have
Speaker 1: girlfriends like mine to talk about it. I really love
Speaker 1: when we talk about I love talking about beauty, of course. Um.
Speaker 1: I also I really the conversations. I think the conversations
Speaker 1: I love the most. I think they are when we
Speaker 1: get into issues surrounding black womanhood because I think I
Speaker 1: live in Phoenix and there aren't many black people or
Speaker 1: black women who uh, it's not it's not something you
Speaker 1: want to come out and say, I am a Feminism
Speaker 1: is such a conservative areas. We're in a red state,
Speaker 1: a crazy red state. So it's nice when I can
Speaker 1: connect with three other like very intelligent and loving women
Speaker 1: and talk about beings that directly concern us. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it really it's just touching for me, and it's like
Speaker 1: really reaffirming and kind of like validates like my validates
Speaker 1: my feelings or maybe my sadness and my anger around
Speaker 1: these issues. I don't feel like I'm I'm just going nuts,
Speaker 1: so I can talk to a really have a teamline
Speaker 1: remove about things that are weighing on my heart like that. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean speaking of waiving your feminist flag, your black
Speaker 1: feminist flag. Um. What does feminism mean to each of
Speaker 1: you in terms of that concept of self care? That's
Speaker 1: a hard one, or maybe it's not. Maybe it's like
Speaker 1: a really easy because maybe to me, feminism is self care,
Speaker 1: like self care is putting myself first and doing the
Speaker 1: best thing I can do for myself and for my
Speaker 1: mental health and for my physical health. And fem feminism
Speaker 1: does that feminism is me not allowing other people to
Speaker 1: put me last. Yeah. I think for me, feminism and
Speaker 1: self care like it's a verb. It's not. It's a
Speaker 1: thing that's constantly in motion. And I I think when
Speaker 1: I'm always focused on self care, and I think before
Speaker 1: I used to think, well, this is this is just
Speaker 1: me being vain or selfish or a narcissist. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but I think, knowing how how good these things are
Speaker 1: from my mental state, I think that's feminism being being
Speaker 1: able to to step outside of what society is telling
Speaker 1: you and say no this is and not this is
Speaker 1: kind of like a revolutionary act to me as a
Speaker 1: black woman, to just say no, I'm putting a side
Speaker 1: time for myself. That's a big like, that's a big thing.
Speaker 1: It's like just sometimes it feels like just existing as
Speaker 1: a black woman and being you know, vulnerable, or just
Speaker 1: being present in this world as a black woman seems
Speaker 1: like a revolutionary act a lot of the time, especially
Speaker 1: in the current climate. Well, it seems like too. Even
Speaker 1: allowing women to consider and value their own self care
Speaker 1: and feminism as self care is a revolutionary act because
Speaker 1: I think there's often this perception that self care for
Speaker 1: women in particular is just selfishness or vanity. So I
Speaker 1: love how you all have framed feminism as an extension
Speaker 1: of that, because I mean, honestly, before listening to black
Speaker 1: girls talking in the conversations you've had around it, I
Speaker 1: hadn't even considered that angle before. Yeah, I think anytime
Speaker 1: you can take care of yourself, like I think at
Speaker 1: all times, I think we were kind of we're kind
Speaker 1: of told to just suck it up and bear through
Speaker 1: whatever we're going through. But you can't. You can't go
Speaker 1: on like that, like you'll eventually break down, and what
Speaker 1: good are you to yourself for anybody else if you're
Speaker 1: just frazzled? You know. So yeah, I think just taking
Speaker 1: time to say, look, this is I love myself and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna people tind to care for myself. I think
Speaker 1: that's that is a feminism just as much as you know,
Speaker 1: protesting is. I think that at least, you know, we
Speaker 1: talk about like second way of feminism versus whatever whatever.
Speaker 1: But I think a lot of times people think of
Speaker 1: things as vanity and they put you know, not wearing
Speaker 1: makeup or not doing your hair or not whatever whatever,
Speaker 1: putting it on a pedestal, when really it's about letting
Speaker 1: women do whatever it is that makes them feel good.
Speaker 1: It's for you that means not wearing makeup in that sign.
Speaker 1: If for somebody else that means wearing everything that they
Speaker 1: have in alta on that day, then that's you. And
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times that these kind of
Speaker 1: like archaic, uh the whole don't don't work, don't dress up,
Speaker 1: or do or make the people want to take you seriously.
Speaker 1: I feel like those are conflicts that were put in
Speaker 1: place by patriarchy, and so by actually saying, hey, this look,
Speaker 1: loss is fun though, like you're kind of like you're
Speaker 1: confronting patriarchy and you're learning all these things that have
Speaker 1: been ingrained into us by society. So and even if
Speaker 1: you don't want to want to makeup, that's cool too.
Speaker 1: But I think it will kind of say this one
Speaker 1: thing is feminists, this one thing isn't feminist. That's so
Speaker 1: harmful and you have to kind of step back and
Speaker 1: ask yourself how what we have learned could possibly be
Speaker 1: harming us with others, and just where your makeup is,
Speaker 1: like you know, or deciding that you're gonna you're gonna
Speaker 1: present yourself in a certain way. It's a small way
Speaker 1: of confronting patriarchy. I think. So what I'm hearing is
Speaker 1: that we all need to come up with our new
Speaker 1: brand of lip gloss, Smash the Patriarchy lip gloss, or
Speaker 1: maybe that's the name of a color, the brightest Red
Speaker 1: to be smashed the Patriarchy perfect. I love it all. Right, Well,
Speaker 1: we'll be in contact about setting up our new cosmetic company,
Speaker 1: and we're going to hear more from these fans plastic
Speaker 1: ladies when we come right back from a quick break
Speaker 1: in terms of self care and actually letting yourself enjoy
Speaker 1: things that so many other people have said you shouldn't
Speaker 1: enjoy this, Feminists don't enjoy this. I really think pop
Speaker 1: culture is part of that, and you guys have actually
Speaker 1: talked a lot about that in terms of loving pop culture,
Speaker 1: talking about Drake adoring Beyonce's music videos. And so I
Speaker 1: want to know a little bit more from you about
Speaker 1: how that ties in with your concept of self care
Speaker 1: and sort of escaping the day to day realities. Oh
Speaker 1: that's complicated question, um, but I think it basically it
Speaker 1: boils down to we all consume problematic media and you
Speaker 1: have to learn how to do that and not drive
Speaker 1: yourself crazy. And I think we've we've had this conversation
Speaker 1: on the show before. And for me, you know, watching
Speaker 1: something like give an example, like How to get Away
Speaker 1: with Murder and seeing Viola Davis as this beautiful, capable, desirable,
Speaker 1: flawed person, it's like the greatest escape ever because that
Speaker 1: never happens. And Yeah, I think for me, I just
Speaker 1: refused to deny myself pleasure. So I feel like I've
Speaker 1: done that for so long. At a certain point, I
Speaker 1: was just like, no, I'm gonna enjoying myself. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm not hurting anyone. All I'm doing is enjoying myself,
Speaker 1: and in turn, I'm a much more pleasurable person to
Speaker 1: be around. And I'm enjoying myself, So yeah, I'm being Also,
Speaker 1: I mean, as far as like reality, I cannot escape
Speaker 1: my reality. I don't think anything like as a woman,
Speaker 1: as a black woman. My reality it's inescapable, and so
Speaker 1: I don't need to be constantly watching the news or
Speaker 1: reading or reading you know, textbooks, flow theory in order
Speaker 1: to stay connected or stay grounded with who who I am,
Speaker 1: who my reality is. It's okay to enjoy myself. And
Speaker 1: I love watching other I love watching you know, I
Speaker 1: love reading gossip. I'll admit I love reading gossip. I
Speaker 1: love watching track TV. I love listening to music and
Speaker 1: dancing in my underwrack. It's it's just who I am,
Speaker 1: and I think I'm not. There's no really to feel
Speaker 1: guilty for that. And a lot of times I gravitate
Speaker 1: towards I gravitate mostly towards, uh, you know, music and
Speaker 1: TV because I can see people who look like me,
Speaker 1: especially within music, and I can see people who I
Speaker 1: relate to, like on you know, an emotional level through
Speaker 1: TV and through music. So I think it's a case
Speaker 1: for everyone. I don't I don't understand people who don't
Speaker 1: engage in pop culture and like why not? It's so
Speaker 1: awesome and you can, like you can see yourself reflected.
Speaker 1: And who doesn't want who doesn't want that? It's like
Speaker 1: just to be real, like if it doesn't want to
Speaker 1: see themselves respected within the world. So yeah, that's how
Speaker 1: I just how I just I justify it, aguess, but
Speaker 1: just not denying myself pleasure and just you know, enjoying myself.
Speaker 1: And let's be honest with people that you know, tell
Speaker 1: you that they don't watch TV or they don't go
Speaker 1: to the movies because they think they're better than that,
Speaker 1: And why don't you just go to a museum? Are
Speaker 1: forgetting the fact that all the art that's hanging up
Speaker 1: in the museums were the pop culture of their time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and also like we can do all of these things,
Speaker 1: like we're not it doesn't mean we're at home we're
Speaker 1: just watching TV and we're refusing to actually like some
Speaker 1: inside our homes in person culture, we can do all
Speaker 1: of these things. It's just I don't people just really
Speaker 1: come down on TV and the things that I think
Speaker 1: women specifically like, and it's just it's still played out.
Speaker 1: But to lose alone les enjoy ourselves. You're saying women
Speaker 1: can be complex and enjoy all sorts of things that
Speaker 1: sometimes don't all match up and make sense. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it's an amazing concept. I wild this wild stuff
Speaker 1: we're talking about today. I'm just gonna get groundbreaking conversation.
Speaker 1: But I think I also think part of it is
Speaker 1: like this is the last taboo, at least at my family,
Speaker 1: because I don't fight with I don't go to Thanksgiving
Speaker 1: in fight with my family about like you know, laws
Speaker 1: or gay marriage or you know, my rights as a
Speaker 1: black woman or police brutality. Because we all agree on
Speaker 1: these things we told a grant are things like how
Speaker 1: do you feel about Beyonce? How do you feel about
Speaker 1: the humanage? Respectability? Politics is like the less big hurdle
Speaker 1: in my family that I'm trying to get everybody pass. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's the same for me. Yeah, that you've
Speaker 1: got a according to some ephemeral rules that you have
Speaker 1: to dress a certain way. You know, my mother is
Speaker 1: big on pearls. Get over at Mom. I'm not wearing
Speaker 1: Pearls always that he at pearl debate. Yeah, the heated
Speaker 1: Pearl's bait every year. Well, and part of it's weird
Speaker 1: because I do, you know, dress how I dress, and
Speaker 1: everybody's okay with it, and that just happens to be
Speaker 1: how I, you know, feel good about myself. Unfortunately, nobody's
Speaker 1: tassling me about it. But me doing my thing doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that Nicki Minaj has to do my thing, or
Speaker 1: Beyonce has to do my thing, or that I can't
Speaker 1: enjoy their things. Yea, let women be the modey, letting
Speaker 1: women govern themselves. Ye Speaking of how to dress and Beyonce,
Speaker 1: one of at least for me, one of the most
Speaker 1: disappointing things that we have experienced with our podcast audience
Speaker 1: was after we did an episode on Beyonce's feminism. We
Speaker 1: heard from not an overwhelming amount of people, but enough
Speaker 1: people that it was troubling who said Beyonce can't be
Speaker 1: a feminist role model because she dresses and dances too sexily.
Speaker 1: And it was so disheartening because I mean, on so
Speaker 1: many levels. So do you have any any insight to
Speaker 1: help help unpack why why those two can co exist? Well,
Speaker 1: here's the thing. What it comes down to is, at
Speaker 1: least right now, the current culture, you can't slutch hamp
Speaker 1: anybody except for women of color, except for black women specifically.
Speaker 1: You can slutch him that as much do you want. Apparently,
Speaker 1: I think um a lot of it just I think
Speaker 1: Beyonce touch is so much flack. And I'm gonna straight
Speaker 1: up say, I'm like, I'm a huge Beyonce stand I
Speaker 1: have been since I was a teenager. Um, and so
Speaker 1: I am very biased towards Queen Bee. But I think
Speaker 1: a lot of the people just don't want to see
Speaker 1: a black woman thriving to the expit that Beyonce is thriving.
Speaker 1: I think, um, Beyonce, the way she presents to herself
Speaker 1: and the way she dances, in a way she conveys
Speaker 1: herself through her lyrics is not very different from say
Speaker 1: the the white pop stars up today. But I'm always
Speaker 1: sid dying when people comfort Beyonce. Meanwhile, you have sailing
Speaker 1: a Lady Gaga or I don't know whoever the white
Speaker 1: pop stars are. I admittedly do not follow them, but
Speaker 1: whoever they are, the criticism it's never equal, and so
Speaker 1: I think people really have to confront their feelings about
Speaker 1: black women first of all, before you can even start
Speaker 1: to accept Beyonce as her own person. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: if it comes down to, what's the thing and there's
Speaker 1: a magazine that's coming out now or is coming out
Speaker 1: soon about Miley Cyrus and how how it's still wonderful
Speaker 1: that Miley Cyrus is exploring her sexuality and identifying herself
Speaker 1: as sort of pan sexual and under fluid and all
Speaker 1: of this other business. But you know, but Nicki Ben
Speaker 1: is just a slut right, and it's things It's so
Speaker 1: reductive and just like stupid when you hear these arguments,
Speaker 1: because you're like, you can they bring out all the
Speaker 1: feminist buzzwords for a Mody Cyrus or a Taylor Swift
Speaker 1: and these keeps and these two people just as an example,
Speaker 1: or a Katie Perry, you can still they but studying Beyonce.
Speaker 1: So it's weird for them to like hold these people
Speaker 1: up as an example of feminity done the right way
Speaker 1: when they're taking cues from Beyonce. But also I think
Speaker 1: as far as the whole feminist conversaking, those I had
Speaker 1: to disengage because I was just still like infuriating, just
Speaker 1: as a black woman is and as a Beyonce stand
Speaker 1: the constantly going to be like you're a whole thing.
Speaker 1: So I think people could have had to reevaluate what
Speaker 1: they consider feminists and where they're Feminism stance stems from
Speaker 1: I think for a lot of women of color, and
Speaker 1: I said earlier femine as them as a verb. It
Speaker 1: was learned by We learned and by from our mothers
Speaker 1: and our grandmothers and our our aunts and other women
Speaker 1: in our lives. And it wasn't something we had to
Speaker 1: go to, you know, academia to learn. It was something
Speaker 1: that was ingrained into us within our communities. And I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people gravitate towards Beyonce because she's
Speaker 1: been able to She's been able to show that throughout
Speaker 1: her music. So she's always had these really like pro
Speaker 1: women's stance stances and her music, even with Destiny's Child,
Speaker 1: and she's always talked about how her mom sold all
Speaker 1: these things into her, and so it's so relatable when
Speaker 1: you step outside of whatever you're holding it against black
Speaker 1: women and you can and you just take the message
Speaker 1: for what it is, and the message is empowerment. It's
Speaker 1: you don't need a man to be successful. It's cool
Speaker 1: if you have one. Love is awesome, but I could
Speaker 1: be just as awesome without this man. Or you don't
Speaker 1: have to. You don't have to be career focused all
Speaker 1: the time. You can have a baby and with all
Speaker 1: your heart, and you can be a mom and still
Speaker 1: be and still be focused on you know, your career
Speaker 1: if you want to. You can er wise, it was awesome,
Speaker 1: and still be a feminist, still be a mom, and
Speaker 1: still be a mobile. But you can do all of
Speaker 1: these things. And I just don't see. I just don't
Speaker 1: see how people can reduce that too. Well, she has
Speaker 1: her butt out again, but's awesome if I had that,
Speaker 1: but I'd have it out. I'll date you. Just be reasonable,
Speaker 1: I know, right. Yeah, Like our new our new work
Speaker 1: dress code is no pants, but I mean that can
Speaker 1: be the dress code and podcasting, I guess. Yeah, who's
Speaker 1: to say whether we all are wearing our dress code
Speaker 1: is usually cats. That's wonderful. Yeah, Well, I feel like
Speaker 1: this Beyonce conversation actually relates directly to um something we
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about in terms of the conversation on
Speaker 1: black girls talking about the saw women hashtag and that
Speaker 1: tendency of white feminists in particular to exercise some double standards,
Speaker 1: a lot of erasures and tokenizing of black women's lived
Speaker 1: experiences and values. And as a white feminist who has
Speaker 1: likely been guilty of one or all of these kinds
Speaker 1: of things, how do I improve my intersectionality? And is
Speaker 1: me even asking this question part of the problem? Um?
Speaker 1: I think I'm okay, I'll just real talk. I'm whenever
Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter and I'm just kind of making jokes
Speaker 1: or maybe I'm having like point discussions, which lately isn't
Speaker 1: really the case for me on Twitter right now it's
Speaker 1: just skincare and my obsession with dirtbag rappers. But normally
Speaker 1: whenever I'm trying to have a good conversation and soon
Speaker 1: interrupts and they're like, well, how can I And I'm
Speaker 1: just like, oh God, please don't like, please just google
Speaker 1: and come back to this conversation. But I also think
Speaker 1: that at some point you're gonna we do have to
Speaker 1: not hand hold not like hold hands with you know,
Speaker 1: white them, inocent guide them. But I think we do
Speaker 1: have to be somewhat open to creating this dialogue for
Speaker 1: people who are actively trying to be better. So I'll
Speaker 1: send it so for me, the most I can do, Uh,
Speaker 1: I'm what I'm best at is sending people resources so
Speaker 1: you know, you can read these books or you can
Speaker 1: read these blogs or that's that's how I engage with that.
Speaker 1: I think you're really in Remove and Fatima are a
Speaker 1: lot more engaging or as I'm just like just you know,
Speaker 1: here's some stuff for you to read. But I do
Speaker 1: think it's I don't so I don't think it's an
Speaker 1: issue that you're asking. I think it's this issue of
Speaker 1: how you ask, Like if you're genuinely if you're genuinely
Speaker 1: interested and you're not just trying to come up as
Speaker 1: you know, the good white feminists. If you're actually interested
Speaker 1: and learn these things and you're taking the advice, then
Speaker 1: that's it's great that you're asking. And I think the
Speaker 1: best way for you to confront all the double standards
Speaker 1: in mainstream feminism it's just to kind of like be
Speaker 1: aware of your entitlement as your privilege as a white woman,
Speaker 1: and that it's tough. It's really tough. I know, even
Speaker 1: there's I have, there are privileges I hold even within
Speaker 1: my community, and it's tough having to confront those before
Speaker 1: I step into a conversation. But I think it has
Speaker 1: to be at the forefeit of your mind is being
Speaker 1: mindful of the space you might be taking up, and
Speaker 1: being mindful of the voices you could be exulting in
Speaker 1: favor of yours. Yeah, I think, Well, the easiest example
Speaker 1: that I could I always give people when they asked
Speaker 1: stuff like this is, you know, you think of society,
Speaker 1: or you think of feminism as a house, and you
Speaker 1: think of you know, the house has a you know,
Speaker 1: basement foundation, you know, main floor, top floor, attic, roof,
Speaker 1: all that kind of business. And the only and let's say,
Speaker 1: this house is sinking. And that's because you know, the
Speaker 1: foundation of this house isn't being nurtured, and the foundation
Speaker 1: of this house isn't being cared for. And you can
Speaker 1: add as many floors as you want, or fix up
Speaker 1: the rest of the house as much as you want,
Speaker 1: that house is still going to sink if the foundation
Speaker 1: is not right. So the only way to lift this
Speaker 1: house is to lift the foundation. And so if you
Speaker 1: think of those of us in society with the least
Speaker 1: amount of privilege, and and and there's something that I
Speaker 1: have to think about myself, because I get I hold privileges,
Speaker 1: and I am totally open about that, and so when
Speaker 1: these conversations come around, I don't try to insert myself
Speaker 1: in conversations that aren't about me. But you know, you
Speaker 1: try to lift the foundation as much as you can,
Speaker 1: and you repair it and you nurture it and you
Speaker 1: care for it, and that's the only way that this
Speaker 1: house is going to get back to where it needs
Speaker 1: to be and be sturdy and be strong and hold
Speaker 1: up for the next thousand years. Well, it sounds like
Speaker 1: it's not the first time you've had to answer this
Speaker 1: question too, so you've got some practice. And one thing
Speaker 1: that came to my mind too is you're talking about
Speaker 1: resources and checking privilege and all of that is what
Speaker 1: you all said earlier of feminism and feminists. Excuse me
Speaker 1: is a verb, so it requires action on our parts
Speaker 1: and not just maybe sitting passively and raising our hand
Speaker 1: and allowing someone else to do the work for us
Speaker 1: in terms of telling us what to do. And then
Speaker 1: when you have privileges, it's being a verb. Is also
Speaker 1: using your privilege to help the situation, but not using
Speaker 1: it to talk over the people that the conversation is about.
Speaker 1: When the conversation is about somebody other than yourself. And
Speaker 1: I think people here privilege, they automatically think that. I
Speaker 1: think they're automatically try to guilt as if they should
Speaker 1: feel guilty or like renounced their privilege, Like you can't.
Speaker 1: You can there's no way to renounce the privilege. So
Speaker 1: I think you have to, like I said, you just
Speaker 1: have to be mindful of how this privilege makes your
Speaker 1: life maybe easier than the next person's life. And yeah,
Speaker 1: this you and figure out how you can level the
Speaker 1: playing field as much as you can. So talking about
Speaker 1: feeling guilty and kind of wallowing in that guilt and
Speaker 1: apologizing this apologies really mean nothing. Action is what is
Speaker 1: going Action, It's what we all need. Yep. Yeah, So,
Speaker 1: you know, your answer to Christen's question about the s
Speaker 1: al women hashtag and intersectionality really made me think about
Speaker 1: your conversation with Janet Mack, which is fascinating and I
Speaker 1: was absolutely hanging on every word of that episode. Um,
Speaker 1: but you know, you guys touched on that concept of
Speaker 1: the hand holding of white feminists. But so that being said,
Speaker 1: do your personal desires to have your voices heard and
Speaker 1: have your creative work recognized, do those feel overshadowed by
Speaker 1: expectations to represent and answer for your culture at large.
Speaker 1: I'd say absolutely not. I've made it pretty clear that
Speaker 1: I live my life for myself and I do my
Speaker 1: work for myself when it's personal work. I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're not a monolith. We're all very complex people. I
Speaker 1: think it's just like, you know, it's kind of like
Speaker 1: when the man we're gonna go to this a group
Speaker 1: of woman and be like, why do you guys do this?
Speaker 1: Like it's no one can give you a concrete answer,
Speaker 1: Like we're all we're all individuals. And I think, um,
Speaker 1: maybe a lot. I did a lot of people their
Speaker 1: ideas of blacks are formed by what we see in
Speaker 1: the media and on TV, and as always like this
Speaker 1: very it's it's either, you know, it's either Love and
Speaker 1: Hip Hop or the Tyler Perry Show. So I just
Speaker 1: know in between that people are confused that they don't
Speaker 1: actually know black people. Um So I think the best
Speaker 1: thing I can do is just be Alicia, And the
Speaker 1: best thing anybody else can do is just be themselves
Speaker 1: and not trying to answer for everyone else for the
Speaker 1: entire race. You can't do it. You will kill yourself
Speaker 1: trying to be responsible and accountable for every Black experience,
Speaker 1: Like I like, even like, what is the black experience?
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, it's so vast. So I think for us,
Speaker 1: we're just focused on being true to ourselves and putting
Speaker 1: that out into the universe. And sometimes people wanted to talk.
Speaker 1: Sometimes people want to talk about you know, the whatever
Speaker 1: the hot topic is on Twitter or you know, black Twitter,
Speaker 1: and sometimes we're just like, well, but we want to
Speaker 1: talk about this or this is what's happening in our lives.
Speaker 1: So the best thing you can do is just create
Speaker 1: your own narrative. And that's what we're trying to do. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: And you know what, you know, the old respectability politics
Speaker 1: saying that pops back up as like, well you have
Speaker 1: to represent everybody because if somebody sees you, they're going
Speaker 1: to think that all black folks act like that, and
Speaker 1: well that's their problem. That's not your problem, exactly, not
Speaker 1: my problem. If you somebody is a racist, that's not
Speaker 1: my problem. Yeah. Me tweeting Bible quotes all day is
Speaker 1: not going to change your racist opinion of what, you know,
Speaker 1: who a black woman is. So I know the day,
Speaker 1: it just makes you serve to be well, I like
Speaker 1: you because you're good. I'm an issue of exceptionalism. Yeah right,
Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna be treating myself. That's the tweet
Speaker 1: about how how cute Drake is. And maybe sometimes I'll
Speaker 1: tweet about how awful racism is. But I'm never going
Speaker 1: to put myself in a box because other people might
Speaker 1: be watching, like that's just no way for anyone to live.
Speaker 1: M I don't live in a zoo. I live in
Speaker 1: my life exactly. And from where Caroline and I are sitting,
Speaker 1: recognizing and checking the white privilege that fosters that kind
Speaker 1: of exceptionalism and doing our part to not feed into
Speaker 1: that and to feed into your respectability politics is important
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, yeah, for sure, that's definitely part of
Speaker 1: the work. And I think I know it can be.
Speaker 1: There's so ability politics, it's so like ingrained into the
Speaker 1: black community, so as the outsider looking in, it can
Speaker 1: just look like like where do I even start? And
Speaker 1: it's okay to not know what's going on because it's
Speaker 1: not part of your culture, you know. But I think
Speaker 1: you just have to be mindful that there may be
Speaker 1: struggles you're not going to understand, but you can still
Speaker 1: respond to them in a respectful way, or don't if
Speaker 1: you don't feel like you can't like, yeah, it's okay,
Speaker 1: did not say anything? Yeah, for sure. I think there's
Speaker 1: so many things that we can know. We were just like, well,
Speaker 1: we don't know, so we just kind of don't. We
Speaker 1: don't address them, or we educate ourselves, or we get
Speaker 1: somebody else to come in and speak on their experiences.
Speaker 1: So yeah, if you there are so many things that
Speaker 1: I just don't get that are currently going on in
Speaker 1: the world. But being a human, I can empathize and
Speaker 1: I can understand that maybe it's just not my place
Speaker 1: to know. Do you get a lot because you guys
Speaker 1: have such an amazing podcast in your voices are also unique.
Speaker 1: Do you get a lot of that from people being like, well,
Speaker 1: but I need you to explain I need you to
Speaker 1: explain black women to me, Like do you get tell you?
Speaker 1: But that's that's we we made we we we made sure.
Speaker 1: That's yeah. I think we've been. I love that we've been.
Speaker 1: Like we're all like, we're all being pretty cool people.
Speaker 1: I think we're all very like open and accessible at
Speaker 1: least you know online, and we're not like very scand
Speaker 1: office put the buck out we all kind of close
Speaker 1: in rnks, like this is not a podcast for you,
Speaker 1: my friend, Like it's okay for you to move on,
Speaker 1: It's okay. Well, And this also drives home to the
Speaker 1: importance of learning how to listen without necessarily needing to
Speaker 1: respond and black girls talking. I mean, it's why everyone
Speaker 1: should listen to black girls talking because it will teach
Speaker 1: you of anything, how to listen. Just sit and listen,
Speaker 1: put your headphones on, at least from where I'm sitting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe it's just me. That's all we ask anybody to do,
Speaker 1: is you know, sit and subscribe and listen. Yeah, put
Speaker 1: on your caftan, listen to the show. Even nice cold
Speaker 1: glass of moscato. Perfect. I want to be there right now,
Speaker 1: like out on out on a porch with some moscato
Speaker 1: and a caftan. Yeah, listening to you all where Golden
Speaker 1: Girls two point out? Oh yeah, that may have been
Speaker 1: a question that we answered on the podcast Old Girl
Speaker 1: We Eat for which one? Well, since you're here, I mean,
Speaker 1: what were your answers? I was a mix between Sophia
Speaker 1: and uh blanch we were all blanch all. I was
Speaker 1: Sophia because of my apprehension towards the youth, we were
Speaker 1: all blanch and nobody was Rose. Nobody was ro Rose.
Speaker 1: But there's probably a Rose listening, and she's so confused
Speaker 1: right now. We love you Rose, mean we did truly
Speaker 1: love you. Rose. Bring so much sunshine to this world?
Speaker 1: So what is next for black girls talking? And what
Speaker 1: are you getting? A TV? Show? Because I love listening
Speaker 1: to somebody wants to give us one. Whenever somebody wants
Speaker 1: to give us one, we are ready for it. Oprah?
Speaker 1: Are you out there? Were ready? I asked out every day?
Speaker 1: Oh are you out there? Are you there? Oprah? It's me,
Speaker 1: Christian's me? You guys follow Ober on Instagram? Do we?
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, it's great. Oh my gosh, I'm
Speaker 1: clearly not living my best life. It's so soothing to
Speaker 1: watch her in her garden and she makes videos where
Speaker 1: she's like holding ahead of Lettuce. It's awesome. I do
Speaker 1: follow the oh magazine Pinterest, which is like the epitome
Speaker 1: of um, what's the word aspirational living? Like? Please, Opra,
Speaker 1: give me more quotes to live by? Yes? I follow
Speaker 1: Oper on Instagram, on Twitter and on in Interest's just wonderful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So where can listeners go to learn more about Black
Speaker 1: Girls Talking to listen to read what you're reading, follow
Speaker 1: what you're following, learn about all of you. Wonderful host
Speaker 1: all that good stuff Black Girls Talking dot com that
Speaker 1: has links to everything. Yeah, and if you go to
Speaker 1: our Twitter specifically, you can find all of our Twitter feeds.
Speaker 1: So if you go to it's be Okay Girls Talking,
Speaker 1: that's our Twitter handle, and you'll be able to find
Speaker 1: all of us on Twitter through that one handle. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and subscribe to the podcast. That's how you don't miss anything.
Speaker 1: So if you have an eyeball on our iTunes, subscribe
Speaker 1: to iTunes. If you don't, um stitcher or sound club. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's all. All those links are on Black Girls
Speaker 1: Talking dot com. So I just want to say thank
Speaker 1: you so much to Alicia and Aurelia from Black Girls Talking.
Speaker 1: If you want to hear more about them or learn
Speaker 1: more about their podcast, just head on over to black
Speaker 1: Girls Talking dot com. And we want to hear from you. Now,
Speaker 1: what did you think about our conversation with these women
Speaker 1: and the things that we talked about today. Where we're
Speaker 1: really interested in hearing from you. You can email us
Speaker 1: at mom stuff at how stuff works dot com. You
Speaker 1: can tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or message us
Speaker 1: on Facebook, and we have a couple of messages to
Speaker 1: share with you. All right now, Well, I have a
Speaker 1: letter here from Pearl in response to our Women on
Speaker 1: the ten Dollar Bill episode, our ten dollar Women episode.
Speaker 1: She says, I'm a huge fan of your podcast and
Speaker 1: was really excited to listen to the episode about women
Speaker 1: on the ten dollar Bill. I agree that the current
Speaker 1: proposal is not nearly good enough and that a woman
Speaker 1: should be featured alone on the twenty I appreciated hearing
Speaker 1: about the numerous options of very qualified women to grace
Speaker 1: the redesign note, but there was one woman who wasn't
Speaker 1: mentioned who deserves consideration. Francis Perkins. In addition to being
Speaker 1: the nation's first female member of a presidential cabinet, late
Speaker 1: Labor Secretary Perkins did more for working Americans than any
Speaker 1: other person in the nation's history. Before joining FDRs cabinet,
Speaker 1: Perkins was a tireless advocate for working people in New
Speaker 1: York State and saw firsthand the horrible working conditions that
Speaker 1: many workers, especially women, faced in factories. When she personally
Speaker 1: witnessed the horrors of the Triangle shirt waste factory fire
Speaker 1: from the streets below. She fought hard for the creation
Speaker 1: of a minimum wage an unemployment insurance program, as well
Speaker 1: has developed some of the nation's first child labor laws.
Speaker 1: As Labor Secretary, she practically built FDR's New Deal and
Speaker 1: worked to create the first social safety net in the country.
Speaker 1: Social Security Secretary perkins work has touched the lives of
Speaker 1: pretty much every American, and she is well worthy of
Speaker 1: a place on currency. Secretary Perkins is a hero of
Speaker 1: mine for many reasons, several of which have already described.
Speaker 1: She also did something that holds a special place in
Speaker 1: my heart. She fought in court to keep her name
Speaker 1: when she was married as a fellow kept her name
Speaker 1: when she married Lady. That act made me feel that
Speaker 1: we would have been great friends had we been alive
Speaker 1: at the same time. And as a fourth generation union
Speaker 1: member who works for a union, her victories for working
Speaker 1: people will always make me think of her as one
Speaker 1: of our greatest Americans. If you'd like to read more
Speaker 1: about Secretary perkins life and work, I highly recommend Kristin
Speaker 1: Downey's biography, The Woman Behind the New Deal. Thanks for
Speaker 1: all your great work on the podcast, and who knows,
Speaker 1: maybe Sminthy could show Francis Perkinson podcasting Love Well Pearl.
Speaker 1: I think that sounds like a great idea. And speaking
Speaker 1: of recommendations, we've got a letter here from Fiona in
Speaker 1: response to her Impresses of Science Fiction episode. She says,
Speaker 1: I've finally gotten around to listening to the impasses of
Speaker 1: science fiction, which is awesome. I'm writing because I've fallen
Speaker 1: in love with a wonderful novel, Midnight Robber by Naylo Hockinson.
Speaker 1: It's a far future story of interplanetary travel and artificially
Speaker 1: intelligent nanotech, but it's grounded in Caribbean dialect and the
Speaker 1: structure of a Nazi stories i e. West African and
Speaker 1: Caribbean folk tales. It's also deeply feminist, not in the
Speaker 1: sense of having a political agenda, but in the sense
Speaker 1: of unapologetically and unflinchingly exploring the experience of a woman
Speaker 1: living in a difficult world. If I wasn't busy evangelizing
Speaker 1: about Midnight Robber, I'd also be shouting from the rooftops
Speaker 1: about two other awesome novels. Station eleven by Emily Saint
Speaker 1: John Mandel explores the impact of a devastating pandemic on
Speaker 1: individuals and on culture. The Fifteen Lives of Harry August
Speaker 1: by Claire North is easily the most interesting and fresh
Speaker 1: take on time travel that I've ever come across. Both
Speaker 1: are great reads and definitely a bit of a quicker
Speaker 1: read than Midnight Robber for anyone who finds Hopkinson's Caribbean
Speaker 1: English difficult to follow. Thank you for a great episode
Speaker 1: time for me to comb through your list and decide
Speaker 1: what's next for me. So thank you, Fienna, and thanks
Speaker 1: to everyone for writing in. We love hearing from you.
Speaker 1: For links to all of our social media and to
Speaker 1: our sources so you can follow along. Visit stuff Mom
Speaker 1: Never Told You dot com for more on this and
Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Doesn't how stuff Works dot com