Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily and you're listening to stuff bomb
Speaker 1: never told you Now Today to round out our series
Speaker 1: on role overload, we are excited to be really drilling
Speaker 1: down into systemic solutions. Already, we've talked to experts like
Speaker 1: Tiffany Doofu about the challenges around working motherhood, Liz O'Donnell
Speaker 1: when it comes to being a working daughter, and Julia
Speaker 1: Carpenter all about how guess what single women want work
Speaker 1: life balance too. Today, I'm really excited to bust down
Speaker 1: this myth that roll overload is a personal problem. It's
Speaker 1: not a personal problem. You can't life hack your way
Speaker 1: out of burnout culture. Right. We exist in a country
Speaker 1: and in a workplace culture where the norm is overwhelmed. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: Perhaps it would be possible to break your own self
Speaker 1: out of burnout culture if you lived in a vacuum
Speaker 1: and didn't live in society. But I don't think any
Speaker 1: of us is in that situation. We live in the world,
Speaker 1: you work in workplaces. Everyone has a role in beating
Speaker 1: this thing together and figuring it out. I think so
Speaker 1: often on this show we're championing how a lot of
Speaker 1: these issues we bring up actually have policy and government solutions,
Speaker 1: and so I'm so excited to talk through what that
Speaker 1: can look like today exactly. And I have to point
Speaker 1: out my own bias here because I make a living
Speaker 1: at bossed Up talking through personal solutions to our burnout
Speaker 1: culture and really saying like, Okay, we operate in systems
Speaker 1: of oppression that without systemic change and policy change and
Speaker 1: organizational change will hold us back. But here's what you
Speaker 1: can do about it right now. I like to say,
Speaker 1: you know, we've got to play the cards we've been
Speaker 1: dealt while we change the game. But I never go
Speaker 1: into those conversations or even those sort of programs that
Speaker 1: I run, pretending like we can solve this on our own.
Speaker 1: It's one thing to say, play the cards you've been
Speaker 1: dealt while we changed the game. Today we're talking about
Speaker 1: what it looks like to change the game. We're talking
Speaker 1: with the one and only Bridget Shalty, author of a phenomenal,
Speaker 1: heady historical contextual book called Overwhelmed, Work, Love, and Play
Speaker 1: when No One Has the Time, which really brings her
Speaker 1: journalistic experience to light. When you read her book, you
Speaker 1: can tell it was written by a BOSS journalist, because
Speaker 1: Bridget Shalty was with the Washington Post for almost twenty years, um,
Speaker 1: and she really brings that kind of rigor to this
Speaker 1: particular book, which walks through a historical context of how
Speaker 1: the hell we got here as a country, how overwhelmed
Speaker 1: became the norm, and what we can do about it.
Speaker 1: And now she is the director of the Better Life
Speaker 1: Lab with our pal and Marie Slaughter, friend of the show,
Speaker 1: who were big fans of at New America, the Fink
Speaker 1: Tank here in d C. The Better Life Lab, which
Speaker 1: aims to find and highlight solutions to a better way
Speaker 1: of working, to better define gender equity to include both
Speaker 1: the advancement of women and the changing role of men,
Speaker 1: and to pursue policy solutions that better fit the way
Speaker 1: people and families work and live to enable all people
Speaker 1: to thrive. I love that so much because it doesn't
Speaker 1: just pigeonhold this as a women's issue exactly. Really highlights
Speaker 1: the fact that all of us, men, women, and everyone
Speaker 1: in between has a role to play, as do bosses, governments, policymakers, advocates.
Speaker 1: We're all this together, exactly. I'm a huge fan of
Speaker 1: this context that Amory Slaughter really introduced in her book
Speaker 1: Unfinished Business, in which she talks about caregiving and breadwinning
Speaker 1: as equally important components that make our society work. So
Speaker 1: how do we deal with that? In the Better Life
Speaker 1: Lab led by Brigitialty, another accomplished, amazing journalist author overall
Speaker 1: badass like, they've brought these two powerhouses together to come
Speaker 1: up with real policy solutions. And we're so honored to
Speaker 1: have you joining us here today, Bridget thank you so
Speaker 1: much for being here. Yeah, I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me so. I first came
Speaker 1: across your work with the fabulous New York Times bestseller
Speaker 1: book of yours, Overwhelmed Work, Love and Play When no
Speaker 1: one has the time, and in it I really appreciated
Speaker 1: the historical context you gave into how we got to
Speaker 1: where we are as this hyper connected, always on, overwhelmed
Speaker 1: work culture that feels very American American exceptionalism in the
Speaker 1: least awesome way. My question for you is how unique
Speaker 1: is the overwhelmed work culture here in the United States
Speaker 1: as opposed to elsewhere. Well, I think this is a
Speaker 1: really important question. You know, it's clearly talking about American exceptionalism.
Speaker 1: It is something that we pioneered here, this sense that
Speaker 1: the ideal worker always works and it's always on and
Speaker 1: always available, and that they're the best workers, and that
Speaker 1: burnout is almost a badge of honor, you know. And
Speaker 1: you see that in all sorts of fields that you know,
Speaker 1: I've written about the medical profession, and you know, you
Speaker 1: talk to some doctors and they'll be like, yeah, we
Speaker 1: have this iron man culture. You know that you're gonna
Speaker 1: gonna run a marathon and then you're gonna swim to
Speaker 1: a couple of miles and you're gonna bike forever. And
Speaker 1: and yet then you look at the flip side of that,
Speaker 1: and one out of every two doctors in the United
Speaker 1: States is showing at least one symptom of burnout. And
Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but that's not somebody I
Speaker 1: want to be like operating on me or you know,
Speaker 1: delivering a baby or doing brain surgery or trying to
Speaker 1: figure out what that tumor means. So there are some
Speaker 1: real costs to this sense of always being on and
Speaker 1: valuing that um I think, you know, when you look
Speaker 1: at other countries, it's interesting people say, oh, it's all technology.
Speaker 1: Technology has sped things up, and that's the really the culprit,
Speaker 1: and it really isn't because when you look at what
Speaker 1: happened in the United States, we'd be agan to really
Speaker 1: value and reward long hours in about the nineteen eighties,
Speaker 1: so that was long before we had iPhones, and you know,
Speaker 1: people were searching the internet at all times. So this
Speaker 1: is really a trend that started before technology, and technology
Speaker 1: has only increased and sort of added to it and
Speaker 1: and sort of sent us all into this kind of
Speaker 1: like overdrive spiral. But I think where we really need
Speaker 1: to look is that, uh, you know, the way that
Speaker 1: we work could be imported into other into other economies. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, America, the United States is very powerful culturally, um,
Speaker 1: you know, and this is sort of we like to
Speaker 1: say that, you know, we're the best, right the American
Speaker 1: economy and everybody should work like this American pirson Oh
Speaker 1: my god. Yeahs So, so, I mean there is some
Speaker 1: danger that, um, you know, that there's always on culture
Speaker 1: added to technology will be exported. There are certainly some
Speaker 1: signs of that in certain places. And yet on the
Speaker 1: flip side of that, what's very interesting is that when
Speaker 1: you look at productivity data, you know, again not just
Speaker 1: sort of like the nice to have soft squashy anecdotal stories,
Speaker 1: but really hard data about productivity. And you look at
Speaker 1: hourly productivity. So the United States, we work really long
Speaker 1: hours and that's where a lot of our productivity comes from.
Speaker 1: But if you look at productivity per hours work, so
Speaker 1: how good are each one of those hours? We're actually
Speaker 1: not in top In the top runs the countries that
Speaker 1: are most productive per hour our countries like Norway. And
Speaker 1: what's fascinating about that is that you know the countries
Speaker 1: that work even longer than the United States, the two
Speaker 1: countries that work longer hours, or Japan and South Korea,
Speaker 1: they are actually the least productive per hour of all
Speaker 1: the sort of all the advanced economies by different measures
Speaker 1: of I, L O and O, E, C D have
Speaker 1: measured to have done these internet measurements, and I think
Speaker 1: what's interesting in some of my reporting when you go
Speaker 1: to countries that are incredibly productive per hour and yet
Speaker 1: do not work long hours, it's because their culture is
Speaker 1: very different and they don't value long work hours in
Speaker 1: the way that we do in the United States. They
Speaker 1: don't see that as a badge of honor, and instead
Speaker 1: what's fascinating is they see it as a sign of
Speaker 1: inefficiency and the question is you know, you know, in
Speaker 1: the United States, if you say I worked so late
Speaker 1: last night, or I spent the night at my desk,
Speaker 1: I was answering emails to one in the morning, there's
Speaker 1: this sort of aren't I amazing? Aren't I dedicated? You know?
Speaker 1: And there's this kind of like pad on the back
Speaker 1: that you get. But if you if you make those
Speaker 1: kinds of comments and countries like Norway or Denmark or
Speaker 1: over some of the other places that are as productive
Speaker 1: per hours the United States, but work thirty seven point
Speaker 1: five hours a week, um, they'll say like, well, what's
Speaker 1: wrong with you? Why couldn't you get your work done
Speaker 1: on time? So the culture is very different. I wonder, Bridget,
Speaker 1: do you feel this is different for millennials at all,
Speaker 1: because this whole idea of working smarter not harder seems
Speaker 1: to be this like trope I see in millennial culture.
Speaker 1: See I almost think it's the opposite. I think that
Speaker 1: a lot of millennials, because we came up in times
Speaker 1: where you have to kind of struggle to find a job.
Speaker 1: I actually see a lot of people in my same
Speaker 1: age really giving too much of themselves to their work
Speaker 1: and kind of getting caught up in this culture of
Speaker 1: overwork and burnout, and I almost have seen the opposite
Speaker 1: where I think it's because we sort of had to
Speaker 1: find jobs in this tricky, you know climate. We say like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'll be on email at all times. Oh I'll you know,
Speaker 1: push myself, I'll never work from home, blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: because we feel like we have to. I think when
Speaker 1: it comes to millennials, folks who I see kind of
Speaker 1: being smarter and saying, no, only take a job where
Speaker 1: I can work remotely. I'll only take a job that's
Speaker 1: more flexible, those are the ones that I feel like
Speaker 1: are a lot happier. Yeah. I used to really chafe
Speaker 1: at what I felt were arbitrary standards for professor ftionalism,
Speaker 1: like being in the office at a certain hour and
Speaker 1: staying until a certain hour. I really rebelled as a
Speaker 1: young professional graduating into the recession, being held to these
Speaker 1: standards of just you know, this person next to me
Speaker 1: is rewarded just for being at their desk, despite the
Speaker 1: fact that I achieved everything he achieved today in the
Speaker 1: first hour of being present at work. And I really
Speaker 1: could not last in a workplace that was like that.
Speaker 1: I was so vehemently opposed to to presence over efficiency.
Speaker 1: Well along those lines, in terms of presence over performance,
Speaker 1: that really is what the American culture, the work culture
Speaker 1: values right now. And in a large part it's because
Speaker 1: it's really difficult. We have not figured out how to
Speaker 1: measure knowledge work. When is knowledge work good work? Um?
Speaker 1: You know, And that's something that um, you know, management
Speaker 1: consultants were warning about, you know, back in the seventies
Speaker 1: when they were you know, thinking about, oh, we're moving
Speaker 1: into this knowledge work culture. Well, what does that mean
Speaker 1: when you don't have a nine to five job or
Speaker 1: you don't have the whistle going off and you haven't
Speaker 1: hit your targets for a number of widgets. And it's
Speaker 1: something that you know, even as just a few years ago,
Speaker 1: there's a big study that said we haven't figured this
Speaker 1: out still. So because we don't know how to value
Speaker 1: and just knowledge work, when is it good enough? When
Speaker 1: are you done? Um? You know, then we we default
Speaker 1: to the old way of measuring good performance, which is
Speaker 1: simply being there being a butt in the chair. And
Speaker 1: so part of what's going on is that we're at
Speaker 1: this real pivot point where we've kind of got these
Speaker 1: clashing old and new cultures and it's it's really driving
Speaker 1: all of us crazy. And I would say it is
Speaker 1: also driving millennials crazy. So there's a couple of things
Speaker 1: about millennials that the surveys show that they really what
Speaker 1: they want in time for work that's great, but also
Speaker 1: and meaningful, but also time for their life. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not that unusual. It's exactly what Gen X has wanted.
Speaker 1: It's exactly what Baby boomers had wanted. The difference what
Speaker 1: the surveys shows. The difference is that millennials are willing
Speaker 1: to ask for it, and they're willing to walk away
Speaker 1: if they don't get it. So that's said, you know,
Speaker 1: so so there there are differences there in terms of
Speaker 1: of sort of an expectation, if you will, that work
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be nuts, that you can work smart.
Speaker 1: You know, that you don't have to just do what
Speaker 1: people have always done just because they've always done it,
Speaker 1: which I think is healthy. But at the same time
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right that, uh, there is a disconnect between
Speaker 1: the willingness to to walk away and the sort of
Speaker 1: you know, the belief in the importance of having work
Speaker 1: life balance and on the other hand, working in cultures
Speaker 1: and getting sucked into them and wanting to succeed and
Speaker 1: seeing that the only way to do it is to
Speaker 1: work like a maniac. So in some of the work
Speaker 1: that I've been doing, it's really clear and it's more
Speaker 1: painful to be a millennial who overworks because you're expected
Speaker 1: to be a slacker, and so you're working all of
Speaker 1: these crazy hours and really really living up to these
Speaker 1: ideal worker notions. Um, and you also feel like you're
Speaker 1: sort of betraying your own principles and your own beliefs.
Speaker 1: And uh So it's actually a very painful thing for
Speaker 1: many millennials, and they're really caught up in it, and
Speaker 1: I think it's um, hopefully out of that pain, something
Speaker 1: good will come. Well, that's something I found so fascinating
Speaker 1: that resonated throughout your piece for Fast Company called why
Speaker 1: your Best life Hats Still come up short. This idea
Speaker 1: that not only do we have these work products that
Speaker 1: are visible, right if your boss sends an all staff
Speaker 1: email at ten o'clock and you respond at ten o
Speaker 1: five at night, people can see that and they make
Speaker 1: conclusions about what kind of employee you are and how
Speaker 1: much you care about your job. As an employee. You
Speaker 1: naturally want to reflect your boss's you know, care about
Speaker 1: the job that you guys are doing together, and so
Speaker 1: you may feel obligated to respond to that email right away.
Speaker 1: But when you do, that actually sets up the cycle
Speaker 1: wherein you are now expect that that's the expectation that
Speaker 1: you are setting. And so it's just like what you said,
Speaker 1: it's this cultural thing where you become a cog in it.
Speaker 1: You get pulled into it, and you don't want to
Speaker 1: be that person who was saying, wait, this is dumb.
Speaker 1: We could be working better if we were all at home,
Speaker 1: or like, we could be working better if we didn't
Speaker 1: have ten meetings a day. We could be working better
Speaker 1: if we just got our work done during the day
Speaker 1: and didn't spend the evening time, you know, collaborating over
Speaker 1: emails and just you know, staying up at night. We
Speaker 1: could be working more efficiently. It doesn't actually feel like
Speaker 1: that is something that is rewarded. And I think it's
Speaker 1: because you know, you see the person who hits in
Speaker 1: on that email. You see the person whose butt is
Speaker 1: in the chair at seven thirty in the morning and
Speaker 1: it is there untill nine o'clock at night. Those are
Speaker 1: all the work products that are visible and concrete and
Speaker 1: tangible and the other things you might not see at all.
Speaker 1: So in Emily's example where she did all of the
Speaker 1: thing that her deskmate did, you know, from home, before
Speaker 1: she even got there or whatever, people can't see that.
Speaker 1: All they know is it's getting done. But people can
Speaker 1: see him sitting in his chair exactly well. And that
Speaker 1: was the funny thing that peace, you know, because it
Speaker 1: was sort of about, you know, really solving this as
Speaker 1: bigger than you. All the life hacks in the world,
Speaker 1: I mean, they're great life hacks, and you can be
Speaker 1: more productive, and there are certain things that you can do,
Speaker 1: but to answer this question, it is not all up
Speaker 1: to you. And I have to say I don't think
Speaker 1: this was one of the more popular pieces on Fast
Speaker 1: Company because everybody wants like the that they want the
Speaker 1: life pack and they want it to be easy, and
Speaker 1: it's not easy because we are we human beings are
Speaker 1: social creatures, and we are driven to conform to the
Speaker 1: social norm. And right now, you work in a place
Speaker 1: where the social norm is that it values over work.
Speaker 1: You know, you are just wired to want to fit
Speaker 1: in and want to to perform and and go sort
Speaker 1: of quote unquote above and beyond. And so that's why
Speaker 1: it's so important for leaders, middle managers and leaders to
Speaker 1: not only uh, you know, talk the talk, but walk
Speaker 1: the walk. And I have to be perfectly honest. I
Speaker 1: came from uh, you know, I've been I called myself
Speaker 1: a recovering workaholic. And you know, I was in daily
Speaker 1: newspapers for most of my career. And then when I
Speaker 1: left and I came to New America where I'm directing
Speaker 1: the Better Life lab right. Our whole job is to
Speaker 1: try to make work in life better for people. Um,
Speaker 1: And I was sending those emails late at night, and
Speaker 1: because I would have an idea, It's like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is a great idea. I want to share this with
Speaker 1: the team. This is so exciting. I need to get
Speaker 1: it out of my head. And I got to clear it.
Speaker 1: And then, you know, I was only thinking of myself.
Speaker 1: And what I was not realizing is that when I
Speaker 1: sent out that email, just as you described, I was
Speaker 1: actually creating stress and cognitive load on my team because
Speaker 1: they had to decide, Well, she says that we don't
Speaker 1: have to answer emails at night, but she's the boss,
Speaker 1: and well should we and we want to make sure
Speaker 1: that she thinks that we're doing a good job. And
Speaker 1: we all are dedicated and we're passionate about this too,
Speaker 1: and do I need to answer us? And even going
Speaker 1: through the anticipation of a was I gonna send an email?
Speaker 1: B did, they had to like spend time thinking about
Speaker 1: whether to respond to it. That takes up cognitive bandwidth,
Speaker 1: That actually takes you out of the moment. It puts
Speaker 1: your brain in this kind of vigilant mode. And there's
Speaker 1: actually research that shows that we are more stressed out
Speaker 1: by anticipating late night emails from our boss and actually
Speaker 1: getting them. And so I have to say I have
Speaker 1: a great team. And they took my laptop from me
Speaker 1: the next day and installed Boomerang, and they said, we
Speaker 1: understand you need to get these ideas out of your
Speaker 1: head because then you know, then your mind is clear,
Speaker 1: but don't send it to us. You know, when we
Speaker 1: want our minds to be thinking about something else. And
Speaker 1: so now I am trying. I try to be very careful,
Speaker 1: and I'm not perfect yet, you know, That's why I
Speaker 1: say I'm in the recovery mode. But now I tried,
Speaker 1: if I get something, I have an idea. I want
Speaker 1: to get it out of my head. I schedule it,
Speaker 1: I send it out, but I but I, you know,
Speaker 1: I get it out of my head, but I schedule
Speaker 1: it so out during work hours. Um. And I think
Speaker 1: that just even small little nudges like that can make
Speaker 1: a big difference, because now my team knows when they
Speaker 1: leave work they are really off, you know. And most
Speaker 1: of us are not firefighters. Most of us are not
Speaker 1: e er doctors, you know, most knowledge workers. The world
Speaker 1: is not going to fall apart, and nobody's going to
Speaker 1: die if we don't answer the email that evening. And
Speaker 1: yet we all have this kind of like breathless feeling
Speaker 1: that that somehow we're so important and our job is
Speaker 1: so amazing that we can't not do it. And yet
Speaker 1: once you once you start creating those boundaries, and once
Speaker 1: you start creating more space for other things in your life,
Speaker 1: the irony is your work actually gets better because you're fresher,
Speaker 1: because you're able to make more connections, because you're not
Speaker 1: so burned out and just constantly in this like powering
Speaker 1: through slogging mode like you know so many people are.
Speaker 1: I mean, it just blows my mind that the gallop
Speaker 1: polls every year show that, like Cluse, the of America,
Speaker 1: can workers say they're disengaged at work. You know, that
Speaker 1: is not the kind of workforce. So that's not the
Speaker 1: kind of human capital that's going to get you, you know,
Speaker 1: the latest and greatest and coolest innovation or efficiency. I'm
Speaker 1: so glad that you brought up the point about you
Speaker 1: like working in news. You know, I'm a former journalist
Speaker 1: and twenty four hour news cycle. Now I work in politics,
Speaker 1: and I think, just like you were saying, there's this
Speaker 1: temptation to believe, oh my god, if I don't answer
Speaker 1: this email right away, the world is gonna end, something's
Speaker 1: gonna happen, it's going to be a crisis. In reality,
Speaker 1: most times that's not the case. We've just internalized that
Speaker 1: that's the case. I almost feel like it's this weird
Speaker 1: kind of narcissism that we're so important, Heaven forbid we
Speaker 1: not be on email for five minutes. But I also
Speaker 1: know that working in journalism and working in media and
Speaker 1: working in politics, there are going to be times where
Speaker 1: there is legitimately a crisis where you have to get
Speaker 1: out of bed and answer that email. But not everything
Speaker 1: is that crisis. And so if it's comic kind of
Speaker 1: like that boy who Cried Wolf thing, where if we
Speaker 1: treat every email like it's urgent, if we treat everything
Speaker 1: like it's a it's an emergency that you have to
Speaker 1: answer right away, no matter what time it is when
Speaker 1: that critical thing does happen, where you need to be
Speaker 1: on all cylinders either A you're not gonna pick it
Speaker 1: seriously because everything is a crisis and when everything is
Speaker 1: a crisis, nothing's a crisis. Or be you're gonna be
Speaker 1: so tired having dealt with that last crisis that wasn't
Speaker 1: really a crisis that you're not going to be able
Speaker 1: to really be on all cylinders to actually deal with
Speaker 1: it in an efficient way. Yeah, that is true. That's true,
Speaker 1: so true. And I feel like this is such a
Speaker 1: meta conversation for me because I like you, Bridget, I
Speaker 1: love a good life hack, and you know, I obviously
Speaker 1: see the systemic forces at play, but I also, you know,
Speaker 1: play into millennials desire to advocate and ask for more
Speaker 1: and help them get the sustainability that they're craving in
Speaker 1: my line of work, but internally at boss Up, we
Speaker 1: onboard our staff members with a clear set of norms
Speaker 1: for when we expect work happening and when we expect
Speaker 1: work to not be happening. And I regularly have to
Speaker 1: tell my team members who are enthusiastic and excited. I
Speaker 1: just had a conversation with my staff member Emmy last Friday,
Speaker 1: who said, Okay, I'll get this draft to you over
Speaker 1: the weekend. I said, Emmy, no, you will not, and
Speaker 1: she went on a camping trip. I was like, do
Speaker 1: not get me a draft of this over the weekend.
Speaker 1: For us, what's really been helpful is deciphering between what
Speaker 1: is important and versus what is urgent, and really understanding
Speaker 1: those two differences. Yeah, that's really important. I think. The
Speaker 1: other thing to remember, um, you know, there's been really
Speaker 1: interesting research on productivity and you know, how how can
Speaker 1: you really push yourself? And just like you say, the
Speaker 1: research shows that you really can push yourself, you know,
Speaker 1: if you've got a deadline or there's some emergency, you know,
Speaker 1: but really for a short finite period of time, you know,
Speaker 1: for really no more than a couple of weeks, and
Speaker 1: then after that, your your performance really starts to degrade.
Speaker 1: And you know, over the over the course of maybe
Speaker 1: six weeks, you really would have been much better off
Speaker 1: if you just kept working at a reasonable pace. You know,
Speaker 1: it's six weeks, you know, you are so burned out
Speaker 1: that you've actually lost any of those productivity gains from
Speaker 1: from pushing yourself so hard for a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1: So there really is sort of a cliff you can
Speaker 1: fall off. So, yes, you can push yourself. There's always
Speaker 1: going to be some kind of emergency and you do,
Speaker 1: you know, and people will need to be all hands
Speaker 1: on deck, but it is not every single knife. Let's
Speaker 1: take a quick break and when we come back, let's
Speaker 1: continue the conversation around what companies and organizations can do
Speaker 1: to make life and work better and more efficient for
Speaker 1: all of us. We'll be right back after a quick
Speaker 1: word from our sponsors. And we're back, and we are
Speaker 1: sitting down with the incredible author, think tank director of
Speaker 1: the Better Life Lab at New America, Bridget Chulza. Bridget,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining as today. Oh it's great
Speaker 1: to be here. Thanks so much for having me. So
Speaker 1: we've been talking about what you've done as a boss,
Speaker 1: what I've done at my company, and what we as
Speaker 1: Americans really desire when it comes to sustainability and efficiency
Speaker 1: at work, whether you're a millennial or not. So what
Speaker 1: can these employers Because we know more and more employers
Speaker 1: are getting on board, at least in name, with this
Speaker 1: concept of sustainability and efficiency because we know, right, happier,
Speaker 1: healthier employees are better for the bottom line. So how
Speaker 1: can companies make roll overload easier for all of us? Well,
Speaker 1: I guess the first thing I would say is, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure that companies are really convinced, yeah, that having
Speaker 1: happier and healthier employees is better for the bottom line.
Speaker 1: There's plenty of reports that show that that's true. There's
Speaker 1: plenty of studies that show that having more women in
Speaker 1: leadership and management actually may to your you know, boost
Speaker 1: performance in the bottom line. And yet look at where
Speaker 1: we are. We're really stuck. We're stuck in people over working,
Speaker 1: we're stuck in women being kind of stuck and trapped
Speaker 1: in middle management, and only a few kind of you know,
Speaker 1: clawing their way to the top. So I think that
Speaker 1: it's really important just to to understand that while there
Speaker 1: is good data out there, I don't think it's really set,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think it's sunk in and that
Speaker 1: a big part of the reason why I've been doing
Speaker 1: a lot of work with some behavioral scientists and really
Speaker 1: trying to understand more human nature more. And you know,
Speaker 1: change is really hard for human beings. Uh, we have
Speaker 1: something called status quo bias. We're just because we're doing
Speaker 1: it and it's for familiar we tend to keep doing it.
Speaker 1: And I think that that, you know, it's it's so apparent.
Speaker 1: You can look at that and in so many different
Speaker 1: arenas and see that. So for workplaces, for organizations, for teams, Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, even for individual rules, it's really hard to
Speaker 1: break out of that status quo bias. Well, this is
Speaker 1: the way we've always done things, and this is the
Speaker 1: way we should keep doing them. You know, even in
Speaker 1: the face of really good data that you should have
Speaker 1: more women in leadership, that you should have better work
Speaker 1: life balance, you know that you will work better if
Speaker 1: you work smarter and you're not burning out all time.
Speaker 1: So I think one of the things to do for
Speaker 1: for leaders is to think about the status quo as
Speaker 1: just one of a number of options that so that
Speaker 1: you kind of move out of that, Well, this is
Speaker 1: the way we've always done it, and and so you
Speaker 1: almost think about it as scenario planning, it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: could keep doing it this way. And then when you
Speaker 1: when you start putting the status quo against other models,
Speaker 1: you begin to see all of the costs. You know,
Speaker 1: people say things like, oh, paid family, we can't do it,
Speaker 1: it's so expensive, it costs too much. And yet if
Speaker 1: you put the current reality is just one scenario, then
Speaker 1: what you have to do is start accounting for the
Speaker 1: costs of not doing it. Have to account predict costs
Speaker 1: of increased stress and attrition and turnover and you know,
Speaker 1: disengagement and unhappy is uh and all of the things
Speaker 1: that you don't account for now because this is just
Speaker 1: the way that we've all done stuff. So I think
Speaker 1: that's the first thing is to recognize that change is
Speaker 1: hard and that we do have the status quo bias,
Speaker 1: and so that we almost have to think are we
Speaker 1: have to design around that? And so so some of
Speaker 1: the things that that that we're suggesting companies do is
Speaker 1: really look at flexibility but adopt it as something that's
Speaker 1: a default for everyone, rather than think about it as
Speaker 1: an accommodation for a mother or a woman or a caregiver,
Speaker 1: because that just ends up creating such stigma and bias,
Speaker 1: and that's how you create the money track, and that
Speaker 1: when you realize that good work can be done, um,
Speaker 1: you know, based more on people's bio rhythms if you will, uh,
Speaker 1: that you create flexibility that does not require a reason,
Speaker 1: and that you open it up for men and women
Speaker 1: and it just becomes the way you work. That that
Speaker 1: goes a long way to creating systems that are fairer,
Speaker 1: creating lifestyles that are actually healthy, heer, and the creating
Speaker 1: work that's better. Uh, and also opening up possibility for
Speaker 1: much more gender equality, which is really stymied right now. Well,
Speaker 1: that was another aspect of your peace Profast company that
Speaker 1: I found so telling. This idea that oftentimes things like
Speaker 1: flexibility can become sort of gifts quote unquote that employers
Speaker 1: give to their employees, not something that actually makes everybody's
Speaker 1: job better and more efficient. This idea that oh, if
Speaker 1: your boss lets you work remotely, or it gives you
Speaker 1: more flexibility or you know, is more flexible with how
Speaker 1: you work best, they're doing you some kind of a favor.
Speaker 1: And I think it really is about cultural change, where
Speaker 1: we understand that we are as an organization, as a
Speaker 1: team going to make choices about how we work best.
Speaker 1: And I also think it's really telling that I completely
Speaker 1: agree with you from what you said before that I
Speaker 1: don't think all companies are moving towards this idea of
Speaker 1: happier employees makes makes for better work. It's interesting because
Speaker 1: I've worked in some of the most progressive, cutting edge
Speaker 1: organizations around, and they're still sort of caught up in
Speaker 1: this old school notion of what it means to be
Speaker 1: successful impolite. These are organizations that, for any other choice
Speaker 1: they make, it's a data driven choice. They look at evidence,
Speaker 1: they test things out. The worst thing you could say
Speaker 1: is we do this because we've always done it. That's
Speaker 1: like a no no to say in these organizations. Yet
Speaker 1: they will have that day and night when it comes
Speaker 1: to how they're planning a campaign, how they're rolling something
Speaker 1: out for a launch. When it comes to how they're
Speaker 1: working their own people and managing their own teams, it's well,
Speaker 1: what are we gonna do if the whole team isn't
Speaker 1: here for the meeting and people call in? Or how
Speaker 1: can we let people work remotely? How can we be
Speaker 1: flexible people. It's like this weird way where in there
Speaker 1: so forward thinking and data driven, an evidence based when
Speaker 1: it comes to how they're running their business, but when
Speaker 1: it comes to how they're running their teams, that all
Speaker 1: goes out the window. Yeah, that kind of ognitive dissonance
Speaker 1: I've heard of a lot, And I'm biased because I
Speaker 1: only work with companies that are coming to us because
Speaker 1: they are on board with this, at least philosophically, and
Speaker 1: want to know how to make it happen. So I
Speaker 1: don't know. I think tools like the New America's Better
Speaker 1: Work Toolkit that came out of the Better Life Lab
Speaker 1: are doing a great job of making the logical case
Speaker 1: for it, but like you said, Bridget, there needs to
Speaker 1: be an emotional case for it, or at least a
Speaker 1: financial case for diversity in leadership and sustainability in the workplace,
Speaker 1: or an organization being able to justify just what Bridget
Speaker 1: was saying, why it's worth what it's going to cost
Speaker 1: to not invest in those things. If you can make
Speaker 1: the case for why it's worth wasting money to not
Speaker 1: invest in these things that we know are more efficient
Speaker 1: and going to be more efficient for your organization, explain that, like,
Speaker 1: make that case, But I think you have a really
Speaker 1: hard time doing so well. I think the part of
Speaker 1: what makes this difficult is that it's a belief. It's
Speaker 1: not based on data, it's not based on anything other
Speaker 1: than like an ur a coll of faith. Well, I
Speaker 1: think that you know, the best workers are the ones
Speaker 1: that are most committed, and the way they show that
Speaker 1: is by always being here and always being on. So
Speaker 1: to tackle that it does require data, but it requires
Speaker 1: more than data, you know, it requires sort of redesigning things.
Speaker 1: It's um. When you talk to design thinkers, they'll say,
Speaker 1: sometimes it's easier to act your way into a new
Speaker 1: way of thinking than it is to think your way
Speaker 1: into a new way of acting. So part of what
Speaker 1: we did at the with the Better Work Toolkit, we
Speaker 1: were working on a project on the science of work,
Speaker 1: liass balance and health with the Robert with Johnson Foundation
Speaker 1: and Ideas forty two UM. There are nonprofit of behavioral
Speaker 1: scientists trying to use behavioral science to solve real world problems.
Speaker 1: And we're looking at work life conflict and overwork and
Speaker 1: trying to understand some of the behavioral science behind what
Speaker 1: drives it. And then how do you design solutions again,
Speaker 1: how do you kind of nudge people into acting into
Speaker 1: a new way which then might lead to a new
Speaker 1: way of thinking rather than trying to convince or persuade
Speaker 1: people and then trying to get them to change some
Speaker 1: of their behaviors. So one of the things that we've done,
Speaker 1: we've gone into UM started with nonprofits and Ideas forty
Speaker 1: two went in and did some kind of on the
Speaker 1: ground UM UM interviewing if you will, And I've been
Speaker 1: doing UM kind of the storytelling partner and so I've
Speaker 1: been doing a lot of reporting alongside that. And one
Speaker 1: of the things that we really focused on is like, well,
Speaker 1: what are the pain points at at work organizations and
Speaker 1: really trying to get a handle of like what's kind
Speaker 1: of where what's driving some of that overwork and what
Speaker 1: are people really unhappy about? And that's where we came
Speaker 1: up with sort of the three things that a lot
Speaker 1: of companies and teams came up with to try to
Speaker 1: to try to solve some of the questions around changing
Speaker 1: family structure and that how we didn't have the American
Speaker 1: wife at home anymore? And how did you how would
Speaker 1: the workplace respond to UM, you know, kind of changing
Speaker 1: family structure and changing workforce. And they came up with
Speaker 1: a lot of let's be more flexible, let's give workers
Speaker 1: more autonomy, and then we'll collaborate more. You technology has
Speaker 1: brought so much more collaboration, and yet what we found
Speaker 1: is that there these are kind of like new systems,
Speaker 1: but they've been layered onto legacy systems. So you have
Speaker 1: the new system of email, but it's layered onto this
Speaker 1: legacy system of meetings. And so again when I was
Speaker 1: talking about being at this pivot point, we are at
Speaker 1: this kind of crashing of old and new, and that's
Speaker 1: part of what we really what we really uncover is,
Speaker 1: um you know, how do you then just make an
Speaker 1: argument based purely on what you're experiencing? Well, email overload,
Speaker 1: Well what can you do about it? Well, how about
Speaker 1: you try some of these judges. How about you try
Speaker 1: to make it more difficult to send an email after hours?
Speaker 1: You know, maybe you have like you know, or you
Speaker 1: set a boomerang so you schedule them, you know, or
Speaker 1: you or you kind of like create more um you know,
Speaker 1: you create more systems where it's easier to push people
Speaker 1: to take vacation. And that becomes part of the planning
Speaker 1: early on in the year January, in February, pick your
Speaker 1: time and then you can always swap it. But a
Speaker 1: lot of the problem is, you know, because you've got
Speaker 1: these work cultures where your value all this overwork, you
Speaker 1: don't schedule your vacation and then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: you know, your calendar fills up, and then it's June
Speaker 1: and you better take your vacation, and your family is
Speaker 1: on your case and why aren't you why you know?
Speaker 1: And then you look at your calendar You're like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, there's no way I can schedule it. What
Speaker 1: if you design something where you scheduled it in February
Speaker 1: when all that time in July and August is totally white,
Speaker 1: it's white space. And so and then once you start
Speaker 1: taking vacation and then you plan for it and you've
Speaker 1: anticipated it, and you set up work systems where you
Speaker 1: know it and everybody else can you know, they're they're
Speaker 1: ready for you to be gone, and so you don't
Speaker 1: have to worry about a last minute kind of panic. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then once you create that space for taking vacation,
Speaker 1: you know, part of the reason why people don't and
Speaker 1: they don't unplug is that we don't have a lot
Speaker 1: of practice doing it, and so that we've we've lost.
Speaker 1: We decided we can't remember why that time is important.
Speaker 1: And so if you create those kind of systems that
Speaker 1: make it more likely you'll be able to unploy in
Speaker 1: the evening, or that you'll take a weekend off, or
Speaker 1: you'll actually have vacation so that you can truly recharge
Speaker 1: and experience that time. The better you know, the more
Speaker 1: you do it, the more you realize how critical it
Speaker 1: is for not only joy but also doing for doing
Speaker 1: good work. The more you practice, you'll have I gotta
Speaker 1: jump in here because Bridget over here, Bridget Todd has
Speaker 1: this look on her face that makes me think that
Speaker 1: are you feeling personally called in on this other front?
Speaker 1: I feel a little attached right now. I'm not gonna lie, Bridget.
Speaker 1: Something to know about me is that I have not
Speaker 1: taken a vacation, maybe since I wasn't maybe high school
Speaker 1: or honestly it might have been like a college spring
Speaker 1: break trip. Uh. And we've had a little on air
Speaker 1: conversation about operation vacation. Vacation bridget Todd edition, I do.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's everything you said and so
Speaker 1: so so much more. I think it's part of the
Speaker 1: American sort of fetishization of hustle and drive and look
Speaker 1: at me, aren't I a martyr? That I never take
Speaker 1: vacation and I never unplugged and blah blah blah. And
Speaker 1: I think it's exactly what you said. When you feel
Speaker 1: when everything feels scattered and you know you're kind of
Speaker 1: always in triage mode, always just trying to make it
Speaker 1: to the next day. You can't look at your calendar
Speaker 1: and say, you know, this is the month I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do it. That seems so unrealistic, right, Like the idea
Speaker 1: that I could look at my calendar and say, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna have room to go to Costa Rica in January.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to make it to tomorrow, right, And so
Speaker 1: I think what you described is accurate. But I also
Speaker 1: just from someone who's in that in that position, like
Speaker 1: really in it, I feel it right, like it feels
Speaker 1: very real, and it feels like what you're describing of
Speaker 1: calendaring out when you're gonna have you know, time off
Speaker 1: and sort of that that does that that kind of
Speaker 1: design of your of how your life is going to
Speaker 1: go that almost seems like a fantasy. It sounds awesome,
Speaker 1: but I think for a lot of our listeners out there.
Speaker 1: They might have just heard what you said and said, yeah,
Speaker 1: that chance, lady, I'm gonna look at my calendar and say, oh,
Speaker 1: in February, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna have this
Speaker 1: lovely vacation. But I think it's exactly what you said
Speaker 1: that it's a cultural shift of understanding why you're not
Speaker 1: doing yourself any favors by not being able to do that. Well,
Speaker 1: that's why your boss has to sit you down in January.
Speaker 1: That's what I do with my staff too. Like it's personal, sure,
Speaker 1: and especially in our freelancer hustle side hustle type culture
Speaker 1: that we operate in, it's tough because we're our own
Speaker 1: boss in a lot of ways. But you know, it's individual,
Speaker 1: it's systemic in terms of an organization, and there are
Speaker 1: things that our government can do. Let's let's be real,
Speaker 1: let's get on that policy soapbox for a second, because
Speaker 1: America can be better on this, Like there are models
Speaker 1: of other countries that have clearly made progress on this,
Speaker 1: and bridget That's what I want to talk about when
Speaker 1: we come back from this next quick break, So hang on,
Speaker 1: we want to hear all that New America has to share.
Speaker 1: About what other countries have figured this out and how
Speaker 1: we in the United States can get on board with
Speaker 1: a Better Life We'll be right back after this quick
Speaker 1: word from our sponsors, and we're back, and Bridget Todd
Speaker 1: was just making her plans to head to Costa Rica
Speaker 1: on vacation, y'all, So stay tuned for news on that front.
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, we're here with Bridget Chalty, author
Speaker 1: lead director of the New America's Better Life Lab. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about Uncle Sam, shall we like? We know that
Speaker 1: individuals we've got to get out of the martyrdom mind set.
Speaker 1: We know that organizations have to make changes in how
Speaker 1: they're acting to start believing in this concept of sustainability
Speaker 1: being good for business. What on earth is government's role
Speaker 1: in making this easier on all of us? Well, you know, honestly,
Speaker 1: country or society, they signal what's important in the policies
Speaker 1: that they hold and policies. You know, one of the
Speaker 1: things we work on the Better Life Lab is not
Speaker 1: only policy. We do original research and data and storytelling,
Speaker 1: but we're really all about culture change and so sort
Speaker 1: of a chicken or egg, what comes first is the
Speaker 1: culture change and then the policy changes. But there's a
Speaker 1: lot of really good evidence from other countries that when
Speaker 1: you change a policy, then the culture changes. So we're
Speaker 1: trying to press on both of those level levers, you know.
Speaker 1: So there's there's a lot that that that the government
Speaker 1: could do. Um. You know, for instance, in some countries
Speaker 1: they have flexibility to call it a right to request.
Speaker 1: In the UK, UM, you as a as a worker,
Speaker 1: you have the right to request a flexible schedule and
Speaker 1: a and your manager, your boss can only turn you
Speaker 1: down if they can make a business case about why
Speaker 1: it would hurt the business. So that's certainly something that
Speaker 1: we could do, you know, UM businesses and it may
Speaker 1: not like that, well then I would say, then then
Speaker 1: jump ahead of the curve and make flexibility the default
Speaker 1: in your business. I don't wait for the government to
Speaker 1: be involved, you know, go ahead and lead on that one. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, there's plenty of other things that we could
Speaker 1: do to understand and to reflect the fact that the
Speaker 1: workplaces today are still set up to accommodate the male
Speaker 1: worker of the ninety fifties. You know, the workplace today
Speaker 1: does not uh really does not mesh or or there's
Speaker 1: such a huge disconnect between the way people really live
Speaker 1: their lives and what they're expected to do at work,
Speaker 1: so we could have things where the only advanced economy
Speaker 1: with no paid family leave policy, family medical leaf policy.
Speaker 1: We're the only advanced country that does not have a
Speaker 1: paid vacation days policy. UM. And we're our labor laws
Speaker 1: were actually they haven't been updated in seventy five years.
Speaker 1: The fairly the Fair Labor Standards Act was we were
Speaker 1: leading the world all back in the nineteen thirties when
Speaker 1: we came up with the forty hour work week and
Speaker 1: the minimum wage, and at the time there was discussion
Speaker 1: that we should also have a national two week vacation policy. UM.
Speaker 1: But then, you know, unfortunately they started out with three things,
Speaker 1: and in the way that compromise works, they got rid
Speaker 1: of two and they got rid of one and they
Speaker 1: left us with two. So maybe they should have started
Speaker 1: with five things, and then we would have ended up
Speaker 1: with a paid vacation policy, but we didn't. UM. But
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that that has done
Speaker 1: is that it limited over time hours for hourly workers.
Speaker 1: That said, you know, the Fair Labor Standards Act says
Speaker 1: if you work over a certain number of hours, forty
Speaker 1: hours you know, if you're an hourly worker, then you
Speaker 1: get time and a half. Well, that didn't happen with
Speaker 1: knowledge workers if you're a salaried worker. So literally, uh,
Speaker 1: you know. And at the time in the thirties, there
Speaker 1: weren't as many salaried workers as hourly workers. And now
Speaker 1: we've got so many knowledge workers that literally, by law,
Speaker 1: you can work people to death and it's perfectly legal, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, if you're a salaried worker. So it's time
Speaker 1: to really rethink our labor laws, uh and really think
Speaker 1: about them as investments in human capital, which is really
Speaker 1: what our workforce is. Um. So, yes, paid family lead,
Speaker 1: high quality, affordable, subsidized chapoo care. You know, it's it's
Speaker 1: a sounding. Yeah. Let's let's talk more about those two things.
Speaker 1: Because first of all, you just released a new report
Speaker 1: from New America that asked the question how much paid
Speaker 1: family leave is enough? And I think that's something a
Speaker 1: lot of businesses and our government is wrestling with. What
Speaker 1: did y'all find? Well, so what we did is we
Speaker 1: reviewed more than a hundred fifty academic studies from the
Speaker 1: United States and around the world, and we read many more,
Speaker 1: but we only we only kept the most rigorous, rigorously
Speaker 1: designed ones. And we had the same question, Well, you know,
Speaker 1: where did the twelve weeks of family unpaid Family Medical
Speaker 1: Leave Act come from? At the time that Trump administration
Speaker 1: was talking about a six week at first paid maternity
Speaker 1: leave and then now it's a paid parental leaf policy
Speaker 1: that they've been talking about, where did that come from? Um,
Speaker 1: you know, do you get six weeks or eight weeks
Speaker 1: of disability pay after you've had after childbirth? But you know,
Speaker 1: where did these times come from? And are they you know,
Speaker 1: what kind of time should we be looking at? Uh?
Speaker 1: And so what was really interesting. We looked at four
Speaker 1: different outcomes. We looked at infant and child health and wellness,
Speaker 1: maternal health and wellness, gender equality, and economic impact, the
Speaker 1: business impact. And we came up with four really four
Speaker 1: different recommendations. And the data is really clear when you
Speaker 1: look at infant mortality or SIDS SIDS rates, I mean,
Speaker 1: the United States, we have a really high infant mortality rate.
Speaker 1: We have one of the highest SIDS death rates of
Speaker 1: any country, not just advanced economies, any country. We have
Speaker 1: one of the highest maternal mortality rates, even higher than
Speaker 1: you know, places of a recent conflict like Bossia and Kazakhstan.
Speaker 1: So we're not doing so great on the health front,
Speaker 1: and those are huge costs. And so what we've found
Speaker 1: is the data is really clear to really reduce infant
Speaker 1: mortality and have an impact on SIDS and really set
Speaker 1: a child up for healthy development, our recommendation is one
Speaker 1: year split between parents, and I think the data it's
Speaker 1: really clear the data supports that. UM when you look
Speaker 1: at maternal health and wellness UM where the six to
Speaker 1: eight weeks came from. That was set back in the
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies. What people don't realize is that until the
Speaker 1: Pregnancy Discrimination Act passed in the nineteen seventies, there was
Speaker 1: no that made pregnancy a disability, you know, so that
Speaker 1: then you could cut you your state had a temporary
Speaker 1: disability insurance fund, or you your your company had a
Speaker 1: private disability insurance then you could qualify where a disability
Speaker 1: under pregnancy. So that did not happen until the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 1: And now those were just the you know, some some
Speaker 1: insurance persons somewhere just said, I don't know, six weeks, Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: that sounds good. But what we found is that the
Speaker 1: data really is clear that a majority of women are
Speaker 1: still experiencing at least one symptom of childbirths at six months,
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's dizzy, dizziness, nausea, fatigue, urinary incontinence,
Speaker 1: that your body is still really not healed. So we
Speaker 1: say a minimum of six months for ensuring um good
Speaker 1: maternal outcomes. And there's great data that shows how that
Speaker 1: has not only huge physical impacts, but mental health impacts,
Speaker 1: that reduces maternal depression, and that lasts over a lifetime.
Speaker 1: We found really interesting longitudinal research out of Europe that
Speaker 1: showed even thirty years later, if you had had a
Speaker 1: you know, if you had had a decent amount of
Speaker 1: time to recover from childbirth, that protective effect lasted for decades.
Speaker 1: When when it came to gender equality, the data was
Speaker 1: not as clear about how long a leap should be,
Speaker 1: but it was really clear that when you made space
Speaker 1: for men to take lead solo parentally, that it had
Speaker 1: a huge impact on relationship quality, on gender equality within
Speaker 1: the relationship um, it had a big impact on child
Speaker 1: development and the bonds between children and their fathers. Uh
Speaker 1: So we didn't have like a particular duration, you know,
Speaker 1: like it should be x number of days or weeks
Speaker 1: or months. But we did say equal bonding lead between
Speaker 1: men and women. That the data is so so clear
Speaker 1: that that makes a huge difference. Right when you're you know,
Speaker 1: when a child comes into a family, you know, all
Speaker 1: of your family dynamics are just thrown up into here,
Speaker 1: and so that's a perfect time to set a really
Speaker 1: different dynamic where you really share care and you share
Speaker 1: your lives together. The last one that we looked at
Speaker 1: was economic impact. And again what's really clear is that
Speaker 1: it's if you think about you think about it like
Speaker 1: a bell curve, like if if a leave is too short,
Speaker 1: women tend to leave the workplace, but if a leave
Speaker 1: is too long, they tend to not be able to
Speaker 1: come back to work or back at the same level.
Speaker 1: We look looked at places and like the Czech public
Speaker 1: where you could you could gone, you could be out
Speaker 1: for three years on with some kind of pay under
Speaker 1: different schemes per child um and it was very difficult
Speaker 1: then for women to get back into the workplace. So
Speaker 1: there's a sweet spot between you know, like nine months
Speaker 1: to a year for uh that if a if a
Speaker 1: if a woman has that long that kind of sufficient
Speaker 1: duration of a of a paid lead, they will come
Speaker 1: back into the workplace and they're actually ready and their
Speaker 1: um there the kind of real performance and productivity benefit
Speaker 1: to that. Yes. So one of the chapters you dive
Speaker 1: into in your book is about how the Republican Party
Speaker 1: almost passed an affordable childcare of aform bill. So what
Speaker 1: happened with that and do you ever think will get
Speaker 1: close to having something like that again in this country? Well,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't just Republicans. It was actually a bipartisan
Speaker 1: UH bill and a bipartisan effort. It was a really
Speaker 1: fascinating time. It was the early night. What is that bipartisan?
Speaker 1: What does that mean? Yeah, Republicans and Republicans and Democrats
Speaker 1: were not mortal enemies. Yeah, they were actually well together
Speaker 1: there for the benefit of the people, which is what
Speaker 1: you would help a Demlar person is all about. But
Speaker 1: in the early nineteen seventies, there was a couple of
Speaker 1: things that were happening that were really interesting, and one
Speaker 1: was that they were just beginning to do more brain studies.
Speaker 1: You know, before then, they thought that babies were just
Speaker 1: sort of like these blobs and it didn't really matter
Speaker 1: what you did the babies. You could leave them in
Speaker 1: a drawer, put them in a playpen, and they were
Speaker 1: just beginning to understand just how critical this time was
Speaker 1: for really setting architecture of their brains and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: setting the stage for all future development. And so there
Speaker 1: was so at the time President Richard Nixon got very
Speaker 1: interested in that and said, you know, we really need
Speaker 1: to make sure that all children have the best start
Speaker 1: in life. And at the same time, this is right
Speaker 1: when women started entering the workforce and mass in part
Speaker 1: because the Women's movement had opened up more um jobs
Speaker 1: that had been traditionally masculine jobs that had opened up
Speaker 1: more opportunity for women. But also at the same time,
Speaker 1: there were more and more working class women who went
Speaker 1: to work because sort of the family wage quote unquote
Speaker 1: if you will, had started to stagnate and families just
Speaker 1: couldn't make it on one salary anymore. And so it
Speaker 1: was really an economic necessity that a lot of women
Speaker 1: entered the workforce workforce, you know, just to keep the
Speaker 1: standard of living the same. And so there were poles
Speaker 1: and said, hey, more and more women are in the workplace, Um,
Speaker 1: wouldn't it be a great idea, you know, should we
Speaker 1: help should we help them with childcare, and majorities of
Speaker 1: Republicans and Democrats came back and said, yes, the government
Speaker 1: should actually play a role in this. So there was
Speaker 1: a huge bill that actually had bipartisan support. The nix
Speaker 1: And administ administration. They were working behind the scenes to
Speaker 1: craft the bill. They had a big coalition. Uh, and
Speaker 1: they actually it passed both House and Senate, and it
Speaker 1: made it to the White House. And it would it
Speaker 1: would have called for high quality, easily accessible child care,
Speaker 1: easily affordable. It was supposed to be on a siding scale.
Speaker 1: There'd be high standards, there would be good pay. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, it was basically childcare in every corner. Um.
Speaker 1: And it got to the White House. And at the time, uh,
Speaker 1: there this was just at the beginning of the rise
Speaker 1: of the kind of the far right wing of the
Speaker 1: Republican Party. UM. And Pat Buchanan who was sort of
Speaker 1: in the vanguard. UM. He was working in the White
Speaker 1: House at the time for Richard Nixon. He's a speech writer.
Speaker 1: And I went and interviewed him for my book and
Speaker 1: I and he said, I saw that bill coming and
Speaker 1: to him that that felt like the end of America.
Speaker 1: And he said, you know, uh, what makes America great
Speaker 1: is its families, and family is mom is home when
Speaker 1: the kids come home from school, with you know, waiting
Speaker 1: for them, with kicken pie. And I just looked at it,
Speaker 1: and I said, well, you know a majority of mothers
Speaker 1: in this country work, you know, they work outside the
Speaker 1: home for pay. Um. And that didn't that didn't seem
Speaker 1: to register with him. And he said, well, go ahead
Speaker 1: and work, but I'm you know, don't make don't make
Speaker 1: me pay for Johnny or jim you know, Jimmy or whatever.
Speaker 1: So he pav Yuchan and convinced Richard Nixon to veto that.
Speaker 1: Bill and Pa Buchanan had just come back from a
Speaker 1: trip to the Soviet Union at the time, um, and
Speaker 1: this was at the height of the Cold War. He
Speaker 1: saw all these little kids and these you know, in
Speaker 1: these kind of quote unquote Soviet daycares, and he became
Speaker 1: terrified that that's what that's what childcare was, that we
Speaker 1: would send all of our American children like rip them
Speaker 1: out of the mother's arms and rip them out of
Speaker 1: the house, and send them off to these little factories
Speaker 1: and make them, you know, march around and I don't know,
Speaker 1: sbout Leninist doctrine or something such nonsense. Thanks a lot, Pat,
Speaker 1: like really really blowing up our spot here by like,
Speaker 1: you know, branding this idea of affordable national childcare as indoctrination,
Speaker 1: like Russian indoctrination of our kids. That's not at all
Speaker 1: what was going to be. Well, that's exactly how he
Speaker 1: painted it. And he stirred up the conservative base, you know,
Speaker 1: the infull wars of the time, the conservative columnists, and
Speaker 1: they really scared people. And Nixon decided to veto the bill,
Speaker 1: and he let Pat Buchanan write the veto message. And
Speaker 1: when I talked to Pat Buchanan, he said, we not
Speaker 1: only wanted to kill the bill, but we wanted to
Speaker 1: kill the very idea of childcare in the United States. Well,
Speaker 1: he's been pretty successful in that and never hasn't. And
Speaker 1: what's that's pro family like killing childcare? And well, right,
Speaker 1: because of family values. To Pat Buchanan, men men go
Speaker 1: to work and women stay home. So I guess what
Speaker 1: I would say to that is, you know, that's just
Speaker 1: not the reality that we live in anymore. Wages have
Speaker 1: stagnated since the nineteen seventies, So if you want to
Speaker 1: still have the same standard of living, you know, you
Speaker 1: do need to earners, and if you don't want to earners, well,
Speaker 1: then you need to do something about wages, because you know,
Speaker 1: that's beyond a family's ability to control um. And the
Speaker 1: other thing is, I guess I would argue, you know what,
Speaker 1: if you make flexible work the default, then somebody could
Speaker 1: be home, you know, at least sometimes for cake and
Speaker 1: piet three in the afternoon. So I guess my argument is,
Speaker 1: can't we get to that same spot where we really
Speaker 1: value family time, where we really value um, you know,
Speaker 1: the time that we that we have, you know, with
Speaker 1: others that we love. Can we get there in a
Speaker 1: way that doesn't require like half the workforce to stay
Speaker 1: home and and not be able to you know, contribute
Speaker 1: to in the public sphere and add our knowledge and
Speaker 1: ideas to the economy. Or can we or can we
Speaker 1: figure out how to change workplaces such that, you know,
Speaker 1: if you do want to take out a few years
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, it's not so difficult to get back
Speaker 1: in and get back on a career track. You know,
Speaker 1: Can we figure out how to change the way we
Speaker 1: work and our workforce culture to really match what people
Speaker 1: really want in the way we live our lives. Can
Speaker 1: we figure out how to do good, excellent work and
Speaker 1: still have time for all of the all the things
Speaker 1: that make life worth living. And I think we can.
Speaker 1: There are other people who've done it. We just have
Speaker 1: to start. So bridget I'm a US voter and I'm
Speaker 1: piste off about this issue. What can I do? How
Speaker 1: do I make this happen? I got to talk about it,
Speaker 1: you know, Um, make sure that your lawmakers know that
Speaker 1: this is something that you care about. Have your voice heard,
Speaker 1: Do they have a plan, do they have a position
Speaker 1: on it? You know, a lot of times these these
Speaker 1: issues don't rise us to the top because people sort
Speaker 1: of feel hopeless. Oh, childcare be so expensive, it's such
Speaker 1: a big deal. We can't do it. Well, you know what,
Speaker 1: We're never going to figure out how to do it
Speaker 1: if we don't start asking, if we don't start making noise. So,
Speaker 1: if I'm a voter, find uh, you know, first and foremost,
Speaker 1: find candidates who support your views and are you know,
Speaker 1: and we'll make these you know, are and are committed
Speaker 1: to finding answers and solutions. Vote for them. Get out there,
Speaker 1: you know, m go knock on doors, donate money, you know,
Speaker 1: make this, use the system, make the system work, and
Speaker 1: then you know, if your candidate has not, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe it's not your your ideal candidate. We'll get out
Speaker 1: there and make sure that you know your constituent, your
Speaker 1: your voice heard right right to your member of congress um.
Speaker 1: You know, start locally there there can be local solutions
Speaker 1: that then can be scaled. Let people know about it,
Speaker 1: make noise. You don't, don't just sort of suffer in silence,
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of pain out there. And what
Speaker 1: I found when I was writing my book is I
Speaker 1: thought that I was completely alone and that everybody else
Speaker 1: was fine. And it was really only in writing the
Speaker 1: book that I realized everybody's not fine and we're all
Speaker 1: in pain. It's just that nobody believes that things can change,
Speaker 1: so that there's been a real hopelessness and sort of like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: what use is it? Why bother talking about it? And
Speaker 1: we need to start talking about it and keep talking
Speaker 1: about it. And that's a lot of what we're doing
Speaker 1: here at the Better Life Lab. We just we've got
Speaker 1: our new media partnership with Slate. We've got the Better
Speaker 1: Life Lab channel on Slate, and that's part of our
Speaker 1: Our goal is to just have a steady stream of
Speaker 1: high quality stories and data and essays to just completely
Speaker 1: keep hammering this issue that our world needs to change
Speaker 1: and it's not impossible, and let's get together and do this.
Speaker 1: And we are so grateful for your work and your
Speaker 1: leadership on that front. Obviously, the last time you and
Speaker 1: I sat down, Bridget, we were talking about a very
Speaker 1: different prospective future pre election two thousand sixteen. And I
Speaker 1: think all the things you just mentioned of making your
Speaker 1: voice heard, writing letters to your elected officials, knocking doors,
Speaker 1: making phone calls are clearly things that we didn't do
Speaker 1: enough of this past go round, or at least the
Speaker 1: Electoral College really screwed us on that front. The leadership
Speaker 1: of New America and giving us and arming us with
Speaker 1: the tools to make our voices her cannot be understated.
Speaker 1: And campaigns and coalitions that have been coming together around this,
Speaker 1: like the Make It Work campaign, I thought was a
Speaker 1: really interesting UM leader in the space of advocating for
Speaker 1: family solutions or work life solutions that would benefit all
Speaker 1: of us, including single, childless, unmarried women like Bridget and
Speaker 1: I hear um that I would love to see us
Speaker 1: all pounding the pavement a lot more, whether it's on
Speaker 1: the state level and the local level or on the
Speaker 1: federal level moving forward, So where can our listeners catch
Speaker 1: up with you, Bridget Hilty and follow the great work
Speaker 1: that you're leading at the Better Life Lab. Well, that
Speaker 1: would be awesome because part of what we are really
Speaker 1: trying to do is network with other people, like minded people,
Speaker 1: and you know, by banding together, we're all stronger. So
Speaker 1: we are all about making connections and um people can
Speaker 1: find us on the web where we've got a lot
Speaker 1: of tools uh um at the New America website, you
Speaker 1: can look for the Better Life Lab. We've got a
Speaker 1: newsletter that comes out where we amplify not only our
Speaker 1: work but other partner organizations and researchers and writers who
Speaker 1: are doing really great work trying to move the needle.
Speaker 1: Because again we believe in amplifying other voices in addition
Speaker 1: to ours. That we're all stronger um when we all
Speaker 1: come together. UM. So we also, you know, we're on
Speaker 1: social media. We've got a really cool new project called
Speaker 1: Mission Visible, where we've curated a list of fantastic um
Speaker 1: kind of a list of experts who are women and
Speaker 1: people of people of color. And so every time there's
Speaker 1: an all male Panda. We've actually got race sources. It's
Speaker 1: like no excuse, come to Mission Visible and find your
Speaker 1: find find a diverse expert. So we're really trying to
Speaker 1: look for practical solutions as well. So there's Mission Visible
Speaker 1: out there. Um you know, we have events, UM, I
Speaker 1: do a lot of speaking, and we now have the
Speaker 1: Better Life Lab channel and slate, So come there and
Speaker 1: read our stories and um, you know, help us spread
Speaker 1: the world the world. The world needs to change, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And if you haven't already, pick up your copy of
Speaker 1: Overwhelmed Work, Love and Play and No one has the time,
Speaker 1: Bridget's fantastic book. Clearly you have such expertise on this
Speaker 1: subject matter. We could talk with you all day about it.
Speaker 1: So if you want more historical context, political context and
Speaker 1: vivid picture of how we can get out of this
Speaker 1: overwhelmed culture, and make sure to pick up Bridget's awesome book.
Speaker 1: Smithy listeners, we want to hear from you. What does
Speaker 1: this mean to you? What would it look like to
Speaker 1: have an organization and a government that is bought in
Speaker 1: on work life balance, that is aware of role conflict
Speaker 1: and how much it's hampering us all from achieving our
Speaker 1: full potential make sure to get in touch with us
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast on Twitter, show us what roll
Speaker 1: overload looks like for you on Instagram at stuff mom
Speaker 1: Never Told You, And as always, we love getting your
Speaker 1: listener mail at mom stuff at how stuff works dot
Speaker 1: com