Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how
Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Holly Frind, I'm Tracy Wilson, and today we're going
Speaker 1: all the way back to the third century and to
Speaker 1: a city that's said to have been built by Solomon,
Speaker 1: who was once called tad Moore and then it became
Speaker 1: in as paul Myra and it uh sits on the
Speaker 1: northeast edge of the Syrian Desert. And our focus today
Speaker 1: is on a woman who was actually covered in the
Speaker 1: podcast several years ago, uh, Zenobia of Palmyra. And that
Speaker 1: was when the podcast was running much shorter, and uh,
Speaker 1: Katie and Sarah did an episode on her. And Zenobia
Speaker 1: is a historical figure that has become so mythic and
Speaker 1: she's you know, classified as a warrior woman. Uh. And
Speaker 1: she there are so many variations to her story and
Speaker 1: there's so many layers to the politics that we're going
Speaker 1: on at the time with area and specifically Palmyra and Rome,
Speaker 1: that I thought maybe it would be nice to give
Speaker 1: a more fleshed out version of it. Um And it's
Speaker 1: an interesting pronunciation point. I know they say Palmyra in
Speaker 1: the original episode. I listened to a bunch of different
Speaker 1: pronunciation guides, the overwhelming majority went with Palmyra. So just yes,
Speaker 1: we do that. Sometimes we start looking for pronunciations for
Speaker 1: things and we will hear it makes it way worse.
Speaker 1: We will hear multiple completely different pronunciations from equally trustworthy
Speaker 1: sources and like equally native sources to the place that
Speaker 1: we're talking about. Yeah, I mean that happens with um.
Speaker 1: You know, if you listen to English all over the
Speaker 1: United States, certainly, then if you include other countries to
Speaker 1: speak English as their first language, you will hear many
Speaker 1: different pronunciations of common words and even specific place names.
Speaker 1: So it happens. But we're going with Palmyra for this one.
Speaker 1: So there was an article on pre Islamic Arab queens
Speaker 1: that was written for the American Journal of Semitic Languages
Speaker 1: and Literatures way back in and in that article, author
Speaker 1: Nabia Abbott opens by noting that the first Arab queen
Speaker 1: on record is in the tenth century b C. And
Speaker 1: that name will no doubt be familiar to our listeners
Speaker 1: because that first queen was the Queen of Sheba. And
Speaker 1: while the biblical account of her visit to King Solomon
Speaker 1: is a little short on details and specificity about her
Speaker 1: uh and even her origins as being from South Arabia
Speaker 1: is pretty consistently debated by historians. As a monarch, she
Speaker 1: became ingrained in the stories of many different cultures and
Speaker 1: many different religions, and she's even referenced casually in conversation
Speaker 1: by people like, aren't you just the Queen of Sheba?
Speaker 1: Uh just become an idiom? Just really, she's her own
Speaker 1: little magical icon. But there have been many, many Arab queens.
Speaker 1: And while the Queen of Sheba may have paved the way,
Speaker 1: the wh they we're talking about today came to be
Speaker 1: known as Palmira's rebel queen in the third century, and
Speaker 1: she came into her position through marriage, but she really
Speaker 1: proved to be an extremely capable ruler. So to get
Speaker 1: into her story, we need a little bit of background
Speaker 1: of the relationship between Rome and Palmyra. So in the
Speaker 1: year two thirty five, there was a revolt which was
Speaker 1: engineered by maxim Inist, who was commander of the Roman army,
Speaker 1: and this led to the murders of the ruling duo
Speaker 1: of Rome at the time, that was Alexander Severus and
Speaker 1: his mother Julia Avita Mamaya and the death of the
Speaker 1: two of them kicked off this half century long period
Speaker 1: of civil unrest. During the fifty years from two thirty
Speaker 1: five to eighty five, there were more than two dozen
Speaker 1: emperors as anarchy and revolt just sort of became the
Speaker 1: way that things worked. And a lot of these rulers
Speaker 1: were not actually Roman. Yes, so you're looking at an
Speaker 1: average rain time of two years or us. There were
Speaker 1: some that were in longer, which meant others ran shorter.
Speaker 1: That's a lot of quick turnover uh. And so for example,
Speaker 1: from to forty four to to forty nine, speaking of
Speaker 1: rulers that were not actually Roman, UH, Marcus Julius Philippus ruled,
Speaker 1: and he had previously been known as Philip the Arab UH.
Speaker 1: He had a distinguished military service and that combined with
Speaker 1: some wildly moves and getting discontented soldiers to revolt for him,
Speaker 1: actually gained him leadership in Rome after outstaying Gordian the
Speaker 1: fourth and Marcus Julius Philippus wanted to set up an
Speaker 1: Arab dynasty, so he actually promoted members of his own family,
Speaker 1: including his seven year old son, into prominent political positions.
Speaker 1: But since his rule did fall in that fifty years
Speaker 1: of unrest. I don't think it's a huge spoiler to
Speaker 1: say that his ambitions of having a dynasty uh were
Speaker 1: a little bit dashed. But another family did manage to
Speaker 1: create a near dynasty, not in Rome proper, but in
Speaker 1: all my Ara. Sometime around two thirty or two thirty one,
Speaker 1: Odin Athis became a Roman senator. His son Heron was
Speaker 1: the first man to be titled rass Tadmer or raised Tadmore,
Speaker 1: making him the chief of Palmyra, which was a city
Speaker 1: in central Syria, and palm Ira dates back at least
Speaker 1: to the nineteenth century b c e. Though in the
Speaker 1: third century a road running through it and its oasis
Speaker 1: made it made it an important travel and trade route. Uh.
Speaker 1: The pal Irene population was descended from many many tribes
Speaker 1: that had blended together, and they actually spoke this dialect
Speaker 1: of Aramaic, so it was almost like this really interesting
Speaker 1: trade route melting pot um. You know. It became a
Speaker 1: really central place for things to come and go, and
Speaker 1: even for people to kind of come and go and
Speaker 1: add their own cultural flavor, and it's um. It was
Speaker 1: very unique in that way. Heron also had a son
Speaker 1: named odin Athis after his grandfather, and he was able
Speaker 1: not only to inherit the power and standing of his father,
Speaker 1: but also to really consolidate and expand it. He managed
Speaker 1: to rise to such a big position of prominence that
Speaker 1: he eventually became recognized as the king of Palmyra, and
Speaker 1: that at that point the city had become a really
Speaker 1: significant seat of influence in the region. So if that
Speaker 1: sounds a little bit wild, with all of this sudden
Speaker 1: gathering of power and then a person being able to say,
Speaker 1: by the way, I'm king of this area now, um,
Speaker 1: when he had been you know, sort of more of
Speaker 1: a a lower level ruler, it is wild. But remember
Speaker 1: that Rome was kind of a train wreck at this point.
Speaker 1: It was in a perpetual state of chaos. There was
Speaker 1: constant in fighting, you know, one ruler was being overthrown
Speaker 1: after another, and Sasanian Persian was a very real threat
Speaker 1: to Rome at the time. Uh. And incidentally, Palmira sat
Speaker 1: squarely between Persia and Rome. And what that means is
Speaker 1: that odin Athis, in the midst of all of this
Speaker 1: in fighting and him growing his city and his power,
Speaker 1: had actually become the most important politician in what was
Speaker 1: then called the Roman East. Very fortunately for the Romans,
Speaker 1: odin Athos was a gifted military strategist, so in spite
Speaker 1: of Persia being really better positioned in terms of power,
Speaker 1: he was able to shut down the Persian advances on
Speaker 1: Rome's territory and power via the series of well planned
Speaker 1: campaigns and uh. Just as an interesting side note, where
Speaker 1: odin ath has kind of put his loyalty at this
Speaker 1: point in time was sort of interesting. Many historians will say,
Speaker 1: really he was better aligned with Persia, but there were
Speaker 1: some other conflicts going on there that kind of made
Speaker 1: him throw in his lot with Rome. Uh. And so
Speaker 1: that's really why he defended the area against the oncoming Persians. Uh.
Speaker 1: And But despite his popularity and his celebrated status for
Speaker 1: having basically saved Rome from a much more powerful and
Speaker 1: well organized army, odin Athis was assassinated in two sixty six,
Speaker 1: and at the same time, his eldest son, who is
Speaker 1: yet another Heron because they kept naming one after one,
Speaker 1: would named their next son after the father, and so
Speaker 1: it goes odan athas hair and oaths Heron Uh was
Speaker 1: also killed. So his his heir at the time, was killed.
Speaker 1: His obvious air Um and that sort of leads us
Speaker 1: to how Zenobia came to power right and about sixteen
Speaker 1: years before his death in the year to fifty, odin
Speaker 1: Athis married Zenobia, and with his sudden death, she stepped
Speaker 1: in to act as regent for their surviving son, Babel Athis.
Speaker 1: And uh for a little bit of background on Zenobia,
Speaker 1: because she does sort of come into the story and
Speaker 1: the politics almost out of nowhere. Uh. There's a book
Speaker 1: by Pat Southern called Empress Zenobia, Palmira's Rebel Queen, and
Speaker 1: in it the author points out that because we don't
Speaker 1: really have a reliable account of Zenobia's life, her story
Speaker 1: really has a lot of uh different versions and variations.
Speaker 1: Arab sources referenced her as being the daughter of a
Speaker 1: chief of the Umlaki or i'm a Laki tribe, which
Speaker 1: who was named Nila, and she is in some tellings
Speaker 1: labeled as Queen Toddy and is sometimes referenced as Navsha,
Speaker 1: although that name is also used in some versions of
Speaker 1: the story for a sister that Zenobia may or may
Speaker 1: not have even had. Um. Another theory about her origin
Speaker 1: actually suggests that she was the daughter of Julius Aurelius
Speaker 1: Zenobia's Zabdila, who was an army leader of Palmyra Uh
Speaker 1: and some even suggests that she was actually a descendant
Speaker 1: of Antiochus. So there is a lot of um questioning
Speaker 1: and many question marks surrounding even her parentage. So any
Speaker 1: story that you hear about her has likely been colored
Speaker 1: by the person who told it a little bit. So
Speaker 1: much like when we did the Buddhica story, it was
Speaker 1: a very similar situation where it's like, there are lots
Speaker 1: of accounts, but they're a little fuzzy and they don't
Speaker 1: seem to match up. So just keep that in mind
Speaker 1: as we talk about some new be a going forward.
Speaker 1: Her name on the coinage of her rule is Septimia
Speaker 1: Zenobia sebast So since naming often denoted family lines at
Speaker 1: this point, it's led some people to wonder about a
Speaker 1: different father than all of those who were listed before.
Speaker 1: But it's kind of it's more possible that the name
Speaker 1: was actually bestowed upon her by her husband. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: when he had risen to a certain level of prominence,
Speaker 1: he bestowed that name on people on many people in
Speaker 1: his um, his group, his close friends, and family, because
Speaker 1: names were very important and considered a big element of
Speaker 1: respect and it's also worth noting, and they talk about
Speaker 1: it a little bit more in the episode that Katie
Speaker 1: and Syrit did that just in making her own coinage,
Speaker 1: Zenobia was being a little bit rebellious by a little bit,
Speaker 1: I mean a lot um uh, you know, rather than
Speaker 1: going with the standard Roman currency and bringing that in
Speaker 1: her own. And one interesting point that I found when
Speaker 1: looking through Pat Southern's book, she describes the source material
Speaker 1: when researching Zenobia as quote irritatingly contradictory. If I just
Speaker 1: found that sort of charming, because I think we've all
Speaker 1: run up against that when we're doing research, particularly on
Speaker 1: really ancient topics. They don't match up all the time,
Speaker 1: so we kind of do our best to put the
Speaker 1: pieces of the puzzle together, but there's always going to
Speaker 1: be a little bit of uncertainty, especially people in antiquity who,
Speaker 1: like we're not necessarily born into a really notable family.
Speaker 1: They just kind of arrive on the scene. They just
Speaker 1: show up, and we're going to kind of guess who
Speaker 1: where they came from. According to this sparse information that
Speaker 1: we have, Zenobia was born in two forty or two
Speaker 1: forty one, But there's really no corroboration on these dates.
Speaker 1: Also problematic is the fact that sources list her as
Speaker 1: seventeen or eighteen when she married odan Athis in two five.
Speaker 1: So we have a lot of numbers that no A'll
Speaker 1: really add up. Yeah, the math is not doesn't really
Speaker 1: function prop really in that. So, um, she was odin
Speaker 1: athis second wife. That son of his named Hyran named
Speaker 1: heron that died at the same time he was assassinated
Speaker 1: was from his first wife. Zenobia bore him a second son,
Speaker 1: Babulthis between roughly two fifty eight and two sixty, so
Speaker 1: he would have been uh, somewhere between six and eight
Speaker 1: when his father was assassinated, so obviously not old enough
Speaker 1: to rule, which is why she took over as regent.
Speaker 1: So going back to the Enobia's rule, Uh, it turned
Speaker 1: out that she really took to ruling like a duck
Speaker 1: to water. She was a really smart woman. She was
Speaker 1: well educated, she was multi lingual, and she did not
Speaker 1: have any problems stepping up to command forces and make
Speaker 1: state decisions. She was not a woman who lacked for
Speaker 1: confidence in the least. So this actually brought up kind
Speaker 1: of a problem Claudius to who was not at all
Speaker 1: fond of Palmyra's independent standing, decided to take Zenobia's kingdom
Speaker 1: by force, and into sixty seven, Roman troops invaded Syria,
Speaker 1: and this plan didn't pan out so well for Claudius
Speaker 1: the Second. It's unclear why he thought the same forces
Speaker 1: that had so deftly turned away Persian attacks and save
Speaker 1: Rome would fall to the Roman army, which everyone had
Speaker 1: recognized was weaker than the army they had just defeated.
Speaker 1: But his troops were soundly defeated by the Paul Iron
Speaker 1: or Paul Irene. I've seen it written both ways, soldiers.
Speaker 1: The defeated emperor just decided that he would leave Zenobia
Speaker 1: to her reign. They kind of had a careful alliance. Uh.
Speaker 1: They were friendly, but not exactly tight for the rest
Speaker 1: of Claudius the Second sovereignty. So, as a new ruler
Speaker 1: who had just repelled Roman invasion to secure Palmira's independence,
Speaker 1: Zenobia's first priority was to shore up her position. So
Speaker 1: even though there were bigger events playing out involving Rome
Speaker 1: and its position in the world, her focus was on Palmyra. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you have to wonder if having watched her husband kind
Speaker 1: of side up with Rome and then really getting burnt
Speaker 1: in the deal because he got killed right after he
Speaker 1: saved them. If she if that didn't pretty significantly impact
Speaker 1: her approach to ruling and saying no, no, it's going
Speaker 1: to be us first. Uh. And she really in some accounts,
Speaker 1: some of the newer um biographies of her, really do
Speaker 1: focus on her more as like I'm trying to look
Speaker 1: out for my country and my people, and it's not
Speaker 1: so much about her being power hungry, which is how
Speaker 1: she's sometimes portrayed. But she first expanded Palmyras borders towards
Speaker 1: Mesopotamia to the east and then towards Asia Minor in
Speaker 1: the northwest. And during this time she wasn't really neglecting
Speaker 1: palmirase duties and its ties with Rome as part of
Speaker 1: their alliance. But like I said, she really did have
Speaker 1: a sense that she should be looking out for Palmyra
Speaker 1: first always. When Roman Emperor Claudius died, Zenobia became a
Speaker 1: little more aggressive and her expansion of the territory, although
Speaker 1: she also seems to have kept an effort to keep
Speaker 1: the peace with Claudius's successor are Ray Alien palm Iron
Speaker 1: coins of the period feature a Aelian which shows, you know,
Speaker 1: some kind of amicable agreement between the two of them,
Speaker 1: but amicable arrangement or not, things did not stay cordial.
Speaker 1: Arelium was really adverse to the idea that the Roman
Speaker 1: Empire was going to be divided by people like Zenobia,
Speaker 1: who were, you know, really creating their own stable power base,
Speaker 1: and Palmira was just getting too powerful for his comfort.
Speaker 1: So while Aralian was busy with other campaigns and couldn't
Speaker 1: really pay attention to what Zenobia was doing, in two
Speaker 1: seventy pal Marine troops advanced into Syria and Egypt, and
Speaker 1: Zenobia was able to expand her domain so that it
Speaker 1: stretched all the way from Egypt to Mesopotamia and from
Speaker 1: the hell Sponse to North Arabia. But in two seventy two,
Speaker 1: Arelian was then wrapping up other matters and he was
Speaker 1: ready to turn his attention to the Palmyra issue. And
Speaker 1: as he advanced towards her troops near Antioch, some of
Speaker 1: her Roman and Greek troops actually deserted, and as a consequence,
Speaker 1: she suffered a terrible defeat. But some things only got
Speaker 1: worse when her troops encountered the Imperial Army again in
Speaker 1: a Mesa, where she was once again defeated. So unlike before,
Speaker 1: when she had pretty soundly taken care of things, her
Speaker 1: troops were starting to break up at the same time
Speaker 1: that Rome's troops were really rallying and getting more powerful
Speaker 1: and more organized under a Relian. This reminds me of
Speaker 1: a board game that I like to play called Small World,
Speaker 1: in which your goal is to take more territory. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it gets to a point where you cannot defend
Speaker 1: the territory to examine more and you start to decline.
Speaker 1: And that is what happened. Zenobia fell back to Palmyra,
Speaker 1: but Aurelian was right on her heels, and it would
Speaker 1: seem like he was about to just strike the killing blow,
Speaker 1: but all of this campaign had really taken a toll
Speaker 1: on him and his troops, and a Relian at this
Speaker 1: point actually offered Zenobia a deal. But in the deal,
Speaker 1: she would have to surrender, and she was frankly having
Speaker 1: none of that. Uh. Any military strategists would say that
Speaker 1: this was a really foolish response on her part. She
Speaker 1: was in terrible trouble already, she'd had two big defeats,
Speaker 1: and she kind of stirred the pot because she was
Speaker 1: a little bit of a staff pants. So here's the
Speaker 1: bulk of the letter that was sent to Zenobia by Aralian,
Speaker 1: as printed in William Wright's book on Account of Palmyra
Speaker 1: and Zenobia. And this was claimed to be preserved by
Speaker 1: Flavius of Episcus as part of the Historia Augusta. And
Speaker 1: this is Aralian's note. You ought to do that of
Speaker 1: your own accord, which is commanded by my letters. I
Speaker 1: charge you to surrender on your lives being spared, and you,
Speaker 1: o Zenobia, may pass your life in some spot where
Speaker 1: I shall place you in pursuance of the distinguished sentence
Speaker 1: of the Senate. Your gems are silver, gold, silk, horses,
Speaker 1: camels being given up to the Roman treasury. The laws
Speaker 1: and institutions of the palm Irons shall be respected. So
Speaker 1: he's basically saying, you'll have to give us everything, but
Speaker 1: I'm gonna set you up in a nice house. You'll
Speaker 1: be fine, but you will be surrendered. And Zenobia's response
Speaker 1: was basically nope. Here is her reply. No one as
Speaker 1: yet except THEE, has dared to ask what thou demandest.
Speaker 1: Whatever is to be achieved by war must be sought
Speaker 1: by valor. Thou askest me to surrender, as if thou
Speaker 1: wert ignorant that Queen Cleopatra chose rather to perish than
Speaker 1: to survive her dignity. The Persian auxiliaries whom we await
Speaker 1: cannot be far off. The Saracens are on our side,
Speaker 1: as well as the Armenians. The Syrian robbers O Aurelian
Speaker 1: have conquered your army. What then if that band which
Speaker 1: we expect on all sides shall come, you will then
Speaker 1: lay aside the superciliousness with which you now demand my surrender,
Speaker 1: as if you were victor on every side. Yeah, she
Speaker 1: didn't really have any interest in bending to his will. Obviously.
Speaker 1: I have to wonder how much of this is um
Speaker 1: has been made more floral and it's in its verbiage
Speaker 1: than the original, But we don't know. This is the
Speaker 1: one historical piece of well, and you know we we talked.
Speaker 1: We had a similar situation in our episode about Boudice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that she has the big speech, has a big speech
Speaker 1: that was recorded by Roman people. Kind of Yeah, same situation, um,
Speaker 1: But regardless of whether that is a more florid version
Speaker 1: of her reply or not, she did not give up,
Speaker 1: and the siegeon Palmira continued and it was nothing short
Speaker 1: of catastrophic. The city was basically raised UH and Palmyra
Speaker 1: and its residents surrendered, but Zenobia really didn't. She actually
Speaker 1: took off on a camel, as you do. She was
Speaker 1: headed to Persia to beg for the help that she
Speaker 1: had thought was going to be coming and had kind
Speaker 1: of threatened Arelian with UH. And that plan did not
Speaker 1: work out so well, because she was actually UH pursued
Speaker 1: and captured by UH the Roman forces, and she was
Speaker 1: taken before Aralian for trial, and according to most accounts,
Speaker 1: right around this time, her son also died, so she
Speaker 1: was all that was left of the family kingdom that
Speaker 1: odin Athos had built. And while many Romans apparently demanded
Speaker 1: Zenobia's death, Aurelian instead wanted to make her a big
Speaker 1: feature of his victory parade, which was really her last
Speaker 1: historic appearance that is recorded consistently throughout many tellings. That's
Speaker 1: the last time she was seen UH. And in some
Speaker 1: versions of this story, he absolutely loaded her down with
Speaker 1: so many jewels and gold chains and pendance that she
Speaker 1: could barely walk UM, almost as if to say, fine,
Speaker 1: you want to keep all your stuff, here's how you
Speaker 1: do it. We're gonna put it all on you and
Speaker 1: make you walk in the parade so I can show
Speaker 1: you how ridiculous you are and all of Rome will
Speaker 1: see it. It's kind of a cruel and interesting way
Speaker 1: to punish a person. Yeah. Uh. There are some accounts
Speaker 1: that suggest her son was in the parade, which would
Speaker 1: say he did not die, but more favored the idea
Speaker 1: that he was killed around this time. So at the
Speaker 1: end of Zenobia's life, things are a little cloudy when
Speaker 1: it comes to details, and there are lots of conflicting
Speaker 1: accounts of exactly what happened. In some of the stories,
Speaker 1: she commits suicide. In others, she's granted her freedom by
Speaker 1: Aralian and she lives out her life and a villa.
Speaker 1: The thing that she had not really wanted to have happened.
Speaker 1: Variation on the suicide story suggests that she starved to
Speaker 1: death on the trip to Rome and never actually appeared
Speaker 1: in the parade. Yeah, that she basically went on a
Speaker 1: hunger strike, she starved herself. Uh. And some accounts, though,
Speaker 1: even paint this picture of her living this really fab
Speaker 1: life in her villa, and that she married a Roman
Speaker 1: and she had daughters and they all lived as Romans
Speaker 1: and happily ever after a kind of version. Uh. Again,
Speaker 1: we don't really know. That seems a little far fetched
Speaker 1: to me, but it could have happened, I wasn't there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Some some historians like the pairs Zenobia with the Queen
Speaker 1: of Sheba as two examples of strong Arab queens, but
Speaker 1: Zenobia herself apparently preferred to be compared to Cleopatra. Some
Speaker 1: historians have suggested that this was kind of a point
Speaker 1: of pride with her because Cleopatra is more famous than
Speaker 1: the Queen of Sheba. H. So at times she may
Speaker 1: have even claimed to have been a descendant of Cleopatra,
Speaker 1: although the math on that is pretty shady. Yeah, like
Speaker 1: the math and her her claims of the lineage and
Speaker 1: how it would have worked don't really work out correctly.
Speaker 1: She is also sometimes compared to Budica, who we referenced
Speaker 1: a couple of times and we featured in a previous podcast. Uh.
Speaker 1: And as for her city, Palmira, it's been a UNESCO
Speaker 1: World Heritage Sites in nineteen eighty. It's pretty much abandoned
Speaker 1: at this point, and it's there's a little village I
Speaker 1: think nearby, but uh, there're still ruins that stand that
Speaker 1: we're somehow survived the the raising that happened under Aralian
Speaker 1: and I'm sure someone was rebuilt. But that's the scoop,
Speaker 1: A little bit more of a deeper dive on Zenobia
Speaker 1: and her mythic status and a relationship with with Rome. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't think we'll ever know the full true story
Speaker 1: at this point. Nope. The longer the years go on,
Speaker 1: the less the information becomes reliable. Well, and even if
Speaker 1: we find, uh, you know, unearthed from somewhere more accounts
Speaker 1: of her life, in all likelihoods, they would just add
Speaker 1: more contradictions anything, they would be new and exciting version,
Speaker 1: exciting contradictions to the story that already hasn't many contradictions. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is the peril of any ancient story. In ancient history,
Speaker 1: we can't always trust the accounts, Nope, And the trustworthy
Speaker 1: ones are often really brief, So we put it together.
Speaker 1: I believe you also have some listener mails. I do.
Speaker 1: I have two pieces of mail, both about our Haunted
Speaker 1: Mansion podcast. Uh. The first is from our listener Jesse,
Speaker 1: and she says, I listened to both parts of your
Speaker 1: podcast on the hand and Haunted Mansion while I was
Speaker 1: at work last week and loved it so much that
Speaker 1: my husband and I listened to it again on our
Speaker 1: way through aut Disney World last Sunday, and I'm wondering
Speaker 1: if she wasn't there at the same time I was. Uh.
Speaker 1: Finally got us in the spirit no pen intended, and
Speaker 1: we went on the Haunted Mansion first. That we live
Speaker 1: in Florida now, I grew up in southern California and
Speaker 1: my family always had annual passes to Disneyland. We would
Speaker 1: go on all of the rides repeatedly, of course, and
Speaker 1: this included the Haunted Mansion. Since we were there so frequently,
Speaker 1: we got to know a lot of the cast members,
Speaker 1: and one of the stories they were fond of telling
Speaker 1: us was that there was a little table in the
Speaker 1: seance room that was often moved by actual spirits during
Speaker 1: the hours when the park was closed. I have many
Speaker 1: happy memories of riding the Haunted Mansion and checking to
Speaker 1: see what side of the room the table would be
Speaker 1: on that day. Sure enough, sometimes it was on the
Speaker 1: left side, and sometimes it was on the right. Whether
Speaker 1: or not this was evidence of an actual mischievous spirit
Speaker 1: or just a bit of extra Disney magic sprinkled on
Speaker 1: by cast members isn't for debate. We love the podcast,
Speaker 1: keep up the good work. So I just love that
Speaker 1: because it is one of those uh Disney magic things
Speaker 1: where no cast member, We'll tell you one way and
Speaker 1: the other I tell you probably spirit. I love it.
Speaker 1: And then we got another great email from Jeff who
Speaker 1: is the webmaster at JOm buggies dot com that I
Speaker 1: actually referenced in our podcast. He says, Hi, Tracy and Holly,
Speaker 1: great episode on the Haunted Mansion a personal passion of mine.
Speaker 1: One thing I thought i'd point out in case it
Speaker 1: might matter to you, and of course it does, Jeff. Uh,
Speaker 1: the Evergreen House you mentioned is not actually any reference
Speaker 1: for the architectural look of disney Lands Pounded mansion that
Speaker 1: was debunked a few years ago by a couple of
Speaker 1: Disney historians and salutes and my website played a part,
Speaker 1: and Jason Surrell even noted the new information in the
Speaker 1: revised edition of his book that came out to a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago. The Winchester House and also Hurst Castle,
Speaker 1: by the way, we're studied by uh W E D
Speaker 1: primarily in terms of how they handled group tours. Ken
Speaker 1: Anderson actually just copied right down to the perspective. A
Speaker 1: photo of another house in Baltimore called the Shipley Lie
Speaker 1: Decker House that he found it in a book of
Speaker 1: Victorian arc that was in the W. E. D Library. Uh.
Speaker 1: And he says if the W. E. D imagineers did
Speaker 1: visit the Evergreen House in Baltimore, I'm guessing it was
Speaker 1: simply to research the Shipley Lie Decker House, since the
Speaker 1: Evergreen House is part of Johns Hopkins University. But the
Speaker 1: Shipley Lie Decker House is very clearly the beginning and
Speaker 1: end of the architectural inspiration for Walt's Hana Mansion at Disneyland.
Speaker 1: I'll attach a side by side image. But I love
Speaker 1: the episode. I'm looking forward to part two, and this
Speaker 1: gave me an awesome excuse to buy the updated version
Speaker 1: of the book when I was in Disney World yesterday.
Speaker 1: I just got back. Uh. And he is absolutely correct
Speaker 1: that is mentioned in the update. So thank you Jeff
Speaker 1: for correcting that, because of course we care. That's cool stuff.
Speaker 1: I want to visit all those houses that were part
Speaker 1: of the I mean, I've been to a couple, but
Speaker 1: that would be a fun tour, like the inspiration for Disneylands.
Speaker 1: Want imagine tour of weird and wonderful mention. Let's do that,
Speaker 1: Okay for the podcast, uh, So, thank you to both
Speaker 1: of you for your funny emails. Keep those coming. If
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