Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how
Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Katie Lambert and I'm Sarah Dowdy and starting this
Speaker 1: one on a bit of a personal note. When I
Speaker 1: was a little kid, I really liked learning the stories
Speaker 1: of Catholic saints, especially the female saints, and my favorite
Speaker 1: was Tackla, who I chose as my my confirmation name.
Speaker 1: They tried to kill her multiple times, but she simply
Speaker 1: refused to die. But one story I had never heard
Speaker 1: was that of a female pope that I would have
Speaker 1: if I had grown up in the Middle Ages. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the story of this woman pope popped up near the
Speaker 1: end of the thirteenth century, although her time of rule
Speaker 1: was said to be much earlier, probably the eight hundreds.
Speaker 1: She's supposed to be German born but English lineage, and
Speaker 1: that sums up most of the details that we know
Speaker 1: about her. And there are many many variations on this story,
Speaker 1: but we're going to give you the basics. So when Joan,
Speaker 1: who is also known as Agnes Gilberta and several other names,
Speaker 1: was a young woman, she fell in love and the
Speaker 1: man she loved was a scholar wanting to be with him,
Speaker 1: she followed him to Athens, but she was a woman,
Speaker 1: so she couldn't be in this rarefied atmosphere of learning
Speaker 1: in this Benedictine monastery, And in a story worthy of Shakespeare,
Speaker 1: she dressed herself as a man, moving up through the
Speaker 1: ranks at this monastery because she was just so brilliant.
Speaker 1: And eventually she reached Rome and the highest position of
Speaker 1: all in the Roman Church, pope, and supposedly she was
Speaker 1: pope for two years. And then this shocking scene happens
Speaker 1: during a religious procession from St. Peter's Basilica. She gives
Speaker 1: birth while on a horse. What is with the horse?
Speaker 1: D I don't know. They keep popping up. So she's
Speaker 1: a sinner, she's a liar, and the pope, which makes
Speaker 1: it so much more embarrassing. She met her demise in
Speaker 1: one of two ways. She was either sent to a
Speaker 1: convent or the Romans dragged her behind the horse until
Speaker 1: she died and stoned her. And perhaps that baby lived,
Speaker 1: perhaps he did not, but if he did, he became
Speaker 1: a bishop. So here's the basic story. Again, there are
Speaker 1: a lot of variations on it. It's pretty crazy, isn't it. Well,
Speaker 1: and whether you believe it or not, people during the
Speaker 1: Middle Ages definitely did, and they were encouraged to believe
Speaker 1: it by the church. This was considered a very good
Speaker 1: example of why women needed to remain subordinate two men. Clearly,
Speaker 1: she was unfit to be the head of the Roman Church.
Speaker 1: She couldn't even get through a procession without the natural
Speaker 1: realities of a one woman's body taking out a baby.
Speaker 1: On silly women, they have no control. And soon these
Speaker 1: rumors were everywhere about new popes having to be checked
Speaker 1: for male genitalia by lower ranking clergy. So posedly this
Speaker 1: this new papal candidate would sit on a special chair
Speaker 1: with a hole cut in it, and a deacon or
Speaker 1: cardinal would reach down and checked to make sure what
Speaker 1: should be there was there. So we don't have any
Speaker 1: real evidence that this ritual was real. Our our eyewitness
Speaker 1: accounts aren't eyewitnesses at all. In the chair that really
Speaker 1: was a chair which chasm was probably just used for
Speaker 1: an elaborate ritual to enthrone the pope, not to check
Speaker 1: him out. But the most important point here is that
Speaker 1: people believe this, so regardless of what we know now,
Speaker 1: people in the Middle Ages did believe all of this.
Speaker 1: That's that's quite the Catholic ritual right there. Jokesters at
Speaker 1: the time made the point that since so many of
Speaker 1: the popes had children, it was probably pretty easy to
Speaker 1: figure out which ones were guys and which ones, And
Speaker 1: in the sixteenth century it was suggested that all popes
Speaker 1: should have beards. That way you could be sure the
Speaker 1: pope was an end to which I say, women with
Speaker 1: a hormonal imbalance can have beards, or if they have hyperdricosis.
Speaker 1: It's science. This is the health editor Katie coming through.
Speaker 1: So also in the sixteenth century, the Reformation began, and
Speaker 1: then the church position changes. It changes very dramatically because
Speaker 1: the Protestants are starting to use Pope Joan as an
Speaker 1: anti Catholic propaganda piece to point out that there's corruption
Speaker 1: in the church, major corruption and problems with its hierarchy.
Speaker 1: If something this dastard lya could happen, And so the
Speaker 1: Catholic Church doesn't about face and claim that, oh, I
Speaker 1: hope Joan never really existed at all. Guys, it's just
Speaker 1: a story, perhaps a symbolic one to to teach people
Speaker 1: their lessons. But you can't claim a story is true
Speaker 1: just because it's popular. But how about now, now that
Speaker 1: we've moved along from this, this strong belief is conviction
Speaker 1: in the Middle Ages, and then are about face and
Speaker 1: the Reformation. We are in it the year twenty ten.
Speaker 1: So we have two sides, and we'll start with the first.
Speaker 1: There was no Pope Joane. So the church position as
Speaker 1: that as far as papal lineage goes, it's all been
Speaker 1: men all the way back to St. Peter. She's nowhere
Speaker 1: in the official papal history because there isn't a reason
Speaker 1: for her to be there. She didn't exist. And they
Speaker 1: make the point that of all people who would who
Speaker 1: would know it would be the Church. They like, we
Speaker 1: keep a pretty big library. Well exactly, they like having
Speaker 1: their records, so if anybody knows, it's going to be dumb.
Speaker 1: The other point denying her existence is that the Catholic
Speaker 1: Church doesn't deny the existence of bad pope. So, oh,
Speaker 1: John the twelfth, who is who's quite the center. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So they're essentially saying, if if we admit to popes
Speaker 1: who murdered and tortured and fathered loads of illegitimate children,
Speaker 1: don't you think we'd admit to a female pope. Another
Speaker 1: strong point is that there isn't a single story about
Speaker 1: her from her own century. It's not until four hundred
Speaker 1: years later that any of these pop up. And doesn't
Speaker 1: that strike you as a little bit odd? Yes, four
Speaker 1: hundred years in suddenly a historical figure pops up in
Speaker 1: the books. It's it's definitely strange and suspicious. And she
Speaker 1: was supposedly pope between Leo the fourth and Benedict the third,
Speaker 1: but according to church records, that would have made her
Speaker 1: pope only for a few weeks, which seems a bit
Speaker 1: ridiculous about how long the ceremony takes. Fancy investiture, and
Speaker 1: another church position it was made up by the Protestants
Speaker 1: after the Reformation because they hate the Catholic Church, And
Speaker 1: this is definitely not true. We've already disproved this one.
Speaker 1: The story was around long before the Reformation began. So
Speaker 1: then we have our other side. There was too a
Speaker 1: Pope Jones. So our first point, why are there all
Speaker 1: of these stories about her? If she didn't exist, there
Speaker 1: must be someone this was based on. It couldn't have
Speaker 1: been made up just out of thin air. Or why
Speaker 1: did the church encouraged belief in it for so long?
Speaker 1: And everyone at the time accepted it. Surely that says something. Yeah, Katy,
Speaker 1: I think you mentioned a writer who said, if there's smoke,
Speaker 1: there's fire, and that's that's something to latch onto. But
Speaker 1: another point is that there aren't any other stories about
Speaker 1: her from her own time because the Church erased them
Speaker 1: in the seventeenth century when the Protestants started using her
Speaker 1: as anti Catholic propaganda um. And in the fifteenth century
Speaker 1: there was a bust of her, supposedly in the Siena Cathedral.
Speaker 1: The face was later changed to make it into someone else,
Speaker 1: So why would the church do that unless they were
Speaker 1: perhaps trying to hide her existence. Also in the fifteenth century,
Speaker 1: a heretic said in his trial, many times have the
Speaker 1: popes fallen into sin and error? For instance, when Joan
Speaker 1: was elected pope who was a woman, not a single
Speaker 1: person present contradicted him and it was all clergy. So
Speaker 1: I have to admit that's a strong point in their favor.
Speaker 1: And going back to the lack of in for nation
Speaker 1: about her, there aren't really not many records from her
Speaker 1: time anyways. The ninth century is not known for detailed
Speaker 1: record keeping, and we barely even have any information about
Speaker 1: any of the popes, So we can't say that in
Speaker 1: that little bit of time between Leo the fourth and
Speaker 1: Benedict to the third, there's conclusive evidence that she didn't
Speaker 1: exist or didn't reign between them, right or since there
Speaker 1: were bad records, who even knows if that was a
Speaker 1: few weeks. It could have been the two years and
Speaker 1: something that everyone's been saying in the first place. And
Speaker 1: you know, is it so implausible that a woman could
Speaker 1: disguise herself as a man and do a man's job.
Speaker 1: Maybe not the birth of the horse, Maybe not that part.
Speaker 1: So we've got our two sides, are point and our counterpoint.
Speaker 1: I do have to say I don't think there was
Speaker 1: a Pope joan Um, but there's another way you could
Speaker 1: interpret it. Perhaps there have been other female figures in
Speaker 1: the church whose stories were entangled with hers. Pope Joan
Speaker 1: is said to be on the High Priest Discard and
Speaker 1: some tarot decks, but it may actually be a woman
Speaker 1: named Guglielma who's also known as the Heretic Saint, and
Speaker 1: she's not really a saint, but she's a thirteenth century
Speaker 1: religious woman who did inspire a saint cult devoted to her,
Speaker 1: which is something that still happens today. I learned recently
Speaker 1: the Narco so some of her followers are later burned
Speaker 1: at the stake, and according to an article from Church
Speaker 1: history by Mona Alice Gene Newman, inquisitors tour apart her tomb,
Speaker 1: burned her bones and scattered her ashes, and of course
Speaker 1: erased every document that had to do with her life.
Speaker 1: So she's she's a person of interest at least. And
Speaker 1: there are certainly women who have exerted considerable influence over
Speaker 1: popes too much for the liking of many, and other
Speaker 1: women who have inspired great devotion. And perhaps there wasn't
Speaker 1: a pope Jane, but there was a woman who was
Speaker 1: high ranking in the church and that story turned into
Speaker 1: something else. So what relevance does that have for us today?
Speaker 1: Of course, the role of women in the church is
Speaker 1: still complicated. Yeah, the church today maintains that women are
Speaker 1: of equal value as men, but they're very different and
Speaker 1: therefore they're suited to different roles. And by encouraging women
Speaker 1: to fulfill the role that nature and God has intended
Speaker 1: for them, which is motherhood, they're honoring woman's unique gifts.
Speaker 1: And that's why women can't be ordained priests much less
Speaker 1: be pope. Right, and I'm sure you're all familiar with
Speaker 1: a critics response to that if you've opened in your
Speaker 1: favorite open a newspaper. And it's not our place to
Speaker 1: voice any opinion on the matter, but I think we
Speaker 1: can confidently say that a female pope today would not
Speaker 1: have to give birth on a horse, and also that
Speaker 1: Pope Joan might make a really good Halloween costume, if
Speaker 1: you don't mind explaining who you are all night. Yes,
Speaker 1: speak of Halloween costumes, We've gotten some responses after our
Speaker 1: Egyptian episodes. A few people want to be a Mama
Speaker 1: Luke for Halloween, which I think sounds like a great costume,
Speaker 1: especially if you get that jeweled sword. I'm tentatively planning
Speaker 1: on being a Cannibal queen, but that has absolutely nothing
Speaker 1: to do with any History episode we've ever done. Unless
Speaker 1: I can historical respend us your your recommendation, Cannibal Queen.
Speaker 1: It is interesting that this story has lasted for so long.
Speaker 1: We've gotten so many emails requesting the Pope Jones story,
Speaker 1: and I'd like to hear about why you think it's endured,
Speaker 1: So email us at History Podcast at how Stuff Works
Speaker 1: dot com and let us know your opinions. And if
Speaker 1: you have another favorite antipope you'd like us to talk
Speaker 1: about again, send us an email. And speaking of email,
Speaker 1: we have some listener emails for today, So our email
Speaker 1: today it's from Virginia. And we were actually fortunate enough
Speaker 1: to do an a view with Virginia just the other day.
Speaker 1: She hosts Inside the Podcasting Studio as well as Tutor Talk,
Speaker 1: and we like her. We talked to her about what
Speaker 1: it's like recording this podcast, but she also emailed us
Speaker 1: regarding our five Stars of the wild West and our
Speaker 1: question about what exactly bulldogging was and what the modern
Speaker 1: incarnation of it. It has nothing to do with U.
Speaker 1: D A. In case my fellow bulldogs were confused, we
Speaker 1: were just growing in some school spirit there. So Virginia
Speaker 1: wrote us, as a Texan who has attended many a rodeo,
Speaker 1: I believe I can answer your question about the modern
Speaker 1: incarnation of bulldogging. The one that is probably most like
Speaker 1: it now is called steer wrestling. A cowboy starts on
Speaker 1: a horse in the starting box. The steer is also
Speaker 1: in the starting box right next to him. When the
Speaker 1: steers released, the cowboy must essentially chase it, jump off
Speaker 1: the horse, and wrestle the stair to the ground. In
Speaker 1: order for the clock to stop, the steer has to
Speaker 1: fall over at least on its side, if not on
Speaker 1: its back. The cowboy with the best time wins. If
Speaker 1: the cowboy breaks the barrier quote of the starting box,
Speaker 1: essentially the same as jumping the gun and racing, he
Speaker 1: gets a ten second penalty. And she described a few
Speaker 1: other similar forms of steer wrestling, which gave me the
Speaker 1: strong desire to attend a rodeo. See I decided I
Speaker 1: was not meant to be a rodeo queen or a
Speaker 1: rodeo attendee, but I think you can go to one
Speaker 1: maybe in Katasaw. I remember seeing ads. I did not
Speaker 1: want to attend bull fighting now after this Spanish incident
Speaker 1: where the bull broke up into the stands and trampled
Speaker 1: a bunch of people. So um, I don't know, Maybe
Speaker 1: I'll change my mind if I if I watched that
Speaker 1: Spanish video. We'll talk about it later. So thank you
Speaker 1: Virginia for talking with us and for sending us your
Speaker 1: rodeo tips and if you have cool stuff to send
Speaker 1: us again. Our email is History Podcast at how stuff
Speaker 1: works dot com. We also have a Facebook fan page.
Speaker 1: You can catch up with what we're doing, and it's
Speaker 1: cool way for us to respond to you more quickly
Speaker 1: than we can an email. And as far as that goes,
Speaker 1: Brian with a y, I'm sorry I spelled your name
Speaker 1: with an eye. Our commenters are who very involved this week.
Speaker 1: We also have a Twitter feed at missed in History,
Speaker 1: and again it's a good way to keep up with
Speaker 1: what we're doing on a daily basis. I you know,
Speaker 1: can send out a survey on who wants to date
Speaker 1: a dragon lord and and give birth to eggs and yes,
Speaker 1: and that might have given you a clue. We were
Speaker 1: talking about the Chunk sisters. So we're gonna try to
Speaker 1: find a way here to wrap up dragon lords and
Speaker 1: tie them back into poet. I think you can do it.
Speaker 1: My connection is Pope Joan the Dark Ages. We have
Speaker 1: female pope. Maybe we have night and we have nights
Speaker 1: to fight dragons owen saints. You are nights might dragon saint. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is getting really good. So if you want to
Speaker 1: learn more about popes at least, you can check out
Speaker 1: our article how the papes He works By searching on
Speaker 1: the home page. It's www dot how stuff works dot com.
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