Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You From how Supports
Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline
Speaker 1: and I'm Kristin, and today we want to share with
Speaker 1: you an interview with Lorie L. Tharpes, who's an assistant
Speaker 1: professor of journalism at Temple University. She's also an award
Speaker 1: winning author, freelance journalist, and the speaker. And this is
Speaker 1: somewhat of an addendum to the podcast that we did
Speaker 1: a little while back, a fan favorite already all about
Speaker 1: curly hair, and while we talked about black hair in
Speaker 1: that podcast, we mentioned that there was so much that
Speaker 1: we could talk about that we wanted to come back
Speaker 1: and do an entire episode on that. And this is
Speaker 1: that episode because Lori L. Tharpes, along with Iana Bird,
Speaker 1: literally wrote the book on black hair in America. H right.
Speaker 1: It's called Hair Story, Untangling the Roots of Black Hair
Speaker 1: in America, and it was originally published back in two
Speaker 1: thousand two and reprinted in January of this year. And
Speaker 1: we wanted to hear from an expert on the topic.
Speaker 1: So without further ado, let's bring you the interview with
Speaker 1: Lorie Tharp's. Could you just first introduce who you are?
Speaker 1: And how you and co author Ayanna Dee Bird decided
Speaker 1: to write in an update hair story untangling the roots
Speaker 1: of black hair in America. Sure, my, I guess I
Speaker 1: described myself as an author, professor, writer, and mom. Um,
Speaker 1: all of those Um, all those descriptions really um define me.
Speaker 1: And I you know, I wouldn't be a writer if
Speaker 1: I wasn't a mother, I wouldn't be a professor if
Speaker 1: I wanted a writer. UM, I feel like everything I
Speaker 1: do is really intertwined with who I am as an individual.
Speaker 1: Will so like my my professional world really does reflect
Speaker 1: my passions and my interests and UM as a writer,
Speaker 1: that's true. Also so when I was actually in graduate school,
Speaker 1: I went to Columbia University's Graduate School of Journalism, and
Speaker 1: the kind of highlight of the program is choosing a
Speaker 1: topic that you will report on for an entire year
Speaker 1: for your master's thesis. And UM, the professor's always made
Speaker 1: it clear that you better choose a topic that um
Speaker 1: will keep you interested for a year, you know, because
Speaker 1: there's nothing worse than having to report on something that
Speaker 1: doesn't interest you or bores you after a while. So
Speaker 1: it took me a while, but I eventually decided that
Speaker 1: I wanted to write about black hair because it just
Speaker 1: seemed to me that there was something very different about
Speaker 1: black hair in the United States when compared with you know,
Speaker 1: white people's hair, if you will. It seemed that, UM,
Speaker 1: black hair was always making people um, making non black
Speaker 1: people you know, ask questions or or you know, have
Speaker 1: strange ideas about it, like they didn't understand black hair. Um.
Speaker 1: Within the black community, there were so many kind of
Speaker 1: superstitions and beliefs and almost conversations that were constant about
Speaker 1: our hair that I thought that there had to be
Speaker 1: more to it than just something cosmetic. And um, I
Speaker 1: that's what I decided to do. And my professor at
Speaker 1: the time at Columbia was very skeptical that there was
Speaker 1: something to say about black hair beyond, you know, a
Speaker 1: personal essay, and she warmed me repeatedly that I was
Speaker 1: going to fail if I chose that as a topic.
Speaker 1: But when I actually handed my paper in at the
Speaker 1: end of the year, not only did um she changed
Speaker 1: her mind, but she actually invited me over to her
Speaker 1: home and said that she you know, apologized and said
Speaker 1: she was just overwhelmed with how how deep and complex
Speaker 1: and interesting black hair really was, and that she not
Speaker 1: only thought that herself, but she photocopied might work and
Speaker 1: gave it to a friend who was about to It
Speaker 1: was a white end who was about to adopt a
Speaker 1: black child, so because she thought that she needed to
Speaker 1: know this information. And then she told me, you know,
Speaker 1: you should turn us into a book. And at the time,
Speaker 1: you know, just as a recent graduate student, I thought
Speaker 1: a book, what, that's crazy, overwhelming. I just want to
Speaker 1: find a job and move on with my life. But
Speaker 1: as it turned out, when I my first job was
Speaker 1: at five magazine, and I sat next to thee on
Speaker 1: the bird and she had done a similar topic as
Speaker 1: an undergraduate um for her honors thesis. She too had
Speaker 1: written about black hair. She too had had a professor
Speaker 1: who doubted that she could write anything more than a
Speaker 1: personal essay, who then at the end, when she handed
Speaker 1: it in um, he was also encouraged her to turn
Speaker 1: it into a book. And so here we were sitting
Speaker 1: next to each other when the person who hired us
Speaker 1: both said, did you know you both have this weird
Speaker 1: fascination with black hair? And so that led us to talking.
Speaker 1: One thing led to another, and we said, let's write
Speaker 1: a book. Together. UM, let's combine our two projects. My
Speaker 1: project had looked at the history, um politics, and business
Speaker 1: of black hair, and she had looked more at the
Speaker 1: sociological aspects of black hair in popular culture. And so
Speaker 1: that's what we did, is we took our you know,
Speaker 1: our two interests and you know, dove even deeper into
Speaker 1: the topic and came up with Hair Story in two
Speaker 1: thousand one. And then, um, you know, both of us
Speaker 1: were magazine writers and that we were at the beginning
Speaker 1: of our career when the book first came out. And then,
Speaker 1: you know, twelve years later, we decided to update the
Speaker 1: book simply because everything that goes on in American popular
Speaker 1: culture as it relates to black hair is so fascinating
Speaker 1: and more and more UM issues were coming up every
Speaker 1: day where we felt people were still wanting us to
Speaker 1: talk about the book, but we had to keep adding
Speaker 1: information because um new things were happening. And the most,
Speaker 1: the most um prevalent thing, the biggest change in the
Speaker 1: world of black hair was the Internet. The Internet changed
Speaker 1: the entire black hair game. UM just as it changed
Speaker 1: popular culture, it really had a significant an impact and
Speaker 1: how black women around the world could interact with one another,
Speaker 1: finally about the haircare regimens as well as product style,
Speaker 1: and just this kind of community was built that never
Speaker 1: existed before. And the from a financial standpoint, you had
Speaker 1: a lot of black women entrepreneurs who were able to
Speaker 1: launch products because they could distribute them via the Internet.
Speaker 1: Whereas before they could maybe you know, give them to
Speaker 1: a few friends or sell them at a flea market.
Speaker 1: Now they could be international distributors, with the Internet now
Speaker 1: allowing them access to, you know, a worldwide audience. So
Speaker 1: that's why we decided to update the book in two thousand. Um.
Speaker 1: It actually came out in two thousand fourteen. Um. We
Speaker 1: decided to update it because so much had happened and
Speaker 1: people now say, you know what, what's next. We figure
Speaker 1: in another decade, we'll probably have to update it again because, um,
Speaker 1: whether we're talking the business of black hair or the social, social,
Speaker 1: socio political aspect of black hair, and not just American
Speaker 1: popular culture, but now and internationally, things keep happening. So
Speaker 1: we just keep writing, Well, it seems like there is
Speaker 1: a tendency in white society kind of going back to
Speaker 1: the story you're telling about your professor and just sort
Speaker 1: of her eyes being open to how much there is
Speaker 1: to talk about when it comes to black hair. It
Speaker 1: seems like there's a tendency to talk about African hair
Speaker 1: black hair in monolithic terms, as if it all has
Speaker 1: the exact same texture, appearance, preferred styling. And I was
Speaker 1: just wondering if you could talk about how it's quite
Speaker 1: the opposite in reality, going back for centuries in Africa,
Speaker 1: it was actually the differences among people's hair that's been
Speaker 1: part of what you called a complex language system in
Speaker 1: the book. Yes, Um, it's interesting because um as we are,
Speaker 1: you know, firmly into the twenty one century in the
Speaker 1: business world of black hair talking about salon owners, stylists, UM,
Speaker 1: hair care man, you know, manufacturers, that the word that
Speaker 1: they are now using, it's kind of I mean, the
Speaker 1: buzzword now is to talk about textures of hair is
Speaker 1: as opposed to race hair. Racially talking about hair, um,
Speaker 1: it almost sounds I mean when you talk about it clinically,
Speaker 1: it almost sounds silly to say black hair products because
Speaker 1: every black person doesn't have the same kind of hair,
Speaker 1: just like every white person doesn't have the same kind
Speaker 1: of hair. UM. And it used to be unfortunately, like
Speaker 1: if you went to the you know, the drug store,
Speaker 1: the target wherever, and you looked at the hair shampoo aisles,
Speaker 1: of course you would find rows and rows of you know,
Speaker 1: shampoo for color, treated hair, for limp, fine hair, for
Speaker 1: dry hair. I mean, white people had an array of
Speaker 1: options to find the product that was really meant for
Speaker 1: their hair volume izing products, you know, all different types.
Speaker 1: And yet then there was black hair products, as if
Speaker 1: there was one type of black hair. Um we quoted
Speaker 1: talked to you, um Anthony Dicky, who is a celebrity
Speaker 1: stylist who now has his own range of products called
Speaker 1: hair Rules, and he likened it to make up, which
Speaker 1: he's like, it's funny because obviously there are multiple shades
Speaker 1: of makeup because everybody comes in different shades of skin.
Speaker 1: There isn't one white um foundation, right, There's multiple variations.
Speaker 1: And he's like, people should think of hair in the
Speaker 1: same way that there are multiple variations of hair types,
Speaker 1: whether that's in the white community or the black community.
Speaker 1: Black hair isn't all the same, especially when you think
Speaker 1: about the origins of Black Americans. Most Black Americans have
Speaker 1: I mean they are you know, everybody has African blood
Speaker 1: in them, but they have various different um ratios of
Speaker 1: white blood in them also as well as Native American
Speaker 1: and so the idea that their hair is all gonna
Speaker 1: be the same is preposterous. Um. And again it's just
Speaker 1: like eight Americans as well. There's just not one single
Speaker 1: type of black hair. So, um, all black hair doesn't
Speaker 1: look the same, just like all black people don't look
Speaker 1: the same. And that's you know, it's kind of just
Speaker 1: a biological fact that people seem to forget because the
Speaker 1: concept of race is an invented concept, so it doesn't
Speaker 1: really hold true when you talk about black hair because
Speaker 1: Black people are such a diverse people biologically. Well. One
Speaker 1: thing that jumped out to me in the book as well,
Speaker 1: because we did a podcast a few months back now
Speaker 1: on the history of hair salons and beauty parlors in
Speaker 1: the US, And one thing that you noted earlier in
Speaker 1: the book is that the hairdresser always held a special
Speaker 1: place in community life, and that was in reference to
Speaker 1: um hairdressers actually in Africa centrac Ago. And so I
Speaker 1: was wondering if the hairdresser continues to hold a special
Speaker 1: place in black community life today in the US, and
Speaker 1: if so, how The short answer is absolutely absolutely. And
Speaker 1: you know, and one of the things that we wanted
Speaker 1: to why. You know, people always ask us, well, did
Speaker 1: you write this book for black people or did you
Speaker 1: write this book for white people? And it's clearly a
Speaker 1: book for all people, because um, you'll, I mean, some
Speaker 1: of the things that we wanted to emphasize is how much,
Speaker 1: how familiar, and how similar some of the things that
Speaker 1: you know, the black, black hair, black American hair culture
Speaker 1: has with any other culture in that um, you know,
Speaker 1: your your salon, your style list is almost like a
Speaker 1: can almost be like a part of your family or
Speaker 1: the family doctor. I remember, you know, years ago, there
Speaker 1: was an OPRAH episode dedicated to how to break up
Speaker 1: with your stylists because it was such a traumatic thing
Speaker 1: to do because that relationship was so strong, and that
Speaker 1: wasn't just for black people. But the reason, I mean,
Speaker 1: and this is where the you know, that's the similar
Speaker 1: is that I think most women who have a permanent
Speaker 1: stylists have a very special relationship with that person, but
Speaker 1: within the black community. And and you're absolutely right, and
Speaker 1: that's you know, one of the things. We also tried
Speaker 1: to establish the connections from African traditions in you know,
Speaker 1: from the fifteenth century and beyond. Um, that carry on
Speaker 1: through today and absolutely that you know, historically, in African
Speaker 1: cultures West African cultures where most African Americans trace their history,
Speaker 1: every community UM had their own designated hairdresser and that
Speaker 1: person was a very highly like valued in UM, not worshiped,
Speaker 1: but UM highly regarded person of the community. So you
Speaker 1: didn't just let anybody touch your hair. You only let
Speaker 1: the designated hairdresser touch your hair. And usually that was
Speaker 1: a position that was passed down, So a mother would
Speaker 1: pass that roll down to her daughter and we teach
Speaker 1: her all of the things she needed to know about
Speaker 1: her about the crap the hairstyling. And it wasn't because
Speaker 1: they were just combing and washing hair. I mean, if
Speaker 1: you know anything or saw any uh hairstyles in traditional
Speaker 1: African societies, they were very elaborate. They meant a lot.
Speaker 1: A person's hairstyles said everything about them, meaning it would
Speaker 1: tell you what family you would belong to, what place
Speaker 1: in society you had, whether you were married not married,
Speaker 1: whether you were going to war, whether you were in mourning.
Speaker 1: So a person who was designated hairstyles had to know
Speaker 1: all of these styles for their particular community that they
Speaker 1: were catering. To so today um and also because black
Speaker 1: hair genuinely takes more time to um style to manage,
Speaker 1: then I would say I'd say average, like I would
Speaker 1: say white hair styles in general, not I mean, there's
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's some very elaborate white hairstyles, but in general,
Speaker 1: it takes time, i mean sometimes even days. So historically
Speaker 1: that was a time when women would, you know, cultivate
Speaker 1: friendships was during hairtime, you know, when hairstyles were being done,
Speaker 1: and even today, because a black woman who's going to
Speaker 1: go into the salon nine times out of ten, she's
Speaker 1: gonna be in there for more than thirty four or
Speaker 1: five minutes. She could be there two hours, and depending
Speaker 1: on the the style she's getting, she could be in
Speaker 1: there four or five, six, seven times even eight hours.
Speaker 1: So one just spending that much time with anybody, you
Speaker 1: would hope you could have something to talk about. But
Speaker 1: also there is this still this very strong sense of
Speaker 1: community building happening within the um beauty salons and barbershops
Speaker 1: as well. But the other thing that happens in the
Speaker 1: black beauty parlors traditionally is not just talking about hair
Speaker 1: or women's issues, but it's also been a place where
Speaker 1: um revolutionary activity would happen, where people would talk about
Speaker 1: civil rights UM issues, where people would plan for to
Speaker 1: do um any kinds of like community justice work. UM.
Speaker 1: A lot of times um it interesting things were happening
Speaker 1: and planned in the beauty salon because they were considered
Speaker 1: safe spaces almost like churches and um pull up public
Speaker 1: authority figures, police or whoever else wouldn't go into the
Speaker 1: beauty parlor because one, they would discount women as actually
Speaker 1: able to plot any kind of act you know, revolutionary activity.
Speaker 1: But too because it seemed like a a you know,
Speaker 1: something dedicated to beauty, so you wouldn't be talking about
Speaker 1: anything of significance. So the beauty parlor has always been
Speaker 1: this kind of safe, sacred space for black women to Again,
Speaker 1: you're gonna spend a lot of time there, you're gonna
Speaker 1: put a lot of trust in the woman who's who
Speaker 1: is tasked with doing your hair. But also it's been
Speaker 1: this kind of buffer zone from the outside world where
Speaker 1: black women can part of the pun but let their
Speaker 1: hair down and be themselves. Well, and it seems like
Speaker 1: too as long as women need to get their hair done,
Speaker 1: which will be forever, let's then that place in the
Speaker 1: community will always be there, which is kind of incredible
Speaker 1: to think about. Yeah, absolutely, I mean there there's you know,
Speaker 1: because we look at hair from all different angles. We
Speaker 1: also look at the financial aspects the economy of the
Speaker 1: black hair care industry, and that is one area literally
Speaker 1: since ante bellum times, before slavery, black people have been
Speaker 1: very successful in UM, in the salon and barbershop industry UM,
Speaker 1: and that industry has been you know, even during UH
Speaker 1: when slavery was still in effect, many black men were barbers,
Speaker 1: and but they were UM treating, they were servicing white people,
Speaker 1: not Black people, and became very successful and then turned
Speaker 1: around and used that money though to uplift the black community,
Speaker 1: to buy their family members out of slavery, to create
Speaker 1: schools and UM community organizations for black uplift, so that
Speaker 1: that UM trend continued, you know, even post slavery and
Speaker 1: when the black barbers were actually servicing black clients and
Speaker 1: salant owners as well. So today, when we have things
Speaker 1: that seem wonderful like blow dry bars and brain bars
Speaker 1: and um others UM you know, quick, fast and easy,
Speaker 1: just too many people, that's great because everybody you know
Speaker 1: who has enough, who has time, to spend three hours
Speaker 1: in the beauty beauty parlor. But on the other hand,
Speaker 1: it's kind of you know, you'll see some black people
Speaker 1: become very um, defensive or alarmed by the kind of
Speaker 1: fast paced way that is taking over the salon business
Speaker 1: because historically this has been not just a place to
Speaker 1: get your hair done, but it's been a community center.
Speaker 1: So that is definitely something that UM is is of
Speaker 1: concern in the black community. Is what happens if the
Speaker 1: the you know, the thirty minute or the blow dry
Speaker 1: bar or the braid bar you know, starts in and
Speaker 1: to take over the the kind of community salon that
Speaker 1: you know has been part of the community for years. Well,
Speaker 1: if we go back, UM in US history to the
Speaker 1: era of slavery, um, one thing that you talked about
Speaker 1: in the book is how white slave owning Americans used
Speaker 1: African hair as a justification for slavery, which I think
Speaker 1: is something that a lot of people don't realize. And
Speaker 1: I'm just starting if you could talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, So again it's in our twenty one
Speaker 1: century ears and eyes. It just seems like it seems
Speaker 1: like crazy to think about this, like to think that
Speaker 1: this was something that could be done, but you see
Speaker 1: the results today in that um you know, one of
Speaker 1: the most important ways to make sure you kept the
Speaker 1: population of people enslaved, not just physically but mentally so
Speaker 1: that they would think of themselves as inferior, so that
Speaker 1: they would have less less chances of um rebelling if
Speaker 1: you will, which you know didn't really work completely, but
Speaker 1: it kept you know, a large amount of people feeling
Speaker 1: themselves inferior, which by um insinuating and actually legally declaring
Speaker 1: the African race to be inferior. And the way they
Speaker 1: did that was to um assign you know, the physical
Speaker 1: the attributes that made Africans different from white people, for example,
Speaker 1: their hair, were to label them as more like animalistic
Speaker 1: than human. So the hair, you know, black hair wasn't
Speaker 1: referred to as hair. It was referred to as wool
Speaker 1: or for or animal like, such that Black people began
Speaker 1: to really believe that there was something inherently inferior or
Speaker 1: wrong with their natural hair, you know, the hair that
Speaker 1: grew out of their heads. So from a very early
Speaker 1: point in their arrival in the America's and the Caribbean
Speaker 1: was to try to alter their hair because it was
Speaker 1: constantly referred to as not just inferior, but ugly and animalistic,
Speaker 1: so frarier. Very early on in um plantation life, you
Speaker 1: saw all kinds of ingenious ways to try to straighten
Speaker 1: their hair. If not straighten it, then at least try
Speaker 1: to mimic the white hairstyles, which a lot of people
Speaker 1: were wearing wigs, so even to mimic the wigs that UM,
Speaker 1: and this was both men and women, so that there
Speaker 1: couldn't be this continuous debasing of their individual cells by
Speaker 1: slave owners to um, you know, to cast them as inferior,
Speaker 1: so that kind of they're The African people loved their
Speaker 1: hair and worship their hair and felt their hair to
Speaker 1: be truly a part of their identity before before being
Speaker 1: um kidnapped and enslaved. But as soon as they were
Speaker 1: brought to this country as well as to you know,
Speaker 1: South America, the Caribbean UM again, the hair quickly became
Speaker 1: that thing because it is malleable um that they tried
Speaker 1: to change and make in the image of their European
Speaker 1: captors so that they wouldn't be denigrated in that way.
Speaker 1: Men often shave their heads because it was such a
Speaker 1: sign of blackness that they figured if they got rid
Speaker 1: of it. That was one way to get rid of
Speaker 1: this kind of badge of of inferiority. So that is
Speaker 1: the you know, that is one of the reasons why
Speaker 1: even today we still have work to do to claim
Speaker 1: or reclaim the beauty of our own natural hair, because
Speaker 1: for so long it was deemed inferior, ugly and animalistic.
Speaker 1: I mean, even if it's funny, because even if you
Speaker 1: look at you know, what would be a seemingly innocuous
Speaker 1: description of a black person, you would see, you know,
Speaker 1: they would describe their skin, their face, whatever, like on
Speaker 1: a maybe a slave a fugitive slave poster, or even
Speaker 1: just a description in a you know, a magazine or something,
Speaker 1: and the way white people would write thea and her
Speaker 1: wool was styled this way. I mean it was scientifically,
Speaker 1: even the scientific community was calling it woolf So, I mean,
Speaker 1: it was so endemic into the culture that it would
Speaker 1: be a real testament of mental strength to not fall
Speaker 1: prey to the belief that somehow you were your hair
Speaker 1: was what made you inferior. Well, and it seems like
Speaker 1: one of the earliest manifestations of that internalizing of that
Speaker 1: rampant racism at the time is this designation between good
Speaker 1: hair versus bad hair, and the good hair being you know,
Speaker 1: the straighter, the better. And so I was wondering if
Speaker 1: it seems like the good hair bad hair designations have
Speaker 1: been largely uprooted today from Black culture, or if traces
Speaker 1: of them still remain, if there is still that internalizing
Speaker 1: process going on. I wish that I could say that,
Speaker 1: you know, ten years after the original book came out,
Speaker 1: that good hair bad hair just the thing in the past,
Speaker 1: But unfortunately it's not. It's still very much part of
Speaker 1: the vocabulary, UM and culture in the black community. And
Speaker 1: and in this updated version, we really kind of looked
Speaker 1: beyond the Black American community and we're you know, sad
Speaker 1: to find out that this is you know, we just
Speaker 1: came back from a or what we call our European tour.
Speaker 1: We were in London, London, France, let's say, London, and Holland,
Speaker 1: UM and spoke to people from you know, all over
Speaker 1: the continent, and that good hair bad hair is even
Speaker 1: UM used in other parts of the world as well
Speaker 1: as in UM. Latin America, Paolo Bueno, Palo malo is
Speaker 1: also terms that are still very much in use, and
Speaker 1: UM it really is just I mean, you we thought
Speaker 1: when we went into this that this would be terms
Speaker 1: that were only used by older generations because you know,
Speaker 1: how they grew up. But of course older generations are
Speaker 1: the ones that are bringing up the younger generations, and
Speaker 1: they're still using terms like good hair and bad hair.
Speaker 1: And what we're seeing sometimes where people might stop saying
Speaker 1: good hair bad hair because they know how damaging. And
Speaker 1: we're saying this within the black community, um that you know,
Speaker 1: people will know that's just not could you know, we've
Speaker 1: got to stop. We we have to stop using these
Speaker 1: terms ourselves. But then we're getting euphemisms. You know, a
Speaker 1: lot of people talk about the um designations of it.
Speaker 1: There's these new like terminology to to decide what kind
Speaker 1: of hair you have with these one sees to four seas.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've heard about that, but it's
Speaker 1: a curl pattern designation or and people will talk about
Speaker 1: wanting to have to be three B hair because that's
Speaker 1: the more loosely curled hair as opposed to really kinky hair.
Speaker 1: Um or people talk about grades of hair. So there's
Speaker 1: still even if people aren't using good hair and bad hair,
Speaker 1: which they are, I mean you still hear it. But
Speaker 1: people are getting savvy about not saying good hair and
Speaker 1: bad hair because that's you know, kind of antiquated, and
Speaker 1: we know we're not supposed to say things like that.
Speaker 1: But the euphemisms are still their nice hair, uh, Indian
Speaker 1: hair to be hair, whatever it is, um, it's still um.
Speaker 1: The concepts are still very much a part of the culture,
Speaker 1: and we're still trying to break free of the idea
Speaker 1: that everybody's hair should be or that we all want
Speaker 1: hair that looks like you know, it's not even about
Speaker 1: wanting to look white, and that should be very much clarified.
Speaker 1: It's not about, oh, I want my hair to be
Speaker 1: long and blonde. It's more like, I want my hair
Speaker 1: to look like if I were biracial and had mixed hair,
Speaker 1: which was the hair that would signify to UM slave
Speaker 1: owners that this was a more worthwhile and more useful
Speaker 1: and more valuable slave because basically, uh, white people slave
Speaker 1: owners really believed that race was biological. So if if
Speaker 1: an African or a slave had more white blood in them,
Speaker 1: they were potentially um smarter. You know, they could learn more,
Speaker 1: they could do more, you could train them, you could
Speaker 1: have them in the house and have them running your household.
Speaker 1: Actually they were more intelligent because they had white, more
Speaker 1: white blood in them. So this good hair bad hare
Speaker 1: really was not about a beauty issue to start. It
Speaker 1: really was this idea that you were a superior being
Speaker 1: if you had more attributes, you had more physical attributes,
Speaker 1: which would mean more white blood running through you. And
Speaker 1: that was again a very deliver for its separating of
Speaker 1: the black population because if you kept, if you kept
Speaker 1: the black people themselves kind of add odd with each other,
Speaker 1: it was again easier to keep them from rising up
Speaker 1: as a group and rebelling. So the good hair was
Speaker 1: enforced by whites and then reinforced by the black community
Speaker 1: themselves because the lighter ones, the ones with the light
Speaker 1: lighter skin and looser curled hair, we're getting better treatment
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. Um. And that then put
Speaker 1: a division within the black community itself. So you have
Speaker 1: this perpetual reinforcement of that concept that the better, the
Speaker 1: looser your hair, the more resembled kind of white European hair,
Speaker 1: all of these benefits were bestowed upon you. So and
Speaker 1: that wasn't like one or two people. That was an
Speaker 1: entire population, and again not just in the US, but
Speaker 1: all throughout the places where Africans were enslaved by white Europeans.
Speaker 1: So it's gonna take a lot more than you know,
Speaker 1: the natural hair movement, which is doing great work in
Speaker 1: terms of UM making people realize just how wonderful their
Speaker 1: own natural hair is. UM. So that was a really
Speaker 1: long answer to say that, yes, we're still using good
Speaker 1: and bad hair terms and it's not gone from the community. Well,
Speaker 1: that's something that has persisted since the original publication of Hairstory.
Speaker 1: What has been the biggest development you've seen, you know,
Speaker 1: between two thousand one and now in terms of natural
Speaker 1: hair and American culture. Well, the biggest, I mean, the real,
Speaker 1: I mean, the huge, giant kind of thing that made
Speaker 1: all the difference was the Internet, which I think I
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, but you know, the Internet was simply the
Speaker 1: medium that allowed movement to blossom, which is really really
Speaker 1: the reason we had to update the book because the
Speaker 1: natural hair movement, which UM has you know, both the
Speaker 1: ON and I are hesitant when people want us to
Speaker 1: define it. What is this movement because there's no leader,
Speaker 1: you know, there's no doctrine, there's no Bible, there's no
Speaker 1: you know, official membership card to be a member of
Speaker 1: the movement. Um. Nonetheless, the idea, you know, the energy
Speaker 1: behind it has definitely been, um, kind of a grassroots
Speaker 1: energy coming from black and around the United States who
Speaker 1: have decided to stop straightening their hair with chemicals. And
Speaker 1: I make that distinction because we'll get to that in
Speaker 1: a second. But the idea that people are not just um,
Speaker 1: you know, not for some sort of political statement as
Speaker 1: it were in the sixties, where it was a real
Speaker 1: political statement and you know, there was a real you know,
Speaker 1: the civil rights movement, the AFRO was really a part
Speaker 1: of the political protest, whereas today in the you know,
Speaker 1: early two thousands, we saw women, black women, very very
Speaker 1: deliberately deciding to stop straightening their hair, not as a
Speaker 1: political movement as much as it was a beauty decision,
Speaker 1: which makes it political and revolutionary in ways, Um, because
Speaker 1: it was people saying, I can still be beautiful, and
Speaker 1: I am no longer of the belief that the only
Speaker 1: way my hair is beautiful and pretty and fun and
Speaker 1: acceptable and sexy and attractive if it's straight. Um. That
Speaker 1: is a revolutionary thought for black female in the United States.
Speaker 1: And so what we see is not just you know,
Speaker 1: women here and there taking their hair out and wearing
Speaker 1: it in an afro. But we're seeing an entire new
Speaker 1: language and lexicon and styling options of black women UM
Speaker 1: wearing their hair and actural styles and having fun with
Speaker 1: it and not again like I'm wearing an afro to
Speaker 1: make a serious political statement, but I'm wearing a twist
Speaker 1: out or I'm doing you know again. There's styles that
Speaker 1: were never heard of, and the beauty of it is
Speaker 1: that there are products. Now there's a whole new kind
Speaker 1: of culture around natural hair that is not political. It's
Speaker 1: completely beauty UM motivated. So UM that I think is
Speaker 1: the biggest change is that you have UM. You can
Speaker 1: look online and go see you know, thousands of hair
Speaker 1: tutorial videos, UM YouTube channels, blogs, websites where you can
Speaker 1: get information and information about, you know, how to do
Speaker 1: certain styles, and you can get UM communities talking about
Speaker 1: just products that they're using. You can go on a
Speaker 1: cruise ship and talk about your natural hair and how
Speaker 1: much fun it is UM. And you even have people
Speaker 1: who will, you know, if if you are discriminated against
Speaker 1: at work, you will have an entire online community supporting
Speaker 1: you to the point where you may you know, get
Speaker 1: your job back because there is such a vocal chorus
Speaker 1: of people supporting any black woman who decides to go
Speaker 1: to go natural. And again the industry is rising up
Speaker 1: around it to say, remember how it was saying before,
Speaker 1: how black hair crowd, black haircaracter products used to be
Speaker 1: just that one thing, as if black hair was all
Speaker 1: the same. Now you can go into any kind of
Speaker 1: mainstream store um, I mean like a whole foods target
Speaker 1: um and find products that are meant not just for
Speaker 1: one type of black hair, but multiple textures of black hair.
Speaker 1: And the products aren't in one kind of all brown
Speaker 1: bottle on the bottom shelf. They're beautifully packaged, they smell lovely.
Speaker 1: They allow black women to get involved into the beauty
Speaker 1: rituals that have been denied them for so long because
Speaker 1: we were supposedly all a monolithic group who had one
Speaker 1: type of hair and didn't spend the time, you know,
Speaker 1: playing with our natural hair um and seeing all the
Speaker 1: different things it could do. And so the community started
Speaker 1: doing this on their own, and industry, both manufacturers of
Speaker 1: products and salons have risen up to support them. And
Speaker 1: there's even a whole new um industry that has risen
Speaker 1: up around the natural hair movement, which is the natural
Speaker 1: hair meetup. And like I was not joking about a cruise.
Speaker 1: You can go on a cruise, you can have parties.
Speaker 1: There's natural hair parties, meetups, cruises, um uh, conventions. There's
Speaker 1: a whole industry around this idea that black women are
Speaker 1: um excited about their natural hair. And and while that
Speaker 1: to a non black person that might seem excessive, like
Speaker 1: why is anybody so obsessed about their hair? And it's
Speaker 1: because you have. It's almost an entirely different Um. It's
Speaker 1: a whole new experience to actually play with your natural hair,
Speaker 1: to know what it does. Because for generations and generations,
Speaker 1: black women have been putting chemicals on their hair and
Speaker 1: straightening it and believing that that was what their hair
Speaker 1: looked like. And it's like I'm trying to think of
Speaker 1: a an equivalent of what a white person might experience. Um, Okay,
Speaker 1: here's a good example. If you have been overweight your
Speaker 1: entire life and you go on a diet that actually works,
Speaker 1: I mean something that really feels good. You go on
Speaker 1: a diet or exercise and exercise plan, and you have
Speaker 1: a whole new you know, feeling about yourself and you
Speaker 1: actually look different, you would be. You'd probably be like one,
Speaker 1: you'd go by different clothes for yourself, you'd want to
Speaker 1: talk to people because it would just be like I
Speaker 1: have never I never knew that, you know, life with
Speaker 1: life is as a skinny person, Like I never knew
Speaker 1: that exercising so much fun. I never knew that, you know,
Speaker 1: I'd be going on all these dates because men would
Speaker 1: find me attractive with you know, being skinny. Right for
Speaker 1: black women, for them to suddenly have the whole different
Speaker 1: experience with their hair, that's almost what it's. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to think of something that you would be able to,
Speaker 1: you know, relate this to, because it's like I never
Speaker 1: knew my hair could do this, like I always thought,
Speaker 1: you know, for so long, black women were told like,
Speaker 1: you have to keep your hair straightened because if you don't,
Speaker 1: it's just unmanageable. It's ugly, it would be just a mess.
Speaker 1: You know, it would just be unattractive. And then you
Speaker 1: see on YouTube somebody whose hair looks like yours does
Speaker 1: so you try it and then you find out, wow,
Speaker 1: I didn't know my hair did this. I had no
Speaker 1: idea my hair could you know, curl in this way
Speaker 1: or I could style it that way and she's attractive
Speaker 1: and I could be attractive like that. Like it's a
Speaker 1: it's literally a revolutionary concept for women to to see
Speaker 1: their hair that's they've been told. I mean, it's like
Speaker 1: psychically in their psychic history that their hair is naturally ugly.
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh my god, it's not. It's not
Speaker 1: only is it not ugly, it's pretty and it's fun
Speaker 1: and I can buy nice products for it and and
Speaker 1: I can you know, I'm I'm. It's for a lot
Speaker 1: of black women once they go natural, it almost feels
Speaker 1: like they're like born again Christians or something like that,
Speaker 1: because they're so excited by this information that it seems
Speaker 1: that have been denied to them for so long, which
Speaker 1: it has. So there's a real sense of excitement enthusiasm
Speaker 1: about this natural hair move meant because again you've got
Speaker 1: years and years and years and years of people telling
Speaker 1: you one thing and then you discover the truth. So
Speaker 1: there is a bit of zeal it. Uh zealousness is
Speaker 1: that I think the word you know, to the to
Speaker 1: this movement and um that I think is the most
Speaker 1: exciting thing to see. And it's what's really is exciting
Speaker 1: is to see that it's happening, not just in the
Speaker 1: United States. But we, like I said, we went to London,
Speaker 1: we went to Amsterdam, Um, we talked, we were speaking Paris,
Speaker 1: that we were really talking to a lot of people
Speaker 1: in Paris as well as in Switzerland even and seeing
Speaker 1: the kind of excitement that this is spreading. Because what's
Speaker 1: happening in the US. People look at the US to see,
Speaker 1: you know, what's culturally cool, and it's spreading like wildfire
Speaker 1: are all over and in some countries and some cultures,
Speaker 1: it's it's an even more defying and revolutionary idea like
Speaker 1: um in the Dominican Republic, for example, where the idea
Speaker 1: of being black is such a dangerous thing to accept.
Speaker 1: Um for black women to kind of not even black women,
Speaker 1: any women of color with kinky hair in the Dominican
Speaker 1: Republic to stop straightening their hair. That's a really revolutionary act.
Speaker 1: But it's also very liberating. And what's happening there in
Speaker 1: the hair community is fascinating. So all of this to
Speaker 1: me is the most um, exciting and new things that
Speaker 1: happened in the last you know, ten years, ten to
Speaker 1: twelve years in the black hair community. Well, it seems
Speaker 1: like just culturally speaking, you keep using the word revolutionary
Speaker 1: and it seems even more and it does sound revolutionary,
Speaker 1: just the very concept of embracing hair for beauty's sake,
Speaker 1: and that's it and there are no qualifications necessary. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's that might sound so simple, but I mean it's
Speaker 1: it's pretty radical if you think about where we, as
Speaker 1: you know, American society are coming from when it comes
Speaker 1: to black hair. Exactly it is and that you know,
Speaker 1: even my father, I love him, he when I told
Speaker 1: him I was writing a book about hair, he was like,
Speaker 1: you know, so excited. That was my first book, and
Speaker 1: he was so proud of me. But he you know,
Speaker 1: you know, pull me aside. Are you sure there's really
Speaker 1: something to say? Let's what a long book about black hair?
Speaker 1: You know, people often look at me funny when I
Speaker 1: say that, you know my I mean, I'm a academic
Speaker 1: university professor, and when people say what's your area of
Speaker 1: interests of research, I'm like black hair. And it seems
Speaker 1: I mean, unless you understand where I'm coming from, it
Speaker 1: does seem like there couldn't possibly be that much to say.
Speaker 1: But it's incredible how um the hair is so telling
Speaker 1: in our againd of our cultural place in society. UM.
Speaker 1: Part of it's because the hair is so malleable. You know,
Speaker 1: we can't really change I mean you can go under
Speaker 1: the knife obviously, and you could in theory change your
Speaker 1: whole body. But in terms of kind of every day
Speaker 1: what you as an individual have control over, your hair
Speaker 1: is one of those things. You can change its color,
Speaker 1: you can change its texture, you can change the style
Speaker 1: every day you put a wing on. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: so many ways that you can change your hair to
Speaker 1: reflect what you think society expects of you. And that's
Speaker 1: true for any you know, black or white, or any
Speaker 1: other UM person of any background. The hair really is
Speaker 1: our one thing. And I mean think about men facial hair.
Speaker 1: I mean they can grow a beard and look like
Speaker 1: a completely different person. They can grow mustache, they can
Speaker 1: handle our mustaches. I mean hair really really is that
Speaker 1: thing that we have control over that can really change
Speaker 1: how we look. So in that respects, UM, In that respects,
Speaker 1: that's the universal truth about hair, UM. But then when
Speaker 1: you take it into the black society, into black the
Speaker 1: black community, UM, where we have we are the other
Speaker 1: in a white dominated society. Our hair is the gives
Speaker 1: us the ability to kind of fit in or not
Speaker 1: fit in, because it also it is that malleable thing. Um.
Speaker 1: There's this example of you know, Angela Davis, you know,
Speaker 1: who was a wanted woman and she was so identified
Speaker 1: with her afro that when she tied her afrow down
Speaker 1: and wore a wig, she was walking around, you know,
Speaker 1: walked through a group of police officers who didn't even
Speaker 1: look twice at her because she did didn't have that
Speaker 1: big afro, and she eluded, Um, she eluded police capture
Speaker 1: simply by changing her hairstyle. So it's, um, it is
Speaker 1: revolutionary to think because to think about black hair in
Speaker 1: the ways that we do, because it's really I mean,
Speaker 1: it's really identity politics, and it is how you know,
Speaker 1: If we choose to conform and we choose to use
Speaker 1: our hair to assimilate and fit in, that's one thing.
Speaker 1: But when we choose to buck the system, we choose
Speaker 1: to do something different, we obviously are gonna doubly stand out. Um.
Speaker 1: And it takes courage in a lot of ways to
Speaker 1: do that. Um. But when we do do it, and
Speaker 1: we do it well, you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: you know, positive responses from all over um. But I
Speaker 1: mean the reality is that our hair still causes people
Speaker 1: to question our loyalty to the country. Are whether or
Speaker 1: not we're you know, um, violent, whether we're criminal, whether
Speaker 1: we're anti society. It still says so much to the
Speaker 1: external culture what kind of black person are you? Based
Speaker 1: on what your hairstyle is doing. So, um, we're still
Speaker 1: judged very much by what our hair is doing. And
Speaker 1: that also is true cross ratio. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: if a white woman walks into a room and she
Speaker 1: has a mohawk and pink, you know, a pink mohawk,
Speaker 1: people are going to make assumptions about her, um, and
Speaker 1: she has long her versus short hair, curly or straight,
Speaker 1: all of that. You know, people are judged by their hairstyles.
Speaker 1: But again, Black people are doubly judged because their hairstyles
Speaker 1: seem to signify certain things to people. You know, again,
Speaker 1: are the anti establishment? Are they a drug dealer? Are
Speaker 1: they a gang member? All of these things are still
Speaker 1: caught up in our hair. So whatever we're doing stylistically,
Speaker 1: especially if it's different than the norm, really is a
Speaker 1: revolutionary act in a lot of ways. And I'll continue
Speaker 1: my conversation with Lori l. Tharp's about her book Hair Story,
Speaker 1: Untangling the Roots of Black Hair in America. When we
Speaker 1: come right back from a quick break and now back
Speaker 1: to the show, the last thing I wanted to ask
Speaker 1: you about how this natural hair movement and just black
Speaker 1: hair in general intersects with the workplace, because this is
Speaker 1: actually something we've heard from our listeners about as well,
Speaker 1: in terms of the persistent discrimination, particularly targeted towards black
Speaker 1: women regarding their hair in the workplace, because there's this
Speaker 1: idea that professional in quotes looks a specific way and
Speaker 1: it's very straight. And my my co host Caroline actually
Speaker 1: had a friend who in a job interview was wore
Speaker 1: her hair kind of straightened, and at the end of
Speaker 1: the interview, which she nailed, her few your boss said,
Speaker 1: now I hope that you plan to wear your hair
Speaker 1: like that as long as you work for us, Oh my,
Speaker 1: and as if it's nothing, as if it that is
Speaker 1: completely and totally fine. So um, how I mean, so
Speaker 1: where where does all of this fit together? I mean,
Speaker 1: are we I mean we just had the US military,
Speaker 1: for instance, updated, finally updated terror regulations for black female soldiers.
Speaker 1: I mean, is that a step do you think in
Speaker 1: in a domino effector is it going to take a
Speaker 1: long time? Well, um, I'm very I was very heartened
Speaker 1: to see that the military responded to all of the
Speaker 1: UM backlash and cries for un to please look again
Speaker 1: UM at their policy, which to me shows that when
Speaker 1: black women and black people stand together, UM, that their
Speaker 1: voices can be heard. UM. That was really uh, I
Speaker 1: thought a really positive response, and that they relaxed some
Speaker 1: of their their roles I thought was also very positive
Speaker 1: because it meant that they were listening. But they still
Speaker 1: um outlawed dreadlocks, which I thought was still a which
Speaker 1: you know, actually allows me to answer the rest of
Speaker 1: your question that you know the idea that I don't
Speaker 1: know who is making these decisions um, either in the
Speaker 1: military or anywhere else, that you know, you that certain
Speaker 1: styles signify certain things about a person. Um. Yes, it
Speaker 1: may be true that there is a drug dealer out
Speaker 1: there who has the dreadlocks, but that does not mean
Speaker 1: I think we all learned that in the seventh grade
Speaker 1: logic class that all drug dealers therefore where dreadlocks. Like. UM,
Speaker 1: there's this. I believe that the reason that the military
Speaker 1: and other UM professions organizations, I mean everything from FedEx
Speaker 1: to six Flags have outlawed dreadlocks for their employees. Um
Speaker 1: and especially I mean when it goes all the way
Speaker 1: down to six Flags or even a male carrier from
Speaker 1: like a FedEx or ups who you know, large complaints
Speaker 1: about employees wearing um dread blacks. The only reasons like that,
Speaker 1: The main reasons that people are saying that is because
Speaker 1: they claim that those are scary hairstyles, and that can
Speaker 1: only come from a belief system that there's something inherently
Speaker 1: scary about dreadlocks or that people who wear dreadlocks are
Speaker 1: involved in nefarious activity, which goes to the back to
Speaker 1: the idea that you know, when there are policies workplace
Speaker 1: policies for example, about certain hairstyles. There's one. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's very clear to me that certain organizations, if we're
Speaker 1: talking about a corporate environment, that they are going to
Speaker 1: have a dress code. And I can even understand to
Speaker 1: a large extent why any kind of out of the
Speaker 1: ordinary hairstyle is going to be frowned upon. And that's
Speaker 1: where again white or black, UM, I would I believe that, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, a corporate banking environment who still makes women
Speaker 1: and men wear blue suits red ties. That's it, are
Speaker 1: gonna say something if you come to work with you know,
Speaker 1: even if a woman has just excessively long hair, that's
Speaker 1: always kind of out because it would be distracting. But
Speaker 1: there's still like a double standard for black people because
Speaker 1: certain styles, even if you don't know anything about them,
Speaker 1: are just deemed inappropriate simply because there is an association
Speaker 1: with negative behavior with that style, and that's just that's
Speaker 1: just racist. I mean, there's no other way to say it.
Speaker 1: And we are again, this is why we wanted to
Speaker 1: update the book. This is why we have our website here,
Speaker 1: story online dot com because this keeps happening where people
Speaker 1: are discriminated against, and we're seeing it even in like
Speaker 1: elementary schools, where young girls are even being told that
Speaker 1: they have to leave the school or go home because
Speaker 1: they're wearing their hair and dreadlocks or afropuffs styles that
Speaker 1: somebody has designated as inappropriate. And when we talk, most
Speaker 1: of these are natural hairstyles, which would assume when you
Speaker 1: say they're inappropriate for the school or inappropriate for the workplace,
Speaker 1: then you're suggesting that natural black hair doesn't belong in
Speaker 1: an academic environment, or that it doesn't belong in the workplace.
Speaker 1: Those are questionable. Those are really dangerous precedents to set,
Speaker 1: in my opinion. And again, I'm not suggesting that anybody
Speaker 1: should be able to come to work with a Bob
Speaker 1: Marley head of dreadlocks if you're working in a bank,
Speaker 1: But if your dreadlocks are neat and in a bun,
Speaker 1: you know they're no more. I mean, what's the difference,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, like, that's my This kind
Speaker 1: of wholehearted discrimination against an entire type of hairstyle, to me,
Speaker 1: shows that there's not enough nuance or wanting to make
Speaker 1: the It's not even making an option, it's about paying
Speaker 1: attention to what is um a different cultures, you know
Speaker 1: hair um. The military, I feel like they kind of
Speaker 1: took that into they they I feel that that's what
Speaker 1: they were listening to and that black women were saying,
Speaker 1: you're outlawing the very style that would make the most
Speaker 1: sense for a woman in combat. You know, styles that
Speaker 1: are easy to do that don't need a lot of maintenance,
Speaker 1: like twists and dreadlocks, and you've just outlawed them. And
Speaker 1: you actually put something as ridiculous as you can wear
Speaker 1: a wig wearing a wig in combat, Like, I mean,
Speaker 1: just thinking about it, it's ridiculous. And so it's like
Speaker 1: clearly whoever was writing that policy didn't know enough about
Speaker 1: black hair, like biologically to say that doesn't make sense,
Speaker 1: Like that's not either economically efficient or efficient in terms
Speaker 1: of styling for what we want our soldiers to be
Speaker 1: able to do. Um. And I think it's the same
Speaker 1: thing in the professional world. You know, people are making
Speaker 1: assumptions like you just can't wear that style because that
Speaker 1: means you're drug dealer, or that means you're you know,
Speaker 1: I can't I can't even rationalize why a short neat
Speaker 1: afro isn't appropriate in a certain board room because it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's simply a very simple, basic non um
Speaker 1: in your face style. And yet they've certainly these certain
Speaker 1: looks aren't it's simply because it's an afro, it would
Speaker 1: be considered inappropriate. So where we are today, I think
Speaker 1: in um, I mean, I think it should be clarified
Speaker 1: that you're there are a lot of professions, I mean,
Speaker 1: some um, very creative professions, like the magazine industry, which
Speaker 1: I have worked in in the academia, I've never been
Speaker 1: dinged for my hairstyles. And I've worned every natural hairstyle
Speaker 1: you could imagine, dreadlocks, afros, big poofy hair, I mean everything.
Speaker 1: And I've only been complimented on my hair. My co author,
Speaker 1: Iata Bird, same thing. She's worked in a variety of
Speaker 1: creative UM communications positions and she's never been dinged on
Speaker 1: her hair either. But every single day we hear stories
Speaker 1: like you just shared with me, people who are in
Speaker 1: corporate environments who are told in the interview or don't
Speaker 1: get the job, or are reprimanded because of their hairstyles.
Speaker 1: So I mean even on we you know, just this
Speaker 1: past year, we saw a woman you know, on broadcast
Speaker 1: television lose her job for natural hairstyle related issues. So UM,
Speaker 1: I would say that we are No. I don't think
Speaker 1: we've gotten any better, because these things are still happening,
Speaker 1: and they seem to be happening still rather regularly. UM.
Speaker 1: But I feel like it just to a certain extent,
Speaker 1: Like if I'm ever, if I'm ever UM counseling young
Speaker 1: people who are looking for jobs, I would say, you know,
Speaker 1: know the environment that you're going into, and if you're
Speaker 1: going into a corporate environment and your your natural hairstyles
Speaker 1: have or into you. You have to make a decision
Speaker 1: is the job more important or your hair more important,
Speaker 1: because people aren't going to budge because of one person.
Speaker 1: If they have a if they have a uniform policy,
Speaker 1: be prepared for your hair to match the uniform because
Speaker 1: there is still a standard that for the most part,
Speaker 1: natural black hairstyles don't meet. UM. And this too is
Speaker 1: an international phenomenon. There's a I mean, it was a YouTube.
Speaker 1: It went viral because there was a young man who
Speaker 1: worked for Air France as an airline steward and they
Speaker 1: outlined outlawed dreadlocks, and he wore a wig to work
Speaker 1: every day, took it off when he got to when
Speaker 1: he got home, and put it back on when he
Speaker 1: got on the airplane, and just to cover up his dreadlocks,
Speaker 1: which were very neat, very neat trim short dreadlocks. But
Speaker 1: it was a uniform policy and so he just he
Speaker 1: said it like my wiggest part of my uniform. So
Speaker 1: I don't think that we have gotten any kind of
Speaker 1: further in our acceptance of UM certain hairstyles in the
Speaker 1: workplace at all. UM. My only hope is that again,
Speaker 1: young people who are entering the workplace understand this, and
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's a battle they need to
Speaker 1: fight if they are trying to get a job. I
Speaker 1: think that at this point they need to know that
Speaker 1: they have to decide if their hair or their job
Speaker 1: is more important. It's just unfortunate that's even a decision
Speaker 1: that has to be made. I know, it's really I mean,
Speaker 1: and again, I'm I'm old. You know I'm old. I
Speaker 1: Like I said, I've had the luck of choosing professions
Speaker 1: that are on the creative side. This has never been
Speaker 1: an issue for me. It has never like it to me.
Speaker 1: When you said that about your colleague, I I it's
Speaker 1: almost like I can't believe that it's true. I read
Speaker 1: about it all the time I studied, I talked to
Speaker 1: people about it, so I very much know it's true.
Speaker 1: But it's still boggles the mind that a young person
Speaker 1: has to think about whether they should cut off their
Speaker 1: beautiful dreadlocks that they've been growing in stince they were,
Speaker 1: you know, sixteen or something, that they keep meat and
Speaker 1: professional in a bun, because there is a very large
Speaker 1: possibility that the person that interviews them sees their dreadlocks
Speaker 1: and decides that that's inappropriate, or that there not corporate material,
Speaker 1: or that they can't even see their stellar resume because
Speaker 1: they're looking at their hair and thinking that person is
Speaker 1: not going to be a team player. That person is
Speaker 1: probably involved in a deep sea the underworld. I mean,
Speaker 1: I can't even guess what's going on in their minds,
Speaker 1: but whatever it is, in today's world, I cannot honestly
Speaker 1: tell somebody to risk a hairstyle if they really want
Speaker 1: the job. And and you know again I think that
Speaker 1: that's again if a young I can't you can't equate
Speaker 1: that with a you know, in a you cannot equate
Speaker 1: that to people who are not black, because there's really
Speaker 1: not a hairstyle that a white person would have that
Speaker 1: would automatically dis qualify them from um a job. I mean,
Speaker 1: if a if a white woman had really long hair,
Speaker 1: she could always pin it up in a bun, you know,
Speaker 1: if she I mean, I don't. I can't really think
Speaker 1: of an equivalent where she would have to, you know,
Speaker 1: cut off her hair and start over again to get
Speaker 1: a job. Like it just I don't see anything. I mean,
Speaker 1: she might have to take out her six earrings, but
Speaker 1: that's different. That's not the same thing. As um, cutting
Speaker 1: off your hair or putting chemicals in your hair, or
Speaker 1: putting extreme heat on your hair so that it looks
Speaker 1: like whatever the corporate world wants it to look like.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's I mean, it's altering your body to
Speaker 1: get a job. Well, and that's gets to the point
Speaker 1: of you know what you said, where this is simply
Speaker 1: racism in the guise of professionalism, and so it kind
Speaker 1: of gets this past under like under dress codes, professionalism,
Speaker 1: corporate jargon, etcetera. But the underlying issue is a history
Speaker 1: of persistent racism. Absolutely. And um it's like I said,
Speaker 1: I've never been in that situation, and I don't even
Speaker 1: know what I would do. I mean, if I had
Speaker 1: a family defeat, I certainly. I mean, again, we've talked
Speaker 1: to so many people who have been in this situation.
Speaker 1: A good friend of mine was a corporate lawyer in
Speaker 1: New York City and she had dreadlocks, and she too,
Speaker 1: she had a wig in her office. She would just
Speaker 1: put the wig on when she got to work and
Speaker 1: take it off when she left. She didn't take it home.
Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't a part of it was part
Speaker 1: of her uniform. And um, I guess that I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that's the samest way to you know, to
Speaker 1: deal with that is you put on your corporate uniform
Speaker 1: and it's just for the She left it on her desk.
Speaker 1: She had a little wigstand and she was like, I
Speaker 1: put it on when I get there and take it
Speaker 1: off when I leave. Um So I mean, I that's
Speaker 1: the extra burden. I mean, it is the extra burden
Speaker 1: that it requires to you know, it's not about how
Speaker 1: how good your grades were, it's not about how many
Speaker 1: internships you've had. It's still about what you how you
Speaker 1: present so that you make the people around you comfortable.
Speaker 1: So it's the burden is on the black person trying
Speaker 1: to get the job and you know, to be Again,
Speaker 1: the um Hampton University, historically black university, their business school
Speaker 1: has outlawed natural hairstyles for their business students because they
Speaker 1: claim that they are preparing you for the world which
Speaker 1: you are going to enter. So you can't even be
Speaker 1: in the business school at this black institution with natural
Speaker 1: hair because they too have said this is you know,
Speaker 1: it's not going to be acceptable, so it won't be
Speaker 1: acceptable here. So again this is uh, this is an
Speaker 1: issue that has many sides to it and Um, the
Speaker 1: champions are the people who are fighting against and aren't
Speaker 1: necessarily the ones who you would think and the people
Speaker 1: who are are supporting it aren't necessarily the same one.
Speaker 1: So you would think it's a it's a very I mean,
Speaker 1: you you can find people who would fight on all
Speaker 1: sides of this issue. Um, it's interesting that the um,
Speaker 1: I think it was one of the deans at Hampton said,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know why people insist on wearing
Speaker 1: these styles. They don't they aren't traditional black styles to
Speaker 1: where you know, he said, you know, Malcolm Xton were dreadlocks. Um, Um,
Speaker 1: Martin Luther King Jr. Didn't wear dreadlocks, So you know,
Speaker 1: why why do you think that you have to have
Speaker 1: dreadlocks to be you know, to be a proud black
Speaker 1: man or something like that. I'm paraphrasing, and I'm you know,
Speaker 1: I'm just pointing out. I'm trying to make the point that, um,
Speaker 1: not all black people also believe that this is that
Speaker 1: it's that that, um, not all black people are against
Speaker 1: the idea that you know, there should be some sort
Speaker 1: of corporate environment, corporate hair code as well. So um,
Speaker 1: so again, so the people who are perpetuating this this idea,
Speaker 1: aren't just white people. That's also some thing to remain
Speaker 1: to keep in mind. Well, and if it was unclear
Speaker 1: to any of the listeners at the beginning of our
Speaker 1: conversation how someone could write an entire book about this,
Speaker 1: I think it should be pretty clear now. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I mean we haven't even touched the tip of the iceberg.
Speaker 1: I know there's so so much to talk about. Well, Laurie,
Speaker 1: those were all of my questions where you and honestly, yes,
Speaker 1: I could continue asking you so many questions. UM, but
Speaker 1: is there any final takeaway for our listeners about black
Speaker 1: hair about the book? UM, just anything you'd like to add.
Speaker 1: I mean, the thing is that again, when it goes
Speaker 1: back to why we wrote the book, when UM, I
Speaker 1: have this experience. UM, when I was still I worked
Speaker 1: in a corporate environment. UM. I worked at a PR
Speaker 1: agency when I first got a college. And UM, one
Speaker 1: of the clients that UM I wasn't working on, but
Speaker 1: one of colleagues was working on, was a a product. UM.
Speaker 1: It was a black hair care line called it was
Speaker 1: Revalon's Cream of Nature line of shampoos and conditioners. And
Speaker 1: one of my white colleagues came into my office and
Speaker 1: saw the I was like, I had a product poster,
Speaker 1: product sample on my death and she looked at it
Speaker 1: and like recoiled and said, oh my god, what is that?
Speaker 1: That sounds disgusting? And I was trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what she was talking about, and she was like, cream
Speaker 1: of Nature that sounds like dirty, Like what is that?
Speaker 1: And it just shocked me for a minute, because, I mean,
Speaker 1: I understood where her mind had gone, but I couldn't
Speaker 1: figure out why she didn't know what cream of Nature was, um,
Speaker 1: because it was the shampoo in my bathroom for my
Speaker 1: whole entire life, Like it seemed as usual, as regular
Speaker 1: as ivory soaped. And that's when it really hit me,
Speaker 1: Like that was one of those big moments where I
Speaker 1: realized that white people and black people live in completely
Speaker 1: different worlds when it comes to our hair. That you know,
Speaker 1: black people, for the most part, no everything about white
Speaker 1: hair culture because it's what we see, it's what's on television,
Speaker 1: it's within movies, it's just what's in the public eye.
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, white people don't know anything.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to say like they don't anything,
Speaker 1: but black hair culture is a complete mystery because it's
Speaker 1: done behind closed doors, in separate spaces, in separate places,
Speaker 1: and until recently, even the products that we used were
Speaker 1: you know, on separate shelves at the drug store, so
Speaker 1: you wouldn't even realize that there are different products. So
Speaker 1: there's this some idea that we had that you know,
Speaker 1: if not just black people but non black people understood
Speaker 1: black hair culture, that we could really um, you know,
Speaker 1: bridge some of these you know, big gaps that there
Speaker 1: are between you know, black and white America, which people
Speaker 1: tend to think that those issues are you know, because
Speaker 1: of you know, segregation and busting and um, you know politics,
Speaker 1: when it's really I think a lot more about the
Speaker 1: little intimate things that we do on a day to
Speaker 1: day basis, and so much of you know, paining comes
Speaker 1: from just misunderstanding and not knowing. So the kennel this,
Speaker 1: can I touch your hair? I don't understand. Like, it's
Speaker 1: just about understanding and learning and knowing. So that's why
Speaker 1: we wrote the book. That's why we love to do
Speaker 1: the radio interviews because, um, the more people know and
Speaker 1: and total asterix here is that not just white people,
Speaker 1: but black people as well, because a lot of people,
Speaker 1: a lot of black people don't even know their own
Speaker 1: history of their hair so feel maybe um sensitive about it,
Speaker 1: but don't even understand why on both sides of the coin.
Speaker 1: I think if more people actually understood where so many,
Speaker 1: so much of this hurt, but also so much of
Speaker 1: the celebration and the and the culture comes from, then
Speaker 1: we bridge the gaps of misunderstandings. And you know, that
Speaker 1: next person who is interviewing a black person doesn't say,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I hope you can wear your hair
Speaker 1: like that. You know, it's more of a oh nice hair,
Speaker 1: or maybe she'll have her hair differently tomorrow, but I'll
Speaker 1: understand that that's very normal. Um. That's what we're hoping for,
Speaker 1: is that's why we wrote the book, is so that
Speaker 1: all of my Americans, UM, would take the time to
Speaker 1: just learn a little bit about this very public, very
Speaker 1: public thing of black hair that has a lot of
Speaker 1: you know, implications and radications within our culture. Well, I
Speaker 1: just want to thank you for coming on stuff I've
Speaker 1: never told you, to teach us and our me and
Speaker 1: our listeners all about this and clear up misunderstandings and
Speaker 1: just fill in all of these gaps that very much
Speaker 1: need to be filled in. Um. Last thing I just
Speaker 1: want to ask is where people can go to find
Speaker 1: more uh information about you, Ayanna and the book because
Speaker 1: it is fantastic and I highly recommend that people read it. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. People can UM go to our
Speaker 1: website hair story online dot com all one word, no
Speaker 1: caps or anything, hair story online dot Com and that's
Speaker 1: where you can find out information about the book. There's
Speaker 1: links to Ayana and are my um individual web pages.
Speaker 1: There's always updated information about what's going on in the
Speaker 1: world of black hair and as well where you'll be
Speaker 1: able to see us if we're doing any speaking tours
Speaker 1: or anything like that. We're not doing a whole lot
Speaker 1: of speaking anymore like right now. Certain events that are
Speaker 1: coming up will be there, but if you want to
Speaker 1: see us, that's where to find us is we have
Speaker 1: you know, we have a calendar for page on there. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much again to Lori L. Tharps. We
Speaker 1: hope you go check out her website and definitely pick
Speaker 1: up her book hair Story, Untangling the Roots of Black
Speaker 1: Hair in America. And we definitely definitely want to hear
Speaker 1: from our listeners on this topic. What types of issues
Speaker 1: have you dealt with with your hair. What types of
Speaker 1: things have you heard from other people? I'm sure there
Speaker 1: are all sorts of stories out there. Yeah, So email
Speaker 1: us mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is
Speaker 1: where you can do that. You can also tweet us
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook. And we
Speaker 1: have a couple of letters about our curly hair episode
Speaker 1: that we did a little while back to share with
Speaker 1: you right now. So I've got a letter here from
Speaker 1: Lacy and she said, I'm currently transitioning from here as
Speaker 1: a flat ironing my hair to letting it go curly,
Speaker 1: and it's been a major struggle with my own preconceived
Speaker 1: notions of curly hair is unkempt, and I wanted to
Speaker 1: add a couple of things. One is another movie where
Speaker 1: curly hair is potentially used as symbolism. And How to
Speaker 1: Lose a Guy In Ten Days, Kate Hudson's character starts
Speaker 1: as a stick straight, slick blonde actually working at a
Speaker 1: fashion magazine, but as her character transitions away from that,
Speaker 1: she gets curlier and curlier. Finally, I'm an attorney, and
Speaker 1: even though I'm trying to wear my hair more naturally
Speaker 1: for court, I still show up with straightened hair in
Speaker 1: a ponytail. No matter what statement I'm trying to make,
Speaker 1: I can't have an old fashioned male judge think my
Speaker 1: case was sloppy because of his perceptions about my hair
Speaker 1: and potentially risk losing a case. I hate that that's
Speaker 1: how it is, but there isn't much I can do personally.
Speaker 1: I'd also love to hear an episode on how female
Speaker 1: attorneys must dress for occasions like court. By the way,
Speaker 1: every once in a while a judge will write an
Speaker 1: article about slutty or frumpy attorneys and that never goes
Speaker 1: over very well. Thanks for the great podcast. This is
Speaker 1: my first time writing in and I just love your episodes.
Speaker 1: It gets me through some of my more tedious tasks
Speaker 1: of my day. So thanks lazy Okay. I have a
Speaker 1: letter here from t J. She says, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for covering this topic. I stopped chemically straightening my
Speaker 1: hair in middle school and stopped using heat after my
Speaker 1: first year in college. I have kinky, curly hair. By
Speaker 1: the way, so many African American women spend years not
Speaker 1: knowing what their hair actually looks like, and are even
Speaker 1: afraid to find out because of the prominent quote good hair,
Speaker 1: Bad Hair notions that plague the community. I found some
Speaker 1: interesting articles. Uh, and t J talks about articles on
Speaker 1: the website Black Roll with Long Hair. She says one
Speaker 1: about the Army changing regulations for certain hairstyles and another
Speaker 1: about an old Louisiana law that forced women of color
Speaker 1: to wear scarves because of their fabulous hairstyles. Another current
Speaker 1: issue is chemical relax or companies trying their hardest to
Speaker 1: roll out lines of quote unquote natural products for curly hair.
Speaker 1: And so again that website that t J pointed out
Speaker 1: is Black Girl with Long Hair. So thank you for
Speaker 1: the excellent talking point, t J, and thanks everybody who's
Speaker 1: written into us Moms Steven House. Stuffworks dot com is
Speaker 1: our email address and for links to all of our
Speaker 1: social media as well as all of our blogs, videos,
Speaker 1: and podcasts, including this one that also include all of
Speaker 1: our sources. So you can follow along while you listen,
Speaker 1: Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot
Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics.
Speaker 1: Is it how stuff Works dot com. Four