Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie and this is Bridget, and you're
Speaker 1: listening to stuff I've never told you. Today, we have
Speaker 1: an update to one of the episodes that you and
Speaker 1: Emily did brigid um about where are the pockets? Um,
Speaker 1: ladies clothes? And this is a question that is near
Speaker 1: and dear to my heart. And um, I have a recent,
Speaker 1: a recent encounter with this very question. Yeah, because a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, I was invited to one of
Speaker 1: my best friends graduations and it was a bag free event.
Speaker 1: You could not have a bag, and um, it was
Speaker 1: outdoors in Atlanta, hot, muggy Atlanta heat for about three hours. Um,
Speaker 1: no shade. So I needed something lightweight to wear, uh,
Speaker 1: and something with pockets because I couldn't have a bag. Um.
Speaker 1: I demolished my closet looking for something that fits this
Speaker 1: bill anything. I was trying to get really creative with it.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe I can roll up these pants all
Speaker 1: the way like anything, anything with functional pockets, because of
Speaker 1: course I have a ton of clothes that have non
Speaker 1: working pockets, but I had I didn't have any I
Speaker 1: didn't have any options, so I went on Amazon typed
Speaker 1: in dress with pockets and had to expedite it, get
Speaker 1: get like delivery the next day, because I had no options.
Speaker 1: That is a real pocket dilemma, the pocket emergency. It was.
Speaker 1: I was furious. I was like doing the over the
Speaker 1: top thing you see in movies. Yeah, closed, plinging clothes
Speaker 1: over my shoulder, yes, like cursing loudly. Um. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: just I want pockets. We deserve pockets. We don't just
Speaker 1: want that, we deserve that. We do. And one of
Speaker 1: our listeners, Jennifer, sent us an article called what do
Speaker 1: women want Pockets? From the week earlier in June, looking
Speaker 1: into a study researchers published attempting to answer the question
Speaker 1: that is related, why do people carry their phones in
Speaker 1: their hands while walking? M Well, the author of that article,
Speaker 1: jenn Dall, was like, the because middle pockets, right? Um?
Speaker 1: She yeah, she thought to herself. Obviously I'm gonna hold
Speaker 1: my phone because I don't have pockets, and the purse
Speaker 1: is an untamed jungle. Who knows how deep the phone
Speaker 1: will go if you need it? Who knows if you'll
Speaker 1: be able to find it again in a timely manner,
Speaker 1: if at all? Um? But eventually, Jendall, she gave in
Speaker 1: and read the study wanting to know what in the
Speaker 1: world they could have found, and the researchers called this
Speaker 1: quote previously unobserved phenomenon phone walking, which they loosely defined
Speaker 1: is holding a phone for significant amounts of time without
Speaker 1: using it. One of the things they found, no surprise
Speaker 1: of Doll, was that men and women engage in this
Speaker 1: behavior at different rights. That's right. Of the over three
Speaker 1: thousand adults researchers observed, about two of them were phone walkers.
Speaker 1: But if you delve into the differences between the sexes,
Speaker 1: twenty percent of men were phone walkers compared to thirty
Speaker 1: percent of women, And the researchers had a lot of
Speaker 1: theories for why this could be. Women might be more
Speaker 1: dependent on their phones. Are they've got boyfriends who expect
Speaker 1: a speedy text response. Um, this was seriously a reason.
Speaker 1: These were all real reasons, um, or to lower the
Speaker 1: risk of their phone being stolen, or even that it
Speaker 1: is an indicator of relationship status. The phone walker may
Speaker 1: as well be wearing a wedding ring. Yeah, this was
Speaker 1: the reason they gave um. And this is why, in
Speaker 1: their opinion, couples aren't as often phone walkers. They don't
Speaker 1: have to display their relationship status by being on the
Speaker 1: phone because they're with the person. It couldn't be that
Speaker 1: it's rude to be on the phone when you're with someone.
Speaker 1: That's ridiculing any don't be ridiculous. That's yeah, that's I
Speaker 1: don't know what I'm even thinking. But they missed the
Speaker 1: obvious answer. In Doll's opinion and our opinion, I would say, Um,
Speaker 1: here's what she posted on Twitter and response quote researchers
Speaker 1: missed the point that women's clothing often doesn't have pockets
Speaker 1: and it's hard to find a phone in a bag.
Speaker 1: This is an all caps Yeah, of course it is
Speaker 1: because it's infuriating, right, um, and Twitter in response was like, yes,
Speaker 1: women's clothes kneed pockets. Give us pockets, actual functioning man
Speaker 1: sized pockets. We deserve, we do. I need to be
Speaker 1: able to go to a graduation without aving to special
Speaker 1: order address with pockets. That was like, my only just pockets,
Speaker 1: just pockets. But you found the dress I did. I'm
Speaker 1: glad it's got pineapples on it. But you shouldn't have
Speaker 1: to have that big of a dilemma justified address with
Speaker 1: frequent pockets. Nope. Uh. Doll in the article with this
Speaker 1: observation quote. Our phones have become a metaphor for the
Speaker 1: weight we carry as women in the society, a society
Speaker 1: in which we're saddled with a range of expectations, for example, motherhood,
Speaker 1: and yet not given the proper facilities or support in
Speaker 1: which to carry them out, for example, proper affordable health care.
Speaker 1: Isn't it about time we were given some bigger pockets?
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, hell yeah. So um. We hope that you
Speaker 1: enjoy this revisit of a past, a past favorite of ours.
Speaker 1: Where are women's pockets now? Today? I have a little
Speaker 1: bit of a personal gripe that this episode is based on,
Speaker 1: which is that I bought what I thought was a beautiful,
Speaker 1: beautiful skirt. I couldn't wait to try it on. It
Speaker 1: was pretty expensive, more money than I usually drop on
Speaker 1: an outfit I get at home. And it has those
Speaker 1: damn decorative pockets that aren't even really real pockets. Were
Speaker 1: they like the ones that are so shut they were
Speaker 1: just like not even give you a little dip and
Speaker 1: it's not you can't put anything in there. So they're
Speaker 1: just for fashion. They're just decorative decorative pockets. Decorative pockets,
Speaker 1: because God forbid, I have anything to carry a phone
Speaker 1: on a pencil or whatever, and I got me thinking,
Speaker 1: where the are the pockets on women's clothing? What is
Speaker 1: going on? Where did they go? Where did they go?
Speaker 1: And on the other side, I'm the kind of person
Speaker 1: who if I'm in the fitting room trying on a dress,
Speaker 1: especially formal dresses. I found this in more formal gowns especially,
Speaker 1: and I'm on the fence about it looks good fit's,
Speaker 1: good fabrics. Cool, Okay, I kind of like it, and
Speaker 1: then I realized as my hands go down the sort
Speaker 1: of waste of the gown itself, Oh my god, there
Speaker 1: are pockets in this dress. Instantly sold. Pockets are such
Speaker 1: a game changer. It's a total apparel game changer decision making,
Speaker 1: like absolutely going from the maybe category to the hell yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm bringing that home category. I don't feel like we're
Speaker 1: exaggerating the extreme pleasure that pockets on guard. It's real pockets,
Speaker 1: functional pockets give us. We're backpack love and women. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like we're without a good satchel
Speaker 1: on occasion. I'm not really a purse totor as much anymore.
Speaker 1: Since I discovered the love of a good formal backpack
Speaker 1: which you as a little plug for if you are
Speaker 1: a sporty gal, get yourself a polished backpack, a work backpack,
Speaker 1: and love. So, first of all, I get it. Yes,
Speaker 1: this is totally totally a first world problem. You might
Speaker 1: be thinking, you know, bridget of all the things going
Speaker 1: on in the world right now, pockets really, but listen
Speaker 1: to this. Fashion is actually political, right, like most things
Speaker 1: in this day and age. It's not just fashion. It's
Speaker 1: not just a skirt, it's not just a pocket. It's
Speaker 1: actually political and like many things, it does raise I
Speaker 1: think some interesting points about gender. Absolutely, and if you
Speaker 1: look at the consumer data, if you really think about
Speaker 1: the economics of fashion and apparel, women are the ones
Speaker 1: making those decisions in the fitting rooms more than men.
Speaker 1: Quite frankly, women are the biggest spenders when it comes
Speaker 1: to fashion. Women of every age group consistently outspend their
Speaker 1: male counterparts on apparel. According to the Sage Business Researcher.
Speaker 1: Back in two, the average annual expenditures when it comes
Speaker 1: to how much you're spending money on clothing peaked for
Speaker 1: both groups in the thirty five to forty four age range.
Speaker 1: Oh so I have more spending ahead, don't you women
Speaker 1: have a VEG shop any more, be shopping with the
Speaker 1: women spending fifte so one thousand, five hundred eighty one
Speaker 1: dollars a year and men spending nine d sixty one.
Speaker 1: Those are kind of big numbers. Are kind of big numbers.
Speaker 1: So women, women be shopping. We were the biggest consumers
Speaker 1: when it comes to fashion. We spend the most money.
Speaker 1: And that's why I think it's so frustrating that these
Speaker 1: retailers are still not giving us products that fit for
Speaker 1: our lives and are functional for our bodies. I think
Speaker 1: you see that in a whole different way when it
Speaker 1: comes to plus size women in the clothing options that
Speaker 1: are available to them. But even something as small as pockets,
Speaker 1: I think really demonstrates how this industry that is dominated
Speaker 1: by women consumers and should be giving us things that
Speaker 1: fit our lives and our needs, it's just really failing. Well,
Speaker 1: it's it's that fashion over function form, right, It's this
Speaker 1: decision someone is making that I think it's important for
Speaker 1: us that our clothes are fashionable. I think consumers care
Speaker 1: about fashion, but somebody is saying fashion is more important
Speaker 1: than function. Well, actually, Emily, a lot of experts out
Speaker 1: there would agree with you. One reason why people say
Speaker 1: that there are so few pockets of women's clothing is
Speaker 1: because mid range fashion that stuff like you and I
Speaker 1: are probably wearing a lot of you know, your gaps
Speaker 1: and your j cruse, those are actually dominated by male designers,
Speaker 1: and male designers are much more concerned with things like
Speaker 1: fit and drape than functionality. Over at the Atlantic, they
Speaker 1: interviewed Camilla Olsen, who is a creative director of a
Speaker 1: high tech fashion firm, and she says that there's inherent
Speaker 1: sexism within the industry that keeps things like pockets and
Speaker 1: other functional garments being standard in women's clothes. She goes
Speaker 1: on to say, Honestly, I believe the fashion industry is
Speaker 1: not helping women advance, and the lack of functional design
Speaker 1: for women is one example. We women know that clearly
Speaker 1: we need pockets to carry technology, and I think it's
Speaker 1: expected that we were going to carry a purse when
Speaker 1: we're working. We don't carry persons around a pocket. It's
Speaker 1: a reasonable thing, and so I think it's interesting how
Speaker 1: she makes this point that because of the heavy male
Speaker 1: dominated fashion industry, women aren't getting clothing that it's actually
Speaker 1: functional for us to live our lives. That's so sad.
Speaker 1: It seems like such a missed opportunity. And yet again,
Speaker 1: if you look at every industry, once you get to
Speaker 1: the top ranks, like the director ranks of pretty much
Speaker 1: every industry, you start to see women become fewer and
Speaker 1: farther between. And even though there are some notable exceptions,
Speaker 1: I think Jenna Lyons was a really noteworthy creative director
Speaker 1: who put Jaku on the map quite frankly in the odds, right, Um,
Speaker 1: it's so true that even in the female dominated spaces
Speaker 1: like retail, when you look at the creative directors who
Speaker 1: are wielding the most power, making the biggest decisions that
Speaker 1: influence the direction of design, they're still predominantly male. Yeah.
Speaker 1: What a mismatch between the audience that you're trying to
Speaker 1: serve and the decision makers. Because how can an industry
Speaker 1: that purports to serve women have so few women at
Speaker 1: the at the highest highest levels and get it so
Speaker 1: wrong when it comes to giving us things that we
Speaker 1: actually can use. I don't know, but it's I think
Speaker 1: it's yet another case for wide diversity and leadership is
Speaker 1: actually good for business. Definitely, do you wear a lot
Speaker 1: of J crew I don't own a single piece of Jakes.
Speaker 1: Here's my beef with J Crew. I used to love
Speaker 1: J Crew when it was cool, functional things that fit.
Speaker 1: Now I feel like I go in there and everything
Speaker 1: is like embellished. I'm like, how do I wash this?
Speaker 1: It will be like a shirt that has bedazzled stuff
Speaker 1: on it, and I'm like, how do I watch this?
Speaker 1: If my first thought whenever I pick up something from
Speaker 1: Anthropology or Jay Crew these days. Yeah, and you were
Speaker 1: not missing anything other than having clothes that are dirty
Speaker 1: forever in your closet because you can't wash them. I
Speaker 1: seem to recall a Fabrieze conversation we've out on there.
Speaker 1: There was a conversation and I'm sure that was a
Speaker 1: J Crew garment. So let's get this straight. Bridget doesn't
Speaker 1: wash her hoodies. She for breezes her hoodies, and Ergenes
Speaker 1: doesn't wash her jeans, and now all of your other
Speaker 1: garments from an Anthropology and banker, I'm not doing any laundry.
Speaker 1: But you're like, I'm piecing together, You're just not watching anything.
Speaker 1: I approved that message, girl. I know you know what
Speaker 1: I think I just thought of as we were planning
Speaker 1: for this episode. It didn't come up. But I'm going
Speaker 1: to sound like a walking talking ad for one of
Speaker 1: our sponsores right now. But how is the rental clothing
Speaker 1: industry changing this? Because I mean I looked at that number,
Speaker 1: fift dollars expenditure a year, and I'm like, get on
Speaker 1: that Littote bandwagon, right like clear the Litote sponsors our podcast,
Speaker 1: and I'm also where she gets that jacket. I've always
Speaker 1: tend to toe and Littote right now, But between rent
Speaker 1: the Runway and Litote and subscription rental services like that,
Speaker 1: do you never have to do launch you again? Well
Speaker 1: not even that I don't, Yes, because you can send
Speaker 1: your clothes back dirty, which is part of the perk.
Speaker 1: And furthermore, I don't spend. I don't buy clothes anymore.
Speaker 1: I just rent. I love it. Yeah, it's like Netflix
Speaker 1: for clothes. Yes, I like it anyway. So that's why
Speaker 1: I haven't stepped foot in an anthropology in a decade.
Speaker 1: At a certain point, I wonder if it's sort of
Speaker 1: we're going culturally, we're going less towards owning and more
Speaker 1: toward renting things like you know, why have a car
Speaker 1: where you can use lift? Why? You know it's it
Speaker 1: seems like that like we're heading towards that as a
Speaker 1: culture in some weird ways. Sharing economy for sure, and
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's a net positive for the environmental
Speaker 1: impact of clothing. Do you think people throw out tons
Speaker 1: of clothes all the time because this is like up cycling.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well, actually, Emily, the average American tosses out
Speaker 1: eighty two pounds of textile waste each year, which adds
Speaker 1: up to eleven million tons from just our country, just
Speaker 1: from America. That's a lot of clothing being thrown out. Wow.
Speaker 1: So I just I think the sharing economy can sort
Speaker 1: of be part and farcel with this minimalist movement, and
Speaker 1: I wonder how that will impact the way that designers
Speaker 1: are making clothing design decisions. I hope we'll see more pockets.
Speaker 1: Maybe I can have a small influence by just renting
Speaker 1: things with pockets, Like, it's very cool. You're doing your part.
Speaker 1: You're doing your part for pocket equality. I know. I
Speaker 1: wish I could show you all the jacket I'm wearing
Speaker 1: right now, got some deep pockets. It's got deep pockets,
Speaker 1: and it's super chic and functional and by the way,
Speaker 1: it's reversible. Yeah, Okay. If I'm a walking ad, I'm like,
Speaker 1: come on, sponsors, give us more. Oh my god. You
Speaker 1: know what look like right now that you ever watched
Speaker 1: The Fresh Prince how he turns his jacket inside out,
Speaker 1: his uniform jacket, That's exactly what's happening right now. It's
Speaker 1: got like a leather shoulder decals and now on the
Speaker 1: inside feels like this nice little like pad, like shoulder pad.
Speaker 1: It's cute. Right, this is now a jacket centric podcast. Sorry,
Speaker 1: they're like, what are you talking about? We can't see.
Speaker 1: We'll post. Okay, good, I'm ready. So it's interesting that
Speaker 1: you say that this minimalist sort of sharing economy cultural
Speaker 1: thing might be influencing our fashion. Another thing that has
Speaker 1: really been influential on whether or not garments of pockets
Speaker 1: is technology. So back when the ipe when six came out,
Speaker 1: you might remember, it's pretty pretty large, and most men's
Speaker 1: garments actually had pockets where you could put your iPhone in,
Speaker 1: but women's garments really didn't. And so when the iPhone
Speaker 1: came out, the new big one, a lot of people
Speaker 1: were like, yeah, like, I can't put this in my pocket.
Speaker 1: What am I gonna do? I'm gonna have to carry
Speaker 1: it in my hand or put it in my bag
Speaker 1: or whatever. And actually Mashable talked to five different fashion
Speaker 1: brands Levi's, l L, Bean, J Crew, American Eagle, and
Speaker 1: Lee to ask them if this new iPhone was going
Speaker 1: to have them adding bigger pockets to their women's garments.
Speaker 1: Most of them gave some kind of variation of maybe,
Speaker 1: we'll see, but for the most part the answer was
Speaker 1: a no. I wonder if they did, though, because I
Speaker 1: am a Gap Gene loyalist, because once I found a
Speaker 1: pair of jeans that actually fit my body, I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm done shopping around because this is hard. But I've
Speaker 1: split a few pairs of pockets like jeans in my
Speaker 1: time because I do have the Giant, Yeah, I have
Speaker 1: the Giant plus the six plus and the back. The
Speaker 1: front pocket is a non starter, right, it's not going
Speaker 1: in there. Not going in there. But I had a
Speaker 1: whole appear because I was shoving my Giant phone in
Speaker 1: my butt pocket and it definitely was not fitting. But
Speaker 1: I like forced it. Oh, don't force it, touche. I
Speaker 1: have since found that the Genes as of late, the
Speaker 1: ones I've bought in the last maybe three or four
Speaker 1: years have worked fine. I really do feel like putting
Speaker 1: an iPhone in your back pocket as a recipe for
Speaker 1: it falling into the toilet in a public race. So
Speaker 1: I'm I'm very skeptical about putting anything back there. Your
Speaker 1: case is gigantic. Yeah, I actually have the smaller version
Speaker 1: of the iPhone, but my huge, ostentatious phone case makes
Speaker 1: it impossible to put in any kind of pocket whatsoever. Now,
Speaker 1: it's not happening, not happening, But what would you say
Speaker 1: is in your pockets on average, like the functional garments
Speaker 1: with pockets, Like what might you find in a bridget
Speaker 1: Todd pocket. Well, I've actually kind of trained myself to
Speaker 1: not carry a lot of stuff if I don't have
Speaker 1: my backpack on me, so usually like I'll do debit card,
Speaker 1: I D chapstick keys, Like I'm a headphone so I'm
Speaker 1: down to the five staples I've travel like and headphones
Speaker 1: like the the earbuds can fit into the front pocket. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's good. I'm a chapstick person too. One of the
Speaker 1: things I think is kind of interesting is how the
Speaker 1: ability of men to be able to carry things like
Speaker 1: cell phones and women not really having that option for
Speaker 1: their pockets might play out in the workplace. The article
Speaker 1: that it's referenced from the Atlantic makes this point pretty sustinctly.
Speaker 1: They say a man can simply swipe up his keys
Speaker 1: and an iPhone on the way to a rendezvous with
Speaker 1: his coworkers and slip them back into his pocket. A
Speaker 1: woman on the way to that same meeting has to
Speaker 1: either carry those items in her hand or bring a
Speaker 1: whole purse with her, a definitive, silent sign that she
Speaker 1: is a woman. So what you're basically saying is that
Speaker 1: there's this added visual acknowledgement of gender differences, which we
Speaker 1: actually know if you look at the research on uh,
Speaker 1: there's some interesting research that's been done on perfumes. Perfumes
Speaker 1: that are especially feminine sort of just provide a little
Speaker 1: sensory reminder of your womanhood can backfire in interviews. Interesting,
Speaker 1: So even though it seems really small, like tiny detail,
Speaker 1: it can still sort of come up and weighs that
Speaker 1: you maybe you don't expect. Well, it sort of gives
Speaker 1: you this impression, oh, she's a girly girl, or the
Speaker 1: purse can be like what kind of purse is it? Is?
Speaker 1: She a kind of woman who has a nice purse
Speaker 1: that she takes care of, or like me, trashes every
Speaker 1: purse she's ever owned because I can't seem to keep
Speaker 1: any of my belongings in nice shape. And what does
Speaker 1: that say about her? It's just another way for people
Speaker 1: to judge you. Interesting. This is kind of a random anecdote,
Speaker 1: but I have a friend who is a military wife,
Speaker 1: and one of the things that she says of all
Speaker 1: the sort of hurtful, ridiculous stereotypes about military wives, one
Speaker 1: of them that I found the most curious was if
Speaker 1: she owns a coach bag, that means like that the
Speaker 1: stereotypes is that means something about what kind of military
Speaker 1: spouse that she is, which I found very unusual, like
Speaker 1: such a specific thing. Oh, because it plays into the
Speaker 1: fact that like military wives are just leeches benefits of
Speaker 1: like the governments exactly. So they say, like, if a
Speaker 1: woman has a coach bag and she's trying to you know,
Speaker 1: she's a military spouse, that means that she's yadd some
Speaker 1: some negative stereotype there. So it's interesting how these markers
Speaker 1: of femininity, even though they seem quite small or quite
Speaker 1: you know, like they're not big deals. Actually people can
Speaker 1: use them to make unfair assumptions about what kind of
Speaker 1: person you are exactly. Yeah, that's a good point. And
Speaker 1: I also, on the flip side, have bonded with many
Speaker 1: a strong, powerful, influential woman over purses. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like in our own company here, I
Speaker 1: was gonna say, is someone you're thinking of, Well, there's
Speaker 1: a certain someone in the higher highest ranks of leadership
Speaker 1: and how stuff works, who is a boss lady? All
Speaker 1: shout out to the fact that we've got women running things,
Speaker 1: running things that how stuff works, one of whom is
Speaker 1: like intimidating, lee, powerful and awesome. And I met her
Speaker 1: in a very formal boardroom like setting when I was
Speaker 1: just interviewing for this particular job and I'm trying my
Speaker 1: best to be impressive, in articulate and also humble and
Speaker 1: courteous and respectful all the same time. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: it was a pretty formal exchange until we met up
Speaker 1: again later in a less formal setting at the bar,
Speaker 1: and my ostentatious turquoise purse became the thing we bonded over.
Speaker 1: And now I'm like, oh, I'm in we got this.
Speaker 1: We got this relationship on lack and look at where
Speaker 1: we are now. Yeah, it seems like I worked out well.
Speaker 1: It didn't work out well. So it's just an interesting
Speaker 1: thing how in a male dominated space, your purse might
Speaker 1: be something that holds you back. But when you're when
Speaker 1: we have more women in leadership, maybe purses can. Like
Speaker 1: you and I've bonded over backpacks, Maybe purses can actually
Speaker 1: be a way to bond with one another. Well, it's
Speaker 1: interesting that you bring up purses because the history of
Speaker 1: the handbag actually has a lot to do with why
Speaker 1: the pockets on women's garments tend to be so sucky.
Speaker 1: And let's dive into that after this quick break and back. Now.
Speaker 1: I know that I've been complaining about pockets today, and
Speaker 1: maybe you've been complaining about the pockets on your garment,
Speaker 1: but women have actually been complaining about the lack of
Speaker 1: pockets on their clothing for quine of a long time.
Speaker 1: Back in nine o five, Charlotte pet Gilman wrote, one
Speaker 1: supremacy there is in men's clothing is adaptations of pockets.
Speaker 1: Showed this in The New York Times. She continues to say,
Speaker 1: women have from time to time carried bags, sometimes sewn in,
Speaker 1: sometimes tied on, sometimes brandished in the hand. But a
Speaker 1: bag is not a pocket, and she's rights. In nineteen
Speaker 1: fifty four, Christian Duor was quoted in the Spectator of
Speaker 1: saying men have pockets to keep things in women for decoration,
Speaker 1: because God forbid, I have an important thing to keep
Speaker 1: on my person. Well, it's just like it kind of
Speaker 1: reminds me of the biking episode, in which it is
Speaker 1: a very systematic discrepancy between it being socially acceptable for
Speaker 1: you to actually have the freedom that comes with riding
Speaker 1: a bike versus women who ride bikes like, oh, they
Speaker 1: could be up to anything. Well, you actually see a
Speaker 1: lot of that same idea playing out when it comes
Speaker 1: to the history of pockets and women. Totally. Back in
Speaker 1: the medieval era, most women had little bags or sort
Speaker 1: of satchels or purses tied around the waist. That eventually
Speaker 1: folks began sort of hiding their bags under petticoats, which
Speaker 1: was a discreet way to say I have things, Right,
Speaker 1: I'm a woman who owns stuff, and might you know,
Speaker 1: have whatever I damn well please in my pockets. But
Speaker 1: I wouldn't ever brandish those pockets basically in public, visible
Speaker 1: to all. That would make me a radical woman. And
Speaker 1: in the late seventeenth century, even when pockets became much
Speaker 1: more commonplace and sewed into men's clothing, women did not
Speaker 1: have built in pockets because that would have been taboo.
Speaker 1: So they continued to have these sort of tied on
Speaker 1: versions until the French Revolution really changed the game when
Speaker 1: wide skirts were out out with let them eat cake
Speaker 1: style of the French Revolution, and what became much more
Speaker 1: in vogue were skirts closer to the body, sort of
Speaker 1: less flamboyant really, so there was less room for pockets,
Speaker 1: so that whole pocket conversation became null and void for
Speaker 1: women who continued to carry the reticule, a small decorative
Speaker 1: purse instead of God forbid they should go out in
Speaker 1: public with pockets, because they would be outing themselves as
Speaker 1: a woman with things, maybe having things of her own.
Speaker 1: God heaven forbid you have to carry things and be
Speaker 1: a woman. But I love is that. In the eighteen hundreds,
Speaker 1: the Irrational Dress Society began pushing for women to abandon
Speaker 1: the stiffness. Of course, it's for looser clothes that had
Speaker 1: lots and lots of pockets. Radical radical, can you imagine?
Speaker 1: Founded in eighteen nine, the Rational Dress society called for
Speaker 1: women to dress for health, ditching corsets in favor of
Speaker 1: boneless days and bloomers, wearing loose trousers and adopting clothing
Speaker 1: that allowed for movement, especially bicycling. So it is connected,
Speaker 1: it is, it's very much connected. It's very much connected.
Speaker 1: An eight New York Times piece made this really really funny,
Speaker 1: maybe sort of tongue in cheek claim that civilization itself
Speaker 1: it's actually founded on pockets. They right, as we became
Speaker 1: more civilized, we need more pockets. No pocketless people have
Speaker 1: ever been great since pockets were invented. And the female
Speaker 1: sex cannot rival us while it is pocketless. So basically,
Speaker 1: this was like a very overt and clearly insecure male
Speaker 1: person saying, um, you know, let's keep women out of power.
Speaker 1: Let's not allow them to have pockets. I've often, and
Speaker 1: this is not a research point, it's just my own opinion.
Speaker 1: I've all think about that heels with the same way, Right,
Speaker 1: while women are tottering around on heels, we'll keep them well.
Speaker 1: Then used to wear heels all the time during the
Speaker 1: American Revolution, right, So if you think about it, men
Speaker 1: ditched heels. They kicked off the heels and women's heels
Speaker 1: got taller. I almost wonder if the men were like, Hey,
Speaker 1: we're having trouble getting from point A to point B
Speaker 1: on these heels. This is dumb. Let's wear regular shoes
Speaker 1: and then pressure women into wearing heels. Actually, I think
Speaker 1: that's the next episode, right, I think we have to
Speaker 1: do on that our how a tire got gendered, because
Speaker 1: think about it, like, did you know that for button
Speaker 1: up shirts, men's buttons are on one side and women's
Speaker 1: buttons are on the other. Like, there are so many
Speaker 1: weird little particulars about gendered clothing that have these fascinating histories.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, let's do more on that. I love that.
Speaker 1: So just bringing it back to pockets for a second,
Speaker 1: this idea of pockets for women was a total game
Speaker 1: changer for gun toten bike riding women, which I thought
Speaker 1: was amazing. Back in one designer of women's bicycle costumes,
Speaker 1: which were what they were called at the time, the
Speaker 1: things that these daring women who biked might actually wear
Speaker 1: even included pockets for pistols. Quote, not all of them
Speaker 1: want to carry a revolver, said the anonymous tailor, quoted
Speaker 1: by The New York Times at the time, but a
Speaker 1: large percentage do and make no bones about saying so.
Speaker 1: Even when they do not tell me why they want
Speaker 1: the pocket, they often betray their purpose by asking to
Speaker 1: have it lined with duck or leather. So basically, this
Speaker 1: tailor is like sewing in ducklined pockets for these women
Speaker 1: on bicycles to carry their hand guns with them. And
Speaker 1: you've got I mean, you've got to hand it to
Speaker 1: these pistol packing bike riding Turn of the century women
Speaker 1: in bloomers and split skirt suits because they're right to vote.
Speaker 1: You know, granted in the Nineteenth Amendment was still twenty
Speaker 1: six years away when these women were practicing their Second
Speaker 1: Amendment rights. Well, what I love about this is that
Speaker 1: it almost goes back to our episode about biking and
Speaker 1: that are all sort of connected to this idea of
Speaker 1: freedom where they can have free reigin men don't know
Speaker 1: what they're getting up to where they're going, and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm a woman that's got to carry and stuff to
Speaker 1: do when it coulis to be Yeah, and I've got
Speaker 1: pockets and you don't need to get to know what's
Speaker 1: inside of them exactly. It really comes down to being
Speaker 1: a symbol of freedom and mobility. Isn't it funny though,
Speaker 1: that like a pocket was considered so much more suspicious
Speaker 1: than a purse. What the hell? I'm not a gun owner,
Speaker 1: but I would imagine you'd be a lot more likely
Speaker 1: to put a gun in or boot. Yeah boot. Think
Speaker 1: about the West, you know the women of the West.
Speaker 1: They all are packing pistols and stockings. Sounds like our
Speaker 1: next episode. All I can think about right now are
Speaker 1: the women of West World, which we should we should
Speaker 1: unpack that series. I don't see they had a kshop
Speaker 1: on it. I'm obsessed. Okay, I got it. This is
Speaker 1: my next my next show. Okay, do so again. You
Speaker 1: have pockets playing out through all these different parts of
Speaker 1: history when it comes to women. Um, pockets were a big,
Speaker 1: big part of the suffragette movement down if you think
Speaker 1: about those white suffragette suits that are that our sisters
Speaker 1: used to wear a lot of times those head pockets.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ten, the New York Times had a headline
Speaker 1: that said Bundy of pockets in the suffragette suit. And
Speaker 1: it really makes the point that pockets is connected to
Speaker 1: voting or being someone that's interested in voting. The article
Speaker 1: goes on to say it has pockets of plenty, and
Speaker 1: it's exactly what you'd expect for a woman with polls
Speaker 1: on her mind. I love it. And they go on
Speaker 1: to say that it's all within sight and the things
Speaker 1: in her pockets would be easy to find even for
Speaker 1: the wearer. So I do you think it's funny that
Speaker 1: what's radical about that is like someone is daring to
Speaker 1: wear pockets in broad daylight and broad daylight, like what like,
Speaker 1: what are they doing? Right? You don't know, you don't
Speaker 1: know what she's up to. So if you want to
Speaker 1: pack a deep dive into the history of pockets, I
Speaker 1: definitely recommend this really long throw article un Racked. One
Speaker 1: of the points they made about pockets and the Suffragets
Speaker 1: is that there was a kind of anxiety around women
Speaker 1: that had pockets. They write this last bit about visible,
Speaker 1: straightforward pockets hints at all the lingering anxiety over women's clothing, privacy,
Speaker 1: and property. It's not merely that women will strut with
Speaker 1: their hands in their pockets on point to challenge men.
Speaker 1: It's that women's pockets could carry something secret, something private,
Speaker 1: something deadly. Yeah, you never thought about pockets as being
Speaker 1: this mysterious. I mean, we just carry simstick in ours,
Speaker 1: but you don't know what we got in there. You know.
Speaker 1: It makes me feel like I need to get some
Speaker 1: more edgy pocket filler. It. I'm like, maybe my chapstick
Speaker 1: is disappointing a little when when you think about that
Speaker 1: some women were expressly using pockets to carry guns, your
Speaker 1: chapstick seems a little bit wimpy, right, Not that we're saying,
Speaker 1: like a kidding, lock and load in your pockets, get ready, patriarchy,
Speaker 1: we should do an episode women in gun control always smokes,
Speaker 1: that's a good one. So I really like, it's interesting
Speaker 1: how something as small as pockets actually has this really
Speaker 1: dense political and gendered history. But you know, why don't
Speaker 1: we even think about women's clothing versus men's clothing in
Speaker 1: the first place. Let's talk more about that after this
Speaker 1: quick break and we're back talking about men's pockets versus
Speaker 1: women's pockets. But really, what's the big deal with gendered
Speaker 1: clothing anyway? Like, why do we have clothing that's this
Speaker 1: kind of way for men and this kind of way
Speaker 1: for women that doesn't seem to be the way that
Speaker 1: gender plays out, And so it's interesting that that's the
Speaker 1: way that it plays out when it comes to clothing.
Speaker 1: I mean, we've seen the rebellion on the toy aisle, right,
Speaker 1: We've seen how the Pink Barbie aisle and the Blue
Speaker 1: Boys toys I have become a thing of the past.
Speaker 1: And I love seeing that retailers are starting to question
Speaker 1: whether these strict binary sections for women's versus men's clothing
Speaker 1: really makes sense anymore. And I would I mean, I
Speaker 1: would argue that most of our listeners to identify as
Speaker 1: women shop in the women's department, and the question is like,
Speaker 1: should there be a women's department? Well, that's the thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, we know gender isn't a binary, so it
Speaker 1: seems like we should stop treating clothes like their binary.
Speaker 1: I actually do wear a lot of men's clothing because
Speaker 1: my style icons are probably James Dean and Pugsley Atoms
Speaker 1: from the Atoms and way sort of they had a
Speaker 1: kid and that kid wore a lot of black. Uh
Speaker 1: So yeah, I definitely am down with a little bit
Speaker 1: of you know, unisex clothing. But I think it's interesting
Speaker 1: how you see big retailers who can really be shaping
Speaker 1: how these industries think about gender and clothing, saying no,
Speaker 1: we're gonna move away from gendered things and have a
Speaker 1: more unisex vibe. Self Ridges, a high end department store
Speaker 1: in the UK, announced that it was getting rid of
Speaker 1: gendered floors and it would just have three floor a
Speaker 1: fashion merchandise together so that customers could shop according to
Speaker 1: their own self expression. And other high end designers like J.
Speaker 1: W Anderson, Rick Owens and rad Harani have championed gender
Speaker 1: neutral clothing and the approaches filtered down to the high
Speaker 1: street sort of H and M and Zara, which have
Speaker 1: both created non gendered ranges, which I think is really
Speaker 1: interesting because a androgynous style has always been a mainstay
Speaker 1: on the runway, right, I mean, you've even seen it
Speaker 1: more like on the runway these days. You've seen a
Speaker 1: lot of notable examples of people just having you know,
Speaker 1: more androgynous style, which I always thought was really cool,
Speaker 1: really cool. And I really think that the hipster moment
Speaker 1: was a turning point because hipster fashion, as cliche as
Speaker 1: it has become, that sort of Brooklyn beanie wearing hip
Speaker 1: look looks very identical when expressed by someone who identifies
Speaker 1: as a man versus a woman. And there was sort
Speaker 1: of this weird backlash I think when hipster style became
Speaker 1: more mainstream, which was that you've stolen the look of lesbians,
Speaker 1: or that you've stolen this look from like the game movement.
Speaker 1: And I wonder if like the mainstreaming of gender neutral
Speaker 1: dress is a co opting Oh that's fascinating of like
Speaker 1: LGBT style or is that a good thing? Is that
Speaker 1: a bad thing or is it just the thing that's happening.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, I will say that when so
Speaker 1: I came of age and like the scene ster hipster time,
Speaker 1: if you remember that time, it was the adds. So
Speaker 1: we were all dressing kind of weird, low slung jeans.
Speaker 1: But I remember when skinny jeans became a thing. My
Speaker 1: then boyfriend was wearing my jeans. We were just like staring.
Speaker 1: We were just like wearing each other's jeans, which I love. Yeah, Brad,
Speaker 1: and I still do that. I actually lent a guy
Speaker 1: a pair of jeans. I don't think I ever got
Speaker 1: those back. Well. I really hope that this pushed towards
Speaker 1: unisex and gender neutral clothing will get us the pocket
Speaker 1: equality we all know we all deserve, yes, because pockets
Speaker 1: are functional as they are fashionable. The idea of adding
Speaker 1: pockets to something for the look without the functionality makes
Speaker 1: me wanna tear my hair out. So I would rather
Speaker 1: see retailers justes chewing pockets altogether than adding a stupid
Speaker 1: decorative pocket just to create frustration and disappointment. In bridget
Speaker 1: Todd specifically, yeah, yeah, save you the trouble. But we
Speaker 1: all know. You know, when you try out a dress
Speaker 1: and it has really good, deep, functional pockets, it is
Speaker 1: the best. I love how Tracy Moore put it over
Speaker 1: at jez Bell And trust me, this is gonna sound
Speaker 1: like an exaggeration, but I don't believe it is, because
Speaker 1: this is how much I appreciate good pockets. Humor me.
Speaker 1: I want you to remember the last time you bought
Speaker 1: a piece of clothing with pockets, real ones, usable ones,
Speaker 1: ones that fit things like the standard night out keys, phone,
Speaker 1: I D lip gloss compact. It's a rare thing. No,
Speaker 1: maybe an a line dress or skirt, something vintage with
Speaker 1: a full bodied lower half, and the moment you discovered
Speaker 1: that not only was the fabric perfect, the fit amazing,
Speaker 1: but there were actual functioning pockets. Let me ask you
Speaker 1: was not the greatest moment of your life. Did it
Speaker 1: not add a skip to your step? Were you not
Speaker 1: astonished each time you reach down and slid your hands
Speaker 1: into the outrageously useful fabric compartment? When women complimented you
Speaker 1: on the outfit, did you not reveal to them with
Speaker 1: exclamatory glee that it also possessed something unexpected and lovely?
Speaker 1: And was that thing not pockets? I think that is
Speaker 1: so true because you're on the dance floor and someone's like,
Speaker 1: nice dress, and you're like, no, you don't understand this.
Speaker 1: This thing has pockets. It has pockets. You're like, check
Speaker 1: it out, like you don't even know how great this
Speaker 1: romper is. Girl, let me show you. Okay, pockets, full
Speaker 1: on pockets. It makes you want to empty them out
Speaker 1: and like turn them inside out. I got this many.
Speaker 1: I have had many a drunken night in a lady's
Speaker 1: room at a nightclub where I'm like, oh, you think
Speaker 1: this is a nice dress? Check nipped it out like
Speaker 1: it's like you're it's like the bass drop on. And
Speaker 1: they're always like they always get it women when it
Speaker 1: comes to pockets. Women always it. And then it becomes
Speaker 1: where did you get this we need this in my life. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's so true. It's bonding over pockets. Well, Smithy listeners,
Speaker 1: I hope that we just bonded our podcasts. I know
Speaker 1: you and I just bonded our pockets, But I want
Speaker 1: to hear from you. What has this experience been like
Speaker 1: in your own time? What do you think about the
Speaker 1: rise of non gender binary clothing being available? Do you
Speaker 1: have any feels when you put on the pants of
Speaker 1: your loved ones and it fits or doesn't fit, or
Speaker 1: what does that experience like for you? Do you wish
Speaker 1: you had more pockets all the time? Have pockets revolutionized
Speaker 1: your life? Tell us You can reach us on Instagram
Speaker 1: and tag us in all those pocket pictures at stuff
Speaker 1: mom Never Told You, tweeted us on Twitter at mom
Speaker 1: Stuff podcast, and send us a good old bass and
Speaker 1: email at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com.