Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You From how Supports
Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and today we are so excited to
Speaker 1: be talking to host of w n y c s
Speaker 1: The Longest Shortest Time and also this American life producer,
Speaker 1: Hillary Frank. That's right, Christen's conversation with Hillary is kicking
Speaker 1: off podcast summer camp. So basically, this summer we are
Speaker 1: talking to a bunch of fellow lady podcasters about what
Speaker 1: they do, why they do it, where their interests lie,
Speaker 1: and how they got to where they are. Basically, I
Speaker 1: think we kind of selfishly wanted to hear that from
Speaker 1: other podcasters. And when it comes to podcasts that I
Speaker 1: personally love, Caroline The Longest Shortest Time is definitely at
Speaker 1: the top of the list because it feels a lot
Speaker 1: like the kinds of in depth, candid listener stories that
Speaker 1: we get so often, and The Longest Shortest Time is
Speaker 1: also focused around parenthood and also just familihood more generally,
Speaker 1: so it really feels like a kindred podcast to me. Well, Kristen,
Speaker 1: how did you get interested in it? If it is
Speaker 1: a podcast about parenting? Neither one of us is a parent. Well,
Speaker 1: it was actually a parent friend who first mentioned it
Speaker 1: to me and said, you have to talk about this.
Speaker 1: They talked about all sorts of things that you cover on,
Speaker 1: stuff I've never told you, and so I did, and
Speaker 1: I was hooked because it very much does have and
Speaker 1: almost this American life feel to it, because Hillary has
Speaker 1: such an incredible way of engaging her guests to really
Speaker 1: mind the depths of what it means to be a parent,
Speaker 1: beyond what we normally read on parenting blogs or in
Speaker 1: all the different parenting books you might see. It really
Speaker 1: gets to the nitty gritty of what it's like and
Speaker 1: how unglamorous and difficult it often is, and also too
Speaker 1: incredibly rewarding of course. Well, so what was your favorite
Speaker 1: part of speaking with Hillary? Well, selfishly, because like you mentioned,
Speaker 1: I am not a parent at this point, but you
Speaker 1: and I are at an age when friends of ours
Speaker 1: are becoming parents. And one thing that I was so
Speaker 1: glad to get her insight on was bridging the parent
Speaker 1: nonparent divide, because I think a lot of times, especially
Speaker 1: in pop culture, we see this division between oh here
Speaker 1: the non parents who are still cool and we can
Speaker 1: hang out as late as we want to, and then
Speaker 1: there the loom parents, and all you want to do
Speaker 1: is talk about their babies and play dates and things
Speaker 1: like that, and you can't possibly get along. How could
Speaker 1: friendships survived that? Um? But Hillary talks a lot about
Speaker 1: how it is absolutely possible to survive the survive kids
Speaker 1: getting in the way of of your lady friendships or
Speaker 1: just general couple of friendships, or I'm just saying friendship,
Speaker 1: different types of friendships, the various classifications of friendships. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's good to know. I'm actually getting dinner with one
Speaker 1: of my best lady friends in second grade here pretty soon,
Speaker 1: and she is about to have her third So that's
Speaker 1: good to know that there's hope first remain friends and
Speaker 1: other I was gonna say twenty something years, but now
Speaker 1: it's been more than twenty something years. Friendship is more
Speaker 1: powerful than baby scare one. Yeah, babies are very powerful.
Speaker 1: They're very very weak. They don't can't even stand I
Speaker 1: don't have much next strength. They can't even feed themselves. Well.
Speaker 1: To kick things off, Hillary is going to introduce herself
Speaker 1: and how she got started in radio, which then lad
Speaker 1: to podcasting and the longest shortest time, So, dear listeners,
Speaker 1: please enjoy my chat with Hillary Frank. My name's Hillary Frank,
Speaker 1: and I have been a radio producer for sixteen years. UM.
Speaker 1: I started out UM doing some work for This American
Speaker 1: Life as a freelancer, and then moved on to freelancing
Speaker 1: for a lot of different radio shows. UM. And I've
Speaker 1: also written three young adult novels UM that that I
Speaker 1: illustrated my degrees actually in UM drawing in drawing naked
Speaker 1: people like yeah yeah. I studied UM like anatomical drawing
Speaker 1: UM at the New York Academy of Art, and while
Speaker 1: I was there, got my first story on This American
Speaker 1: Life and wound up going into radio. Well, I have
Speaker 1: to ask, then, what was your first story on this
Speaker 1: American Life? My first story was something I put together
Speaker 1: using a boom box and answering machine micro cassette answering machine. UM.
Speaker 1: Those were the tools of the day, I guess, or
Speaker 1: what was accessible to me as someone who didn't know
Speaker 1: how to make professional radio. And I did a story
Speaker 1: about my two friends in college who pretended to be
Speaker 1: a giant. One got on the other's shoulders and they
Speaker 1: would wrap a blanket around themselves and wear like a
Speaker 1: long UM kind of kiss style wig um, and they
Speaker 1: called themselves Giant Man and um. They would like show
Speaker 1: up on the Quad at night and they would post
Speaker 1: these like posters flyers all over campus saying like, uh,
Speaker 1: Giant Man will be appearing on the Quad, and he
Speaker 1: would he would show up and just be like I
Speaker 1: am giant, I am huge, and I'm a benevolent giant Man,
Speaker 1: and I have come to shower you with butter Scotch candy.
Speaker 1: And he would like throw butter scotch candy at the crowd.
Speaker 1: But the thing was that everyone who didn't actually see
Speaker 1: Giant Man believed that he was real and um and
Speaker 1: there and it was in. People believed it so much
Speaker 1: that like there were professors discussing in philosophy classes whether
Speaker 1: or not um, we were exploiting a freak of nature. Wow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I interviewed my friend who was the top half
Speaker 1: of Giant Man. Oh man, that sounds fantastic. Um. Well,
Speaker 1: for listeners who might not be familiar with the Longest
Speaker 1: Shortest Time, can you tell us a little bit about
Speaker 1: it and where the idea came from? Yeah? So, um,
Speaker 1: The Longest Shortest Time is a podcast I started when
Speaker 1: my daughter was about ten months old. UM, I had
Speaker 1: a really rough delivery and recovery UM from childbirth. I
Speaker 1: had an episiotomy, which is you know when they cut
Speaker 1: you to help get the baby out, and then my
Speaker 1: stitches busted um a week later and I needed to
Speaker 1: get recut and stitched um and that was like actually
Speaker 1: more traumatic than anything that had calmed down in the
Speaker 1: in the actual birth. And I wasn't able to walk
Speaker 1: UM for the first two months of my daughter's life.
Speaker 1: And I couldn't like I couldn't do the kinds of
Speaker 1: things that you want to be able to do when
Speaker 1: you're a new mom, Like UM, I couldn't bounce her.
Speaker 1: I couldn't um get into the right position to breastfeed her.
Speaker 1: I couldn't change her diaper. I couldn't give her a bath,
Speaker 1: and like those are things that not everyone relish is doing,
Speaker 1: but like you want to be able to take care
Speaker 1: of your kid when when you first have one. And UM,
Speaker 1: I also couldn't go upstairs. We lived in an apartment
Speaker 1: UM where our bedroom was on I was upstairs, in
Speaker 1: the bathroom was downstairs, so I I slept in our
Speaker 1: very dark, tiny living room on a air mattress for
Speaker 1: the first eight weeks of her life. UM. So it
Speaker 1: was like a really dark time. And we moved four
Speaker 1: months after she was born to a town where I
Speaker 1: didn't know any body, and it looked to me like
Speaker 1: everyone was having an easier time than I was. UM
Speaker 1: And you know, I would I wanted to make friends,
Speaker 1: and so it would like, let's say I would be
Speaker 1: at a coffee shop and I would see somebody UM
Speaker 1: holding a very tiny baby, and I'd be like, wow,
Speaker 1: look at you. You're you're doing it. That's great. And
Speaker 1: they would be like, well, it's been two weeks, and
Speaker 1: and for me, it was just such a like uh,
Speaker 1: like a punch in the gut, and I felt like,
Speaker 1: how was I going to continue to have a conversation
Speaker 1: with anyone like that? UM And So I felt an
Speaker 1: urgent need to know that other people were struggling, even
Speaker 1: if it wasn't the same exact struggle that I had.
Speaker 1: I needed to know that it wasn't super easy for
Speaker 1: everybody else. UM. And I also knew that UM as
Speaker 1: as an experienced radio producer, I knew that having a
Speaker 1: microphone kind of gives you license to ask somebody anything.
Speaker 1: So that's what I did. I started um, interviewing people
Speaker 1: about their struggles and and and in the beginning, it
Speaker 1: started out as this very kind of selfish thing that
Speaker 1: was very cathartic for me and then and and podcasting
Speaker 1: wasn't so big back then, and so um it felt
Speaker 1: almost like this private thing, even though I was putting
Speaker 1: it out there. And I said at the end of
Speaker 1: the show, Um, if you want to tell your story
Speaker 1: of a surprising struggle in parenthood, email me. And I
Speaker 1: started getting emails right away from strangers who wanted to
Speaker 1: talk to me. And it started out with us like
Speaker 1: coordinating during our kids nap times, really like getting twenty
Speaker 1: minutes in here and there to talk to people. And
Speaker 1: these like mostly strangers to me, would wind up crying.
Speaker 1: Almost everyone cried in that first year. And Um, and
Speaker 1: what I learned was that it was becoming cathartic to
Speaker 1: other people as well. What do you think, then, is
Speaker 1: the root of that catharsis? Why why is talking about
Speaker 1: the experiences so particularly cathartical, especially during that period of
Speaker 1: time as being new parents? Yeah? So, UM, I think
Speaker 1: that the first thing you want to hear when you're
Speaker 1: going through something difficult, no matter what it is, is
Speaker 1: that you want to you want to hear someone telling you, um,
Speaker 1: that you're not alone. And that's what UM I think
Speaker 1: the podcast had the power to do on a very
Speaker 1: basic level, was just someone in your ear being like,
Speaker 1: you can calm down, take a deep breath, You're not
Speaker 1: the only one. UM. And then and then the other
Speaker 1: thing that it does is that, UM, when you hear
Speaker 1: that someone had a struggle that um is different from yours,
Speaker 1: maybe just as intense, but different, it reminds you that, um,
Speaker 1: you had an easier time with something else, something that
Speaker 1: they didn't have an easy time with. And UM, I
Speaker 1: think it can be really nice to remember that too. UM.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think I think it kind of does
Speaker 1: these two things. And I don't think it's necessarily particular
Speaker 1: to new parenthood. I think anyone who's going through a
Speaker 1: time of crisis, well it seems like you know, the
Speaker 1: longest shortest time really focuses in on that need for
Speaker 1: that kind of that kind of real talk of understanding
Speaker 1: each other's struggles and the strengths that you might have
Speaker 1: that you didn't realize that you had. And when it
Speaker 1: comes to childbirth and parenting, at least from I have
Speaker 1: more of an outside perspective. I'm not a parent, but
Speaker 1: it seems like there's so much information these days of
Speaker 1: what to expect when you're expecting, and you know, all
Speaker 1: of all of the things that you can read about
Speaker 1: how things will go, and yet it still seems like
Speaker 1: there's this vacuum, this communication vacuum of what it's actually like.
Speaker 1: And I was wondering why you think that might be.
Speaker 1: For all the information we have, why is it perhaps
Speaker 1: still I don't know, hard to talk about or UM. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well it's really scary to like talk about vaginal injuries,
Speaker 1: I mean, UM, and and that's and and there's a
Speaker 1: good reason for that. I mean, I think that women
Speaker 1: who talk about it really run the risk of being
Speaker 1: called hysterical and in uh ingrateful for UM, especially like
Speaker 1: if you have a healthy child, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: people who will tell you you should just be happy
Speaker 1: that you had a healthy child. And I'm of course
Speaker 1: incredibly grateful that, like endlessly grateful that I have a
Speaker 1: healthy child. But I don't think that should negate the
Speaker 1: fact that, UM, there can be some real physical and
Speaker 1: psychological damage done UM two people in childbirth, and UM
Speaker 1: that that needs to be dealt with um. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think if you out yourself as someone who is
Speaker 1: dealing with postpartum depression or anxiety or um a vaginal injury, um,
Speaker 1: you are putting yourself in a position of seeming hysterical
Speaker 1: and and and and like like you don't know what
Speaker 1: really matters, and like I it took me three years
Speaker 1: to find help for my injury. Um I was. I
Speaker 1: was in pain for that long and it wasn't really
Speaker 1: something I felt like I could talk about fully until
Speaker 1: I had gotten healed and I was on the other
Speaker 1: side of it. But um, yeah, it's just there's a
Speaker 1: real stigma to talking about it. Do you think it's
Speaker 1: maybe part of a broader cultural problem we have with
Speaker 1: not taking women's health concerns, whether they're physical or mental seriously. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I do. It's it's a hard thing to understand if
Speaker 1: you haven't been through it, and there's not enough people
Speaker 1: advocating for the fact that this stuff is real and
Speaker 1: it does real damage to people, and it's sort of
Speaker 1: easy to walk around to protect and like stuff isn't
Speaker 1: happening inside your head um or inside a part of
Speaker 1: your body that nobody can see. Um, And so without
Speaker 1: those kind of strong voices out there being advocates for
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. It's hard, I think for other
Speaker 1: people to imagine that it's real. Well, and do you
Speaker 1: think there's also an external pressure put on new moms
Speaker 1: in particular to be extremely happy and like you said,
Speaker 1: very grateful and everything's fine and and what a joyous time. Definitely.
Speaker 1: I mean it's interesting. I feel like parenting media most
Speaker 1: often is either you know, that kind of thing like,
Speaker 1: yeah you have you have to be happy about everything, um,
Speaker 1: or kind of braggy about what a bad mom you are.
Speaker 1: And they both kind of rubbed me the wrong way, um,
Speaker 1: Because I just think being a parent is a complex
Speaker 1: part of life, just like anything, and so why can't
Speaker 1: we talk about it in a complicated way. Well, it's
Speaker 1: also been interesting to see, um, in celebrity culture, how
Speaker 1: there's been this recent obsession with these new celebrity moms
Speaker 1: who don't look like they ever were pregnant at any
Speaker 1: point at all. And it's it's so it's not only
Speaker 1: this cultural pressure to be super happy but also look fantastic,
Speaker 1: super thin exactly. And then and the thing that people
Speaker 1: need to remember is that number one that's there, like
Speaker 1: full time job, is to look awesome, and they have
Speaker 1: people watching their babies while they do that. Um. And
Speaker 1: the other thing is I think that that's really dangerous
Speaker 1: for the media to be congratulating celebrity moms for looking
Speaker 1: amazing after having a baby, because it makes everyone else
Speaker 1: feel like they need to pressure themselves into doing that too. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Definitely seems like the phrase pre baby body is a
Speaker 1: bit misleading for for women. Um, well I just did.
Speaker 1: I just did an episode with Jean Marie who um
Speaker 1: the style and beauty blogger for Jezebel, and Um, she
Speaker 1: kind of shamed me into talking about my pre baby body,
Speaker 1: like I'm five years in now, and I was talking
Speaker 1: about how I was like holding onto clothes that I
Speaker 1: was hoping I would fit into, and she was like,
Speaker 1: five years later, forget it, get rid of those clothes.
Speaker 1: They're not even in style anymore anyway. And it was
Speaker 1: really helpful to hear someone say that if they sort
Speaker 1: of allow you, you know, give you permission to let go. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: to just be like, this is what you look like now,
Speaker 1: and it's fine, just get over it. Well, have you
Speaker 1: gotten rid of any of the clothes? I did? I
Speaker 1: packed like after that literally that weekend, I packed the
Speaker 1: clothes up and I donated them. Wow. Yeah, that's awesome, congratulations,
Speaker 1: thank you. It felt really liberating. I bet um, Well,
Speaker 1: you mentioned parenting media and sort of that that emphasis
Speaker 1: on happy, perfect mom versus bad mom, and there are
Speaker 1: just all sorts of just general commandments that seems like
Speaker 1: in parenting media of how you should raise your child.
Speaker 1: And it seems like the longest Shortest time really makes
Speaker 1: a concerted effort to emphasize more community versus commandment. And
Speaker 1: I was wondering if it's ever tricky to maintain that
Speaker 1: judgment free, accepting tone and atmosphere both in your own
Speaker 1: podcast conversations but also too in the longest shortest time
Speaker 1: listener community interactions. Yeah. So, UM, I think it's just
Speaker 1: human nature to judge and to look at someone and
Speaker 1: be like, I wouldn't do it that way. But I
Speaker 1: also think it's important to remember that, Um, maybe if
Speaker 1: you were that exact person, with their exact experiences and
Speaker 1: their exact children, you might do it their way. So
Speaker 1: so that I tried to remind myself that when I
Speaker 1: started when those thoughts creep up on me. But in
Speaker 1: the podcast, um, there was one of my first guests
Speaker 1: was this woman Kate, who UM she was very adamantly
Speaker 1: no cry with with putting her kid to bed, and
Speaker 1: I had done cry it out and had worked really
Speaker 1: well for me, and UM. I did this interview with
Speaker 1: her where we talked about those two different things, and
Speaker 1: when I listened back to it a couple of years
Speaker 1: after the fact, I was so, I felt so cringe
Speaker 1: e because I felt like I sounded so smug and
Speaker 1: like I was judging her. And I remembered not feeling
Speaker 1: that way at the time, but I feel like I
Speaker 1: sounded that way, and I thought, oh, she must have
Speaker 1: felt so terrible. UM. And so I called her back
Speaker 1: up and brought her back on the podcast and we
Speaker 1: talked about it, UM, and she said she hadn't perceived
Speaker 1: it that way, but I know that other that listeners
Speaker 1: had and UM. So the conversation we wound up having
Speaker 1: was um that she had felt like she because we
Speaker 1: kind of became friends after that first interview, and she
Speaker 1: felt like she could never tell me her birth story
Speaker 1: because hers kind of went well and she felt bad
Speaker 1: sharing it with me. And I was like, no, you know,
Speaker 1: now that you've told me that, now I feel better
Speaker 1: about sharing my triumphs with you, like we each had
Speaker 1: a triumph and it was different, UM, just like we
Speaker 1: each had different struggles and it was like a nice,
Speaker 1: really nice bonding moment UM. So it was sort of
Speaker 1: a way of using that judge stuff uh as as
Speaker 1: to our advantage. UM. And then you know, we have
Speaker 1: two official Facebook groups UM. The Mama's Group is a
Speaker 1: twelve thousand strong now and the Papa's Group, I think
Speaker 1: is about a thousand, and then listeners have generated over
Speaker 1: eighty subgroups because they like the non judge tone of
Speaker 1: the show and they want to use it to talk
Speaker 1: about specific topics UM. And for a really long time
Speaker 1: we are rules in the group are uh no soliciting
Speaker 1: and no UM personal attacks, and we have no tolerance
Speaker 1: for either one. And for a while we just didn't
Speaker 1: even have to address any of it. And then maybe
Speaker 1: like six months into having the group, UM, it started
Speaker 1: growing really quickly because the podcast started getting more popular,
Speaker 1: and every time the show gets featured somewhere else, it's
Speaker 1: great for the show, it's great for for the longevity
Speaker 1: of the show UM, and new people come in who
Speaker 1: are not at all used to this non judgy tone
Speaker 1: that we have and they're used to their other Facebook
Speaker 1: groups where they do attack each other, and so they
Speaker 1: come in and they started they start start up with
Speaker 1: people and um. The thing that I've found is that
Speaker 1: the group members are so protective of this tone that, um,
Speaker 1: it's pretty self regulating. They say, you know, this isn't allowed,
Speaker 1: and generally, um, the person, the offending person will remove
Speaker 1: themselves because then they start feeling attacked. Um Or if
Speaker 1: it doesn't resolve that way, then you know, we remove them.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't happen too much. Yeah, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: and it's great to hear when audiences sort of do
Speaker 1: do your work for you in the sense of protecting
Speaker 1: the sacred space that that you've created. Um. So, some
Speaker 1: of my friends honestly think it's a little odd that
Speaker 1: I listened to the longest shortest time because they asked
Speaker 1: me what it's about, and I'm like, well, it's about parenting,
Speaker 1: and they're like, well, that's weird. You don't have kids.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, it's parenting, but it's about it's really
Speaker 1: just about people and growing up. And that got me
Speaker 1: thinking about this tendency, especially the older I get to
Speaker 1: divide the adult world and especially women into parents, non parents,
Speaker 1: mothers versus non mothers. And I was just wondering, kind
Speaker 1: of what you think about that, of whether I don't know,
Speaker 1: whether we sometimes or maybe cloistering ourselves too much based
Speaker 1: on our child free by choice or proud mom kind
Speaker 1: of identities. Yeah, I mean, I think, first of all,
Speaker 1: I want to say that, Um, I think of the
Speaker 1: show as like, the parenting stuff is just a launching
Speaker 1: point to talk about a whole bunch of other things,
Speaker 1: you know, to talk about the big human stuff, the relationships,
Speaker 1: the sex, the work, the death. We cover all of
Speaker 1: that stuff and the only requirement is that there has
Speaker 1: to be a family relationship in there. And I don't
Speaker 1: know why we get this a lot Like my my
Speaker 1: producer is not a mother, um, and she's in her
Speaker 1: early thirties, and she says that she goes to parties
Speaker 1: and people will come up and like whisper to her
Speaker 1: like I actually like the podcast you work on, And
Speaker 1: she's like, why is that a secret? You know? Like, um,
Speaker 1: why is it weird that you would like to listen
Speaker 1: to stuff about family relationships? We all have families in
Speaker 1: one way or another. Anyway that said, I think it's
Speaker 1: really it's it's interesting like that we get divided in
Speaker 1: this way. And I think, um, you know, female bonds
Speaker 1: tend to be really really strong, um between friends, and
Speaker 1: when one person has a baby and the other one doesn't,
Speaker 1: or their timing is different, um, it can really throw
Speaker 1: a wrench in the relationship because people feel like they
Speaker 1: don't get each other that well. UM. And I think
Speaker 1: like it does put your life in a in a
Speaker 1: different place, um, especially in the very beginning when you
Speaker 1: know you're not sleeping at all. But I've also I
Speaker 1: think it doesn't have to be a complete end to
Speaker 1: the relationship. I don't think you have to be divided
Speaker 1: by I'm only friends with other moms and my former
Speaker 1: friends who who my friends who didn't have kids, like
Speaker 1: kept their nonparent friends like. I think there are ways,
Speaker 1: there are new ways to find of being adult friends
Speaker 1: and and you have to be creative. And I do
Speaker 1: think that a lot of the conversations we have on
Speaker 1: the podcast, people have said to me who don't have children, like,
Speaker 1: you're making me understand my friends lives so much more
Speaker 1: and empathize so much more. And now I feel like
Speaker 1: I can be friends with them. We had UM. This
Speaker 1: one woman, Rachel Garcia, she's a musician UM in California,
Speaker 1: and she and her partner, UM don't plan to have children.
Speaker 1: And she always sort of was she and her partner
Speaker 1: were like weirded out by their friends who started having kids.
Speaker 1: And then she started listening to the show and she
Speaker 1: felt like she got it so much that they released
Speaker 1: their debut album and one of the songs was a
Speaker 1: lullaby she wrote for her friend's baby, UM because of
Speaker 1: what she learned on the podcast. And so, UM, I
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't think it has to be so divisive. Well,
Speaker 1: what would you recommend then to to say someone in
Speaker 1: my situation without kids who's girlfriends are starting to have
Speaker 1: kids in terms of maintaining that relationship and and not,
Speaker 1: like you said, allowing it to sort of drive a
Speaker 1: wedge between you. I would say, UM, joon't take it
Speaker 1: personally that they don't have as much time for you anymore.
Speaker 1: It's not because they don't want to, it's because they can't.
Speaker 1: And UM, if they're expressing interest in maintaining the friendship,
Speaker 1: see if you can cater to them, UM, at least
Speaker 1: in that first year or two, UM, offer to come
Speaker 1: over and bring dinner or come over and cook with them,
Speaker 1: or you know, bring the wine and stay late after
Speaker 1: the baby goes to bed. Like my husband and I
Speaker 1: have this thing we do where we live in New
Speaker 1: Jersey and we have our friends come out to New
Speaker 1: Jersey from New York and spend the weekend and do
Speaker 1: like a grown up sleepover. And you know, my kid
Speaker 1: goes to bed at eight and then we stay up
Speaker 1: in party and it's the best. So that that that's
Speaker 1: my recommendation. And then and they'll come around if you
Speaker 1: keep that up. That that's going to mean a lot
Speaker 1: to them if you do that, and once they're able
Speaker 1: to like have more of a life that resembles what
Speaker 1: they used to, then they'll be coming back to you. Well,
Speaker 1: and who could turn down an invitation to a grown
Speaker 1: up sleepover? That sounds yeah. Well, you mentioned the Papa's
Speaker 1: group on the longest shortst Time Facebook page, um, and
Speaker 1: it reminds me of how we have heard from so
Speaker 1: so many gentlemen in our stuff I'm gonna or told
Speaker 1: you stent asking for well what about stuff Dad never
Speaker 1: told you? And so I'm wondering, you know, when it
Speaker 1: comes to these conversations about um parenting and family dynamics.
Speaker 1: Do you think that men and dads need more attention?
Speaker 1: Perhaps that's really funny, I UM. I asked my husband
Speaker 1: this question on the train on the way in to
Speaker 1: the city this morning, and he just looked at me
Speaker 1: and very flatly said no. And I said why not?
Speaker 1: And he was like, because if there's stuff I want
Speaker 1: to know about parenting, I just go to look at
Speaker 1: general parenting stuff. I don't need stuff for dad's. Um.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's how everyone feels, but I
Speaker 1: do think, UM, that there's definitely more of an urgency
Speaker 1: that I see from women feeling like the stuff that
Speaker 1: they're dealing with really needs attention. The dad's, I think
Speaker 1: need more need bonding with each other. And when you phreeze,
Speaker 1: it as like stuff dad never told you. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, God, this stuff that dads don't tell their kids,
Speaker 1: there's so much right But UM, so maybe there's maybe
Speaker 1: there's more stuff that kids need from their dad's. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know, um, how much of a
Speaker 1: demand there is for dads to be catered to in
Speaker 1: parenting media though. Well, speaking of dads, and we just
Speaker 1: did a podcast on this so I have to ask you, um,
Speaker 1: do you have any thoughts on dad bods. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think I just think that they're that again, it's
Speaker 1: like there's not as much pressure on dad's to look
Speaker 1: a certain way, you know. Well, and especially after listening
Speaker 1: to this past week, I was I was binge listening
Speaker 1: to a number of old podcast episodes and after listening
Speaker 1: to one on sex after childbirth and thinking about the
Speaker 1: idea of of mom body and how just the entire
Speaker 1: thing is so much different and far more complex than
Speaker 1: this presentation of what a dad bought is. Um, it
Speaker 1: was it was thought provoking, I'll say that. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: mean it's like it's like letting yourself go versus like
Speaker 1: stuff that was done to you, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: a complete transformation in a way. Yeah, And I don't
Speaker 1: I don't want to like be little dads and what
Speaker 1: they go through. They go through a lot um. But
Speaker 1: I'm just saying I just feel a lot more urgency
Speaker 1: from moms. Well, since this is stuff mom never told you,
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask whether there is a stuff Mom
Speaker 1: never told you? Um, just something just something generally that
Speaker 1: you especially want to ensure that you do tell your daughter, Sasha. Yeah. UM,
Speaker 1: so my mom was was pretty um open with me
Speaker 1: about the stuff that maybe other moms aren't open about,
Speaker 1: like uh, body stuff and sex stuff and whatever tending
Speaker 1: to your mental health needs. UM. But she grew up
Speaker 1: in a time where gender roles were a lot more
Speaker 1: um traditional, and so like she and my dad got
Speaker 1: married right out of college and um, so she never
Speaker 1: lived on her own and never had to really become
Speaker 1: economically educated. And UM, I did live on my own,
Speaker 1: and I needed to figure that stuff out on my own.
Speaker 1: And so I would want to pass that information onto
Speaker 1: my daughter. UM. And I also would want her to
Speaker 1: know that if she winds up in a relationship with
Speaker 1: a man, that men do right thank you notes. So
Speaker 1: my mom, in her traditional ways, UM, places a lot
Speaker 1: of importance on thank you notes and um like when
Speaker 1: I got married and when I had a baby, UM,
Speaker 1: she was kind of stunned by the fact that my
Speaker 1: husband split the thank you note writing with me. UM.
Speaker 1: And so I would want my daughter to know that, yes,
Speaker 1: you can expect your partner to write thank you notes
Speaker 1: to egalitarian thank you notes. I love it. I have
Speaker 1: a wedding coming up next year, so I will remember that, Hillary, Well, say,
Speaker 1: now when it when it comes to the longest shortest
Speaker 1: time catalog and all of the different things, the different
Speaker 1: people that you've talked about, and the experiences that people
Speaker 1: have shared, is there one that stands out in your
Speaker 1: mind that has really made a resounding impression on you?
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Recently, UM, I talked to this woman, Melinda.
Speaker 1: She is African American and UM had struggled with anxiety
Speaker 1: her entire life and she uh and then when she
Speaker 1: became pregnant, her anxiety kind of like became debilitating. But
Speaker 1: she felt like she couldn't talk about it because in
Speaker 1: her community. UM, there's a real stigma to talking about
Speaker 1: mental health issues. UM. And I just thought she was
Speaker 1: so brave to come out and talk about it. UM.
Speaker 1: And it really really resonated with people of all different cultures.
Speaker 1: And it was really amazing to see how her telling
Speaker 1: her story could could just make other people feel what
Speaker 1: I what I wanted to feel when I first started
Speaker 1: the podcast, which was not alone. UM. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: think I think that one this has been sticking with me. Well,
Speaker 1: it's interesting you mentioned that one because I also just
Speaker 1: listen to that and it had a huge impact on
Speaker 1: me as well because her story, I mean, it made
Speaker 1: me think about all of my fears about the possibility
Speaker 1: of if I become pregnant, if I become a mother,
Speaker 1: and how like my anxiety will interact with that. And
Speaker 1: I was sobbing on and off like listening to it,
Speaker 1: and was just so grateful too to hear her story
Speaker 1: and for it to be told so honestly as well.
Speaker 1: So so thank you for sharing that too. Thanks, thanks
Speaker 1: so uh well for listeners who want to know where
Speaker 1: they can go to learn more about you in the
Speaker 1: longest shortest time and also about your offline events because
Speaker 1: it is not just a podcast, you do meet ups
Speaker 1: in person. UM. Where can they go to find all
Speaker 1: that information? Yeah, so they should go to the Longest
Speaker 1: Shortest Time dot com UM. And we take stories from listeners.
Speaker 1: We take UM stories from parents about their relationships with
Speaker 1: their kids, and we also take stories from kids and
Speaker 1: grown kids about their parents UM. And we also we
Speaker 1: have an app that that you can find on our
Speaker 1: website UM where you can record answers to our questions
Speaker 1: really easily and your voice can wind up on our show.
Speaker 1: And we also do these events that we call speed
Speaker 1: dating for Mom Friends, which is so that moms can
Speaker 1: meet each other. It's a it's a non judge environment
Speaker 1: and um, it's really fun. People come. And we made
Speaker 1: a signature cocktail for the last one called Sex on
Speaker 1: the living Room Floor, and um, we could sort of
Speaker 1: take the guesswork out of making mom friends. Fantastic. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm curious though, what was in what goes into Sex
Speaker 1: on the living Room Floor. It's vodka and club soda
Speaker 1: with fresh orange juice and grapefruit juice. And to top
Speaker 1: it all off, there was there was a lemon wheel.
Speaker 1: But also, um, a sexy lady like a like a
Speaker 1: naked sexy lady. Stir well, that's that's very refreshing. Well,
Speaker 1: thanks so much to Hillary Frank for coming on and
Speaker 1: speaking with Kristen and enlightening all of us about parenthood
Speaker 1: the nitty gritty, like Kristen said, and basically filling us
Speaker 1: in on how she got to where she is. And
Speaker 1: if you want to learn more about Hillary Frank and
Speaker 1: the books she's written, the radio she's produced, the podcast
Speaker 1: and also public speaking that she does, head on over
Speaker 1: to her website, Hillary Frank dot com and for more
Speaker 1: info and more import and lead to listen to the
Speaker 1: Longest Shortest Time. You can head to Longest Shortest Time
Speaker 1: dot com and we'll have links to all of this
Speaker 1: stuff and also some of my favorite Longest Shortest Time
Speaker 1: episodes on this podcast post over at Stuff Mom Never
Speaker 1: Told You dot com. So again, huge thanks to Hillary
Speaker 1: for taking the time to chat with us today and
Speaker 1: kick off our podcast Summer Camp Summer Serious Spectacular Swizzler.
Speaker 1: I don't think what is that the actual name of it? Well, no,
Speaker 1: that's the name of the themed restaurant that you and
Speaker 1: I are going to open. Yes, yeah, so podcasts buffet
Speaker 1: all you can eat so great, please guard and all
Speaker 1: deep fried earbuds love it. Well. Now, we're curious to
Speaker 1: hear from listeners about your parenting stories. Do you feel
Speaker 1: like a lot of times parenting advice glosses over what
Speaker 1: it's really like to make that transition into parenthood um,
Speaker 1: and also if you have any tips on bridging that
Speaker 1: parent non parent divide as well, we'd love to hear
Speaker 1: from you. We always love your stories. Mom Stuff at
Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com is our email address. You
Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages
Speaker 1: on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages to
Speaker 1: share with you right now. Well, I have a letter
Speaker 1: here from Michelle about our sci Fi Summer Reading episode.
Speaker 1: She says, I love your discussion about women in sci
Speaker 1: fi books. I'm a writer myself, and I gained my
Speaker 1: love for reading sci fi and fantasy from my mother.
Speaker 1: I was so excited to hear some of my favorites mentioned,
Speaker 1: and I've learned some new names. I wanted to share
Speaker 1: another author with you and your listeners. Mercedes Lackey is
Speaker 1: an amazing fantasy writer, and her Harold Mage series is
Speaker 1: where I first encountered a same sex relationship. I think
Speaker 1: the book was Magics Pawn and I was in high school.
Speaker 1: It made me pause when I came across it, but
Speaker 1: I recalled that the relationship was handled in a very
Speaker 1: matter of fact way. The more I read it, the
Speaker 1: more normal quote unquote it seemed to me her writing
Speaker 1: opened my mind to something I had never encountered before
Speaker 1: and helped to set me up for acceptance. Sci Fi
Speaker 1: and fantasy are definitely a great arena to explore the
Speaker 1: unfamiliar in a way that feels safe. I love you both,
Speaker 1: keep up the great conversations. So thanks Michelle, So I've
Speaker 1: got a letter here from Amanda on our Judy Bloom
Speaker 1: summer reading episode. Because one summer reading episode was just
Speaker 1: not enough this summer. So Amanda wrote, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for the Judy Bloom episode for me. The timing
Speaker 1: couldn't have been better. Just last week, I decided I
Speaker 1: wanted to read some of j blues older books. After
Speaker 1: learning that there weren't any copies of India Unlikely event
Speaker 1: currently available at my local library, I decided to read
Speaker 1: Forever and Aly loved it. Two days later, I went
Speaker 1: back to the library and checked out Wifey. I'm twenty
Speaker 1: six years old and this was my first time reading
Speaker 1: either book. I'm not sure why, but I never really
Speaker 1: got into Judy Blue when I was a kid. I
Speaker 1: went to a Catholic grade school and my parents were
Speaker 1: pretty conservative, so I think I was just never exposed
Speaker 1: to some of her more mature books. I was struck
Speaker 1: by how progressive and relevant Forever seemed, despite being written
Speaker 1: forty years ago. I just loved the message that people
Speaker 1: fall in love, have sex, breakup, and move on and
Speaker 1: that's okay. It's such an ordinary story, but one that
Speaker 1: would have been so helpful for me to read as
Speaker 1: a teenager. I hope I can share it with my
Speaker 1: future children some day. I enjoyed Wifey even more. Kristen,
Speaker 1: I too love a good oppressed housewives story, so this
Speaker 1: was right up my alley. I would love to hear
Speaker 1: what you think of it when you read it. I
Speaker 1: think I read this book at the exact right time
Speaker 1: of my life. I'm not sure if I would have
Speaker 1: appreciated it as a teenager or even as a younger adult.
Speaker 1: As a young married lady, I found it totally fascinating.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to get my hands on more. J Blue,
Speaker 1: and thank you Amanda for your letter and everybody else
Speaker 1: who's written into us. Mom Stuff at how stuff works
Speaker 1: dot com is our email address and for links to
Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as all of
Speaker 1: our blogs, videos, and podcast with this one with links
Speaker 1: to the longest shortest time so you can give it
Speaker 1: a listen and fall in love with it like I have.
Speaker 1: Head on over to stuff mom Never Told You dot
Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics.
Speaker 1: Doesn't how stuff Works dot com