Speaker 1: Welcome to Guys We Fucked. Guys We Guys Book. I'm Christina,
Speaker 1: I'm Correnn. We're sorry about last night, the anti slut
Speaker 1: shaming podcast. I never stopped. Hey, Fucker's how you doing?
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Guys We Fucked. It's the
Speaker 1: anti slut shaming podcast. I'm Karren, I'm Christina, and today's
Speaker 1: show is sponsored by talk Space, the online therapy company
Speaker 1: that lets you message a license therapist from anywhere, at
Speaker 1: any time. It's not like I'm doing the marble column
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Speaker 1: com slash GWF use code g WF and you give
Speaker 1: forty five bucks off your first month, and you show
Speaker 1: you support for this podcast. That's GWF at talk space
Speaker 1: dot com slash g w f Hey, come see us
Speaker 1: live if you are in or near Charlotte, North Carolina.
Speaker 1: Tonight we have two shows at the Comedy Zone and
Speaker 1: uh tomorrow we have one show that you can attend
Speaker 1: because the other one sold out. And that's what my
Speaker 1: mom's coming to. And I hope you come because we've
Speaker 1: had a lot of people ask us to come to
Speaker 1: sell Charlotte in North Carolina and we're here and show up. Also, Joseph,
Speaker 1: Essie and I did a comedy album together of original
Speaker 1: songs and sketches. It's called Maybe It's You, And if
Speaker 1: you buy it by March thirty one, you can email
Speaker 1: your receipt to Maybe It's You the Letter You album
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com and I personally will send you
Speaker 1: bonus tracks uh for everybody who buys it. Yeah by
Speaker 1: March thirty one. And Portland's Oregon Portland, remember you we
Speaker 1: were there before. We're gonna be back at Helium Comedy
Speaker 1: Club Thursday April five through Saturday April seven. Please get
Speaker 1: those tickets a S, A P. If you plan on attending,
Speaker 1: Mostly because it reduces a lot of stress in Christina
Speaker 1: and my life. I know a lot of people like
Speaker 1: to wait till last minute, and like, I understand if
Speaker 1: you're waiting for check or something, but if like you
Speaker 1: plan on attending, if you could just buy it now
Speaker 1: and we're gonna use a credit card, it really really
Speaker 1: relieves us freaking out that no one's gonna come to
Speaker 1: our shows because it always works out, but the fear
Speaker 1: is always in our hearts, which does keep us humble,
Speaker 1: but it's unnecessary. Also makes me lose my hair, so
Speaker 1: you don't want to bald bitch. Yeah, it's an unnecessary
Speaker 1: strain and back and forth of emails between our agents
Speaker 1: and us so beautiful. You know we appreciate it, um,
Speaker 1: And just remember you can go to Sorry about last
Speaker 1: Night Comedy dot com slash Tours for all our other
Speaker 1: tour dates. It's Sorry about last Night On social media,
Speaker 1: I'm philanthropy gal. Christina is Christina Hutch People complaining like
Speaker 1: if you can't, if you're like, oh, I missed the show,
Speaker 1: The best way to do it if you're not up
Speaker 1: to date on the podcast is to follow us on
Speaker 1: social media. Will always post about it. And then April
Speaker 1: two to Less Lonely Girls, the new podcast I'm doing
Speaker 1: with rosebud Baker, comes out yes, it is a podcast
Speaker 1: about us publicly sucking Justin Bieber. We're going to dissect
Speaker 1: his songs, um things that he's gone through in the
Speaker 1: media and his personal life. He's like out, he's like
Speaker 1: not in the industry. He's like taking a little breather right. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: that's that's over. He's back. He's in the studio working
Speaker 1: a new album. Patty Malette did follow Rosebud on Twitter
Speaker 1: and responded and said she was funny, So like this
Speaker 1: is happening, Um, are you gonna interview Justin Bieba? Hopefully
Speaker 1: fingers crossed. Very excited about it again. It's gonna be
Speaker 1: on iTunes April twond but you can subscribe now, so
Speaker 1: start subscribing now so when it comes out, you'll already
Speaker 1: be up to snuff with everything. And then on Friday,
Speaker 1: marcht Nacho Bitches is a new yor comedy club. That's
Speaker 1: the monthly show I do with Blair Saki also sometimes
Speaker 1: have Justin Perez or Rosebud. They're with me hosting Blair.
Speaker 1: You know, move to l A um, but you can
Speaker 1: check her out in l a She's a great comedian.
Speaker 1: So you use code Nacho to get into nacho bitches
Speaker 1: for twelve dollars. There's a two drink minimum as always
Speaker 1: as a standard with comedy clubs, but the age of
Speaker 1: sixteen and up. And if you're sixteen, just come and
Speaker 1: buy two sodas and some popcorn and have a really
Speaker 1: fun night. And then the next day, if you haven't
Speaker 1: gotten enough of us. UH, Saturday, March one, Wendy Starling
Speaker 1: and I are hosting the March edition of Glama Pus
Speaker 1: which is at a bar called Zinc Bar. It's a
Speaker 1: jazz club in the West Village eight twos third Street. UH.
Speaker 1: Starts at seven thirty pm. UH. These shows have been
Speaker 1: selling out, so get your tickets now. Links for all
Speaker 1: of these things that we're talking about are in the
Speaker 1: description of this very fucking podcast. And now we're gonna
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Speaker 1: I'm just a reminder for everyone. I know sometimes people
Speaker 1: try things that we promote and you don't like them.
Speaker 1: We do try everything that before adver tire here. We
Speaker 1: do not do anything that we haven't tried first. And
Speaker 1: of course everything is not for everyone, but we're only
Speaker 1: promoting stuff that we like. Nothing that we think is
Speaker 1: bullshit or that is not healthy or that is not
Speaker 1: we would never or we would never use. Yeah, we've
Speaker 1: turned down things that just are not appropriate, that we
Speaker 1: think are like a bad influence on society. We've turned
Speaker 1: down things that we think are too expensive for what
Speaker 1: they're doing. Um, so that's that. So we actually do
Speaker 1: put a lot of thought into our ads, and obviously
Speaker 1: ads need to exist, because we don't. That's how we
Speaker 1: aren't a living and can keep giving you the podcast
Speaker 1: for free rent. You know, it's also free I fast
Speaker 1: forward but if you so choose Sam right, Well, thank
Speaker 1: you so much to everyone who came out to see
Speaker 1: us in Denver. What a spectar weekends best yo. Okay,
Speaker 1: Karen and I got the opportunity to open up for
Speaker 1: Dave Chappelle and holy fucking ship it was one of
Speaker 1: the best nights of my comedy life ever. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was amazing. It's so weird because we've had a lot
Speaker 1: of famous comedians and people that we've really looked up to,
Speaker 1: and some have you know, been exactly who I thought
Speaker 1: they would be. Some have been better, a lot have
Speaker 1: been worse. I have to say, Um, they say, don't
Speaker 1: meet your heroes, but meet Dave Chappelle, because he's fucking fantastic.
Speaker 1: He's a very private person, which uh, you know, I
Speaker 1: really like in respect about him. But he was so
Speaker 1: kind and nice and gave us advice. That was philosophe
Speaker 1: That was so like, he amped me up about like
Speaker 1: all the possibilities that one could do in their career
Speaker 1: and one of the most intelligent I've ever met. For sure.
Speaker 1: This guy is fucking This guy is. There's a reason
Speaker 1: why he's the best comedian on the planet at this
Speaker 1: moment in time. Uh and uh, he's he's the real deal.
Speaker 1: He is. So he's he exceeded my expectations. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: it's like, whether or not you like his comedy, that's fine.
Speaker 1: I mean, no great comedian is going to have make
Speaker 1: a fan of everyone. That would mean putting out cocky
Speaker 1: poo poo um. But I just know he puts a
Speaker 1: lot of thought into his comedy. He really thinks about things.
Speaker 1: He certainly is an empathetic human being, and I think
Speaker 1: that like speaking to someone one on one is a
Speaker 1: really nice reflection of who they actually are as opposed
Speaker 1: to who they present, because you know, no matter like,
Speaker 1: comedians are definitely a more personal type of entertainer where
Speaker 1: a lot of times you really are getting pretty much
Speaker 1: who they are on stage, but you have to keep
Speaker 1: in mind it's still a performance, so you can't take
Speaker 1: everything verbatim. Like also the stand up calm like that
Speaker 1: is who they are. Yeah. Um, And he's great, And
Speaker 1: we definitely apologize to anyone who was not able to
Speaker 1: make it because they had tickets to the Thursday show
Speaker 1: at Comedy Works. But we were trying to explain this online.
Speaker 1: And you know, just as in life, comedy is about
Speaker 1: paying your dues. And when Dave Chappelle contacts the club
Speaker 1: and says I would like to work on Thursday night,
Speaker 1: especially when your other shows aren't sold out yet, you
Speaker 1: have to say yes. Of course. Dave Chapelle only answer
Speaker 1: to that question is yes. Same Chappelle has been in
Speaker 1: the business for literally decades. He is one of the
Speaker 1: most important living comedians around today. And uh, there's it's
Speaker 1: just like not really up for a discussion. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: that we didn't. It was we love Dave Chappelle and
Speaker 1: also just for us, Um, you know, sometimes we have
Speaker 1: to do it's best for us and it was a
Speaker 1: once in a lifetime opportunity. So hopefully if you guys
Speaker 1: love us, you'll understand what what an opportunity that was
Speaker 1: for us, not only to perform um and at a
Speaker 1: Dave Chappelle audience, but to just have that time to
Speaker 1: talk to him in the green room. Like those are
Speaker 1: the little moments that you work for. And we'll never
Speaker 1: forget that night for the rest of our lives. Yeah,
Speaker 1: damn god, I'm not such a high from that. It
Speaker 1: was amazing. And then the shows that we did on
Speaker 1: Friday and Saturday at Comedy Works. Comedy Works is one
Speaker 1: of the best comedy clubs ever. If you live in
Speaker 1: the Denver area, you gotta go see shows there. Um.
Speaker 1: I love that club and thank you everybody who came out.
Speaker 1: You guys are great support live comedy. We travel all
Speaker 1: around the country, all around the Globe and uh these
Speaker 1: and we really wanted to do our shows at comedy
Speaker 1: clubs because that's where we feel at home. But also,
Speaker 1: comedy clubs are one of the few spaces in life
Speaker 1: where you can just hear things unfiltered, uncensored, and you
Speaker 1: can have your boundaries and your comfort levels tested and pushed.
Speaker 1: And to me, that's what really great comedy does. And
Speaker 1: it's exciting and it's fun, and it's exhilarating and it's
Speaker 1: eye opening, and I mean, stand up comedy for me
Speaker 1: is just the best form of art on the fucking planet.
Speaker 1: And uh, I think that you guys should go out
Speaker 1: and support live comedy. And uh, it's really cool when
Speaker 1: people come out to our shows and they say that
Speaker 1: was the first live comedy show I've ever seen. It
Speaker 1: makes me so happy. And I hope, I hope, hope,
Speaker 1: hope that encourages encourages you to keep going to the
Speaker 1: comedy club, right, Uh yeah, and uh and not just
Speaker 1: you know, not just seeing us live, but if there
Speaker 1: was a comedian that you loved, she was a guest
Speaker 1: in the podcast, go to their website look at face
Speaker 1: when they're they're gonna be in their area, Like so
Speaker 1: many people have contract contact. That's recently, Andrew Schultz and
Speaker 1: Ben Haig ran into people who heard them on the
Speaker 1: Guys We fu podcasts, and that's really cool because, um,
Speaker 1: those people love it when you come and go up
Speaker 1: and talk to them afterwards and say, hey, I heard
Speaker 1: you on Guys We Fucked and I really liked what
Speaker 1: you had to say and I wanted to come out
Speaker 1: and support you. It's a It's a kindest gesture you
Speaker 1: can give to a comedian. Um. And additionally, kind of
Speaker 1: piggybacking off what Christina was just saying, um for about
Speaker 1: you know, being able to say what you want without
Speaker 1: being ostracized for it. I just watched last night Ricky
Speaker 1: Gervaise's new special Humanity. He hasn't come out with a
Speaker 1: new special in a long time. And I got to
Speaker 1: say before that I was not a huge Ricky Gervais fan. Um,
Speaker 1: but I watched that special because I try to watch
Speaker 1: every like major special that comes out on Netflix because
Speaker 1: I feel like it's part of my homework. And I
Speaker 1: think it's a definitely must watch for comedians just because
Speaker 1: it's good. But I think even more importantly, it's a
Speaker 1: must watch for people who aren't comedians and who are
Speaker 1: kind of struggling with this um kind of being offended
Speaker 1: by comedy and saying they that are inappropriate or it's racist, sorts, transphobic,
Speaker 1: or it's not inclusive. It's like, well, you know, the
Speaker 1: point of comedy is not to be inclusive. The point
Speaker 1: of common comedy is commentary on the society that you're
Speaker 1: living in, and that cannot always be PC because it's
Speaker 1: really hard to make a point without quote unquote offending anybody.
Speaker 1: And just it talks about kind of like thinking who
Speaker 1: the butt of the joke is and thinking like am
Speaker 1: I triggered by just a word? Or and who and
Speaker 1: who is really you know, getting made fun of in
Speaker 1: this joke. Because just because you hear like the word
Speaker 1: rape and a joke doesn't mean it's making fun of
Speaker 1: the person who got raped. In in any great rape joke,
Speaker 1: it is not making correct fun of the person who
Speaker 1: was raped. It's making fun of something else. But when
Speaker 1: you hear the word rape, your ear shut off. So
Speaker 1: I think it's a really really great thing. It's streaming
Speaker 1: on Netflix right now. No one paid me to say that.
Speaker 1: It's just from the hearts. Also, when you're watching stand
Speaker 1: up comedy specifically, it is normal, healthy and kind of
Speaker 1: good to be offended by it. I think it's a
Speaker 1: great thing because then it makes you really think about
Speaker 1: how why you think the way you think, What are
Speaker 1: your morals, what are your boundaries, what are your comfort levels?
Speaker 1: And it's good when you go to a comedy club.
Speaker 1: If you get offended, that probably means a comic did
Speaker 1: their job to be honest and and and made you
Speaker 1: think that's all like, it's okay. So that's why we're
Speaker 1: very protective over comedy and saying whatever you want, because, uh,
Speaker 1: because it's the one space where you fucking can and
Speaker 1: are encouraged to do. So. It was so nice, though
Speaker 1: I'm glad that, Oh, do you want to say anything
Speaker 1: about Well, I just wanted to thank everybody because, um,
Speaker 1: because I feel like we always call people out when
Speaker 1: they are terribly behaved and drunk messes at our shows.
Speaker 1: So I actually wanted to give Denver a thing. We
Speaker 1: performed two shows on St. Patrick's Stay Dude in Denver,
Speaker 1: in a major city, and you guys were so I
Speaker 1: don't mean I don't want to talk to you like
Speaker 1: your kids, but you were so fucking respectful and a
Speaker 1: well behaved audience, and I we were so prepared to
Speaker 1: walk into a real fucking nightmare doing a comedy on St.
Speaker 1: Patrick's said, like, I actually almost said no to performing
Speaker 1: on that day when our agent presented us, because I
Speaker 1: was so fearful of the bullshit that we were gonna
Speaker 1: have to put up with. And you it was actually
Speaker 1: one of the best. Yeah, fucking shows. There were nights
Speaker 1: of shows were already we've done. There was less strong
Speaker 1: kickling and that night than the other night. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so thank you so much. Uh, it's just it's it's
Speaker 1: hard because it's it's hard because it's an honor that
Speaker 1: you guys are great at these shows. Yeah, because it
Speaker 1: feels number one, it's a reflection on us, and if
Speaker 1: like our our people who listen to us is a
Speaker 1: percent of reflection on us. And so many times club
Speaker 1: owners will come to us and say, your fans are
Speaker 1: so nice. Yeah, it has and that's a really good
Speaker 1: compliment to get because you guys are a reflection on
Speaker 1: us and um and us as comedians. Absolutely, yeah, And
Speaker 1: it's and it's a reflection and it's it's it affects
Speaker 1: whether or not we'll be invited back to the club
Speaker 1: because there's too many comedians for people to be putting
Speaker 1: up with bullshit. It just doesn't happen UM. And then
Speaker 1: also one more thing I wanted to mention is it's March.
Speaker 1: It is and Metriosis Awareness Month. And uh, I saw
Speaker 1: when I we were on the road in my hotel room,
Speaker 1: I saw one of the best commercials for female health
Speaker 1: I've ever seen. I was just a woman in an
Speaker 1: O b g y n s office sitting and kind
Speaker 1: of downplaying the physical pain she felt, uh during sex
Speaker 1: and just in her lady parts in general. That's the
Speaker 1: umbrella term I'm using UM. And she had kind of
Speaker 1: this conscience behind her who was saying, like, what, No,
Speaker 1: it's not a little bit of pain, it's a lot
Speaker 1: of things. Tell tell your O B g y N
Speaker 1: how you're feeling, how you are uncomfortable all the time.
Speaker 1: And it was a commercial for speak endo dot com.
Speaker 1: And I just want to give them a shout out.
Speaker 1: Number one, if you if you're having pain, I guess
Speaker 1: go to speak endo dot com. And just I want
Speaker 1: to give them a shout out because there's I have
Speaker 1: never really seen a proper women's healthcare commercial and it
Speaker 1: was so refreshing to see that it didn't talk down,
Speaker 1: but it really encouraged to women to be like, hey,
Speaker 1: your pain is nothing to pooh pooh um. And I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed it. That is a great commercial. I was
Speaker 1: so happy to see so refreshing. Even hearing about it,
Speaker 1: I'm like, whoa, that is like ground bretaking. Absolutely, I
Speaker 1: gotta talk to my guy know about cramps after sex. Man,
Speaker 1: not every time, but sometimes, and it's so bad that
Speaker 1: I want to like die. It's don't don't you have
Speaker 1: like a sister, I had assists on my ovaries and
Speaker 1: then when my doctor operated to see if I assisted
Speaker 1: polycystic ovarian syndrome or endometriosis, and she said no. But
Speaker 1: I'm like, well then how come is pain? It's always
Speaker 1: good to get a second It's like I don't know
Speaker 1: for sure, I gotta ask someone else. So that's what
Speaker 1: I did. Like, I just was not happy with the
Speaker 1: with the answers. I was getting to my questions and
Speaker 1: so I just did a lot of research and I
Speaker 1: moved O B g U. I n's like it's I
Speaker 1: think it's important, like if you're not happy, like I
Speaker 1: think sometimes we think of doctors as like not a service,
Speaker 1: but they want are a service, and if you're not
Speaker 1: happy with the service you're getting, you switch doctors. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was so nice to be in Denver. We Kurd
Speaker 1: and I both bought our boyfriends, brought our boyfriends. Yes,
Speaker 1: James and I celebrated our two years years. It was
Speaker 1: really fun. And also because we have that the most
Speaker 1: amazing night ever with Chappelle, but like I feel like
Speaker 1: we all went not to war together, but like had
Speaker 1: this like crazy experience. But it was really nice and
Speaker 1: Stephen was like it was when I was hanging out
Speaker 1: with James, and it made me happy. It's like when
Speaker 1: your friend's moms get along, you know, and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: that makes me so happy. Yeah, I was like that
Speaker 1: that is good because I hate to be like you
Speaker 1: guys hang out, but you know, yeah, it's tolerable. And
Speaker 1: it seemed like it was you didn't hear me and
Speaker 1: Steven have sex, did you know? Yes? We only did
Speaker 1: it once, I think or twice. Well, yeah, we were
Speaker 1: after after the snow, after the Chappelle night though. I
Speaker 1: was so excited. Oh we were fast. Oh that night,
Speaker 1: I was like I probably fell a sleep. I was
Speaker 1: so I'm so fucking tired all the time you read
Speaker 1: an email or oh yeah, yeah, okay the subject line
Speaker 1: of this email. Oh before we get in really quick,
Speaker 1: speaking of emails, if you have a band or you
Speaker 1: know somebody with the band, and you get their permission,
Speaker 1: and all the music on Guys, we fucked is made
Speaker 1: by the listeners, and you guys are really fucking talented. Um.
Speaker 1: If you have a band, uh, send streaming links of
Speaker 1: your music to g WF podcast Music at gmail dot
Speaker 1: com and uh, that's Stephen will get that and he
Speaker 1: picks the music every week. And uh, you guys are
Speaker 1: really men talented. Okay. Oh also yeah, and then also
Speaker 1: we're we're cooking up we're brewing up something a live
Speaker 1: event um that we're looking to happen this summer. It
Speaker 1: wasn't actually inspired by an email we received from an
Speaker 1: awesome Jersey listener who will be contacting you. Um, but
Speaker 1: if you're interested in working with us on both it's
Speaker 1: a comedy slash philanthropic project that will be happening this
Speaker 1: summer in New York City. UM. So you would have
Speaker 1: to either a just be willing to volunteer your time
Speaker 1: for free or be be an intern for college credit. Uh,
Speaker 1: and it's something you can put on your resume. Um.
Speaker 1: You obviously be working very closely with Christina and myself,
Speaker 1: and you'll be doing like a lot of good work
Speaker 1: um for women and sexuality. And you'll also get to
Speaker 1: meet some pretty cool stand up comedians and enjoy like
Speaker 1: a lot of free perks that will definitely hook you
Speaker 1: up with. So please just email us that's sorry about
Speaker 1: last night's show at gmail dot com with subject intern
Speaker 1: or volunteer. Make sure to put that in all caps
Speaker 1: and use one of those words. And uh if you
Speaker 1: could include like a resume, your age, your location. You
Speaker 1: have to be able to either live or commute um
Speaker 1: to New York City for the summer months on your
Speaker 1: own dime. Unfortunately, again, we'll try to like give you
Speaker 1: as many free purpose but it'll be a good experience.
Speaker 1: Christina and I have done a lot of interning in
Speaker 1: our day and it's been some of the most fun experience,
Speaker 1: best learning experiences I've had. And it's also how I
Speaker 1: met like a ton of people who ended up helping
Speaker 1: me or just being like really great friends later in life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: interning is the fucking shit. Uh, And we have something
Speaker 1: really excited and we want a simple team and obviously
Speaker 1: you have to you have to be I would say
Speaker 1: a twenty one yeah, yeah, because we're it's going to
Speaker 1: be involved involving a lot of going to comedy clubs
Speaker 1: and bars and stuff. If you're under twenty one in college,
Speaker 1: we can consider you. But like you really drink because
Speaker 1: that will like serious. Oh my god, yeah that's shitty.
Speaker 1: Um yeah no. That one girl from Jersey at email,
Speaker 1: that's like, Hey, here's why I want to work with
Speaker 1: you guys, and here's some ideas that I have. Off
Speaker 1: the bat, I'm like, damn this. Yeah, I really appreciated
Speaker 1: the uh, the hustle and the and the great ideas
Speaker 1: and the and the thought you know. Okay, the subject
Speaker 1: loute of this email boyfriend ashamed of his pegging fantasy.
Speaker 1: Hi Christina and Karen. A big fan of the show,
Speaker 1: A long time listener. I'm twenty one and I've been
Speaker 1: dating my current boyfriend for about a year and a half.
Speaker 1: He's a great guy and I couldn't be happier with
Speaker 1: our relationship. We are both very sexually explorative and sex
Speaker 1: positive people. I love to keep open conversations about our
Speaker 1: sex life, trying new things and what can be improved,
Speaker 1: slash at it, slash change, etcetera. Uh. The other day
Speaker 1: I asked my boyfriend if he had any fantasies we
Speaker 1: haven't explored yet. He hesitated, but began to explain his
Speaker 1: fantasy about of being dominated and possibly pegged. We have
Speaker 1: done an before and I love it. So my response was, well,
Speaker 1: if he feels good in my butt, I better feel
Speaker 1: good in yours too, probably better because he has a prostate. Typically,
Speaker 1: he has always been the dumb and I am the sub.
Speaker 1: Those are the roles we naturally fell into, but I'm
Speaker 1: a hundred percent open to trying role reversal. It wasn't
Speaker 1: something I'd thought about before, but as he explained what
Speaker 1: he would want done, I found it very hot. I
Speaker 1: saw nothing wrong with this fantasy and it excited me.
Speaker 1: So I asked why it had taken him until now
Speaker 1: to tell me about it. He told me he was
Speaker 1: ashamed and he was afraid I might think he was gay.
Speaker 1: This broke my heart. He said that he thought about
Speaker 1: his fantasy of being dominated. He felt it was dirty
Speaker 1: and wrong, and he wished he could make the fantasy
Speaker 1: go away. He has always been accepting of any fantasy
Speaker 1: I've had, so it confused me as to why he
Speaker 1: couldn't accept his own. My question is is there anything
Speaker 1: I can do, Slash Sait to help him accept his
Speaker 1: own fantasies? Thanks so much. UM. I like to this
Speaker 1: email a lot because I think it's pretty common to
Speaker 1: have a fantasy and then be ashamed by it. But
Speaker 1: if it's a more extreme one, extreme is in the
Speaker 1: eye of the beholder. But also I think sometimes part
Speaker 1: of having a sexual kink is the shame, and you
Speaker 1: can kind of use the shame and turn it into
Speaker 1: this um humiliation sexual humiliation. And for me, I talk
Speaker 1: about the the couckled thing, CUK whatever fun you wanna
Speaker 1: call it, thing about you know a lot, but humiliation
Speaker 1: is part of it, and I don't necessarily want to
Speaker 1: lose that element of it. And I think it's I
Speaker 1: I talk about the whole fantasy thing a lot, but
Speaker 1: then the more specific things that I want to happen
Speaker 1: or want to get done, I kind of keep more
Speaker 1: to myself or more to Stephen. I don't tell Stephen
Speaker 1: as much. I guess it's more in my head, but
Speaker 1: part from me of why that's so hot is the
Speaker 1: humiliation factor and is a little bit of the shame,
Speaker 1: and I'm kind of turning it on its head and
Speaker 1: using it for the powers of shame for good. I
Speaker 1: guess you could say, so, yes, I think that there
Speaker 1: is a degree of shame that he might have just
Speaker 1: with you know, society is a bunch of fucking bullshit,
Speaker 1: and saying putting something up a guy's but is gay
Speaker 1: is Honestly, it's so fucking hacked to me, but I
Speaker 1: do it is a real thing that people think and feel.
Speaker 1: Uh spoil alert. Putting some up your ass. It doesn't
Speaker 1: make you gay, But that could take a second to
Speaker 1: come to terms with, because masculinity can be a rough thing,
Speaker 1: a rough role to kind of maintain. But I don't
Speaker 1: think it should break your heart as much as you know,
Speaker 1: because maybe that's part of the fantasy. Maybe he might
Speaker 1: or might not know that about the way he feels
Speaker 1: towards this fantasy. But you know, you don't have to
Speaker 1: You don't have to get him to a place where
Speaker 1: he no longer feels a shame and he's proud of
Speaker 1: and he talks to everybody about his pegging fan. You know,
Speaker 1: not that you're going there, but that dream you don't
Speaker 1: want you don't want to that guy, know, but also
Speaker 1: like he probably wants to keep it a little bit
Speaker 1: that way in a little taboo and a little one
Speaker 1: thing Karna and I or me personally have experienced about
Speaker 1: this podcast and talking about the sex stuff, it makes
Speaker 1: sex less titillating for me and less exciting for me,
Speaker 1: to be honest, talking about it all the time. Because
Speaker 1: part of the thing that I love about sex is
Speaker 1: the taboo nost is the is bad and I want
Speaker 1: to keep that up. And so your boyfriend might feel
Speaker 1: that same way towards the Peggan thing, Like maybe the
Speaker 1: shame is something that he can use for good and
Speaker 1: it's something that he's going to have in his head
Speaker 1: and it's part of what gets him off about it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And even like for me, like I'm not a fan
Speaker 1: of humiliation at all, but I certainly do like to
Speaker 1: be like dominated or you know, I like to be
Speaker 1: sometimes dominant and sometimes dominated. Um. And it could just
Speaker 1: be something like if he enjoys the physical pleasure of
Speaker 1: something in his butt, which is not crazy, it's it's
Speaker 1: actually very logical. Ricky Gervais actually says something about it
Speaker 1: in his comedy Special, which I loved that he said
Speaker 1: that because he's certainly not someone that you would think
Speaker 1: would be Yeah, we're just like kind of be like
Speaker 1: open to something like that. You you would think of
Speaker 1: regulure vas being like you're a faggot, you know, That's
Speaker 1: that's what you would think when you think Ricky Gervais.
Speaker 1: And that's why part of the reason I like that
Speaker 1: special was because he kind of like really was vulnerable
Speaker 1: in it. Um but physical pleasure. I feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes we talk about how much women aren't encouraged to
Speaker 1: enjoy the physicality of sex. Sometimes men aren't really encouraged
Speaker 1: to like treat themselves and let their freak flag, yeah,
Speaker 1: or just like do things just for a pleasure. I
Speaker 1: think that's like a human nature. Like we think like, oh,
Speaker 1: if something is feels good, we must be doing something wrong.
Speaker 1: And like for guys just physically how their bodies are
Speaker 1: set up, things feel good in their But yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the thing about it. Just do it something because it
Speaker 1: feels is good when you're not hurting anybody else. And
Speaker 1: it's also like no one knows what the funk is
Speaker 1: going on in your bedroom. So like the fact that
Speaker 1: like a societal view of something being quote unquote gay
Speaker 1: seeps into a bedroom where it's just you two, that's
Speaker 1: like a little disconcerted. Yeah, don't let that funk up
Speaker 1: your boner or your blady bone or your boy. But
Speaker 1: whatever the funk you got. Yeah, But as long as
Speaker 1: you received the information welcoming and openly and non judgmentally, Uh,
Speaker 1: you guys are going to be fine. Yeah. And I
Speaker 1: think approaching it like, oh my god, don't be a shame.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't take that rude. I'd be like, well, you
Speaker 1: know what, you have nothing to be because I'd like
Speaker 1: to do I think it's cool and I'm open to
Speaker 1: doing it with you. That's it in a conversation. And
Speaker 1: then I always say, with any sexual fantasy that gets introduced,
Speaker 1: start talking about it. Use it in your dirty talk first.
Speaker 1: I think that's a great gateway. It'll get you off.
Speaker 1: And then and then take baby steps. Prostates simulators start
Speaker 1: with something small. I cannot recommend this, and they are
Speaker 1: not paying me to say this, but the A narrows
Speaker 1: keelix is a Prostates uh simulator, and oh my god,
Speaker 1: it is. You want to see a guy come so
Speaker 1: hard that you get turned on. That's what you get,
Speaker 1: all right, Today's guest. Oh man, I am really honored
Speaker 1: to I'm really excited for you guys to hear this interview. Um.
Speaker 1: We interviewed a couple that I met a couple of
Speaker 1: years back when Stephen was doing a project with them.
Speaker 1: And they're two very lovely human being separate and together.
Speaker 1: I really liked them a lot. And uh, and they
Speaker 1: are the parents of a young transgender child. And I've
Speaker 1: been wanting to get this perspective for a really long
Speaker 1: time and maybe help other people understand. I learned a
Speaker 1: shipload from this interview about the how, how the notion
Speaker 1: of your kid is trans and gender? How did that
Speaker 1: pop up gradually as you were raising your child, How
Speaker 1: did you feel about that, How do people react to
Speaker 1: your kid? And Uh? It was really eye opening interview
Speaker 1: for us, and I hope it will do the same
Speaker 1: for you. Ladies and gentlemen. Please welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Jennifer and Sky to me to live, chose to love
Speaker 1: all my dreams? O, hand's all fire and so fire. Okay,
Speaker 1: we argue with Jennifer and Sky. I was so excited
Speaker 1: to interview you guys. UM, so how did you guys
Speaker 1: meet We'll start there. Oh, that's a great story. So
Speaker 1: how do we? We met in Mexico at a yoga retreat.
Speaker 1: Um I was a student there and Sky was teaching
Speaker 1: at it, and um I walked in with a girlfriend
Speaker 1: of mine. We were there because she had just finished
Speaker 1: chemo and was like a year out, and so she
Speaker 1: was like, I need to go out, time to do something.
Speaker 1: So and and I was in a marriage. It was
Speaker 1: very miserable. And how old were you at this time?
Speaker 1: Walks this angel? And why was it miserable for you?
Speaker 1: Just because the marriage? Yeah, just stay at a community.
Speaker 1: I was married to a narcissist, so like had so
Speaker 1: long to figure that out when a person I never
Speaker 1: even had heard the word until I was like yeah,
Speaker 1: and um, but so we walked into the there was
Speaker 1: like this plot, but that was the restaurant. And walked
Speaker 1: in and I saw him and I saw him see me,
Speaker 1: and I turned to my friend and I was like,
Speaker 1: let's just go somewhere else. It must have been really
Speaker 1: obvious on my face that you both were like hello,
Speaker 1: It was so weird. And wait, did you go to
Speaker 1: another class or did you take Sky's class? No? No No, no,
Speaker 1: why when we were there to eat lunch because we're
Speaker 1: all at the same damn retreat. Okay, so they had
Speaker 1: to saw each other the whole day, the whole week,
Speaker 1: the whole week. I didn't speak to him at all.
Speaker 1: Oh but you got did you make eyes we meet smies? Yeah?
Speaker 1: For sure. Did you not speak to him because you
Speaker 1: knew if you did that I would be troubled? Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: And my friend, what if he wasn't single? What you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, you don't want to put yourself
Speaker 1: through that? What if you had a crazy accent? Like hello?
Speaker 1: I always like, do you know what? Because finally when
Speaker 1: we started talking, he was gammering on and on, and
Speaker 1: I was like, thank god, there's a flaw, like very
Speaker 1: last do you talk about? Are you just nervous? Just nervous?
Speaker 1: I was like, you don't seem super talkative. Okay. When
Speaker 1: I'm comfortable, I think I'm way more low key okay, okay.
Speaker 1: And then with her, I was just yeah, I didn't
Speaker 1: know what else. I had to just fill the space.
Speaker 1: And you were single at the time, No, I was.
Speaker 1: I was the same thing you were married to. You're
Speaker 1: both in grabbing marriage. Narciss sister. Now, um no, I
Speaker 1: don't think necessarily a narcissist. I think of their mental
Speaker 1: little mess with president. Yeah, that can be really tricky. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was the hardest one. Yeah. Yeah, so you were
Speaker 1: were you you just gotten out of your marriage or
Speaker 1: you know. So we were still in it and it
Speaker 1: wasn't good. And so on the last day, like a
Speaker 1: group of us went out to dinner and we all
Speaker 1: went out dancing, and then we like ended up chatting
Speaker 1: and and it was kind of this thing of of like, hey,
Speaker 1: let's exchange numbers and let's talk. This is really weird
Speaker 1: whatever is going on, because it seemed like it was weird.
Speaker 1: You couldn't you couldn't take it away, but you could
Speaker 1: also feel it and it will always be there kind
Speaker 1: of thing. That was all I wanted him to do
Speaker 1: was like touch me because I was like, this is
Speaker 1: so crazy, but I didn't. Yeah, yeah, it was so crazy.
Speaker 1: So then he called me like three weeks later and
Speaker 1: he's like, I don't know what's going on or why
Speaker 1: aren't you even making this call or whatever, but I
Speaker 1: just wonder how you see our relationship. But I was like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't because we're both in relationships. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: but time will tell, Like obviously there's something there, but
Speaker 1: time will tell. Yeah. And then it was, you know,
Speaker 1: did you guys let each other in on the fact
Speaker 1: that the relationship that you were both in at the
Speaker 1: time weren't the best We talked about. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: a longer story with you know, like him, like, I
Speaker 1: wore my engagement ring on purpose, and so then he
Speaker 1: was like, just when we were like at the retreat,
Speaker 1: but you don't where it, like when you're doing yoga
Speaker 1: all week long, so you put it on at the end.
Speaker 1: And then he was like, are you married? Yeah, yep.
Speaker 1: And then when eventually, did you guys you started dating? No,
Speaker 1: so he lived across country. I mean, it's it's really sorted.
Speaker 1: So yeah. And so like a year and a half later,
Speaker 1: kind of we tied up in contact during that period
Speaker 1: or a little bit on enough. So there was definitely
Speaker 1: some texting back and forth. My marriage was breaking up,
Speaker 1: my dad was dying at the same time, so I
Speaker 1: was really focused on that and his marriage was breaking up.
Speaker 1: So it was kind of back and forth and texting
Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. And then finally it was
Speaker 1: and I was I was divorced before she was, so
Speaker 1: my sense of freedom and like hate girls. Yeah, yeah, totally, yeah,
Speaker 1: because you're like, yeah, I'm like I'm in a really town. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Did you find it easier to get a divorce knowing
Speaker 1: that there was someone out there who you felt connected with?
Speaker 1: I was getting divorced way before that, But but it
Speaker 1: didn't make the process easier knowing that he existed. Or Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true, because then it's not just winning a job
Speaker 1: when you know you have one waiting and you can
Speaker 1: like slam the door and be like funk this place right,
Speaker 1: you know. And honestly, for me, I've never been like
Speaker 1: a hop from relationship to relationship person. So it wasn't.
Speaker 1: But what was crazy was because my dad was dying.
Speaker 1: I fat made everything easier because I could see I
Speaker 1: was very present, so very much like everything was black
Speaker 1: and white, and people were giving me ship, you know,
Speaker 1: like it was like I was breaking up a business partnership,
Speaker 1: I was going through a divorce, and my dad just
Speaker 1: dying at this time. Yeah, it's a lot, And so
Speaker 1: what made it easy was having just very black and
Speaker 1: white perspective of what I would deal with and what
Speaker 1: I wouldn't deal with and the minute I was pushed
Speaker 1: outside of that comfort comfort zone, it was we're not
Speaker 1: doing this anymore, right, So it was it was a
Speaker 1: very clear line kind of amazing. That's great, that's good
Speaker 1: because so many people don't have the line to find
Speaker 1: for themselves. And then you just you just stay in
Speaker 1: something and not be all over the place. So when
Speaker 1: you finally started dating, was it like oh my god,
Speaker 1: because like that's a lot of build up, even if
Speaker 1: it's just like an interaction and with energy that you're like,
Speaker 1: that's something's there. I don't know, that's weird. And then
Speaker 1: a year and a half later, how excited we're both
Speaker 1: I know, I mean this sex was really good. I
Speaker 1: was gonna say that's probably amazing all day, all night.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, because it's so funny because Steven
Speaker 1: and I met on a music video, but he had
Speaker 1: a girlfriend, so I was like, okay, no, but there's
Speaker 1: this thing that I'm like whatever. And then when we
Speaker 1: went on a business lunch, like this is a date
Speaker 1: because you just told me you got down so um so,
Speaker 1: so we're trying to be cool and subtle and so cool,
Speaker 1: it was not at all. Um So, how long into
Speaker 1: dating then did you guys get married, Like, what's the evolution?
Speaker 1: We're not married? Oh you're not married? Oh oh I
Speaker 1: like that? Why not? Because the marriage is kind of
Speaker 1: was really it felt really conformist to me. I feel
Speaker 1: that way, but I didn't have any other reasoning. But
Speaker 1: you were married. You kind of know you were in it.
Speaker 1: You really say that with some and in that marriage,
Speaker 1: and it probably was because it was that marriage. I
Speaker 1: felt very caged. I mean, this is a person who
Speaker 1: would like go through my calendar because we didn't have
Speaker 1: phones at the time, right, so I go through my
Speaker 1: calendar and then show up at my client meetings and
Speaker 1: be like, oh, I was just walking by, you know
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, I mean he stocks his current ex wife,
Speaker 1: so we know each there. Oh we oh my god,
Speaker 1: Oh my god. So and then what that was that
Speaker 1: a mutual decision or did you kind of both talk
Speaker 1: it out and you're like, I really know if marriage
Speaker 1: means anything? Yeah, you know, I think we just didn't
Speaker 1: see what the point was. Yeah, you know, because it
Speaker 1: really just statistic kind of works against you. And yeah,
Speaker 1: what are that there are benefits to it that are
Speaker 1: mainly taxes financial? Yeah, what are the that is yeah,
Speaker 1: but we both are have our own businesses, so I
Speaker 1: think the LLC yeah, and I think our cps are
Speaker 1: pretty relieved that we don't have combined oh of finances.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah nice. Okay, So then when did you side
Speaker 1: to have a kid or was it an accident? Okay,
Speaker 1: one Halloween night. I'll mean it's actually true. Really that's fun. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but that I mean that stuff's good. So you were
Speaker 1: at Halloween, you were together, you were devis dating. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like he had moved here. I mean there was a
Speaker 1: lot so he. I got sick of the long distance
Speaker 1: relationships and asked her if she would move to the
Speaker 1: East Coast and she said no way. They're like, okay, cool,
Speaker 1: I'll come here. Let's talk about the East Coast. It
Speaker 1: was a little little teenage one and it was in
Speaker 1: a very conservative state. And I was like, cool, you'd
Speaker 1: be out there in November. If she said yes, Cool,
Speaker 1: I didn't have to sell the house or sell my
Speaker 1: business or do make those bigger changes. And when she
Speaker 1: said no chance in hell, I was like, well, I
Speaker 1: just ordered the U haul so I'm packing. And then
Speaker 1: you were like all right, yeah, how often would you
Speaker 1: guys see each other when you were long distance. Well,
Speaker 1: so it's really I mean I was going back and
Speaker 1: forth to home for my dad for chemo he and
Speaker 1: he was dying. I mean, he wasn't going to make
Speaker 1: it as super rare type of cancer. So I would
Speaker 1: go there and then go out to see him. And
Speaker 1: then he finally came out and met my dad right
Speaker 1: before he passed away, which was really great. That was
Speaker 1: really kind of wonderful, um, because my dad was a
Speaker 1: great guy. And I think you guys would have really
Speaker 1: enjoyed each other's time. Um with sundering, I know, I
Speaker 1: seemed like these giants is crazy. We need this as
Speaker 1: long as no fires start? Oh my god that that
Speaker 1: happens a lot when it's dry. Oh you know, I
Speaker 1: did see some fire warnings on the way up to
Speaker 1: this park yesterday. It was like chance of fire, like
Speaker 1: throw a cigarette out the way, but you, um, okay.
Speaker 1: So then so it was Halloween, yeah, and we were
Speaker 1: having said were you what was what were you? What
Speaker 1: did you guys go? As it's very important to I
Speaker 1: don't even remember that wasn't the Deadla Smarts once? Oh?
Speaker 1: That was? That was? Didn't that's birthday party? Right? Was I?
Speaker 1: Amnion a giant yellowmeber. Yeah, you were that scary white
Speaker 1: witch with the red and it was you know, as
Speaker 1: Oliver Pinterest, that thing with the shattered up okay, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: square eyes. And then you just like we're looking at
Speaker 1: each other from across the room all Halloween night and
Speaker 1: you're looking at that let's jump off yellow man. And
Speaker 1: so I mean that was like a year and a
Speaker 1: half after we've been dating. Yeah yeah, yeah, but still,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know we were together. Um, so, so
Speaker 1: you're pregnant and then you had a baby, and then
Speaker 1: how like this we got pregnant and then at seven
Speaker 1: months he said, do you think you should move in
Speaker 1: with me? You weren't. No, oh so you hadn't moved
Speaker 1: across the country had but I made him live in
Speaker 1: a different house. And what was your reasoning for that?
Speaker 1: So that he could prove to me that he had
Speaker 1: a ship together. And also it's nice when you were
Speaker 1: moving to a new place to kind of be on
Speaker 1: your own a little bit, so you're your own on
Speaker 1: the other person, your own life. Yeah, you need your
Speaker 1: own friend, because I know so many people who move
Speaker 1: and then like their life is really kind of just
Speaker 1: an extension and it's like that's I think it's a
Speaker 1: way to kill a relationship. Oh my god, somebody else's
Speaker 1: life and that don't have your own. Yeah, your grand's
Speaker 1: boyfriend lives like a block away from you, like he
Speaker 1: lives down the street. Yeah, like that's so cool, and everyone,
Speaker 1: are you moving in together? It was like absolutely not.
Speaker 1: You got your own place to retire to when you
Speaker 1: want to be alone, Like, get out of here. My
Speaker 1: aunt and her boyfriend have been together for thirty years
Speaker 1: and they live a mile apart. Really, that's my dream.
Speaker 1: My dream is actually because I'm in New York, my
Speaker 1: dream that's a New York dream apartment building but different
Speaker 1: apartments with an l and it will be elevator floors
Speaker 1: but it will work really well. Yeah, that's my dream. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It so, so you guys got right, And then so
Speaker 1: seven months and you're like, maybe we should because then
Speaker 1: I can help you and then if the baby cries,
Speaker 1: I don't got to jump in a car just because
Speaker 1: we're going to compare it, right, And were you there
Speaker 1: was a question I was actually like, I don't know
Speaker 1: if this is well as I was going to ask
Speaker 1: like were you immediately like yes, of course, or were
Speaker 1: you like really, and is it because the relationship that
Speaker 1: you had been in previously, it just kind of wasn't
Speaker 1: what you would wanted, but you didn't realize it right away.
Speaker 1: I was just fine, Like I was happy with I
Speaker 1: owned my place. He had dogs, and he was renting
Speaker 1: this farmat kind of thing, and so I would have
Speaker 1: to move there and become a landlord things like that,
Speaker 1: you know. So it's like I have a kind of
Speaker 1: good now right right. The guys lived together now right, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: but even if you didn't, I'd be like, that's fine. Um,
Speaker 1: and so, and then you had a baby, James, and
Speaker 1: then talk about so, how how is it your your
Speaker 1: child is trans and what how does that? I've never
Speaker 1: talked to a parent of a of a transcape before,
Speaker 1: but I know when I first met you guys, you
Speaker 1: referred to James as like your unicorn, and I just like,
Speaker 1: but the way you of James is like that, it's beautiful,
Speaker 1: and like you guys are such a beautiful couple and
Speaker 1: you're like, honestly like the coolest family I've ever met.
Speaker 1: And uh, and we encounter a lot of families and
Speaker 1: parents which just aren't accepting. So I'm I'm curious when
Speaker 1: James was younger, what did you when did you notice
Speaker 1: maybe something was different and unique. She's pretty willful, So
Speaker 1: she came out willfully. Yeah, I mean she came out
Speaker 1: in her own way the way she was going to
Speaker 1: do it. And really from the get go, I mean,
Speaker 1: before she could verbally communicate, right like, she was like
Speaker 1: a wilful person. And so we and we signed before
Speaker 1: she spoke, So we signed until she was about to
Speaker 1: sign language. So we did as l before she could speak.
Speaker 1: And and but when you're doing that, you don't think
Speaker 1: to teach somebody the genders, right, right, So that hurt
Speaker 1: and so so she um, we did all the other
Speaker 1: stuff right, So she spoke like seventy five words, and
Speaker 1: you know, and we got her into preschool and she
Speaker 1: started talking, and I mean we have pictures of it.
Speaker 1: But she came into the room one day and she
Speaker 1: was like, you know, I want to be like money,
Speaker 1: and I was like, what do you mean. She goes,
Speaker 1: you know, like your shirt, and I was like, she goes,
Speaker 1: I want to dress And I was like, okay, we'll
Speaker 1: just go into my closet and grab a tank top
Speaker 1: and put it on and I'll turn it into a
Speaker 1: dress for you, and so we have pictures of it.
Speaker 1: She had this you like little tank toime she's wear
Speaker 1: in this little trucker hat of mine, and and she
Speaker 1: just loved it. She loved it and so. But but
Speaker 1: play and dress up is a total natural part of
Speaker 1: human development, So we just never think like, oh, maybe
Speaker 1: James is my brother used to dress it and dresses
Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah, yeah, and he's just dude. But
Speaker 1: you know, kids in gender too, Like I remember when
Speaker 1: I was little, I my mom used to be like, christ,
Speaker 1: none of my barbies would wear shirts because I'm like,
Speaker 1: what the if? The boys don't have to wear shirts
Speaker 1: and girls not to wear shirts? And I never wanted
Speaker 1: to wear a shirt when I was a kid, and
Speaker 1: she was like, you will later, so and she kind
Speaker 1: of dug that in. But I remember thinking I could
Speaker 1: probably at the age of four or five. I'm like,
Speaker 1: that's so weird that you learned that different genders are
Speaker 1: treated differently. And that's so odd as a kid because
Speaker 1: you're like, well why why you know? Yeah, and we
Speaker 1: still can't answer that question. Yeah, even as adults. It's
Speaker 1: like why did that even happen? Right now? No, it's
Speaker 1: more of a conversation. Um, but then I would say. So.
Speaker 1: Then we were at Target one day and she was
Speaker 1: like eighteen months old, and you know, like wheeled around
Speaker 1: the corner and she just stopped. She goes, my, what
Speaker 1: is that? And I couldn't see because I was behind her.
Speaker 1: And so come around the corner and it's the Barbie aisle.
Speaker 1: That's bright fucking pink from Florida ceiling Barbie. And I
Speaker 1: was like Castleton, yeah, And I was like, oh, it's Barbie.
Speaker 1: I don't love Barbies. And I was allowed one Barbie
Speaker 1: when I was younger, and it was the black Barbie
Speaker 1: because my mom was really into like teach me about diversity.
Speaker 1: So I still have my one Barbie. She really didn't
Speaker 1: want to have any so she said, if you're going
Speaker 1: to have any, it will be somebody who is not Caucasian,
Speaker 1: is it? Because Barbie represents like the ultimate ideal feminine
Speaker 1: kind of thing and her measurements aren't realistic, right, and
Speaker 1: she's and she's a feminist, you know, like my mom
Speaker 1: is a feminist, and so you know, she's she's actually
Speaker 1: kind of incredible, and so she she was just like,
Speaker 1: absolutely not, it's not going to happen, and so she
Speaker 1: had I had this one. So that was kind of
Speaker 1: my reaction was, you know, seeing's Barbie. But luckily she
Speaker 1: never got super into Barbie. She got very into Monster High,
Speaker 1: which is cool. I was that a shot a TV
Speaker 1: show or a movie. It's is it's these they're all
Speaker 1: they're kind of laying all over the monsters Barbies basically,
Speaker 1: but they're misfits, like the big guys like, but they're
Speaker 1: they're misfits and they're nice to each other and they're
Speaker 1: very accepting it, like the whole storyline. I'm like, nice
Speaker 1: she knew herself, yes, really, So then that was kind
Speaker 1: of And then we were at a kid's store one
Speaker 1: day and she saw too twos and wings for the
Speaker 1: first time and she was like, mom, what are those? Yeah?
Speaker 1: She was all so like, that's such a pure, genuine
Speaker 1: like excitement. I mean, especially when when you're a child,
Speaker 1: it's like you just if something lights you up, you say,
Speaker 1: you talk about it. There's no holding back. It's pure,
Speaker 1: it's not there's no other angle other than like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, this is really cool and I love it
Speaker 1: and it's great and they're excited. And so she was like,
Speaker 1: can I have that, totally totally have that, like the problem.
Speaker 1: So that was like the early early stuff. And but
Speaker 1: still did you have any questions of like, oh maybe
Speaker 1: maybe she'll uh at one point when she gets a
Speaker 1: little older, star questioning like you know, why do I
Speaker 1: like the things that typically lourels like or no I
Speaker 1: just think so No. I mean it was because because
Speaker 1: when you're dealing with a kid and you're a first
Speaker 1: time parent and you're not early childhood education expert, which
Speaker 1: we aren't, you know, you just kind of like do
Speaker 1: the thing right and you kind of go with it.
Speaker 1: So for me, it was more like this is just play,
Speaker 1: and this is play in a creative mind. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she would sneak in and get ahold of your makeup
Speaker 1: and like do her face. It was bad because she
Speaker 1: was right, yeah, come out looking absolutely crazy, but you
Speaker 1: know there's kind of awesome high heels as she could
Speaker 1: put her foot in and walk. She would. She was
Speaker 1: emulating how I dressed, right, Yeah, yeah, there was no
Speaker 1: like she was leaning heavily towards like female gender criteria. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And then and then what
Speaker 1: about like how old was she when did she ask
Speaker 1: to have the pronoun change or did you just start
Speaker 1: saying it? Or how is that? How old is she now?
Speaker 1: She's seven a half okay, yeah, so that's why I
Speaker 1: pulled this up. So it was interesting. So then we
Speaker 1: were moving, like say into the three and four age range,
Speaker 1: and so there was a lot of um still dress
Speaker 1: up all the time, and and you know, like I
Speaker 1: still was like picking up off it that I thought
Speaker 1: were cool for a boy, you know, and she was like, yeah, fine, whatever,
Speaker 1: but she just was more towards the other stuff, which
Speaker 1: is fine. So then she would kind of fight it
Speaker 1: in the morning. So I was like, time to go
Speaker 1: to school. She wouldn't. She had too astumes than clothes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it took a little bit of an effort to
Speaker 1: get her dressed to go to school. She wanted to
Speaker 1: wear the costumes right, right, but it's Manta story and
Speaker 1: they don't allow it, right, so she couldn't do that.
Speaker 1: As like a lot of kids want to wear like
Speaker 1: I wanted to wear my Princess Jasmine onesie pajamas to
Speaker 1: school all done. Yeah, you see, like especially like those
Speaker 1: Disney princess costumes. You'll see kids walking around like the
Speaker 1: mall and and I'm like, that looks fun jealous that
Speaker 1: I don't know that sense of freedom. I think you
Speaker 1: can get it in an adult side. I mean I would,
Speaker 1: but it's just like not as cute and a thirty
Speaker 1: two year old Yeah, it's when someone yeah, so funny.
Speaker 1: So and she also we would watch a lot of
Speaker 1: Project Runway together, a great show. And so she had
Speaker 1: grown her hair out, and she was about four, and
Speaker 1: she had grown her hair out, and one I guess
Speaker 1: in one of the shows they were giving haircuts or something,
Speaker 1: or they did for one of the models, and so
Speaker 1: she locked herself in the bathroom and chopped half her
Speaker 1: hair off. And so I got and I was out
Speaker 1: of town. And I actually by then because she had
Speaker 1: also said things to me, I was in the bathroom.
Speaker 1: All the bad things happen when I leave town. So
Speaker 1: so that actually, like in my heart hurt a little
Speaker 1: because I was like, she had already said a lot
Speaker 1: by then, by the time she was four, that she
Speaker 1: was a girl and we made a misteak and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. And when you, as you guys, made a mistake,
Speaker 1: I kind of had a girl. All I'm not a boy. Okay.
Speaker 1: She was like one time we were driving to school
Speaker 1: and she looked at me, and she was three and
Speaker 1: a half baby, and she was like, mom, mommy, you
Speaker 1: know you should have had a girl. And I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I said what do you mean, I go,
Speaker 1: do you mean that I should have another baby and
Speaker 1: it should be a girl, or that when you were
Speaker 1: born you should have been a girl. And and she
Speaker 1: said the second one, that I should have been a girl.
Speaker 1: I said, well, you've been telling me now for a
Speaker 1: long time that you're a girl, So aren't you a girl?
Speaker 1: She was like, well yeah, I'm like, well then I
Speaker 1: always thought you were a girl. Like I don't think
Speaker 1: I need to have another baby or have you again
Speaker 1: in order for you to be a girl. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: that was kind of good because there's a lot of
Speaker 1: you know, it's one of those issues where if I
Speaker 1: start reading about it and what people say, you were
Speaker 1: just not as accepting and read about like asshole parents
Speaker 1: that grew up in it, believing something, you know whatever
Speaker 1: that prevented them from loving their kids to you know, circumstantially, Um,
Speaker 1: I just don't I just don't get how parent could
Speaker 1: could do that to their kid. But also like it's
Speaker 1: they also I hear them say in interviews like how
Speaker 1: can you know what your gender is when you're that young?
Speaker 1: But clearly, well you know, did you knew? Yeah? I knew? Yeah.
Speaker 1: And that's that's the thing. It's like, well, it's like
Speaker 1: the gay straight argument too. It's like, well, when did
Speaker 1: you know you were straight? Well, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: just so you assume that it's this default setting, but
Speaker 1: that's not true because it seems yeah, exactly, it's it's wild. Well.
Speaker 1: It's also interesting because I think my like go to
Speaker 1: in my mind, if I had a kid and they
Speaker 1: were kind of doing like born biologically a boy and
Speaker 1: then doing things that were more like feminine, I would
Speaker 1: probably be like, oh, maybe my kid is gay. So
Speaker 1: did you ever have that kind I feel like that's
Speaker 1: the go to and and sometimes people just have trouble
Speaker 1: understanding what it is to be trans honestly, Well, that
Speaker 1: that brings up the I think a distinction between you know,
Speaker 1: what sexuality is gender right different, and homosexuality any line
Speaker 1: is way different than what somebody's identifying as as a gender.
Speaker 1: So you know, I think for us it was just
Speaker 1: it was really simple because because sex isn't even like
Speaker 1: that's there's nothing. There's no content, there's there's not even
Speaker 1: a reality in our world. You know, she's seven, Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: like you know, have a sense of sexuality that early usually,
Speaker 1: but gender that makes a lot of sense sense even
Speaker 1: though that does have to But then does it have
Speaker 1: to do with organs? Now it really doesn't because then
Speaker 1: you're tacking sexuality on a gender. So it's like it's
Speaker 1: it's really an interesting well, but it's really what's crazy
Speaker 1: if it's no matter what, it's still in our conversation,
Speaker 1: like in our DNA, right, because she came out of
Speaker 1: her room one time, and she was like three, she
Speaker 1: used to walk around naked all the time. She's kind
Speaker 1: of going through more of a like a stealth phase now,
Speaker 1: but she would. She came rolling out of her room,
Speaker 1: she was all naked, and she goes, he guess what,
Speaker 1: I'm just a girl with penis? Like who cares? So
Speaker 1: Like she was already aware that the penis is not
Speaker 1: meant for but what what a beautiful sense of self
Speaker 1: she's always had. That's really cool. And and I don't know,
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. I only know. The only
Speaker 1: kid I know is my nephew. Like actively you know,
Speaker 1: a little kid. And he doesn't mean he's only too
Speaker 1: so he doesn't really have any grasping of that. He
Speaker 1: does as strongly. I don't know. He knows certain things
Speaker 1: he likes, but other things he's like, I don't know yet.
Speaker 1: Give me a second and I figure it out. But
Speaker 1: what about so bathrooms, which does she have to use? No,
Speaker 1: so we're in like the Shanar law of you know,
Speaker 1: sexual diversity orl the LGB, like, because I'm seeing all
Speaker 1: over over the state, it's always just the bathroom signs
Speaker 1: will just say whatever and it will be like the
Speaker 1: half of the symbols put together, like that's can we
Speaker 1: just do that everywhere? Because like no one's they really
Speaker 1: think bad is happening where everybody's fine and we'll all
Speaker 1: live and it's true and and all the hyperbole around it,
Speaker 1: the rhetoric around it is just for game. Feel kind
Speaker 1: of sick to my stomach. Um, you know, I think
Speaker 1: it's it scares me. You know. What's really really hard
Speaker 1: as apparent for me as a parent of a trans child,
Speaker 1: was like just reading the statistics and reading about you know,
Speaker 1: how high the suicide attempt statistics are. That threw me
Speaker 1: over the edge. Yeah, it's not, it's really not. And also,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I mean not to but there's
Speaker 1: a lot of the murder statistics are high, I mean
Speaker 1: primarily especially for color. But it's there there, I mean
Speaker 1: really like it's awful, you know, and it's just stems
Speaker 1: from this place of not understanding. But it's weird that
Speaker 1: people's immediate reaction to not understanding something is fear and
Speaker 1: then acting out of that. I always go at the
Speaker 1: xment the X men, I think is amazing and it
Speaker 1: really could reminds me of a lot of realized stuff,
Speaker 1: as specifically the plight of the trams person. I think
Speaker 1: it's great stuff. But yeah, um so with how so
Speaker 1: if it's weird, because this is a very accepting place,
Speaker 1: I feel like we are very accepting to be around here.
Speaker 1: So like when you travel or I don't know if
Speaker 1: you guys do travel a lot with James, is there
Speaker 1: like weird reactions that you have to deal with? Or well,
Speaker 1: we just got her passport changed. Oh cool? Was that
Speaker 1: probably really exciting? Well, I think we kind of snuck
Speaker 1: under the radar because you just did it online and
Speaker 1: it was no big deal. It's not like they're like,
Speaker 1: we're still working on it. It's still a process. Okay,
Speaker 1: we were just updating. So there is there actually is
Speaker 1: a whole process. Hi baby, and you need to tell
Speaker 1: me something. Okay, we were on the passport process. There
Speaker 1: is a process. Um. So we're part of a larger
Speaker 1: parents of transgender children in a secret group in Facebook.
Speaker 1: And that's kind of great because it's like from all
Speaker 1: over the world. That's all things every day, yeah, in
Speaker 1: that group in the kiss yeah, oh, from the parents
Speaker 1: every do you mind sharing, like, because I just want
Speaker 1: people to realize or getting, you know, have a clue
Speaker 1: as to what life can be like and what the
Speaker 1: hurdles can be and help I mean things other people
Speaker 1: can be about. People can be really gross. There are
Speaker 1: people who there are children who have been murdered by
Speaker 1: the non accepting parents children I mean teens. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: and then suicide the parents and you know, so I
Speaker 1: think that you know, and the suicides are prevalent um,
Speaker 1: you know, and then and then you know, there's just um,
Speaker 1: there was some big thing that went around where something
Speaker 1: they were like a lot of um, non supporters who
Speaker 1: got into the group somehow. So we try and keep
Speaker 1: it prediction. Oh my gosh. Yeah, well it's you know,
Speaker 1: the bathroom with the back, going back to the bathroom ocean.
Speaker 1: It's just like the reasoning, it's it's got to be
Speaker 1: crazy from your position for thank you. Sometimes, like as
Speaker 1: the parents of a kid that you just are in
Speaker 1: love with and whose trands when you hear it in
Speaker 1: the news about politicians talking you just want to go
Speaker 1: into the female bathroom you're going to rape people, yeah,
Speaker 1: and molestan and then you have the yeah, yes, who's
Speaker 1: trying to hit on and and then the violence in
Speaker 1: the trans community against like crimes. I'm just like that
Speaker 1: wouldn't make me want to punch all the walls in
Speaker 1: my house every day, and like, yeah, the only I mean,
Speaker 1: I do have an issue with all gender bathrooms, but
Speaker 1: because it's because it's straight men though, I mean, but
Speaker 1: I mean that's what that's the enemy. I don't care
Speaker 1: true people or women, but I mean there is a
Speaker 1: real especially from doing this podcast, like I do have
Speaker 1: a I have an anxiety at present that wasn't there
Speaker 1: four years ago with straight men for sure. Yeah, just
Speaker 1: knowing more. Well, that's the thing is like women are
Speaker 1: women and trans women are being attacked by straight men
Speaker 1: and bathrooms. It's not the other way around. Yeah, isn't
Speaker 1: this stistic? Zero? I did because we were trying to
Speaker 1: find like, you know, trying to clap back and when
Speaker 1: to give armors of the knowledge. Um. So have you
Speaker 1: guys ever have you faced any um uh, have you
Speaker 1: had to face any assholes reactions? Not? Oh? Well, when
Speaker 1: she was little, it was so kind of you know
Speaker 1: those moments when you're like, God, I wish I could
Speaker 1: catch my boyfriend cheating on me or something. That would
Speaker 1: be so kick ass. Because so this was like this
Speaker 1: guy's I feel like that, you know what it is
Speaker 1: for me. I'm like, I wish I would just spit
Speaker 1: on me so I could have a reason to like,
Speaker 1: you know, push that totally. So this was this was
Speaker 1: that moment. So she used to wear these sparkly shoes
Speaker 1: and we were down on the mall and she was
Speaker 1: dancing around and this guy was sitting there like showing
Speaker 1: his friends or something his sucking yellow hummer across the street.
Speaker 1: You know, like, man, it was great. And so then
Speaker 1: somebody's pointed to James, but I'm standing like no further
Speaker 1: away from them, and I am from you and they're like,
Speaker 1: what about you know, what's going on that kid? And
Speaker 1: he goes, I don't know, but she's gonna be or
Speaker 1: he's going to be really fucked up when he's when
Speaker 1: he's older. And I looked at him and I go,
Speaker 1: he's gonna be just fine. Like we didn't know if
Speaker 1: she hadn't transition yet, you know. So but that was
Speaker 1: that moment. That's really like the only outwardly asshole moment.
Speaker 1: Now we live in a very liberal town where I
Speaker 1: think people are like tripping over themselves to be politically
Speaker 1: correct here. So the things that I noticed, like little
Speaker 1: subtle e's that I noticed, our things like oh, we've
Speaker 1: only been invited to one birthday party this year at
Speaker 1: in the classroom. That's a little and I'm like, god, yeah,
Speaker 1: like all of a sudden, you notice that's happening or
Speaker 1: you know, and I kind of think, you know it.
Speaker 1: We'll see how how much fortitude people that we know
Speaker 1: have when she starts hooking up with people. I was
Speaker 1: gonna says, have any questions arose from James's classmates, So
Speaker 1: one of them are yet do they know they do it? Well?
Speaker 1: So seven they kind of get starting and getting curious.
Speaker 1: There are some kids in her classroom who knew her
Speaker 1: when she was presenting his mail, and so she got
Speaker 1: they've you know, once chased around. But there it's different.
Speaker 1: It's not like that horrible bullying. It's curiosity, Like I can,
Speaker 1: I can be kind of compassionate around it because it's like, well,
Speaker 1: if they don't know, and they're just going off of
Speaker 1: I think they're learning. I think at seven they're learning,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, they're learning to be jackasses,
Speaker 1: you know. And so they had a situation where a
Speaker 1: girl who she had been in class with before asked
Speaker 1: her to see her penis. And this boy, who was
Speaker 1: an older boy who's also her mentor in the classroom,
Speaker 1: had no idea, and he was like what you know,
Speaker 1: So this whole thing went down where the mentor didn't
Speaker 1: know that Okay, yeah, the mentor was maybe eight or nine,
Speaker 1: and the young girl was the seven year old as well.
Speaker 1: But because James's mentor, Yeah, so they have in their
Speaker 1: classrooms they have three grades, so the older kids, the
Speaker 1: older kids mentor the younger kids. But he had no
Speaker 1: idea that she yeah, that she ever that she had
Speaker 1: a penis, and so so James was like, no, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to show you that, and don't ask me again.
Speaker 1: And then I guess she asked again. The little girl
Speaker 1: asked again, and she said no, now I'm going to
Speaker 1: go tell on you. And it was really great and
Speaker 1: she handled it well. But we're seeing now after the fact,
Speaker 1: there are some things that are coming up just like her,
Speaker 1: she's resisting doing her work and stuff like that, and
Speaker 1: I think she's like locked up about it, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like there's how could there not be
Speaker 1: psychological repercussions from that? And we're just hoping it's okay
Speaker 1: because we're adults, right. Yeah. Well, because for James is like,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna be me, like, why why would anybody
Speaker 1: have a problem? Why do you need to look in
Speaker 1: my pants? Yea? And why asked me that? That's why
Speaker 1: now I'm getting treated differently. Yeah, so she you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's that those are those subtle things that I
Speaker 1: think that if you don't think to pay attention to.
Speaker 1: And I just learned on the other side of it,
Speaker 1: like I wasn't like ready for that, but I look
Speaker 1: at like, you know, there's no event, right, but that
Speaker 1: could be a very big event to anybody, so I
Speaker 1: have to I can't take it that for granted. Yeah,
Speaker 1: are you guys doing I'm sure you guys have just
Speaker 1: you know, loaded up on research and with parenting. Is
Speaker 1: there any are there any resources for parents who who
Speaker 1: think their kids, you know, their kids are really young
Speaker 1: and it's possible that they might be trands and how
Speaker 1: do you I love there's a great book that I
Speaker 1: read and it's called Becoming Nicole. And what I love
Speaker 1: about it is that the parents were conservative, and it
Speaker 1: was they had adopted twins, and one of the twin
Speaker 1: boys and by the same age, same timeline, that too,
Speaker 1: the one of the twins started presenting as a girl.
Speaker 1: And the guy. You know this, the guy's story is
Speaker 1: so great because he is um, he was like a
Speaker 1: you know, not a super highly educated person, and he
Speaker 1: figured out for himself that he needed to be so
Speaker 1: he like pushed himself through graduate school and then had
Speaker 1: these kids. And you know, like he really talks like
Speaker 1: the doctor's writing the book, but it talks about like
Speaker 1: this conservative, conservative person becoming a really supportive parent for
Speaker 1: this kid. And I try to hang it out to everybody.
Speaker 1: That's great because it really is like the whole you know,
Speaker 1: the whole lifespan of what they went through and the
Speaker 1: science behind this behind it, so it's not just like
Speaker 1: an autobiography in a sense, but you know there's actual
Speaker 1: medical knowledge to be gained from it on Yeah, what
Speaker 1: kind of you know, what the processes through hormone replacement
Speaker 1: when they were having those, and then like the roadblocks
Speaker 1: that they went through, because you know, they're kind of
Speaker 1: pioneers to right and how would you know? Yeah? Absolutely,
Speaker 1: And it wasn't that long ago, so that's cool. So
Speaker 1: Nicole is probably twenty right now, so it wasn't that
Speaker 1: long ago. But it's really you know, it's a it's
Speaker 1: a that is a great I mean, even for yourselves
Speaker 1: to read it. If these are part of your audience,
Speaker 1: you know, like the trans community is part of your audience.
Speaker 1: I think it's it's just really cool to be able
Speaker 1: to have something to to lean back on and also
Speaker 1: give people too as well who are really doubting it, right,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And what's the what's the
Speaker 1: legal age right now where you can start hormone? So
Speaker 1: it's not really about legality as I understand. It's so
Speaker 1: what they do though, as you in the book, they
Speaker 1: talk about um the twelve six eighteen rule, so they're
Speaker 1: basically pre pre pubescent puberty. UM. And you can start
Speaker 1: hormone blockers so it just gives you, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: slows down all your your developments so you have some
Speaker 1: more time. And then at sixteen you can start taking
Speaker 1: hormone replacement therapy. And then you know, like when we
Speaker 1: were explaining it to James, you know, I was like,
Speaker 1: that's when you can grow breasts if you want, and
Speaker 1: she was like, that sounds amazingly. Can I take it
Speaker 1: to you can get an augmentation? Yeah, I know, I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm I feel like I'm turning my back
Speaker 1: on my flat chest and sisters. And I did that,
Speaker 1: but um, okay, um that would man a joke. And
Speaker 1: I forgot my next question. So, so you've talked to
Speaker 1: James about it and she's like, yeah, let's do this.
Speaker 1: That's awesome, and she understands it because I'm like, I
Speaker 1: don't even I don't know what so and and you
Speaker 1: said sixteen first, twelve six, okay, so not for a
Speaker 1: couple of years. And now is does James see a therapist? Ye?
Speaker 1: And when? When? And why did you? I mean they
Speaker 1: kind of a parent, but like when did you decide?
Speaker 1: So we so that we've just had our second session,
Speaker 1: but again it was like this whole thing that was
Speaker 1: going on with school and what kind of prepping for that,
Speaker 1: and like, I don't know. She she is really bright,
Speaker 1: so she gets like on her test, but she won't
Speaker 1: do her work and so she's she I know that kid,
Speaker 1: like she is like holding back and so it really
Speaker 1: and we've tested her for all you know, whatever you
Speaker 1: can test her for dragging and hearing and eyesight and
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. So you know, they're the
Speaker 1: teachers just said she's just kind of plateau and or
Speaker 1: learning and she's not interested. And then she keeps telling
Speaker 1: us how much she hates school. So we got a
Speaker 1: psychotherapist for that who is lgbt Q, she identifies as queer.
Speaker 1: She is teaching a class tonight. Like I just really
Speaker 1: like like she's an in PAF, you know, and so
Speaker 1: she's I so far have really liked it, and you know,
Speaker 1: we did our first download last week and it was
Speaker 1: very revealing, you know. So it's kind of great because
Speaker 1: when you're the parent, you're so in it all the
Speaker 1: time and sometimes you're just trying to get the kid
Speaker 1: to get dressed on time to get to school. I WASNA,
Speaker 1: it's like that's a lot in your life. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's gotta you would feel I would feel dizzy, like
Speaker 1: just even thinking about like, oh, yeah, I gotta get
Speaker 1: the kid brushed, kids get to get dressed, all the
Speaker 1: stuff like brush your hair. Yeah. But but then at
Speaker 1: the same time, how about like making sure that if
Speaker 1: there's any like dysphoria, and how can we best guide
Speaker 1: her up into this life where maybe that is not
Speaker 1: a factor so much, you know, at her her age.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's always gonna be there, and I get that,
Speaker 1: but I hope to God, you know, like to whoever
Speaker 1: that it's like, what do you mean dysphoria? So dysphoria
Speaker 1: is when that sense of like not you're in your
Speaker 1: body and it's just not your body. So it's the
Speaker 1: cause of a lot of the suicide in the trans community. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they feel one way and then everyone's like, no,
Speaker 1: but that's not what you are. But I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: all the stuff, this is crazy. So I think that
Speaker 1: is a good way to free her up as to
Speaker 1: play therapy and you guys all to go as a family. No,
Speaker 1: just just her, just her Okay. And then do you
Speaker 1: guys go to a therapist to kind of help you
Speaker 1: through parenting or you kind of research on your own.
Speaker 1: We would go to a therapist to help us through
Speaker 1: each other. Okay, A couple of therapy is it's kind
Speaker 1: of you do you do? We have it in like
Speaker 1: a year and a half, but we do. We do
Speaker 1: a lot of personal work too, and we've done heavily
Speaker 1: some good Yeah, in the relationship. Has any of the
Speaker 1: work that you've had to do had to do with
Speaker 1: raising a trans child or separatation just like a family
Speaker 1: of origin bullshit that we all deal with. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah yea um, And I find it interesting have
Speaker 1: you ever had any conversations with the therapist or anyone
Speaker 1: about like, because it's the thing that confuses me about
Speaker 1: being trans is like, so I don't feel at home
Speaker 1: in this body, and then I'm a transition to kind
Speaker 1: of this this other societal structure of gender, um instead
Speaker 1: of just kind of like being like, well, I have
Speaker 1: a penis, but I like to wear dresses, like to
Speaker 1: just go to full your own female. So look, you
Speaker 1: guys look at like sixteen to twenty year olds right now.
Speaker 1: They're the most fluid people I've ever met and seen
Speaker 1: in my life. So I think that's a construct that's changing.
Speaker 1: And I love it, like I love seeing like I
Speaker 1: don't think they're like, I don't think everybody is flipping.
Speaker 1: I think there's like this fluid right that's out there.
Speaker 1: She's just really clear that she's a girl, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. So, but I've seen kids you know,
Speaker 1: like that are like back and forth all over the place.
Speaker 1: It's really interesting. That's cool. And then they're just being
Speaker 1: allowed to be themselves I think, so, which I hope
Speaker 1: so great. Yeah, Or they're taking it upon themselves to
Speaker 1: be themselves and then they're just defying like anybody who's
Speaker 1: saying like they're gonna have way better sex lives than
Speaker 1: we ever did. Yeah, I will spin. And I think
Speaker 1: of kids are talking more and it's really exciting. And
Speaker 1: they don't respend the bottle. I don't respend the botty.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. Has James ever expressed
Speaker 1: having a crush on anyone in her class? Or I
Speaker 1: don't want to get getting on people's personal business, So
Speaker 1: there's somebody in her class that has a little crush
Speaker 1: on her. Oh yeah, and then is that did that
Speaker 1: person express it to her? Well? So she's the cutest
Speaker 1: conversation I resish came home from school, came home from
Speaker 1: school one day and she's like, so what is that? Like?
Speaker 1: What does that mean when like somebody is like looking
Speaker 1: at you and they turned like all red? I was like, well,
Speaker 1: who did that? Because I've asked and passed like boys
Speaker 1: and girl. She's like, we're not talking about that now,
Speaker 1: you know, Like I guess not. You're five, ye are
Speaker 1: doing um? But she was like, yeah, so the boy
Speaker 1: that she told me and it was a boy and
Speaker 1: then and I was like, oh, well he likes you
Speaker 1: and she was like, well he can't because this other
Speaker 1: girl in my class likes him. And I'm like it
Speaker 1: really doesn't matter. He's always hanging around, you know. And
Speaker 1: that really is where I came up with like, Wow,
Speaker 1: we really are and like the next five years going
Speaker 1: to see what these friends that we have, what they're
Speaker 1: made of like, because I think I think people do
Speaker 1: want to do right, and they do want to be great,
Speaker 1: and they do want to be accepting until it happens
Speaker 1: to them of course, you know what I mean, and
Speaker 1: it's like then that whole nimbiism get, you know, like
Speaker 1: really like I think even I've known really liberal in
Speaker 1: her transitioning people that I'm really close to who are
Speaker 1: really liberal, who have been like pushed back a little bit. Well,
Speaker 1: oh it's just a phase or whatever, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. So maybe that's their version of trying to
Speaker 1: understand it, even though I think it's like to just
Speaker 1: go mindy business if you're going to talk about it,
Speaker 1: like or ask me what's going on, because I know mom. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: So yeah, there there have been a few flirtations happening.
Speaker 1: That's fun. I know, it's really cute. That's and and um,
Speaker 1: what about does James ever just is she ever interested
Speaker 1: in changing her name? You think or not? So we've
Speaker 1: brought up every once in a while. The first one
Speaker 1: was Alice May, who is a character from Scooby Doo,
Speaker 1: and was like, so you want me to like the
Speaker 1: zombie queen? Okay, and she's like yeah, totally, like all
Speaker 1: I know, right, And so then she kind of went
Speaker 1: by she just like, I really like my name and
Speaker 1: it was my dad's name, so I thought that was
Speaker 1: kind of cool. That's nice. Yeah, yeah. I mean I
Speaker 1: feel like names like Matt, like traditionally masculine names are
Speaker 1: it's very trendy to have a it's a cool name.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's also my boyfriend's name. I like, it's
Speaker 1: a good name. It's it's a little bit edgy first,
Speaker 1: I think, because it's formal, and then people are if
Speaker 1: you don't like got kind of thing, yeah, yeah, or
Speaker 1: Jim or yeah, yeah that's awesome. But hi, Punky, but
Speaker 1: I'm going to give her that. Yeah, you know, she
Speaker 1: wants to change it, she can change it, and that's
Speaker 1: entirely up to her. Yeah, that's You're so cool. You
Speaker 1: guys are so dope. Honestly, I wish I wish more. Apparently,
Speaker 1: I just don't want a dead kid. Yeah, yeah, do
Speaker 1: you think and you think about that a lot, like yeah,
Speaker 1: Like to me, that's one of those things where it's
Speaker 1: like the last I mean, and you hear about like
Speaker 1: supportive parents who still their kids still really you know,
Speaker 1: oh man, well unfortunately, I mean because the way the
Speaker 1: world around or yeah, or like the depression, you know,
Speaker 1: it's been bad even if you know for not trends,
Speaker 1: I mean the statistics we wrote about in our book
Speaker 1: are very high because I did a lot of research
Speaker 1: on young people and suicide statistics. It's also it's going
Speaker 1: because of the Internet. I really strong believe. I agree.
Speaker 1: I agree the pressure that they have it and you
Speaker 1: can the ability to compare yourself to anything. The Internet
Speaker 1: makes that possible all day, every day for seven in
Speaker 1: your face, Instagram, Twitter, everything, you're always and that those
Speaker 1: little tiny moments in your day where you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: and you're kind of seeing something bums you out a
Speaker 1: little bit, and then just collectively that adds up to like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, And I feel like we're in the
Speaker 1: middle of this mass experiment of like, let's see what
Speaker 1: phones are going to do to people. Maybe we'll be
Speaker 1: real fun. So yeah, that's just it's just nuts. Um
Speaker 1: some is James President on the internet anyway, Okay, she
Speaker 1: wants a YouTube channel for makeup tutorials and not gonna happen, right,
Speaker 1: And what happened when you you said that she you know,
Speaker 1: was presenting as male in school and now it was
Speaker 1: presenting as female. So what was there a conversation with
Speaker 1: the school, with the teachers, with the principal students, how
Speaker 1: did they go about handling that There again we're in
Speaker 1: like the Shangri Law. So so it's like, um, they
Speaker 1: were great. I mean it took me just so you
Speaker 1: guys know, we changes pronouns. We're going with it. She's
Speaker 1: really lit up about it. Great, she was, James really excited.
Speaker 1: When my god, it was like and it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's so funny. We interviewed. We interviewed Kate Bornstein.
Speaker 1: It was a trans woman who is uh. It was
Speaker 1: the most incredible of the most incredible conversations I've ever had.
Speaker 1: And she had transitioned much later in life because if
Speaker 1: her parents were so unaccepting and she did it after
Speaker 1: her friend. I have two trans friends who are trans
Speaker 1: women friends who and they talked about being poisoned by testosterone.
Speaker 1: Really wow, Oh my gosh because having to go through puberty. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Does Jeames know those friends? No? And that's so one
Speaker 1: of them lives in Chicago and one is in New
Speaker 1: York and Los Angeles. But I love so my friend
Speaker 1: yeahs And she's awesome. I mean, she's she transitioned later.
Speaker 1: So she's sixty eight, um, and she's married to this
Speaker 1: great guy and they're and you know, they're like fabulous
Speaker 1: she's like Moroccan and Sophia Lawrenny, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: like everything, and they're kind of fabulous and they're well traveled.
Speaker 1: And she she sat me down and she was like,
Speaker 1: do you have any trans friends in Colorado? Because she
Speaker 1: needs James needs to see you. So she has other
Speaker 1: trans friends. Like we're going to get to we get together, James.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Any any kids that any trans kids friends?
Speaker 1: They're all kids, Okay, adult friends. That's amazing. That's amazing.
Speaker 1: And it's it's like people, it's it's almost like the
Speaker 1: like when we were going back to the bathroom thing.
Speaker 1: It's like you just think one person in the world,
Speaker 1: there's what five trans people in the world. Just see
Speaker 1: the world as such a little place. But like the
Speaker 1: trans community is one of the only reason people are
Speaker 1: something crazy. Yeah, the statistic it's pretty it's high calm,
Speaker 1: you know. I Mean that's where I think, like, like
Speaker 1: that fluidity is I like that people are displaying the
Speaker 1: way that they feel confortable displaying right now, like these
Speaker 1: like young people right now, I have high hope and
Speaker 1: it's so and it's that's one of the reasons why
Speaker 1: I find that so exciting. Is because when you when
Speaker 1: you try and hide a part of yourself, or when
Speaker 1: the world tries to hide a part of who you are,
Speaker 1: that's not gonna end. It's just you're gonna explode and
Speaker 1: you're gonna It's like it's like with you know, back
Speaker 1: when the Catholic priests that that whole scandal with the
Speaker 1: Boston Globe was like, oh, Catholic priests, there is a problem.
Speaker 1: That's you to meet my mom, that's what I was told.
Speaker 1: That's right, and she's, oh my god, that's us here.
Speaker 1: So it's kind about that we should talk to her. Um,
Speaker 1: that's amazing. Um. But you know, and and in these
Speaker 1: communities where I'm like you, you go, you make all
Speaker 1: these strict rules for yourself, and you hide these parts
Speaker 1: of yourself, and of course it's gonna come back to
Speaker 1: it might manifest in something terrible, like that's one of
Speaker 1: the worst things that you can do to another person.
Speaker 1: And it's like you can't. You have to beat, you
Speaker 1: have to talk, and you have to be open about
Speaker 1: who you are, every inch of who you are, because
Speaker 1: otherwise it's just not it's just gonna it's gonna. I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's just gonna beat this like cancer as
Speaker 1: tumor and it's gonna I mean, you come to light
Speaker 1: so you can see, like evangelicals who are for Trump,
Speaker 1: it's so hypocritical, I know, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So it is just I don't know, it's a weird
Speaker 1: We're in a weird time, but I'm kind of liking
Speaker 1: what's happening. It's pretty cool. Yeah, and it's cool like
Speaker 1: just the black Swan and this administration is bonkers. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's and it's also cool. Like it's just I'm
Speaker 1: glad people are talking more and that the internet. The
Speaker 1: Internet sucks and the Internet is great at the same
Speaker 1: time because one of the things, like with the sexual
Speaker 1: assault and the B two stuff, and it's really exciting
Speaker 1: to see people go, you know what, this happened, and
Speaker 1: this is fucked up, but it's not okay because that
Speaker 1: they now people are talking about it and then are
Speaker 1: losing their jobs. Yeah, and that's amazing. It's because people
Speaker 1: are realizing that, yeah, you can't get away with that ship.
Speaker 1: It's exciting. Um, is there anything else do you think
Speaker 1: we haven't touched on, or any advice that you or
Speaker 1: anything you want to talk about. I have one more question,
Speaker 1: Anna say, I think asking him about being a dad? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: how how is that having being a dad? Well? I
Speaker 1: mean because I think because I think a lot of
Speaker 1: time it's men who have a hard time, you know,
Speaker 1: I would think I would think inationally, like if my dad,
Speaker 1: if my brother was trans, I don't know, my dad
Speaker 1: would be not accepting because he has this version of
Speaker 1: masculinity because he was drafted in the Navy. He was
Speaker 1: kind of beaten into him. He's just not he just
Speaker 1: wouldn't be accepting. He would be confused, but not in
Speaker 1: a way that's like, oh you just don't know kind
Speaker 1: of way that would be cool. He write like a
Speaker 1: poem about very in touch with so how yeah, how
Speaker 1: has that been for you? S guy? I don't you know,
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't even really think about it that much,
Speaker 1: which is maybe that's kind of weird. But um, you know,
Speaker 1: I think just being a dad, there's there's no challenges
Speaker 1: necessarily different than what any other dad has to go
Speaker 1: through and aranting and raising your kid, right, And wouldn't
Speaker 1: that be awesome if every dad thought they know, yeah,
Speaker 1: that would be um, but that's not reality because in
Speaker 1: your head you're just truly you're accepting of your kid,
Speaker 1: and you will have your kid. How could you not
Speaker 1: be right, like, at the end of the day, like,
Speaker 1: it's your kid, no matter who they are, what they do,
Speaker 1: what choices they make, those types of things, how could
Speaker 1: you not love them? And that's just where I came from.
Speaker 1: I was like, well, I don't understand this. I don't
Speaker 1: like you know thing. And you know, there's definitely I
Speaker 1: think there was a morning process there of going from
Speaker 1: like having a son to all of a sudden having
Speaker 1: a daughter and being the same person that you're going
Speaker 1: through that experience with, you know, so there's a little
Speaker 1: bit of a what I call a morning process in
Speaker 1: that where else you know, it definitely was sad and
Speaker 1: confused and like what do you do? But never never
Speaker 1: could I just like walk away or be like this
Speaker 1: and then you're not going to be a part of
Speaker 1: this and yeah, and then you know, you start googling
Speaker 1: what is transgender and like you said, you start reading
Speaker 1: those statistics and you know, and for me just being
Speaker 1: in such a place in my life where personal development
Speaker 1: is always like really really important. Um doesn't mean I'm
Speaker 1: always good at it, but you know, like, but it's
Speaker 1: always something that I think is really important that I'm
Speaker 1: always trying to strive for. I look at that and
Speaker 1: I'm like those statistics and I'm like, well, why are
Speaker 1: these statistics like that? And the thing that I could
Speaker 1: only really decipher through everything was the parents weren't supportive.
Speaker 1: The parents made that line, well, if you're not the
Speaker 1: way that I think you should be, you're not going
Speaker 1: to be my kid anymore kind of mentality. And that's
Speaker 1: just where I you know, through my own family of origins,
Speaker 1: stuff that I've had to deal with in my life. Um,
Speaker 1: you know what do you mean by that? Like, well,
Speaker 1: no struggle anymore, right, but you know, having different relationships
Speaker 1: I had. I had a dad with um and and
Speaker 1: then two moms and you know there's nine brothers and
Speaker 1: sisters from multiple different marriages on both sides, and you know,
Speaker 1: there was physical abuse, there was emotional abuse. You know,
Speaker 1: there there was a lot of those you know when
Speaker 1: I say family of origin, like, that's the ship that
Speaker 1: we had to deal with with our parents, right, the
Speaker 1: things that they did to us that are either making
Speaker 1: us better or worse people today, or the things you're
Speaker 1: still finding understanding and trying to turn the puzzle together,
Speaker 1: because what stuff happens to you when you're a kid
Speaker 1: and your parents do that or manipulative, emotionally physically abusive.
Speaker 1: It takes a second to figure out, oh wait, that
Speaker 1: was not normous. That that right, because you don't know,
Speaker 1: because you don't know, and you figure that out later
Speaker 1: through the relationships that you have, and um, you know.
Speaker 1: And I when I when looking at that, that was
Speaker 1: what I came away with, and I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: as long as she's confident, healthy and um independent and
Speaker 1: can take care of herself at some point in her life, right,
Speaker 1: those things are like what's really important. And so if
Speaker 1: my kids happy and confident, like I succeeded, Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I don't care how she is or what she chooses.
Speaker 1: She she could choose fourteen different ways of floating through
Speaker 1: this world at any given moment. I know I have. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I'm glad you talked about that state of like a
Speaker 1: little bit of morning because even somebody you can be accepting,
Speaker 1: you can be like whatever you know, be who you are,
Speaker 1: and I will support you every second of the way.
Speaker 1: But it's it's also really important to be honest about
Speaker 1: those moments because it doesn't make you weak. It's natural,
Speaker 1: it's normal. It would seem to me to be very
Speaker 1: much a part of the process and a part of
Speaker 1: the learning curve and a part of I think it
Speaker 1: would be weird if it wasn't. Yeah, I would too, like, wait,
Speaker 1: that's something's up, something you're hiding something, or something's weird.
Speaker 1: I don't know. And part of it is just knowing
Speaker 1: that your kid is going to have a more difficult life.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's even we're in the easy part. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's just that's that weighs on a person. Is
Speaker 1: James the first trans person you've met? Guy? Or no?
Speaker 1: Or no, I don't know you had transferends are just
Speaker 1: like new trans when I was when I was growing up, Like,
Speaker 1: one of my first jobs was at Pure One Importance,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, my favorite still have great coffee table. Next,
Speaker 1: my boss m was was gay and he seemed to
Speaker 1: hire a lot of people from his community, and one
Speaker 1: of one of the guys that he hired was transgender
Speaker 1: and male the female, male the female, and but he
Speaker 1: at that point in time was like presenting everything that way.
Speaker 1: But he wasn't willing to change the pronouns. Yet we
Speaker 1: had this huge talk in the middle of Pure One.
Speaker 1: Imports Brown to this with him and it was amazing. Fellows,
Speaker 1: What was the conversation about, Like the fact that he
Speaker 1: didn't want to change, that she didn't want to change. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know he didn't want there They were all friends,
Speaker 1: they all partied together, they all you know, and I'm
Speaker 1: like the seventeen year old and they're going, what Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: thought I was selling furniture is crazy more Pure One?
Speaker 1: Come on? Um? And uh, you know, so I was.
Speaker 1: I was in on that kind of conversation. I've always
Speaker 1: been if you're a great human, I want to be
Speaker 1: your friend. I don't care what your gender, color, right, religion,
Speaker 1: or anything is. UM. I can be pretty neutral on
Speaker 1: those things. Yeah, I wonder too. With with traditionally, you
Speaker 1: hear a lot of stories about fathers having problems when
Speaker 1: their kids is at the LGBT, j I A community,
Speaker 1: any of the any of the letters. And I wonder
Speaker 1: too if there's UM. I don't know if every trance
Speaker 1: kid shows has that um sense of self like James
Speaker 1: seems to have had always, Like most people don't have it.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say most cis people don't have it
Speaker 1: to themself, like, but I'm wondering too if like they
Speaker 1: don't even have the words to communicate that they feel
Speaker 1: different inside until later in life, and then the parents
Speaker 1: are already kind of said of like, this is who
Speaker 1: you are, this is the box that I've you've put
Speaker 1: yourself and I've put you in, and we continue to
Speaker 1: put your put you in and then maybe later in
Speaker 1: life all of a Suddener eighteen and there in up
Speaker 1: on there, Pa, I think that's I think that's one
Speaker 1: of those philosophical conversations that it's like, um, you know,
Speaker 1: one of my personal beliefs is that we all come
Speaker 1: into this world with that type of self knowledge, like
Speaker 1: we know who we are like the minute we take
Speaker 1: ours and it really is it's society. It is our parents,
Speaker 1: like they are the ones we are with the we're
Speaker 1: going to be forward and teaching that and implying that
Speaker 1: and you will like this, and you will go to
Speaker 1: this school and you will do this, and a lot
Speaker 1: of parents, I think, and it's not you know, it's
Speaker 1: not like we're all bad parents, but you know, because
Speaker 1: we're all doing the best we absolutely can with the
Speaker 1: best knowledge that we were downloaded with, and if we
Speaker 1: knew better, we would do better. But this is our
Speaker 1: what we're working from. And I think that it's somewhere
Speaker 1: in in that those first few weeks, months, years, that um,
Speaker 1: you know that those things are stripped away or other
Speaker 1: things are implanted over it, and we do as beings,
Speaker 1: we just kind of get lost in that. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: then sometimes there's comfort and conforming to something, so you
Speaker 1: kind of cling onto that. You want You're dad to
Speaker 1: be proud of you, or you're somebody so you're gonna
Speaker 1: do You're gonna say, you're gonna yeah, but really, I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna put on the dress of my dad I want, right,
Speaker 1: Some people are just more malleable than other people right now.
Speaker 1: Like literally, if you met me when I was six,
Speaker 1: I'm the same person. I think I just talked to
Speaker 1: more when I was saying yeah, but I would have
Speaker 1: loved to have yeah, like I was like either video
Speaker 1: of me in gymnastics past, just like pushing bitches out
Speaker 1: the way and like that. So the way I mean,
Speaker 1: I probably wouldn't physically push anyone, but my eyes I
Speaker 1: would push that. Well, that's funny, that's I was saying
Speaker 1: earlier about the videos that we had gotten digitized with
Speaker 1: me as a kid, and like, I feel like I learned.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I feel like more of a purer version
Speaker 1: of myself in those videos. And then you see all
Speaker 1: the ways that you kind of stripped it away a
Speaker 1: little as you got older, because you don't feel weird
Speaker 1: or feel out of place or feel and parents, I mean,
Speaker 1: phrasing a kid is is hard in and of itself,
Speaker 1: But then it seems though to me because I'm kind
Speaker 1: of on this personal quest of figuring out if I
Speaker 1: wanted a kid or not. And one of the things
Speaker 1: keeping me from that is just everyone gets sucked up
Speaker 1: with their parents. Everyone. You can't everyone, I know, Like
Speaker 1: I am I ever a perfectionist? Yeah? Okay yeah, and
Speaker 1: but but um but really, all you have to do
Speaker 1: is just let your kids figure out what they want
Speaker 1: to do, and then you, I love you. Your job
Speaker 1: is to build self esteem, yeah, and competent self esteem.
Speaker 1: That is the way to put it. That is our
Speaker 1: job as parents is to make sure that our kid
Speaker 1: has a good self esteem. Yeah. And how and and
Speaker 1: just and by how do you what do you would
Speaker 1: you recommend the best way to make sure your kid
Speaker 1: has a good sense of self esteem? Just what's that measure? Yeah, like,
Speaker 1: how do you how would you if a parent was like,
Speaker 1: how do I give my kid a good sense of
Speaker 1: self esteem? What would you say? I mean, I think
Speaker 1: you have to be I think it's probably like through
Speaker 1: the process, right, like just making present, listening, you know,
Speaker 1: like with your kids. And that's one does amazingly with her.
Speaker 1: She can be so present with her, Yeah, and kind
Speaker 1: of fires that. Yeah, but you could not and that,
Speaker 1: you know, but when you're present with her, your present
Speaker 1: with her, and that I think that builds. Get Actually,
Speaker 1: she gives me ship. If I'm on my phone too much,
Speaker 1: that's kind of nice. She's like, get off your phone.
Speaker 1: You're on it too much. Like, yeah, I don't want to,
Speaker 1: but I've always I always I'm like, man, I wish
Speaker 1: and you can't pick who your kid will be. But
Speaker 1: I'm like, man, I want to get older and wiser
Speaker 1: than me, like they all are in the begin Every
Speaker 1: single kid is so ethereal when they come out. It's
Speaker 1: the wildest thing. And accepting ye are smarter than us.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like this age of the best, this
Speaker 1: is this is the age where I think they get
Speaker 1: really like goes downhill, like seven years old, all this society,
Speaker 1: Like I'm not kiding, and I think it's like there's
Speaker 1: all sorts of studies saying that, like people are plastic
Speaker 1: up until seven and then it's just like that is
Speaker 1: who you are. But what if you I wasn't saying,
Speaker 1: like for the self esteem thing, like what if your
Speaker 1: kid has self esteem but they're a jackass and then
Speaker 1: you did not think so, so you have to like
Speaker 1: so it's right, what if they're a I mean kids,
Speaker 1: I think you have to really have boundaries. I mean, again,
Speaker 1: I am not a parenting expert, but I do have
Speaker 1: a thing where I'm like, I do not want to
Speaker 1: raise a narcissist. Yeah, and so what kind of boundaries
Speaker 1: do you set in your consequences? You know, like, hey,
Speaker 1: we asked you to do this thing, and there is
Speaker 1: a consequence, and you know, you know our boundaries, you
Speaker 1: know our limitations, you know. So I think there is
Speaker 1: respect that Yeah, and she's a triangulator because there's only
Speaker 1: one of her, she has zero competition. Oh gosh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. So she knows how to she knows how
Speaker 1: to like and we figured out that she knows how
Speaker 1: to get between the two of us. So now we
Speaker 1: can just shut it down right there. Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 1: I noticed my two year old nephew, will Well. I
Speaker 1: started to notice you would manipulate really and they would
Speaker 1: say like, but I want this, I don't give me
Speaker 1: that sad eye. Oh my god, Brantley, I said, no, Wow,
Speaker 1: he's learning that, Like it's hard. And that's another reason,
Speaker 1: like I would just give a kid whatever he wants,
Speaker 1: but the tractor being on the death Star. Yeah, yeah, screwed.
Speaker 1: I think those boundaries and and really and you have
Speaker 1: to commit to what you've said no to, yeah, and
Speaker 1: stick with it. Otherwise it's like, oh, I could play
Speaker 1: like a violence screwed. Well, how about boundaries? So obviously, James,
Speaker 1: you know, requires some special attention just because you're so
Speaker 1: we're still as a society kind of learning what it
Speaker 1: is to be trans. That there are trans people among us.
Speaker 1: There always have been, but now you can see them.
Speaker 1: So it's like, how do you put a boundary between
Speaker 1: treating someone special because they need it and treating them
Speaker 1: too special? And having the questions I actually that is
Speaker 1: a great question. And then we went directly to her
Speaker 1: teachers right away, because this was about three when it
Speaker 1: was you know, three or four when it was really happening,
Speaker 1: and at their conference, we said, we don't want we
Speaker 1: don't want to raise a narcissist, and so we need
Speaker 1: you to not treat her special. She's fine, she's fine,
Speaker 1: you know, And they got that, and luckily she had
Speaker 1: some great teachers the first three years who and even
Speaker 1: her current teacher who really are great with boundaries and
Speaker 1: they're kind of stern, you know, but like interesting to
Speaker 1: her the right you know. So it is, but that
Speaker 1: is the thing. Like it was like to go in
Speaker 1: right away and have that conversation with people, because again
Speaker 1: there was this kind of like vibe of like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is so cool, like people are letting her, and
Speaker 1: I was like, isn't about this? Isn't about cool? Like
Speaker 1: what we're dealing with right now is how do we
Speaker 1: kind of ease into being stealth. So it's not even
Speaker 1: a conversation, right, you know what I mean, it's like ideal, Right, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, so I think, or they're out and they're
Speaker 1: really great about it and they feel yeah and and
Speaker 1: just yeah, and and also just feeling like but also
Speaker 1: feeling that like this thing about me isn't doesn't it's
Speaker 1: not all of who I am, it's part of who
Speaker 1: I am. It's also and I'm not I don't wear
Speaker 1: it like a badge like I forget and talked about like, um,
Speaker 1: they did a joke about somebody in a wheelchair and
Speaker 1: there was a person in the wheelchair in the front row,
Speaker 1: and all the other people that weren't in a wheelchair
Speaker 1: are very offended in the person the wheelchair was like,
Speaker 1: I just want you to heck, make fun of me,
Speaker 1: dreat me like everybody else. I've stopped thinking that this
Speaker 1: is all I am. Yeah. Yeah, but so that type
Speaker 1: of specialness like that that makes you feel worse. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And she went through this thing last summer, the summer
Speaker 1: where she was telling everybody that she was trans like
Speaker 1: she was like really identifying with that was what, you know,
Speaker 1: because Avery Jackson had come out on the cover of
Speaker 1: National Geographic and she was just like, Wow, I want
Speaker 1: to meet her, and she is so cool and look
Speaker 1: at her. She looks like a queen, you know, like
Speaker 1: the way she's sitting there. And I think that was
Speaker 1: really great, especially because Avery was only nine when she
Speaker 1: did that, so she's young enough to you know, it's
Speaker 1: not a teenager like that young kid and like really
Speaker 1: and her mom is a huge spokesperson for the trans community,
Speaker 1: Debbie Jackson, and I think that was just one of
Speaker 1: those things where she saw, like how proud she was
Speaker 1: in that stance on that magazine cover was really cool.
Speaker 1: But I'm saying to have that as another kid to
Speaker 1: look up to and too, yeah, a prey, a pre
Speaker 1: pubescent kid. Yeah, that's awesome. Sometimes we just have to
Speaker 1: recognize where our kids are to you know, like some
Speaker 1: of some of them are. They came out ready to
Speaker 1: step onto the scene and can handle the pressure of
Speaker 1: a national geographic cover, and there are some kids who
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily their paths to be that spoken or whatever,
Speaker 1: you know, and like trans to be a transaction like that,
Speaker 1: that's huge. Yeah, I think that that is something that
Speaker 1: I think is right because it was like you do
Speaker 1: do that thing? You you? I mean I did. I
Speaker 1: was like, do we like have a big you know,
Speaker 1: I started not putting photos of her on Facebook because
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I was like, well that her
Speaker 1: agency is like to be able to put her photos.
Speaker 1: I mean they're on a lockdown, you know Instagram page,
Speaker 1: but you know it's yeah, as private as that's going
Speaker 1: to get. I guess because I think people are just like, well,
Speaker 1: if you're you know, at part of any minority, that
Speaker 1: you have to be spend your whole life working towards it.
Speaker 1: And it's just like, well, that's not true, because that's
Speaker 1: the only thing about you, Like you could just do
Speaker 1: whatever you want. You have the right to not fight
Speaker 1: through anybody else, Like it's okay, you don't have to
Speaker 1: be a martyr everything. It's exhausting and and some people
Speaker 1: are great at it and they love doing it, and
Speaker 1: that's part of those are the people we need to
Speaker 1: be more. I mean really activists straight there who doesn't
Speaker 1: have to just want to be microphone round it and
Speaker 1: just be them and show people that example of those
Speaker 1: being human. And I don't know, I think that they're
Speaker 1: I think Avery, I think Jazz Jennings. I was going
Speaker 1: to ask you about Jazz. I mean, I think she
Speaker 1: is you know, she put her life on the line
Speaker 1: right to be an advocate for all of us, and
Speaker 1: she is six. She's been good at seven. She's articulate,
Speaker 1: and I see, you know, maybe they fell into it.
Speaker 1: You know, over time it probably has changed. But like
Speaker 1: for her to be out there, like in the public
Speaker 1: eye like that on a cable station is wild, I
Speaker 1: mean wild, and it's going to be her whole goddamn life.
Speaker 1: And I don't I don't know that. I want her
Speaker 1: to have her own life, yeah, whatever that is, and
Speaker 1: she can choose to go that way if that's the
Speaker 1: thing too. She's like, no, I want to be on camera.
Speaker 1: I want to speak this out, like, all right, go forth,
Speaker 1: Like we will support that your choice, you know. But
Speaker 1: I think every individual has a choice and to be
Speaker 1: who they are, and at some point in our society
Speaker 1: and everyone takes up for you know. I think that
Speaker 1: so many people, like the typical, like the a lot
Speaker 1: of people take that for granted, and then they don't
Speaker 1: realize how good it does feel to be themselves and
Speaker 1: that they've been feeling that for the most of their lives.
Speaker 1: And then other people aren't afforded that by the folks
Speaker 1: around them, or the whole state around them, or their
Speaker 1: or their government. Um. Since James has been presenting as female,
Speaker 1: has she gone through kind of any more typical female
Speaker 1: problems like body comparison or not feeling pretty's the fattest.
Speaker 1: She's like always like, mom, your belly is looking really
Speaker 1: but have you seen her? I mean she's all arms
Speaker 1: and what it's like she is. So I think that
Speaker 1: is something that's coming up, like normal female like societal
Speaker 1: bullshit is totally there. And media, man, I mean, like
Speaker 1: going back to the Internet conversation, we had fashion magazines.
Speaker 1: You guys are a lot younger, but we had fashion magazines.
Speaker 1: You know, like it was like seventeen magazine for me
Speaker 1: and then and the TV did wasn't for teenagers really
Speaker 1: then like the tween thing came like around for you guys. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so um, so it is. It is interesting now
Speaker 1: because now it's I mean they have kids her age
Speaker 1: on YouTube doing makeup tutorial Oh yeah, I've seen them.
Speaker 1: I mean some of them are better contouring than night
Speaker 1: I mean going on here. Babies have Instagram, yea have Instagram. Jobs.
Speaker 1: Baby don't want to be on Instagram. They don't really
Speaker 1: just get the baby, and then I try to judge them,
Speaker 1: like I'm pretty sure you can't make that decisions. They
Speaker 1: have their face scanned by the time they're sixteen or whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we had a lot of autonomomy. You guys didn't write
Speaker 1: like you had cell phones already when you were But
Speaker 1: I need to Facebook until college. I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: have social media. College. I didn't have like camera phones
Speaker 1: and stuff like, oh yeah, we had camera phones, but
Speaker 1: no one's doing well. I guess people were doing weird
Speaker 1: things with them behind it nobody. Uh. I cried when
Speaker 1: my mom made me get a cell phone in high school. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't. I cried when my boss gave me a BlackBerry.
Speaker 1: A lot of crying because of technology, and I'm not
Speaker 1: a crier. I just don't. I like when I'm alone.
Speaker 1: I like to be alone. Yeah. I would have like
Speaker 1: totally recorded my entire seven hits of acid. Wait do
Speaker 1: you see that? I can't even let dancing gas? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I can't even would have been everywhere. I would never
Speaker 1: have gotten a job. Thank you guys so much for
Speaker 1: taking the time and sit down with us. We appreciate
Speaker 1: And UM, I just wanted to end on. Is there
Speaker 1: any anything you would say to parents, um that aren't
Speaker 1: as wonderful as two of you, because I can I
Speaker 1: guess that if it's if you're a parent who is
Speaker 1: confused or heartbroken or whatever. I started just reading the statistics, like,
Speaker 1: look at really what this person in your life is
Speaker 1: in for if you're not supportive of them, Because if
Speaker 1: you're willing to lose your child to suicide, then go
Speaker 1: ahead and be an asshole, you know, but I'm not.
Speaker 1: And so it's one of those things that I think
Speaker 1: that and I shouldn't say it's not being an asshole,
Speaker 1: but you know, like you really have got to this
Speaker 1: is it's nothing that you did, It's not you know,
Speaker 1: it's because I think that feeling of confusion. Well I'll
Speaker 1: talk like we're an asshole. If you kick your kid out, well, okay,
Speaker 1: dig deeper, because that's how I help. That's help. Anything
Speaker 1: totally probably gonna make it worse. But okay, why are
Speaker 1: you acting like that? This is the fearnfusion and fear.
Speaker 1: I would assume fear is a really really powerful thing.
Speaker 1: And I think that you know, get you have to
Speaker 1: really get over yourself and understand that you have a
Speaker 1: huge opportunity to save somebody's life. And and and if
Speaker 1: we all thought of parenting that way, right like, if
Speaker 1: with anybody, if this was our opportunity to to save
Speaker 1: this person's life, we would have been raised like in
Speaker 1: a totally different way, you know, and we're still going
Speaker 1: to make the mistakes that we make. She still says
Speaker 1: I hate you. She still says your jackass, you know,
Speaker 1: like she fights back. She's a strong, strong will kid.
Speaker 1: She's a strong willed kid and she always will be.
Speaker 1: She's gonna be a strong willed human. Lord Lord saved.
Speaker 1: The person who gets in front of her and like
Speaker 1: kisses her off, there's a look. Yeah, because having a
Speaker 1: kid is like it's like it's like grabbing a mystery
Speaker 1: bag at this store, Like you have to be prepared
Speaker 1: for whatever. You can't be prepared, yeah, or just go
Speaker 1: with prepared, like expect the unexpected kind of a thing,
Speaker 1: like just anything that you don't you don't know what
Speaker 1: it's gonna be. Like, there's no like kid class. There's
Speaker 1: there's like no you know, like hey, that's well, that's cool.
Speaker 1: But that should answer is that is that the monster thing?
Speaker 1: That's that's the goodness? What's up? Eight sheep? Your lifespan
Speaker 1: is as long as each sheet suppressing for shape? Man?
Speaker 1: Are you as long as those eight sheep? And um?
Speaker 1: I think the fun thing is like since we're not
Speaker 1: you're not comedians were not like promoting your instagrams or anything.
Speaker 1: Is there any organizations that, like, I know you said
Speaker 1: that becoming cool? Is that the entitled the book Becoming Them?
Speaker 1: And then how about organizations that you feel are great
Speaker 1: helpful have resources. There's one, but it's New York Locals,
Speaker 1: the New Alternatives. Yeah about that. Yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: always say, look to your local. Okay, your local so
Speaker 1: in Boulder, it's out Boulder. But look, I think I'm
Speaker 1: a big advocate of supporting your community and those and
Speaker 1: those kids. And you know, everybody has kids in their
Speaker 1: community who need help. Um, the a C l U
Speaker 1: have my card in my wallet. It Yeah, thank you both.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Jennifer, thank you Sky. I really appreciate that
Speaker 1: you guys are here in a snowstorm. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: snowy oh, thundering. We started it was lightning and then
Speaker 1: thunder and then rain new snow. Oh man, that's beautiful. Anyway, Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. This has been sounds weird to say, No, guys,
Speaker 1: sluct Shaming Podcast. We'll talk to you next Friday. Love you,
Speaker 1: I love you, I love you so girl, need you,
Speaker 1: need you you treat you for a bit of cheese.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Now for the course.
Speaker 1: If they gave you think I should know by now,
Speaker 1: get it, turn it into gold, put it all you thinking.
Speaker 1: Do cat top it out for it seems she's so
Speaker 1: easy to see it there, but no body ees. Since
Speaker 1: you underderstand a deed one mean I don't, I said,
Speaker 1: Well gone vera as you know it's a one and
Speaker 1: letting go. Time some time, get it on