Speaker 1: Hey, this is Emily, and this is and you're listening
Speaker 1: to Steph. Mom never told you. And today we're talking
Speaker 1: about the recent decision on behalf of the Boy Scouts
Speaker 1: of America to accept girls for the first time into
Speaker 1: their cub Scout program in ten So this decision was
Speaker 1: announced this past October when the Boy Scouts of America
Speaker 1: said that for the first time in their nearly one
Speaker 1: hundred year history here in the United States, they were
Speaker 1: going to be fully inclusive for girls joining the youngest
Speaker 1: ranks of their program. And this struck me immediately, like
Speaker 1: many people, as a cool, progressive win. But it sounds
Speaker 1: very inclusive of them and very progressive and forward thinking exactly.
Speaker 1: And the more we looked into this, the more drama
Speaker 1: there is behind this story, because that's not the full story.
Speaker 1: So today we're gonna break down potentially what motivated this decision, specifically,
Speaker 1: how the Girl Scouts of America have reacted to said decision,
Speaker 1: and what this actually means for the boots on the
Speaker 1: ground when it comes to the kids who are the
Speaker 1: Scouts themselves and the parents who are really the ones
Speaker 1: who are running the program. Because this is based on
Speaker 1: you know, troop by Troop administration. So first, let's take
Speaker 1: a look back the history of the Boy Scouts of
Speaker 1: America for a second. So this latest move on to
Speaker 1: have the Boy Scouts was one of many transitions that
Speaker 1: they've made in this era of really declining membership, which
Speaker 1: is important to underscore. They used to be five million
Speaker 1: member Boy Scouts going strong, and now those numbers have
Speaker 1: really shrunked about two million Boy Scouts nationwide. And you
Speaker 1: might recall that the Boy Scouts have had some scandal
Speaker 1: as of late. Back in two thousand and ten, a
Speaker 1: sexual abuse scandal struck the Voice Scouts and really rocked
Speaker 1: their entire brand and their reputation. Back in twenty ten,
Speaker 1: a jury ordered that the Scouts pay eighteen point five
Speaker 1: million dollars in damages to a Scout who was abused
Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties. It became the largest punitive damages
Speaker 1: award to a single plaintiff in a child abuse case
Speaker 1: in the US history. Wow. So, you know, at first
Speaker 1: I thought that maybe the numbers were declining just because
Speaker 1: of shifting interests and young people. But you know, I
Speaker 1: think that that really turnished their brand and made it
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that people weren't super excited to
Speaker 1: get involved in the way that they were when I
Speaker 1: was growing up. Yeah, And I think also there's something
Speaker 1: to be said about what you mentioned though the trend right.
Speaker 1: I think as millennials become parents and become the majority
Speaker 1: of parents soon, there's this market shift in a search
Speaker 1: for new forms of community structures. Because communal groups and
Speaker 1: hobbies and infrastructure of your own, you know, community groups,
Speaker 1: things like that used to be really big, like organized
Speaker 1: religion or clubs or sports. They've been on the decline
Speaker 1: for a long time now. So I think there's this
Speaker 1: interest in, Okay, how do we appeal to a millennial
Speaker 1: parent in an era of overwhelmed. Quite frankly, I think
Speaker 1: that community involvement has gone down over the last few decades,
Speaker 1: and their brand was rocked by this totally, and that
Speaker 1: might be part of the reason why. And back in
Speaker 1: the Boy Scouts of America said, Okay, we have to
Speaker 1: make some changes. We have to show that we're inclusive,
Speaker 1: that we're safe, that we're supportive. So that's when the
Speaker 1: Boy Scouts of America first accepted gay boy Scouts, which
Speaker 1: was a really big deal. That's when they change their
Speaker 1: policy from like not at all being inclusive and being
Speaker 1: pretty hardcore right wing, super affiliated with hard right Catholicism.
Speaker 1: That's sounds great, but it also was sort of head
Speaker 1: scratching that before they were making young boys pick a
Speaker 1: sexual orientation and then that sexual orientation determined whether or
Speaker 1: not they could be involved in the Boy Scouts or not. Well,
Speaker 1: it basically was like not friendly for gay folks period.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about it, this was like
Speaker 1: probably a year after Cheerios first had gay parents in
Speaker 1: their commercials. This is a different time, and thank god,
Speaker 1: we've progressed rapidly on you know, the main streaming of
Speaker 1: marriage equality, although I think we've discussed on a few
Speaker 1: episodes now how marriage equality is not enough and certainly
Speaker 1: isn't sufficient for equal protection under the law for our
Speaker 1: fellow gay Americans. But you know, they've made some strides
Speaker 1: at Boy Scouts of America to try to modernize. Yeah,
Speaker 1: later in the Boy Scouts decided they were going to
Speaker 1: accept gay Scout leaders, So they were accepting gay Scouts
Speaker 1: and gay Scout leaders at this point. That same year,
Speaker 1: the Girl Scouts accepted Frands girls into the Girl Scouts
Speaker 1: ranks as well, right, And then it took until for
Speaker 1: the Boy Scouts to formally accept trans Scouts. So it's
Speaker 1: kind of an interesting to watch who's going to be
Speaker 1: more inclusive and when and how and when you're dealing
Speaker 1: with sexual orientation and the mainstreaming of sort of progressive
Speaker 1: inclusion policies with children's organizations. It was really interesting to
Speaker 1: see how these two institutions reacted. Yeah, I find the
Speaker 1: whole thing kind of fascinating. You would think that sexual orientation,
Speaker 1: particularly the sexual orientation of an adult, would not really
Speaker 1: come into play in the Scouts. It just it's strange
Speaker 1: to me to think that that was a conversation. You know,
Speaker 1: growing up doing dance and stuff, I didn't know if
Speaker 1: my dance teachers were gay or straight. It just never
Speaker 1: it never came up. It was a non issue. And
Speaker 1: so it's interesting to me that this was such a
Speaker 1: um hot button thing that they needed to get a
Speaker 1: policy on. It seems like, well, there was a lot
Speaker 1: of homophobia in the ranks. It's not like there was
Speaker 1: a lot of sexual orientation talk in the Rings, but
Speaker 1: there was homophobia that conflated sexual abuse scandals with gay people.
Speaker 1: I see what you're saying. Yeah, Yeah, So which is
Speaker 1: we know is totally mistake. It's it's this kind of
Speaker 1: like classic gay panic where if there's gay people around
Speaker 1: and there's kids in the mix, people sell that as
Speaker 1: if it's some sort of scandal, like, oh, think about
Speaker 1: your children, blah blah blah, your children aren't safe. Everyone
Speaker 1: knows that's bunk. Yeah, it's it's a way of injecting
Speaker 1: this really toxic based out of nothing ideology into nothing right,
Speaker 1: like fearmongering. It's homophobia, like one on one. It's so gross.
Speaker 1: It's so gross that I think it's even grosser that
Speaker 1: kids are involved, because it normalizes that kind of toxic
Speaker 1: thing for kids at such an early age. Kids will
Speaker 1: grow thinking it's okay to exclusive one because they're gay
Speaker 1: or because they're trans if they are getting that message
Speaker 1: from social organization that they're a part of. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I think that was part of the decision, was a
Speaker 1: market shift from a more conservative, hardline ideology that really
Speaker 1: has been at the root of the Boy Scouts of
Speaker 1: America since its founding in our country to post scandal
Speaker 1: post saying we need to adapt because things are changing
Speaker 1: and we need to be inclusive. And here's the thing.
Speaker 1: A lot of people, including notably the Girl Scouts of
Speaker 1: America think that it has nothing to do with a
Speaker 1: shift in values or commitment to inclusion. They really think
Speaker 1: this has everything to do with a marketing strategy to
Speaker 1: up their ranks and not their numbers. So, when the
Speaker 1: Boy Scouts of America made this latest announcement that they
Speaker 1: were going to include girls, despite the fact that a
Speaker 1: lot of progressives and feminists just like me, we're cheering
Speaker 1: on this notion of expanded opportunities for girls who wanted
Speaker 1: to join the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts of America
Speaker 1: were not so pleased. In a letter obtained by BuzzFeed News,
Speaker 1: the Girl Scouts called the Boy Scouts quote covert campaign
Speaker 1: end quote to recruit girls, both reckless and unsettling, and
Speaker 1: basically spilled this clearly antagonistic feud between the Girl Scouts
Speaker 1: and the Boy Scouts into the open. So I had
Speaker 1: no idea that there was this intense bad blood between
Speaker 1: the Girl Scouts and the Boy Scouts. This is some
Speaker 1: East Coast West Coast like, this is a real blood feud. Definitely,
Speaker 1: I had no idea that they were involved in this
Speaker 1: kind of bad blood. But I guess I almost would
Speaker 1: have assumed that they were working together, they were one organization,
Speaker 1: but not so at all, not at all so. While
Speaker 1: the Boy Scouts released the statement saying, the values of Scouting, trustworthy, loyal, helpful, kind, brave,
Speaker 1: and reverence are important for both young men and women,
Speaker 1: we strive to bring what our organization does best, developing
Speaker 1: character and leadership for young people, to as many families
Speaker 1: and youth as possible as we help shape the next
Speaker 1: generation of leaders. Right. That was their take on it.
Speaker 1: Very innocuous, very noble, noble, very good sounding like who
Speaker 1: wouldn't share that on? And the Girl Scout said, here's
Speaker 1: the deal. You're all being had, Okay. Their president, Kathy
Speaker 1: Hopinka Hannon, wrote a letter to the Boy Scouts president
Speaker 1: Randall Stevenson, saying it is inherently dishonest to claim to
Speaker 1: be a single gender organization the Boy Scouts while simultaneously
Speaker 1: endeavoring upon a co ed model. We were disappointed in
Speaker 1: the lack of transparency as we learned that you were
Speaker 1: surreptitiously testing the appeal of a girl's offering to millennial parents,
Speaker 1: basically saying, you're encroaching on our turf, and we know
Speaker 1: that you're doing this dishonestly with false advertising just to
Speaker 1: up your pathetic numbers. One. What a statement they really,
Speaker 1: I mean they they did not hold back. I don't know.
Speaker 1: When I read the Boy Scouts statement, I said exactly
Speaker 1: what you said, right. Oh, this sounds great, that sounds progressive,
Speaker 1: that sounds noble. I'm behind it. I actually don't disagree
Speaker 1: with either statement, I guess because it does sound like
Speaker 1: like a turf grab, and it does seem like something
Speaker 1: they're doing, perhaps disingenuously to get more Scouts and let's
Speaker 1: get more money. Yeah, I mean, I can also see
Speaker 1: both sides of the issue. I have to say, I
Speaker 1: am disappointed that the grown ups in this case can't
Speaker 1: set a better example for the kids. There are a
Speaker 1: lot of children watching their leadership, watching their role models here,
Speaker 1: and as grown ups were failing to get along, we're
Speaker 1: failing to be collaborative. And you know what, this isn't
Speaker 1: anomaly when it comes to Scouts across the world. So
Speaker 1: to really understand where there's bad blood comes from, it's
Speaker 1: not about this one decision, Bridget. We have to look
Speaker 1: deeper into where this animosity comes from, which I want
Speaker 1: to do after we take this quick break and then
Speaker 1: dived into the history of the Girl Scouts in the
Speaker 1: Boy Scouts here in the US. We'll be right back
Speaker 1: after this. Okay, so we're back. Let's take a look
Speaker 1: back at how we got here. How the Boy Scouts
Speaker 1: versus Girl Scouts war that just broke out really stems
Speaker 1: from a long history of animosity. So back in Robert
Speaker 1: Baden powered with the book Scouting for Boys, and it
Speaker 1: was an instant hit in the UK, basically starting the
Speaker 1: boy Scout movement as we know it exactly. And here's
Speaker 1: the funny part. So instantaneously he was an overnight successful author.
Speaker 1: He didn't really think he was starting this you know,
Speaker 1: worldwide phenomenon or or community program, but a bunch of
Speaker 1: his fans kids were writing in saying, Hey, I'm a
Speaker 1: little boy, I want to get involved. Where do I
Speaker 1: you know, how do I join or start my own
Speaker 1: group for the Scouts, And what he didn't see coming,
Speaker 1: we're all the little girls who were also inspired to
Speaker 1: get more into the outdoors. Some some of them would
Speaker 1: write in and saying, hey, I'm a girl, can I
Speaker 1: be a Scout too? Or they would say hey, I'm
Speaker 1: e aries, I'm just writing in like all the other
Speaker 1: boys because I love scouting, so they would kind of
Speaker 1: write in in this covert manner to be like a
Speaker 1: surreptitious girl sneaking into scouting. What I also love is
Speaker 1: that you had boys really modeling what it means to
Speaker 1: be a feminist ally. You know, really early on, some
Speaker 1: of these little boys would write in and advocate for
Speaker 1: their sisters or their little girlfriends to be involved in
Speaker 1: their scouting. They would say, Hey, my name is Billie,
Speaker 1: and I have this friend named Bridget who really wants
Speaker 1: to go camping with us. Is it cool if she
Speaker 1: comes along too. You really had all of these ways
Speaker 1: that young people were trying to finagle their way into
Speaker 1: getting equal representation in the Scouts. Yeah, because I think
Speaker 1: what this belies is that the outdoors are of interest
Speaker 1: to everybody, and that's what the basis of scouting was about.
Speaker 1: It was about outdoor ensure, and that first book, Scouting
Speaker 1: for Boys, was all about, uh, sort of the manly
Speaker 1: art of being one with nature and figuring out how
Speaker 1: to how to attain it and control it and have
Speaker 1: survival skills. So to harness this demand from both boys
Speaker 1: and girls, Baden Powell unlisted the help of his sister
Speaker 1: Agnes Baton Powell to start their own organization in England
Speaker 1: called the Girl Guides, which started in nine nine, right,
Speaker 1: so it was only two years later, but there were
Speaker 1: some market differences. The Girl Guides focused on more appropriate
Speaker 1: crafts and focused on caring and basically grooming the next
Speaker 1: generation of homemakers, as opposed to what the basis of
Speaker 1: scouting for boys was all about. So Girl Guides Boy
Speaker 1: Scouts really came about at the turn of the century
Speaker 1: in the UK and from the very get go divided
Speaker 1: their attention. While here in the US things are pretty
Speaker 1: segregated by gender, in places like Europe and in Scandinavia,
Speaker 1: the Girl Scouts and the Boy Scouts have actually merged,
Speaker 1: which I think is kind of cool when I think
Speaker 1: about how the model of scouting could be. I think,
Speaker 1: if both organizations just have this model where they want
Speaker 1: to help kids be their best selves, they really should
Speaker 1: be on the same team. They have the same goals.
Speaker 1: Why not merge the two exactly? And that's what's happened
Speaker 1: over the course of the last hundred years or so.
Speaker 1: Since starting in the UK at the turn of the
Speaker 1: twentieth century, things have gotten a lot more general neutral
Speaker 1: in most parts of the world when it comes to scouting.
Speaker 1: Here in the United States, though, the foundations of the
Speaker 1: Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts, which really just took a
Speaker 1: few years after things got started in the UK, we're
Speaker 1: almost founded with this highly antagonistic tone. In the nine twenties,
Speaker 1: the Boy Scouts of America sued the Girl Scouts of
Speaker 1: America for their use of the word scout, basically saying
Speaker 1: that it was an inherently male term that they were misrepresenting.
Speaker 1: They were not successful in that campaign, but not what
Speaker 1: the word means, I know, but I mean, think about
Speaker 1: that time. They were saying, there are no such thing
Speaker 1: as girl Scouts, and you're stealing our identity and our
Speaker 1: brand and trying to feminize it. And it just when
Speaker 1: I was reading that, you know who I thought of
Speaker 1: was Harper Lee's character, Scout Finch. And to kill a
Speaker 1: mocking word, Scouts being named scout kind of picks on
Speaker 1: another kind of radical element fact that I hadn't even
Speaker 1: considered the same. So there was this debate raging in
Speaker 1: the United States as to whether or not there could
Speaker 1: be such a thing as a girl Scout, as opposed
Speaker 1: to the UK, where there were girl guides, So I
Speaker 1: think from the get go the Boy Scouts of America
Speaker 1: felt threatened by the encroachment of the Girl Scouts of America,
Speaker 1: and since then there's been a bit of a turf war.
Speaker 1: Throughout history, the Boy Scouts of America have always had
Speaker 1: a very different culture as an organization than the Girl
Speaker 1: Scouts too, And we started the top of the show
Speaker 1: talking about the ways that the Boy Scouts are really
Speaker 1: entrenched in this religious sort of much more grounded, explicitly
Speaker 1: organized religion, very dealing with things like homophobia and whether
Speaker 1: or not gay folks in It does seem like the
Speaker 1: Boy Scouts early on had been steeped in this sort
Speaker 1: of conservative, right wing ideology in a way the Girl
Speaker 1: Scouts really never were. Exactly. The Girl Scouts were always
Speaker 1: more urban in focus, We're always less religious in focus
Speaker 1: in terms of where their troops met even right, those
Speaker 1: are sort of cultural markers that continued throughout the course
Speaker 1: of the Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts of America. The
Speaker 1: Girl Scouts of America have always more explicitly focused on
Speaker 1: issues relating to social justice too. Yeah, when I was
Speaker 1: involved in the Girl Scouts many many many years ago,
Speaker 1: our big like year long project always involves some sort
Speaker 1: of urban renewal, So we would um volunteer at some
Speaker 1: sort of organization or we would you know, I remember
Speaker 1: like fixing up an old house for someone, like things
Speaker 1: like that. It was always rooted in some sort of
Speaker 1: social justice e aspect of that. That in spreading peanut
Speaker 1: butter around pine cones for some reason, that was something
Speaker 1: that we did make that was like that was like,
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think we ever did anything outdoors
Speaker 1: the other than smeeter peanut butter on pine cones for
Speaker 1: bird fears. I was a Girl Scout too. I was
Speaker 1: a Brownie and then a Junior Girl Scout, and I
Speaker 1: have to say my favorite parts of Girl Scout were camping.
Speaker 1: We would go to Girl Scout camp. It wasn't very rugged,
Speaker 1: to be fair, but I always wanted there to be
Speaker 1: more fire and more pocket knives. And I totally get
Speaker 1: the appeal of boy Scouts for girls because I would
Speaker 1: tagle on with my older brother Alex his Scout troop
Speaker 1: meetings and they seemed quite frankly like way more up
Speaker 1: my alley. Yeah, our Scout meetings for the Girl Scouts.
Speaker 1: All we did was put peanut butter and pine and
Speaker 1: craft about each other and braid each other. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: was a lot of like friendship bracelets. And here's the thing.
Speaker 1: The cultural differences between the Boy Scouts of America and
Speaker 1: the Girl Scouts of America. We're sort of perpetuated by
Speaker 1: independent troop leaders. You're Scouting experience varies dramatically to this
Speaker 1: day based on the interests and focus of your Scout leader.
Speaker 1: So there's this interesting undertone of more conservative, more religious
Speaker 1: ideology that you know, the Boy Scouts of America really embodied.
Speaker 1: Even if you look at where they're headquartered, you can
Speaker 1: sort of see the difference. Boy Scouts are headquartered in Texas.
Speaker 1: Girl Scouts of America are headquartered in New York City,
Speaker 1: of all places. So there seems to be this attraction
Speaker 1: of more progressive, more urban focused, more social justice focused
Speaker 1: Girl Scout troop leaders that perpetuates that culture even when
Speaker 1: you look at what they determined Scouts honor to be
Speaker 1: for both organizations. The Boy Scout Scouts honor includes the
Speaker 1: phrase to serve God and my country, but the Girl
Speaker 1: Scouts are formally told that they can substitute whatever they
Speaker 1: want for God, so you can serve you know, blam
Speaker 1: and my country. I remember you remember, like the Girl
Speaker 1: Scouts hand position. I'm like, I wish you all could
Speaker 1: see this, but that like pinky and thumb connecting on
Speaker 1: my honor, I will try to serve God in my country,
Speaker 1: to help people at all times. And it goes on
Speaker 1: and on and on like that. And when you look
Speaker 1: at the Boy Scouts honor and the code that they
Speaker 1: live by, first of all, I was struck by how
Speaker 1: completely similar they were. And you're like, oh, girl Scouts
Speaker 1: are really less religious. They have God in their honor
Speaker 1: code just as much as the boys do. But the
Speaker 1: Girl Scouts, like you said, give you that opportunity to
Speaker 1: serve country and beyoncetry. And contrast that with the Boy
Speaker 1: Scouts of America, who still to this day have you
Speaker 1: written policy against atheists and agnostics being in their ranks?
Speaker 1: So as leaders or as Scouts unclear, But this is
Speaker 1: according to Katie Tuttle's New York Times op ed, who says,
Speaker 1: don't be fooled. Basically, do not be fooled into thinking
Speaker 1: this is a progressive organization. They may have become more
Speaker 1: progressive in a few marketing moves over the last few years.
Speaker 1: But at its core, this is still a pretty conservative,
Speaker 1: hardline organized religion sort of creeping in on your youth.
Speaker 1: And I can't help but recall a pretty big figure
Speaker 1: in right wing conservative politics dropping by recently to give
Speaker 1: a big speech to the Boy Scouts. Do you know
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about? Yeah? I think not the most
Speaker 1: godly of all people, certainly not definitely on the right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Trump Alert, y'all. You may have recalled that in July,
Speaker 1: just to give you a sense of how divergent the
Speaker 1: Boy Scout versus Girl Scout cultures are. In July, the
Speaker 1: Boy Scouts of America hosted President Trump and said this
Speaker 1: would be a good idea. Let's bring him in to
Speaker 1: give a speech to a room full of Scouts and
Speaker 1: their parents. And after said speech, the chief Scout that
Speaker 1: the sort of person who organized it had to issue
Speaker 1: an apology to the Scouts and their parents because are
Speaker 1: absolutely brilliant, admirable commander in chief decided to regale the
Speaker 1: Scouts with tales of partying on yachts and then smearing
Speaker 1: his political opponents. Furthermore, Trump went on to say, after
Speaker 1: this apology came out, oh, I talked to the Boy Scouts.
Speaker 1: They said, I gave the greatest speech of all time,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, and basically Glee lied that never that
Speaker 1: conversation does not seem to have taken place. So here's
Speaker 1: my thing. If the Boy Scouts want to look super progressive,
Speaker 1: super inclusive, why in the world would they think that
Speaker 1: inviting a president as divisive as Trump to talk to
Speaker 1: their kids would be a smart pr move. Well, there
Speaker 1: are leadership organization right like this was a grab, an
Speaker 1: attempted grab, and having a prominent leader who doesn't act
Speaker 1: like a leader come speak to the Scouts, I mean,
Speaker 1: I I understand it's probably a tradition. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of presidents have addressed the Girl Scouts and the
Speaker 1: Boy Scouts. But it clearly was a mistake. Right. They
Speaker 1: ended up issuing a formal apology. That's I think that's noteworthy.
Speaker 1: But the fact that they invited him in the first
Speaker 1: place belies the culture differences between the Girl Scouts and
Speaker 1: the Boy Scouts. And to be fair, the Girl Scouts
Speaker 1: did have to apologize for their involved in Trump's inauguration
Speaker 1: when they decided to perform, and I think it really
Speaker 1: just goes to show I don't think any kind of
Speaker 1: like kids, organizations should be getting an involved with Trump
Speaker 1: unless they want hot water. Right. Well, I mean the
Speaker 1: reality is, first of all, inauguration days were give them
Speaker 1: a chance, let's all come together days. Remember those days.
Speaker 1: We never were bought in on that to be here.
Speaker 1: But these are leadership organizations. The Scouts, Girls and Boys
Speaker 1: are purportedly the nation's leading organizations to help cultivate the
Speaker 1: next generation of leaders and civic leaders. At that the
Speaker 1: whole idea behind the Scouts is to create good citizens
Speaker 1: and to create future leaders, which I think is an
Speaker 1: admirable goal. So it doesn't surprise me that they returned
Speaker 1: to the highest leader in the land despite this current
Speaker 1: historical anomaly. But and and look for inspiration. Well, this
Speaker 1: is the statement the Girl Scouts put out defending their
Speaker 1: choice to be involved in the inauguration. They say pretty
Speaker 1: much exactly that at Girl Scouts, our movement is made
Speaker 1: up as individuals who hold political beliefs and convictions as
Speaker 1: varied as the nation itself. And because every girl has
Speaker 1: a home at the Girl Scouts, every girl in our
Speaker 1: movement is allowed her idea is opinions, belief and political ideology.
Speaker 1: Our fundamental value is empowering girls to be leaders in
Speaker 1: their own lives by helping them build courage, confidence and
Speaker 1: character to lift up their voices, champion their views, and
Speaker 1: be advocates for the issues and ideas important to them.
Speaker 1: Girl Scout supports girls as they become catalysts for change
Speaker 1: who strengthen their communities. And it does sound like it
Speaker 1: makes sense for an organization that is all about civically
Speaker 1: uplifting young people, particularly girls, that they would want to
Speaker 1: involve themselves with the president. But it does seems like
Speaker 1: something that with the Boy Scouts. It seems to illustrate
Speaker 1: that it's something that maybe comes with political consequences. Perhaps. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it's interesting because that statement
Speaker 1: to me sounds like, hey, we're not as crazy progressive
Speaker 1: as you think. We are appealing to right wing parents.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. And meanwhile, the Boy Scouts are allowing girls
Speaker 1: and appealing to progressive parents, so they are both trying
Speaker 1: to expand their turf. Yeah, and it almost sounds like,
Speaker 1: I gotta say it, from like a marketing perspective, the
Speaker 1: Boy Scouts kind of doing a good job. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think they'd beat the Girl Scouts the punch on
Speaker 1: this one, because the Girl Scouts are trying to basically say,
Speaker 1: girls don't be fooled. The Boy Scouts are only allowing
Speaker 1: you in for marketing purposes, And so the question becomes
Speaker 1: doesn't matter if it's just a marketing grab, if it
Speaker 1: if it actually expands opportunity for girls, because here the
Speaker 1: Girl Scouts of America spokes folks said that they felt
Speaker 1: quote blindsided by the news, and they pointed out that
Speaker 1: plenty of research shows how much girls thrive in all
Speaker 1: female environments, and that's fair. There's a wealth of research
Speaker 1: that shows the value of all female environments for for girls,
Speaker 1: especially Katie Tuttle, a New York Times writer, penn and
Speaker 1: op ed that's called girls don't join the Boy Scouts
Speaker 1: very subtle and described this move as quote a direct
Speaker 1: a hack on the Girl Scouts. And so she and
Speaker 1: a lot of advocates on behalf of the Girl Scouts
Speaker 1: for America are saying this latest move for supposed inclusion
Speaker 1: is not a reflection of the Boy Scouts progressive values,
Speaker 1: but rather a desperate move to stop the hemorrhaging membership
Speaker 1: numbers that they're looking at. I see, I don't even
Speaker 1: know where I fall one As someone who went to
Speaker 1: an all girls school, I absolutely agree that there's power
Speaker 1: in spaces for folks who identify as women, and that
Speaker 1: we need women inclusive spaces. I think that's very, very important.
Speaker 1: But I think it's about the kids part of me,
Speaker 1: things who give us a crap. If this is a
Speaker 1: you know, marketing scheme or a justs deployed to get
Speaker 1: more money or whatever, if that leaves the Girl Scouts
Speaker 1: high and dry, I don't really care. If it means
Speaker 1: more kids are getting access to things they want to
Speaker 1: do exactly. That's sort of where I'm at too, because
Speaker 1: to be fair, kids and parents alike have almost uniformly
Speaker 1: expressed excitement about this dishion, and we're going to dive
Speaker 1: more into why that is after this quick break. All right,
Speaker 1: so we're back, and we're diving into the nuance behind
Speaker 1: the latest decision on behalf of the Boy Scouts of
Speaker 1: America to now accept starting girls into their cub Scout program. Now,
Speaker 1: throughout all the research we've done, almost nobody, no parent,
Speaker 1: no Scout leader, and no little boy has gone on
Speaker 1: the record saying we don't want girls in the Boy Scouts.
Speaker 1: And you can take that for what it is. Maybe
Speaker 1: it's nobody wants to state that opinion in our very
Speaker 1: politically correct conversation we're having as a nation, And maybe
Speaker 1: there's more covert and quiet and unconscious gender bias at
Speaker 1: play there for sure. Or perhaps this isn't that big
Speaker 1: a deal to Boy Scouts. Perhaps allowing girls into the
Speaker 1: Boy Scouts isn't actually going to rock the boat. Well,
Speaker 1: it actually doesn't sound like it's that big of a
Speaker 1: deal at all. In reality, girls have long been part
Speaker 1: of the Boy Scouts in varying ways. Keep in mind
Speaker 1: that a lot of these troops are independently formed and organized,
Speaker 1: so they can kind of do what they want that
Speaker 1: includes involving girls. Girls were even formally admitted into the
Speaker 1: Exploring program in nineteen seventy one, but couldn't receive coveted
Speaker 1: Eagle Scout status right which, to be fair, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think the Eagle Scout badge is pretty universally regarded
Speaker 1: as honorable and quite an achievement. I am biased because
Speaker 1: Brad the Boot is an Eagle Scout. That means he
Speaker 1: can survive a swim test with this close on r
Speaker 1: that's like the final test, or like one of the
Speaker 1: big tests, but a lot of that a lot of
Speaker 1: people fail, is that you have to swim with your
Speaker 1: boots only hard. Yeah, exactly. See. You know about the
Speaker 1: Eagle Scout exam more than I do, and I think
Speaker 1: you know. The Eagle Scout status is something that boys
Speaker 1: and young men put on their college application. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: remember my cousin. It's signed by the president, so he
Speaker 1: has like it's like when you get your I don't know,
Speaker 1: diploma or certificate or whatever. It's signed by the current president.
Speaker 1: His was Bill Clinton, so it was always a big deal, like, oh,
Speaker 1: I've got Bill Clinton signature right here. And the Girl
Speaker 1: Scouts have an equivalent award. It's just not well regarded
Speaker 1: outside of the Girl Scouts. Was a Girl Scout. I
Speaker 1: don't even know what the award is. Yeah, it's called
Speaker 1: the Gold Award, and unfortunately it gets blown off compared
Speaker 1: to the Eagle Scout Award, even though the Gold Award,
Speaker 1: the highest possible award you can earn in the Girl Scouts,
Speaker 1: is just as impressive. Hallmark the Cardmaker has an entire
Speaker 1: series of cards specifically created just for congratulating Eagle Scouts.
Speaker 1: None of that exists for the Gold Award. Guidance counselors
Speaker 1: at schools all know what the Eagle Scout means and
Speaker 1: why that's so important to put on resumes and college applications,
Speaker 1: whereas only a very few folks know what the Gold
Speaker 1: Award is and you have to explain it to future
Speaker 1: employers and colleges, and it just it doesn't have the
Speaker 1: same reputation thanks a lot patriarchy. You the same thing
Speaker 1: in college sports, where men's championship means so much and
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, but an equally successful women's team like,
Speaker 1: no one really talks about it exact It's interesting how
Speaker 1: this stuff rears its head in so many ways, from
Speaker 1: sports to Girl Scouts exactly. Now here's the thing. Since
Speaker 1: the seventies, girls have been a part of the Boy
Speaker 1: Scouts exploring program. They've been allowed basically to do everything
Speaker 1: you need to do to become an Eagle Scout except
Speaker 1: get the formal recognition. So this decision when it was
Speaker 1: announced was actually lauded by a bunch of women who
Speaker 1: did that program without the recognition. Oh, I see, they're
Speaker 1: saying girls should have access to the Eagle Scout Award.
Speaker 1: We all acknowledge that it's bs that the Gold Award
Speaker 1: isn't given its fair credit. But since everybody knows what
Speaker 1: the Eagle Scout Award is, girls should have equal access
Speaker 1: to getting it. And you know, I started this podcast
Speaker 1: pretty agnostic, but that's fair. It's true. If you're gonna
Speaker 1: do all the things that go into getting this really
Speaker 1: prestigious award except be able to get the prestigious award,
Speaker 1: that's messed up, and you should be able to get
Speaker 1: it exactly regards exactly. So here's here's where this all
Speaker 1: shakes out. Really, the Boy Scouts, for all of their statements,
Speaker 1: from the leadership, to the troop leaders on the ground level,
Speaker 1: to the boys who are being interviewed about this, they
Speaker 1: don't seem that worried about integrating girls at all. And
Speaker 1: maybe they're just being really good feminists, I don't know,
Speaker 1: or maybe it's a marketing strategy, but either way, they
Speaker 1: don't seem concerned. The Girl Scouts leadership, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: seems very concerned and extremely threatened, understandably, but still it
Speaker 1: sort of made me uncomfortable as a feminist to hear
Speaker 1: the Girl Scouts of America uniformly slamming this move that
Speaker 1: the Boy Scouts made. Now here's the thing. To really
Speaker 1: get to the bottom of this, I think the New
Speaker 1: York Times podcast called The Daily did the best possible
Speaker 1: journalism they could do on this, which is they ran
Speaker 1: a special episode of their podcast just for kids, really
Speaker 1: targeting a kid's audience that primarily drew from interviews with
Speaker 1: twin ten year old girls, Elsa and Cleo, who lived
Speaker 1: just outside of Boston, were Girl Scouts together for a
Speaker 1: long time, and one of them has now decided to
Speaker 1: join the Boy Scouts and the other one has decided
Speaker 1: to stay with the Girl Scouts. So here's what Alistair
Speaker 1: Mooved the Twins dad had to say when describing just
Speaker 1: how different these twins are, granted their fraternal twins, which
Speaker 1: I think is maybe an important detail, but not only
Speaker 1: in how their interests differ, how their nature differs from
Speaker 1: one kid to the next. One is really extroverted and
Speaker 1: hyper and wants to be in the middle of the action.
Speaker 1: One is a little more introverted and more reflective and
Speaker 1: likes to listen to music a lot. But specifically, as
Speaker 1: the girls have come into their own identity in terms
Speaker 1: of how they choose to present here's what Alistair had
Speaker 1: to say, when they were babies, we always thought they
Speaker 1: looked very different from the time they came out their
Speaker 1: fraternal twins non identical. They also present very differently in
Speaker 1: how they've chosen as they've gotten older. To look, now
Speaker 1: that my hair is shorter, we don't look a lot like.
Speaker 1: When Elsa cut her hair to the length that she
Speaker 1: wanted it, it changed a lot of things for her. That,
Speaker 1: combined with her preference of clothing that mostly comes off
Speaker 1: the boys racks, means that most kids and adults assume
Speaker 1: she's a boy. I like wearing like sweatpants and T shirts.
Speaker 1: My favorite color is blue and green, so I wear
Speaker 1: that kind of color stuff. First, first of all, I
Speaker 1: love that this family just lets their kids be their kids.
Speaker 1: And if their daughter wants to wear boys clothes and
Speaker 1: cut her hair short and likes blue and green, that's okay.
Speaker 1: She's more aligned with what the Boy Scouts has to
Speaker 1: offer than what the Girl Scouts has to offer. She
Speaker 1: should pursue that. Kudos to this family. We're letting their
Speaker 1: kids express themselves, and haven't that be okay? We should
Speaker 1: all get that space exactly. And so after these two
Speaker 1: Elsa and Cleo were in the Girl Scouts for years. Elsa,
Speaker 1: the one who is a self reported tomboy in this case,
Speaker 1: she on her own accord, realized girl Scouts were not
Speaker 1: quite working for her. Klio, on the other hand, loves
Speaker 1: being around all girls, saying that, you know, it's nice
Speaker 1: to just get away from the boys for a little while,
Speaker 1: who can be kind of distracting, and she likes the
Speaker 1: sort of pace of how her Scout troop leader sets
Speaker 1: the tone and what that all girl environment is like
Speaker 1: for her, whereas Elsa wanted to go hiking and climbing
Speaker 1: and get a pocket knife and wanted to do more rugged,
Speaker 1: rough and tumble outdoorsy things. So even before this decision
Speaker 1: came down alistair, their dad helped Elsa get into the
Speaker 1: local Boy Scouts, and the Scout troop leader there said, sure,
Speaker 1: come on by no problem, even before they were given
Speaker 1: that sort of formal permission from the boy Scout leadership.
Speaker 1: So this family was excited about this decision. And I
Speaker 1: think it's important to note that once involved with the
Speaker 1: Boy Scouts, she Floor wished it wasn't as if the
Speaker 1: boys thought, you, there's a girl in our ranks. Blah blah,
Speaker 1: blah and gave her a hard time. In fact, they
Speaker 1: ended up voting her the leader of their group. You
Speaker 1: have to hear from these adorable boys in her boys
Speaker 1: got troop. Hello, this is Dolan. If anyone is just
Speaker 1: secretly telling her like why you boys? Yeah, just why
Speaker 1: why would you do that? Because you know what, also
Speaker 1: can do lots of things and it takes lots of
Speaker 1: bravery to step up and be a leader. Because lots
Speaker 1: of people do want to be a leader, but it
Speaker 1: takes true bravery to be a real leader. Doesn't that
Speaker 1: just the story your faith in humanity? Okay, first of all,
Speaker 1: Dylan might be the only male that I trust in
Speaker 1: the world right now, Dylan, you just won my Ally
Speaker 1: of the Year award. Congratulations, you are a great feminist
Speaker 1: male ally and I applaud you, and like boys restored
Speaker 1: my faith in humanity. I I'm joking, but like I
Speaker 1: needed to hear that. Sometimes we get I get so
Speaker 1: stuck in my head of like Trump and horrible men
Speaker 1: and Weinstein's. It's important to remember that the younger generation,
Speaker 1: they might be okay, they might be leading the way
Speaker 1: in ways that we maybe want to but can't. And
Speaker 1: when you listen to these little kids advocating for Elsa
Speaker 1: doing whatever she wants to do, Elsa being able to
Speaker 1: do anything she wants, Elsa being a great leader. They're
Speaker 1: lucky to have the contributions of a leader like Elsa.
Speaker 1: And don't be mean to Elsa. If you're out there
Speaker 1: being secretly mean to her, don't do it. It's a
Speaker 1: good reminder that young people are really paving the way,
Speaker 1: and it makes me wonder why can't the Girl Scouts
Speaker 1: leadership listen to Elsa and Dylan. Well, that's the thing
Speaker 1: is that to me, this is a moment where the
Speaker 1: boy Scouts are saying, whether they're saying it or not,
Speaker 1: which I kind of wish they were more explicit about it,
Speaker 1: we have the opportunity to change the narrative around masculinity.
Speaker 1: And here's what our plan is for that. You know,
Speaker 1: like this is Dylan is explaining that toxic masculinity isn't born.
Speaker 1: It's bread what I'm saying. Dylan is more wokes than
Speaker 1: a lot of dudes I know who are like twice
Speaker 1: as a Yeah, exactly, And the Girl Scouts of America,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, have an opportunity to do the same.
Speaker 1: And right now, tearing down the Boy Scouts doesn't make
Speaker 1: them look that good, doesn't really, you know, even if
Speaker 1: it's true, even if this is a marketing ploy, if
Speaker 1: this is what's happening on the local level, I'm all
Speaker 1: about it. And I think this really is reflective of
Speaker 1: what I think the model should be. The Boy Scouts
Speaker 1: and the Girl Scouts can be on the same team.
Speaker 1: If the team is getting kids interested in things and
Speaker 1: getting them civically engaged and making them into strong leaders.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if they would rather be going on
Speaker 1: heights with a pocket knife or you know, playing piano
Speaker 1: and drawing and putting peanut butter on pine cones. Whatever
Speaker 1: it is that the kid wants to do. We should
Speaker 1: be fostering that. And it shouldn't be this weird division
Speaker 1: that's about turf and about money and about marketing and
Speaker 1: all of that. It's really about the kids, and I
Speaker 1: hate to see that it seems like that has gotten
Speaker 1: a little bit lost, particularly in the statements coming out
Speaker 1: of the Girl Scouts exactly. And so when talking to
Speaker 1: Elsa and Cleo, the journalists over at the New York Times,
Speaker 1: the Daily asked, you know, would you rather see more
Speaker 1: of the Girl Scouts activities become a little more outdoors focused,
Speaker 1: or would you rather have the doors open at the
Speaker 1: Boy Scouts for girls to join, right, because we know
Speaker 1: that they do different activities, not necessarily by force, but
Speaker 1: by culture. Right, The cultures of these organizations encourage a
Speaker 1: different kind of activity set and their father Alistair really
Speaker 1: answered this question pretty clearly. For Elsa, she wanted to
Speaker 1: be in the Boy Scouts, and she has her own
Speaker 1: reasons for that. It really comes down to what feels
Speaker 1: empowering to them. So where does that leave us? I mean,
Speaker 1: girls have this unprecedented choice now, which I think is
Speaker 1: an empowering one, whereas the Girl Scouts of America might
Speaker 1: say it's a sinister one on the local level. When
Speaker 1: it comes to girls like Cleo and Elsa, they are
Speaker 1: now in a position of really being able to choose
Speaker 1: which organization speaks to them. I worry this is gonna
Speaker 1: come off sounding a little bit heartless, but ultimately I
Speaker 1: care a lot more about Elsa and Cleo and boys
Speaker 1: like Dylan that I do about the national leadership of
Speaker 1: Scouting organizations. What I really care about is that Elsa
Speaker 1: feels like she's in a community that understands her and
Speaker 1: where she is learning to be her best self, and
Speaker 1: that Dylan and Cleo also have those same opportunities. And
Speaker 1: if having the Boy Scouts being open to girls is
Speaker 1: going to do that, then that's what I want to do.
Speaker 1: I understand this argument that the Boy Scouts are being
Speaker 1: disingenuous and YadA, YadA, YadA, But at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, what I really care about is the kids,
Speaker 1: and it sounds like this has been good for the kids.
Speaker 1: I think so too, But it also makes me question, like,
Speaker 1: what should Scouting look like in a host gender world.
Speaker 1: I mean, we can look internationally two branches that have
Speaker 1: merged years ago and see how they're doing it. We
Speaker 1: can run with the focus on social justice from the
Speaker 1: Girl Scouts, which I think is a great thing to
Speaker 1: take with us across the Scouting universe. We can run
Speaker 1: with the focus on outdoorsmanship or outdoors person ship and
Speaker 1: really that focus on self reliance that the Boy Scouts
Speaker 1: seemed to have champions so well, I'd love to see
Speaker 1: them come together. And it feels to me like a
Speaker 1: better butter battle Dr SEUs style, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Do you put your butter on the top of the
Speaker 1: bottom that whole Doctor SEUs War analogy that was so
Speaker 1: brilliant because nobody really cares how you butter your bread.
Speaker 1: But that's the kind of that adults fight about, and
Speaker 1: this feels like one of those situations. It feels like
Speaker 1: we're missing the point. The point is that kids need
Speaker 1: to be cultivated into leaders and given choice to express
Speaker 1: themselves however they want. And the separation, though it is historic,
Speaker 1: and though it is grounded in different five oh one
Speaker 1: c three filings, I roll like it makes you just
Speaker 1: want to roll your eyes and think grown ups ruining everything.
Speaker 1: Get it together, Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts of America
Speaker 1: and do what is the right thing for our young people,
Speaker 1: which is bring them together in a post gender way.
Speaker 1: Why can't we do that? Yeah, if Woke Dylan can
Speaker 1: do it, you can do it exactly. And speaking of
Speaker 1: Woke Dylan, there are little boys out there who want
Speaker 1: to be girl Scouts. And I almost wish we could
Speaker 1: pick and choose our favorite parts of boy Scouts and
Speaker 1: girl Scouts and bring them together in one Scout. Like
Speaker 1: just listen to how the boy Scouts in Else's troop
Speaker 1: talk about girl Scout cookies. Partly I don't really speak.
Speaker 1: It's fair for boys because they can't be a Girl Scout.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons because I want to sell cookies.
Speaker 1: You want to sell cookies. The cookie factor. Yes, agreed,
Speaker 1: the cookie factor is real. I agree cookies are dope.
Speaker 1: I agree with these kids. They really they really know
Speaker 1: what they're talking about. They know the best parts of
Speaker 1: both brand, and they know what resonates with them. Like
Speaker 1: the point is, I think we should trust kids to
Speaker 1: know what speaks to them. And if Dylan is moved
Speaker 1: by the prospect of cookies or quote the cookie factor
Speaker 1: as he puts it, that's cool, exactly no offense. But
Speaker 1: selling popcorn just doesn't make the cut like the same
Speaker 1: way the Girl Scout cookies do. So let's bring Eagle
Speaker 1: Scout badges together with thin mints. Let's bring the Pinewood
Speaker 1: Derby together with caring and supporting and loving one another
Speaker 1: and uplifting urban renewal projects and fighting for social justice. Like,
Speaker 1: there is the potential for a much stronger brand if
Speaker 1: Girl Scouts of America and Boy Scouts of America can
Speaker 1: come together and be bigger on this one. And I
Speaker 1: I honestly I know we're gonna get some grief from
Speaker 1: hardcore Girl Scouts advocates out there. Bridget and I are
Speaker 1: both Girl Scout what it's like dropouts, Yeah, the linquents, Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're Girl Scout dropouts to be clear, um, But as
Speaker 1: an outdoors woman myself, as someone who really loves hiking
Speaker 1: and climbing and mountain biking and skiing and camping, and
Speaker 1: the moment we find ourselves in with like ari e
Speaker 1: I and brands like Athleta really embracing the fierce feminine
Speaker 1: component of embracing the outdoors. I think this is an
Speaker 1: opportunity for Scouting in the United States to really enter
Speaker 1: a new era. But it's gonna take grown ups getting along. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's tough for me as a vocal advocate of women
Speaker 1: identified spaces. You know, I've mentioned a zillion times. As
Speaker 1: a teacher, I've seen the way that sometimes little girls
Speaker 1: do just want to do their own thing, and little
Speaker 1: boys can be a little bit distracting to them. And
Speaker 1: I think a lot like Cleo seems to agree with
Speaker 1: that sometimes those spaces are important. So I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: I don't want to say that the Girl Scouts are awful,
Speaker 1: but I just think that we should be advocating for
Speaker 1: leadership and organizations that make kids more accountable for what
Speaker 1: they want to be doing and how they want to
Speaker 1: grow up and how they see themselves and how they
Speaker 1: feel comfortable. Yeah, that is the one, really harry part
Speaker 1: of this that makes it nuanced and complicated and not
Speaker 1: so easy to see a post gender Scout world because
Speaker 1: girls faces, all girls spaces are valuable in a different
Speaker 1: way than mixed gender spaces are. So it's just I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I think I guess the next
Speaker 1: move is up to the Girl Scouts of America. I'm
Speaker 1: curious to see what their next move is going to be.
Speaker 1: The boy Scouts have opened the doors to girls, well
Speaker 1: the girl Scouts open the doors to boys or like, really,
Speaker 1: my business is pretty adamantly focused on saying until women
Speaker 1: and girls are running the world, we're gonna focus on girls,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And making that focus choice
Speaker 1: is not a bad one. So I don't know, it's complicated.
Speaker 1: I'm I leave this conversation more ambivalent than I started it,
Speaker 1: And I feel like we waffled on this one a
Speaker 1: little bit because the waffle is real, because it's tricky.
Speaker 1: I can see both sides of the issue, and I'm
Speaker 1: wondering what are listeners have to say. Yeah, to be clear,
Speaker 1: I definitely don't have a answer. I think it's a complicated,
Speaker 1: nuanced issue, and we're really interested to hear, especially from
Speaker 1: former Scouts, from folks who have their own kids involved
Speaker 1: in scouting. What do you think? Where do you follow
Speaker 1: on this issue? We want to hear from you. You
Speaker 1: can find us on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You,
Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, and as always, we
Speaker 1: love getting your emails at mom stuff at how stuff
Speaker 1: works dot com.